BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:33 PM

Emma B.

And the statistics for the Arab nations? How do they treat their Jewish populations?

How have the Minority populations on each side increased/decreased since 1948?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:38 PM

"That the Eastern European Jews were not mainly descended from Khazars is evidenced by the simple fact that they spoke German,.." etc.

With respect to those discussing the matter of genetics, this is a substantial side issue. The question surely is whether or not (even were such a claim to such ancestry substantiated) current treatment of Palestinians is reasonable based on such supposed ancestral claims. Or am I missing something?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:39 PM

There's quite a lot to work with, but here's a sample...

"Wexler argues from linguistic and other evidence "that the Ashkenazic Jews must have consisted of a mix of Greek, Balkan Romance and Balkan Slavic, Germano-Slavic and Turkic (Khazar, Avar) converts to Judaism and their descendants and only a minority of ethnic Jews—many of whom in all probability came from other parts of Europe rather than Palestine itself." Wexler rejects the Khazar mass migration hypothesis on linguistic grounds, arguing that there was more conversion in place than migration. "Hence, contemporary Judaism is best defined not as the continuation of the Judaism which served as an antecedent of Christianity and Islam, but as a newly Judaized variant of European (mainly Slavic) paganism and Christianity…most of the features of Old Palestinian Judaism and Semitic Hebrew to be found in Ashkenazic 'Judaism' and Medieval Ashkenazic/Modern Israeli 'Hebrew' were latter borrowings rather than original inheritance [original emphasis]." This thesis has been obscured by philo-German and anti-Slavic chauvinism among scholars, Jewish and non-, of Ashkenazi Jewry, by disciplinary blinders, and by inertia."

http://theglobalrealm.com/2010/02/06/the-invention-of-the-jewish-people/

A couple of years ago, I provided a synopsis of Schlomo Sands' book on this subject and another mudcatter provided what they apparently thought was a rebuttal of Sands' main thesis, but when I read the review, its main problem with Sands' work was that he seemed to think he was breaking new ground, and they were saying that what he had published was already common knowledge among Israeli academics. I'll try to find that one.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:40 PM

The above linked article also addresses the genetics issue.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:48 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydAGnTo4KJo

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:48 PM

I thought a Jew was someone of the Jewish religion ... genetics is not a matter of religion.

this thread is evolving into lunacy. But then I suspected it would from the beginning.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:52 PM

Well, number6, I think there are a lot of Jews who feel differently than you about that. I happen to disagree with them also.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:54 PM

When the West Bank and Gaza are included, the Muslim population is 40.1% and Jews just over 50%.

When driven out of the Holy Land about 2000 years ago, Jews went to every corner of Europe and started new lives. Saying that European Jews are mostly of Turic descent is just plain silly.

Calling Israel the Jewish State in quite common among Jews but probably disliked by Muslims.

Muslims are officially a majority in 48 countries and hugely influential in 20-30 more. The Jews got a puny piece of land, Muslims got 400 times as much land. The unhappy ones should find a new place to live.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:58 PM

Well Carol, Some do ... and some don't.

Digging into genetics we would be surprised to find that we are very much all the same.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:58 PM

What would the world look like if the diaspora of all the worlds races reclaimed those lands that they once occupied two thousand years ago?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:59 PM

The Jews were not driven out of the Holy Land about 2000 years ago. The descendants of those Jews are still there in the form of Christians, Muslims, and Jews.

When the West Bank and Gaza are included, the Muslim population is 40.1% and Jews just over 50%.

How many of the Muslims (or Christians) in the West Bank and Gaza have Israeli citizenship, pdq? How many of them are allowed to participate in Israeli politics?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 03:00 PM

The America's would certainly look a bit different for starters. I wonder where the current European descendants would be housed? Alaska?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 03:51 PM

There's a book about the theory of Khazar Jewish antecedents. "The Thirteenth Tribe" by Arthur Koestler.

1) Koestler wasn't a historian
2) The book had negiligible historical data to fall back on and is a classic case of the undergraduate student thesis having a pivotal couple of chapters padded out with commonly perceived history (what we would euphemistically call 'extensive backgrounding')
3) Koestler had a lot of hypothesis and conditionally framed sentences and paragraphs. He had very little that was solid in there.
4) Koestler explicitly stated that the Khazar theories should not be used as evidence pror or con Israel's right to exist as a UN recognized State.
5) There was some other stuff in there about racial perceptions which was not historical but very much Koestler.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 04:09 PM

I guess it's a good thing for my arguments that I'm relying on the majority of archaeologists and historians in Israel and not on Arthur Koestler, then, robomatic.

That was a very strange non-sequitur and straw man argument you gave just then. Did you really think I was stupid enough to fall for it?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 04:24 PM

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/3/huwaida

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:01 PM

I noticed in that list of stuff prohibited from being taken into Gaza that it includes musical instruments.

Logical enough, I suppose - after all, as Woody Guthrie wrote on his guitar "This machine kills fascists".

