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BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 10 - 03:23 AM
The Fooles Troupe 04 Aug 10 - 03:27 AM
The Fooles Troupe 04 Aug 10 - 03:29 AM
The Fooles Troupe 04 Aug 10 - 03:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 10 - 04:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 10 - 08:05 AM
The Fooles Troupe 04 Aug 10 - 08:41 AM
bobad 04 Aug 10 - 10:05 AM
Lox 04 Aug 10 - 10:43 AM
bobad 04 Aug 10 - 11:14 AM
Fred McCormick 04 Aug 10 - 11:51 AM
Fred McCormick 04 Aug 10 - 12:00 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Aug 10 - 12:27 PM
Lox 04 Aug 10 - 01:52 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 04 Aug 10 - 02:24 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 10 - 03:35 PM
Lox 04 Aug 10 - 03:47 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 04 Aug 10 - 07:08 PM
Lox 04 Aug 10 - 09:21 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 04 Aug 10 - 10:06 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Aug 10 - 10:26 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 04 Aug 10 - 11:02 PM
Jack the Sailor 05 Aug 10 - 12:09 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 05 Aug 10 - 12:48 AM
mousethief 05 Aug 10 - 02:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 10 - 03:14 AM
Jack the Sailor 05 Aug 10 - 04:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 10 - 04:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 10 - 05:16 AM
Lox 05 Aug 10 - 07:06 AM
The Fooles Troupe 05 Aug 10 - 10:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 10 - 10:30 AM
The Fooles Troupe 05 Aug 10 - 06:58 PM
bobad 05 Aug 10 - 07:56 PM
The Fooles Troupe 05 Aug 10 - 08:03 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Aug 10 - 03:32 AM
The Fooles Troupe 06 Aug 10 - 04:42 AM
Emma B 12 Aug 10 - 11:31 AM
The Fooles Troupe 12 Aug 10 - 10:37 PM
CarolC 30 Sep 10 - 10:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Sep 11 - 02:20 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 02 Sep 11 - 08:52 AM
GUEST,livelylass 02 Sep 11 - 09:14 AM
bobad 02 Sep 11 - 09:40 AM
Greg F. 02 Sep 11 - 09:47 AM
bobad 02 Sep 11 - 10:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Sep 11 - 10:03 AM
Greg F. 02 Sep 11 - 10:23 AM
Greg F. 02 Sep 11 - 10:38 AM
bobad 02 Sep 11 - 10:54 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:23 AM

Foolestroupe, you have not read my comments about cannister launchers in context.
You clearly did not read Lox's posts I was replying to.
We were discussing hand held teargas cannister launchers.

I must be one of the most conscientious readers of other's posts on this thread!


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:27 AM

"Israel and Lebanon both agree that Lebanese troops fired first."

Your 'absolutely objective' linked source of documentation for this sweeping statement please? The record you have already established here means that I can't just blindly take your statement as 'gospel fact'...


Of course one would expect one side to fire at armed enemy soldiers dicking around with machinery in a 'free fire zone' border fence area (the IDF have 'set the rules' by regularly shooting at anybody walking around on the opposite side of their fences - made their bed, one might say) ... only openly arrogant lunatics would walk up to a border fence in such a contentious area, and one is tempted to think that the poor guys hit were either set up by their superiors who gave the orders, or 'were stupid enough to ask for it' by standing around in the open in the circumstances (I'm reminded of WWI trench stories of stupid young British Officers who insisted on 'just taking a quick peek over the top' and getting taken out by snipers) ... and it seems to me that the IDF were 'testing the waters' by even approaching the fence line - what with all that high powered IDF hardware able to fire back so rapidly... the fact that an IDF tank was taken out proves that they were definitely there... and any tank is always seen as a 'threat' by opposing military forces.

I saw the footage of an IDF manned backhoe with its bucket over the fence line, poking at a tree growing on the fence line...

I have heard that 'it was a Lebanese ambush' - right, they planted that tree 20 years ago and have been staking it out ever since... hahahahaha! oh boy! talk about 'gullible' ...


Just how much hassle is gone thru in Korea when either side wants to play around 'trimming trees' in THEIR 'free fire' "No Man's Land"?


"Re the WP smoke deployment."

Ah the broken record replays.... nothing new said - again ...


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:29 AM

"you have not read my comments about cannister launchers in context."

There's the very limited bigoted 'context' you want, and then there is the context of the whole approx 2,000 posts that others of has have taken into account...


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:31 AM

"you have not read my comments about cannister launchers in context."

