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BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid

michaelr 31 May 10 - 01:12 AM
DougR 31 May 10 - 01:38 AM
Little Hawk 31 May 10 - 02:08 AM
polaitaly 31 May 10 - 02:27 AM
mousethief 31 May 10 - 03:58 AM
Lox 31 May 10 - 05:33 AM
Lox 31 May 10 - 05:37 AM
McGrath of Harlow 31 May 10 - 05:40 AM
Lox 31 May 10 - 06:58 AM
Jim McLean 31 May 10 - 07:39 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 31 May 10 - 07:43 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 31 May 10 - 07:50 AM
Riginslinger 31 May 10 - 08:00 AM
artbrooks 31 May 10 - 08:45 AM
greg stephens 31 May 10 - 09:27 AM
Arnie 31 May 10 - 09:46 AM
bankley 31 May 10 - 10:03 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 31 May 10 - 10:09 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 31 May 10 - 10:11 AM
Lox 31 May 10 - 10:46 AM
Lox 31 May 10 - 10:55 AM
Stilly River Sage 31 May 10 - 11:14 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 31 May 10 - 11:16 AM
Lox 31 May 10 - 11:18 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 31 May 10 - 11:22 AM
Stu 31 May 10 - 01:15 PM
Joe Offer 31 May 10 - 01:27 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 31 May 10 - 01:29 PM
Bill D 31 May 10 - 01:32 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 31 May 10 - 01:38 PM
Paul Burke 31 May 10 - 02:03 PM
The Barden of England 31 May 10 - 02:12 PM
McGrath of Harlow 31 May 10 - 02:16 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 31 May 10 - 02:21 PM
Paul Burke 31 May 10 - 03:11 PM
Paul Burke 31 May 10 - 04:11 PM
Stilly River Sage 31 May 10 - 04:18 PM
robomatic 31 May 10 - 04:22 PM
Lox 31 May 10 - 04:49 PM
bobad 31 May 10 - 04:50 PM
bobad 31 May 10 - 05:00 PM
Lox 31 May 10 - 05:01 PM
Lox 31 May 10 - 05:06 PM
Royston 31 May 10 - 05:25 PM
The Fooles Troupe 31 May 10 - 05:27 PM
Jim Carroll 31 May 10 - 05:34 PM
Paul Burke 31 May 10 - 05:51 PM
Jim McLean 31 May 10 - 06:52 PM
Riginslinger 31 May 10 - 07:15 PM
Bill D 31 May 10 - 09:12 PM
artbrooks 31 May 10 - 09:16 PM
mousethief 01 Jun 10 - 12:07 AM
Charley Noble 01 Jun 10 - 08:38 AM
Richard Bridge 01 Jun 10 - 10:09 AM
catspaw49 01 Jun 10 - 10:37 AM
greg stephens 01 Jun 10 - 10:50 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 01 Jun 10 - 10:51 AM
Stu 01 Jun 10 - 11:02 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 01 Jun 10 - 12:54 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Jun 10 - 01:20 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Jun 10 - 01:21 PM
beardedbruce 01 Jun 10 - 01:21 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 01 Jun 10 - 01:34 PM
Richard Bridge 01 Jun 10 - 01:37 PM
beardedbruce 01 Jun 10 - 01:45 PM
Richard Bridge 01 Jun 10 - 01:45 PM
Roberto 01 Jun 10 - 01:46 PM
Stringsinger 01 Jun 10 - 01:47 PM
Richard Bridge 01 Jun 10 - 01:57 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 01 Jun 10 - 02:06 PM
beardedbruce 01 Jun 10 - 02:19 PM
beardedbruce 01 Jun 10 - 02:22 PM
beardedbruce 01 Jun 10 - 02:24 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 01 Jun 10 - 02:40 PM
Bill D 01 Jun 10 - 02:49 PM
beardedbruce 01 Jun 10 - 02:55 PM
beardedbruce 01 Jun 10 - 02:56 PM
beardedbruce 01 Jun 10 - 03:02 PM
Emma B 01 Jun 10 - 03:07 PM
Royston 01 Jun 10 - 03:11 PM
Paul Burke 01 Jun 10 - 03:39 PM
Paul Burke 01 Jun 10 - 03:42 PM
Richard Bridge 01 Jun 10 - 03:50 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 04:27 PM
beardedbruce 01 Jun 10 - 04:34 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 04:36 PM
Emma B 01 Jun 10 - 04:43 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 04:57 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 10 - 05:11 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 05:22 PM
Lox 01 Jun 10 - 05:24 PM
Lox 01 Jun 10 - 05:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM
beardedbruce 01 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 05:35 PM
Lox 01 Jun 10 - 05:37 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 05:39 PM
Ed T 01 Jun 10 - 05:42 PM
mousethief 01 Jun 10 - 05:49 PM
mousethief 01 Jun 10 - 05:50 PM
Ed T 01 Jun 10 - 05:52 PM
mousethief 01 Jun 10 - 06:00 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 06:05 PM
mousethief 01 Jun 10 - 06:08 PM
Ed T 01 Jun 10 - 06:09 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 06:09 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 06:12 PM
mousethief 01 Jun 10 - 06:14 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 06:18 PM
Ed T 01 Jun 10 - 06:30 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 06:34 PM
Ed T 01 Jun 10 - 06:34 PM
mousethief 01 Jun 10 - 06:38 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 06:39 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 06:41 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 06:42 PM
Ed T 01 Jun 10 - 06:42 PM
Ed T 01 Jun 10 - 06:44 PM
Emma B 01 Jun 10 - 06:44 PM
mousethief 01 Jun 10 - 06:44 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 06:48 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 06:49 PM
Ed T 01 Jun 10 - 06:51 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 06:52 PM
Ed T 01 Jun 10 - 06:54 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 06:56 PM
Ed T 01 Jun 10 - 07:00 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 07:04 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 07:05 PM
Emma B 01 Jun 10 - 07:08 PM
Joe Offer 01 Jun 10 - 07:08 PM
Ed T 01 Jun 10 - 07:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Jun 10 - 07:16 PM
Emma B 01 Jun 10 - 07:17 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Jun 10 - 07:24 PM
Lox 01 Jun 10 - 07:25 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 07:25 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 07:28 PM
Ed T 01 Jun 10 - 07:30 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 01 Jun 10 - 07:38 PM
Emma B 01 Jun 10 - 07:38 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Jun 10 - 07:39 PM
michaelr 01 Jun 10 - 07:41 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 07:41 PM
Ed T 01 Jun 10 - 07:48 PM
Ed T 01 Jun 10 - 07:54 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 07:56 PM
Joe Offer 01 Jun 10 - 08:01 PM
Ed T 01 Jun 10 - 08:02 PM
Lox 01 Jun 10 - 08:03 PM
michaelr 01 Jun 10 - 08:09 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 08:10 PM
Charley Noble 01 Jun 10 - 08:11 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 08:12 PM
michaelr 01 Jun 10 - 08:14 PM
Ed T 01 Jun 10 - 08:26 PM
Lox 01 Jun 10 - 08:29 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 01 Jun 10 - 08:30 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 08:33 PM
beardedbruce 01 Jun 10 - 08:33 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 08:36 PM
Ed T 01 Jun 10 - 08:38 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 08:40 PM
Ed T 01 Jun 10 - 08:46 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 08:48 PM
Ed T 01 Jun 10 - 08:54 PM
Lox 01 Jun 10 - 08:57 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 09:03 PM
Ed T 01 Jun 10 - 09:08 PM
Ed T 01 Jun 10 - 09:14 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 01 Jun 10 - 09:22 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 09:22 PM
Lox 01 Jun 10 - 09:28 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 01 Jun 10 - 09:32 PM
Ed T 01 Jun 10 - 09:59 PM
mousethief 01 Jun 10 - 10:10 PM
Bill D 01 Jun 10 - 10:23 PM
CarolC 01 Jun 10 - 10:52 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 02 Jun 10 - 03:03 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 02 Jun 10 - 03:06 AM
mousethief 02 Jun 10 - 03:32 AM
CarolC 02 Jun 10 - 04:02 AM
CarolC 02 Jun 10 - 04:27 AM
CarolC 02 Jun 10 - 04:55 AM
Emma B 02 Jun 10 - 05:22 AM
Ed T 02 Jun 10 - 05:53 AM
Ed T 02 Jun 10 - 05:55 AM
theleveller 02 Jun 10 - 05:56 AM
Emma B 02 Jun 10 - 06:41 AM
Bonzo3legs 02 Jun 10 - 06:47 AM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Jun 10 - 08:12 AM
Royston 02 Jun 10 - 08:36 AM
bobad 02 Jun 10 - 08:51 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 02 Jun 10 - 08:58 AM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Jun 10 - 09:29 AM
Stringsinger 02 Jun 10 - 09:35 AM
Ed T 02 Jun 10 - 09:43 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 02 Jun 10 - 10:01 AM
Emma B 02 Jun 10 - 10:08 AM
theleveller 02 Jun 10 - 10:12 AM
Ed T 02 Jun 10 - 10:31 AM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Jun 10 - 10:36 AM
Ed T 02 Jun 10 - 10:39 AM
Ed T 02 Jun 10 - 10:42 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 02 Jun 10 - 10:59 AM
Bonzo3legs 02 Jun 10 - 11:01 AM
CarolC 02 Jun 10 - 11:03 AM
Emma B 02 Jun 10 - 11:19 AM
CarolC 02 Jun 10 - 11:22 AM
Greg F. 02 Jun 10 - 11:44 AM
mousethief 02 Jun 10 - 11:53 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 02 Jun 10 - 11:59 AM
greg stephens 02 Jun 10 - 12:16 PM
CarolC 02 Jun 10 - 12:25 PM
beardedbruce 02 Jun 10 - 12:46 PM
Royston 02 Jun 10 - 12:54 PM
beardedbruce 02 Jun 10 - 01:04 PM
Arthur_itus 02 Jun 10 - 01:04 PM
beardedbruce 02 Jun 10 - 01:04 PM
Lox 02 Jun 10 - 01:09 PM
mousethief 02 Jun 10 - 01:13 PM
CarolC 02 Jun 10 - 01:16 PM
Greg F. 02 Jun 10 - 01:38 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 02 Jun 10 - 02:16 PM
EBarnacle 02 Jun 10 - 03:15 PM
CarolC 02 Jun 10 - 03:19 PM
CarolC 02 Jun 10 - 03:22 PM
CarolC 02 Jun 10 - 03:31 PM
Lox 02 Jun 10 - 03:32 PM
CarolC 02 Jun 10 - 03:35 PM
Penny S. 02 Jun 10 - 04:07 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 02 Jun 10 - 04:36 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 02 Jun 10 - 04:40 PM
CarolC 02 Jun 10 - 05:10 PM
Paul Burke 02 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM
CarolC 02 Jun 10 - 05:36 PM
CarolC 02 Jun 10 - 05:59 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 02 Jun 10 - 06:24 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 02 Jun 10 - 06:31 PM
CarolC 02 Jun 10 - 06:35 PM
CarolC 02 Jun 10 - 10:42 PM
mousethief 02 Jun 10 - 11:34 PM
Bobert 02 Jun 10 - 11:34 PM
CarolC 02 Jun 10 - 11:42 PM
mousethief 03 Jun 10 - 12:08 AM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 12:27 AM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 01:09 AM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 01:17 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jun 10 - 03:29 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Jun 10 - 05:34 AM
Emma B 03 Jun 10 - 05:50 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Jun 10 - 06:00 AM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 06:17 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 03 Jun 10 - 07:26 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 03 Jun 10 - 07:33 AM
Emma B 03 Jun 10 - 09:10 AM
Bobert 03 Jun 10 - 09:15 AM
mousethief 03 Jun 10 - 09:19 AM
Mr Happy 03 Jun 10 - 09:23 AM
Mr Happy 03 Jun 10 - 09:34 AM
Stringsinger 03 Jun 10 - 09:43 AM
Emma B 03 Jun 10 - 10:15 AM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 10:25 AM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 10:47 AM
mousethief 03 Jun 10 - 11:01 AM
Peace 03 Jun 10 - 11:13 AM
mousethief 03 Jun 10 - 11:23 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 03 Jun 10 - 11:30 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 03 Jun 10 - 12:03 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 03 Jun 10 - 12:06 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 03 Jun 10 - 12:11 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 12:18 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 12:24 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 12:31 PM
Roberto 03 Jun 10 - 12:53 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 01:04 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 03 Jun 10 - 01:05 PM
beardedbruce 03 Jun 10 - 01:10 PM
kendall 03 Jun 10 - 01:16 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 01:17 PM
beardedbruce 03 Jun 10 - 01:19 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 01:19 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 01:20 PM
beardedbruce 03 Jun 10 - 01:25 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 01:26 PM
Paul Burke 03 Jun 10 - 01:27 PM
beardedbruce 03 Jun 10 - 01:29 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 01:31 PM
greg stephens 03 Jun 10 - 01:33 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 01:34 PM
pdq 03 Jun 10 - 01:37 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 01:41 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 03 Jun 10 - 01:43 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 01:50 PM
