Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] [31] [32] [33] [34] [35] [36] [37] [38]


BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

michaelr 01 Jun 10 - 08:09 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 08:10 PM
Charley Noble 01 Jun 10 - 08:11 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 08:12 PM
michaelr 01 Jun 10 - 08:14 PM
Ed T 01 Jun 10 - 08:26 PM
Lox 01 Jun 10 - 08:29 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 01 Jun 10 - 08:30 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 08:33 PM
beardedbruce 01 Jun 10 - 08:33 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 08:36 PM
Ed T 01 Jun 10 - 08:38 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 08:40 PM
Ed T 01 Jun 10 - 08:46 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 08:48 PM
Ed T 01 Jun 10 - 08:54 PM
Lox 01 Jun 10 - 08:57 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 09:03 PM
Ed T 01 Jun 10 - 09:08 PM
Ed T 01 Jun 10 - 09:14 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 01 Jun 10 - 09:22 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 09:22 PM
Lox 01 Jun 10 - 09:28 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 01 Jun 10 - 09:32 PM
Ed T 01 Jun 10 - 09:59 PM
mousethief 01 Jun 10 - 10:10 PM
Bill D 01 Jun 10 - 10:23 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 10:52 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 02 Jun 10 - 03:03 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 02 Jun 10 - 03:06 AM
mousethief 02 Jun 10 - 03:32 AM
CarolC 02 Jun 10 - 04:02 AM
CarolC 02 Jun 10 - 04:27 AM
CarolC 02 Jun 10 - 04:55 AM
Emma B 02 Jun 10 - 05:22 AM
Ed T 02 Jun 10 - 05:53 AM
Ed T 02 Jun 10 - 05:55 AM
theleveller 02 Jun 10 - 05:56 AM
Emma B 02 Jun 10 - 06:41 AM
Bonzo3legs 02 Jun 10 - 06:47 AM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Jun 10 - 08:12 AM
Royston 02 Jun 10 - 08:36 AM
bobad 02 Jun 10 - 08:51 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 02 Jun 10 - 08:58 AM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Jun 10 - 09:29 AM
Stringsinger 02 Jun 10 - 09:35 AM
Ed T 02 Jun 10 - 09:43 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 02 Jun 10 - 10:01 AM
Emma B 02 Jun 10 - 10:08 AM
theleveller 02 Jun 10 - 10:12 AM

Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: michaelr
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:09 PM

Two separate issues, Ed. The majority of Palestinians in the Gaza strip voted for Hamas because they did not feel adequately represented by Fatah.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:10 PM

The solution is not complex, Joe. We are only made to think it's complex so Israel will be able to continue its ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians until they are all gone.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:11 PM

World opinion, for what it's worth, seems to be more critical of the Israelis than the Palestinians and their supporters.

The stupidity of the Israeli leadership at this point amazes me. What world do they live in?

Charley Noble


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:12 PM

Actually, the majority of Gazans didn't vote for Hamas. A plurality of them did. There were two different Fatah candidates running and the two of them together got more votes than Hamas, but Hamas won because they got the plurality. They are the democratically elected government of all of Palestine.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: michaelr
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:14 PM

Ah, thank you Carol for putting the orthopedic shoes on me.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:26 PM

"World opinion, for what it's worth, seems to be more critical of the Israelis than the Palestinians and their supporters".

I have found this to fluctuate...outside the clearly anti semetic folks (though I am certain they would be surprised that some find them so) and governments.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:29 PM

"I have found this to fluctuate..."

I have - amongst Israelis!


Not all critics of the Israeli government are gentiles and anti-semites.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:30 PM

The Canadian press has listed the names of three Canadians aboard the relief vessel. There may have been more, news of those aboard is slow in coming.
No report so far of injuries to Canadians.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:33 PM

Ed, public sentiment has been steadily shifting in favor of solidarity with the Palestinians for the last eight years or more. And it increases with every act of violence that Israel commits. This last one will prove to be the straw that broke the camel's back.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:33 PM

"During its searches of the Mavi Marmara on Tuesday, the military also discovered a cache of bulletproof vests, night-vision goggles as well as gas masks. On Monday morning, nine international activists were killed during the Navy's takeover of the Mavi Marmara which was trying to break the Israel-imposed sea blockade on the Gaza Strip"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:36 PM

All of that stuff was planted by the Israelis, beardedbruce. The entire ship, its cargo, and all of the passengers were thoroughly inspected prior to its departure.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:38 PM

Funny how world public opinion at any point is not always much of a factor on how events evolve...or are viewed in the future.

