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BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

Keith A of Hertford 03 Jul 10 - 04:37 AM
Emma B 03 Jul 10 - 07:00 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 10 - 08:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jul 10 - 05:42 AM
bobad 18 Jul 10 - 06:47 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jul 10 - 10:51 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Jul 10 - 01:50 PM
greg stephens 18 Jul 10 - 02:55 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Jul 10 - 03:04 PM
greg stephens 18 Jul 10 - 03:08 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Jul 10 - 04:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jul 10 - 05:07 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 18 Jul 10 - 05:31 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Jul 10 - 06:03 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jul 10 - 01:52 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 10 - 02:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jul 10 - 03:23 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 19 Jul 10 - 06:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jul 10 - 07:23 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 10 - 07:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jul 10 - 07:44 AM
bobad 19 Jul 10 - 07:50 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Jul 10 - 08:03 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 10 - 08:24 AM
beardedbruce 19 Jul 10 - 11:47 AM
greg stephens 19 Jul 10 - 11:54 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 10 - 12:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jul 10 - 01:08 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 10 - 01:17 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 10 - 01:36 PM
beardedbruce 19 Jul 10 - 01:44 PM
bobad 19 Jul 10 - 01:56 PM
beardedbruce 19 Jul 10 - 02:20 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 10 - 02:39 PM
beardedbruce 19 Jul 10 - 03:07 PM
beardedbruce 19 Jul 10 - 05:06 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 10 - 06:14 PM
beardedbruce 19 Jul 10 - 06:31 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 10 - 07:26 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 10 - 07:31 PM
bobad 19 Jul 10 - 07:46 PM
beardedbruce 19 Jul 10 - 08:02 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 10 - 03:58 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 20 Jul 10 - 04:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jul 10 - 05:33 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 10 - 07:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jul 10 - 08:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jul 10 - 09:43 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 10 - 09:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jul 10 - 10:16 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 04:37 AM

I agree with Jim on this.
Emma, this old eejit has learned a lot about the Gazan situation from your informed and well researched posts.
The thread would be poorer without your contribution.
keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 07:00 AM

"Toothless in Gaza?"

Commenting on the setting up of an internal enquiry into the attack on the aid flotilla Paul Wood, the BBC Newscorrespondent in Jerusalem wrote

"An experienced politician like Benjamin Netanyahu knows that getting the outcome you want from a public inquiry is all about the right terms of reference and who you appoint to sit on the inquiry.

So, the commissions' remit does not include looking at the process of government decision making which led to Israeli commando raid. It will instead focus on questions of international law.

And the two foreign observers who have been appointed are seen as friends of Israel.

Turkey - and others critical of Israel - want a fully independent UN commission of inquiry. This demand has now been deflected with the appointment of credible (but not unfriendly) international figures as non-voting observers."

(In fact Mr Trimble is one of the prominent co-founders of the pro-Israel, Paris-based advocacy group "Friends of Israel")

Even the Israeli newspaper Haaretz had reservations about the enquiry

"The government's efforts to avoid a thorough and credible investigation of the flotilla affair seem more and more like a farce.

The conclusions of an ostensible probe are intended to justify retroactively the decision to blockade Gaza, to forcibly stop the Turkish aid flotilla in international waters and to use deadly force on the deck of the Mavi Marmara.

To make the costume seem credible, the Prime Minister's Bureau asked a retired Supreme Court justice, Yaakov Tirkel, to chair the committee. Alongside him will sit foreign observers in order to legitimize the conclusions in international public opinion"


The panel consists of Shabtai Rosen, a 93-year-old British-born professor and former diplomat, and Amos Horev, an 86-year-old retired army major general and a former president of an Israeli university at 75, Yaakov Tirkel is the youngest.

HOWEVER - as Paul Wood again reports on BBC News, Jerusalem 30 June

"People don't like being made fun of and old people are more sensitive to this than others - so said one Israeli newspaper explaining why, in its view, the Tirkel commission had turned on the Israeli government and demanded new powers.
Certainly there was a lot of criticism in the Israeli press at the commission:
It was too old. The average age was 84.
It was toothless.
It was a mere fig leaf for the Israeli government, a commission intended solely for foreign export."