Paul Burke 03 Jun 10 - 01:58 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 02:03 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 02:15 PM
pdq 03 Jun 10 - 02:17 PM
Emma B 03 Jun 10 - 02:25 PM
Paul Burke 03 Jun 10 - 02:25 PM
beardedbruce 03 Jun 10 - 02:33 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 03 Jun 10 - 02:38 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 02:39 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 02:40 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 02:48 PM
number 6 03 Jun 10 - 02:48 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 02:52 PM
pdq 03 Jun 10 - 02:54 PM
number 6 03 Jun 10 - 02:58 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 03 Jun 10 - 02:58 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 02:59 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 03 Jun 10 - 03:00 PM
robomatic 03 Jun 10 - 03:51 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 04:09 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 04:24 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Jun 10 - 05:01 PM
greg stephens 03 Jun 10 - 05:09 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 05:32 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 05:35 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 05:38 PM
pdq 03 Jun 10 - 05:44 PM
Paul Burke 03 Jun 10 - 05:47 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 05:49 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 05:49 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 05:52 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 06:12 PM
pdq 03 Jun 10 - 06:37 PM
Lox 03 Jun 10 - 07:01 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Jun 10 - 07:34 PM
Lox 03 Jun 10 - 07:52 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 09:05 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 09:07 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 09:36 PM
robomatic 03 Jun 10 - 10:25 PM
CarolC 03 Jun 10 - 11:10 PM
mousethief 04 Jun 10 - 12:44 AM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 01:33 AM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 02:26 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 04 Jun 10 - 02:39 AM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 02:59 AM
greg stephens 04 Jun 10 - 03:28 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 04 Jun 10 - 03:29 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 04 Jun 10 - 03:38 AM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 03:42 AM
greg stephens 04 Jun 10 - 05:22 AM
Lox 04 Jun 10 - 05:31 AM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 06:06 AM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 06:15 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Jun 10 - 06:19 AM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Jun 10 - 06:24 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Jun 10 - 06:28 AM
Arnie 04 Jun 10 - 07:06 AM
Emma B 04 Jun 10 - 07:15 AM
Emma B 04 Jun 10 - 07:29 AM
bobad 04 Jun 10 - 07:44 AM
Lox 04 Jun 10 - 07:55 AM
Mr Happy 04 Jun 10 - 07:59 AM
Lox 04 Jun 10 - 08:06 AM
Emma B 04 Jun 10 - 08:25 AM
number 6 04 Jun 10 - 08:31 AM
freda underhill 04 Jun 10 - 08:39 AM
Emma B 04 Jun 10 - 08:51 AM
Mr Happy 04 Jun 10 - 08:52 AM
number 6 04 Jun 10 - 09:00 AM
bobad 04 Jun 10 - 09:04 AM
freda underhill 04 Jun 10 - 09:11 AM
freda underhill 04 Jun 10 - 09:19 AM
Emma B 04 Jun 10 - 09:24 AM
Emma B 04 Jun 10 - 09:35 AM
bobad 04 Jun 10 - 10:10 AM
Mr Happy 04 Jun 10 - 10:29 AM
mousethief 04 Jun 10 - 11:01 AM
Stringsinger 04 Jun 10 - 11:01 AM
mousethief 04 Jun 10 - 11:14 AM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 11:24 AM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 11:36 AM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 11:56 AM
mousethief 04 Jun 10 - 12:07 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 12:17 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Jun 10 - 12:34 PM
Roberto 04 Jun 10 - 12:37 PM
beardedbruce 04 Jun 10 - 12:37 PM
mousethief 04 Jun 10 - 12:38 PM
Emma B 04 Jun 10 - 01:05 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 01:05 PM
Emma B 04 Jun 10 - 01:07 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 01:07 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 01:12 PM
Roberto 04 Jun 10 - 01:15 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 01:16 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 01:17 PM
beardedbruce 04 Jun 10 - 01:22 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 01:29 PM
beardedbruce 04 Jun 10 - 01:33 PM
Emma B 04 Jun 10 - 01:39 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 01:40 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 01:43 PM
beardedbruce 04 Jun 10 - 01:49 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 01:51 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 01:52 PM
Emma B 04 Jun 10 - 02:13 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 02:13 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 02:14 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 02:30 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 04 Jun 10 - 02:41 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 02:56 PM
mousethief 04 Jun 10 - 03:53 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 04:20 PM
Emma B 04 Jun 10 - 04:21 PM
Roberto 04 Jun 10 - 04:34 PM
Emma B 04 Jun 10 - 04:41 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 04:53 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 05:06 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 04 Jun 10 - 05:17 PM
Emma B 04 Jun 10 - 05:27 PM
Ed T 04 Jun 10 - 05:28 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 05:34 PM
mousethief 04 Jun 10 - 05:35 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 05:39 PM
Ed T 04 Jun 10 - 05:41 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Jun 10 - 05:53 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 06:02 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 06:05 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Jun 10 - 06:10 PM
Ed T 04 Jun 10 - 06:14 PM
Ed T 04 Jun 10 - 06:17 PM
Ed T 04 Jun 10 - 06:18 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 06:23 PM
Ed T 04 Jun 10 - 06:28 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 06:33 PM
Emma B 04 Jun 10 - 06:33 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 06:35 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Jun 10 - 06:44 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 06:45 PM
Ed T 04 Jun 10 - 06:49 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 06:51 PM
Ed T 04 Jun 10 - 06:51 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 06:52 PM
Emma B 04 Jun 10 - 06:53 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 06:57 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 06:59 PM
Paul Burke 04 Jun 10 - 07:17 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 07:19 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 07:34 PM
bobad 04 Jun 10 - 07:34 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Jun 10 - 07:37 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 07:40 PM
bobad 04 Jun 10 - 07:49 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 07:53 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 07:55 PM
Lox 04 Jun 10 - 08:05 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 04 Jun 10 - 08:38 PM
mousethief 04 Jun 10 - 08:42 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 08:55 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 09:20 PM
Peace 04 Jun 10 - 09:21 PM
Emma B 04 Jun 10 - 09:31 PM
Paul Burke 04 Jun 10 - 09:57 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 10:23 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 10:39 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 10:40 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 10:42 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 10:49 PM
mousethief 04 Jun 10 - 10:56 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 11:02 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 11:08 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 11:18 PM
CarolC 04 Jun 10 - 11:20 PM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 12:34 AM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 02:04 AM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 02:27 AM
freda underhill 05 Jun 10 - 02:31 AM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 02:59 AM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 03:06 AM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 03:27 AM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 03:40 AM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 03:45 AM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 04:02 AM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 04:14 AM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 04:41 AM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 04:50 AM
Roberto 05 Jun 10 - 05:55 AM
Mr Happy 05 Jun 10 - 07:08 AM
Roberto 05 Jun 10 - 11:53 AM
mousethief 05 Jun 10 - 12:21 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Jun 10 - 12:23 PM
Ruth Archer 05 Jun 10 - 12:32 PM
Ruth Archer 05 Jun 10 - 12:34 PM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 12:35 PM
Ed T 05 Jun 10 - 12:38 PM
bobad 05 Jun 10 - 12:46 PM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 01:01 PM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 01:38 PM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 01:40 PM
Emma B 05 Jun 10 - 01:41 PM
bobad 05 Jun 10 - 01:44 PM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 01:46 PM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 01:48 PM
Ed T 05 Jun 10 - 01:52 PM
bobad 05 Jun 10 - 01:52 PM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 01:57 PM
bobad 05 Jun 10 - 02:01 PM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 02:07 PM
bobad 05 Jun 10 - 02:23 PM
Emma B 05 Jun 10 - 02:35 PM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 02:43 PM
Emma B 05 Jun 10 - 02:43 PM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 02:47 PM
bobad 05 Jun 10 - 02:50 PM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 02:53 PM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 03:38 PM
freda underhill 05 Jun 10 - 03:41 PM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 03:51 PM
Emma B 05 Jun 10 - 03:59 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Jun 10 - 04:30 PM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 04:39 PM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 05:06 PM
Emma B 05 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM
bobad 05 Jun 10 - 05:49 PM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 05:53 PM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 05:58 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Jun 10 - 06:15 PM
Emma B 05 Jun 10 - 06:27 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Jun 10 - 06:58 PM
Lox 05 Jun 10 - 07:12 PM
Ed T 05 Jun 10 - 09:33 PM
t.jack 05 Jun 10 - 10:04 PM
t.jack 05 Jun 10 - 10:25 PM
mousethief 05 Jun 10 - 10:35 PM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 10:55 PM
CarolC 05 Jun 10 - 11:18 PM
number 6 06 Jun 10 - 12:08 AM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 12:11 AM
number 6 06 Jun 10 - 12:20 AM
number 6 06 Jun 10 - 12:22 AM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 12:35 AM
number 6 06 Jun 10 - 12:41 AM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 01:22 AM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 01:52 AM
t.jack 06 Jun 10 - 07:23 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 10 - 07:32 AM
number 6 06 Jun 10 - 08:46 AM
Mr Happy 06 Jun 10 - 08:58 AM
Mr Happy 06 Jun 10 - 09:06 AM
Lox 06 Jun 10 - 09:11 AM
number 6 06 Jun 10 - 09:19 AM
John MacKenzie 06 Jun 10 - 10:02 AM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 10:26 AM
Ed T 06 Jun 10 - 10:29 AM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 10:36 AM
Ed T 06 Jun 10 - 10:40 AM
Ed T 06 Jun 10 - 10:42 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 10 - 10:46 AM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 10:55 AM
Ed T 06 Jun 10 - 11:13 AM
Ed T 06 Jun 10 - 11:15 AM
Mr Happy 06 Jun 10 - 11:16 AM
Emma B 06 Jun 10 - 11:22 AM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 11:24 AM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 11:33 AM
Ed T 06 Jun 10 - 11:37 AM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 11:52 AM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 11:55 AM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 12:20 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 10 - 12:32 PM