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:09 PM

Are you sure you've got this right? The Khazars were nice to the Jews, who therefore went to live with them. The Khazars then all converted to Judaism. The Jews then all died out, and the Khazars turned into the European Jews, who therefore had no right to go back to Israel. Well, I can think of several queries, but the main one is this: if the Khazars were so nice to them, how come all the Jews died.
The other query is: are you absolutely sure that all Israeli archaeologists believe this?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:32 PM

I think you should go back and read what I've said again, greg. You are mischaracterizing what I said rather liberally.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:35 PM

In answer to your question, though the Jews didn't all go to where the Khazars lived. The Khazar emperor converted to Judaism and his subjects all converted to Judaism along with him. Those Jews didn't all die out. Their descendants are the Ashkenazim - the European Jews of today.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:38 PM

Are all of you guys coordinating how you're going to come at me to try to poke holes in what I say? The way you do it is so predictable from one thread on this subject to another. You always do it the same way, and you almost always say the same things or use the same methods. Are you all working for the hasbara people?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:44 PM

"The Khazar emperor converted to Judaism and his subjects all converted to Judaism along with him." ~ CarolC

Please support that claim.

And you know that all converted? Not even 12 that didn't? How about a few hundred? A few thousand? Perhaps most?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:47 PM

Carol: it's very simple.

(1) We (most of us) are very much opposed to the Israeli state's actions of the last few days.
(2) The origin of European Jews, while interesting, is not very relevant to that.
(3) However, since you brung it up, some of us think your version is a bit controversial.
(4) Let's talk about that stuff later.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:49 PM

Ok. In a minute.


On another note...

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/2/israels_explanation_for_deadly_gaza_aid

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:49 PM

Paul, I didn't bring it up. PEACE did.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:52 PM

And by the way, you really can't separate that subject out from Israel's behavior towards the indigenous peoples of the Middle East, because Israel and many, many diaspora Jews use that very thing as their central argument for what gives them the right to behave in that way.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 06:12 PM

Here you go, pdq...

"The Himyar and Berber proselytes are overshadowed by the Khazars, who ruled from the fourth century, along the Volga, and in the eastern Ukraine, the Crimean peninsula and modern Georgia. The Silk Road and the Don and Volga gave the kingdom a rich and flourishing trade, and means for a powerful army. While the "spoken Khazar language consisted of Hunnic-Bulgarian dialects with others from the Turkic family," "[t]here is no doubt…that the Khazars' sacred tongue and written communication was Hebrew." The Khazars converted over time between the mid-eighth and mid-ninth centuries, and for the same reason "that accounted for Himyar's conversion…[t]he desire to remain independent in the face of mighty, grasping empires…Had the Khazars adopted Islam…they would have become subjects of the caliph. Had they remained pagan, they would have been marked for annihilation by the Muslims…Christianity, of course, would have subjected them to the Eastern Empire." Conversion began with the elite and included the larger population over time. Khazar Judaism was substantially rabbinical, though Kairate Judaism, a Protestant-like sect which regards the Hebrew Bible as solely authoritative, may have flourished also."

http://theglobalrealm.com/2010/02/06/the-invention-of-the-jewish-people/

By the way, the Khazars are not the only non-Jewish population that converted en mass to Judaism. There are others did as well, and they are discussed in that article. So many of the other Jews who are migrating to Israel also do not have Middle Eastern origins.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 06:37 PM

"...many of the other Jews who are migrating to Israel also do not have Middle Eastern origins." ~ CarolC

Fine, but you stared that all Khazars converted to Judaism. Some did, some did not.

You implied that nearly all European Jews were of non-Semitic origin. Also not the case.

This is all part of a carefully-written scam. An attempt to say that European Jews do not belong in the Jewish State when they do.

Besides, how many countries exist by popular decree of the United Nations.

As far as who comes to Israeal fter the majority of the world's nations recognized it, well, it's nobody else's buisness but the Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 07:01 PM

"An attempt to say that European Jews do not belong in the Jewish State when they do."

No, a succesful and consistent demonstration that there is no historical precedent which entitled European Jews to evict and replace palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 07:34 PM

What possible difference does it make if European Jews are descended from Turkic Khazars or from people who loived in the Holy Land two thousand years ago?

In neither came does it give them any right to displace the people who were living there when they immigrated.

Even in a literalistic reading of the Old Testament, in which the country was supposed to be gifted permanently to the descendants of Abraham, that would include Arabs every bit as much as Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 07:52 PM

McGrath you are 100% right.

Unfortunately this point is a stumbling block in debates about Israel/Palestine.

It is helpful to be able to clearly distinguish and identify red herrings so that we no longer have to waste time chasing them when they are repeatedly thrown in to the mix.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:05 PM

pdq, the Ashkenazim do not have any ties to the Middle East. The article I posted says that also. The Khazars did convert en mass. They had good reason to do so, because becoming Jewish was their ticket to having a better life than they would have if they didn't. It's all spelled out pretty clearly in the article. None of the article disputes anything I've said, and it's all very much in keeping with accepted common knowledge among Israeli academics. The carefully written scam is the one what you have been taught to believe. You should read that whole article. You've been fed a pack of lies your whole life.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:07 PM

...the one that you have been taught to believe

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:36 PM

Here's some more background on that subject...

http://mideastfacts.org/facts/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=32&Itemid=34

http://themagneszionist.blogspot.com/2007/07/no-rivkele-there-wasnt-roman-exile-of.html

Paul Burke describes this accepted knowledge as controversial. It may be in countries like the US and the UK, but it is not regarded as being at all controversial in Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 10:25 PM

Carol C wrote:
I guess it's a good thing for my arguments that I'm relying on the majority of archaeologists and historians in Israel and not on Arthur Koestler, then, robomatic.