Lets take the USA enrry into Iraq...most folks forget the world negativity at the time.

Look at the IRA killings in Ireland.

How about Russia's many historic invasions etc.

The Germans and Japanese, once dispised, are now viewed as friends around the world.

And there is China....and still there is China.

"History (and world public opinion) has shown that whoever wins the battle(s) or war(s) will be branded "truth". This is the course of human events, has and always will be this way. It doesn't matter who was right and who's cause was just; all that matters is whoever wins the battle is now "right" and the loser was a "terrorist" and enemy."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:40 PM

By the way, Israel knows it hasn't got a legal leg to stand on. It's releasing all of the people it kidnapped, including those who so bravely defended the ship from the Israeli terrorists, and whom the government of Israel said they were going to prosecute.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:46 PM

"bravely defended the ship from the Israeli terrorists"

CarolC, you seem to clearly see things from one side. I admit, there is comfort in that. I wish I could enjoy such comfort.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:48 PM

It's true, Ed. I see things entirely from the side of human rights and the rule of law. And you're right. There is great comfort in that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:54 PM

CarolC. I can say with no hesitation that I do admire your confidence that from your vantage point, that you know all the facts...and can conclude all conclusions on this and related matters.
And as someone once said:
"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter."


"Keep your stick on the ice"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:57 PM

"During its searches of the Mavi Marmara on Tuesday, the military also discovered a cache of bulletproof vests, night-vision goggles as well as gas masks."

The whole flotilla has been deliberately transparent and completely open from the start, having invited international observers from numerous international government and media organizations.

The only secrecy in the whole story began when The Israeli Military imposed an information blackout.

These facts do not run consistent with the idea that the Israeli military has somehow exposed some kind of hidden agenda, but rather suggests that they have tried to hide something.

This makes the plausibility of the above quoted claim very doubtful.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 09:03 PM

Ed, there really is no room for quibbling on what constitutes human rights or even the rule of law. And I don't need to know everything myself. There are international bodies that are responsible for knowing those things. All I have to do is look it up.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 09:08 PM

And, then there is another perspective;
http://www.calgaryherald.com/opinion/Flotilla+fiasco+aboard+Mavi+Marmara/3096275/story.html


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 09:14 PM

And yet another perspective:
http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/06/01/gaza-clash-turkish-charitys-terror-links/


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 09:22 PM

The Calgary Herald is a part of Canwest Global, owned by Leonard Asper and his father Izzy; they support Jewish Zionist goals in the Middle East.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 09:22 PM

The first one ignores the fact that the Israelis opened fire before they boarded the ship, which makes the response from the people on the ship an act of self-defense. The second ignores the fact that not all of the boats were IHH, but all of them were attacked and kidnapped. People are entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 09:28 PM

The US Government used to class Nelson Mandela as a terrorist.

The fact that Fox news has supported this claim to be true of the activists on board the ship should be no surprise.



The calgary herald claims to have a video of activists with a gun.

I've seen a lot of videos of the attack now and none of them included a passenger with a gun.

When I see this alleged video I will believe it.


The ones I have seen aupport eyewitness testimony claiming that live fire was used by the IDF before they landed on the ship.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 09:32 PM

The Canadian Association of Journalists and the Quebec Federation of Professional Journalists have denounced actions of Canwest Global (Calgary Herald owner) as "a disturbing pattern of censorship and repression of dissenting views" and called for a parliamentary inquiry.
The Herald reflects Israeli Zionist and extreme right wing views. Nothing it prints on the Middle East situation can be accepted as valid.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 09:59 PM

So if you separate out (and ignore) all those with pre-set (vested) opinions (such as countries, journalists, media outlets and individuals who have strong and committed views one way or the other on Israel, Palestine and palistinian political causes, and add in vested interests like arabs, Iranians, muslims, jews) who do you have left to listen to?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 10:10 PM

Me!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 10:23 PM

"It IS complex. There are no "good guys" or "bad guys" in this problem, ..,"

They don't listen when I say similar things, Joe....why would they listen when you say it?

You now have BB and Carol C. at it again, this time with help. They will post alternate 'proof' until you close the thread.

