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BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

Emma B 03 Jun 10 - 05:50 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Jun 10 - 06:00 AM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 06:17 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 03 Jun 10 - 07:26 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 03 Jun 10 - 07:33 AM
Emma B 03 Jun 10 - 09:10 AM
Bobert 03 Jun 10 - 09:15 AM
mousethief 03 Jun 10 - 09:19 AM
Mr Happy 03 Jun 10 - 09:23 AM
Mr Happy 03 Jun 10 - 09:34 AM
Stringsinger 03 Jun 10 - 09:43 AM
Emma B 03 Jun 10 - 10:15 AM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 10:25 AM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 10:47 AM
mousethief 03 Jun 10 - 11:01 AM
Peace 03 Jun 10 - 11:13 AM
mousethief 03 Jun 10 - 11:23 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 03 Jun 10 - 11:30 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 03 Jun 10 - 12:03 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 03 Jun 10 - 12:06 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 03 Jun 10 - 12:11 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 12:18 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 12:24 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 12:31 PM
Roberto 03 Jun 10 - 12:53 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 01:04 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 03 Jun 10 - 01:05 PM
beardedbruce 03 Jun 10 - 01:10 PM
kendall 03 Jun 10 - 01:16 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 01:17 PM
beardedbruce 03 Jun 10 - 01:19 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 01:19 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 01:20 PM
beardedbruce 03 Jun 10 - 01:25 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 01:26 PM
Paul Burke 03 Jun 10 - 01:27 PM
beardedbruce 03 Jun 10 - 01:29 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 01:31 PM
greg stephens 03 Jun 10 - 01:33 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 01:34 PM
pdq 03 Jun 10 - 01:37 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 01:41 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 03 Jun 10 - 01:43 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 01:50 PM
Paul Burke 03 Jun 10 - 01:58 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 02:03 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 02:15 PM
pdq 03 Jun 10 - 02:17 PM
Emma B 03 Jun 10 - 02:25 PM
Paul Burke 03 Jun 10 - 02:25 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:50 AM

'Among the calamities of war may be jointly numbered the diminution of the love of truth, by the falsehoods which interest dictates and credulity encourages.' (from Samuel Johnson In The Idler, 1758)

So what is the reality behind the bombardment of information from the Jerusalem Post and the vociferous number of internet 'programmed posters' that Hamas has refused the delivery of the electric wheelchairs on board the Freedom Flotilla

Amongst the reports which state that a condition of negotiation about the disposal of the aid is the release of ALL the detainees from the flotilla without exception (some are still detained for 'unspecified reasons') it is sometimes possible to spot the comment by Ahmed Kurd, Minister for Social Welfare in the Hamas government
"We also insist that the equipment be delivered in its entirety."

The Jerusalem Post (part of the CanWest empire) reports that Kurd 'claims' the batteries have been removed from the wheelchairs

It is a fact that batteries are on the list of goods banned from import into Gaza - the lack of fuel for the Gaza power plant has forced hospitals to rely exclusively on back-up generators, which are not intended for prolonged use and are often damaged.
The replacement parts needed to fix them cannot be brought in so hospitals try to use Uninterruptible Power Supply devices to reduce the risk of power cuts on sensitive medical equipment; however, these rely on batteries.

So do we assume that the battery units required to power the wheelchairs have been impounded under the current ban rendering the 'delivery' of the chairs an empty gesture or that the Israeli authorities have suddenly had a total reversal change of heart under the scrutiny of the world or go along with the Jerusalem posts allegation that "This proves the whole thing was a provocation"?


Propaganda war: trusting what we see?

..."I have had several hundred e-mails about this article. They are more or less evenly balanced between those who criticise it and those who praise it. I think I have replied to all.

I would stress that I looked only at the Israeli side because of the new factor - Israel setting up a special unit to improve the projection of its arguments around the world."


