BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:40 PM

Yes, I saw that, Keith. But the cameraman is making that assumption based on the fact that he has seen red paint from paint pellets. I expect that is why the Israelis used red paint... so that people would be confused about what they see. In fact, there is blood in the videos that we know for sure is blood, that is the exact same color as the paint in the pellets. But paint from paint pellets doesn't behave in that way, so I think we can safely say that the cameraman is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:42 PM

" I do not support artificially maintaining a majority of any one group in either state."

So you agree that the Jews can settle in Jordan, as it was split off from the original Mandate Palestine and reserved for ONLY Arab Moslims?


And the Arab Christian Palestinians who were driven out of Ramallah in 1948 can reclaim their land, and the Moslims who are there now will all go away?

Tell me how this works again.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:44 PM

The Two-State solution as conceived by the UN (Resolution number 181, 29.11.1947): "Independent Arab and Jewish States and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem".

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:47 PM

"so I think we can safely say that the cameraman is wrong."

He was there. Why should we believe you over him?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:53 PM

And would Jordan remain an ARAB state, and have an Arab Moslim majority?

beardedbruce, how many times do I have to answer this question before you will accept my answer? I have already answered this one many dozens of times, and yet you keep asking it. Why is that?


re the pellets- the glass would cause clumping of paint

This refutes your own position, then, because the paint is not clumping. It is running freely downward in long drips.


I did NOT say it would be what you say you saw. THAT seems to be a thinner liquid than the normal paint, such as the marking dye I commented it might be- at least from your description

Nothing is being marked in that area. And the quantities are not consistent with dye being used to mark something. You say "what you say you saw". Have you watched the high resolution video I posted? I don't just say I saw it. It's actually there for anyone to see.

Try the following: take a bunch of ballons- put water with dye in some, paint in others, and paint and some sand in others. Drop them from a standard height, and see the splash patterns. Now, which looks MOST like what you claim you see?

Have you watched the video I posted? The blood is dripping down from the opening of hatch. There is no impact point in the video. It's leaking down from an open hatch. The only way that could happen would be to have large quantities of the substance that is being sprayed or poured from the deck above. One way this could happen would be for someone to be shot in an area that causes blood to be sprayed or to gush from a wound. There are reports that the fist person shot was shot in the top of his head. This could result in a spray of blood. Other people were shot in their arteries. This could result in a spray of blood. Or someone bleeding might by lying next to the hatch and their blood could be pooling on the deck surface next to the hatch and blood would be dripping down from that. People did report that the decks were covered in blood. But none of the scenarios you are imagining would produce enough fluid to do what this fluid is doing. And pictures that are verifiably blood have exactly the same color and consistency of the fluid dripping down from the hatch, so you can't say that it is not consistent with the color and consistency of blood.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 12:59 PM

"re the pellets- the glass would cause clumping of paint

This refutes your own position, then, because the paint is not clumping. It is running freely downward in long drips.


It does NOT refute MY position, it refutes YOURS. I DID NOT SAY WHAT THE IMPACT LOOKED LIKE- YOU DID.


If it does NOT look like that, then YOU were mistaken in claiming it HAD glass fragments.

SO, the beatings of the Israeli IDF members don't cause any blood? YOU have proof that this was NOT Israeli blood dripping down from the deck above, perhaps from the IDF member who will have permanant brain damage from the beating your "Peace" activists gave hime???

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 01:00 PM

The Two-State solution as conceived by the UN (Resolution number 181, 29.11.1947): "Independent Arab and Jewish States and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem".

I conclude from this that you want Israel to be a "Jewish state", and I am inferring that by "Jewish state", you mean a state that maintains a Jewish majority. Please correct me if I am wrong about this, but you are not being very direct in your answers.

If this is the case, and you do support maintaining a Jewish majority in Israel, then I was right that you do support supremacism in Israel. Supremacism is a racist ideology and practice. So I wasn't wrong when I used the term racism in reference to what you support in Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 01:05 PM

"re the pellets- the glass would cause clumping of paint

This refutes your own position, then, because the paint is not clumping. It is running freely downward in long drips.


