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BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

beardedbruce 16 Jun 10 - 04:14 PM
Greg F. 16 Jun 10 - 04:40 PM
beardedbruce 16 Jun 10 - 04:48 PM
Emma B 16 Jun 10 - 05:00 PM
bobad 16 Jun 10 - 05:11 PM
mousethief 16 Jun 10 - 05:41 PM
Emma B 16 Jun 10 - 05:45 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 10 - 05:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 10 - 06:14 PM
CarolC 16 Jun 10 - 09:58 PM
CarolC 16 Jun 10 - 10:05 PM
CarolC 16 Jun 10 - 10:08 PM
CarolC 16 Jun 10 - 10:11 PM
CarolC 16 Jun 10 - 10:29 PM
CarolC 16 Jun 10 - 10:40 PM
CarolC 16 Jun 10 - 10:49 PM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 12:09 AM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 12:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 02:13 AM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 02:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 03:20 AM
Lox 17 Jun 10 - 04:33 AM
Lox 17 Jun 10 - 04:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 04:49 AM
Lox 17 Jun 10 - 04:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 04:51 AM
Lox 17 Jun 10 - 05:17 AM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 05:29 AM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 05:35 AM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 05:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 05:52 AM
Lox 17 Jun 10 - 05:58 AM
Lox 17 Jun 10 - 06:01 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Jun 10 - 06:03 AM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 06:06 AM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 06:09 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Jun 10 - 06:15 AM
Emma B 17 Jun 10 - 06:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 06:17 AM
Emma B 17 Jun 10 - 06:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 06:23 AM
Lox 17 Jun 10 - 06:31 AM
Lox 17 Jun 10 - 06:34 AM
Lox 17 Jun 10 - 06:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 06:43 AM
Emma B 17 Jun 10 - 06:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 06:57 AM
Lox 17 Jun 10 - 07:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 07:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 08:00 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 04:14 PM

Lox,

Did the UN issue a statement condemning Israel BEFORE there was any investigation?

Let me help you here- the answer is yes.



"First the sentence, THEN the trial"- I thought that was restricted to the Red Queen in "Alice...", but it seems that many here think that way.






Only those who have already condemned Israel can be trusted to be fair.

THAT is arrogance, my friend. The past record of the UN demonstrates that the verdict is ALWAYS determined by political points rather than factual evidence. If you do not see that from the decisions it has made, I will presume you are deluding yourself and not doing so on any other basis.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 04:40 PM

Israeli Supreme Court Justice Yaakov Turkel will head an independent commission

I'd feel a lot mor comfortable with Studs Terkel heading a TRULY independent commission instead of this put-up job. Unfortunately, he's not available.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 04:48 PM

GregF,

Just because I know you have trouble reading English, I'll repeat this part...

"The commission will also include two international observers: Nobel Peace Prize laureate Lord William David Trimble of Northern Ireland and Ken Watkin, former judge advocate general of the Canadian Armed Forces. Both men have extensive experience in the fields of military law and human rights."




What are you worried about, that the truth might be detemined, and it might not agree with what YOU want to believe happened?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 05:00 PM

"The (Israeli) government's efforts to avoid a thorough and credible investigation of the flotilla affair seem more and more like a farce."

"The conclusions of an ostensible probe are intended to justify retroactively the decision to blockade Gaza, to forcibly stop the Turkish aid flotilla in international waters and to use deadly force on the deck of the Mavi Marmara."

A headline from Gaza or the UN?

No, the above is an editorial from Israel's own Haaretz newspaper


Israel and the Goldstone report

Richard Goldstone is a South African former judge; one of several liberal judges who issued key rulings that undermined apartheid from within the system by tempering the worst effects of the country's racial laws.
Among other important rulings, Goldstone made the Group Areas Act – under which non-whites were banned from living in "whites only" areas – virtually unworkable by restricting evictions. As a result, prosecutions under the act virtually ceased

He headed the influential Goldstone Commission investigations into political violence in South Africa between 1991 and 1994.
His willingness to criticise all sides and discover the truth led to him being dubbed "perhaps the most trusted man, certainly the most trusted member of the white establishment" in South Africa.