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 06:00 AM

""I find it curious that people can find money for weapons but cannot find the money for Atmospheric Water Generation equipment which would benefit the population of the Strip.""

There were NO weapons aboard that flotilla!

And if they did find the money, purchase the equipment, and have it shipped over, I suppose in your fantasy world the Israelis would simply let it through?

ROFLMAO
Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 06:17 AM

That point about the atmospheric water generator kind of smacks of "let them eat cake" anyway. Even if they did have one, how the hell could they use it if Israel won't let them have enough electricity to run it?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 07:26 AM

"the Geneva-based UN Human Rights Council voted to set up an independent international inquiry into the raid."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10222131.stm

I'm a bit confused about this supposed 'independent' inquiry, I thought the US BLOCKED an independent UN inquiry, and instead successfully pushed for it to be conducted by Israel itself. Or is the use of the term 'independent' a fudge?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 07:33 AM

Ah, my fault. I'm muddling up the UN human rights council with the UN security council.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:10 AM

It is confusing.....

"U.S. President Barack Obama stepped in to save Israel yesterday at the United Nations Security Council from an independent probe of Tuesday morning's Gaza flotilla raid that resulted in the Israeli navy killing nine civilians. Hopefully, Israel will express its gratitude to our nation by continuing its freeze on settlements in the West Bank and negotiating seriously with the Palestinians toward an end to the occupation and a solution for Gaza.

But a U.S. 'no' vote could not halt another U.N. body, the Human Rights Council – the group that commissioned the Goldstone Report – from today launching its own probe of the botched Israeli move to halt a civilian humanitarian aid operation for Gaza."

- from a report by Eileen White Read
a former Wall Street Journal defense, technology, and communications professional for international NGOs in human rights, microcredit, and advocacy. Currently working on an anti-genocide project at a Washington, DC, think tank.

Read White AND the Jerusalem Post are already referring to this as Goldstone 11

In April 2009, the United Nations Human Rights Council appointed South African jurist Richard Goldstone to lead the mission of investigating war crimes committed by Israel in the war in Gaza between December 27, 2008 and January 18, 2009.

This report concluded that both Israel and Hamas were probably guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity causing Harvard Law School's Professor Alan Dershowitz to call Goldstone "a traitor using his Jewishness to malign Israel… He is an evil man, one who allowed himself to be used against the Jewish people, an absolute traitor."

The Israeli government refused to conduct an independent investigation of the report's findings.

A senior official in prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office said "Bibi is satisfied with the IDF's internal probe, the preliminary results of which were submitted to the United Nations" in early February.

The US representative at the security council discussions, Alejandro Wolff, has indicated that Washington would be satisfied with Israel investigating itself when he called for it to undertake a credible investigation into the murders on board the Freedom Flotilla

Ynet the Tel Aviv based newspaper reported -

' "Israel regrets the UN Human Rights Council's decision to launch an independent investigation into the raid before the incident ended.
Such a decision indicates politicization, not genuine concern for human rights," Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor said Thursday.
Members of the so-called forum of seven ministers, including Eli Yishai and Benny Begin, are opposed to the establishment of an international commission of inquiry and have called to wait for the IDF to publish its own findings.'

"We'll know how to investigate the raid from every angle and draw the necessary conclusions" said Vice Prime Minister Moshe Ya'alon


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:15 AM

Well, one thing is fir sure... Isreal is at yet another crossroads and bickering amoung themselves... That sometimes is a good thing... Hope the reasobale people don't get shouted down by their Military/Industrialists...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:19 AM

B. B. Wolfe said, after the raid on the chicken coop by a band of roving wolves under his oversight, "I know how to investigate this raid from every angle and draw the necessary conclusions."

Good grief. They don't even try to make their lies probable anymore. Who was it that said if you repeat a lie often enough people will believe it? The Israeli government has clearly learned the lesson well.