There's the very limited bigoted 'context' you want, and then there is the context of the whole approx 2,000 posts that others of us have taken into account...


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:05 AM

Lox, I am not gullible enough to believe either side.
You accept one side's claim without question.
Lebanon admits firing first.
We can believe that I think.

Should I have refused to answer Lox about tear gas launchers because he was being "bigoted and limited" ?

I am repeating myself on WP only in reply to others who keep bringing up the same old claims.
Why remonstrate with me about that?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 08:05 AM

Sorry Lox.
That was to Foolestroupe.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 08:41 AM

"Lebanon admits firing first."

Yep, they 'fired warning shots' to warn IDF personnel (with tanks and earth moving machinery) who were getting too close to the border...


... just exactly the same behaviour the IDF have used for decades to warn Gaza farmers working their land too close to the border....

An eye for an eye .... shoe on the other foot .... mutter mutter ...

You see those IDF guys were wandering around as if some invisible magical sky fairy had whispered in their ears that He had given them exclusive use of that land for eternity....

oh wait... silly me .... :-O


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 10:05 AM

We Con The World


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 10:43 AM

Bobad,

That video is disgusting.

Your attitude is disgusting.

The way the state of Israel treats palestinians is disgusting.


God bless all those Israelis, Jews, Moslems and Christians, who are working to stop the soulless callous compassionless hatred of people like you from the deaths of more hundreds of innocent men women and children.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 11:14 AM

You're way OTT there lox.

The "humanitarian" flotilla was a con job and the world knows it.

BTW you forgot "the way Hamas treats Israelis is disgusting" in your litany of invective.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 11:51 AM

I've been trying to stay away from this, but a news item I caught the other day left me far angrier than any sick and stupid videos such as We Con The World.

It wasn't the announcement that Israel has decided to repatriate 1,200 Israeli born children of foreign workers. After all, Britain and the USA's policies towards immigrants are often no less barbaric. Anyway, Israel's plans for its non-Israeli population have been common knowledge for quite some time now. No, what got me steaming was the reason for the deportations, given by Netanyahu; namely that foreign residents of Israel are "undermining the Jewish character of Israel".

I seem to recall a little Austrian corporal who said that non-Aryans were undermining the Aryan character of Germany, and then had them gassed in millions.

God damn the state of Israel!


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 12:00 PM

As an antidote to that awful (awful in artistic terms as well as being in apalling taste) here's a song which the liverpool Socialist Choir has added to its repertoire recently. It was written by Elain Ryan and Marie Walsh, and gives some splendid advice about how you can help the victims of Israel.

I don't know what tune they set it to, but it goes very well to the tune of Bye Bye Love.

The Boycott Song

To help the people of Palestine
We don't buy grapefruit or Israeli wine
And if you're wondering what you can do:
Please join the boycott and help them too!

Ch. So we say Don't buy dates
don't buy:) Don't buy Jaffa fruit
Don't buy Israeli wine
There's a boycott going on!
repeat

Their land's been taken and occupied
Their houses bulldozed and farms destroyed
The Western powers send arms with glee
While Israel acts with impunity.        

Ch

Check sweet potatoes, avocados too
if they're from Israel you-knew what to do
Just read the bar codes those little lines,
Things made in Israel start 7 2 9.        

Ch

Tell all your neighbours "Please don't be shy
Read all the labels before you buy
You have the power each time you shop
Israel's apartheid has got to stop.        

Ch


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 12:27 PM

The only people being conned are those that think things like "We con the world might have an effect."

The flotillas are not conning anyone. They are meant to draw attention by delivering humanitarian aid to people who need it.

It is Israel's reactions that are making the news.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:52 PM

Bobad,

I see you have deliberately forgotten that I have stated before, as I do now, that I oppose Hamas, both in the way they treat palestinians and the way they are attempting to deal with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

In anothger CURRENT thread to which you have contributed I have very clearly stated that I oppose the use of rockets aganst Israel.

Your deliberate insinuation that I support Hamas or the killing of Israelis is as slimy and disgusting as the videos you post.

OTT? ... You're gettting off lightly!

BTW - the last I checked, Hamas were not occupying Israel, they were not blockading Israel, they did not have thousands of Israeli prisoners in their jails on trumped up charges such as "stealing water from a settlement", they were not holding Israelis up on their way to hospital for hours or turning them away based on arbitrary medical judgements that they have no qualification to make, thus risking innocent peoples lives and in some cases causing their deaths, they were not preventing the import of food, medical supplies and things like incubators, and they did not have troops parading aggressively around Israeli residential areas acting as bullies towards teenage boys and children, nor were they knocking down Israelis houses.