Goldstone's work investigating violence led directly to him being nominated to serve as the first chief prosecutor of the United Nations (UN) International Criminal Tribunals for the former Yugoslavia and for Rwanda from August 1994 to September 1996.
He prosecuted a number of key war crimes suspects, notably the Bosnian Serb political and military leaders, Radovan Karadžiæ and Ratko Mladiæ.
On his return to South Africa he took up a seat on the newly-established Constitutional Court of South Africa, to which he had been nominated by President Nelson Mandela

In 2009 Goldstone led an independent fact-finding mission created by the UN Human Rights Council to investigate international human rights and humanitarian law violations related to the Gaza War.
The mission's findings that Israel and Hamas had both committed serious violations of the laws of war and acts that amounted to crimes against humanity, saying that the conflict dominated by Israel's military superiority had killed 1,400 Palestinians and caused widespread damage to properties in Gaza.

Israel decided in advance that "it seemed clear beyond any doubt that the initiative was motivated by a political agenda and not concern for human rights", and decided not to cooperate

The 547-page report was promptly and strongly denounced by Israel and the United States as biased against Israel.
Defense Minister Ehud Barak on lashed out against the Goldstone report, calling it "distorted, false, and irresponsible"
Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman said the report "has no legal, factual or ethical validity whatsoever."

In response Israel "asked a number of senior members of the Obama administration to assist in curbing the international fallout from the Goldstone Commission report released this week, which accuses Israel of committing war crimes in Gaza during Operation Cast Lead." - according to Haaretz


"Only those who have already condemned Israel can be trusted to be fair"
Oh please..............


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 05:11 PM

The sad state of 'human rights' organizations


By Gerald Steinberg, The Ottawa Citizen March 14, 2010 Comments (31)



The intense debate on the activities of government-funded groups like Rights & Democracy is an important and healthy development.

For many years, non-governmental organizations (NGOs) that use the language of human rights and other universal moral causes have been exempt from independent examination. Their activities and publications were usually accepted at face value, under the assumption that the officials involved are virtuous and unbiased. But, like other powerful political actors, NGOs need independent evaluation and constructive criticism to prevent abuse.

From this perspective, Sima Samar's article ("Why I Resigned from Rights & Democracy," March 8), which rejects the legitimacy of this debate, is very troubling. Recent events have revealed how some of the most influential human rights and humanitarian NGOs have become platforms for radical ideological advocacy that is inconsistent with the moral principles they claim to espouse. Unfortunately, Samar has joined other ideologues in attacking independent research and detailed analysis, including the work done by my organization -- NGO Monitor -- without bothering to examine the facts.

Examples of biased NGOs are not limited to Canadian groups involved with, and providing funds to, pro-Palestinian organisations. Recently, Amnesty International was found to have allied itself with Moazzam Begg, a well known jihadist and Taliban supporter. Gita Saghal, who was in charge of Amnesty's gender division, made her moral objections public but, instead of an independent evaluation, Amnesty suspended Saghal and sought to silence the criticism.

Similar problems have been exposed by NGO Monitor's systematic research into the activities of Human Rights Watch. The bias in HRW's Middle East and North Africa division is reflected in the consistently greater emphasis given to Israel compared to Saudi Arabia, Libya, Syria, and other chronic rights abusers. (Holding a fundraising dinner in Saudi Arabia to pay for more attacks against Israel was particularly absurd.)

HRW also mounted an intense campaign on behalf of Judge Richard Goldstone's report on the Gaza war, which repeats many of HRW's allegations targeting Israel. Many of these allegations came from "senior military analyst" Marc Garlasco, an obsessive collector of Nazi memorabilia who wrote that wearing an SS jacket is "cool." When this behaviour was exposed in September, HRW announced it was suspending Garlasco "pending an investigation."

But HRW has failed to provide any information regarding the investigation, if any, on the credibility of the "war crimes" claims in Garlasco's reports. And in response to all of this, HRW founder Robert Bernstein has denounced his own organization for its distorted agenda, including efforts "to turn Israel into a pariah state."

Canadian NGOs, including Rights & Democracy, are not immune from the widespread ideological distortion of human rights. In her op-ed, Samar excluded details regarding the two Palestinian organizations, Al Mezan and Al Haq, which received grants during her tenure. Al Haq was an active participant in the notorious NGO Forum of the 2001 Durban conference that adopted the strategy of using human rights and boycotts for political warfare against Israel. Director Shawan Jabarin was described by the Israeli Supreme Court as a "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, a human rights defender by day and a terrorist by night." Jabarin's association with the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine has also led the government of Jordan to bar his entry. (HRW, which, as noted, has its own problems with credibility and bias, is one of Jabarin's vocal defenders.)

