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BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

artbrooks 31 May 10 - 09:16 PM
mousethief 01 Jun 10 - 12:07 AM
Charley Noble 01 Jun 10 - 08:38 AM
Richard Bridge 01 Jun 10 - 10:09 AM
catspaw49 01 Jun 10 - 10:37 AM
greg stephens 01 Jun 10 - 10:50 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 01 Jun 10 - 10:51 AM
Stu 01 Jun 10 - 11:02 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 01 Jun 10 - 12:54 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Jun 10 - 01:20 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Jun 10 - 01:21 PM
beardedbruce 01 Jun 10 - 01:21 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 01 Jun 10 - 01:34 PM
Richard Bridge 01 Jun 10 - 01:37 PM
beardedbruce 01 Jun 10 - 01:45 PM
Richard Bridge 01 Jun 10 - 01:45 PM
Roberto 01 Jun 10 - 01:46 PM
Stringsinger 01 Jun 10 - 01:47 PM
Richard Bridge 01 Jun 10 - 01:57 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 01 Jun 10 - 02:06 PM
beardedbruce 01 Jun 10 - 02:19 PM
beardedbruce 01 Jun 10 - 02:22 PM
beardedbruce 01 Jun 10 - 02:24 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 01 Jun 10 - 02:40 PM
Bill D 01 Jun 10 - 02:49 PM
beardedbruce 01 Jun 10 - 02:55 PM
beardedbruce 01 Jun 10 - 02:56 PM
beardedbruce 01 Jun 10 - 03:02 PM
Emma B 01 Jun 10 - 03:07 PM
Royston 01 Jun 10 - 03:11 PM
Paul Burke 01 Jun 10 - 03:39 PM
Paul Burke 01 Jun 10 - 03:42 PM
Richard Bridge 01 Jun 10 - 03:50 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 04:27 PM
beardedbruce 01 Jun 10 - 04:34 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 04:36 PM
Emma B 01 Jun 10 - 04:43 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 04:57 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 10 - 05:11 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 05:22 PM
Lox 01 Jun 10 - 05:24 PM
Lox 01 Jun 10 - 05:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM
beardedbruce 01 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 05:35 PM
Lox 01 Jun 10 - 05:37 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 05:39 PM
Ed T 01 Jun 10 - 05:42 PM
mousethief 01 Jun 10 - 05:49 PM
mousethief 01 Jun 10 - 05:50 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 May 10 - 09:16 PM

To those who wish to consider my comments as condoning an attack or defending disproportionate response to provocations...please read for a change.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 12:07 AM

"The Israelis said that the aid on that convoy would be delivered if landed at a regular port."

Is Gaza under blockade, or not? If it is, then the aid would not have been delivered and that's a lie. If it is not, there is no excuse for the raid. Choose your poison.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:38 AM

This is another sad episode in the seemingly never-ending war between Palestinians and Israelis. Both people in my opinion have legitimate grievances and aspirations. In this case the Freedom Flotilla was challenging Israel's right to blockade the coast of Gaza. As mentioned earlier above:

"Challenging a blockade is itself an act with military pretensions."

As I recall such action is exactly what the Israelis did to break the British blockade of Palestine after World War 2, as was dramatized in the novel and film EXODUS.

Looking at the Israelis video, it's certainly apparent that the rappelling Israelis commandos were indeed attacked with metal posts, chairs, and anything else that was readily available. It is not at all clear what action by the Israelis provoked the attack, given that the Israelis confiscated video by others (but some will surface soon, I imagine).

On balance I would assume that the Israelis will lose in this incident more from world public opinion that will the Palestinians and their supporters.

Such words of wisdom!

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 10:09 AM

I am not an expert on the law of the sea, but I suspect that the international protocols that permit aggressive action in support of a blockade only apply to a lawful blockade, and I am doubtful whether this one is so.

If war had been declared then the Geneva convention would apply and many many of the Israeli actions over the years would have ben contrary to that.

I understood Menzies Campbell to say earlier today that probably the law of the vessel was Turkish, so I am unclear that the use of automatic rifles against people armed with chair legs was lawful force. I suspect it was not.

Er - no, I don't think they were painball guns. Why on earth would anyone have been carrying paintball guns, and how would they have killed so many with them?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 10:37 AM

Why on earth would anyone have been carrying paintball guns, and how would they have killed so many with them?