It does NOT refute MY position, it refutes YOURS. I DID NOT SAY WHAT THE IMPACT LOOKED LIKE- YOU DID.

This is incorrect. You are saying that glass fragments would cause clumping, and that means that the dripping pattern of the paint proves that the glass would cause clumping. I am saying that you are wrong when you say that glass would cause clumping, because there is no clumping. There is only dripping.


SO, the beatings of the Israeli IDF members don't cause any blood?

Not that much blood, by any stretch of the imagination. However, there were no Israelis on board the ship at the time that this footage was taken. That's why it proves that the Israelis fired first. Nice try - no cigar.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 01:13 PM

CarolC: Good grief!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 01:17 PM

In what way am I wrong, Roberto?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 01:17 PM

Ok. It's been an interesting experience discussing with a sectarian. So long.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 01:20 PM

Roberto, I am advocating a country or countries in which NO groups are privileged over any other groups. That makes me NON-sectarian.

You are advocating privileging one group over all other groups. That makes YOU the sectarian.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 07:19 PM

Bruce,

You're missing a big point here.


Paint pellets, upon impact with a hard surface, will splatter in all directions.

Paint pellets containing glass, upon impact with a hard surface, will splatter in all directions.


In both cases you will see the point of impact with splatter radiating out from its centre in a circle.


So your alleged point above, in which you purport to have discovered a flaw in Carols argument is a waste of your time.



We know that if it is blood, it isn't from an Israeli trooper, as they weren't on the ship yet.

And it appears very likely that it isn't paint from a paint ball as there is far too much and it hasn't splatted, but has sprayed.


The idea that the night-vision video was faked is new to me, but before this idea being floated, it was already pretty clear to me that the IDF fired before they landed.


It seems that the IDF faked two other videos, one being the video of the boat being sprayed with water, and the other of the man walking through the metal post.

It is also pretty clear to me that the 'weapons cache' photos were fake, and that the Mavi Marmara "9/11" radio communication was faked.


It wouldn't be incongruous if the night-vision film had been faked.

Of course that doesn't prove anything on its own.

But an interesting point to consider is, that if it is genuine, it would be the only apparent bit of IDF provided evidence not to be discredited.

I'm curious to know more about allegations that it was filmed on the Mavi Marmaras sister ship.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 07:19 PM

""you are simply not qualified to comment on our attitudes, because you know nothing about us. However, we are in a position to note that you are a determined apologist for the Israeli government, and the IDF".""

I stand by this comment, because your attitude to the IDF piracy is well documented in this thread. It is there in black and white for all to see.

Your assertion, however, that we do not care about other atrocities, is not provable from anything which we have said here. The fact that we stick to the topic of this thread says nothing about our concern, or lack of concern, for other topics.

That assertion only has meaning if you could show evidence that we have stated that other atrocities are not important. You cannot do so because we have made no such statements. In fact, I have already stated that these matters are important, but should not be discussed on this thread, because they are off the topic of this thread, which is the Israeli attack on the Gaza aid flotilla.

There is already a distraction thread, started by Bobad, where you can discuss any atrocities you choose, other than this one.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 09:55 PM

Lox, I haven't been able to verify that any of the differences that I saw on the ship in the video couldn't be accounted for by night vision technology. The biggest one is the absence of the name of the ship where it should have been. But the letters of the name are blue, and it looks to me like some colors are not able to be shown in video that comes from using night vision technology. Same with a yellow stripe down the side of an upright part of the ship (can't remember what it's called) that is also missing. So I'm not going with the sister ship idea that was suggested in the video that I saw.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 09:58 PM

Here's some video that was smuggled from the Rachel Corrie, in which we can see and hear the guy speaking for the ship tell the Israelis that the Rachel Corrie would be willing to be inspected by a neutral party like the UN.

So now we have proof that it's not weapons that the Israelis were concerned about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60HZqlRDNXU

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 02:08 AM

You are all missing the point on the ladder scene.
The camera man is concerned that it might be blood.
He asks if it is.
Then, in a scene edited out of the versions Carol supplied, the camera team investigate, laugh, and say it is paint.
If they had been shocked and said it was blood, Carol and co. would hail that as proof.
Instead she says that they can not tell the difference between paint and blood, because she knows it is blood.