Similarly, Gaza-based Al Mezan's core political agenda is reflected in its clearly one-sided reports, which consistently erase the context of Palestinian terror while delegitimizing Israeli self-defense. During the Gaza conflict, Al Mezan made numerous false allegations designed for propaganda purposes, such as "Israeli massacres," "slaughtering civilians," "scandalous war crimes," and "despicable disregard to civilian life." But the extensive Hamas use of human shields and rocket attacks against Israeli civilians, each one of which was a war crime, was not condemned.

Given this clear bias, there is no justification for the expenditure of taxpayer funds to support Al Haq, Al Mezan and similar groups. And the problem is not limited to Palestinian groups -- NGOs exhibit biases regarding the conflicts in Sri Lanka, Colombia, and Central Africa.

In many cases, NGOs tend to reinforce the moral failures of the United Nations Human Rights Council, whose meetings are often chaired by Libya, Iran, and other human rights "stalwarts." Such diversion and exploitation of the principles of universal human rights has done immeasurable damage.

Canada has the opportunity to set an important example in restoring the universal foundations of human rights and international justice. This will require the ability to reject the radical ideologies that have targeted democracies rather than serial human rights abusers. By restoring the moral agenda, and ending secretive practices and political biases in government-funded organisations like Rights & Democracy, Canada is taking an important step in the right direction.

Gerald Steinberg, a professor of political science at Bar-Ilan University in Israel, is president of NGO Monitor.
© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 05:41 PM

Gerald Steinberg, a professor of political science at Bar-Ilan University in Israel, is president of NGO Monitor.

Totally unbiased.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 05:45 PM

The reason the Haaretz editorial is opposed to the panel is that it has decided in advance not to consider what decision-making procedures were followed in the run-up to the attack
It will not be allowed to directly question the soldiers who took over the ships but will have to rely on summaries from an internal investigation headed by an Israeli general

Instead Israeli Prime Minister wants the panel to examine "whether Israel's Gaza blockade and the flotilla's interception conformed with international law and also investigate the actions taken by the convoy's organisers and participants."

According to the Israeli daily Haaretz, Judge Tirkel was opposed to bringing in foreign observers however, to give some veneer of credibility Netanyahu and the Americans have agreed on the appointment of Northern Ireland's Lord David Trimble and Ken Watkin, a former Canadian judge advocate general, to sit as observers in the inquiry.
Neither of the two men will have any voting rights nor any other ability to influence the inquiry in any way.

Doubts can be raised about the lack of impartiality, on Lord Trimble's part The Conservative peer recently joined an international "Friends of Israel" group set up by Dore Gold, a close associate of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.



Asked about the inquiry on Good Morning Ulster, Deputy First Minister Martin McGuiness quipped

                   "Sounds like another Widgery"


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 05:47 PM

OK Lox.
I am happy to accept that the boat video is a fake if you like.
I do not understand the motive of the Israelis, and it holds no evidence relevant to our discussion.

Your comments about the "blood" are ridiculous.
It was pre helicopter and all he had to do was go up and sniff it.
And that is no doubt what he did.
Then he poses, kneeling, in front of the blood smiling and saying it is paintball, not live ammunition.
Then he speaks in nowegian, then we get the laser from the helicopter.

It is absurd to imagine that he would simply ignore the blood of the first martyr, if that was what is was, without even a comment.

And Lox, do you believe that the "murder" video was someone whose body has never been found, or even missed?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 06:14 PM

Espen Goffeng, a Norwegian, said: ''I looked over the rail and saw the zodiacs. It seemed hopeless for the Israelis - they tried to lock-on their grappling hooks, but they were hit by the fire hoses and their own projectiles going back to them.''

He wondered if the boats had been a decoy to draw passengers to the rails while helicopters were used to land Israeli commandos higher in the ship


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 09:58 PM

"Then, in a scene edited out of the versions Carol supplied, the camera team investigate, laugh, and say it is paint."

WHAT!!?? You mean the peace activists might resort to PROPAGANDA????
(presenting only information that supports their side)


The part where the camera team say it's paint was not edited out of any of the different versions I saw, by the way. You guys are just saying it was to make the people who put the video out look bad. It's in all of the different versions.

But that still doesn't make them right. They had already seen paint from paint balls that had been fired at the ship. They were not in an area where anyone had already been shot. They are unaware that the Israelis are using live ammunition. Everyone's first inclination on the ship (according to their testimony) was to not believe that the Israelis were using live ammunition. Their first impulse is to believe that the substance is paint.   It's an honest mistake for them to make. But the problem is that paint fired from paint guns doesn't behave in that way.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 10:05 PM

It's not that I'm not making any sense, beardedbruce, it's that you're not using your brain.