Pogo Possum was right....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 10:52 PM

Nice personal attack, Bill. I bet it gave you a lot of personal satisfaction posting that.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 03:03 AM

""It IS complex. There are no "good guys" or "bad guys" in this problem, which has been going on for well over sixty years. Both sides are right, and both sides are wrong - and both sides have committed atrocities in the name of what they see as right.""

While that is all undoubtedly correct Joe, it still leaves a nasty taste in the mouth that one side has a twenty first century technology, while the other is barely halfway through the twentieth, and Western governments allow (even encourage) the vastly stronger playground bully to get away with it.

We wouldn't stand for that behaviour from our children.

Don T.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 03:06 AM

CarolC's contributions are concise, well made and well supported.

Always good to have debate that predictably involves such clarity.

I must confess I don't generally wade through the swathes of "cut & paste" from BB though (from Israel's 'The Jerusalem' on the first page of this thread, though the source was uncited in the body of the post), as I like to be able to trust - as far as is possible - that the reporting is objective.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 03:32 AM

I've also seen footage that serves as evidence that Israeli covering fire began before the first abseilers landed on the ship

Can you direct me to that? I could use it in an argument on another site.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 04:02 AM

http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=59257http%3A%2F%2Fwww.worldbulletin.net%2Fnews_detail.php%3Fid%3D59257

It's the first video below all of the still shots. It was the live feed with the correspondents talking about what was going on as it was happening. On of the English speaking correspondents says there are already wounded people. At that time, there were no Israelis aboard the ship. In a couple of minutes, they report that a helicopter is trying to land, and then you see the helicopter throw out the rope or ladder and Israelis start coming down it.

I was watching all of the live feed as it was happening and I was also posting developments to my facebook page at the same time, so I have a record of the order in which things happened, and that's how I remember it. I've also read an account from someone else who reports it almost exactly as I remember it, and they also say the Israelis opened fire first. Here's some of their account and a link to the whole thing...

http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/ISeekTheTruth?v=app_2347471856

"There, the reports continued, mainly in turkish again but I heard a few in english, and they said that they were waiting around, because they were trying to avoid going into Israeli waters in the night time, since a previous aid ship was intercepted that way in 2009, at night time. They wanted to avoid any showdown at night time, so they backed away and went westward, 90-100 km from the Gaza shores (still in international waters, which protects them from Israeli attack). It was said that the israeli ships turned back. The live feed resumed and you could see people still standing and walking around all tense with their life jackets on.

Around now the live feed was being interrupted every few minutes. It would black out, sometimes the audio would cut off, and then it would return. It was reported that this was Israelis trying to block the sattelite channels from the ships, but every few minutes it would come back. Suddenly, the feed cut off for about 5-10 minutes. I was at the Gaza Tv News page and someone said that 2 people were killed and 30 injured, I didn't believe them.

Suddenly the feed came back, but this time it was from a turkish news channel. It seems as if all other feeds were cut off except for the turkish media passengers. It was some reporters talking live while images of the events in the boat were also happening live. All you could hear was a woman screaming in a different language, and then for a while she was yelling "WE NEED HELP! DON'T ATTACK US! WE ARE UNARMED CIVILIANS! WE NEED HELP! 2 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED!"

After a while of that, it stopped and you could hear Quran being played, and afterward an announcement said "Please stay calm, please take your seats, we have 2 people killed and we don't want any more hurt". You could see people walking back and forth.

Then I saw images of a helicopter flying overhead the boat, and reports said that they were trying to land on the boat.

Then the live feed switched positions and it was now on the deck, you could see ropes let go from above, and soldiers descending one by one, the camera man was reporting that the soliders were opening fire at the civilians, and I actually heard many gunshots over and over. The camera man ducked and another had a shot of a soldier in a confrontation with one passenger, and then I saw soldiers standing on the top of somewhere, no one was around them but I saw one soldier shoot randomly. Then I also saw a group of soldiers standing near the end of a ship wielding guns strutting back and forth before going out of camera view."


Here are some testimonies from flotilla people who have been released and are now talking about it...

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/2010/06/20106193546785656.html


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 04:27 AM

I just got word that the European campaign already has the funds for the next flotilla, which will have more aid in it and more people.

The flotillas are just going to keep getting bigger and more frequent until it will become too cumbersome for Israel to continue the blockade.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 04:55 AM

Buy time for the IDF to succeed at what, exactly? The ethnic cleansing?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 05:22 AM

Ed asks....

