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BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

Jim Carroll 20 Jul 10 - 10:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jul 10 - 11:46 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 10 - 12:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jul 10 - 01:17 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jul 10 - 01:20 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 10 - 02:54 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 10 - 02:58 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 20 Jul 10 - 03:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jul 10 - 06:21 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Jul 10 - 08:54 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Jul 10 - 09:04 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Jul 10 - 09:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 10 - 02:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 10 - 02:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 10 - 02:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 10 - 02:23 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 10 - 03:23 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 10 - 03:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 10 - 04:42 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 10 - 05:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 10 - 05:28 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Jul 10 - 06:43 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Jul 10 - 06:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 10 - 06:55 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Jul 10 - 07:25 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Jul 10 - 07:30 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 10 - 07:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 10 - 07:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 10 - 07:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 10 - 08:24 AM
beardedbruce 21 Jul 10 - 09:16 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 10 - 09:24 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 10 - 09:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 10 - 09:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 10 - 09:56 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 10 - 10:13 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 10 - 10:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 10 - 11:05 AM
Emma B 21 Jul 10 - 01:17 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 10 - 01:28 PM
Emma B 21 Jul 10 - 05:37 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 10 - 06:11 PM
The Fooles Troupe 21 Jul 10 - 07:23 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Jul 10 - 07:23 PM
The Fooles Troupe 21 Jul 10 - 07:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jul 10 - 04:33 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jul 10 - 04:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jul 10 - 04:58 AM
Emma B 22 Jul 10 - 05:06 AM
The Fooles Troupe 22 Jul 10 - 05:24 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 10:21 AM

"but not really a chemical weapon."
Oh dear - you really are scraping the barrel now - youare in good company - enjoy your rally and don't exclude the Irish from your hatefest.
You obviously have more time to waste on this than I have. by-ee
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 11:46 AM

Does your army have it ready for use Jim?
Most armies do, even the ones that eschew chemical weapons.
Now, do you think the rocket attacks are wrong?
Should they stop?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 12:09 PM

"SSDD"
Guest 999 - please explain or I won't sleep tonight.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 01:17 PM

Why so coy about the rockets Jim?

I do not condone Israel's use of WP where it endangered civillians.
I deplored it.
You gave it as an example of genocide.
How can it be, since no one died?

Now, do you think the rocket attacks are wrong Jim?
Should they stop?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 01:20 PM

I think 999 is saying, that although it is another day, the debate has not changed much.
He does have a point.
Why did you reopen this old thread Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 02:54 PM

Because Israel has committed yet another atrocity Keith - it matters to me; obviously it doesn't to you.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 02:58 PM

I would have opened it anyway to pass on the information that they are now considering changing the law to enable them to seize the property vacated by the Palestinians they have driven out - making it clear that this whole sordid affair is about their acquiring Palestinian land and nothing else.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 03:43 PM

"Why did you reopen this old thread Jim?"

It's not an "old" thread Keith, some of us are still following it.

I'm open minded (I hope). I'm not a major contributor, I dip in and out. But, I'm one of those for whom these discussions are actually genuinely useful and meaningful, because I learn from them, rather than gaining debating points from them.

Before I came to this discussion I didn't know what I thought about Isreal. I didn't event think about Isreal, bar having a few English Jewish friends who seemed quite anti whatever it was their culture was traditionaly about.

Let me tell you, I feel very differently now.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 06:21 PM

It was an old thread in that it lapsed for 2 weeks.
The new discussion is not even relevant to the title.
Since you reopened it Jim, you have failed to respond to some perfectly reasonable questions from me.
I answer all of yours next post.

1. How can ethnic cleansing result in a rapid increase in numbers?

2. Give one example of me supporting Israeli fascism.

3. If Israelis are guilty of genocide in Gaza, what of Hamas who have killed more Gazans?

4. How was the use of WP genocidal when no one died?

5. Is it wrong to fire rockets at Israeli towns?

6. Should they stop?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 08:54 PM

"Re Don(Wyziwyg)T's post: your cut'n'paste story referred to a Kurdish boy from northern Iraq.""

I cut 'n paste precisely nothing!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 09:04 PM

""You seem to think that it is ok to kill Israelis, and that when a goverment ( as you claim Hamas is) attacks another country they should be immune from attacks in return. The Hamas CHARTER declares that Israel does not have the right to exist- Israel has declared that the Palestinians can exist in peace as long as they do not attack Israel.""