Israel and the complicit corporate media in the US (and several hasbara people right here in this thread) keep saying that the reason for the blockade is to keep weapons out of Gaza. All of the ships of the last flotilla, including the Mavi Marmara and the Rachel Corrie, volunteered to be inspected by a neutral third party like the UN. Since the government of Israel turned down that offer, it proves that weapons are not the reason they are imposing the blockade. We can prove now that at least one ship, the Rachel Corrie, did make that offer, and we have proof that Israel turned it down (because they didn't allow the Rachel Corrie to proceed to Gaza). So their claim that the blockade is to keep weapons out has been proven to be a lie.

Now don't you just feel foolish for accusing me of not making any sense? (If you don't, you should.)


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 10:08 PM

I've been without internet for most of the day. I don't know how long it's going to take me to read all of the posts since I was online last night and answer any questions or comments directed at me (I never got caught up earlier today with the ones posted since then).

I will say this, though, Keith. It's not me who needs to open their mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 10:11 PM

I don't know all of the details, but it looks like there are now at least three different Jewish human rights organizations that will be participating in a future flotilla, and at least two boats carrying their members. Needless to say, this will continue and it will keep getting bigger and bigger until the blockade is ended...


http://www.ajjp.org/jewishboat

"The movement to break the blockade of Gaza is "unstoppable and unsinkable" said Naomi Klein, member of the Advisory Board of the Free Gaza Movement, in a powerful statement at a demonstration in Toronto on May 31.

Building on the momentum and global outrage over the Israeli attack on the Gaza Freedom Flotilla, an international coalition of Jewish organizations working for justice in Palestine will sponsor a Jewish Boat to Gaza this summer, with AJJP as its U.S. coordinator.

AJJP joins the "Jüdische Stimme" ('Jewish Voice' for a Just Peace in the Near East and Jews for Justice For Palestinians (UK) in sending the boat as a call to the leaders of the world to help Israel find her way to reason, to a sense of humanity and a life without fear.

The participants on the boat will be chosen by its European organizers. In coordination with the medical, educational and mental health services in Gaza, the boat will take school bags and books, donated by German schoolchildren; musical instruments and art materials to support the Gaza Community Mental Health Program; nets and tackle for fishermen; and essential medicines and small medical equipment for the civilian population under siege. Absolutely no weapons will be on board, and all participants will be trained in the principles of non-violence."


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 10:29 PM

A circular splatter will only occur if the paintball ( with whatever content) impacts on THAT surface- if it impacted on a person, the excess would spray off in various patterns- dependent on the volume and the viscosity of the fluid.

When paintball paint impacts a person, it sticks to the person. That's what it does. There is no excess and it doesn't spray off. It sticks to people. That's its job. Paintball pellets don't hold very much paint.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 10:40 PM

Carol, if you are still claiming that passengers are missing you should name them or provide some corroboration.

I keep seeing reports from people who participated in the flotilla saying that there are still missing people. The nurses who were on board and who were tending the wounded said they saw more than 9 dead bodies. Many of the aid groups are saying that there are 6 people missing. I have not seen any reports in the last couple of days, but if the people they said were missing had been accounted for, I would expect them to make an announcement. They are very good about keeping us informed about what's going on. But I'll ask around and see if anyone knows if everyone has been accounted for.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 10:49 PM

"The commission will also include two international observers: Nobel Peace Prize laureate Lord William David Trimble of Northern Ireland and Ken Watkin, former judge advocate general of the Canadian Armed Forces. Both men have extensive experience in the fields of military law and human rights."

They're just there for show. They aren't being given any authority to actually do anything.

Thankfully, the UN is going to conduct its own investigation as it did for the Gaza massacre.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 12:09 AM

More on the Jewish flotillas

http://mondoweiss.net/2010/06/transatlantic-jewish-coalition-set-to-break-the-siege-of-gaza.html


"Within days after the attack on the Mavi Marmara, European activists announced a Jewish Boat to sail in July from an undisclosed location in the Mediterranean, attempting to break the siege imposed by Israel in 2006. The boat is sponsored by a coalition of international Jewish organizations dedicated to peace with justice in Israel/Palestine, including the ''Jüdische Stimme'' ('Jewish Voice' for a Just Peace in the Near East), along with European Jews for a Just Peace in the Near East (EJJP) and Jews for Justice For Palestinians (UK). American Jews for a Just Peace (AJJP) will serve as the U.S. Coordinator, creating a transatlantic partnership. The small boat's cargo will include school books, medicines and medical equipment.