"So if you separate out (and ignore) all those with pre-set (vested) opinions (such as countries, journalists, media outlets and individuals who have strong and committed views one way or the other on Israel, Palestine and palistinian political causes, and add in vested interests like arabs, Iranians, muslims, jews) who do you have left to listen to? "

May I suggest that you could do worse than listen to University of Sydney law professor Ben Saul – a man with a history of challenging human rights abuses – writing this week about the attack on the flotilla in International waters..................


"Israel's response to the Gaza flotilla is another unfortunate example of Israel clothing its conduct in the language of international law while flouting it in practice.

Israel claims that paragraph 67(a) of the San Remo Manual on Armed Conflicts at Sea justified the Israeli operation against the flotilla. (The San Remo Manual is an authoritative statement of international law applicable to armed conflicts at sea.)
Paragraph 67(a) only permits attacks on the merchant vessels of neutral countries where they "are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture".

Israel argues that it gave due warnings, which were not heeded.

What Israel conveniently omits to mention is that the San Remo Manual also contains rules governing the lawfulness of the blockade itself, and there can be no authority under international law to enforce a blockade which is unlawful. Paragraph 102 of the Manual prohibits a blockade if "the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade".


The background to that 'proportionality' rule is the experience of past world wars where naval blockades had devastating effects on civilian populations.

There is little question that Israel's blockade of Gaza is disproportionate in legal terms.
The proportionality rule requires an assessment of the military advantage against the harmful effects on civilians. Israel claims that the blockade is necessary to prevent Hamas from mounting indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israeli civilians.

The proportionality principle requires, however, that Israel's security cannot come at any price. A balancing of interests is necessary to ensure that civilians should not pay too dearly for the security needs of others.

Safeguarding the precious lives of innocents and respecting their dignity as fellow humans is the necessary burden that international law imposes on war.

That is why Israel reveals its contempt for international law when, for example in the past, its leaders have pledged to "destroy 100 homes for every rocket fired".

The harmful effects of the blockade on Gazan civilians have included the denial of the basics of life, such as food, fuel and medicine, as well widespread economic collapse.

The UN agency on the ground, the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA), has described a "severe humanitarian crisis" in Gaza in relation to human development, health, education, "the psychological stress" on the population, high unemployment (at 45 per cent) and poverty (with 300,000 people living beneath the poverty line), and the collapse of commerce, industry and agriculture.


Disrupting wildly inaccurate rockets from being fired at relatively underpopulated areas of southern Israel cannot possibly justify the acute disruption of the daily lives and livelihoods of more than one million Gazans. Nor is it lawful to seek to pressure Hamas by instrumentally impoverishing its civilian supporters.

Israel has further argued that it offered the Gaza flotilla an opportunity to deliver aid through the proper Israeli channels.

It is very difficult to regard that offer as sincere given Israel's track record. Israel's practices concerning the transit of goods through Israeli entry points has been arbitrary at best and deliberately obstructive at worst.

The UN notes that everything from crayons to soccer balls to musical instruments has been denied entry into Gaza – hardly rocket components.
Goods sit idle for months or are never delivered at all. In such circumstances, no-one could have any confidence that the goods would ever reach Gaza.

As yet, it is still unknown exactly what happened on board the flotilla vessels boarded by Israeli forces. Even at this early stage, however, some international law matters are fairly clear.

First, absent any intention by the flotilla to attack Israel, or any suspicion of piracy, it was unlawful for Israel to forcibly board foreign merchant vessels in international waters.

Secondly, such action amounted to an unlawful interference in the enforcement jurisdiction of the "flag-States" (countries of registration) of those vessels, such as Turkey.

Thirdly, it violated the fundamental principle of freedom of navigation on the high seas, codified in the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea of 1982.

Fourthly, under international human rights law, the apprehension and detention of those on board the vessels likely amounts to arbitrary, unlawful detention, contrary to article 9 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, since there is lawful basis for detention.

Fifthly, if Israeli forces killed people, they may not only have infringed the human right to life, but they may also have committed serious international crimes. Under article 3 of the Rome Convention for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts against the Safety of Maritime Navigation of 1988, it is an international crime for any person to seize or exercise control over a ship by force, and also a crime to injure or kill any person in the process.

In such cases, any claim of self-defence by Israeli forces is irrelevant. The treaty necessarily adopts a strict approach.