Perhaps you would confirm for us, BB, just which country has a totally destroyed infrastructure, is being blockaded so that it cannot rebuild, or feed its population, and is subjected daily to military force on a scale which it has not the slightest chance of combatting, and which country has a few craters in unoccupied cow pastures, and less than twenty civilians killed by unaimed rockets over eight years?

If, as you say, Hamas is dedicated to the total destruction of Israel, they are not doing too well, are they.

You seem to have no conception of what constitutes reasonable force, so maybe you should move to Israel. You would fit right in.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 09:20 PM

""Incidentally - the tactics used by the Palestinians against the Israelis in order to get their homes back are no worse, and in some cases not as extreme as those used by the Jewish resistance in order to set up the State of Israel in the first place. Isn't it funny how terrorism becomes a valid form of self-determination depending on which side you support?""

Remember the Stern Gang and the Irgun Zwei Leumi, who numbered ex president Menachim Begin among their activists, when they poured petrol over tents full of British soldiers, and set light to them, back in 1948.

Beats the hell out of a few unguided rockets, doesn't it.

Israel's whole history is one of bloodshed and violence, and their responses to opposition are invariably way over the top. They won't stop until all of Gaza is settled by Israelis, and they won't care who, or how many, they have to kill to achieve that.

Anybody care to make a bet on which side will wipe out the other?

NO! because there's no decent odds to be had. Hamas can talk, but it's Israel which is the aggressor.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 02:10 AM

Don, your questions were not for me, but are so obvious I will deal with them.

You said you cut and paste "precisely nothing."
Yes you did. 18thJuly 1.50pm, about an Iraqui Kurdish boy who went to Israel for medical help.
You added "And of course he can now go back and suffer slow starvation at the hands of the same nation which provided the medical help" implying that Israel is guilty of starving Kurds!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 02:15 AM

Don, you asked which country had the destroyed infrastructure etc.
That would be Gaza, as the result of the Isaeli operation to counter the rocket attacks.
You can say that the force was disproportionate, and I might agree, but it still failed to stop the rockets.
The infrastructure is quite adequate for manufacturing and launching rockets against Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 02:21 AM

Don, you said "They won't stop until all of Gaza is settled by Israelis,"

It was settled by Israelis.
The Israeli army forced the settlers out at gunpoint and Israel withdrew from Gaza.
But for the rockets, that would have been that.
Because of the rockets, after trying and failing to stop them with more limited operations, finally, after years of provocation by lethal rocket attacks, they launched the operation we all deplore.
But for the rockets it would not have happened, would it.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 02:23 AM

Any chance of some answers to my questions?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 03:23 AM

Keith,
All your questions have been answered many times by many people - the fact that you either have failed to understand the answers or do not wish to is your problem.
Bombing civilians, chemical weapons, destroying hospitals, demolishing homes, two major massacres, annexation of territory, the use of heavy weaponry, tanks and planes against a civilian population in built-up areas, the attempred starving out of a whole population, the building of a wall to create ghettos, the current proposal to take over land vacated by people who have been driven out by the above actions - these are your examples of fascism - respond to them.
You are not listening and you are not responding to anything that has been said; that is why I will no longer respond to your inanities - it is a waste of time and it nauses up threads.
And please do not accuse anybody of cut-n-paste.... not you!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 03:53 AM

To finish:
Please do not further insult us by suggesting that your questions have not been answered.
Your behaviour on at least on three threads has been uncannily like that of a child being taught its times table and simply does not want to know.
If you have questions you wish to be answered, please try addressing some that have been directed at you - and no - don't ask for them to be repeated; seek them out for yourself for a change. It is your prerogative not to accept the answers, but it is neither honest nor fair to the other contributors to claim that they have not been given.
Please do not continue to obstruct threads with your apparent desire to be noticed.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 04:42 AM

Jim, cut and paste was not an accusation.
It is a tool we all use to put information to the forum.
Don just forgot doing it.

I really am not aware of avoiding any questions.
If you have one in mind, I promise to address it.