Also accusing the UNHRC of not caring about human rights is ROFLMAO.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:23 AM

As always happens in events of this nature, observers such as ourselves never are able to access the full facts & issues surrounding the incident.

However, what I've gleaned from overall info leads me to a conclusion thus:

The Israeli forces [I stress not necessarily representing all Israeli people as a homogeneous mass] violently attacked unarmed civilian vessels & their crews with military weapons.

The Iraeli PM & govt spokespeople in official statements justify these crimes as 'self protection' of their forces.

Pondering why it was necessary to kill people wielding sticks, knives whatever clearly protecting themselves, when there's other non lethal technologies available such as tear gas, tazers etc.

Consequently, its not a suprise I'm feeling [as most on here, & along with the rest of world opposition] that what's happened is murder.

I heard Bang Ki Moon of UN speaking on it, but sadly feel that group are paper tigers against the US/Israeli pact.

I could go on.............weep,,,,,,,,,join Amnesty International or similar..........


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:34 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_clash


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:43 AM

There is no confusion here. Mark Regev and the Israel and AIPAC propaganda forces are saturating the main stream news media with their distorted and lying stories about the naked aggression against peaceful demonstrators. Disinvestment against Israel is one of the courses that must be taken. The IDF is the new KGB or SS.

We'll see what happens with the "Rachel Corrie" when it tries to get through.

It's the same as what happened in South Africa. The people of Gaza are in a canton.
They need their civil rights restored.

Shame on Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 10:15 AM

'Next time we'll use more force'

'Navy prepares for expected arrival of 2 more activist ships.

Israel will use more aggressive force in the future to prevent ships from breaking the sea blockade on the Gaza Strip, a top Navy commander told The Jerusalem Post on Tuesday.

"We boarded the ship and were attacked as if it was a war," the officer said. "That will mean that we will have to come prepared in the future as if it was a war." '

From the article by Eileen Read White quoted earlier -

"Hasbara, or Israeli political spin, is actually already underway – a multi-million-dollar PR machine, involving government employees, academics, friendly journalists, consultants, and activists around the world. CNN reports that, after displaying "a willful indifference to public opinion for years," the Israel Defense Force is trying hasbara on the convoy killings story, posting a series of heavily-edited short videos of the situation aboard ship on YouTube, showing only soldiers being hit as they arrived on board – no footage of the soldiers killing nine civilians.

Israel-related media around the world are running stories about the commandos landing and shooting their paintball guns – with zero reference to the fact that their real guns killed nine people."

A brutal ambush at sea

"Navy commandoes slid down to the vessel one by one, yet then the unexpected occurred: The passengers that awaited them on the deck pulled out bats, clubs, and slingshots with glass marbles, assaulting each soldier as he disembarked. The fighters were nabbed one by one and were beaten up badly, yet they attempted to fight back.

However, to their misfortune, they were only equipped with paintball rifles used to disperse minor protests, such as the ones held in Bilin. The paintballs obviously made no impression on the activists, who kept on beating the troops up and even attempted to wrest away their weapons."

However the next paragraph ststes clearly.....

"One soldier who came to the aid of a comrade was captured by the rioters and sustained severe blows. The commandoes were equipped with handguns but were told they should only use them in the face of life-threatening situations."

The 'rioters' or passengers, as perhaps they should be more correctly termed, presumably were not expected to use self defence in 'life threatening situations'


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 10:25 AM

I've gone through a long process of figuring out where I stand on the subject of whether or not Israel should continue as a Jewish state. At first, I felt that a two state solution was the best one because the events of the Holocaust necessitated a place where Jews could be in the majority.

But there are many Jews who have persuaded me with their arguments, that a state with a permanent Jewish majority can never work. They say that Israel will have to implement a permanent state of ethnic cleansing and discrimination against non-Jews in order to maintain a permanent Jewish majority. I think they are right about that, but I still was having a problem trying to figure out how to address the needs of Jews that arose in light of past persecutions.

