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BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

Lox 17 Jun 10 - 08:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 08:27 AM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 08:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 08:50 AM
Lox 17 Jun 10 - 08:56 AM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 08:59 AM
Lox 17 Jun 10 - 09:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 09:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 09:34 AM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 09:40 AM
Lox 17 Jun 10 - 09:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 09:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 09:50 AM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 09:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 10:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 11:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 11:26 AM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 12:10 PM
beardedbruce 17 Jun 10 - 12:30 PM
beardedbruce 17 Jun 10 - 12:43 PM
beardedbruce 17 Jun 10 - 12:46 PM
mousethief 17 Jun 10 - 02:07 PM
Greg F. 17 Jun 10 - 02:18 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 02:57 PM
beardedbruce 17 Jun 10 - 03:06 PM
Lox 17 Jun 10 - 04:40 PM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 05:24 PM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM
Lox 17 Jun 10 - 05:45 PM
Greg F. 17 Jun 10 - 06:10 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Jun 10 - 07:16 PM
Stringsinger 17 Jun 10 - 08:00 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 10 - 05:08 AM
Lox 18 Jun 10 - 09:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 10 - 09:31 AM
CarolC 18 Jun 10 - 11:22 AM
CarolC 18 Jun 10 - 11:23 AM
CarolC 18 Jun 10 - 11:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 10 - 12:02 PM
CarolC 18 Jun 10 - 12:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 10 - 12:51 PM
Paul Burke 18 Jun 10 - 09:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jun 10 - 02:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jun 10 - 06:51 AM
mousethief 19 Jun 10 - 12:07 PM
Ed T 19 Jun 10 - 02:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jun 10 - 01:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jun 10 - 08:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jun 10 - 05:04 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 10 - 05:15 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:22 AM

"I say that it is what anyone would have done."

Sure - very reasonable - unless its 5am and you are surrounded by armed boats and helicopters and scared passengers with a machine gun sight shining on the deck next to you and you are uneasy about what is going to happen next or whether anyone has been killed or is about to be killed, in which case you would look around and watch your back much like the guy in the video.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:27 AM

The laser is not seen until after the sequence.
People are seen casually walking and standing around on the deck throughout the sequence and into the laser sequence.

You are making an arse of yourself now.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:43 AM

You're wasting my time, Keith. You're making shit up and wasting my time. I look forward to the results of the UN investigation. I also look forward to all of the many future flotillas and aid convoys, and the eventual end of the siege. The people you are defending have already lost. They just haven't figured it out yet. They will before too much longer.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:50 AM

I CHALLENGE AND DEFY YOU TO PRODUCE ONE SINGLE THING THAT I HAVE MADE UP.

I have argued solely from video evidence and authentic quotes.
You have just realised that it is obvious who is producing shit.
About time.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:56 AM

Keith,


This is a conversation between scared people trying to figure out what is going on.

Big guy - "Is this blood?"

(Camera Looking at the ladder)

Norwegian - "I think they're only using paintballs"

(Camera Looking at the norwegian photographer who is looking around whilst taking cover before commenting into camera in his own language)

Big Guy - "ha ha - well heres the real thing" drawing attention to lazer sight.

(Camera points at the lazer sight.)

This within 15 seconds (or so you have stated)


You are either trolling or deliberately lying.


Either way, every poit you have made has been shot down in flames.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:59 AM

Keith, you keep saying that the Norwegian photographer said that he knows that it's not blood. He never said any such thing. You are making it up.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 09:14 AM

Keith,

"Then he poses, kneeling, in front of the blood smiling and saying it is paintball, not live ammunition."

Made up.


"Why was the victim not brought down for treatment like all the others?"

How do you know this assertion to be true?

Made up.


"he had chance to look at it, touch it and smell it!"

But he didn't - he lso had the chance to get his guitar out and sing a song - he didn't do that either.

Made up.


"People are seen casually walking and standing around on the deck throughout the sequence"

Made up.