Ed T 06 Jun 10 - 12:36 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 12:36 PM
Emma B 06 Jun 10 - 12:36 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Jun 10 - 12:37 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 12:38 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 12:44 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 12:47 PM
Ed T 06 Jun 10 - 12:52 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 01:02 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Jun 10 - 01:02 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 01:04 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 01:10 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 01:20 PM
John MacKenzie 06 Jun 10 - 02:25 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 10 - 02:31 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 03:01 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 03:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Jun 10 - 03:19 PM
Ed T 06 Jun 10 - 03:22 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 03:23 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 03:27 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 10 - 03:44 PM
Ed T 06 Jun 10 - 03:50 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 03:54 PM
Ed T 06 Jun 10 - 03:55 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Jun 10 - 03:59 PM
Ed T 06 Jun 10 - 04:01 PM
Ed T 06 Jun 10 - 04:03 PM
Ed T 06 Jun 10 - 04:08 PM
robomatic 06 Jun 10 - 04:11 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 04:27 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 04:38 PM
John MacKenzie 06 Jun 10 - 04:44 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 04:48 PM
Ed T 06 Jun 10 - 04:52 PM
Roberto 06 Jun 10 - 04:53 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 05:09 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 06 Jun 10 - 06:09 PM
Lox 06 Jun 10 - 06:22 PM
robomatic 06 Jun 10 - 06:31 PM
Sorcha 06 Jun 10 - 06:36 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 06:37 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 06:38 PM
Ed T 06 Jun 10 - 06:40 PM
Emma B 06 Jun 10 - 06:59 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Jun 10 - 06:59 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 07:09 PM
Ed T 06 Jun 10 - 08:02 PM
Ed T 06 Jun 10 - 08:07 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 08:09 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 11:31 PM
CarolC 06 Jun 10 - 11:43 PM
CarolC 07 Jun 10 - 12:18 AM
CarolC 07 Jun 10 - 12:21 AM
CarolC 07 Jun 10 - 02:05 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jun 10 - 03:34 AM
John MacKenzie 07 Jun 10 - 03:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jun 10 - 04:25 AM
Lox 07 Jun 10 - 04:53 AM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Jun 10 - 05:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jun 10 - 06:26 AM
CarolC 07 Jun 10 - 07:16 AM
greg stephens 07 Jun 10 - 07:47 AM
bubblyrat 07 Jun 10 - 07:51 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jun 10 - 08:49 AM
greg stephens 07 Jun 10 - 09:01 AM
Mr Happy 07 Jun 10 - 09:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jun 10 - 10:36 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jun 10 - 11:21 AM
greg stephens 07 Jun 10 - 11:29 AM
greg stephens 07 Jun 10 - 11:33 AM
Emma B 07 Jun 10 - 11:58 AM
beardedbruce 07 Jun 10 - 12:00 PM
pdq 07 Jun 10 - 12:02 PM
number 6 07 Jun 10 - 12:19 PM
pdq 07 Jun 10 - 12:48 PM
Roberto 07 Jun 10 - 01:13 PM
Stringsinger 07 Jun 10 - 02:01 PM
number 6 07 Jun 10 - 03:05 PM
Lox 07 Jun 10 - 03:28 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Jun 10 - 03:30 PM
Lox 07 Jun 10 - 03:43 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 07 Jun 10 - 03:48 PM
beardedbruce 07 Jun 10 - 03:51 PM
beardedbruce 07 Jun 10 - 03:54 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 07 Jun 10 - 04:03 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 07 Jun 10 - 04:04 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 07 Jun 10 - 04:07 PM
bobad 07 Jun 10 - 04:10 PM
beardedbruce 07 Jun 10 - 04:11 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 07 Jun 10 - 04:19 PM
Lox 07 Jun 10 - 04:19 PM
beardedbruce 07 Jun 10 - 04:20 PM
beardedbruce 07 Jun 10 - 04:23 PM
Lox 07 Jun 10 - 04:32 PM
pdq 07 Jun 10 - 04:37 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Jun 10 - 04:38 PM
John MacKenzie 07 Jun 10 - 04:39 PM
number 6 07 Jun 10 - 04:39 PM
Lox 07 Jun 10 - 04:57 PM
pdq 07 Jun 10 - 05:22 PM
number 6 07 Jun 10 - 05:28 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Jun 10 - 05:47 PM
number 6 07 Jun 10 - 05:56 PM
bobad 07 Jun 10 - 06:23 PM
bobad 07 Jun 10 - 06:54 PM
Lox 07 Jun 10 - 07:20 PM
robomatic 07 Jun 10 - 07:55 PM
bobad 07 Jun 10 - 08:10 PM
number 6 07 Jun 10 - 08:48 PM
Ed T 07 Jun 10 - 09:20 PM
Emma B 07 Jun 10 - 09:29 PM
pdq 07 Jun 10 - 09:29 PM
mousethief 07 Jun 10 - 09:33 PM
t.jack 07 Jun 10 - 09:34 PM
bobad 07 Jun 10 - 09:46 PM
mousethief 07 Jun 10 - 09:54 PM
number 6 07 Jun 10 - 10:04 PM
bobad 07 Jun 10 - 10:09 PM
number 6 07 Jun 10 - 10:14 PM
CarolC 07 Jun 10 - 11:29 PM
CarolC 07 Jun 10 - 11:48 PM
CarolC 07 Jun 10 - 11:52 PM
CarolC 08 Jun 10 - 12:10 AM
CarolC 08 Jun 10 - 12:13 AM
John MacKenzie 08 Jun 10 - 03:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 10 - 03:59 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jun 10 - 05:16 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jun 10 - 05:29 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jun 10 - 05:30 AM
Emma B 08 Jun 10 - 05:59 AM
Emma B 08 Jun 10 - 06:48 AM
Ed T 08 Jun 10 - 06:48 AM
Penny S. 08 Jun 10 - 07:35 AM
Emma B 08 Jun 10 - 07:40 AM
Penny S. 08 Jun 10 - 07:41 AM
Penny S. 08 Jun 10 - 07:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 10 - 07:44 AM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Jun 10 - 07:45 AM
Ed T 08 Jun 10 - 07:48 AM
Ed T 08 Jun 10 - 07:51 AM
Penny S. 08 Jun 10 - 07:53 AM
Emma B 08 Jun 10 - 07:54 AM
Emma B 08 Jun 10 - 08:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 10 - 08:15 AM
Emma B 08 Jun 10 - 08:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 10 - 09:06 AM
CarolC 08 Jun 10 - 09:24 AM
CarolC 08 Jun 10 - 09:30 AM
Emma B 08 Jun 10 - 09:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Jun 10 - 10:11 AM
Greg F. 08 Jun 10 - 10:34 AM
bobad 08 Jun 10 - 10:42 AM
Emma B 08 Jun 10 - 10:43 AM
Penny S. 08 Jun 10 - 10:50 AM
Emma B 08 Jun 10 - 11:01 AM
Ed T 08 Jun 10 - 11:31 AM
Lox 08 Jun 10 - 11:48 AM
Lox 08 Jun 10 - 12:02 PM
CarolC 08 Jun 10 - 12:34 PM
CarolC 08 Jun 10 - 12:37 PM
CarolC 08 Jun 10 - 12:43 PM
CarolC 08 Jun 10 - 12:55 PM
mousethief 08 Jun 10 - 01:00 PM
beardedbruce 08 Jun 10 - 01:08 PM
CarolC 08 Jun 10 - 01:10 PM
mousethief 08 Jun 10 - 01:13 PM
beardedbruce 08 Jun 10 - 01:25 PM
CarolC 08 Jun 10 - 01:33 PM
beardedbruce 08 Jun 10 - 01:36 PM
mousethief 08 Jun 10 - 01:42 PM
CarolC 08 Jun 10 - 01:47 PM
Stringsinger 08 Jun 10 - 01:49 PM
CarolC 08 Jun 10 - 01:58 PM
Roberto 08 Jun 10 - 02:01 PM
bobad 08 Jun 10 - 02:19 PM
Greg F. 08 Jun 10 - 02:28 PM
Emma B 08 Jun 10 - 02:29 PM
CarolC 08 Jun 10 - 02:35 PM
Lox 08 Jun 10 - 02:48 PM
Penny S. 08 Jun 10 - 03:34 PM
robomatic 08 Jun 10 - 03:58 PM
Ed T 08 Jun 10 - 03:58 PM
bobad 08 Jun 10 - 03:59 PM
Ed T 08 Jun 10 - 04:08 PM
Ed T 08 Jun 10 - 04:12 PM
Lox 08 Jun 10 - 04:14 PM
Lox 08 Jun 10 - 04:39 PM
Emma B 08 Jun 10 - 04:50 PM
CarolC 08 Jun 10 - 04:56 PM
CarolC 08 Jun 10 - 05:10 PM
bobad 08 Jun 10 - 05:33 PM
robomatic 08 Jun 10 - 05:36 PM
Lox 08 Jun 10 - 06:07 PM
CarolC 08 Jun 10 - 06:09 PM
Ed T 08 Jun 10 - 06:12 PM
CarolC 08 Jun 10 - 06:12 PM
CarolC 08 Jun 10 - 06:14 PM
Lox 08 Jun 10 - 06:16 PM
Ed T 08 Jun 10 - 06:47 PM
Lox 08 Jun 10 - 07:07 PM
bobad 08 Jun 10 - 07:24 PM
Ed T 08 Jun 10 - 08:01 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jun 10 - 08:54 PM
CarolC 08 Jun 10 - 08:55 PM
CarolC 08 Jun 10 - 09:04 PM
bobad 08 Jun 10 - 09:07 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jun 10 - 09:18 PM
Ed T 08 Jun 10 - 09:26 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jun 10 - 09:29 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jun 10 - 09:48 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Jun 10 - 10:03 PM
bobad 08 Jun 10 - 10:27 PM
CarolC 08 Jun 10 - 10:32 PM
mousethief 08 Jun 10 - 10:33 PM
CarolC 08 Jun 10 - 11:21 PM
CarolC 08 Jun 10 - 11:38 PM
CarolC 09 Jun 10 - 01:06 AM
mousethief 09 Jun 10 - 01:24 AM
CarolC 09 Jun 10 - 01:44 AM
Roberto 09 Jun 10 - 01:54 AM
Roberto 09 Jun 10 - 02:25 AM
CarolC 09 Jun 10 - 02:33 AM
Roberto 09 Jun 10 - 02:48 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 10 - 03:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 10 - 04:03 AM
John MacKenzie 09 Jun 10 - 04:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 10 - 04:12 AM
Ed T 09 Jun 10 - 04:33 AM
Roberto 09 Jun 10 - 04:50 AM
Ed T 09 Jun 10 - 05:08 AM
Emma B 09 Jun 10 - 05:09 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 10 - 05:16 AM
Emma B 09 Jun 10 - 05:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 10 - 05:57 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 Jun 10 - 06:09 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 Jun 10 - 06:14 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 Jun 10 - 06:25 AM
Ed T 09 Jun 10 - 06:32 AM
bobad 09 Jun 10 - 06:42 AM
Lox 09 Jun 10 - 06:50 AM
Emma B 09 Jun 10 - 06:53 AM
Emma B 09 Jun 10 - 06:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 10 - 07:03 AM
Lox 09 Jun 10 - 07:04 AM
Ed T 09 Jun 10 - 07:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 10 - 07:09 AM
Emma B 09 Jun 10 - 07:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 10 - 07:11 AM
bobad 09 Jun 10 - 07:17 AM
Lox 09 Jun 10 - 07:22 AM
Ed T 09 Jun 10 - 07:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 10 - 07:35 AM
Lox 09 Jun 10 - 07:36 AM
Lox 09 Jun 10 - 07:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 10 - 07:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 10 - 07:57 AM
Lox 09 Jun 10 - 08:17 AM
Lox 09 Jun 10 - 08:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 10 - 08:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 10 - 08:36 AM
Lox 09 Jun 10 - 08:39 AM
Lox 09 Jun 10 - 08:45 AM
Lox 09 Jun 10 - 08:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 10 - 08:51 AM
Lox 09 Jun 10 - 08:52 AM
Lox 09 Jun 10 - 08:53 AM
Lox 09 Jun 10 - 08:56 AM
Emma B 09 Jun 10 - 09:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 10 - 09:10 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 10 - 09:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 10 - 09:15 AM
Lox 09 Jun 10 - 09:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 10 - 09:44 AM
bobad 09 Jun 10 - 09:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 10 - 09:54 AM
Stringsinger 09 Jun 10 - 09:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 10 - 09:57 AM
Lox 09 Jun 10 - 09:58 AM
Lox 09 Jun 10 - 10:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 10 - 11:06 AM
beardedbruce 09 Jun 10 - 11:20 AM
mousethief 09 Jun 10 - 11:41 AM
Emma B 09 Jun 10 - 12:26 PM
CarolC 09 Jun 10 - 01:10 PM
CarolC 09 Jun 10 - 01:15 PM
CarolC 09 Jun 10 - 01:18 PM
CarolC 09 Jun 10 - 01:22 PM
CarolC 09 Jun 10 - 01:25 PM
CarolC 09 Jun 10 - 01:27 PM
CarolC 09 Jun 10 - 01:42 PM
CarolC 09 Jun 10 - 01:50 PM
Joe Offer 09 Jun 10 - 01:54 PM
CarolC 09 Jun 10 - 01:59 PM
bobad 09 Jun 10 - 02:02 PM
CarolC 09 Jun 10 - 02:04 PM
CarolC 09 Jun 10 - 02:09 PM
Emma B 09 Jun 10 - 02:15 PM
CarolC 09 Jun 10 - 02:28 PM
robomatic 09 Jun 10 - 02:38 PM
CarolC 09 Jun 10 - 02:45 PM
CarolC 09 Jun 10 - 02:52 PM
beardedbruce 09 Jun 10 - 02:52 PM
Ed T 09 Jun 10 - 02:54 PM
CarolC 09 Jun 10 - 03:00 PM
Ed T 09 Jun 10 - 03:08 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 10 - 03:11 PM
Ed T 09 Jun 10 - 03:12 PM
Ed T 09 Jun 10 - 03:17 PM
CarolC 09 Jun 10 - 03:18 PM
Ed T 09 Jun 10 - 03:18 PM
Ed T 09 Jun 10 - 03:19 PM
CarolC 09 Jun 10 - 03:19 PM
Ed T 09 Jun 10 - 03:22 PM
CarolC 09 Jun 10 - 03:28 PM
Ed T 09 Jun 10 - 03:30 PM
CarolC 09 Jun 10 - 03:34 PM
CarolC 09 Jun 10 - 03:43 PM
Ed T 09 Jun 10 - 03:44 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Jun 10 - 03:45 PM
bobad 09 Jun 10 - 04:40 PM
CarolC 09 Jun 10 - 04:44 PM
CarolC 09 Jun 10 - 04:45 PM
CarolC 09 Jun 10 - 04:49 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Jun 10 - 05:05 PM
Roberto 09 Jun 10 - 05:06 PM
Lox 09 Jun 10 - 05:36 PM
Lox 09 Jun 10 - 05:40 PM
Lox 09 Jun 10 - 05:49 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 Jun 10 - 05:49 PM