It is reported by Israeli media that Mr Tirkel has demanded that the panel be recognised as a state commission of inquiry with the power to subpoena witnesses and recommend sanctions and would resign if this was not met

Although 'sources close to the inquiry' have denied the reports, the prime minister issued a statement on Tuesday saying the cabinet was ready to grant the commission's request to allow it to subpoena witnesses and have them testify under oath.

Nevertheless,
it specified that the extended mandate would not allow the panel to question any of the commandos involved in the flotilla raid, citing security considerations and will rely instead on summaries of the army's internal investigation

The scope of the investigation is still limited to examining the conformity of the naval blockade with the rules of international law; the conformity of the actions during the raid to principles of international law; and the actions taken by those who organized and participated in the flotilla, and their identities

It does as Haaretz criticizes (13.06.10)

'not intend to probe the decision-making process that preceded the takeover of the ship and the shortcomings that were uncovered.

Netanyahu's panel will have no powers, not even those of a government probe, and its proposed chairman does not believe in such a panel. In an interview to Army Radio, Tirkel said there is no choice but to establish a state committee of inquiry. He opposed bringing in foreign observers and made clear that he is not a devotee of drawing conclusions about individuals and dismissing those responsible for failures.
When a Haaretz reporter confronted Tirkel about these remarks, the former justice evaded the question saying, "I don't remember what I said." '


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 10 - 08:53 AM

Examples of the two faces of Israel are reported in this morning's press.
Israeli officials appear to have conceded that the blockade MIGHT be lifted - amazing what an 'own goal' can achieve!!!
On the other hand - a Palastinian family having a meal outside their home were struck by Israeli shells, seriously injuring the mother.
Israeli troops refused to allow medical assistance through to her and she died.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 05:42 AM

What is the Israeli side of this tragic story Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 06:47 AM

'Israel's answer to flotillas - helping Gaza's children'

Regional Cooperation Ministry, EU to allocate about $750,000 towards 'Save a Child's Heart' project, which helps fund surgery for Palestinian children, as well as kids from developing nations. Mother of Kurdish child: We didn't keep our trip to Israel a secret

Some 250 children suffering from severe and life-threatening heart defects will be given the opportunity to undergo surgery thanks to the "Save a Child's Heart" project at the Edith Wolfson Medical Center in Holon.

The association, which was founded 15 years ago, has helped fund surgeries for more than 2,400 children - about half of them from the Palestinian Authority and Gaza and the rest from some 40 developing nations, including Iraq, Morocco, Angola and Romania.

The EU is expected to issue a 400,000 euro ($496,000) grant towards the project, while Minister for Regional Cooperation Silvan Shalom announced his office would allocate NIS 1 million (about $260,000) to the program, enough to perform an additional 250 surgeries a year.

"At a time when the world is debating Israel's actions in Gaza, our answer to the next flotilla is this project and saving children from Gaza," Minister Shalom said during a ceremony held at the hospital Sunday. "We are not engaged in a conflict with the Palestinian people, but with the Palestinian Authority and Hamas."

Funds transferred by the EU will be used to train Palestinian physicians, to operate on Palestinian children with heart problems and to support joint Israeli-Palestinian community activity.

European Union Ambassador to Israel Andrew Standley said during the ceremony at Wolfson that the project proves that Israel and the Palestinians can cooperate.

One of those who underwent surgery at the hospital is nine-year-old Kurdish boy Aram, who made his way to Israel along with his mother Shawana from Iraq, via Jordan. "His condition has improved. Before the operation he had trouble breathing. Now he is breathing better," said the mother.

"I am glad he had the operation and I was not afraid to come to Israel. Everyone knew that we were travelling to Israel. We did not keep it a secret," she added.

According to a price list published by the Health Ministry, open heart surgery costs NIS 67,000 ($18,000), but the cost of an operation for children who are part of the project is only NIS 27,000 ($7,000).