Lead poisoning?

Y'all do realize there is no forseeable end to this? Over time even this will be absorbed into the history of the region. And when it comes to history of the region the faults of many over all these years make it impossible to ever agree on what can, will, or should be done. Nothing will.........

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 10:50 AM

I would not hav e liked toi be the first guy down the rope being greeted by the "peace activists".


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 10:51 AM

Piracy is the correct word for what happened.

Defending oneself against piracy in international waters is never a crime. The killing of those defenders however, is a crime, and one worthy of the severest penalty.

Israel is out of control, and unless the West stops supporting its illegal bullying of its neighbours, there will be a catastrophic meltdown in the region.

This is not a case of Jews against Muslims, and it should be made clear that this is so.

Two states are involved, Israel and Palestine, and trying to pretend that it is a religious conflict obscures the real issue.

Israel must be made to understand that it can no longer rely on the "Victims of the Holocaust" excuse for its current behaviour.

The Holocaust killed six million Jews, who were German, French, Polish, Hungarian, Czechoslovakian, Romanian, Russian, and on and on and on.

To try to pretend that they are all children of a single nation is nonsense. They share a single religion, and for that they were persecuted. That does not confer upon them the right to occupy an ever increasing portion of somebody else's country.

Israel is a State, and there is no other state which would be supported in annexing its neighbours' territory, by the Western nations.

It's time to tell them enough is enough, or we will have a war in the Middle East which will surpass, in ferocity, anything seen hitherto on this planet.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stu
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 11:02 AM

"Y'all do realize there is no forseeable end to this?'

Too true Spaw.

As a race it seems we won't be happy until we're all neck deep in the blood, piss, shit and gore of the millions of innocents who die every year as a consequence of some asinine philosophic, religious, nationalistic or economic action perpetrated by those without the wit or insight to even understand their or any else's own massive failings; who can't see beyond their own need to own, control and dominate. The sad thing is that buy and larger we let the bastards get away with it, scared of what the price we might have to pay for any real progress.

As for the UN - a talking shop for those poultroons, lickspittles and feckless tosspots who have to huddle together and reassure themselves they are 'doing the right thing' despite knowing they're not but being too afraid to let it all go for fear of what they'd lose. It's a commercial outlet these days, bereft of moral authority as those whom would say they serve/rule/occupy/oppress* us strike secret or unreported deals in back rooms in their ivory tower of glass and hipocrisy in NYC and then head downtown for a cocktail and a blowjob. They might as well, apparently they can't or won't enforce their resolutions unless it seems some sort of commercial interest is served; ask the Tibetans, an even more abandoned people than the Palestinians.

Fuck them all.

*Delete where applicable according to your countries type of government


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 12:54 PM

Piracy, as noted above, is the proper word. Those attacked defended themselves with whatever they had, but too bad they didn't have AK-47s.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 01:20 PM

Over time even this will be absorbed into the history of the region.

In the same way as Bloody Sunday and Sharpeville. Looking back, both those episodes significantly changed things. I suspect the same will be true of Bloody Monday.

I assume that there will be far greater support for a boycott of Israeli goods and so forth, analogous to that which contributed to the end of the apartheid regime in South Africa.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 01:21 PM

"Over time even this will be absorbed into the history of the region."

In the same way as Bloody Sunday and Sharpeville. Looking back, both those episodes significantly changed things. I suspect the same will be true of Bloody Monday.

I assume that there will be far greater support for a boycott of Israeli goods and so forth, analogous to that which contributed to the end of the apartheid regime in South Africa.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 01:21 PM

from this article.



"
Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman discussed the incident with counterparts from various countries, among them UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, EU High Representative for Foreign Affairs Catherine Ashton and German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle.

In his discussion with Ban on Tuesday, Lieberman stated that while 500 people were killed in violent incidents around the world in May alone, it was Israel that was being condemned - and for defensive actions.

The two spoke following Tuesday morning's Security Council resolution calling for an impartial investigation of the matter, as well as Ban's request for a "thorough investigation" of the incident.

Lieberman stated that the hypocrisy and double standards taking root in the international community regarding Israel were to be regretted, stressing that Monday's raid was a reflection of the rights of IDF soldiers to defend themselves against attack.