Why a Jewish boat? Lots of reasons. The universal values contained in the ethical tradition of Judaism don't include 'Do unto others as was done unto us.' For Jews to publicly confront the Israeli government's policies of occupation, apartheid, and siege on a world stage highlights the political nature of the conflict and discredits those who insist on framing it strictly in ethnic and/or religious terms. I like best the answer from Glyn Secker, the Jewish Boat's captain, a British Jew, and longtime activist with Jews for Justice for Palestinians in the UK: "As Jews we should stand as a beacon for human rights, not as an internationally known perpetrator of atrocities."

These may be reasons enough for us to pour our hearts and souls, as well as the contents of our pockets, into supporting this effort. And imagine telling our grandchildren that in response to Israel's stranglehold on 1.5 million Palestinian people in Gaza, and in solidarity with the international movement, we sent a boat of Jewish activists to break the blockade. For additional information and to make a contribution, go to: www.ajjp.org/jewishboat."


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 12:42 AM

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/UK/Amnesty-says-Israeli-flotilla-probe-lacks-transparency/articleshow/6052258.cms

LONDON: Amnesty International criticised on Tuesday Israel's planned internal probe of the deadly raid on a Gaza aid flotilla, saying it would lack transparency and was unlikely to ensure accountability.

The Israeli committee, which will include two foreign observers, was formed to conduct an investigation into the legal aspects of the May 31 operation in which commandos killed nine Turkish activists and wounded many more.

"The format of this government-appointed commission represents a disappointment and a missed opportunity," Malcolm Smart, Amnesty's director for the Middle East and North Africa, said in a statement.

"The commission looks to be neither independent nor sufficiently transparent, the two international observers may be denied access to crucial information and the commission's findings may not be used in future prosecutions," Smart said.

The panel will be headed by retired supreme court judge Yaakov Tirkel, and will include Nobel Peace Prize winner David Trimble from Northern Ireland and Ken Watkin, former judge advocate general of the Canadian armed forces.

But it was not clear what powers Trimble and Watkin would have. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office said they would not able "to vote in relation to the proceedings and conclusions of the commission."

The two could also be denied access to information if it was "almost certain to cause substantial harm to national security or to the state's foreign relations."

"The processes of the commission must be open, transparent and allow access to all information sources," said Smart. "It should not allow the political considerations of the Israeli government to determine which of its findings are made public."

Israel is facing mounting pressure to end the blockade on Gaza, imposed in 2006 after Gaza militants seized an Israeli soldier in a cross-border raid.

Commenting on that, Smart said the "creation of this commission must not distract attention from Israel's continuing blockade of Gaza, which Israel must lift immediately. The Israeli authorities' closure of Gaza constitutes collective punishment and is in clear violation of the Israel's legal obligations as the occupying power."


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 02:13 AM

Carol, I hope these are mistakes and not dishonesty.
The two versions of the "blood" scene you posted, 10thJune 2.24pm and 8.11pm DID both have the scene deleted where it is identified as paint.
You changed your mind about it being blood not paint because, you said, of the improved video quality.
The video quality is just as good on the first version.

You just said " Their first impulse is to believe that the substance is paint."
Not true. They keep saying "blood" very loudly (in all versions!).

No rational person could see the whole sequence and believe it is blood.
It makes you and Lox look ridiculous, and I am happy to leave it there.

One last question on the "blood". What happened to the victim? Why was the victim not brought down for treatment like all the others?
We would have noticed because it was well before the landings.
The first to come were the two soldiers, then wounded activists later.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 02:54 AM

Keith, they don't keep saying "blood" loudly. The one guy asks if it's blood, and people say, "what?" and he has to repeat himself several times (more loudly each time) because they can't hear him. You're right that the part where the one guy answers him is not in the ones I posted. I saw that part in a different video and thought it was in the ones I posted. However, the guy who answers doesn't say it's blood. What he says is that he "thinks they're firing some kind of paint ball stuff". He doesn't examine the substance. He just says that this is what he thinks they are firing. He's doing exactly what I said he was doing. He's making an assumption based on something he's seen in a different context. He had some awareness that paint balls were being fired, so he assumed that the red stuff he was looking at was from paint balls. At that point in time, he is unaware of what's going on in other parts of the ship.