I do not support Hamas - I oppose them - but to suggest I have omitted something when talking about how Israelis aree treated by Hamas is dishonest as Hamas do not treat Israelis any way at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:24 PM

Re: The Tree Incident

Go here to read comments of the UNIFIL spokesman regarding this incident. Additionally it show maps and pictures of the scene of the shooting.

It certainly seems that the UNIFIL version of this tragedy comports with the Israeli statements.

idfspokesperson.com/.../audio-transcript-of-israel-army-radios-interview-with-unifil-spokesman-milos-struger-4-aug-2010/

Spin that all you Israel-haters!


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:35 PM

Foolestroup thinks that such agressive pruning requires a use of lethal force against it.
Right Foolestroupe?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:47 PM

The question is how you are spinning it John,

The UNIFIL observer has given no testimony at all in the article you provded that supports either side in the argument.

His comments include:

""IDF informed UNIFIL that they are going to do some work cutting the tree from the other side north of the technical fence but south of the blue line. The situation on the ground quickly became tense because the LAF also deployed their forces on the ground. We also had our own people who were trying to diffuse this tension.""


ok - nothing there ...

"Tomorrow we will have a technical team to exactly establish the location in relation to the blue line.""

ok - so they plan to investogate ... no testimony yet ...


"Our investigation has been launched today…""


mmm hmmm - still nothing ...

"Daily basis we are dealing with all the different situations. Sometimes there are incidents and we manage to resolve the potential danger."


right ... so ... John? ... what was your point exactly? .....


Spin what?


And who are the Israeli haters?


Let me guess - people who disagree with you ... they are either Israeli haters, anti semites, or self hating Jews aren't they John.


God bless all those Israelis who disagree with John.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 07:08 PM

Lox, this thread is not about me, nor who agrees with me or disagrees with me. I have way earlier in this thread written of Israel bashing and anti-Semitism (not that I used that term earlier today--you did). I stand by what I wrote then, and need not repeat it. I don't accuse any particular member at Mudcat, but used 'Israel-hater' hoping some here might become a little bit more self-aware. 'Nuff said.

Now to your response to the link:
1-The Israelis let Unifil know they were going to trim the tree. Which trimming they had done times before.
2-Unifil told the Lebanese the Israelis were going to practice this horticultual activity.
3-The maps, which you ignored in your post, show that the Israelis were operating from Israeli territory.
4-The first shots came from the Lebanese--this is even acknowledged by a couple of posters, here, who, shall we say, are not exactly friends of Israel.

Unless I read or see anything that is substantially different, this will be my last post on the episode.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 09:21 PM

"3-The maps, which you ignored in your post, show that the Israelis were operating from Israeli territory.


None of this is corroborated by the UNIFIL guy.

The most recent press release from UNIFIL was on 27th May.

They have no official position on this skirmish.


Your link is to an IDF blog.

The blogger provides his own maps and has drawn on them.

I could do that and it would have no greater significance.


Spin?



You have taken the uncorroborated point of view of a wholly partisan blogger and used that as evidence.

If that isn't spin then I don't know what is.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 10:06 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/05/world/middleeast/05mideast.html?_r=1&ref=world

This is the headline and the lead:

"U.N. Supports Israeli Account of Border Clash"
By ISABEL KERSHNER
Published: August 4, 2010

JERUSALEM — The United Nations peacekeeping force in southern Lebanon, Unifil, said Wednesday that it had concluded that Israeli forces were cutting trees that lay within their own territory before a lethal exchange of fire with Lebanese Army troops, largely vindicating Israel's account of how the fighting started.
                         --- --- ---

I believe that the NYT is in the pocket of neither Israel nor the UN. In fact, I would characterize it as being generally hard on Israel when it comes to questions regarding the Middle East, and especially vis-a-via the Palestinians.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 10:26 PM

I don't know about pockets, but if you think the NYT is not pro-Israel, you have not read it.

I just saw a clip of Neil Cavuto of Fox News saying that the UN more blames Israel.

By the way everyone agrees that a tree was being cut. I just saw a film of an Israeli soldier in a bucket on the Labanon side of the border.

The Israelis now say that they built the fence on their own land and that the tree was also on their own land. How stupid of the Lebanese border guards to think that the Israeli was in their territory just because he was on their side of the fence separating the two countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 11:02 PM

Jack, please don't tell me what I think. I used the exact words I meant to use...NYT are generally hard on Israel. They just aren't as hard as many folks here..