Carol, your murder video shows a weapon that caused NONE of the deaths. You and Lox must accept it is a lie.

Lox, why do you think the boat video is fake?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 03:25 AM

Carol, some peole have questioned the authenticity of the landing video because the ship's painted name does not show up.
It is a thermal imagery video. It appears in black and white only, and the only contrast is between objects at different temperatures.
Any slight temperature difference due to different colour paints would be cancelled out by the heat conducting metal underneath.

The ship is recognisably the M Marmara, and you can match scenes with those captured by activists cameras.

It is genuine, but you and Lox thought the activists behaviour so bad that the Israelis might have staged it!
They did not need to.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 06:33 AM

"Here's some video that was smuggled from the Rachel Corrie, in which we can see and hear the guy speaking for the ship tell the Israelis that the Rachel Corrie would be willing to be inspected by a neutral party like the UN."

So you ignore the FACT it was the M Marmara that had violence- and bring up the ship where none occurred.

Not exactly "proof that it's not weapons that the Israelis were concerned about."

The prohibited items of the embargo are those items that can be used for terrorist activities- such as the manufacture of those homemade rockets YOU say were not supplied by Iran, and explosives ( gelitin, margerine, etc are used as base materials for some explosives)

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 07:07 AM

Lox, you have posted (an unprovoked attack on me) elsewhere.
Are you not going to respond to the points put to you here?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 07:11 AM

"Then, in a scene edited out of the versions Carol supplied, the camera team investigate, laugh, and say it is paint."

WHAT!!?? You mean the peace activists might resort to PROPAGANDA????
(presenting only information that supports their side)



BOTH sides are going to present ONLY what will make them look good, or make the other side look bad. If you don't look at BOTH side's information, you cannot determine what actually happened.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 07:19 AM

Lox,

So you have proof certain it was not hydraulic fluid? Just asking, since CarolC has determined what it is by divination.

I do not know what it is, nor where it is coming from- but to state ( as CarolC has) that since it does not splatter like paint it must be blood seems to be making a large leap.


It MAY be blood- it might be hydraulic fluid- CarolC states it is too large a quantity to be from a paintball. SHE was the one who said it did not splatter like pain- I gave examples of other items that would splatter differntly, and a method to show that.

A circular splatter will only occur if the paintball ( with whatever content) impacts on THAT surface- if it impacted on a person, the excess would spray off in various patterns- dependent on the volume and the viscosity of the fluid.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 07:48 AM

"You and Lox must accept it is a lie."

Where is your proof that it is a lie?

We have consistent, corroborating eyewitness testimony from hundreds of passengers, from all sorts of different backgrounds, be they Impartial News reporters, International parliamentarians, Turkish Aid workers or political protesters.

The question is whether or not the other available evidence damages their testimony that live fire was used before the troopers came aboard.

So far, this testimony remains undamaged.

So we have no evidence of lies other than faked evidence from the IDF.


"Lox, why do you think the boat video is fake?"

I believe I gave a quick rundaown of this in an earlier post.


"A circular splatter will only occur if the paintball ( with whatever content) impacts on THAT surface- if it impacted on a person, the excess would spray off in various patterns- dependent on the volume and the viscosity of the fluid."

There isn't that much paint in a paintball.

To produce that kind of spillage you'd need a big baloon to be thrown.


Why this talk of hydraulic fluid?


But lets get to the point - Keiths observations from the video ...

... one guy says - "is that Blood".

Another guy, about 15 feet away from the ladder, says that he doesn't think it is as he doesn't think they're using live fire, but it just paintballs.

He doesn't analyze it closely, nor comment on the behavuour of the liquid as we have ... largely because there was a helicopter above hs head, a navy surrounding him, and a lot of scared people around him.

A minute later, he sees a lazer sight, and ducks, and then makes a comment in his own language, in which iit discernable that he is reporting that the Israeli's could be using live fire or it could be paintballs.

Within a space of about 30 seconds he sees what could be blood and then a lazer sight, and then starts to keep his body down and covered as the possibility that he could be in the line of live fire dawns on him.