The activists on board the ships, he said, had prepared clubs, metal crowbars and knives in advance of the confrontation - obviously intending to take a strike at Israel's sovereignty. He added that in light of these facts, Tuesday's Security Council resolution was unacceptable.

'Distinguish between terrorists and freedom fighters'

On Monday, Lieberman told Ashton and Westerwelle to adopt an objective approach and make the distinction between "freedom fighters" and terrorist supporters like those who had been aboard the ships.

Lieberman told the two foreign ministers that though Israel had tried to conduct dialogue with the organizers of the flotilla days before the ships neared Israeli territorial waters, such overtures were rejected - as was a request by Israel that the organizers ask Hamas to allow Red Cross visitation for captured IDF soldier Gilad Schalit.

"What happened ... was pre-planned violence, and Israeli does not intend to allow any attack on its sovereignty by groups of terror-supporters and anarchists," read a Foreign Ministry press release.

Livni: It's impossible to directly compare Israel, Hamas

Kadima and opposition leader Tzipi Livni, meanwhile, expressed full confidence Tuesday in the "principles" of Israel's soldiers, which "remain unchanging even when they join the IDF ... and even when they take over a ship and are attacked and beaten almost to death on board."

Livni criticized the world's response to the incident, saying it was impossible to make a direct comparison between Israel and Hamas. "I understand the personal pain that is expressed concerning the incidents that occurred here, but there is not one democracy in the world that can generate a comparison between murderers and those who defend themselves or kill without intending to."

"Israel and Hamas are not two sides of the same equation," she stressed.

Finance Minister Yuval Steinitz said on Tuesday that in seizing the provocative flotilla heading to Gaza, the IDF acted with determination and courage. He added that Israel exercised restraint - sometimes too much restraint.

"Israel is a small country and needs to protect itself and there was no other alternative than to defend ourselves," said Steinitz at a ministry conference in Jerusalem on Tuesday. "It is clear that the real mission of the flotilla was not to transfer humanitarian aid, which could have entered through the border crossings at the Ashdod port. Instead, the real mission was to break the naval siege to Gaza. The water siege is not perfect, but [it is] essential. It is necessary to understand that a breakage of the siege would mean an increase in terrorism and rockets against Israeli citizens. We don't have a choice, if our country needs to protect lives, we must defend ourselves."

Steinitz added that the State of Israel last year transferred 1 millions tons of food and equipment to Gaza.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 01:34 PM

And Israel bombed out their buildings, killed many civilians and disrupted life for Gazans.
Then allows in a little food and medicine.

Gaza 'city' has over 400,000 inhabitants, the largest city in their occupied territory; the strip has 1.5 million.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 01:37 PM

The amount of aid that Isael permits into Gaza is I think about 20% of that recognised to be necessary even to rebuild teh buildings and infrasturucture destroyed by Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 01:45 PM

And the number of missles smuggled into Gaza, instead of food and medicine?

And the amount of aid that Egypt allows in? Please compare what THEY allow as oppoed to the Israelis- then tell me why there are NO comments about the "evil Egyptians"


Lets go back to the LAST borders that the Arabs nations agreed to- the 1923 partion ( By the UK, as part of the peace treaty ending WW I and creating Trukey, Iraq, Iran, Lebenon...) of Mandate Palestine into Arab ( Transjordan, 77% of the Mandate) and Jewish ( the remaing 23%) Homelands. Care to have everyone go back to that?????


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 01:45 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade

another discussion of blockade


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 01:46 PM

Israel made a big mistake. But the pacifists weren't pacifists, they were political activists supporting one side (Hamas Palestine and the whole world of radical islamism) that won't make any agreement with the other (Israel). Bloody Sunday and Sharpeville are not good examples, because at last they gave way to a solution good for every people. There's no solution but the destruction of Israel in the aim of Hamas and its supporters. Israel made a big mistake, but it is difficult to deal with a counterpart that denies your right to exist.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 01:47 PM

It's time for the World Community to disinvest in Israel. The Netanyahu Government have become the new Nazis. How ironic.

AIPAC should hang its head in shame.

Jews don't have to be Zionists. Many Jews worldwide reject the Theocracy that has become the State of Israel.

It's a long way away from what Ben Gurion had in mind.