I looked for your alleged Cavuto excerpt, but have not found it. But I did find this:

/www.foxnews.com/world/2010/08/04/israeli-military-uprooting-trees-near-site-deadly-clash-lebanese-troops/

The pertinent graphs follow:

"This time the tree trimming was followed by gunfire from the Lebanese army, apparently aimed not at the soldier hanging over the fence, but at a base some distance away, where a senior officer was killed by a shot to the head. Another officer was wounded. Israel responded with gunfire and shelling, killing two Lebanese soldiers and a journalist.

"On Wednesday the U.N. ruled that the tree, while across the fence, was inside Israeli territory. The U.N. drew the border line in 2000 after Israel withdrew its forces from south Lebanon after an 18-year occupation that followed its invasion in 1982 to fight Palestinian forces and try to install a pro-Israel government in Beirut.

"UNIFIL established ... that the trees being cut by the Israeli army are located south of the Blue Line (border) on the Israeli side," said force spokesman Lt. Naresh Bhatt."

You might also take a look at this Jordanian source which confirms the above:

www1.albawaba.com/en/main-headlines/unifil-israel-didnt-act-lebanese-territory

Further, Jack, your sarcasm in your last paragraph does you no service. It is okay to be wrong sometimes; it is okay to be sarcastic sometimes; but being both sarcastic and wrong at the same time makes one look pretty silly.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 12:09 AM

I think it is quite understandable that the border guards thought the Israeli soldier were in Lebanese territory. I did looking at the video.

I was suggesting to you that the ultimate problem was in the placement of the fence.

You are obviously Pro Israel your self and hypersensitive about criticism of it otherwise you would see that the NYT is pro Israel. Think about where the paper is located. It's market is very likely the most Pro Israel city in the US, by population. Do you think they do not reflect the views of their readers?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 12:48 AM

I think it is quite understandable that the border guards thought the Israeli soldier were in Lebanese territory. I did looking at the video.
   [You saw what you wanted to see]

I was suggesting to you that the ultimate problem was in the placement of the fence.
   [Funny, all the other times Israel cut down trees along the fence there was no problem]

You are obviously Pro Israel your self
   [Proudly]

and hypersensitive about criticism of it
   [No, I am sensitive to hyper-criticism of Israel]

otherwise you would see that the NYT is pro Israel. Think about where the paper is located. It's market is very likely the most Pro Israel city in the US, by population.

   [Jack, I'd be a bit careful with this statement. You're getting close to the 'border' here.]

Do you think they do not reflect the views of their readers?

   [Yes, I think many papers do not necessarily reflect the views of their readers. Today in California, a judge overturned Prop. 8. which had passed by a 56% or 58% margin at the ballot box. Every major California newspaper--including the LA Times--editorialized for that law being overturned. Please note, my reference to Prop. 8 is not a criticism of the newspapers; it is the most current example of newspapers bucking their readership.]


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 02:04 AM

Unless I read or see anything that is substantially different, this will be my last post on the episode.

Does this say what I think it says, viz, "I'm not going to post again unless you disagree with me"?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 03:14 AM

Israel built the fence.
To do that they needed access to both sides of it.
These things are always well inside the border. The old Iron Curtain fence was the same.
This fence had been there for years and the vegetation on both sides had been cut in the same way for years.
Everyone who patrolled the border would know all about that.
It comes as a surprise to Jack, but that does not signify.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 04:01 AM

John John John....

Do you really think a large percent of the people who voted for Prop 8 subscribe to Newspapers? I think not. "Liberal elite media readers" did not vote for prop 8.

I don't mind saying that a large percentage of the readership of the New York Times supports Israel for Religious reasons. That is a secret to know one. It is just demographics. I am not ignorant enough to assert that The NYT has no Bias towards Israel nor would I claim that the San Francisco Chronicle has no opinion about Gay rights or that the Miami Herald is neutral about Castro. These are business and they have paying subscribers and they are not going to say anything to harm their business. At the very least they with tiptoe diplomatically around issues important to their subscriber bases.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 04:34 AM

Here are the words of Milos Struga, the senior political advisor to the commander of UNIFIL forces on the border.
All you gullible people who always unquestioningly believe anything bad said by anyone about Israael, are starting to look silly.
http://idfspokesperson.com/2010/08/04/audio-transcript-of-israel-army-radios-interview-with-unifil-spokesman-milos-struger-4-aug


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 05:16 AM

One of you gullibles said the Lebanese would have had to plant the tree and wait ten years.
The Lebanese were given the time and place in advance by IDF via UNIFIL.
They brazenly murdered, confident that they could con the world that they were the victims!
They certainly conned Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 07:06 AM

"otherwise you would see that the NYT is pro Israel. Think about where the paper is located. It's market is very likely the most Pro Israel city in the US, by population.