CarolC 09 Jun 10 - 05:55 PM
Emma B 09 Jun 10 - 05:57 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 Jun 10 - 05:58 PM
CarolC 09 Jun 10 - 06:16 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 Jun 10 - 06:21 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 Jun 10 - 06:34 PM
mousethief 09 Jun 10 - 07:10 PM
bobad 09 Jun 10 - 07:18 PM
CarolC 09 Jun 10 - 07:27 PM
CarolC 09 Jun 10 - 07:34 PM
bobad 09 Jun 10 - 07:40 PM
mousethief 09 Jun 10 - 11:32 PM
Roberto 10 Jun 10 - 01:36 AM
mousethief 10 Jun 10 - 01:49 AM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 02:01 AM
Roberto 10 Jun 10 - 02:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 10 - 03:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 10 - 03:27 AM
Lox 10 Jun 10 - 03:34 AM
Roberto 10 Jun 10 - 05:22 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jun 10 - 05:41 AM
bobad 10 Jun 10 - 06:00 AM
Lox 10 Jun 10 - 06:21 AM
Roberto 10 Jun 10 - 06:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 10 - 06:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 10 - 06:37 AM
Lox 10 Jun 10 - 06:40 AM
Roberto 10 Jun 10 - 06:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 10 - 07:11 AM
Lox 10 Jun 10 - 07:14 AM
Lox 10 Jun 10 - 07:20 AM
bobad 10 Jun 10 - 07:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 10 - 07:38 AM
Lox 10 Jun 10 - 07:49 AM
Lox 10 Jun 10 - 08:06 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jun 10 - 09:17 AM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 09:17 AM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 09:27 AM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 09:31 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jun 10 - 09:36 AM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 09:41 AM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 09:49 AM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 09:56 AM
Roberto 10 Jun 10 - 10:02 AM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 10:03 AM
Roberto 10 Jun 10 - 10:11 AM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 10:16 AM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 10:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Jun 10 - 10:22 AM
Roberto 10 Jun 10 - 10:22 AM
Lox 10 Jun 10 - 10:24 AM
Roberto 10 Jun 10 - 10:24 AM
Lox 10 Jun 10 - 10:32 AM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 10:43 AM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 10:46 AM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 10:49 AM
Roberto 10 Jun 10 - 10:57 AM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 11:05 AM
Mr Happy 10 Jun 10 - 11:12 AM
Roberto 10 Jun 10 - 11:16 AM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 11:25 AM
Roberto 10 Jun 10 - 11:40 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jun 10 - 11:45 AM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 12:07 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 12:10 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Jun 10 - 12:19 PM
Lox 10 Jun 10 - 12:24 PM
Lox 10 Jun 10 - 12:27 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 12:33 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 12:47 PM
Roberto 10 Jun 10 - 12:58 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 10 Jun 10 - 01:06 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 01:12 PM
beardedbruce 10 Jun 10 - 01:16 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 01:21 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 01:24 PM
Roberto 10 Jun 10 - 01:25 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 01:41 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 02:01 PM
beardedbruce 10 Jun 10 - 02:14 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Jun 10 - 02:23 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 02:24 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 02:27 PM
beardedbruce 10 Jun 10 - 02:30 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 02:39 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Jun 10 - 02:56 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Jun 10 - 03:14 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Jun 10 - 03:36 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 03:58 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 04:02 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 04:02 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 04:30 PM
Emma B 10 Jun 10 - 04:36 PM
Roberto 10 Jun 10 - 04:48 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Jun 10 - 05:12 PM
Ed T 10 Jun 10 - 05:19 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 05:21 PM
Emma B 10 Jun 10 - 05:23 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 05:24 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 05:26 PM
Lox 10 Jun 10 - 05:27 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 05:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Jun 10 - 05:37 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 05:43 PM
Emma B 10 Jun 10 - 05:45 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 05:46 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Jun 10 - 06:07 PM
Emma B 10 Jun 10 - 06:17 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 06:19 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Jun 10 - 06:31 PM
Lox 10 Jun 10 - 06:35 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 07:39 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 08:11 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Jun 10 - 08:16 PM
Joe Offer 10 Jun 10 - 08:16 PM
Emma B 10 Jun 10 - 08:18 PM
CarolC 10 Jun 10 - 08:24 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Jun 10 - 08:54 PM
CarolC 11 Jun 10 - 01:08 AM
Roberto 11 Jun 10 - 01:43 AM
mousethief 11 Jun 10 - 01:46 AM
Roberto 11 Jun 10 - 01:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 10 - 01:57 AM
mousethief 11 Jun 10 - 02:10 AM
CarolC 11 Jun 10 - 02:34 AM
CarolC 11 Jun 10 - 02:48 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jun 10 - 03:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 10 - 03:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 10 - 03:52 AM
CarolC 11 Jun 10 - 03:52 AM
CarolC 11 Jun 10 - 03:53 AM
CarolC 11 Jun 10 - 04:07 AM
Lox 11 Jun 10 - 05:38 AM
Lox 11 Jun 10 - 05:46 AM
Lox 11 Jun 10 - 05:50 AM
Lox 11 Jun 10 - 05:57 AM
Lox 11 Jun 10 - 06:08 AM
Penny S. 11 Jun 10 - 07:16 AM
Penny S. 11 Jun 10 - 07:17 AM
Lox 11 Jun 10 - 07:25 AM
bobad 11 Jun 10 - 07:56 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Jun 10 - 08:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 10 - 08:07 AM
Lox 11 Jun 10 - 08:12 AM
Emma B 11 Jun 10 - 09:46 AM
beardedbruce 11 Jun 10 - 09:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Jun 10 - 10:06 AM
Lox 11 Jun 10 - 11:11 AM
beardedbruce 11 Jun 10 - 11:26 AM
CarolC 11 Jun 10 - 12:07 PM
CarolC 11 Jun 10 - 12:10 PM
Emma B 11 Jun 10 - 12:12 PM
CarolC 11 Jun 10 - 12:14 PM
CarolC 11 Jun 10 - 12:20 PM
CarolC 11 Jun 10 - 12:24 PM
mousethief 11 Jun 10 - 12:37 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 11 Jun 10 - 12:43 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 11 Jun 10 - 12:50 PM
Emma B 11 Jun 10 - 12:52 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 11 Jun 10 - 01:04 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Jun 10 - 01:50 PM
mousethief 11 Jun 10 - 01:54 PM
Emma B 11 Jun 10 - 02:22 PM
mousethief 11 Jun 10 - 02:34 PM
CarolC 11 Jun 10 - 03:20 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Jun 10 - 04:58 PM
CarolC 11 Jun 10 - 06:04 PM
beardedbruce 11 Jun 10 - 06:17 PM
CarolC 11 Jun 10 - 06:21 PM
CarolC 11 Jun 10 - 06:23 PM
Paul Burke 11 Jun 10 - 06:30 PM
Paul Burke 11 Jun 10 - 06:31 PM
beardedbruce 11 Jun 10 - 06:46 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Jun 10 - 06:49 PM
CarolC 11 Jun 10 - 06:50 PM
Lox 11 Jun 10 - 07:05 PM
Lox 11 Jun 10 - 10:00 PM
bobad 11 Jun 10 - 10:15 PM
number 6 11 Jun 10 - 10:18 PM
Lox 11 Jun 10 - 10:29 PM
CarolC 11 Jun 10 - 10:33 PM
Lox 11 Jun 10 - 10:39 PM
CarolC 11 Jun 10 - 10:41 PM
Lox 11 Jun 10 - 10:49 PM
number 6 11 Jun 10 - 10:49 PM
bobad 11 Jun 10 - 10:52 PM
CarolC 11 Jun 10 - 10:56 PM
Lox 11 Jun 10 - 10:58 PM
CarolC 11 Jun 10 - 11:02 PM
Lox 11 Jun 10 - 11:10 PM
number 6 11 Jun 10 - 11:13 PM
CarolC 11 Jun 10 - 11:16 PM
number 6 11 Jun 10 - 11:18 PM
bobad 11 Jun 10 - 11:18 PM
CarolC 11 Jun 10 - 11:24 PM
CarolC 12 Jun 10 - 12:47 AM
CarolC 12 Jun 10 - 12:50 AM
CarolC 12 Jun 10 - 01:22 AM
CarolC 12 Jun 10 - 01:54 AM
Penny S. 12 Jun 10 - 05:32 AM
Lox 12 Jun 10 - 05:41 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 12 Jun 10 - 06:55 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 12 Jun 10 - 07:57 AM
Stringsinger 12 Jun 10 - 02:23 PM
CarolC 12 Jun 10 - 04:18 PM
CarolC 12 Jun 10 - 04:26 PM
CarolC 12 Jun 10 - 11:52 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 13 Jun 10 - 03:27 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 13 Jun 10 - 04:00 AM
CarolC 13 Jun 10 - 04:23 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 13 Jun 10 - 06:13 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Jun 10 - 09:38 AM
Roberto 13 Jun 10 - 10:21 AM
Emma B 13 Jun 10 - 10:48 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Jun 10 - 11:00 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 13 Jun 10 - 11:13 AM
Emma B 13 Jun 10 - 11:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 10 - 12:09 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Jun 10 - 12:17 PM
Emma B 13 Jun 10 - 12:42 PM
CarolC 13 Jun 10 - 12:54 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 10 - 02:27 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 10 - 02:36 PM
CarolC 13 Jun 10 - 02:42 PM
CarolC 13 Jun 10 - 02:44 PM
Stringsinger 13 Jun 10 - 02:49 PM
Art Thieme 13 Jun 10 - 02:57 PM
Ed T 13 Jun 10 - 03:44 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 10 - 03:44 PM
Emma B 13 Jun 10 - 04:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Jun 10 - 05:37 PM
CarolC 13 Jun 10 - 06:09 PM
CarolC 14 Jun 10 - 12:52 AM
CarolC 14 Jun 10 - 02:22 AM
mousethief 14 Jun 10 - 02:27 AM
Penny S. 14 Jun 10 - 02:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 10 - 03:59 AM
CarolC 14 Jun 10 - 05:54 AM
Lox 14 Jun 10 - 06:01 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 14 Jun 10 - 07:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 10 - 07:54 AM
Roberto 14 Jun 10 - 08:55 AM
Lox 14 Jun 10 - 09:23 AM
Lox 14 Jun 10 - 09:27 AM
beardedbruce 14 Jun 10 - 09:30 AM
Lox 14 Jun 10 - 09:47 AM
Roberto 14 Jun 10 - 09:50 AM
Lox 14 Jun 10 - 09:59 AM
beardedbruce 14 Jun 10 - 10:08 AM
Lox 14 Jun 10 - 10:23 AM
beardedbruce 14 Jun 10 - 10:26 AM
Roberto 14 Jun 10 - 10:32 AM
Lox 14 Jun 10 - 11:42 AM
CarolC 14 Jun 10 - 11:50 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 14 Jun 10 - 11:52 AM
CarolC 14 Jun 10 - 12:13 PM
mousethief 14 Jun 10 - 12:39 PM
CarolC 14 Jun 10 - 01:06 PM
beardedbruce 14 Jun 10 - 01:09 PM
CarolC 14 Jun 10 - 01:13 PM
Roberto 14 Jun 10 - 01:21 PM
CarolC 14 Jun 10 - 01:27 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 14 Jun 10 - 01:38 PM
CarolC 14 Jun 10 - 01:45 PM
Roberto 14 Jun 10 - 01:50 PM
mousethief 14 Jun 10 - 01:54 PM
Roberto 14 Jun 10 - 02:01 PM
mousethief 14 Jun 10 - 02:03 PM
Roberto 14 Jun 10 - 02:09 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 14 Jun 10 - 02:09 PM
mousethief 14 Jun 10 - 02:16 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Jun 10 - 02:18 PM
mousethief 14 Jun 10 - 02:27 PM
CarolC 14 Jun 10 - 02:29 PM
CarolC 14 Jun 10 - 02:31 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 14 Jun 10 - 02:39 PM
CarolC 14 Jun 10 - 02:44 PM
Lox 14 Jun 10 - 03:19 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 14 Jun 10 - 03:58 PM
CarolC 14 Jun 10 - 04:14 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 14 Jun 10 - 04:32 PM
CarolC 14 Jun 10 - 05:52 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Jun 10 - 09:00 PM
CarolC 15 Jun 10 - 01:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jun 10 - 05:03 AM
Lox 15 Jun 10 - 05:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jun 10 - 05:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jun 10 - 06:11 AM
Emma B 15 Jun 10 - 06:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jun 10 - 07:03 AM
Roberto 15 Jun 10 - 11:47 AM
CarolC 15 Jun 10 - 11:52 AM
beardedbruce 15 Jun 10 - 11:56 AM
CarolC 15 Jun 10 - 11:56 AM
CarolC 15 Jun 10 - 11:58 AM
beardedbruce 15 Jun 10 - 12:04 PM
Roberto 15 Jun 10 - 12:12 PM
CarolC 15 Jun 10 - 12:14 PM
CarolC 15 Jun 10 - 12:15 PM
Roberto 15 Jun 10 - 12:24 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jun 10 - 12:24 PM