Keith, if this is 'proof' that accusations of use of live fire are a lie, then I am a monkeys uncle.


Keith, to clarify my position visavis your posts here and elsewhere, I think you are dishonest to say present yourself as an imaprtial critic with no allegiance, and to criticize otherrs of being partisan, when it is so clear that you are defending the side of the argument you are obviously loyal to right down to the wire.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 08:00 AM

The missing jigsaw piece from this video which will answer our dilemna is to know whho the reporter with the camera was, and exactly what he said, after he saw the lazer dot, about live fire and paintballs.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 08:50 AM

Lox, you have never said why the boat video could be faked. You only said "It seems that the IDF faked two other videos, one being the video of the boat being sprayed with water, and the other of the man walking through the metal post."
So why do you think the boat video could be faked?

Lox, look at the version of the paint video I provided, not the two from Carol. They check out the liquid, laugh and smile and say it is paint.
They were concerned it was blood. They checked. How could they get it wrong? You and Carol are just closing your minds.

Lox, the murder video claims to show the murder of the 19year Turkish American, but he was killed by 9mm rounds.
The soldier in the video is not using a 9mm weapon, so it must be a lie. Eye witnesses who say otherwise must be lying, just like the eyewitnesses who "saw" wounded being thrown into the sea, and who "saw" helicopters spraying water onto the ship for 3 hours.

Lox, BOTH sides lie.
Open your mind.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 09:14 AM

Sorry Lox.
You did post this about the boat video
"For those navy seals to come in at speed, shoot paintballs at passengers and then to tie their boat alongside and then to just sit and take it while water, plates and stun grenades were lobbed at them is inconsistent with the actions of any boarding party.

The helicopters dropped their troopers quickly and efficiently as you might expect from a special forces team, and that is what I would expect from navy seals too.

The boat video looks like a medieval siege in which the invaders have suddenly realized they forgot their ladder.

It just doesn't add up."

They had a ladder. You can see it in the boat ready to be pulled up.
It has a line connected to the hook thay are trying to get on board but the activists keep pushing away.

Is that it?
What is not to believe?
That the Activists should be so hostile?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 09:17 AM

"So why do you think the boat video could be faked?"

The only video that I have said could be faked is the one of the speedboat tied up next to the ship.

Is that the one you are asking about?

"Lox, look at the version of the paint video I provided,"

I clicked on your link and went to 39:00 as you suggested.

Did you mean another video?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 09:19 AM

"The only video that I have said could be faked is the one of the speedboat tied up next to the ship."


This should read:

"The only video 'of a boat' that I have said could be faked is the one of the speedboat tied up next to the ship."

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 09:44 AM

Lox, look at my video at 35.57.
It shows the boat incident from slightly further along the deck. You see it come alongside, the hook being pushed up, the paintball shots, etc.
It proves if proof were needed that the video was genuine.

After the boat sequences comes the "blood" sequence.
The man says it is paintball, not live ammunition. He is told to speak in Nowegian after that.
Can anyone translate?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 09:47 AM

The man who speaks in English and Nowegian is Norwegian activist Espen Goffen .

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 10:02 AM

Or maybe Espen Goffeng.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 11:39 AM

Then, in a scene edited out of the versions Carol supplied, the camera team investigate, laugh, and say it is paint.
If they had been shocked and said it was blood, Carol and co. would hail that as proof.
Instead she says that they can not tell the difference between paint and blood, because she knows it is blood.

Keith, they pronounce it paint only on the basis of a hasty examination during a lot of turmoil on the ship. They have already seen paint from paint pellets having been fired at the ship. It's an assumption hastily made while someone is apparently deliberately trying to confuse them about what they are seeing. But the fact is that paint from paint pellets would behave differently than the stuff we see in the video, so while it's an honest mistake for them to have made, it's pretty obvious that it is nevertheless a mistake.


Carol, your murder video shows a weapon that caused NONE of the deaths. You and Lox must accept it is a lie.