A few months ago, I finally figured out where I stand on this with no ambiguity in my mind. The Gypsies have suffered all of the same persecutions as Jews have, including their genocide and attempted extermination in the holocaust. And they have not experienced any of the gains that Jews have in the last century. Jews are one of the most protected, if not the most protected minority group in the world today. Gypsies do not have the kind of protection that Jews have today, so their place in the world is much more insecure.

So I ask myself - if it were proposed that some indigenous population somewhere should be permanently displaced and dispossessed in order to create an exclusive state for the Gypsies, would I support that? And I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that I would not. In light of this, I now know that I cannot support the permanent displacement and dispossession of the Palestinians in order to provide Jews with an exclusive state of their own.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 10:47 AM

I just got word back from my friend in Gaza. She went to a Hamas office and asked about what the Hamas position was in regard to receiving the aid. She said they told her that they wanted the aid to come to Gaza with the flotilla. She said they are sensitive to the reality that if they accepted the aid from Israel themselves, instead of letting the people on the flotilla bring it to Gaza, people would say that Hamas was keeping the aid for themselves (and we know that the hasbara machine would do exactly that, because they have done it before). And she said that the aid has the blood of innocent people on it.

Another facebook friend who was heavily involved with the flotilla has said that if the government of Israel really wanted to hand over the aid, they could do it without giving it to Hamas. He said that they could easily give it to NGOs to bring to Gaza and distribute. He believes that Israel will not ever hand that aid to any NGOs. He was involved in raising a lot of money to supply the Rachel Corrie, and he says he doesn't think the people of Gaza will ever see the aid from that ship either, or from any future flotillas. But the flotillas will continue nevertheless.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 11:01 AM

If Israel really wanted Gaza to get aid, it would let the aid that is currently being offered (before the flotilla) get through. Making bogus rules about nutmeg shows what they really want is to subjugate. Gaza is a ghetto.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 11:13 AM

`So I ask myself - if it were proposed that some indigenous population somewhere should be permanently displaced and dispossessed in order to create an exclusive state for the Gypsies, would I support that? And I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that I would not. In light of this, I now know that I cannot support the permanent displacement and dispossession of the Palestinians in order to provide Jews with an exclusive state of their own.`

North American native peoples would be very pleased to read that. In fact, your continued existence in North America speaks to the fact that you DO support the permanent displacement of previously existing peoples. As to who displaced who in the mid-East, check the history books.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 11:23 AM

There weren't a whole hell of a lot of European Jews in Palestine before the late 19th century. I checked the history books.

If Israel treated Palestine the way the US treats its indigenous peoples (which isn't great, I will admit) then the world would have a lot less opprobrium for Israel. If all the Indians in America were put in two reservations, one of which the whites kept shrinking and the other of which they kept in a perpetual state of poverty and disrepair by deliberately blocking aid (and nutmeg) from getting in from outside, then maybe your analogy would be interesting. As it is, it's facile.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 11:30 AM

"If Israel treated Palestine the way the US treats its indigenous peoples"

Well, it's arguably better now than it was during the period where the indigenous peoples were virtually exterminated by white settlers.

I'm sure no-body blames people innocently born on land violently seized and occupied by their forebears - no-body can bare responsibility for evils of the past - but I'd suggest we *are* all collectively responsible for the actions which our people/government/nation undertake on our behalf in the *present*.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 12:03 PM

My English Jewish friends (all descendants of Holocaust refugees) are ashamed of Israel. In fact they are the most angry "anti-Semitic" sounding voices I hear.

In the media, I've heard Jewish critics of Israel's behaviour "self-hating". It must be very troubling for people like my friends - those who see it as such - to witness echoes of the very same atrocities which their own grandparents escaped to England from, and then to be damned by their own people as a consequence of feeling that way.