Thanks for the link to the Quote from the Norwegian by the way,

You seem to have left this bit out:

'The first ammunition I heard striking the ship sounded like paint balls,'' Goffeng said. ''But some people said there had to be glass in them, because of the wounds they caused. There was a lot of blood in the stairwells and then the sound of the ammunition hitting metal changed again - I decided that was the live ammunition. People were yelling, 'Live ammo! Live ammo!'''

Note:

"There was a lot of blood in the stairwells"

Neither you nor I know which stairwells he is talkng about yet, but he hasn't talked about wounded being carried downstairs, so that would suggest the blood isn't coming from them ...

I'm sure your imagination will conjure up a story to explain it all.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 09:22 AM

My statement is based on firm evidence.
If he even THOUGHT it might be blood he would have said so.
He says he thinks it is paintball and does not change his opinion.
That is the evidence for my statement.

Carol, you have falsely claimed that,
Your links were to versions that included the 15 seconds.
False.
You said the video quality was so much better on your second link that it made you change your mind about it being paint.
False
You said that the full sequence was given to UN.
False
You claim that a number of activists are missing.
False.
You claimed that you linked to a video that showed the murder of a named individual.
False.
You claimed that it could show the murder of a missing individual.
False


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 09:34 AM

He does kneel, infront of a box smeared with red and close enough to smell if it is wet paint.
True.
We know he was not brought down for treatment because of the live feed video and others that showed no one brought down before the soldiers.
True.
He did have every chance to touch and smell it. There is a break in recording, and he stands and kneels within sniffing distance of some.
True.
People are seen casually walking and standing about. Anyone can check and see if I made it up.
True.
In fuller versions of the stairwell quote, the statement is linked to the description of injured being carried down the stairs for treatment. That is why he says "stairwell" not "ladder" or "bulkhead" or "deck."


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 09:40 AM

Like I said, Keith, you're wasting my time. You can stay with your supremacist friends there in the dust of history.   I've got some new flotillas and a UN investigation to start focusing my attention on now. History is marching forward and it's leaving you behind. You and people like you will be remembered by history in the same way those who came to the defense of jim crow in the US South are and the way people who came to the defense of apartheid in South Africa are remembered.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 09:45 AM

I'm gonna take e break from tis for a while - its way too time consuming.

I will conclude though by pointing out that in this alleged two sided argument, only one side represents a unified front.

The other side is a collection of people from all walks of life and many different countries.

The testimony of The Israelis has been shown to be false in numerous instances.

The evidence provided by the israelis has been shown to have been faked.

The unified single voiced Israeli side has been discredited and offered inconsistent evidence.

The other "side" isn't actually a side at all.

They were not one group united by any flag or other label.

They were a collection of varous groups and individuals.

Yet their testimony is consistent and NONE of the evidence contradicts it.

That many unconnected witnesses, all giving the same testimony is powerful EVIDENCE.

For reasonabe doubt to be cast on it, there would need to be some very hard contradictory evidence.

There is none.

The evidence that exists may not prove some of the allegations, but it is consistent with the testimony of the passengers.

BB seems to think that its a case of Israel against the world.

Keith seems to be following him into that corner.

The Israeli government refuse to allow scrutiny.

The passengers have handed over ALL their evidence.


Somneone is telling lies and hiding the truth.

And that someone is the government of Israel and its military.

Have fun folks - I'm off.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 09:46 AM

Carol, I have defended neither side.
I have only challenged unsupported assertions.

Lox,
"People were shot on the deck where I was too," he told the news conference. "It is difficult to talk about. I saw people who had been shot in the head, and some were carrying a dead man. There was blood in the stairwell."
http://gazaflotillasurvivors.posterous.com/tag/norwegian

People being shot on his deck puts the event later in time.
Dead and injured were carried down the stairs inside, not down a ladder on deck.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 09:50 AM

"The passengers have handed over ALL their evidence."