What you're relying on is a link. Ain't nothin' there any more solid than Koestler's little book which was not anything like solid. You are relying on your standard tactics of locating links that agree with you and leaning on them HEAVILY. and little else other than slamming your tired tactics out again and again.

But that's okay. Been there, done that with you before! And will again!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 11:10 PM

Looks to me like you haven't even bothered to read what was in the links, robomatic. And by the way, I didn't just post a link. I posted a link with information inside of it. And it's a hell of a lot more than Koestler, so we can all see that now you are just lying. Which doesn't really surprise me, since all you hasbaratchiks have to work with is lies.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 12:44 AM

What was this thread about, again?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:33 AM

It was about this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swg-nFZS6so

http://gazaflotillasurvivors.posterous.com/attack-came-in-three-phases-says-survivor-abb

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2010/06/putting-names-to-faces.html

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2010/06/03/mary-hughes-thompson-free-gaza-co-founder-flotilla-update-from-cyprus/

http://aliabunimah.posterous.com/did-israel-try-to-assassinate-sheikh-raed-sal

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 02:26 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cQ69oKFtVg&feature=player_embedded

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 02:39 AM

CC: "many diaspora Jews use that very thing as their central argument for what gives them the right to behave in that way."

While Jewish people might *call upon* ancient historic ties to this land as a justification for inhumanitarian actions against the present indigenous peoples, any such call - irrespective of whether or not it might be provable - simply *doesn't* justify it.

It's a moot point.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 02:59 AM

Unfortunately it's not a moot point, because they are able to garner a lot of support, much of it political support, and raise a lot of funds here in the US using that argument, and these are two things that make it much easier for them to be able to keep on doing what they've been doing, and much more difficult for anyone else to get them to stop.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 03:28 AM

Could we be spared these Khazars? All we need now are the Knights Templar, the Illuminati and a few Cathars.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 03:29 AM

CC "it's not a moot point, because they are able to garner a lot of support, much of it political support, and raise a lot of funds here in the US using that argument,"

For the sake of this incident I think it's a moot point, though I totally get what your saying. However many people may use it, and however powerful or influential they may be, they are still wrong to try to do so. No amount of supposed ancient ancestral ties to a land, can justify abusing innocent people.

That's like you saying to me 'Once upon a time, my great great great granny probably lived in your village in England. So it's fine for me to come over there, kick you out of your house, and starve and beat you.' You could come up with documents that PROVE your great great great granny once lived in my village, but it wouldn't make any difference. I guess many people would simply disagree with that though.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 03:38 AM

Aaagh! I'm causing more thread drift!
Think I'll quit it there...

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 03:42 AM

However many people may use it, and however powerful or influential they may be, they are still wrong to try to do so.

I don't disagree with this.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:22 AM

Crow Sister: you may say that rights to the land should not be able to be enforced 2000 years on. The trouble is, these 2000 year old bits of history are absoultely part of the present day politics. Israeli attitudes to Jerusalem in the time of David and Solomon, and Palestinian attitudes to the same areas of land, and Islamic attitudes to the Dome of the Rock, are all current realities. They are not just history, however much you would like to wish them away by rational thought.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:31 AM

"They are not just history, however much you would like to wish them away by rational thought."

They are red herrings which distract us from the real issues.

They are also based on mythology and heavily distorted historical sources.

It would be like the Irish claiming to have a right to rule America as St Brendan was the first European to get there.

A Red Herring, not provable and not even the most likely course of events.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:06 AM

I've been seeing reports that one of the kidnapped aid workers managed to hide three memory chips with video of what happened in her underwear and will be releasing them today. I don't know if these reports are credible, but I'll post more as I find out.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:15 AM

This is tangentially related because it happened at one of the many demonstrations against the flotilla massacre...

http://palsolidarity.org/2010/05/12604/


Not one peep that I could find about it in the US mainstream media, either.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:19 AM

""Muslims are officially a majority in 48 countries and hugely influential in 20-30 more. The Jews got a puny piece of land, Muslims got 400 times as much land. The unhappy ones should find a new place to live.""

Translate that, if you will, to men with guns and international power coming to where you live and saying "we are relocating these victims of persecution, and your land has been chosen. They will not merely live within your community, they will rule it, and if you don't like it you can go live with relatives or friends elsewhere".

How would you feel about that?

Then imagine that these newcomers began to expand into larger and larger ares of your land, and pushed you back into the least productive corner, then set about starving you out.

I strongly believe you would be out in the street with an AK 47 too.

That is the situation in Palestine, and no amount of spin will change it.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:24 AM

U.S. Jewish student loses eye at roadblock protest