One cannot attack a ship and then claim self-defence if the people on board resist the unlawful use of violence.
Legally speaking, government military forces rappelling onto a ship to illegally capture it are treated no differently than other criminals.
The right of self-defence in such situations rests with the passengers on board: a person is legally entitled to resist one's own unlawful capture, abduction and detention


Israel has become its own worst enemy. It prioritises its own interests with a callous lack of empathy for others. It is simply unable to imagine the suffering it inflicts upon others, and treats harm to Israelis as the only game in town.
Its absolutism of mind and politics has crushing consequences for Palestinians.


Far from ensuring its own security, Israel is unravelling it: no-one should be surprised if Israel has just succeeded in recruiting the next generation of martyrs keen to attack it.

Absolutism, violence, and the evaporation of peace in the region will continue as long as the international community continues to handle Israel with kid gloves."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 05:53 AM

As to UN law, read the San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea (which this is), 12 June 1994

"A state, in a time of conflict, can impose an embargo, and while it cannot carry out embargo activities in the territorial waters of a third party, it can carry out embargo activities in international waters".

It seems permissible under rule 67(a) to attack neutral vessels on the high seas when the vessels "are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture."

So, it is within the international framework to detain a civilian vessel trying to break an embargo (which was the stated purpose, and it was widely reported) and if in the course of detaining the vessel, force is used against the forces carrying out the detention then that force has every right to act in self defense.

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce


It is submitted that it is just as logical to believe that those on the flotilla were not on a humanaterian mission, but on a mission to break the naval blockade, as the opposite case.


1) An Al-Jazeera report from May 28,(this is available online) shows activists on board before departing for Gaza, chanting Intifada songs aimed at Jews and praising martyrdom. Chants include "Intifada, intifada, intifada! Khaybar, Khaybar, oh Jews! The army of Mohammed will return!" relating to a seventh century massacre of Jews in Khaybar by early Muslims.

2)Israel offered to transfer the supplies on the flotilla to Gaza from Ashdod port through official channels, an offer that was rejected in favor of confrontation on the part of the anti-Israel activists. As flotilla organizer Greta Berlin stated: "this mission is not about delivering humanitarian supplies, it's about breaking Israel's siege."

3)The Marmara is owned and operated by IHH (which Israel and others see as being linked to terriorists, AKA freedom fighters. IHH is also listed as such by the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, a supporter of radical Islamic networks, including Hamas, and at least in the past, even global jihad elements).


It is also reasonable to believe that Iarael, who has a military blockade in place, has a right to board any vessel it believes is on a belligerent mission. Despite claims that those on board were only prepared to resist peacefully, when Israeli military tried to board Marmara, they were resisted and attacked by many onboard, precipitating the resulting actions.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 05:55 AM

"The Canadian Association of Journalists and the Quebec Federation of Professional Journalists have denounced actions of Canwest Global (Calgary Herald owner) as "a disturbing pattern of censorship and repression of dissenting views" and called for a parliamentary inquiry"
Q, please provide sources for that statement.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: theleveller
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 05:56 AM

There can be no doubt now that Israel should be classed as a terrorist state, for what else was this action but an act of the most blatant terrorism? The sinking of a South Korean gunboat by North Korea has been rightly condemned, but attacking civilians bringing aid to an oppressed and beleagured people is far worse. Israel should now become an international pariah - I, for one, will impose my own personal boycott on Israeli goods.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 06:41 AM

"The Canadian Association of Journalists and the Quebec Federation of Professional Journalists have denounced actions of Canwest Global (Calgary Herald owner) as "a disturbing pattern of censorship and repression of dissenting views" and called for a parliamentary inquiry"
Q, please provide sources for that statement.

Answer

The information comes from The American Educational Trust a non-profit foundation incorporated in Washington, D.C., under taxation provision 501(c)4 by retired U.S. foreign service officers.

"AET's founders included Edward Firth Henderson, the AET's first chairman, and a former British Ambassador to Qatar; Andrew Killgore, AET's first president, who was U.S. Ambassador to when he retired from theUnited States Foreign Service in 1980; and Richard Curtiss, AET's first executive director, who was chief inspector of the U.S. Information Agency when he retired from the U.S. Foreign Service in 1980.

AET's Foreign Policy Committee has included former U.S. ambassadors, government officials, and members of the United States Congress, including the late Democratic Senator J. William Fulbright, and Republican Senator Charles Percy, both former chairmen of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and members of its Board of Directors and advisory committees "receive no fees for their services."