I am not claiming great knowledge of all this.
I came in because people seemed to be unquestioningly accepting highly dubious claims from one side and rejecting out of hand very plausible claims from the other.
When it came, the video evidence vindicated that impression.

I would discuss any of the list of issues you have just produced, but one at a time please.

I would ask you to refrain from hysterical, wildly exagerated claims.
1. Starvation. No one is starving in Gaza.
2. Ethnic Cleansing. No ethnic group is disappearing from any area, except Christians from some Palestinian areas.
3. Genocide. Can you find any responsible body claiming that?
By its charter, UN MUST intervene militarily wherever it is happening.
It is not happening in Gaza.
4. Chemical weapons. Does your army not use WP smoke? Most do. It is not classed as a chemical weapon (except by you obviously).


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 05:14 AM

Keith,
My cut-n-paste accusation was based onthe fact that:
1 It seemed familiar to something I had read elsewhere
2 It was trite and preachy as if it had been lifted out of a political manifesto
3 It bore a very close resemblence to an article on the net on Bernadet Devlin - complete with Civil Rights references.
The article in question came up almost immediately in response to my googling some of your text straight in. I did not put it up to humiliate you but because you presented it as 'original thought' which I believe it was not.
As for the rest of your 'arguments' all your points have been answered elsewhere ad-nauseum,
Others can decide whether they wish to continue this one-player tennis match but as far as I'm concerned you can take your war of attrition elsewhere - I'm gone from this farce (not to say I won't participate in response to others, just that I refuse to make any thread a back-and-forth with someone who brings no knowledge or even evidence of interest to the subjects he seeks to dominate).
You manage to make the most interesting subjects boooooooring
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 05:28 AM

You said you had "easily found" a piece I had copied "almost verbatim"
That is a lie.
I am so touched that you refrained from revealing it to spare me humiliation!

Do it Jim.
Post and be damned.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 06:43 AM

Maybe this was an Iraqi Kurdish boy, though that is not quite what was said.

However, that is nit-picking on a pretty mean level. The article also said that about half of those treated were Palestinian, and my comment still stands.

It doesn't compensate for the killings and destruction, the deliberately produced malnutrition, or the refusal to allow supplies of basics to be shipped in.

There were no war supplies on any of those ships, and the silly, and largely ineffective rockets, are presumably homemade.

You can nit-pick to your hearts content, but it won't alter the fact that you support terror tactics by one modern, well equipped, military regime, against a bunch of primitive third world farmers.

Nor will it change the fact that Israel is the local playground bully, and the most likely cause of an eventual major conflagration which may destroy the whole of the Middle East.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 06:49 AM

BTW Keith. I never have, and never will, cut'n paste articles by other sources such as the media.

The only cut'n past I do, is to sample the post I am answering, and by that, to let the poster know to what I refer.

Just about all Catters do that, and it helps the discussion.

Apart from that, all that you see from me is my own words, thoughts, and opinions.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 06:55 AM

As I said Don, we all use cut and paste to put information to the forum.
Nothing wrong with that.

Those "ineffective" rockets do kill, maim and terrorise people Don, and they are indiscriminate.
If only they would stop, things would be very much better.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 07:25 AM

""1. Starvation. No one is starving in Gaza.
2. Ethnic Cleansing. No ethnic group is disappearing from any area, except Christians from some Palestinian areas.
3. Genocide. Can you find any responsible body claiming that?
By its charter, UN MUST intervene militarily wherever it is happening.
It is not happening in Gaza.
4. Chemical weapons. Does your army not use WP smoke? Most do. It is not classed as a chemical weapon (except by you obviously).
""

1. FACT! A large percentage of the Gaza population are not getting enough food, and are suffering from malnutrition. This is the first stage of starvation, and it will get worse as long as the Israelis are banning the import of items like butter, in case they should be used to make bombs. In light of this your comment is specious.

2. FACT! Israel plans to populate land which has been cleared of Palestinians, with Israelis. Israel also still occupies and claims ownership of land acquired by military force, having substituted the original dwellers with Isralis. By any definition this is de facto ethnic cleansing, and they are vey good at it.

3. FACT! Israel, in reponse to even the most minor incidents, carries out massive punitive expeditions into Gaza, killing civilians, (men, women, and children) indiscriminately, and in hundreds, or even thousands. They have bombed Gaza to rubble, destroying hospitals, and schools, and even United Nations buildings and staff. I have a really hard time seeing this as anything other than incipient genocide.