The new Exodus must be out of Gaza.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 01:57 PM

For an Israeli perspective on blockade, which does not seem to conform entirely to the contents of my previous links, see

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Law/Legal+Issues+and+Rulings/Gaza_flotilla_maritime_blockade_Gaza-Legal_background_31-May-2


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 02:06 PM

The Mandate called for for the rights of non-jews to be respected.

Ben Gurion (1937) wrote that he was in favour of partition because he didn't envision a partial Jewish state as the end of the process. "What we want is not that the country be united and whole but that it be united and the whole country be Jewish (bold face mine).
He explained that a first-class Jewish army would permit zionists to settle in the rest of the country with or without the consent of the Arabs ("Letters....", 1971, Univ. Pittsburgh Press).

(From Wikipedia and Encyc. britannica)

The policy envisioned by Ben Gurion is being pursued. Destruction of Palestinian Arab homeland and domination of the Palestinian Arabs as a slave population is still the Israeli objective.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 02:19 PM

Q,

"The Mandate called for for the rights of non-jews to be respected."

The mandate did NOT allow for the creation of Jordan ( Transjordan) as the ARAB Homeland, with NO Jews being allowed to settle in that 77% of the Mandate area.

The remainder of the Mandate ( 23%, the Jewish Homeland) had NO restrictions on who settled there.

I guess you mean that ONLY the rights of Non-Jews were to be respected.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 02:22 PM

"Destruction of Palestinian Arab homeland and domination of the Palestinian Arabs as a slave population is still the Israeli objective. "


False statement.

Israel has NEVER threatened the existance of Jordan.

Israel has never used Palestinian Arabs as slves- that has been reserved for thier Arab brothers in Saudia Arabia, Kuwait, and other Arab nations, where they could live and work but never become citizens.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 02:24 PM

BTW, transjordan was given to the Arabs in 1923- a few years BEFORE 1937....


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 02:40 PM

In the formation of Israel, 80% of the Arabs were ethnically cleansed from the land by Israeli zionists and not allowed to return.

The refugee camps became the homes of the Palestinian Arabs and have been for many years.

Stateless people forced to live on charity, without hope, are slaves.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 02:49 PM

"""I have watched YEARS of copy & paste 'proof' of who was to blame for both general & specific conflicts in that area. It is as clear as who is to blame in Ireland, the Baltics, Indo-China, or street gangs in Los Angeles."""

...and here we go again!


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 02:55 PM

Q,

'In the formation of Israel, 80% of the Arabs were ethnically cleansed from the land by Israeli zionists and not allowed to return.'

1. they were invited to stay by the Israeli governement, and choose t leave based on promises by the Arab League that they could have it all after the Jews were driven out.

2. Nearly 100% of the Jews in Arab nations were "ethnically cleansed" , and resettled ONLY by Israel. 820,000 Jews vs the 640,000 Palestinian Arabs that fled.





"The refugee camps became the homes of the Palestinian Arabs and have been for many years."

From 1948 to 1967, the entire West Bank and Jeruselam were under Arab ( Jordanian) control. Please tell me who put the Palestinians into camps instead of letting them settle?





"Stateless people forced to live on charity, without hope, are slaves. "

So why didn't the other Arab nations allow them to settle, as the Israelis allowed Jewish refugees from the world over to do? They are the ones keeping the Palestinians as slaves.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 02:56 PM

"80% of the Arabs were ethnically cleansed "

And this figure is false.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 03:02 PM

""The refugee camps became the homes of the Palestinian Arabs and have been for many years."

From 1948 to 1967, the entire West Bank and Jeruselam were under Arab ( Jordanian) control. Please tell me who put the Palestinians into camps instead of letting them settle?

"



BTW, where did all the Jews that were in the areas controlled by Arabs go to between 1948 and 1967???

Care to enlighten me as you claim the Israelis should lie down and let the Palestinians cut their throats?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 03:07 PM

On 24th May in the Humanitarian Voyage thread, which received little attention, I posted a link to a Q & A article in the Gulf News which appears to be fairly prophetic

"Will Israel allow the vessels to enter?

Israel controls Gaza's territorial waters, and has warned campaigners not to attempt to break the blockade, saying it will use "any means necessary" to stop the flotilla.