beardedbruce 15 Jun 10 - 12:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jun 10 - 12:32 PM
Greg F. 15 Jun 10 - 12:33 PM
CarolC 15 Jun 10 - 12:36 PM
CarolC 15 Jun 10 - 12:40 PM
beardedbruce 15 Jun 10 - 12:42 PM
Roberto 15 Jun 10 - 12:44 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jun 10 - 12:47 PM
CarolC 15 Jun 10 - 12:53 PM
beardedbruce 15 Jun 10 - 12:59 PM
CarolC 15 Jun 10 - 01:00 PM
CarolC 15 Jun 10 - 01:05 PM
Roberto 15 Jun 10 - 01:13 PM
CarolC 15 Jun 10 - 01:17 PM
Roberto 15 Jun 10 - 01:17 PM
CarolC 15 Jun 10 - 01:20 PM
Lox 15 Jun 10 - 07:19 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Jun 10 - 07:19 PM
CarolC 15 Jun 10 - 09:55 PM
CarolC 15 Jun 10 - 09:58 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 10 - 02:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 10 - 03:25 AM
beardedbruce 16 Jun 10 - 06:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 10 - 07:07 AM
beardedbruce 16 Jun 10 - 07:11 AM
beardedbruce 16 Jun 10 - 07:19 AM
Lox 16 Jun 10 - 07:48 AM
Lox 16 Jun 10 - 08:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 10 - 08:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 10 - 09:14 AM
Lox 16 Jun 10 - 09:17 AM
Lox 16 Jun 10 - 09:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 10 - 09:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 10 - 09:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 10 - 10:02 AM
CarolC 16 Jun 10 - 11:39 AM
CarolC 16 Jun 10 - 11:42 AM
CarolC 16 Jun 10 - 11:46 AM
CarolC 16 Jun 10 - 11:47 AM
beardedbruce 16 Jun 10 - 11:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 10 - 11:56 AM
mousethief 16 Jun 10 - 02:15 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 16 Jun 10 - 02:28 PM
Greg F. 16 Jun 10 - 02:29 PM
bobad 16 Jun 10 - 02:32 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 16 Jun 10 - 02:45 PM
bobad 16 Jun 10 - 02:51 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 16 Jun 10 - 02:52 PM
bobad 16 Jun 10 - 02:56 PM
Lox 16 Jun 10 - 03:38 PM
beardedbruce 16 Jun 10 - 03:45 PM
Lox 16 Jun 10 - 03:56 PM
Lox 16 Jun 10 - 04:02 PM
Lox 16 Jun 10 - 04:11 PM
beardedbruce 16 Jun 10 - 04:14 PM
Greg F. 16 Jun 10 - 04:40 PM
beardedbruce 16 Jun 10 - 04:48 PM
Emma B 16 Jun 10 - 05:00 PM
bobad 16 Jun 10 - 05:11 PM
mousethief 16 Jun 10 - 05:41 PM
Emma B 16 Jun 10 - 05:45 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 10 - 05:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 10 - 06:14 PM
CarolC 16 Jun 10 - 09:58 PM
CarolC 16 Jun 10 - 10:05 PM
CarolC 16 Jun 10 - 10:08 PM
CarolC 16 Jun 10 - 10:11 PM
CarolC 16 Jun 10 - 10:29 PM
CarolC 16 Jun 10 - 10:40 PM
CarolC 16 Jun 10 - 10:49 PM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 12:09 AM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 12:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 02:13 AM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 02:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 03:20 AM
Lox 17 Jun 10 - 04:33 AM
Lox 17 Jun 10 - 04:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 04:49 AM
Lox 17 Jun 10 - 04:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 04:51 AM
Lox 17 Jun 10 - 05:17 AM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 05:29 AM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 05:35 AM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 05:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 05:52 AM
Lox 17 Jun 10 - 05:58 AM
Lox 17 Jun 10 - 06:01 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Jun 10 - 06:03 AM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 06:06 AM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 06:09 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Jun 10 - 06:15 AM
Emma B 17 Jun 10 - 06:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 06:17 AM
Emma B 17 Jun 10 - 06:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 06:23 AM
Lox 17 Jun 10 - 06:31 AM
Lox 17 Jun 10 - 06:34 AM
Lox 17 Jun 10 - 06:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 06:43 AM
Emma B 17 Jun 10 - 06:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 06:57 AM
Lox 17 Jun 10 - 07:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 07:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 08:00 AM
Lox 17 Jun 10 - 08:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 08:27 AM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 08:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 08:50 AM
Lox 17 Jun 10 - 08:56 AM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 08:59 AM
Lox 17 Jun 10 - 09:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 09:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 09:34 AM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 09:40 AM
Lox 17 Jun 10 - 09:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 09:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 09:50 AM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 09:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 10:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 11:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 11:26 AM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 12:10 PM
beardedbruce 17 Jun 10 - 12:30 PM
beardedbruce 17 Jun 10 - 12:43 PM
beardedbruce 17 Jun 10 - 12:46 PM
mousethief 17 Jun 10 - 02:07 PM
Greg F. 17 Jun 10 - 02:18 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 10 - 02:57 PM
beardedbruce 17 Jun 10 - 03:06 PM
Lox 17 Jun 10 - 04:40 PM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 05:24 PM
CarolC 17 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM
Lox 17 Jun 10 - 05:45 PM
Greg F. 17 Jun 10 - 06:10 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Jun 10 - 07:16 PM
Stringsinger 17 Jun 10 - 08:00 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 10 - 05:08 AM
Lox 18 Jun 10 - 09:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 10 - 09:31 AM
CarolC 18 Jun 10 - 11:22 AM
CarolC 18 Jun 10 - 11:23 AM
CarolC 18 Jun 10 - 11:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 10 - 12:02 PM
CarolC 18 Jun 10 - 12:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 10 - 12:51 PM
Paul Burke 18 Jun 10 - 09:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jun 10 - 02:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jun 10 - 06:51 AM
mousethief 19 Jun 10 - 12:07 PM
Ed T 19 Jun 10 - 02:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jun 10 - 01:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jun 10 - 08:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Jun 10 - 05:04 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jun 10 - 05:15 AM
mousethief 23 Jun 10 - 11:43 AM
Stringsinger 23 Jun 10 - 07:12 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jun 10 - 02:46 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 10 - 09:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jun 10 - 10:04 AM
mousethief 24 Jun 10 - 01:44 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jun 10 - 02:27 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 10 - 02:41 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jun 10 - 05:20 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 24 Jun 10 - 05:22 PM
bobad 24 Jun 10 - 07:42 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jun 10 - 08:15 PM
robomatic 24 Jun 10 - 11:44 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jun 10 - 02:02 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 Jun 10 - 06:19 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 10 - 06:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jun 10 - 06:31 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 25 Jun 10 - 06:38 AM
Greg F. 25 Jun 10 - 08:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jun 10 - 08:53 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 Jun 10 - 01:42 PM
beardedbruce 25 Jun 10 - 01:45 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 Jun 10 - 02:00 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 Jun 10 - 02:12 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 10 - 03:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jun 10 - 06:03 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 10 - 08:28 AM
bobad 26 Jun 10 - 08:44 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 10 - 08:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jun 10 - 10:47 AM
bobad 26 Jun 10 - 10:56 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 10 - 11:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jun 10 - 12:49 PM
mousethief 26 Jun 10 - 12:56 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 10 - 12:59 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 26 Jun 10 - 02:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jun 10 - 04:14 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 26 Jun 10 - 04:28 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 26 Jun 10 - 04:35 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jun 10 - 04:38 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 26 Jun 10 - 04:44 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 26 Jun 10 - 04:46 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jun 10 - 04:52 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 26 Jun 10 - 04:56 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jun 10 - 01:45 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 27 Jun 10 - 07:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jun 10 - 02:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jun 10 - 03:08 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jun 10 - 04:04 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jun 10 - 04:38 AM
Emma B 28 Jun 10 - 06:15 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 Jun 10 - 06:15 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 Jun 10 - 06:20 AM
Emma B 28 Jun 10 - 07:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jun 10 - 03:03 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jun 10 - 03:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jun 10 - 06:44 PM
mousethief 28 Jun 10 - 09:12 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jun 10 - 01:26 AM
mousethief 29 Jun 10 - 02:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jun 10 - 04:06 AM
Emma B 29 Jun 10 - 05:43 AM
Emma B 29 Jun 10 - 08:27 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jun 10 - 09:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Jun 10 - 10:09 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jun 10 - 02:53 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 29 Jun 10 - 02:54 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jun 10 - 02:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jun 10 - 02:14 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Jun 10 - 03:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jun 10 - 03:59 AM
Emma B 30 Jun 10 - 05:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jun 10 - 05:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jun 10 - 06:03 AM
Emma B 30 Jun 10 - 06:04 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 30 Jun 10 - 06:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jun 10 - 06:57 AM
Emma B 30 Jun 10 - 11:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jun 10 - 11:51 AM
Emma B 30 Jun 10 - 12:39 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Jun 10 - 02:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Jun 10 - 03:24 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jul 10 - 02:35 AM
Emma B 01 Jul 10 - 05:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jul 10 - 07:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jul 10 - 08:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jul 10 - 08:49 AM
Emma B 01 Jul 10 - 09:01 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 01 Jul 10 - 07:17 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jul 10 - 01:36 AM
Emma B 02 Jul 10 - 06:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jul 10 - 06:38 AM
Emma B 02 Jul 10 - 07:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jul 10 - 07:17 AM
Emma B 02 Jul 10 - 07:46 AM
bobad 02 Jul 10 - 07:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jul 10 - 08:46 AM
Emma B 02 Jul 10 - 12:31 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jul 10 - 01:14 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Jul 10 - 03:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jul 10 - 04:37 AM
Emma B 03 Jul 10 - 07:00 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 10 - 08:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jul 10 - 05:42 AM