We won't know that until all of the missing passengers have been found and their bodies examined. If they ever are.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 11:42 AM

Carol, some peole have questioned the authenticity of the landing video because the ship's painted name does not show up.
It is a thermal imagery video. It appears in black and white only, and the only contrast is between objects at different temperatures.
Any slight temperature difference due to different colour paints would be cancelled out by the heat conducting metal underneath.

The ship is recognisably the M Marmara, and you can match scenes with those captured by activists cameras.


It is genuine, but you and Lox thought the activists behaviour so bad that the Israelis might have staged it!

Keith, I believe I have at least twice, and possibly three times, explained that I didn't see any differences between the Israeli video and daytime pictures of the ship that couldn't possibly be accounted for because of the use of night vision technology. Don't you even bother to read the posts?

I'm beginning to think you're just trolling now.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 11:46 AM

Also, I have said that while I can't say that the two ships are different, there still are some problems with the Israel video. The example I gave is the footage that is being described as an Israeli being thrown off the ship, but looks a lot more like an Israeli being gently lowered down into a life boat. I have said that I am not forming an opinion at this time about whether or not the Israeli footage is genuine.

You really should take the trouble to read people's posts if you're going to comment on them, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 11:47 AM

So you ignore the FACT it was the M Marmara that had violence- and bring up the ship where none occurred.

beardedbruce, I am not using the Rachel Corrie as evidence of anything that happened on the Mavi Marmara. You're just blowing smoke now.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 11:53 AM

Then please explain what you mean:

"Here's some video that was smuggled from the Rachel Corrie, in which we can see and hear the guy speaking for the ship tell the Israelis that the Rachel Corrie would be willing to be inspected by a neutral party like the UN.

So now we have proof that it's not weapons that the Israelis were concerned about."




The RC was AFTER the violence on the MM. HOW can anything they said say anything about whether the Israelis were concerned about weapons on the MM?????????

You are not making any sense- I expect better from you.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 11:56 AM

Sorry Carol, just trying to be helpful about thermal imaging.
You sounded a bit uncertain about "night vision technology" being used.

Carol, why do you say the inspection was hasty? There is a cut in filming.
What would they do?
They have seen no injuries yet. They think this might be blood from what could only be a very serious injury. They are very concerned that a brother has been injured by the Israelis.
They just smilingly shrug it off as paintball without making sure?!
Open your mind Carol.

Carol, if you are still claiming that passengers are missing you should name them or provide some corroboration.
You need them to be still missing or you will have to admit they lie.
Open your mind Carol.
They are all accounted for. We know the causes of all the deaths. The Norwegian would have told us about blood spilled at that early stage. There was none.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 02:15 PM

BOTH sides are going to present ONLY what will make them look good, or make the other side look bad. If you don't look at BOTH side's information, you cannot determine what actually happened.

Exactly why the proposed Israeli "internal investigation" is a piece of shit.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 02:28 PM

"Exactly why the proposed Israeli "internal investigation" is a piece of shit."

Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 02:29 PM

Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 02:32 PM

Israel appoints flotilla inquiry commission


Published: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 12:13 PM EDT


JERUSALEM - Retired Israeli Supreme Court Justice Yaakov Turkel will head an independent commission of inquiry into the Gaza flotilla incident in which nine people were killed, the Israeli government announced this week.

The other members of the commission include international law professor Shabtai Rosen, who is the recipient of the Israel Prize for jurisprudence and the Hague Prize for International Law, and retired Major-General Amos Horev, former president of Technion. The commission will also include two international observers: Nobel Peace Prize laureate Lord William David Trimble of Northern Ireland and Ken Watkin, former judge advocate general of the Canadian Armed Forces. Both men have extensive experience in the fields of military law and human rights.

"I am convinced that the commission's uncovering of the facts will prove that the goals and actions of the state of Israel and the IDF were appropriate defensive actions in accordance with the highest international standards," said Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

In a statement released by the White House, the Obama administration noted that Israel's military justice system "meets international standards and is capable of conducting a serious and credible investigation." But it withheld its full support, noting that the administration would "await the conduct and findings of the investigation before drawing further conclusions."