Wolfson Medical Center Director Dr. Yitzhak Berlovitz said, "We are proud of this project, and hope other hospitals will take an active role in it."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3908597,00.html


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 10:51 AM

No doubt Israel will put itself on trial (if forced to do so by outside pressure or bad publicity) and find itself 'not guilty' - as it always has.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 01:50 PM

""One of those who underwent surgery at the hospital is nine-year-old Kurdish boy Aram, who made his way to Israel along with his mother Shawana from Iraq, via Jordan. "His condition has improved. Before the operation he had trouble breathing. Now he is breathing better," said the mother.

"I am glad he had the operation and I was not afraid to come to Israel. Everyone knew that we were travelling to Israel. We did not keep it a secret," she added.

According to a price list published by the Health Ministry, open heart surgery costs NIS 67,000 ($18,000), but the cost of an operation for children who are part of the project is only NIS 27,000 ($7,000).

Wolfson Medical Center Director Dr. Yitzhak Berlovitz said, "We are proud of this project, and hope other hospitals will take an active role in it."


Seems he had to take the pretty way to Israel, rather than risk being taken for a rather small terrorist and being shot on the Gaza/Israel border. And of course he can now go back and suffer slow starvation at the hands of the same nation which provided the medical help.

And one is supposed to cancel out the other?......I don't think so!

Maybe if Israel had not destroyed the Gaza infrastructure, he could have had treatment at home.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 02:55 PM

"And of course he can now go back and suffer slow starvation at the hands of the same nation which provided the medical help."
Don: what on earth are you talking about? In what way is Israel starving the Kurds? I have just dipped in to this thread after missing a thousand or so posts, and find as usual people are hammering Israel. But this is the first time I've heard them accused of starving Iraqi Kurdistan. In fact, I should have thought it was quite well known that Kurdistan has had a lot of help from Israel against the Arabs in Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 03:04 PM

"....usual people are hammering Israel."
Not another "Let's hide behind the Holocaust to excuse the behaviour of Israel" - surely!
Israel has done a good enough job in disgracing the Jewish people without anybody having to "hammer Israel".
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 03:08 PM

Yes, things pretty much as usual I see. But I asked what Israel have been doing in the way of starving Kurds recently. Simple question, a simple answer required.Not a load of stuff about the Holocaust.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 04:40 PM

"But I asked what Israel have been doing in the way of starving Kurds recently."
No idea - I just know what they are doing by way of murdering civilians
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 05:07 PM

Jim, if you only tell one side of the story, you are just another propagandist.
Not worth reading.
Your Irish Times did give the Israeli version, albeit very briefly and curtly, but you chose not to include any of it in your post.
Dishonest really.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 05:31 PM

"Your Irish Times did give the Israeli version, albeit very briefly and curtly, but you chose not to include any of it in your post.
Dishonest really."

Failure to respond to your post doesn't equate to "dishonesty", it means (from what I gathered on another thread) that Jim has for his own reasons, decided not to engage with further debate with YOU. Jim briefly mentioned a piece of current news. That's all. Nothing dishonest in doing that.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 06:03 PM

Thank you C.S. - decided to stop talking to eejits and nausing up threads by monopolising them - would that......!
For the record; I didn't mention The Irish Times, nor did I read it there.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 01:52 AM

Crow Sister,
Jims reopened the thread with this and one other story.
This story is not relevant to the subject of the thread and is a one sided post on a highly contentious issue.
What we usually call trolling.

If you want to be more than just a propagandist, I think you should aim for some balance.
Jim says he got the story from the morning press. All the papers I saw gave both sides.
Jim often quotes from "his" Irish Times and that paper did.