bobad 18 Jul 10 - 06:47 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jul 10 - 10:51 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Jul 10 - 01:50 PM
greg stephens 18 Jul 10 - 02:55 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Jul 10 - 03:04 PM
greg stephens 18 Jul 10 - 03:08 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Jul 10 - 04:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jul 10 - 05:07 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 18 Jul 10 - 05:31 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Jul 10 - 06:03 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jul 10 - 01:52 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 10 - 02:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jul 10 - 03:23 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 19 Jul 10 - 06:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jul 10 - 07:23 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 10 - 07:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jul 10 - 07:44 AM
bobad 19 Jul 10 - 07:50 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Jul 10 - 08:03 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 10 - 08:24 AM
beardedbruce 19 Jul 10 - 11:47 AM
greg stephens 19 Jul 10 - 11:54 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 10 - 12:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Jul 10 - 01:08 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 10 - 01:17 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 10 - 01:36 PM
beardedbruce 19 Jul 10 - 01:44 PM
bobad 19 Jul 10 - 01:56 PM
beardedbruce 19 Jul 10 - 02:20 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 10 - 02:39 PM
beardedbruce 19 Jul 10 - 03:07 PM
beardedbruce 19 Jul 10 - 05:06 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 10 - 06:14 PM
beardedbruce 19 Jul 10 - 06:31 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 10 - 07:26 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 10 - 07:31 PM
bobad 19 Jul 10 - 07:46 PM
beardedbruce 19 Jul 10 - 08:02 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 10 - 03:58 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 20 Jul 10 - 04:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jul 10 - 05:33 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 10 - 07:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jul 10 - 08:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jul 10 - 09:43 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 10 - 09:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jul 10 - 10:16 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 10 - 10:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jul 10 - 11:46 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 10 - 12:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jul 10 - 01:17 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jul 10 - 01:20 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 10 - 02:54 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 10 - 02:58 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 20 Jul 10 - 03:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jul 10 - 06:21 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Jul 10 - 08:54 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Jul 10 - 09:04 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Jul 10 - 09:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 10 - 02:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 10 - 02:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 10 - 02:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 10 - 02:23 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 10 - 03:23 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 10 - 03:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 10 - 04:42 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 10 - 05:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 10 - 05:28 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Jul 10 - 06:43 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Jul 10 - 06:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 10 - 06:55 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Jul 10 - 07:25 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Jul 10 - 07:30 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 10 - 07:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 10 - 07:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 10 - 07:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 10 - 08:24 AM
beardedbruce 21 Jul 10 - 09:16 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 10 - 09:24 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 10 - 09:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 10 - 09:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 10 - 09:56 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 10 - 10:13 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 10 - 10:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jul 10 - 11:05 AM
Emma B 21 Jul 10 - 01:17 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 10 - 01:28 PM
Emma B 21 Jul 10 - 05:37 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 10 - 06:11 PM
The Fooles Troupe 21 Jul 10 - 07:23 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Jul 10 - 07:23 PM
The Fooles Troupe 21 Jul 10 - 07:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jul 10 - 04:33 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jul 10 - 04:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jul 10 - 04:58 AM
Emma B 22 Jul 10 - 05:06 AM
The Fooles Troupe 22 Jul 10 - 05:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jul 10 - 05:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jul 10 - 05:51 AM
The Fooles Troupe 22 Jul 10 - 06:38 AM
Emma B 22 Jul 10 - 06:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jul 10 - 06:57 AM
Emma B 22 Jul 10 - 10:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jul 10 - 10:39 AM
Emma B 22 Jul 10 - 12:44 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jul 10 - 01:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jul 10 - 01:18 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Jul 10 - 01:21 PM
Emma B 22 Jul 10 - 02:13 PM
bobad 22 Jul 10 - 03:20 PM
Emma B 22 Jul 10 - 06:32 PM
The Fooles Troupe 22 Jul 10 - 06:58 PM
bobad 22 Jul 10 - 07:04 PM
bobad 22 Jul 10 - 07:12 PM
Emma B 22 Jul 10 - 07:16 PM
The Fooles Troupe 22 Jul 10 - 08:20 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Jul 10 - 08:10 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 10 - 12:54 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jul 10 - 01:25 PM
Greg F. 24 Jul 10 - 01:33 PM
Emma B 24 Jul 10 - 01:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jul 10 - 01:56 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 24 Jul 10 - 02:13 PM
Emma B 24 Jul 10 - 02:35 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 10 - 02:54 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Jul 10 - 05:45 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 24 Jul 10 - 05:45 PM
Emma B 24 Jul 10 - 06:32 PM
bobad 24 Jul 10 - 07:22 PM
Emma B 24 Jul 10 - 09:19 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 10 - 02:51 AM
Roberto 25 Jul 10 - 03:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jul 10 - 03:18 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 10 - 04:31 AM
Emma B 25 Jul 10 - 06:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jul 10 - 10:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jul 10 - 10:15 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 10 - 10:35 AM
Emma B 25 Jul 10 - 10:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jul 10 - 10:55 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 10 - 11:25 AM
Emma B 25 Jul 10 - 11:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jul 10 - 11:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jul 10 - 11:45 AM
Emma B 25 Jul 10 - 12:36 PM
pdq 25 Jul 10 - 12:50 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jul 10 - 12:58 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jul 10 - 01:02 PM
pdq 25 Jul 10 - 01:12 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 10 - 01:17 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jul 10 - 01:45 PM
Emma B 25 Jul 10 - 02:11 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jul 10 - 02:22 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 10 - 03:28 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jul 10 - 03:52 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 10 - 04:38 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 Jul 10 - 05:38 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 25 Jul 10 - 06:15 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Jul 10 - 06:50 PM
pdq 25 Jul 10 - 07:03 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 10 - 07:18 PM
pdq 25 Jul 10 - 07:19 PM
Emma B 25 Jul 10 - 08:28 PM
pdq 25 Jul 10 - 08:47 PM
Emma B 25 Jul 10 - 09:12 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 10 - 03:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 10 - 03:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 10 - 03:31 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 10 - 03:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 10 - 04:43 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 10 - 05:26 AM
Emma B 26 Jul 10 - 05:36 AM
Emma B 26 Jul 10 - 05:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 10 - 06:08 AM
Emma B 26 Jul 10 - 06:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 10 - 07:21 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 10 - 09:25 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 10 - 09:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 10 - 10:00 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 10 - 10:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 10 - 10:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 10 - 11:33 AM
Emma B 26 Jul 10 - 11:49 AM
beardedbruce 26 Jul 10 - 12:31 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 10 - 01:35 PM
beardedbruce 26 Jul 10 - 01:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Jul 10 - 02:17 PM
beardedbruce 26 Jul 10 - 02:57 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 10 - 03:45 PM
beardedbruce 26 Jul 10 - 03:50 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 10 - 04:20 PM
beardedbruce 26 Jul 10 - 04:39 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jul 10 - 05:56 PM
Emma B 26 Jul 10 - 06:08 PM
beardedbruce 26 Jul 10 - 06:14 PM
The Fooles Troupe 26 Jul 10 - 11:08 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 10 - 03:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jul 10 - 04:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Jul 10 - 05:19 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 10 - 07:15 AM
The Fooles Troupe 27 Jul 10 - 08:06 AM
Roberto 27 Jul 10 - 09:40 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 10 - 01:00 PM
beardedbruce 27 Jul 10 - 02:20 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 10 - 03:02 PM
beardedbruce 27 Jul 10 - 03:24 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 10 - 04:09 PM
beardedbruce 27 Jul 10 - 04:14 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Jul 10 - 04:43 PM
Emma B 27 Jul 10 - 05:11 PM
beardedbruce 27 Jul 10 - 05:29 PM
Emma B 27 Jul 10 - 05:50 PM
Peace 27 Jul 10 - 05:59 PM
The Fooles Troupe 27 Jul 10 - 09:32 PM
The Fooles Troupe 27 Jul 10 - 09:37 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Jul 10 - 03:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jul 10 - 03:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jul 10 - 03:57 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jul 10 - 05:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jul 10 - 05:54 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jul 10 - 06:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jul 10 - 07:09 AM
The Fooles Troupe 28 Jul 10 - 07:28 AM
The Fooles Troupe 28 Jul 10 - 07:32 AM
The Fooles Troupe 28 Jul 10 - 07:36 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jul 10 - 07:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jul 10 - 08:12 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jul 10 - 10:32 AM
The Fooles Troupe 28 Jul 10 - 10:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Jul 10 - 11:04 AM
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Subject: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: michaelr
Date: 31 May 10 - 01:12 AM