They claim that Palestinians were using hospitals and schools as shelter for weapons and terrorists, but whose word do we have for the truth of that? .......ISRAEL'S Oh,that's all right then, after all they wouldn't lie......would they?

4. FACT! Willie Pete (White Phosphorus) is not considered to be an illegal chemical weapon when used as a smoke screen, on an open battlefield. Its use, however, in confined spaces as an anti personnel weapon, against defenceless human beings, is a horrendous crime against humanity. If you support that use, then you are quite simply inhuman.

Don T


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 07:30 AM

""Those "ineffective" rockets do kill, maim and terrorise people Don, and they are indiscriminate.
If only they would stop, things would be very much better.
""

If England were occupied and under seige, you would be the first to start lobbing bombs at the intruder, yet you decry the people of another land feeling the same.

If Israel got the fuck out of land it doesn't have any right to, perhaps the rockets would stop.

But we'll never know, because Israel is merciless, implacable, and greedy for expansion.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 07:44 AM

"Post and be damned."
And drive this thread into yet another "you said, I said, the writer said" blind alley - don't think so really. If you really can't remember where you got your 'original thoughts', do what I did and google them again.
You accused Don of cut-and-paste - he denied it - you don't feel the need to justify your accusations or withdraw them, neither do I.

"Those "ineffective" rockets do kill, maim and terrorise".
So do the chemical weapons, the tanks, the bombings, the destruction of hospitals, schools and homes, the killing of civilians, the blockade, the checkpoints, the wall - which you have neither acknowledged nor denied, so therefore, you find acceptable.
Do you think this all or any of this is a good or bad thing?
Compare like with like in this somewhat David and Goliath situation and you have a true picture.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 07:47 AM

It did get out of Gaza, the rockets continued.

Malnutrition is a bad thing found in many countries including developed ones.
No one is starving in Gaza. Why exagerate when the truth is bad enough.
It weakens your case.

Whatever plans you are talking about, there is no ethnic cleansing going on.
The issues over land are bad enough. Exagerating and using emotive expressions that do not describe the actual situation weakens your case.

You may have a hard time not seeing "incipient genocide" whatever that is, but genocide has a clear definition and is not happening in Gaza. What is happening is bad enough. Why exagerate wildly?

Israel did not use WP in confined spaces. It was delivered by artillery and aircraft to create smoke.
The use close to civillians was reckless and deplorable, but it was not a chemical weapons attack.
Why exagerate when the truth is bad enough?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 07:53 AM

I did not accuse Don of cut and paste, I just reminded him that he used it and used it openly and correctly as we all do.

The other matter is not about "you said, I said, the writer said"
It is about you saying you found something I claimed as original on the web.
You lied to discredit me.
No such piece existed.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 08:24 AM

I suggest that we both agree not to bicker.
Just put the two pieces side by side so anyone can see which of us is lying.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 09:16 AM

"Remember the Stern Gang and the Irgun Zwei Leumi, who numbered ex president Menachim Begin among their activists, when they poured petrol over tents full of British soldiers, and set light to them, back in 1948.

Beats the hell out of a few unguided rockets, doesn't it.
"

The attacking of MILITARY has always been done in war- too bad the PALESTINIANS can't restrict themselves to military targets- which I have never complained about, except as being a bad path to peace.







"2. FACT! Israel plans to populate land which has been cleared of Palestinians, with Israelis. Israel also still occupies and claims ownership of land acquired by military force, having substituted the original dwellers with Isralis. By any definition this is de facto ethnic cleansing, and they are vey good at it.
"

FACT- the West bank had a large Jewish population prior to 1948, as did a number of Arab nations. Where are those people now, and why do you think THEY were NOT ethnically cleansed? Perhhaps you need to consider that Israel is just RESETTLING tha areas that were previously Jewish. You seem to think it ok for Palestinains to perform ethnic cleansing, re Jews and Christians: I detect more than a slight whiff of bigotry in your posts.





"They claim that Palestinians were using hospitals and schools as shelter for weapons and terrorists, but whose word do we have for the truth of that?"