If he is being honest about the paper he read, he might still have guessed that there was more to it.
If the Israelis planned to murder this poor woman, they could have used a more discreet method than an artillery barrage.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 02:14 AM

"trolling -"
I suppose that passing on information that the the same people who murdered aid-suppliers have recently shelled a Palestinian family eating a meal outside their home, then prevented medical assistance from getting through and instead, stood and watched while a member of that family died because of their "let's go and slaughter some civilians today" policy, - might be considered trolling if you are in favour of that sort of thing.
I hadn't realised that quoting news sources had now become mandatory - surely, if Keith can look it up for himself, anyone can (unlike him, most people can stretch to more a couple of paragraphs at a time). Maybe I should just cut-n-paste in future - seems to be the going thing nowadays.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 03:23 AM

"Maybe I should just cut-n-paste in future - seems to be the going thing nowadays."

What do you suppose he meant?
Let me tell you.
A few days ago I posted my thoughts on what led to Bloody Sunday.
Jim replied that he easily found a web piece that I had cut and pasted almost verbatim from.
This was a lie.
They were my own thoughts.
A blatant and flagrant lie told for the basest of reasons; to undermine and discredit the opinion of someone whe dared to disagree with Jim.
He refused to withdraw or even acknowledge the lie, and now he compounds the crime by taunting me with it.
Beneath contempt.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 06:46 AM

Keith A, as someone who follows this thread, I understand Jims decision to try to avoid engaging in disagreement with you. It's getting too personal.

If you're genuinely concerned about people hearing the "Israeli side" rather than wasting time with personal squabbling, why don't you simply post the "Israeli side" in response to Jim's post? I'm sure I'd rather read that!


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 07:23 AM

For the same reason Crow Sister.
He posts one side, I post the other, and off we'd go again.
Instead I made a respectful plea for balance in our posting on this and other divisive issues.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 07:35 AM

Let's do it for Keith shall we?
I could have posted as a follow-up to the reports about the sadistic act of allowing a wounded woman to die for want of medical attention, the claim by the Israelis that they were engaged in exchange fire with Palasinian militants.
I then would have had to add that the family concerned denied that there had been any such exchange other than that of the Israelis which had hit their home and killed their mother. They also pointed out that it would have been insanity on their part to be dining al-fresco in the middle of a battle.
There - is that your argument Keith, or is there more?
As far as I am concerned, the point of all this is the inhuman behaviour by the Israelis in allowing a woman to die by actively preventing a medical team, from reaching her - behaviour that we have come to expect from Israel.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 07:44 AM

Thanks Jim.
The Israeli's have yet to comment on delaying the Red Crescent.
I always remind myself that both sides lie, but I doubt the artillery opened up on a whim.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 07:50 AM

GAZA CITY (AFP) – The Israeli army fired at least one shell into the Al-Bureij neighbourhood in the Hamas-run Gaza Strip on Tuesday, killing a woman and wounding five people, Palestinian medics said.

Medics said the woman was killed when the shell hit her house. Five others were wounded were taken to a nearby hospital.

An Israeli military spokeswoman confirmed the incident, saying that "suspects were identified coming close to the (border) fence and a force nearby opened fire."

She had no further details, but the Ynet website reported that Israeli forces had targeted a group of militants trying to fire mortars into Israel.

Israel launched a devastating assault on the Palestinian enclave in December 2008 aimed at halting rocket fire from the besieged coastal Strip.

Some 1,400 Palestinians and 13 Israelis were killed in the 22-day war.

After a year of quiet following the assault, Gaza militants have stepped up the cross-border rocket fire, with more than 60 rockets and mortar rounds striking Israel since January, the military says.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100713/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictgazashell


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 08:03 AM

""Don: what on earth are you talking about? In what way is Israel starving the Kurds?""

If you take the trouble to read the post I referred to, you will become dimly aware that ia refers specifically to Palestinian children, so the inference drawn, that a trip round via Jordan and Iraq from Gaza, seems reasonable from the facts presented.

I stand subject to correction if this is not so, always provided you have evidence in support.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 08:24 AM

The original news report said that the medical authorities have demanded to know why they were not allowed in to assist.
"I doubt the artillery opened up on a whim. "
Why on earth should yo think this? It was a constant tactic in last years incursion into Gaza - accompanied by tanks, and using heavy weapons and backed up with phosphorus bombs.
On that occasion they were filmed doing so - and it was shown on BBC television - doubt not!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 11:47 AM

Amazing how quiet everyone was years back when Hamas used an ambulance to bring a terrorist attack team into a border crossing (killing a number of both Israelis and Palestinian civilians) in Gaza ( since time, Israel does not allow ambulances to cross that border, since Hamas has shown itself in violation to the internatioanal laws of war in regards to using Red Cross/Red Crescent marked vehicles for combat purposes.