We have seen that they too edit the evidence.
I suspect that the uploading to Youtube of the full version on 11th June was a mistake.

As I keep telling you, BOTH SIDES LIE.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 09:58 AM

Keith, that's not how your words in threads like this one will be perceived after Israeli apartheid is dismantled. Your words will be perceived as protecting and enabling Israeli apartheid. And that is how you will be remembered by those who read your words.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 10:09 AM

OK let me clear it up now.
I do not support the blockade.
I think it right for activists to challenge it.
I think the activists on the M. Marvara were wrong to attack the boarding parties and the evidence is that no deaths would otherwise have occurred.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 11:06 AM

we have a translation,many thanks to Dave MacKenzie and his daughter's boyfriend.
thread.cfm?threadid=130237&messages=3#2929861

Subject: RE: Any Norwegian speakers please?
From: Dave MacKenzie - PM
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 10:52 AM

" I think they're using something similar to a paintball gun    . Some stuff's running down the wall but I don't think it's blood, it could be of course but...



Oh, they've got a tiny laser sight (referring to a red dot on the deck) . There's a laser sight over there, I'm not sure what it is. Keep away from it.



It looks like something red's run down the wall here, we don't think it's blood we think they've been shooting paintballs or something similar. They're not using live ammunition, it could possibly be rubber bullets, but it's not live.

we saw at least ten men come down from helicopters here and now they've taken control over the bridge Oops shots incoming "


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 11:26 AM

Still room for doubt I agree.
No mention of the smell I expected.
And he did not investigate as I assumed he would, so I was wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 12:10 PM

Like I've said several times. He's going on what their prior experience told them was paintballs. He's not going on the substance at all, but rather on other things they saw being fired that were paintballs. And why else would the Israelis be using paintballs with paint the color of blood in them anyway, if not to confuse people about what they're seeing, just as these people are confused about what they're seeing.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 12:30 PM

CarolC,

"When paintball paint impacts a person, it sticks to the person. That's what it does. There is no excess and it doesn't spray off. It sticks to people"

Except YOU have stated it is NOT paint- so it would not act that way.

You can't claim it MUST act like paint, but it is not.

The pattern as shown coulD be A NUMBER of other red fluids- blood, hydraulic fluid, dye, etc. THAT is what makes your statement "Since it does not act like paint, it MUST be blood." false. It MIGHT be blood- it might not- the spray pattern is not enough to determine that.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 12:43 PM

Don T

"1. An act of piracy did take place in international waters, and had it been committed by any organisation other than the Israeli Defence Force, not one voice would have been raised in trying to defend the action."

The area those ships declared they were going to was under declared blockade- the Israeli actions were as legal as Kennedy's in the Cuban Missile Crisis.




"2. Those on board of the ship which was attacked by armed men, tried to defend against the incursion (as was their legal right), using only such weapons as came to hand. They were obviously not spoiling for a fight, or one might have expected them to be better armed."


You can't claim they were inspected for weapons, and then had those weapons when attacked- so, were they inspected before leaving port, or not?




"3. Of those defenders, eight died of multiple wounds, inflicted at short range, by nine millimetre sidearms, and one was shot in the head with a round commonly used in shotguns."

And seven IDF were wounded, one of whom is probably permanantly brain damaged. Tehy were trained military, enforcing a blockade- THAT should say something abotu the violence by the people on the ship.




"4. None of the attackers were killed. Even when the defenders managed to acquire handguns from them, these were discarded without being used."

a- so as long as someone does not kill, it is ok? Then CarolC has no protest about the other ships, since no-one died on them.

b- Prove that- I can claim with as much prof ( ie, none) that those captured pistols were used by IHH thugs to execute their own wounded to make Israel look bad. Try to prove THAT wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 12:46 PM

Lox,

" a machine guns lazer spotlight"

You are making a large leap- I use a red laser rangefined to determine distance in taking pictures- I guess I will be shot for having a machine gun.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 02:07 PM

You are making a large leap- I use a red laser rangefined to determine distance in taking pictures- I guess I will be shot for having a machine gun.