The UN? Observers? BBC TV reports, showing the school? Claims that the PALESTINAS made? You have NO problem in taking PALESTINIAN statements as true without outside verification- again, a stink appears in your posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 09:24 AM

And still you refuse to acknowledge the inordinate force used against the Palestinian people and the imbalance of fire-power of the Israelis and those opposing them. These are war crimes, plain and simple, and are widely recognised as such.
Do you believe that if the opposition to these war crimes ceased, the Israelis would return seized land, cease incursions into Palestinian territory, stop demolishing hoses, bombing hospitals and schools, remove the blockade, the checkpoints and the wall and maybe start to act more like human beings and less like fascist thugs?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 09:31 AM

PS
A bit of cut-and-paste on chemical weapons - as used by Saddam Hussain and the Israelis.
"As an incendiary weapon, WP burns fiercely and can set cloth, fuel, ammunition and other combustibles on fire. Since WWII, it has been extensively used as a weapon, capable of causing serious burns or death.[2] White phosphorus is used in bombs, artillery, and mortars, short-range missiles which burst into burning flakes of phosphorus upon impact. White phosphorus is commonly referred to in military jargon as "WP", and the slang term "Willy/Willie Pete/Peter" (dating from World War I) is still commonly used by infantry and artillery servicemen.[citation needed]
WP is also a highly efficient smoke producing agent, burning quickly and causing an instant bank of smoke. As a result, smoke producing WP munitions are very common, particularly as smoke grenades for infantry, loaded in defensive grenade dischargers on tanks and other armored vehicles, or as part of the ammunition allotment for artillery or mortars. These create smokescreens to mask movement from the enemy, or to mask his fire."
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 09:39 AM

Thanks Jim.
It was the smoke producing munitions that were used in Gaza.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 09:56 AM

Which is the liar?
Judge for yourself.
My piece.
Most of Ireland wanted out of British rule, but Ulster wanted to stay in and was prepared to fight.
Dublin wanted to force them out, but did not have the might.
Britain wanted to force them out, but the army refused to do it.
Illiberal Jim thinks they should have been forced out.
How Jim?

Politicians can only hope to please most of the people most of the time.
They tinkered with the border so as few people as possible found themselves on the wrong side of the (open) border.
What more could they do?
Some of those who did not get their own way, stamped their feet and started executing people.
It still goes on.

Now, give us the piece you found Jim, and I will say no more.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 10:13 AM

Read the definition Keith - it doesn't mention two types, it says that WP does both - used on the marsh Arabs by Saddam Hussain and on Palastinian civilians by the Israelis - did you not see the film footage of " short-range missiles which burst into burning flakes of phosphorus upon impact"?
I've said what I have to say regarding cut and paste - as you are fond of saying, what on earth has this to do with " New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid"
As for your saying no more - gi'e us a break Jimmy - chance'd be a fine thing
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 10:31 AM

Incidently - even if there had been two types of phosphorus weapons, with what authority did you claim the Israelis were using the 'smoke-producing' type - aren't we goiung a little overboard in our support for Israeli fascism?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 11:05 AM

"with what authority did you claim the Israelis were using the 'smoke-producing' type -"

Er, like everyone else I saw it on the news videos.

Your silence on establishing who lied tells us all we need to know.
Everyone now knows something about you, and what you are capable of for the sake of a debating point.
You should be ashamed, but you are not are you Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 01:17 PM

From The New York Times January 21, 2009

Amnesty International said it found "indisputable evidence of widespread use of white phosphorus in densely populated residential areas in Gaza City and in the north."
In a statement, it said its investigators "saw streets and alleyways littered with evidence of the use of white phosphorus, including still-burning wedges and the remnants of the shells and canisters fired by the Israeli Army."

Phosphorus rounds are usually used to spread a thick, white smoke to screen military actions and mark specific areas. Military experts say phosphorus is often particularly useful in urban warfare, in part because it creates tall columns of smoke that can obscure upper-story windows.

But human rights groups harshly criticize its use, saying that the horrible burns and the widespread fires that phosphorus causes make it a menace to civilians.....

Part of what makes white phosphorus controversial is that it can be difficult to control how wide the effects are.