How much longer can the US justify supporting the Israeli terror against peaceful civilians? Story here.

    No Guest Posts Will Be Allowed On This Thread.

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    -Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: DougR
Date: 31 May 10 - 01:38 AM

For a long, long time, Michaelr. Israel is the best friend we have in the mid-east. Probably the only one, actually.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 May 10 - 02:08 AM

Naturally, Doug. Your government's imperial policies there directly or indirectly attack, exploit, and oppress everyone in that entire region except Israel. You are partners in crime there, so why wouldn't they be your only friend in the area under such conditions? It's rather like Al Capone saying that one of his top hit men is his "good friend".   Common interests is what that is, not friendship.

Mussolini was Hitler's "good friend" too, you know...and then there was Beria and Stalin...similar arrangements.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: polaitaly
Date: 31 May 10 - 02:27 AM

On the italian press the dead reported are at least 16.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 31 May 10 - 03:58 AM

Israel will make peace when they have completely taken over the west bank and forced all the palestinians into Jordan or overseas, then starved out Gaza so they all flee or die as well. They have their own chapter in "Famous violations of the Geneva Conventions and other international agreements." It's a very sad and angering thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 31 May 10 - 05:33 AM

The Israeli Government and Military are ruthless criminals.

Last night they murdered 20 civilians in international waters.

They did this to prevent food, medicine and building materials for schools and hospitals from gettng through to a city dying of poverty.

Let Obama, Cameron and Clegg be judged by their reactions.

And if they are not united in utterly condemning Israels actions last night then damn them to hell.

I spit in the eye of anyone who dares to defend such a horrendous crime against humanity.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 31 May 10 - 05:37 AM

Mark Regev, the Israeli spokesman says:

"They initiated the violence, that's 100% clear"

Presumably this was after hundreds of armed commandos descended from helicopters and climbed on board from rubber dinghies and stormed the ships.

What a fucking liar!


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 May 10 - 05:40 AM

If anyone else did this it'd be recognized for what it is - piracy on the high seas.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 31 May 10 - 06:58 AM

TROLL ALERT!

The post by GUESTheric must be an imposter.

It states "he never got enough of them" referring apparently to Hitler and the Jews.

I have never read a post by Heric advocating such views.

Anti semitic bullshit is not welcome on the mudcat.

Anti semites are not welcome on my political platform.


I will be requesting that Guest posts are excluded from this thread.
    The post does appear to be from an impostor, so I deleted it. -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim McLean
Date: 31 May 10 - 07:39 AM

I agree with LOX and this should not be an anti Jewish thread. However this attack on the civilian aid convoy cannot, must not go without some form of very strong protest from everyone. How can one make one's voice heard effectively?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 May 10 - 07:43 AM

Be interesting to hear what the resident Canadians have to say?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 May 10 - 07:50 AM

By which I mean, how this incident is reported there and so-on - in view of Canada's public position regards Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 May 10 - 08:00 AM

What is Canada's public position regarding Israel?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 May 10 - 08:45 AM

Well, I'm not condoning the attack - if it happened as reported by one side and not the other. On the other hand, Israel is at war and Gaza is blockaded - and I have no interest in discussing the legality of the war or Israel's existence for the umpteen zillionith time. The Israelis said that the aid on that convoy would be delivered if landed at a regular port. The actions of the convoy's leaders were intended solely to provoke the response that they did, not to assist the Palestinians.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 31 May 10 - 09:27 AM

Atrocity is a bit strong isn't it? If they'd blown the ships out of the water, or bombed a mosque, that would be an atrocity. This looks like the heavy-handed sort of escalation that happens in a war, a tragedy but not an atrocity. Still, we need to hear more acounts yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Arnie
Date: 31 May 10 - 09:46 AM

It's significant that the Turks got involved in this convoy to help the people of Gaza. In fact the mother ship was the Mavi Marmara (Blue Marmaris) flying a Turkish flag. Turkey has always had a secular constitution but is now run by an Islamic government who sympathize with the Palestinians in Gaza. So far the Turkish army has successfully protected Turkey's secularism (using the occasional military coup) but the present Islamic government is forever pushing the boundaries. Turkey also has the largest land army in Nato and plenty of modern armaments. The Turks are today burning Israeli flags in the streets. I studied in Turkey many years ago and can attest that they are not the sort of people you want to annoy.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bankley
Date: 31 May 10 - 10:03 AM

Canada has a free trade deal with Israel... the anti-defamation league(B'nai Brith) pressured the Feds. to deny entry to George Galloway last year... but another George (W. Bush) was allowed in twice. (My friend is facing a sentencing on June 07 for trying to arrest the former President in Calgary for war crimes.)