The AET runs a website, Remember These Children, which lists all Palestinian and Israeli children killed in the current intifada (since September 29, 2000).
The website follows on from two booklets ("Who Will Save the Children?" and "Remember These Children"), which were published in conjunction with Americans for Middle East Understanding, Jews for Peace in Palestine and Israel (now merged into Jewish Voice for Peace), and Black Voices for Peace.[
- Wiki

In general, AET supports Middle East solutions which it judges to be consistent with the charter of the United Nations, international law, the Geneva Conventions, and "traditional American support for human rights, self-determination, and fair play."

As part of its educational mission, AET publishes the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, a 76-page magazine published 9 times per year in Washington, DC, that focuses on news and analysis from and about the Middle East and U.S. policy in that region. AET also maintains the Washington Report Web site.

"Unapologetically Pro-Israel" CanWest Imposes National Editorials on Local Paper

"When Canadian newspaper columnist Doug Cuthand wrote a column that compared the plight of the Palestinians to that of North American Indians, he knew he might provoke some debate.

"I pointed out that the Palestinians had the equivalent of land claim to Israel: they had been forced off their land and placed into camps—the equivalent of reservations. The parallels are really jarring," said Cuthand, an aboriginal Indian documentary filmmaker who has written about Indian affairs for the Regina Leader Post and the Saskatoon Star-Phoenix for 10 years.

"I didn't think they'd like it but I didn't think they'd pull it," he said.....................


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 06:47 AM

Rent a mob???


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 08:12 AM

Apartheid South Africa was also in some ways a complex problem, with people from different origins trapped in a tragic situation.

But there was no question that the apartheid regime had to be opposed, and had to be swept away.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Royston
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 08:36 AM

I'm getting pretty sick and tired of the same old USA, pro-Israel rhetoric.

IHH - A Turkish humanitarian aid organistion that has been active in just about every warzone and natural disaster in recent years. Particularly active in Haiti, for instance. Yes, they work on Islamic principles, but then the Red Cross or CAFOD work on Christian principles. No problem, is there?

Hamas - A fully democratically elected political party. Democratically elected in elections judged by USA and EU inspectors as fully free and fair. I thought Americans understood the nature and significance of democracy?

From the Guardian website today:

"The Israeli army has all but admitted that the activists did not have guns of their own before the raid. Army spokeswoman Avital Leibovich said two pistols were seized from activists but these had been taken from the troops raiding the boat. She claimed the magazines of both weapons had been emptied before they were seized back.

Speaking to al Jazeera she insisted that the force used by the troops was proportionate. "Any metal bar pointing at someone's head can kill," she said.

Asked to list weapons on board she said there were knives, scissors, night vision binoculars, many metal bars and sharp objects. She claimed they had been prepared in advance and added that throwing soldiers off the boat was not the actions of a humanitarian organisation.


So let us all be clear about who the players are and the truth that the vessel, and its passengers, were unarmed (save for whatever normal everyday objects were to hand (knives, scissors, metal poles etc) when they were attacked in international waters by people that opened fire on them from helicopters without provocation.

What would you Israel-apologists have done? Sat there and waited to be shot?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 08:51 AM

C'mon EdT, you should know by now that this has nothing to do with legality or self defense (nor with the delivery of humanitarian aid for that matter).

The pattern is pretty well established - Israel is provoked until it has no choice but to respond to the provocation thus providing those who hate them with another opportunity to condemn them and call for an end to their state. The response is Pavlovian as evidenced by the majority of posters to this thread.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 08:58 AM

"save for whatever normal everyday objects were to hand (knives, scissors, metal poles etc"

Did anyone shake their head when they saw photo's of the pitiful so-called "weapons cache". 'You're having a laugh' thinks I, six ships with seven hundred volunteers supposedly "armed" with handful of kitchen knives and some building materials, not to mention of course a jar of pebbles! Jesus, the Scouts would be more dangerously tooled up for bob a job week.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 09:29 AM

provoked until it has no choice but to respond to the provocation

Like in "domestic violence" cases...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 09:35 AM

There is a raft of Israeli propaganda flooding the US national media. The truth remains, Israel attacked an unarmed ship accusing them of representing Al Quaeda. This is an unmitigated lie perpetrated by the Netanyahu government. We will not know the details of this provocation since the Israeli government has put a blackout on how many were killed, what really happened and incarcerated the inhabitants on the Flotilla. In the meantime, Obama has stood by and allowed this atrocity to continue. Yes, killing unarmed civilians on a boat of mercy is an atrocity. This reactive stance by the Israeli government has to be interpreted as another example of the US condoning death squads in South and Central American and now in the Middle East. The only solution to the problem at this point is a complete sanction against Israel, a disinvestment strategy as was employed in South Africa and a boycott of Israeli products.