When the shells explode in the air, they disperse pieces of felt soaked in phosphorus — larger version of the shells contain more than 100 of them — that can land on people and cause intense burning, according to Chris Cobb-Smith, a British Army veteran

In early January, a week into Israel's war in Gaza, the home of Sabah Abu Halima was hit by an Israeli shell.
Ms. Abu Halima, the matriarch of a farming family in the northern Gaza area of Beit Lahiya, was caught in an inferno that burned her husband and four of their nine children to death.

Dr. Nafez Abu Shaban, head of Shifa's burn unit, said the family's burns, which he and an assisting doctor from Egypt had treated, were of a kind he had never encountered, reaching to the muscle and bone.

"They were deeper and wider than anything I had seen; a bad odor came from the wounds and smoke continued to come out of them for many hours," he said in his office around the corner from Ms. Abu Halima's sickbed.

He added, "We took out a piece of foreign matter that a colleague identified as white phosphorous."

full report


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 01:28 PM

"You should be ashamed, but you are not are you Jim."
Nope - said all I have to say on the subject and have no intention of clogging up this or any other thread with arguments that have nothing to do with the topic in hand - open a thread.
How about your pointing out which news videos claimed that there were two types of phosphorus and that the Israelis were using the harmless type.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 05:37 PM

I think I can see where Keith's confusion arose -

2009

January 5 The Times reports tell-tale smoke above Gaza. An Israeli military official says: "We categorically deny the use of white phosphorus."

January 8 The Times runs pictures of white phosphorus shells stockpiles. Major Avital Leibovich, a military spokesman, says: "This is what we call a quiet shell - it has no explosives and no white phosphorus. It is not for killing people."

January 12 The Times finds more than 50 phosphorus burns victims in hospital

January 14 Gabi Ashkenazi, Israel Defence Forces Chief of Staff, says: "The IDF acts only in accordance with international law and does not use white phosphorus ."

January 16 UN Relief and Works Agency HQ hit with phosphorus munitions

January 21 Major Leibovich admits use of white phosphorus "according to international law". Major- General Amir Eshel, the army's head of strategic planning, says: "It is the most non-lethal kind of weapon. I don't see any issue with that."

January 23 Israel launches investigation into white phosphorus munitions:
"Some practices could be illegal. The IDF is holding an investigation concerning one specific unit and one incident."

April 22 Israeli military official tells The Times that a "media buzz" led to the order to stop using white phosphorus shells

The results of IDF investigations into alleged violations committed by the military during the operation, in which more than a thousand Palestinians were killed. ……

'An Israeli official said that inquiries "revealed a very small number of incidents in which intelligence or operational errors took place". By and large, the army had "maintained a high professional and moral level".

The incidents included an attack that killed 21 people when forces targeted a home rather than a nearby weapon storage facility.
"These unfortunate incidents are unavoidable and occur in all combat situations, in particular of the type which Hamas forced on the IDF by choosing to fight from within the civilian population," the official said.'

Human Rights Watch said: "We consider the IDF investigations a cover-up for serious violations of international law"

And yes!…
They also accused Hamas of seriously violated the laws of war but then we in the West are not supporting Hamas politically and finacially

"Israel backs down over white phosphorus"
The Times April 23, 2009


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 06:11 PM

Thanks 999 - couldn't agree more (and went to bed Jamesonised) but thanks for the thought.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 07:23 PM

"like everyone else I saw it on the news videos."

I saw the VERY distinctive radiating white 'tree root like' trails from exploding shells in the air in many different videos - recognised them immediately from the first time I saw it and with no mention of what they were. Very few materials behave like that.

I have studied Physical, Inorganic & Organic Chemistry at Tertiary Level.

Phosphorus is phosphorus is phosphorus - there is only one such chemical - yes, red, yellow and white, but the chemical still burns like buggery on exposure to air - a solid version of napalm, really. If you claim that I am wrong, and that it was 'something else', please provide documentary links to what real military material you THINK it was.

In my high School, a distracted teacher with a misbehaving class (we tended to watch him MUCH more closely in future!) once accidentally put Sodium (stored under oil) in the Phosphorus Bottle (stored under water). Putting Sodium in water is very dangerous, especially in ANY quantity larger than the tiniest 'pea-sized' piece. The resulting explosion set fire to the oil, which EXPOSED THE PHOSPHORUS TO THE AIR and wow! Firecracker Night on Steroids! - lucky the glass fragments went in 'safe directions' - not even the nearby teacher was injured.