But don't take that into account, since it condemns the Palestinians and not the Israelis.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 11:54 AM

Re Don(Wyziwyg)T's post: your cut'n'paste story referred to a Kurdish boy from northern Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 12:47 PM

"Amazing how quiet everyone was years back"
If everyone was so quiet how come we all knew about it and said our piece on it at the time.
There is a 'slight' difference between a tactic (no matter how unsavoury) carried out by guerilla fighters and the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians being carried out by the Israelis, which you appear to be fully in support of.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 01:08 PM

Ethnic cleansing?
I thought the population was rapidly increasing.
Less emotive hyperbole and more balance would lead to more reasoned discussion.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 01:17 PM

The systematic killing of Palestinian civilians is ethnic cleansing in my book - what do you call it?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 01:36 PM

Self-defence - no doubt!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 01:44 PM

Jim,

"which you appear to be fully in support of."

The number of Palestinian civilians being killed ( over the period after Israel left Gaza) is far greater BY Hamas than by the Israeli forces reacting to attacks on Israel. So, please condemn THAT ethnic clensing, or admit you havce no problemn with dead Palestinians, unless they are killed by Israelis.

You seem to think that it is ok to kill Israelis, and that when a goverment ( as you claim Hamas is) attacks another country they should be immune from attacks in return. The Hamas CHARTER declares that Israel does not have the right to exist- Israel has declared that the Palestinians can exist in peace as long as they do not attack Israel.

UNTIL there is a peace treaty, there exists a state of war between Israel and those parties that attacked in 1948. Since Egypt ( which controls the other borders to Gaza, and you seem to ignore) and Jordan have signed such a peace treaty, they are at peace. Whe the Palestinians love their children more than they hate Jews, there might be peace in the region- Until then, Israel will continue to defend itself and try to prevent larger conflict by reducing the weapons available to thier enemies.

I see that Hamas has no problem smuggling in rockets: One might think they could bring that volume of food or medicine in, but they choose rockets instead- Ever ask them WHY???


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 01:56 PM

Reason is incompatible with bigotry.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 02:20 PM

"After a year of quiet following the assault, Gaza militants have stepped up the cross-border rocket fire, with more than 60 rockets and mortar rounds striking Israel since January, the military says."


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 02:39 PM

Israel is a nuclear power.
Whatever the Palestinians can do against is in retaliation to the annexing of their land, the ghettoisation of their people, the control of essential goods, the regular military incursions into their territory, the destruction of their houses, the systematic killing of their people - including the use of chemical weapons on built-up areas, hospitals, schools, nurserys..... and all the other atrocities committed in the name of 'The Promised Land' ranks a little insignificant against wishing that 'Israel has no right to exist'.
In those circumstances, I'm afraid I might wish for the same thing.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 03:07 PM

Jim,

The Hamas declaration predates the Israeli posseion of nuclear power- you are again wrong.

Israel HAD nuclear weapons in it's last several wars- and did not use them. Thus, your comments about systematic killing should be reserved to the Palestians who did so to those Jews in the West Bank, and other Arab nations after 1948- killed or drove them out- THAT was ethnic clensing- there were far more Arab Israelis LEFT in Israel that all the Jews in all the Arab nations. The refugees from 1948 were approx 640,000 Arabs who fled Israel ( a minority of the Arab population, and 820,000 Jews who were driven from Arab nations- the vast majority of the Jewish population. Israel settledm0ost ( over 500,000) of hose Jews- HOW MANY ARAB NATIONS SETTLED ANY PALESTINANS???