We have numerous passenger reports that the Israelis started firing live rounds before they boarded the ship. We can see blood dripping down from an open hatch. We know that the Israeli government has lie about many of the things they have reported about the flotilla and it's participants. This is proven fact. We have every reason to disbelieve what the Israelis tell us, and no reason at all to disbelieve the passengers who report live fire prior to the Israelis boarding. And you can't explain that red substance dripping down from the hatch as being paint from paint pellets. There's too much of it, and it's not behaving like paint from paintball guns.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 03:20 AM

"And you can't explain that red substance dripping down from the hatch as being paint from paint pellets"

Espen Goffeng did, and he had chance to look at it, touch it and smell it!


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 04:33 AM

"It was pre helicopter and all he had to do was go up and sniff it.
And that is no doubt what he did.
Then he poses, kneeling, in front of the blood smiling and saying it is paintball, not live ammunition."

Eh? ... He was a good 15 feet away from the Ladder - the camera is pointing away from the ladder to him where he is kneeling, and the fluid is pouring down from the top of the ladder ... How could he be kneeling down sniffing it? ...

You present as creative an interpretation of what the video shows as I could possibly imagine.


"I am happy to accept that the boat video is a fake if you like."

What I like has nothing to do with it.


"Espen Goffeng, a Norwegian, said: ''I looked over the rail and saw the zodiacs. It seemed hopeless for the Israelis - they tried to lock-on their grappling hooks, but they were hit by the fire hoses and their own projectiles going back to them.''"

Where can I find this?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 04:43 AM

As an amusing aside, I can't help but be amused that David Trimble, who has spent his entire political career clarifying that he is British and not Irish, should be sold to us now as an "Irish Nobel Peace Laureate".


BB,

If Israel is to be trusted, why won't they let an independant investigation happen?

Why won't they even allow their own investigation to investigate properly.

The rules of the Israeli investigation effectively give the IDF immunity.

What a waste of time.

Its a cover up and the IDF and the Israeli government have something to hide.

Witholding information is admissable as evidence of having something to hide in court.

Israel has somnething to hide.

No amount of accusing the whole world of being Israel haters can get them out of that one.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 04:49 AM

You can find the quote here, so we know that if the Israelis did fake that clip, they created an accurate reconstruction of the actual event.
But that would be so silly, wouldn't it!
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/world/in-their-wake-20100605-xl3e.html?feed=html

The blood video.
Lox, the question is repeatedly and loudly asked.
"BLOOD?"
There is a break in recording.
He appears smiling, standing and then kneeling to let us see, and tells us it is paintball.

But you and Carol know better?!


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 04:51 AM

Carol,

You gave the following respons to BB,

"All of the ships of the last flotilla, including the Mavi Marmara and the Rachel Corrie, volunteered to be inspected by a neutral third party like the UN. Since the government of Israel turned down that offer, it proves that weapons are not the reason they are imposing the blockade."

On reflection, it would seem that the reason may be that the UN is unanimous in its hatred of Israel.

It follows that the UN can't be trusted to make sure arms don't get in to Gaza.

Or another way of looking at that might be to say that the UN would have been compplicit in the provision of arms to Gazans.

The UN (a forum in which all the countries of the world meet to discuss global issues) is just against Israel and thats that.

I'm guessing all those resolutions aren't legitimate for that reason.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 04:51 AM

And..
you have to ask why they took the trouble to edit out that 15 second sequence.

If not in order to create a lie, why else?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 05:17 AM

"you have to ask why they took the trouble to edit out that 15 second sequence."

Good question.

It was counterpruductive to do so, and in the end proved unnecessary.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 05:29 AM

"And you can't explain that red substance dripping down from the hatch as being paint from paint pellets"

Espen Goffeng did, and he had chance to look at it, touch it and smell it!


No he didn't. He just said that that's what he thought they were firing. He never said that he had checked it out and found it to be paint. He said "I think they're firing some paintball looking stuff". He says "I think". Not, "I know", or even "I believe". And he doesn't address the actual stuff on the wall, but only what he thinks they're firing. He's making an assumption based on prior information gleaned in a different context. Had he checked it out and found it to be paint, he would have said, "No, it's paint." Or maybe, "I checked it out, and it feels and smells like paint". But he didn't do that.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 05:35 AM

their own projectiles going back to them.''

This is exactly what I said was happening, and you said I was wrong. I said they were lobbing the stun grenades back at them, and you said I was wrong. If you want to accept this guy's version of events, you have to concede that I was not wrong.