Btw, a M.A.S.H. episode went realistically into the effects & consequences of (Korea War period, remember) a soldier hit by phosphorus fragments.


I can only say that I do not believe the lying b*stards did NOT use Phosphorus shells in great quantity - it is even documented that they set fire to the UN Food & Aid storage warehouse with them. I watched the footage from inside the storage area of them raining down and starting fires.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 07:23 PM

""You should be ashamed, but you are not are you Jim.""

That is the sickest joke you have ever produced, and you've produced many Keith.

YOU are an apologist for fascist thugs who bomb another country back to the stoneage, and JIM should be ashamed for opposing your specious rubbish?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 07:40 PM

OH - yes, and the 'nail in the coffin' argument about WHY anyone who says that there exist 'safe smoke producing only White Phosphorus munitions' is OUTRIGHT LYING,

is that IF they DID exist, trust me, every Riot Squad & SWAT Team in the world would use them - the fact that they don't gives me a little glow of faith in a minimal general level of humanity existing on this planet!


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 04:33 AM

Don,
"JIM should be ashamed for opposing your specious rubbish?"

No Don, I do not expect to be agreed with.
He should be ashamed of claiming to have found an original piece by me on the net, and maintaining the lie.
Do you find that acceptable behaviour Don?

All armed forces use WP smoke. I have seen it often enough and have fired it from the 81mm mortar.
You will see that I have not supported its use in Gaza.
I said it was wrong and deplorable. It could also be illegal.
I only disagreed with Jim when he said it was a chemical weapon, which is wrong, and an act of genocide, which is simply ludicrous.

WP should not be used against civillians, but a battle was being fought. The smoke was to conceal IDF troop movements to reduce their casualties.
Only people out in the open during this battle were in any danger. from it.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 04:49 AM

"He should be ashamed of claiming to have found an original piece by me on the net, and maintaining the lie."
Me, me, me. Sorry - should have realised that a slur on your otherwise impeccable character was far more important than the fate of the Gazans at the hands of Israeli thugs - apologies.
Others have said what needs to be said about chemical weapons far more eloquently than I could - thanks especially to Foolstroupe for an expert opinion
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 04:58 AM

You still think it OK to lie just to try and gain a tiny advantage on a Mudcat thread.
And without shame!


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 05:06 AM

"Only people out in the open during this battle were in any danger. from it." ? ?

'On 4 January, Sa'adallah Matar Abu Halima and four of his children were killed in a white phosphorus attack on their HOME in the Sayafa area in north-west Gaza.
His wife Sabah was seriously burned and told Amnesty International that she had watched her baby girl Shahed melt in her arms.

Soon after the attack Israeli soldiers shot dead at close range cousins Matar and Muhammad Abu Halima as they tried to take their burned relatives to hospital.'

'At about 6am on 17 January a white phosphorus artillery shell exploded in the UNRWA primary school in Beit Lahia, where more than 1,500 people were sheltering.
Two children – Muhammad al-Ashqar and his brother Bilal – aged five and seven respectively, were killed. More than a dozen other civilians sheltering in the school were injured.'

Amnesty International Report 2010

"....one patient, a three-year-old girl, who was sent for a scan because of a head wound: "After about two hours she came back, we opened the wound, and smoke came out from the wound," he said. Surgeons used forceps to pull out a substance from the wound that was "like dense cotton and it started to burn," he said. "The piece continued to burn until it disappeared." The child, who was from Atatra, in Beit Lahiya, in northern Gaza, died."

deadly burns consistent with white phosphorus

NB 'Phosphorus burns carry a greater risk of mortality than other forms of burns due to the absorption of phosphorus into the body through the burned area, resulting in liver, heart and kidney damage, and in some cases multiple organ failure.
These weapons are particularly dangerous to exposed people because white phosphorus continues to burn unless deprived of oxygen or until it is completely consumed.' - Wiki

During Operation Castlead phosphorus was used in the densely populated Gaza City
Many people were 'out in the open' fleeing from attacks


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 05:24 AM

"Only people out in the open during this battle were in any danger. from it."

I'm sure we could raise a one way air ticket so you could experience the real civilian conditions on the ground for yourself. Probably not much chance of you needing a return....


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