Dear Lord, what a pity that Mudcat doesn't have a "cracking up laughing" smiley.

Yeah, sure, the IDF were boarding a ship, using laser sights to take photos. They're just misrepresented photographers, not soldiers at all. In a fire-fight situation, or what was soon to become a fire-fight situation (albeit one-sided), laser gun sights aren't used, so it must be for photographic range-finding.

Have you considered the many benefits of bridge ownership? I have a couple in this portfolio I could show you.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 02:18 PM

In BB's brain [sic], many such idiocies are possible, Mouse.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 02:57 PM

Confirming my post was me.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 03:06 PM

In GregF's (sick) brain, the people in the helicopter would have no desire to film the assult.

In the real world, that video has already been released by the IDF.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 04:40 PM

Hi Keith,

I wasn't expecting it so soon, but I've just had an e.mail back from Espen.

He had this to say to me.

"I wasn`t sure about the red fluid at the time, but as time went on we started seeing wounds that corresponded with the information we got that there was glass inside the paintball shots. I still don`t know for sure what the fluid was, and thanks to the Israeli refusal of an international investigation, I guess we will never have forensic evidence about it. But as I saw the wounds I`m leaning strongly towards blood. It seems to be too much of it to come from paintballs.

The laser-dot didn`t seem to correspond with paintball guns, so thats when we seriously started reconsidering. Off course, a little later i t became abundantly clear that there was live fire on board."

There you are.

Straight from the horses mouth.

So you can shut up now.

Bye everyone thats it from me.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 05:24 PM

Keith, I saw the unedited footage because I have good sources. And no, when I saw the red substance in the higher quality video, I thought of blood.

And I think Espen has just now vindicated pretty much everything I have said on the subject of the red substance that was dripping from the open hatch and his reaction to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM

Except YOU have stated it is NOT paint- so it would not act that way.

Precisely. It's not paint from paintballs, so it's not behaving like paint from paintballs. If it was paint from paintballs, it would be behaving like paint from paintballs. It's not doing that. So it's not paint from paintballs.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 05:45 PM

"the Israeli actions were as legal as Kennedy's in the Cuban Missile Crisis."

Yes bruce,

That's right.

The Mavi Marmara bringing Aid into Gaza is a direct parallel with Russian warships bringing Nuclear missiles to the carribbean at the height of the cold war ...

... But only in La-La-whoopsy-banana-land.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 06:10 PM

In GregF's (sick) brain, the people in the helicopter would have no desire to film the assult.

Is this supposed to make sense, or was it intended as gibberish?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 07:16 PM

""The area those ships declared they were going to was under declared blockade- the Israeli actions were as legal as Kennedy's in the Cuban Missile Crisis.""

Not True! Kennedy knew those ships were carrying missiles, because the reds had made no secret of the fact. That constituted a "clear and present danger".

Where the Fotilla was going is immaterial, as it was attacked in international waters. If it had been within the territorial waters of Palestine, there might (and I only say might) be some merit in the action.

""You can't claim they were inspected for weapons, and then had those weapons when attacked- so, were they inspected before leaving port, or not?""

Iron bars would not be unusual aboard ship, with a number of possible functions other than hitting anybody. A galley without kitchen knives would be strange indeed. Would you, if planning resistance to an armed boarding party, rely on those "weapons", to repel men with rifles and sidearms? I don't think so.

""And seven IDF were wounded, one of whom is probably permanantly brain damaged. Tehy were trained military, enforcing a blockade- THAT should say something abotu the violence by the people on the ship.""

OH PUHLEASE! Seven injured, and one "possibly" brain damaged, according to the Israeli government, which is desperately trying to cover up the mess. So that'll be gospel then....DUH!

Wouldn't it be tragic if one or two managed to break a fingernail in the course of executing nine vastly outgunned civilians.

""a- so as long as someone does not kill, it is ok?""

No! Since they were defending themselves against men with lethal weapons, it would have been OK even if they HAD killed. BUT THEY DID NOT!

After all you are trying to make the case that using guns to execute civilians armed with iron bars and kitchen knives constitutes reasonable force. You can't have it both ways.

""b- Prove that- I can claim with as much prof ( ie, none) that those captured pistols were used by IHH thugs to execute their own wounded to make Israel look bad. Try to prove THAT wrong.""

Bruce, even you can't be stupid enough to advance that as a credible theory. For a start, if the IDF had not used the guns on them how do you reckon the "IHH thugs" having any wounded to kill.

Had it been so the Israelis would have spread that abroad in complete justification of their actions within an hour of the incident. It would have been the second time that Manna from heaven saved them.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 08:00 PM

One of the biggest obstacles to sanctioning Israel for their misdeeds is the bloc known as AIPAC in the U.S. which used to be known as American Israeli Political Action Committee and then changed their name to American Israeli Public Affairs Committee.

BTW the people in Gaza are not being supported by the U.S.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 05:08 AM

I can only repeat that the video evidence does not support it being blood.
I make it 2 minutes and 24 seconds from first pops as boat comes alongside until stains are seen. What became of the victim in that time?

Ten feet to the right of the ladder is a bin with a blanket on top.
How did blood get on that?
Further right still a second bin is liberally smeared.
It could not have come from the hatch.

As time went on, people were exposed to the projectiles at close range. Not fired, against gravity, up to the decks of the ship, from a boat at sea level

Espen Goffeng was doing great service as an objective journalist showing the world what was happening. I admire that.
He then saw the violent deaths of friends and comrades, and like all the crew was treated severely by the IDF.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 09:20 AM

Keith,

Espen said "The laser-dot didn`t seem to correspond with paintball guns, so thats when we seriously started reconsidering."

This corresponds exactly with my interpretation of the events in the video in a previous post when I said:

From: Lox - PM
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 03:56 PM


"The Norwegian Thinks (not knows) that the IDF are only firing paintballs so it isn't blood.

The big guy says "now its the real one" or something, and laughs, whilst drawing attention to the lazer sight.

This could be a laugh of nervousness or of disbelief, but whatever it is it is in response to the lazer sight, and is suggesting to the norwegian that he should perhaps not be so confident."

Once again, eyewiness testimony is consistent with video evidence.

I have since become virtual friends with Espen online.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 09:31 AM

He seems like a great bloke.
Has he seen our debate?

The laser would be on a firearm, but there is no evidence of it firing before the landing.
We have been arguing about who started the violence, and fixated on the stains.
Notwithstanding Espen's e-mail, the activists are not actually claiming live fire or serious casualties before the soldiers landed.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 11:22 AM

It's dripping down from the hatch. It's point of origin is above the hatch. The presence of red substance on items on the deck where the person filming is doesn't mean anything, since there were also paintballs with red paint in them being fired as well. Most likely the red on the things near the videographer is paint from paintballs. Which would account for the initial confusion about what is dripping down from the hatch.

As I've said already a few times, what other reason would the Israelis have for using paintballs with blood colored paint in them in a situation like this one? When before has any kind of military commando unit ever used paintballs as a part of their ordinance? Why would they use them in this context? The only reason is to obscure something they don't want seen and to create confusion.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 11:23 AM

Keith, I have posted numerous testimonies from people aboard the ship reporting live fire before the Israelis landed.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 11:25 AM

Forgot this part... and many of them report two or more casualties prior to the Israelis landing.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 12:02 PM

Carol, when real casualties appear there is a rush to give help and take them to safety.
A most natural human reaction especially in people united in a struggle.
Carol, why does no one show any concern for the person bleeding to death feet away from them?
They were hit less than two and a half minutes earlier.
They might be saved.
People stand around.
One strolls past the dying brother's flowing lifeblood and calls to Hassan, but no urgency.

My explanation is that everyone knows there is no victim.
What is yours?

A few yards to the right of the ladder, a similar flow can be seen coming down the side from the deck above.
No one cares about that either.

The time has come for us to agree to differ Carol.
The downloads all have the missing 15 seconds now.
I think it is going to go back to being paint, but we will see.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 12:47 PM

Which video or video sequence are you referencing in your last post, Keith?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 12:51 PM

Do you require help finding the other stains?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 09:47 PM

Keith- you appear not to understand something very simple.
The people on the convoy knew that the Israelis would not shoot at peaceful demonstrators, because that would destroy their (the Israelis') credibility. After all, they are the heirs of the Shoah, of Exodus 1947, of the Warsaw Ghetto. They would recognise legitimate protest against oppression when it was shown to them. Scene in Battleship Potemkin: "Brothers! Would you shoot your comrades?"

Not brothers, like Tsarists the whole world are just enemies to paranoid Israel. They fired on their own credibility and killed what remained of it.

They saw paint balls because live shots were impossible. They hadn't counted on Israel's crackhead sense of invincibility.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jun 10 - 02:52 AM

Paul, Israel has a long history of using lethal force against stone throwing demonstrators.

They pelted the armed boat parties with everything they could pick up and throw, but were so confident of only getting paint in return that people were left to bleed.

It is consistent with what we see but not really believable.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jun 10 - 06:51 AM

Carol, individual eyewitnesses say many things.
That is not to suggest that they are all liars, but their experiences may have jumbled the precise timeline in their memories.

Please use your contacts to establish if the leadership is claiming live fire and significant injuries before the landings.
If not, our scrutinising of these stains is pointless.

The ship's captain is interviewed on IHH site.
The Google translation is poor.
Can kaybý ve yaralanmalarýn çoðu askerlerin ilk giriþi ve üst güverteden aþaðý açtýklarý ateþ esnasýnda gerçek mermiler kullanýlmasý nedeniyle oldu.
Fatalities and injuries are often the first sign of the soldiers and they opened fire down from the upper deck because when real bullets were used.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 19 Jun 10 - 12:07 PM

Israeli thuggery isn't believable? Unbelievable.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Jun 10 - 02:01 PM

The Problem with Eyewitness Testimony:a talk by Barbara Tversky, Professor of Psychology and George Fisher, Professor of Law.   Stanford Law School, April 5, 1999:



http://agora.stanford.edu/sjls/Issue%20One/fisher&tversky.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 01:27 AM

The IHH site is carrying the interview with Laura Stuart.
They use a number of images from the Cultures Of Resistance video, but not the one that you thought showed the blood of the first victim of the Israelis.
http://www.ihh.org.tr/haksizliga-ve-adaletsizlige-karsi-bir-seyler-yapmaya-calisanlarin-gemisi/


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 08:40 AM

The captain and chief officer have said that activists prepared weapons hours before the confrontation.
They used a grinder, that was not part of the ship's equipment, to cut steel poles and chains.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 05:04 AM

Iara Lee yesterday posted another piece about her (Cultures Of Resistance) video.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/iara-lee/the-video-israel-doesnt-w_b_621788.html


She now accepts the final death toll as 9.
No wounded thrown into sea etc., and no missing who might have been the victim of the supposed murder clip.
You must now accept that you got that all wrong Carol, and it was false.

She now says, "Prior to the raid they are talking, sleeping, praying or working on their computers. After commandos invade the ship you see men scrambling, the dead and wounded being hurried to the lower decks, away from Israeli gunfire, "

There is no longer the claim of serious injuries prior to landing.
There was no blood.
You were both wrong about that.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 05:15 AM

While this nit-picking apologist crap rumbles on - in the real world:
Israel has requested that the United Nations shelves its inquiry into the atrocity in deference to its own - surprise, surprise!
Meanwhile back at the ranch; the Israelis are preparing to demol;ish 22 Palestinian homes in Jerusalem to erect a tourist centre.
Jim Carroll


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