   [Jack, I'd be a bit careful with this statement. You're getting close to the 'border' here.] "

Would you care to explain why Jack should be careful with this one?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 10:18 AM

"One of you gullibles said"

Stop looking in the mirror!


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 10:30 AM

Oh yes, it was YOU Foolestroupe who said,
"I have heard that 'it was a Lebanese ambush' - right, they planted that tree 20 years ago and have been staking it out ever since... hahahahaha! oh boy! talk about 'gullible' ..."


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 06:58 PM

"Oh yes, it was YOU Foolestroupe who said,
"I have heard that 'it was a Lebanese ambush' - right, they planted that tree 20 years ago and have been staking it out ever since... hahahahaha! oh boy! talk about 'gullible' ..." "

The inability to recognise Satire is a mark of low intelligence.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 07:56 PM

Carry on boys - delightful entertainment.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 08:03 PM

Oh bobad - don't applaud - throw money!


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 03:32 AM

But I do understand irony and sarcasm Foolestroupe.

You were sarcastically saying that it could not have been an ambush because the Lebanese would not know where to set it.

I turned the satire back on you because the Lebanese were told in advance where and when the Israelis were going pruning.

Any more sarcasm?

I will refrain from being sarcastic about your immediate, unquestioning, gullible acceptance that Israel was the agressor and Lebanon the victim.
But you were all wrong, weren't you?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 04:42 AM

"You were sarcastically saying that it could not have been an ambush because the Lebanese would not know where to set it."

You must be an idiot, that is is NOT what I said - it may, sadly, be what you heard - this is what is wrong with your arguments....

"I will refrain from being sarcastic about your immediate, unquestioning, gullible acceptance that Israel was the agressor and Lebanon the victim."

Wrong Again - Comrade Napoleon...

To (Mis)quote Orwell from Animal Farm...

But when Muriel reads the writing on the barn wall to Clover, interestingly, the words are, "No animal shall kill any other animal without cause."

Remember, comrades, your resolution must never falter. No argument must lead you astray. Never listen when they tell you that Man and the animals have a common interest, that the prosperity of the one is the prosperity of the others. It is all lies. Man serves the interests of no creature except himself. And among us animals let there be perfect unity, perfect comradeship in the struggle. All men are enemies. All animals are comrades.

Squealer: Do not imagine, comrades, that leadership is a pleasure. On the contrary, it is a deep and heavy responsibility. No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?

None of the animals could form any idea as to what this meant, except old Benjamin, who nodded his muzzle with a knowing air, and

"Ah, that is different!" said Boxer. "If Comrade Napoleon says it, it must be right."


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 11:31 AM

From the ongoing Israeli internal inquiry into the legality of the action of the IDF in international waters -

'The head of Israel's military has defended its troops' use of live ammunition during a deadly raid on an aid flotilla sailing to Gaza in May.
But Lt Gen Gabi Ashkenazi told an Israeli inquiry they underestimated the threat and should have used more force to subdue activists before boarding.

The general said 'accurate weapons' rather than stun grenades, should have been employed to 'incapacitate' people on the deck of the ship before the commandos rappelled onto it.

"We should have ensured sterile conditions in order to dispatch the forces in a minimum amount of time," he said.'

BBC news August 11

'STERILE CONDITIONS'?
Does anyone else find military euphemisms like this and 'Collateral Damage' more than a little disturbing?

The general added that the use of these 'accurate weapons' to ensure the 'sterile conditions' on board would have
"lowered the risk to our soldiers but it would not have prevented the tension... Once the decision was made to stop the ship, the conflict was inevitable."

The general's testimony follows that of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defence Minister Ehud Barak.
In their testimonies, the prime minister tried to shift some of the responsibility toward Barak, while the defence minister indicated the military did not execute the plan properly.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 10:37 PM

"Once the decision was made to stop the ship, the conflict was inevitable."

Yep. People tend to resist bullies, even those with big scary 'paint gun' weapons ... but that's what they claimed they were using... oh, sorry, that was proved a lie too, sorry, I can see how easy it is to get confused ....