I don't dispute the fire hose thing, though. The passengers testify that they were using fire hoses on the zodiacs. But if the Israelis don't want to be soaked with a fire hose, all they have to do is get out of range of them. That's not at all hard to do. They don't have to fire live ammunition to defend themselves from water from fire hoses. Especially since they weren't even on the ship when the fire hoses were being trained on them.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 05:43 AM

Keith, the full version of that video was shown at the UN by the woman who was responsible for making it. She released a series of short versions before she showed it at the UN. Each one had a different amount of footage in it. She didn't try to conceal anything, however, because if she had, you would never have seen that segment that you're talking about. She was the one who released it, and that's why your buddies had access to it. Had she wanted to conceal it, you would never have seen it.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 05:52 AM

That 15 seconds could not have been their favorite bit if they chose to delete it from some versions.
He did not bother to tell us how he knew it was paint, but it is simply not believable that he would not make sure that it was not blood.

How are you getting on with the "missing" ?

This answer from American activist aboard might help.

JUAN GONZALEZ: Have you unidentified who those missing are?

IARA LEE: Obviously, we cannot jump to conclusions, but they are not hurt, they are not injured, they are not killed. They disappeared. I don't know. It's something that must be investigated. I mean, some people even speculate that we had spies, so maybe some of these missing people were, you know, Mossad agents. We don't know. We need to investigate. Were they thrown off the boat?

If they are not killed, your "murder" video lied both about the victim, and even that it showed a killing at all.

Both sides lie Carol.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 05:58 AM

"He did not bother to tell us how he knew it was paint, but it is simply not believable that he would not make sure that it was not blood."

It is simply not believable to expect a guy who is in the middle of a siege, surrounded by boats firing projectiles, with a helicopter overhead emitting a lazer sight spot light, at 5am, surrounded by frightened people, to start sniffing blood and examining it in detail.

If I was in that situation, I would be alert first and foremost to my own safety, and after that, as a reporter, to the surrounding activity, which you must admit kieth served as a distraction to the analyisi of the red liquid.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:01 AM

On the subject of Espen, we need not speculate for long as I've e-mailed him to ask him about that moment.

I suspect he's quite busy so you may have to be patient.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:03 AM

""( gelitin, margerine, etc are used as base materials for some explosives)""

They are also foodstuffs used to prevent starvation. And tell me how you think cement fits into any weapons scenario. Maybe they're making it into cannon balls?

Ther are a couple of points being obscured by all this back and forth about trivia.

1. An act of piracy did take place in international waters, and had it been committed by any organisation other than the Israeli Defence Force, not one voice would have been raised in trying to defend the action.

2. Those on board of the ship which was attacked by armed men, tried to defend against the incursion (as was their legal right), using only such weapons as came to hand. They were obviously not spoiling for a fight, or one might have expected them to be better armed.

3. Of those defenders, eight died of multiple wounds, inflicted at short range, by nine millimetre sidearms, and one was shot in the head with a round commonly used in shotguns.

4. None of the attackers were killed. Even when the defenders managed to acquire handguns from them, these were discarded without being used.

None of the above suggests that the defenders were doing any more than defending their vessel against government sponsored pirates.

I don't much care for Hamas, but it is only a political faction, and collective punisment for all citizens of Gaza is clearly forbidden under international law.

Israel is, and for a long time has been, flouting that law.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:06 AM

That 15 seconds could not have been their favorite bit if they chose to delete it from some versions.
He did not bother to tell us how he knew it was paint, but it is simply not believable that he would not make sure that it was not blood.


They deleted a lot of stuff from the short versions. They deleted a lot of stuff that was completely neutral, too, like journalists typing into their computers. You're barking up the wrong tree with that one. They edited for length, not content. Everything was released. Had the Israelis not confiscated the rest of her footage, she would release that, too. And speaking of that, once again, it's the Israelis who are concealing footage. They are refusing to release all of the footage that they have confiscated (what they didn't destroy). So if concealment is a sign of guilt, then I think we can safely say that the Israelis are already convicted.

How are you getting on with the "missing" ?

This answer from American activist aboard might help.

JUAN GONZALEZ: Have you unidentified who those missing are?

IARA LEE: Obviously, we cannot jump to conclusions, but they are not hurt, they are not injured, they are not killed. They disappeared. I don't know. It's something that must be investigated. I mean, some people even speculate that we had spies, so maybe some of these missing people were, you know, Mossad agents. We don't know. We need to investigate. Were they thrown off the boat?

If they are not killed, your "murder" video lied both about the victim, and even that it showed a killing at all.