I grew up ( pre 1967) across the street from a Palestinian family from the CHRISTIAN town of Ramallah- tell me baout how THEY were allowed back between 1948 and 1967, when it was under Arab control- and the Jewish population was ethnically cleansed ( OK when you conquer Jews, I guess you would say)

Going back to 1923, the British split off 77% of the Mandate Palestine for an Arab Homeland- and did not allow any Jews to settle there- So the remaining 23% of the Jewish homeland is NOT allowed to remain a Jewish (majority ) state??? You want to give back the Jewish homeland as created by the treaty that ended WW I, and established Lebenon, Iraq, Turkey et al???


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 05:06 PM

Jim,

""let's go and slaughter some civilians today""

THAT is a description of the tactics "carried out by guerilla fighters " all the time, over the last 62 years, against the civilian population of Israel- and it was ok when it was Jews being killed.


So you have no room to talk.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 06:14 PM

"The Hamas declaration predates the Israeli posseion of nuclear power- you are again wrong."
So what - the political problems raised by the setting up of the State of Israel were built in by politicians over half a century ago; they were never solved then when they should have been and they have left behind todays conflicts.
What we are discussing here is the fact that since the Six Day War the Israelis have adopted an aggressive expansionist policy backed up by military might. They have continued to annex Palestinian land and have used thuggish military tactics against a Third World people, an impoverished people poorly armed and incapable of effective resistance - making your suggestion of "ethnic cleansing" against the Palastinians utterly ludicrous - insulting even.
I notice that you did not deny my list of war crimes carried out by the Israelis, so you agree that they were carried out and you support them - tell me that is not so or tell me they never happened and what I witnessed earlier this year on a television documentary on the last incursion into Gaza was the figment of somebody's imagination.
Whenever opposition to Israeli behavior is brought up the inevitable squeal of 'anti-Semitism' goes up. Some of the fiercest opponents of present-day Israeli policy I have heard has come from Jews - friends I knew who were the children of holocaust survivers and who introduced me to the history of the Jewish people in the twentieth century - they are now ashamed to call themselves Jewish.
Justify Israeli thuggishness if you can, but don't claim them as victims - they are not; they are very much the perpetrators of horrendous crimes.
When I look at today's Gaza, I can see little difference in what is happening there than what happened in Warsaw and Wilno; when I remeber the Shatila and Sabra refugee camp massacres it remind me what happened at Lidice or a thousand other atrocities carried out by the Nazis.
I never believed I would see a nation of Jewish fascists, but that's what we have in the world today, and they have nuclear capability.
Incidentally - the tactics used by the Palestinians against the Israelis in order to get their homes back are no worse, and in some cases not as extreme as those used by the Jewish resistance in order to set up the State of Israel in the first place. Isn't it funny how terrorism becomes a valid form of self-determination depending on which side you support?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 06:31 PM

"They have continued to annex Palestinian land "

False statement.

"so you agree that they were carried out and you support them "

No. I do not agree that attacks on missle launchers and morters illeagally put into schools and such are war crimes- the placemnent by the Palestinians was A WAR CRIME ( BY UN determination.)

You do not reply to MY questions:



I see that Hamas has no problem smuggling in rockets: One might think they could bring that volume of food or medicine in, but they choose rockets instead- Ever ask them WHY???

HOW MANY ARAB NATIONS SETTLED ANY PALESTINANS???



The refugees from 1948 were approx 640,000 Arabs who fled Israel ( a minority of the Arab population, and 820,000 Jews who were driven from Arab nations- the vast majority of the Jewish population.

Are you disagreeing with this statement????????

So your statement "the tactics used by the Palestinians against the Israelis in order to get their homes back are no worse, and in some cases not as extreme as those used by the Jewish resistance in order to set up the State of Israel in the first place." means that the displaced Jews have the right to treat the Palestinians as the Palestinians are treating Israelis. OR DO YOU DENY THAT ARAB JEWS HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS ARS YOU GIVE MOOSLIM PALESTINIANS ( and deny to Christian ones)?



there were far more Arab Israelis LEFT in Israel that all the Jews in all the Arab nations.