Israel has, in the past, stopped the flotilla by ramming it with gunboats, towing it to its own ports as well as taking in passengers from international waters and detaining them.

The Israeli navy has reportedly been conducting practice exercises in order to block the Freedom Flotilla.
Organisers have said they are undeterred and are determined to continue.
The presence of high profile personalities on the ships gives the campaigners leverage over Israel, but the state has not hesitated to imprison prominent people in the past, including former congresswoman and US presidential candidate Cynthia McKinney.

Some of the vessels will be flying the Turkish flag. If such a vessel is attacked in international waters, a major diplomatic incident could follow"

thread.cfm?threadid=129679#2913025

In this thread I also referred to Gisha

"an Israeli not-for-profit organization, founded in 2005, whose goal is to protect the freedom of movement of Palestinians, especially Gaza residents. Gisha promotes rights guaranteed by international and Israeli law.

Gisha is operated by a professional staff and guided by a board that includes legal academics and practitioners, women and men, Arabs and Jews, who have helped shape Israeli human rights law through their advocacy and writings.

Gisha is registered in Israel as an independent, non-partisan, not-for-profit organization. Gisha is generously supported by donations from Israel and abroad."

Please remember that not all Jewish people support the Zionist movement or the settlements which are considered a "violation of international law" and approximately 100 of which do not even meet the legal criteria of Israeli law but represent a fundamentalist imperitive
Recognition of the second class status of the Palestinians in Isreal or the humanitarian crisis in Gaza is not anti-semitism!


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Royston
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 03:11 PM

You're right, Bill D

Simple fact is that something must be done to stop Israel from perpetuating this cycle of death. They *are* the new Nazis. They have squeezed the Palestinians into a ghetto where they suffer death by a thousand cuts - something that creates new generations of human beings who are dehumanised and have nothing to lose when they blow their own bodies up in order to hit back at their persecutors in some (futile) way.

For gawd's sake, if we (Britain) had behaved towards the USA-funded Irish terrorists as Israel deals with Hamas, where would that have go us all?

Like South African apartheid, we need boycotts and sanctions. We need to make Israel feel what most right thinking people feel - that it is a callous, bloodthirsy pariah state, evert bit as vile and bankrupt as North Korea or Iran or the Taleban. We need to take away its military - and certainly its nuclear - capabilities and send in an UN force to roll back its borders to UN-agreed positions and maintain a peace for as long as it takes for the groundswell of emotional support for Hamas to disappear.

And of course Hamas must be disarmed and policed. But that is easy. Be tough on Israeli human rights abuses is to be tough on the causes of Hamas. Enforce some basic fairness and Hamas will wither away.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 03:39 PM

The United States has blocked demands for an international inquiry into al Qaeda's attack on the World Trade Center that left almost three thousand people dead.

A compromise statement instead calls for an impartial investigation which Washington indicated could be carried out by al Qaeda.


Self regulation, that's the way to do it.



















Oops, I misread the report.










The United States has blocked demands at the UN security council for an international inquiry into Israel's assault on the Turkish ship carrying aid to Gaza that left nine pro-Palestinian activists dead.

A compromise statement instead calls for an impartial investigation which Washington indicated could be carried out by Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 03:42 PM

BTW Royston, much as I dislike Hamas and Islamic fundamentalism (and much as most Palestinians dislike fundamentalism too), don't forget that the Israeli blockade was a response to the DEMOCRATIC election of Hamas, in a process that was agreed by international observers to be free and fair.

The West can't preach democracy, but only accept the result if it's the "right" one.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 03:50 PM

I should point out that I understand the laws of blockade require blockaded ships from non-belligerents to be escorted to a neutral port


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 04:27 PM

Maritime Law

Israelis opened fire before boarding the flotilla (the live feed video evidence supports this testimony)


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 04:34 PM

The statement I hear is that the Israelis spent 6 hours telling the ships to stop and be escorted into port for inspection BEFORE they put people aboard them.

"I should point out that I understand the laws of blockade require blockaded ships from non-belligerents to be escorted to a neutral port "

Had the ships left the blockaded area and returned to a neutral port, they would not have been boarded. Si Israel is in accord with the laws of blockade.


I note the UN condemned the actionsof Israel immediately ( within hours) yet is NOW calling for a complete report and investigation.