"said 'accurate weapons' rather than stun grenades, should have been employed to 'incapacitate' people on the deck of the ship" "underestimated the threat and should have used more force to subdue activists before boarding" "We should have ensured sterile conditions in order to dispatch the forces in a minimum amount of time,"

=> We should used better weapons to kill them faster.

sterile conditions => everybody dead.

Why just not sink the bloody ships to stop 'blockade running' in a state of war then? Logic says less damage to those trying to stop the ships, surely...


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 10:02 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-A1PYgzMv0

http://mondoweiss.net/2010/09/un-report-israeli-interception-of-the-gaza-flotilla-was-illegal.html

http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2010/09/28/un-says-israelis-executed-us-citizen/


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 02:20 AM

We finally have the results of the UN enquiry.
They found that the commandos did have to protect themselves from violent attack but, strangely, the force they used was deemed excessive.
One issue debated here was cleared up though.
Both the blockade and the boarding were perfectly legal and legitimate.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 08:52 AM

One issue debated here was cleared up though. Both the blockade and the boarding were perfectly legal and legitimate.

Wonderful news, Keith! Time for a little celebration!

On another issue debated here the report says: "Israel's decision to board the vessels with such substantial force at a great distance from the blockade zone and with no final warning immediately prior to the boarding was excessive and unreasonable" (NYT). As nine people were killed, I think we can take it that "excessive and unreasonable" are weasel-words code for "murder."

But the internal politicking of the UN is really neither here nor there. Under the shield of US protection Israel doesn't give a fuck about the UN anyway. What Israel will find a little more difficult is that it is fast losing one of its last friends in the region, and one of the most powerful. Already fazed at the loss of valued buddies like the monster tyrant Mubarak, the 51st state is now burning its boats with Turkey.

Somewhat like the hardline protestants who assaulted children at Belfast's Holy Cross school a few years ago, Israel is now caught in an unhappy downward spiral. Its lunatic behaviour is making it increasingly isolated, and this will make its behaviour ever more desperate. Pity American presidents, who will dare to do no other than pander to the New York zealots.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 09:14 AM

Thread drift - for anyone interested:

The UN will vote shortly on whether or not to officially recognise Palestine as an independent state alongside the state of Israel. Most member states have indicated their support it. Although the US have made it clear that they will definitely veto the resolution, other nations bar the US who also oppose the measure - notably in Europe and the Antipodes - could still feasibly be publicly pressured into supporting the measure.

Nearly a million signatories so far - support the Palestinian campaign for statehood:
http://www.avaaz.org/en/israelis_for_pal_independence/


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 09:40 AM

Legal opinion challenges PLO statehood bid

Palestinians risk losing their rights under the new bid, as representation is called into question, legal expert says:

"A legal opinion highlighting the challenges and risks facing the Palestinian people in their quest for statehood has been obtained by Al Jazeera, in the lead up to the Palestinian Liberation Organisation's bid at the United Nations in September.

The opinion, written by Guy Goodwin-Gill, a professor of public international law at Oxford University and a member of the legal team representing Jordan's government in 'The Wall' case against Israel at the International Court of Justice in 2004, tackles the issues of Palestinian rights, representation, and the right of return, which may all be seriously affected by the outcome of the bid."

Continued


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 09:47 AM

Yup Keith - a legitimate (or should I say "legitimized"?) Israeli atrocity.

And hardly the first, or the last.

Business as usual


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 10:01 AM

Yup Keith - a legitimate (or should I say "legitimized"?) Israeli atrocity blockade and boarding.

Corrected


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 10:03 AM

Claims that the Marmara was fired on from Israeli ships or helicopters have been quietly forgotten.(It was paint, not blood Lox.)
The boarding was legitimate.
The boarders were met with "organised and violent resistance" according to the report.

That much is factual.
How the vastly outnumbered boarders should defend themselves from such an attack can only be a matter of opinion, and much easier to form such an opinion when your own life is not in danger.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 10:23 AM

Well Bo & Keith, dress it up with weasel-words any way you like.

It is what it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 10:38 AM

atrocity, n, 1: The quality or state of being atrocious. 2: An atrocious act, object, or situation

atrocious, adj, 1: Extremely wicked, brutal or cruel : BARBARIC. 2: APPALLING, HORRIFYING
3a: utterly revolting, ABOMINABLE. b. Of very poor quality. syn see OUTRAGEOUS

Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 10:54 AM

legitimate adj : accordant with law or with established legal forms and requirements

                        : conforming to recognized principles or accepted rules and standards

Merriam-Webster Dictionary


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