But you seem to think ity ok to kill or drive off Jews. WHY is it that when the Plaestinians kill each other you were so silent? And don't lie and say you protested- I saw nothing here that indicates you care about those lives, since you cannot blame them on Israeli action.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 07:26 PM

There is very little 'driving off of the Jews' with the primative weapons posessed by the Palestinians, and we can argue the rights and wrongs of the political set-up of Israel from here to kingdom come - I am talking about the behaviour of the Israelis towards non-combatants - utterly inhuman.
Even if it was the case that the Palestinians hid mortars (primative sort of opposition to the weaponry of the Israeli army - tanks, planes, sophisticated rocket launchers), how can ytou possibly justify the destruction of those schools and hospitals? the hopitals that were put under fire by the Israelis still had the patents and staff in them - HOW CAN YOU JUSTIFY THAT? AND HOW DO YOU JUSTIFY THE USE OF CHEMICAL WEAPONS SUCH AS PHOSPORUS BOMBS ON A CIVILIAN POPULATION - WHAT KIND OF PEOPLE ARE YOU - YOU DISGRACE THE MEMORY OGF THE HOLCAUST DEAD.
You have chosen to defend one aspect of the Israeli atrocdities, defending it on the word of a government that has jackbooted its way across the Middle East and ignoring all the rest.
I deny the right to a homeland to no-one as long as it is their home and not one promised by a 2,000 old myth.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 07:31 PM

Sorry - forgot to sign that inmy anger for the support fr Israeli fascism.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 07:46 PM

I can't help noting that it is the type of attitude and language on display in many of the posts in this thread that explains the actions that Israel is forced to take in order to ensure it's survival. I am heartened that this thread will live on in perpetuity as testament to this calumny.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 08:02 PM

How can YOU justify the placement of morters and rockets in schools and hospitals, a violation of the Geneva Conventions?

How can YOU justfy placing tires filled with gasoline around political opponamnts, and lighting them on fire?

How can YOU justify the smuggling in of rockets and morters, while complaining that the people are starving and need medicine? You seem to agree that killing Jews is more important than the care of Palestinian children

How can YOU justify the killing of Israeli civilians by random rocket bombardment of civilian areas- a violation of the Geneva Coonvention?

Yet YOU have claimed that the Palestinians are justified in all that because they fled their homes in 1948 instead of living in peace, as MORE Arabs did- and you deny the greater number of Jews driven from their homes the rights you give to the terrorist Palestinans.

Shame on you. Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 03:58 AM

I justify none of this - they are all acts of war which, as a paciifist, I find inhuman and abhorrent. To me, none of them are any 'better' or 'worse' than acts carried out by the 'freedom fighters' in their struggle for the establishment of the State of Israel.
But none of these exeed the continuing WAR CRIMES committed against the civilian population of Gaza, the destruction of their homes, hospitals, schools, the ghettoisation, the use of tanks and heavy weaponry in built-up areas, the blockade..... Nor do they come anywhere near the the arial bombing and use of chemical weapons on a civilian population, which none of you have referred to. NOTHING JUSTIFIES THAT - YOU DON'T EVEN ATTEMPT TO - which tells me the type of people you are.
I raised the question of the bombardment of a Palestinian home and the refusal to allow medical assistance to a mortally-wounded woman - WHERE IS THE JUSTIFICATION OF THAT?
The shame lies with the Israeli Fascists and with you for supporting them with your political bullshitting doubletalk.
Even the Israelis have realised they have over-stepped the mark and are negotiationg to remove the blockade, having scored a spectacular 'own-goal' with their piratical behaviour towards the aid ships - it is their 'supporters from afar' who, from the safety of great distance, encourage them in their atrocities - BRAVE BOYS YOU ARE!!!
If threads like this stand as monuments for anything it will be as a record of a persecuted people turned persecutor - that is the legacy that Israel has handed to the Jewish People.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 04:14 AM

"that is the legacy that Israel has handed to the Jewish People."

And of course the *real* threat of the rise of anti-Semitism. Indeed, this is one of the things that Jews who oppose Irael's actions, are anxious about: being tarred with the same brush, and inheriting the consequences of the actions of others.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 05:33 AM

"I raised the question of the bombardment of a Palestinian home.."