I don't know, exactly what is it that makes the abuser, abuse? But it's even more perplexing on a collective scale.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 12:06 PM

EDIT: 'I've heard Jewish critics of Israel's behaviour LABELLED "self-hating".'


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 12:11 PM

Sorry, that was something of a thread drift prompted by a conversation I had with a friend of mine yesterday.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 12:18 PM

Who should I displace so that I might leave the US, PEACE? No matter where I go, I will be occupying someone else's land. I could just lay down and die, but I if I do that, I will be of no help to anyone. If I remain where I am and work to try to correct iniquities (even those being carried out against the native peoples of this country), I can make a difference.

I actually support the Native American movement to take back sovereignty of this country.

So spare my your hypocrisy, PEACE.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 12:24 PM

And by the way, most Israeli archaeologists and historians accept as fact that the European Jews have no historical or ancestral ties to the Middle East, whatever. None. Zip. Nada. I do not dispute the legitimacy of the presence of the Mizrahim. But the European Jews have no legitimate claim to that land whatever.

Having said that, I have not suggested forcing the European Jews to leave Israel. I am saying that all of the Palestinian refugees and their descendants have a right to return to their homes or as close as they can get to what was their homes before they were driven out, and the government should not have a specifically Jewish character. It's character should be neutral with regard to any particular ethnic group.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 12:31 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05bo1xh1JDo


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 12:53 PM

CarolC writes: "all of the Palestinian refugees and their descendants have a right to return to their homes".

It seems so reasonable. Many of my friends say the same thing. BUT. If we would adopt this idea for the many peoples in the World and in Europe that had to move away from their land and support projects of return, we would set much of the world ablaze. Much of Europe, at least.

We can't support Jews projects of return to what no doubt was their homeland before the Romans drove them away. We can't support the Palestinian in a similar idea. We must support the idea of giving both people, two peoples they are, their land and state. Dear CarolC, I don't like no religion, but today I must face the fact that at least for a long long time, not necessarely for ever and ever, one will be a state with a strong Jewish character, and the other a state with a strong Muslim character. In the first case, I must say that Israel has been able for a period to manage being the Jewish state and a laical state as well and the only democracy in the area. I hope the other state will emancipate from being a theocracy. But they can't be a single state, not now, in this very period of history, if we want to consider real situation and not only our ideas.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:04 PM

That is a thoughtful post, Roberto. But if you support a permanent Jewish majority in Israel, then you also support discrimination and ethnic cleansing of those in Israel who are not Jewish.

The Palestinians have a right to return to their areas of origin under international law and United Nations resolutions. Preventing them from doing so it a crime.

If the Palestinians in occupied Palestine decide that they would prefer a state of their own, I don't think it is my place to argue with them about that. But the Palestinian Israelis will still be facing discrimination and ethnic cleansing in Israel, and I can't support that.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:05 PM

"We can't support Jews projects of return to what no doubt was their homeland before the Romans drove them away. We can't support the Palestinian in a similar idea."

Surely no group can sensibly refer to supposed land rights from a Millenium or two ago?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:10 PM

1923- The treaty ending WW I created the states in the area- INCLUDING a Jewish Homeland.

Since some here think this does not matter , why don't we invalidate the other nations created at that time, by that treaty?

No more Syria, Lebenon, Iraq, Jordan, etc.

Or is it just Jews that get the shaft?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: kendall
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:16 PM

If the Israelis planted anything on that ship, seems to me it would be weapons, not gas masks and body armor.

Were any weapons found?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:17 PM

Jews can have a homeland without having an exclusive state, beardedbruce.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:19 PM

So you agree that the ARAB Palestinian Homeland formed from that same Mandate should be disolved, and Jews allowed to settle there?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:19 PM

By the way, the Romans didn't drive away the European Jews, because the European Jews' ancestors never lived in the Middle East.