I guess we'll have to wait to find out. I have not tried to contact anyone yet, and I might not have time until much later today. But like I said, the nurses, and many other people report that there were more than nine bodies.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:09 AM

He did not bother to tell us how he knew it was paint, but it is simply not believable that he would not make sure that it was not blood.

Except that he didn't tell us he knew it was paint. He never said that at all. He said, "I think they're firing some kind of paintball looking stuff". You're just flagrantly making stuff up now, Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:15 AM

""I am convinced that the commission's uncovering of the facts will prove that the goals and actions of the state of Israel and the IDF were appropriate defensive actions in accordance with the highest international standards," said Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.""

So we can be certain that there is no intention to pre-empt the inquiry's findings, and of course no bias on the part of Mr Netanyahu.......NOT!

Israel's whitewash budget is already overstretched.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:17 AM

"There are a couple of points being obscured by all this back and forth about trivia"

Absolutely Don - in fact it almost seems a deliberate ploy to tie people up by having to deflect from their main points by continually having to address what are basically distractionary details as if in some way any small inconsistency by someone caught up in the panic of an armed attack negates your summary of the main issues


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:17 AM

That was in answer to the question, "Is it blood?"
BLOOD?
BLOOD?
BLOOD?

It is paint ball. Not live ammunition.
I think he would have made something of it had it been blood.
Expressed outrage.Concern. Something.
Had there been blood at that stage he would have mentioned it in the interviews he gave later.
There was no blood then.
None of the activists are saying there was blood there, just happy to let people believe it and not show the few seconds that make it clear.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:19 AM

I rest my case!


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:23 AM

Emma, when the first fire and casualties happened is not trivial to this discussion.
The meaning of the deleted 15 seconds seems obvious to me but Carol and Lox keep challenging it.
Otherwise we might have moved on.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:31 AM

"I think he would have made something of it had it been blood."

No, I think he would have taken cover and had his eyes and ears open for what might happen next.

I have an amusing image in my head of a ship full of pancking activists at 5am in the morning, surrounded by a hostile Navy who are firing weapons that may or may not be paintball guns (as far as they know without the benefit of hindsight), hiding from a machine guns lazer spotlight, and scared that there may be a chance that they could be killed, and in the middle of it all stands Keith oblivious to all that but declaring (not sure to whom) that this is absolutely outrageous whilst sniffing the ladder to inspect the chemical composition of the fluid on it.

How very British.

And not actually very amusing at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:34 AM

The insignificance of the deleted 15 seconds seems obvious to me but Keith keeps going on about it.
Otherwise we might have moved on.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:37 AM

Kieth,

Do you know what the difference is between the visdeo we are discussing and the videos covered up by the IDF?


Neither do I - because the Ones Covered up by the IDF were ... um ... covered up.

Unlike the one we are discussing.

Nothing was concealed, so you have no point to argue.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:43 AM

You both look ridiculous in your denials of the obvious.
I will leave it at that, at least until we get the translation I have requested.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:46 AM

"Emma, when the first fire and casualties happened is not trivial to this discussion"

Keith, if you look back over this long thread you will see many instances where you have made similar challenges to information in my posts as to substantial evidence both from eyewitnesses and one of the soldiers themselves about where the first fire came from which I have addressed in each instance although you continued to repeat the same refuted statements from the initial attempts to blame the victims for their deaths

and......

you are still doing this!

and now on the Saville report thread too!

Please may we move on there are important issues and it is gratifying to see that at least one outcome of this attack is the international attention and approbation that has pressurized Israel to allow more humanitarian aid through to the beseiged beleaguered Gazan population.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:57 AM

I am sorry Emma, but I will not accept uncorroborated witness statements from either side.
Both sides lie.
I have only argued from the evidence.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 07:07 AM

"You both look ridiculous in your denials of the obvious."

Not as ridiculous as you do making stuff up that isn't even in that 15 second gap, let alone the rest of the video, or indeed in your attempt to describe a video on general worldwide release as being in any way concealed.

He doesn't sniff the blood, He doesn't kneel anywhere near the blood, he's wondering whats going to happen, and its on a video that has been published openly for the whole world to see.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 07:45 AM

I did not say that we see that.
I say that it is what anyone would have done.
Anyone here can watch the clip and know who is being ridiculous.

Carol, you said that the full sequence was shown to the UN.
Here is Iara Lee on Democracy Today with the footage she is about to show UN.
Some of it is shown. She says twice that it is "raw, uncensored footage."
We see the "blood" sequence, with the 15 seconds deleted.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:00 AM

sorry, here.
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/10/exclusive_journalist_smuggles_out_video_of


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