Obama is in danger of losing the next election. 1. BP   2. Drone attacks on Pakistan
3. Escalated military budget (more than Bush) for two failed aggressions against foreign countries 4. Not addressing the Israeli siege of Gaza and it's military response. 5. Siding with big business corporations on Wall Street to defeat reforms.

Rand Paul is the new dictator that may emerge just as in the thirties in Berlin.

Look for Israel to start WWIII unless the International Community is heeded.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 09:43 AM

"save for whatever normal everyday objects were to hand (knives, scissors, metal poles etc"

Try attacking the local police force, the military, or a riot squad with these objects and see if they react in a loving way. In fact, police forces in most urban centers (such as NY and LA) are as fearful as a knife as a gun. I suggest doubters view the NY police training film called "sharp edged weapons". I guess these objects just happened to be lying around on deck....ya right.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 10:01 AM

"police forces in most urban centers"

The point is, they *weren't* police in an urban city centre. And that they didn't find any real weapons of the sort that might be used to blow up Israeli citizens, like for example rocket launchers or grenades and so-on. In other words they found none of the kinds of materials that might just possibly have leant some degree of credence to their paranoid reasoning behind the attack on the flotilla.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 10:08 AM

"The response is Pavlovian" - well actually no it isn't

Frankly I consider it offensive to suggest that people who are deeply concerned about the humanitarian crisis in Gaza and the conditions reminiscent of apartheid in South Africa are merely the products of some kind of 'conditioning' and personally insulting to my intelligence to form my own opinion about social justice.

Certainly, if one looks at any of the previous threads on this forum whether about the treatment of Isreali Palestinians as second class citizens, the physical, social and emotional effects of an 8 meter tall concrete Apartheid Wall etc it is plain to observe a typical knee jerk reaction where any critic of Zionism, the illegal settlements (many even under Israels own laws) and so on is instantly branded an anti semite.

I would like to know where the Pavlovian reaction referred to at 02 Jun 10 - 08:51 AM is supposed to have been 'learned'

Are these posters all subjected to a daily diet of Hamas newspapers or Palestian supporting news channels?

Is there an equivalent and equal attempt to orchestrate propaganda efforts like that soliciting individuals to become a pro-Israel "media volunteer" designed to flood news websites and forums with pro-Israel arguments and information?

"Dear friends,

We hold the [sic] military supremacy, yet fail the battle over the international media. We need to buy time for the IDF to succeed, and the least we can do is spare some (additional) minutes on the net. The ministry of foreign affairs is putting great efforts in balancing the media, but we all know it's a battle of numbers. The more we post, blog, talkback, vote – the more likely we gain positive sentiment.

I was asked by the ministry of foreign affairs to arrange a network of volunteers, who are willing to contribute to this effort. If you're up to it you will receive a daily messages & media package as well as targets."

from Richard Silverstein's (a contributer to the Independent Jewish Voices essay collection A Time to Speak Out) article guardian.co.uk, Friday 9 January 2009


Well I'm prepared to put MY 'vested interests' on the line here.

I have Jewish ancestry
I cherish the thought that like a daughter of Holocaust survivors I could feel that the 'ultimate Jewish values' of 'compassion tolerance and rescue' formed and guided my principles.

I supposrt the organization ... WINDOWS - CHANNELS FOR COMMUNICATION...çìåðåú

a non-profit, joint organization of Jewish and Palestinian citizens of Israel and Palestinians from the Occupied Palestinian Territories.
Established in 1991, Windows promotes acquaintance, and understanding between both peoples, as well as empowerment of the youth with whom we work, through educational and cultural programs, media and art

My views are my own and I am NOT some kind of reverse hasbaranik with repetition compulsion.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: theleveller
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 10:12 AM

Oh dear, EdT, you're really struggling to find some sort of justification there. I suppose you'd be happy for armed troops to burst into your house and kill your family just because you happened to have a pair of scissors lying around. Don't be such a complete plonker.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate


Next Page

 


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.



Mudcat time: 27 May 7:30 PM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.