Kendall, no weapons were found.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:20 PM

Sure, beardedbruce. I think Jews should be able to live wherever they want. As long as they live there as equal citizens and not as occupiers or colonialists.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:25 PM

Than you disagree with all the Moslim countries, whio have laws against that.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:26 PM

Show me the laws, beardedbruce. And not from a Zionist source. Show me the laws from sources that represent the governments in question.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:27 PM

1923- The treaty ending WW I created the states in the area- INCLUDING a Jewish Homeland.

The Palestinians (some at least of whom had fought on the Allied side in WWI) were not consulted on this, since they were merely darkish people who happened to be in the way.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:29 PM

"why don't we invalidate the other nations created at that time, by that treaty?

No more Syria, Lebenon, Iraq, Jordan, etc."


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:31 PM

We should let the indigenous peoples of the Middle East decide how their region should be configured in terms of nations and boundaries. It's none of our f*cking business how they configure their region.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:33 PM

But the trouble is they don't seem to be agreeing how precisely they should configure it. As I think we have all noticed for many years.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:34 PM

That's not any of our business, Greg.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:37 PM

"Jews can have a homeland without having an exclusive state..." ~ CarolC

Muslims are about 40% of the population of Israel. Claiming that the Jewish state excludes them is wrong.

"...the Romans didn't drive away the European Jews, because the European Jews' ancestors never lived in the Middle East." ~ CarolC

Jews lived in Russia and Europe for centuries but they still have ancestry that goes back to the Holy Land.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:41 PM

pdq, do you consider Israel to be "the Jewish State"?

And if it's not, why aren't the Palestinians who were driven from their homes allowed to return?

The majority of Israeli archaeologists and historians agree and accept as fact that the European Jews originated from a Turkic people who had an empire in central Europe during the Middle Ages, and that they all converted to Judaism en mass, when their emperor did. They never lived in the Middle East.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:43 PM

"but they still have ancestry that goes back to the Holy Land."

Mmm, many Americans claim ancestry that goes back to the UK, maybe English people aught to be barricaded into Cornwall, so you'ze all can 'come home'?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:50 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewMGq11wQFI&feature=player_embedded


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:58 PM

The majority of Israeli archaeologists and historians agree and accept as fact that the European Jews originated from a Turkic people who had an empire in central Europe during the Middle Ages

Probably only partly true at most. There was such a tribe (the Khazars); it's doubtful if they contributed much to the Jewish gene pool in the long term though.

On the other hand, it's pretty certain that many Palestinians are descended from Jews of Holy Land times. It's also true, but conveniently forgotten by Zionist enthusiasts, that it was the Islamic Ottoman Empire that gave refuge to Sephardic Jews from Spain after Ferdibella and the Inquisition expelled them, and to Jewish refugees from Bavaria a little before that. Jews had considerable freedom, and self- governing status, until the decline of that empire brought Western- style racial nationalism to Turkey.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:03 PM

Paul, I've already provided more than ample documentation from Israeli sources for this assertion right here in the Mudcat. It happens to be true. There is little to no dispute among Israeli archaeologists and historians that the European Jews are descended from the Khazars. This is accepted as fact by the majority of Israeli archaeologists and historians.

This is simply not in dispute to any significant degree.

On another note...

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65222L20100603


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:15 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRZi2jOqRho


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:17 PM

"The history of Khazaria presents us with a fascinating example of how Jewish life flourished in the Middle Ages. In a time when Jews were persecuted thruout Christian Europe, the kingdom of Khazaria was a beacon of hope. Jews were able to flourish in Khazaria because of the tolerance of the Khazar rulers, who invited Byzantine and Persian Jewish refugees to settle in their country. Due to the influence of these refugees, the Khazars found the Jewish religion to be appealing and adopted Judaism in large numbers.

Most of the available information about the Khazars comes from Arabic, Hebrew, Armenian, Byzantine, and Slavic sources, most of which are reliable. There is also a large quantity of archaeological evidence concerning the Khazars which illuminates multiple aspects of the Khazarian economy (arts and crafts, trade, agriculture, fishing, etc.) as well as burial practices.