I personally boycott anything coming out of the Blue Star State, whether it's from the occupied territories or otherwise...and remain outspoken through my art... 'some are born to the music, some are born to the gun'
My sympathies are with the victims of this latest tragedy and their families... remember Rachel Corrie


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 May 10 - 10:09 AM

"Canada as Israel's strongest supporter"

As a side-matter the Israeli president is in fact over there right now having tea & biccies with the Canadian president. Then he's popping over for a natter with Obama tomorrow.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 May 10 - 10:11 AM

Oops, now he's not..


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 31 May 10 - 10:46 AM

"Atrocity is a bit strong isn't it?"

What is the cut off limit that distingishes a mass murder from an atrocity?

25 dead? 30? 100?

It was a flotilla of Aid agencies bringing humanitarian aid to people who need it.

It was in international waters.

It was no threat to Israeli National security.

There is no moral, legal or military argument to support these actions.



"if it happened as reported by one side and not the other"

The information about the numbers of dead is corroborated by Israeli news sources.

There has been no information from those in the flotilla since the Israeli Navy blacked out all communications.

Why did they do this?

We await the testimony of those on board.

I will be paying careful attention to the testimony of the Irish members of parliament who were on board.



"The actions of the convoy's leaders were intended solely to provoke the response that they did, not to assist the Palestinians."



This is your opinion. It is uncorroborated.

Regardless of which it is a poor excuse for the murder of 20 Aid agency workers.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 31 May 10 - 10:55 AM

"Sometimes we have to look into our own back yards before we start pointing fingers at our neighbours down the street. "


Yes I agree.

The British and American Government, our governments, are sitting in our back yard giiving tacit support to a campaign of repression and violence in Gaza, a place described by Gerald Kaufman (a friend of Golda Meyer and Tsipi Livni) as being comparable to the Warsaw Ghetto.


"The Israelis said that the aid on that convoy would be delivered if landed at a regular port."


What about the medical and dental surgeries on board the ships designed to give Gazan's access to a doctor or dentist?

How exactly were they meant to deliver these things without the ships going too?

And how about the Aid workers?


The majority of Aid to Gaza has been smuggled in. The UN and all the main Aid agencies all contradict the Israeli claim that they are allowing enough aid in.

In fact they all support a view that Israel is starving Gazans of the things they need to survive.



"and I have no interest in discussing the legality of the war or Israel's existence for the umpteen zillionith time"


Well you are the only person to bring these issues into the discussion, so if you could try and stick to the point that would be appreciated.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 May 10 - 11:14 AM

Proclaiming that you're friends with the neighborhood bully and not working to stop the bad behavior is nothing to brag about. Frankly, this "friend" needs a good Three Stooges-style dope slap.

Israel as a nation has taken on some of the characteristics of the countries that abused Jews in WWII. That is clear. Their treatment of the Palestinians, and such prolonged time they spend in camps - generations! It is appalling. This American says Israel has none of my support as long as they continue to stir up their neighbors in the Middle East. If they settled on the land allotted and were good neighbors, I think things now would be a lot different now.

New York Times stories are a lot more durable than anything via Yahoo news (the first link).


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 May 10 - 11:16 AM

"There is no moral, legal or military argument to support these actions."

I guess the Israeli president disagrees with you as he's given the attack his "full backing".

In regard how this event may play out world-wide, it's interesting to watch the various immediate responses from different nations. The US response in particular is telling (particularly in light of the scheduled meeting tomorrow I thought) as it was the most mildly worded I've read thus far, expressing "regret" for a "tragedy" rather than condemnation of an attack.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 31 May 10 - 11:18 AM

Gerald Kaufman


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 May 10 - 11:22 AM

EDIT: "it's interesting to watch the various immediate OFFICIAL responses from different nations."


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stu
Date: 31 May 10 - 01:15 PM

More dead people. Soon more . . . and more . . . and more . . . and more . . . and more. . . and more (repeat ad infinitum).

I guess humans have an unquenchable desire for blood and gore, as well as an unnerving ability to inflict upon and ignore the suffering of other living beings. Shame really, so much potential as a race too.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 May 10 - 01:27 PM

    No Guest Posts Will Be Allowed On This Thread.

    If you'd like to post, be sure you are logged in as a member.
    Thank you.
    -Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 May 10 - 01:29 PM

Israel will never allow a free Palestinian state.
As long as Israel keeps their boot on the Middle East, there will never be peace in the region.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Bill D
Date: 31 May 10 - 01:32 PM

"...but, Daddy...HE started it!"

There's plenty of blame, provocation and guilt to go around.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 May 10 - 01:38 PM

Actually, WHO started it isn't generally irrelevant in wars. I mean if the second world war went on long enough, detractors could have used precisely the same bland dismissive platitude regards the responsibility of the Germans for 'starting it'.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 31 May 10 - 02:03 PM

The lesson: end Israel now. I mean the Jewish state. There's no room in the world for single-interest states, whether Jewish, Aryan, Islamic, Buddhist, Hindu or Pagan.

It was a mistake- it started as an honest mistake born of 19th century romantic nationalism, was made more dishonest by willing to be co-opted by British oil interests in the 30s (because the Mesopotamia pipeline went that way), further by using the cold war as a lever to secure US patronage, and ended up blackmailing the USA who can't even ask politely that they should obey international law.

But the result is that there will probably be another Holocaust- in 5 years, 50 years, 500 years- and next time nobody will be particularly surprised.

As you reap.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Barden of England
Date: 31 May 10 - 02:12 PM

Am I missing a point here? People keep mentioning 'war' but has there been a declaration of war? And if so on whom?
This is an illegal act in international waters and all countries should condemn it as such, otherwise the occupation of vessels off the coast of Somalia may well be seen to be legal. What the Isralei's have done is no better than what Somali pirates have done.
John Barden


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 May 10 - 02:16 PM

Bloody Monday


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 31 May 10 - 02:21 PM

Yes John, I was responding to the dismissive comment by Bill D. But my example wasn't strictly appropriate to this situation..

Otherwise, I agree with Paul Burke making the point about single-interest states.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 31 May 10 - 03:11 PM

A reconciliation process on the South African model- we are talking about a similar situation to the ending of the Boer state- in which both Israel and Palestine are placed under international jurisdiction, all religious privileges in both states de- recognised, illegal settlers given the choice of returning to Israel or becoming full Palestinian citizens without special privileges, a water commission appointed to correct the imbalance in those rights, an arms commission to regulate all clandestine WMDs, an open door to Europe and the USA for all those who can not live with a non- apartheid state.

Just for starters.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 31 May 10 - 04:11 PM

How are we going to get any solution when people think stupidly?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 May 10 - 04:18 PM

If it isn't a declared war, John, it is a defacto war. Same difference. People are dying, injustices are being heaped upon civilians and nations in the area.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic
Date: 31 May 10 - 04:22 PM

Specifically who did what to whom and when is still uncertain as I write this.

Challenging a blockade is itself an act with military pretensions.

There is a significant pall around this whole affair to indicate that it has been stage managed precisely to lend support to such outlandish statements as the title of this thread or the message from Paul Burke, above.

There is a significant irony here. I think the tactic of casting support for the innocent Palestinian civilians against the bloodthirsty Israeli state is getting perceived as just that, and is getting a little old. Let's see how long the manufactured state of world outrage lasts.

Meanwhile, the Palestinians live miserably, Israel's marginalization continues, and a buildup to something more sinister, more outrageous, and considerably more bloodthirsty continues.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 31 May 10 - 04:49 PM

"Challenging a blockade is itself an act with military pretensions."

Its called civil disobedience.

It worked for Ghandi.

It worked for Martin Luther King.

It worked for them because it made very clear who had the moral high ground.


So let me get this straight ... the crack force of elite commandos, armed to the teeth, who abseiled uninvited onto a ship in international waters with the express intentiopn of Hijacking it, were only acting in self defence when they shot at least 40 people, killing 19 of them?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 31 May 10 - 04:50 PM

Video showing Israeli soldiers being greeted as they arrive on board the Turkish ship, Mavi Marmara. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 31 May 10 - 05:00 PM

Israel spokesman reaction to raid on Gaza convoy

http://vodpod.com/watch/3739834-israel-spokesman-reaction-to-raid-on-gaza-convoy


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 31 May 10 - 05:01 PM

Seen it bobad - I've also seen footage that serves as evidence that Israeli covering fire began before the first abseilers landed on the ship.

This despite a white flag being flown.

Regardless of which, this was a civilian ship in international waters being boarded by a force whose sole purpose was to hijack it.

The idea that the civilians on board the ship were the agressors only makes sense if you are high on crack.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 31 May 10 - 05:06 PM

"I've also seen footage that serves as evidence that Israeli covering fire began before the first abseilers landed on the ship."

Oh yes, and that there were wounded passengers.



The Purpose, intent and cargo of the ship were transparent for all to investigate. Thet were completely open and that is why there were so many oservers from the media and from internatonal parliaments on board.

The only secrecy involved was when The Israeli Navy imposed a blackout.

The only unknowns exist After the hijacking.


The Israeli spokesman is Lying.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Royston
Date: 31 May 10 - 05:25 PM

The question "who started it?" is, contrary to some views expressed here, very important indeed.

Could it perhaps have been the European Zionists that invaded Palestine (in a flotilla of boats, ironically) in the late '40s to embark on the first modern terror campaign; assassinations, bombings of the civilian population in hotels and restaurants and market-places?

Yes, it was. So now we know who started it. And we certainly know who is perpetuating it.

North Americans, jeesh. Jews invade Palestine and ghetto-ise the natives. And then in your view, it is the uppity, unreasonable natives that are the cause of all the troubles. Where do you get that idea from? The push west? