BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 11:43 AM

Meanwhile back at the ranch; the Israelis are preparing to demol;ish 22 Palestinian homes in Jerusalem to erect a tourist centre.

But that doesn't matter because the Israelis have God's favour, and the Palestinians are brown.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 07:12 PM

Israel has committed a war crime against not only the Gazan people but those who want to see them have basic human rights. There is no legitimate defense for Israel's violent action using commandos to attack an unarmed ship whose motivation was clear at the outset.

Once again, the American-Israeli-Public-Affairs-Committee have disseminated their
insane propaganda and are helping to make Israel the pariah of the world.

And Obama is going along with this criminal behavior.

With this type of apartheid and oppression against Gazans, how can Israel be a friend to the U.S.? Their policies are a denial of democracy and basic human rights.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 02:46 AM

Yes, if you believe everything the activists say, and nothing the Israelis say.
If you only accept that for which there is evidence then you can not justify your verdict, and you just become part of the propaganda war.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 09:25 AM

"Yes, if you believe everything the activists say, and nothing the Israelis say."
No act of piracy, no occupation of Palestinian land, no wall, no phophorus weapons used in the last incursion, no bombing of hospitals and schools, no shooting down of civilians, no opposition to UN enquiry, no demolition of homes in Gaza, no proposal to demolish 22 Palestinian homes to construct a tourist centre, no blockade...........
Which of these are inventions of activists and without back-up evidence?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 10:04 AM

Jim, this thread is about the aid convoy.
I agree Israelis lie.
The other side also lies.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 01:44 PM

Are rights activists and NGO's "the other side"?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 02:27 PM

This thread is about the aid convoy, and by the other side I mean IHH.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 02:41 PM

"I agree Israelis lie."
All politicians lie - they don't kill women and children - not all of them anyway.
You cannot separate the attack on the aid convoy from the rest of their atrocities; they are all part of the same objective; usurpation of Palesrtinian territory (even 22 houses worth).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 05:20 PM

Was it an atrocity?
How do you know?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 05:22 PM

"Was it an atrocity?
How do you know? "

We won't for sure. At least not until the transparent impartial international investigation takes place..

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 07:42 PM

How will you know it's impartial?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 08:15 PM

Simple common sense really - troops who board a ship and kill a number of the passengers in international waters are pirates who are guilty of an atrocity - quite apart from the other atrocities they have committed which Keith and co. have carefully ducked (the use of chemical weapons on a civilian population; the bombing of hospitals and schools, the attempt to starve the Palestinians into submission.....) how much evidence do you want - it's all there. If none of these things happened - please feel free to say so.
I never thought I'd say it but Israel now bears all the hallmarks of a Nazi state - they have learned well from their former persecutors.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 11:44 PM

FWIW:

Iranian aid flotilla canceled

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 10 - 02:02 AM

It is not that clear cut Jim.

Piracy?
This is what BBC says.

Israel breach international law?
This is disputed. A Turkish draft resolution circulated at the UN Security Council described the attack as a violation of international law. Turkish foreign minister Ahmet Davutoglu called the raid "tantamount to banditry and piracy" and "murder conducted by a state".
Israel's foreign ministry says that under international maritime law, when a maritime blockade is in effect, no boats can enter the blockaded area. It adds: "Any vessel that violates or attempts to violate a maritime blockade may be captured or even attacked under international law."
The question may hinge on whether the blockade itself is legal.

Did they start killing people Jim?
There is no evidence they did, and considerable evidence that they had no intention of using lethal force, but were themselves subject to attack.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jun 10 - 06:19 AM

""Did they start killing people Jim?
There is no evidence they did, and considerable evidence that they had no intention of using lethal force, but were themselves subject to attack.""

Nine dead bodies on one side, and onthe other side? No dead, and only one with an injury considered serious (and that based on a statement by the side that did the killing).

What would you consider to be evidence then?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 10 - 06:29 AM

"Did they start killing people Jim?"
They have ben killing those who got in the way of their land accession ambitions for over forty decades - little wonder you want to confine this to their latest act of piracy.
If you mean did they start killing people on the convoy - I'm pretty sure they'll find themselves 'not guilty' when they carry out their 'impartial' enquiry.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 10 - 06:31 AM

Don, you and Jim are childishly simplistic in your assessments.
We have no objective evidence of how the deaths occurred.

We do know that the first soldiers landed with paintball guns in their hands, and holstered pistols.

It could easily be, that faced with an overwhelming number of suicidal fanatics armed with clubs and chains, they used their pistols to save their lives.
That would all be entirely consistent with the evidence we do have.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Jun 10 - 06:38 AM

"I'm pretty sure they'll find themselves 'not guilty' when they carry out their 'impartial' enquiry."

Surely not!

Oh yeah, that's right the US blocked a transparent independent international enquiry. Though we will have a couple of token "friends of Israel" ineffectually hanging about.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 10 - 08:26 AM

We have no objective evidence of how the deaths occurred.

Sure we do! Obviously phaser fire from an alien spacecraft.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 10 - 08:53 AM

Circumstances of the deaths, I should have said.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jun 10 - 01:42 PM

""Don, you and Jim are childishly simplistic in your assessments.
We have no objective evidence of how the deaths occurred.

We do know that the first soldiers landed with paintball guns in their hands, and holstered pistols.""

YEAH! It must have been really frightening having all those vicious thugs marching rapidly backwards towards them.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jun 10 - 01:45 PM

Don T,

You obviously have not seen the videos as presented by CarolC et al.


Or do you just like to state lies to make yourself feel significant?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jun 10 - 02:00 PM

""Don T,

You obviously have not seen the videos as presented by CarolC et al.


Or do you just like to state lies to make yourself feel significant?""

BB, with your posting record, it ill behoves you to comment on the significance of others.

Read the facts again about where the nine dead men took bullets. I don't think there's too much mileage in attacking people with your back towards them, Do You?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jun 10 - 02:12 PM

One last time.

1. Israel's government admitted its real purpose in opposing a blockade.

The purpose given is not a legal reason for said blockade.

Ergo, the blockade is illegal, the boarding of the ships was an act of piracy, perpetrated outside of Israeli territorial limits, and the ensuing deaths were murder sanctioned by the Israeli government.

2. Israel expects that it will be allowed to carry out its own investigation, into the circumstances of its own criminal actions, and Uncle Sam supports it.

3. The people of the Gaza Strip continue to go short of food, building materials, and many other items which have no military value, and the west sits back and watches.

4. Two or three posters on this forum continue to support and approve this new form of slow genocide, whether because they have Israeli, or Jewish connections, or because they simply get a kick out of shit stirring, I do not know.

I do think that they should be damned ashamed to call themselves human beings.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 03:42 AM

"We have no objective evidence of how the deaths occurred."
In which case, why are the Israelis insisting on carrying out their own enquiry AS THE HAVE FOLLOWING EVERY OTHER ATROCITY THEY HAVE COMMITTED - which you continue to ignore? I assume you have no excuse to offer for these.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 06:03 AM

Confirming guest post mine.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 08:28 AM

"It is normal for countries to carry out their own investigations."
With Israel's track record of committing atrocities and continually finding themselves not guilty it is not acceptible - especially as this last lot were committed in international waters (but that's legal because Israel's foreign ministry have given it the nod).
Perhaps that nice Mr Goebells should have conducted the Nuremberg War Crimes trials!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 08:44 AM

Your constant evoking of Nazi analogies says much about you.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 08:51 AM

There is a comparison between the behaviour of the Israelis and the Nazis and your defence of that behaviour says much about you.
And by the way Keith - the Bloody Sunday reports (both of them) were carried out by the culprit nation - remind me again how long it took to arrive at an honest one!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 10:47 AM

We could argue that a country can not investigate its own armed forces.
No other country would agree to that for itself.
Special rules for countries you do not approve of?

You and Don and Lox and Carol have decided that an atrocity must have occurred in the face of compelling evidence that it has not,
because Israel always and only commits atrocities.
Never mind that all other boardings have been carried out without loss off life.
That is blind prejudice.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 10:56 AM

"There is a comparison between the behaviour of the Israelis and the Nazis...."

This statement is preposterous and offensive to the extreme!!!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 11:20 AM

"This statement is preposterous and offensive to the extreme!!!"
I wonder if it as offensive as somebody using the dead of the Holocaust to defend the behaviour of the Israelis - I doubt it somehow!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 12:49 PM

Are you saying that Bobad or I have done that?
If not, please say so, and then explain why you thought it acceptable to make that post.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 12:56 PM

"There is a comparison between the behaviour of the Israelis and the Nazis...."

This statement is preposterous and offensive to the extreme!!!

At what point do we have to agree that it's actually not preposterous? What more do the Israelis have to do? Or are you saying it is always preposterous a priori? If so, why? Once again you appear to be giving the Israelis carte blanche because of wrongs suffered by Jews in the Shoa. That does not honour truth, nor the victims of the Shoa.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 12:59 PM

"Are you saying that Bobad or I have done that?"
This thread has been remarkably free of anti-Semitism, which may be down
to the vigilance of the site administrators, for which I am thankful.
Yet throughout there has been the suggestion anti-Semitism towards those of us who have criticised the behaviour of Israel.
I have not noticed the accusation from you Keith, but perhaps Bobad might care to explain "Your constant evoking of Nazi analogies says much about you."
That is why I thought it acceptable so write what I did.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 02:04 PM

I must say after viewing the Israeli govt's faked video where they dub in some actor saying:

"Shaddap! Go back to Auschvitz!"

any possible credibility they might have had regards an upfront internal investigation, was instantly shot to pieces in my eyes.

...that and any accusations of "anti-Semitism" directed at those critical of Israeli policies.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 04:14 PM

How did you react when a video claimed to show the murder of Furkan Dogan turned out to show no murder at all?
Or when you saw that Iara Lee's video was at one time being shown with 15 seconds edited out because Gorfeng appeared saying no live ammunition fired before landing?

Trust neither side to be honest.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 04:28 PM

"How did you react when a video claimed to show the murder of Furkan Dogan turned out to show no murder at all?
Or when you saw that Iara Lee's video was at one time being shown with 15 seconds edited out because Gorfeng appeared saying no live ammunition fired before landing?"

I didn't see those. Was any government body involved in their creation?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 04:35 PM

"Trust neither side to be honest."

I can understand the idea of caution in respect of anything presented as 'fact' by anyone that one cannot get some degree of outside verification for. It's hard (near impossible) in these online arguments to be certain of the case in any situation. But I wouldn't compare a group of varied international activists to an official government organisation as 'like for like' as you appear to, when speaking of 'sides'.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 04:38 PM

It has all been in this thread Crow Sister.
Is it OK to lie for political gain as long as you are not employed by a goverment?

The nurses on board claimed to have dealt with many more than 9 bodies.
Eye witnesses reported seeing bodies and wounded people disposed of into the sea.
None of it was true.
Does that revelation change your attitude about anything?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 04:44 PM

That was an aside by the way, and not really pertinent to the overall question. I kept my (typing) mouth shut over the 'blood v's paint' debate as I had no way of knowing what the case was. However if a government body is to be trusted with an investigation it's best that they don't fake evidence. The fact that everyone knows they faked evidence, means they can't be trusted to undertake an impartial internal investigation. Any conclusions they come to will be tainted by the fact that the whole world KNOWS that they are bare-faced liars!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 04:46 PM

"Does that revelation change your attitude about anything?"

What it tells me is that there needs to be an impartial independent international investigation - where no proven liars of any supposed 'side' run the show.

I'd say that about any equivalent incident in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 04:52 PM

As I understand it, IDF is not saying that they hoaxed the video of the radio exchange, and they have since posted the full unedited video with those comments still in it.
They are no longer claiming it came from M.Marmara.
Anyone on the convoy, or in the IDF force, or anyone within range with access to a VHF set could have made those comments.

Who knows?
You, Crow Sister?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 04:56 PM

"They are no longer claiming it came from M.Marmara.
Anyone on the convoy, or in the IDF force, or anyone within range with access to a VHF set could have made those comments."

I see, are you saying that the IDF claimed it came from the M.Marmara without actually knowing where it came from?

Curiouser and curiouser!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 10 - 01:45 AM

They say they assumed it was them because that is who they were calling.
They now accept that as an unreasonable assumption.
Not that curious really.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Jun 10 - 07:38 PM

""Not that curious really.""

I've noticed that about you Keith.

Nothing is ever curious, which tends to agree with your current spin on the facts. On the other hand, anything which disagrees with your argument is very curious, and must be subjected to analysis on the basis of your highly specialised knowledge of everything from Military History to Middle East Politics.

And it is odd how, in your estimation, all Israeli government action is not to be queried or criticised.

Have you got shares in Israel?

I recall you had very similar one sided attitudes to the Northern Ireland situation, a short time ago.

You seem to enjoy backing bullies, and kicking their victims.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 02:03 AM

I have not discussed "Middle East Politics" at all!
You made that up.
Why?
"One sided attidudes" is not something you can accuse me of.
I have treated the claims of both sides with scepticism and considered how they stand up to objective scrutiny of the evidence.
You and others have shown a healthy scepticism of Israeli claims, but swallowed without question all those of the anti israel lobby like naive and gullible children.
All those things I listed to Crow Sister were accepted by people here, and we now know they were false.

And you Don.
There are deaths, so Israel must have committed an atrocity.
They had wounds to their backs, so must have been running away.

You do not need "specialised knowledge of military history" to know that is nonsense.
Just a moment's consideration of the circumstances without prejudice.

Israel may well be lying about the VHF exchange, but they have come up with a plausible story consistent with the evidence we have so far.
There is nothing curious about their explanation is there?
Tell us how you just know it is a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 03:08 AM

Don, you brought up the Bloody Sunday thread in the context of me supporting bullies.

Can I remind you that in that thread I argued AGAINST the fascist bully boy who wanted to deprive the people of the North of their human and civil rights to choose their own government, and to impose on them by force a regime for which they have refused to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 04:04 AM

"I argued AGAINST the fascist bully boy"
I do hope you're not talking about me - I think you've done your share of "fascist" mud-slinging on one thread to allow it to spill over into this one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 04:38 AM

For the record - on the Bloody Sunday thread you have consistently excused and attempted to divert the blame from a government whose soldiers shot down innocent and unarmed civilian demonstraters, choosing to blame the men in the ranks (not the officers) rather than those who sent them in, possibly encouraged them, and certaily covered up for them for nearly four decades.
On this thread you have defended an act of outright piracy which ended in the killing of some of the passengers of the vessel they boarded. You have refused to acknowledge that the people responsible for this have usurped territory, destroyed homes, ghettoised occupants, used heavy weapons (including phosphorus bombs) on a civilian population in order to occupy the land that have taken over.
Please stand away from that mirror when you fling your 'facist' epithets about.
Jim Carroll