Likewise, the White House called for the investigation to "be carried out promptly" and for findings to be presented publicly and to the international community.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 02:45 PM

"Published: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 12:13 PM EDT"

Bobad, you post when the article was published but not who wrote it. I'm trying (not always succeeding!) to follow up posts made on here elsewhere on the net - Cheers!

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 02:51 PM

http://www.jewishledger.com/articles/2010/06/16/news/news05.txt

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 02:52 PM

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 02:56 PM

You're welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 03:38 PM

"They are very concerned that a brother has been injured by the Israelis.
They just smilingly shrug it off as paintball without making sure?!"

They are also hiding below deck from a helicopter from which a lazer sight is being emitted.

They don't go up because they are scared.

Not all people would, like you, fearlessly shimmy up the ladder into the line of what might or might not be the line of live fire.

Some would be afraid of getting shot with the gun attached to that lazer sight.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 03:45 PM

"BOTH sides are going to present ONLY what will make them look good, or make the other side look bad. If you don't look at BOTH side's information, you cannot determine what actually happened.

Exactly why the proposed Israeli "internal investigation" is a piece of shit. "


Of course, a fair investigation from the UN, which has already stated it's conclusions prior to ANY evidence is to be preferred.




"JERUSALEM - Retired Israeli Supreme Court Justice Yaakov Turkel will head an independent commission of inquiry into the Gaza flotilla incident in which nine people were killed, the Israeli government announced this week.

The other members of the commission include international law professor Shabtai Rosen, who is the recipient of the Israel Prize for jurisprudence and the Hague Prize for International Law, and retired Major-General Amos Horev, former president of Technion. The commission will also include two international observers: Nobel Peace Prize laureate Lord William David Trimble of Northern Ireland and Ken Watkin, former judge advocate general of the Canadian Armed Forces. Both men have extensive experience in the fields of military law and human rights."


We know that Ireland and Canada are far too biased to allow them to look at the evidence here- lets get some fair-minded people like CarolC and Lox to investigate. After all, they already know what the conclusion is suppposed to be, right?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 03:56 PM

The boats at 35:57

I don't see anyone tying up and sitting there subjecting themselves to humiliation.

I see boats coming close and firing Paintballs to ward passengers off, and then pulling away and keeping their distance.

As for the alleged Laughing Brothers,

Listen to the concersation.

The Norwegian Thinks (not knows) that the IDF are only firing paintballs so it isn't blood.

The big guy says "now its the real one" or something, and laughs, whilst drawing attention to the lazer sight.

This could be a laugh of nervousness or of disbelief, but whatever it is it is in response to the lazer sight, and is suggesting to the norwegian that he should perhaps not be so confident.

Noone scrutinizes the Fluid, and noone is casual or thinks its funny or themselves foolish for making any mistake.

The whole scene is a commentary where a group of men are trying to work out what is going on.

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 04:02 PM

"Of course, a fair investigation from the UN, which has already stated it's conclusions prior to ANY evidence is to be preferred."

This is a sarcastic comment which implies that the United Nations, with the exception of Israel and their unconditional security council ally the USA, is untrustworthy.

What an arrogant self deluding premiss.

Only Israel and those who agree with her can be trusted to be fair.

Are you going to deny that implication Bruce or are you going to justify it?

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 04:11 PM

"It shows the boat incident from slightly further along the deck. You see it come alongside, the hook being pushed up, the paintball shots, etc.
It proves if proof were needed that the video was genuine."

The same incident?

Where was the water cannon?

Where were the dangling weapons?

In the video that 'could' be faked, the soldiers aren't firing paintball guns, something which they do constantly at 35.57 of this video you provided.

But most importantly, proof that it isn't the same incident at all is that its on the wrong side of the ship.

So whether the other was or wasn't faked is neither provable nor disprovable using the video you have provided.

What you can see is something extremely unlikely which is an inconsistent strategy.

On the starboard side, they storm in with paintballs flying, and don't stop firing.

On the possibly faked port side, they aren't firing, they aren't taking evasive action, they are just sitting there.

These are the elite Israeli Navy seals we're talking about here ... do they just do what they like or do they follow a plan?

I suspect they follow a plan!