(Origins) The Khazars were a Turkic1 people who originated in Central Asia..."


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:25 PM

"Muslims are about 40% of the population of Israel. Claiming that the Jewish state excludes them is wrong."

INCORRECT

As of December 2009. Of the 7.5 million inhabitants of Israel 75.4% of them were Jewish (about 5,660,700 individuals), 20.3% were Arabs (About 1,523,900 inhabitants), while the remaining 4.3% (about 319,200 individuals) were defined as "others"

About 35% of all Israeli Jews are recently (first or second generation) descended from European Jews

Most Arab citizens of Israel are Muslim, particularly of the Sunni branch of Islam, and there is a significant Arab Christian minority from various denominations, as well as Arab Druze, among other religious communities.



Israeli Arabs have generally remained moderate throughout the years; they have enjoyed the benefits of an advanced economy, but they suffer serious discrimination in housing, access to resources and political representation.

However, as has been observed
"The fear of ethnic cleansing among the Arabs of Israel is real and growing. The current Israeli government is reinforcing this fear implicitly by requiring this vulnerable community to become even more compliant, with recent discussions of the need for a loyalty oath.

Furthermore, Foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman has introduced legislation, clearly targeting the Arab community, which if passed would "revoke citizenship or permanent status from any person convicted of terrorist activity or of espionage on behalf of a terrorist organization".
Is there a legitimate reason to apply more pressure on the most moderate Arab community in the Middle East? Such moves will only generate radicals. Israel needs more allies, not adversaries."


In 2001, Human Rights Watch issued a report that stated: "Government-run Arab schools are a world apart from government-run Jewish schools. In virtually every respect, Palestinian Arab children get an education inferior to that of Jewish children, and their relatively poor performance in school reflects this."
The report found striking differences in virtually every aspect of the education system

According to the 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the occupied territories, "Israeli Arabs were underrepresented in the student bodies and faculties of most universities and in higher professional and business ranks.

The Bureau of Statistics noted that the median number of school years for the Jewish population is 3 years more than for the Arab population. Well educated Arabs often were unable to find jobs commensurate with their level of education.

The 2007 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices notes that According to a 2005 study at Hebrew University, three times more money was invested in education of Jewish children as in Arab children."


According to The Guardian, in 2006 just 5% of civil servants were Arabs, many of them hired to deal with other Arabs, despite the fact that Arab citizens of Israel comprise 20% of the population.[


Hostility to intimate relationships developing across Israel's ethnic divide is shared by many Israeli Jews, who regard such behaviour as a threat to the state's Jewishness. One of the few polls on the subject, in 2007, found that more than half of Israeli Jews believed intermarriage should be equated with "national treason".

Since the state's founding in 1948 a series of legal and administrative measures have been taken by Israel to limit the possibilities of close links developing between Jewish and Arab citizens.

As civil marriage is banned in Israel, in the small number of cases where Jews and Arabs want to wed, they can do so only by leaving the country for a ceremony abroad. The marriage is recognised on the couple's return.

However Israel's Parliament has passed a law preventing Palestinians who marry Israelis from living in Israel.
Israeli Arabs who marry Palestinians from the West Bank or Gaza Strip will either have to move to the occupied territories, or live apart from their husband or wife. Their children will be affected too: from the age of 12 they will be denied citizenship or residency and forced to move out of Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:25 PM

Carol:

Just one example of the contrary view, with a summary of DNA evidence.

That the Eastern European Jews were not mainly descended from Khazars is evidenced by the simple fact that they spoke German, also known as Yiddish (I'm very sad to have to write that in the past tense).

But that has nothing to do with whether Israelis (or Somalis) are allowed to attack ships in international waters and kidnap the ship's complement. Or that collective punishments are a breach of international law. Or that if you want peace, you'd better start being just.


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