This could not be justified if true.
Both sides tell different stories, and both sides lie.

It is easy to say you are a pacifist and against it all.
In the real world, Israel has to act against the rocket attacks, and that means military action in a densely populated place.
Many French civillians were killed by the allies in the invasion of France.

How about you saying the rocket attacks are wrong and should stop Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 07:45 AM

True enough and more than likely to happen as often as the Israelis feel the urge.
Whatever Israel has to contend with in the shape of (exremely primative) rocket attacks or whatever; the Palestinians have to contend with 100 times worse - if you think I am making it up compare the casualty figures (and the Israeis don't have to rebuild their homes, schools and hospitals after every 'neighbourly' visit or cope with seige conditions thanks to the blockade, checkpoints and Berlin-type wall).
I am tempted to take up your own technique ofr denbate and ask what France has to do with this debate, but let that pass.
Do I take sides - yes I do, but that has nothing to do with my criticism of Israel's genocidal behaviour.
Do I say the rocket attacks are wrong -I have said what I believe in terms of killing people - do I believe they are any more wrong than what the Israeli's do to the Palestinian population; men, women, children, young, old - they don't discriminate - certainly not - pinpricks compared to chemical weapon attacks, et al.
I'll do a deal with you; I'll say they are wrong if you withdraw your supporyt for Israeli fascism, British massacres in Derry and violence-provoking marchers throughout the six counties - or anywhere else.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 08:05 AM

Emotive hyperbole again.
Nothing in recent decades, if ever, can justify the expression, "Israel's genocidal behaviour."

If the rockets are so ineffective, why not stop firing them so Israel will have no pretext for its attacks.
It claims, with justification, that it acts in response to the rockets and mortars.

You say, "I'll do a deal with you; I'll say they are wrong if you withdraw your supporyt for Israeli fascism, British massacres in Derry and violence-provoking marchers throughout the six counties - or anywhere else."

If I have EVER supported Israeli fascism, produce it and I will withdraw it.
I only know of one massacre in whole of NI, and I did denounce the 4 soldiers responsible.
I can not help you with the other thing. If the march is harmless decent people would not be "provoked" to attempt murder of policewomen etc.
But if the march is not harmless, I am with you.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 09:43 AM

If you think the rocket attacks are wrong and should stop, why can't you say it?
If you do not think they are wrong and should stop, why can't you say that?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 09:59 AM

"Emotive hyperbole again."
Explain the part played by Israel in the Shatila and Sabra Refugee Camp massacres, the military incursions into Gaza, including chemical weapon attacks, the forcible seziure and occupation of Palastinian land, including the plan to demolish 14 Palastinian homes to make way for a tourist centre, and today's announcement that it is considering changing the law to allow the seizure of property vacated by Palestinians they have driven out.
All as near as it gets to genocide for me, but will be glad to replace the term with ethnic cleansing if it helps.
"If the rockets are so ineffective..."
"Every little helps" - as the man from Tesco tells us.
"If I have EVER supported Israeli fascism..."
When haven't you supported Israeli Fascism - a quick perusal of this thread will help refresh your memory.
"and I did denounce the 4 soldiers responsible."
Whatever happened to "The buck stops here" or are you happy to absolve the army and the Government of all blame. If so, why haven't the four rogue soldiers been imprisoned for their crimes against humanity?
"I can not help you with the other thing. "
Still with the Billy/Bully-boys then
I take that a refusal of my invitation - sorry, no deal in that case.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 10:16 AM

It is easy to say, "When haven't you supported Israeli Fascism "
Give a single example from this or any thread and I promise to withdraw.

White phosphorous is nasty stuff, and is used to make smoke, but not really a chemical weapon.
Not a genocidal weapon like poison gas.
If Israelis are guilty of genocide in Gaza, what about Hamas who have killed more Gazans?

We really can not discuss NI here, but briefly, they acted without orders and Saville DID absolve army and government.

Now, are the rocket attacks wrong?
Should they stop?


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