Didn't the Red Queen act that way, demanding the verdict and execution first and THEN the trial????


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 04:36 PM

It doesn't matter what the Israelis told people to do. Under international law, they had no right to tell anyone to do anything at all in international waters.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 04:43 PM

"Had the ships left the blockaded area and returned to a neutral port, they would not have been boarded. Si Israel is in accord with the laws of blockade."

Whether you believe the sea blokade of Gaza is legitimate or not, and this is very debatable, the fact remains that it applied to the waters within 20 miles of Gaza and NOT to international waters which is where the flotilla came under attack.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 04:57 PM

It should also be understood that under international maritime law, the Turkish ship is legally considered to be Turkish territory. Turkey is a member of NATO. Israel is not. Turkey could, if it wanted to, consider the attack on its territory in international waters an act of war, subject to Article V of NATO, which obligates the other NATO members to come to its assistance when attacked by a non-NATO country.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:11 PM

Israel's Sharpville - no less.
And they crouch behind the dead of Auschwitz to excuse such actions.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:22 PM

Meanwhile, the Rachel Corrie is now on its way to Gaza, and a new humanitarian aid flotilla is being gotten ready to make another attempt to break the blockade.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:24 PM

"Didn't the Red Queen act that way, demanding the verdict and execution first and THEN the trial????"

Execution?

How many Israelis were executed?

None?

How many civilians were executed by the Israelis?

19?


That number is higher than the number of Israelis who died in the alleged "war" of january 2009.


Bruce, I think your choice of words and indeed analogy could have been better.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:30 PM

"Meanwhile, the Rachel Corrie is now on its way to Gaza, and a new humanitarian aid flotilla is being gotten ready to make another attempt to break the blockade."

And I pray that the Turkish Government and all other Governments, including the Israeli government, stay the hell out of it.

Israel can withstand any military assault - in fact any such offensive makes them stronger.

However they are powerless in the face of a transparent humanitarian campaign, and can have no answer to civil disobedience.

The key for Gaza is No-Violent Non-Cooperation.

Rachel Corrie may yet do some bulldozing of her own and help bring down the wall from beyond the grave.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM

If a blockade were imposed on Israel that would have the same legal status as the blockade by Israel on the Gaza strip.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM

Lox

The number is presently reported as 10 dead.

Too many, as all agree- but the determination of who attacked who is still to be determined. There was resistance only on one ship- and the video shows the passengers attacking the commandos as they came aboard.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:35 PM

The live feed shows people being attacked and it shows wounded members of the flotilla prior to any of the Israelis landing. The Israeli government video only shows what happened after they landed. The live feed shows what happened before they landed. This is indisputable proof that the Israelis opened fire before landing.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:37 PM

"The number is presently reported as 10 dead."

Depends on the report.

Doctors working on the scene have suggested as many as 15 died.

Early reports from ISRAELI media sources suggested 19.


"There was resistance only on one ship- and the video shows the passengers attacking the commandos as they came aboard."


The cameras can't see the bullets.

There is testimony that there were bullets flying before the troops landed.

Bear in mind that the Israelis imposed a blackout when they attacked, up until which pointthe flotilla had been entirely transparent in every respect.

The only secrecy has been that imposed by the Israeli military.

The Israelis can't imprison everyone who was on the ship.

So far they control all the information.

This will not last.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:39 PM

Having said that, however, under international maritime law, the people on the flotilla ships had an absolute right to defend themselves against the Israeli invasion of their ships and their attempt to take them over. The act of boarding the ships without permission was in itself an act of aggression that is illegal under international maritime law.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:42 PM

When I reflect on the Turkey, (Turks, Kurds and Armenians), I cannot put events of 1915 the G-word out of my mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:49 PM

Gee, who attacked whom? Did the blockade runners board the Israeli ships, or did the Israelis board the blockade runners' ships? There's your answer.

You're wrong, Spaw, there is a forseeable end to this, which Israel has been steadily working toward for 60 years. Chomp off larger and larger chunks of the West Bank until there's nowhere for the Palestinians to live and no way for them to make a living. They all go somewhere else. Then start doing the same for Gaza (if anybody is still alive there after the starvation blockade). Problem solved.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:50 PM

Have to agree, Ed T, the Turks should have kept the hell out of it.


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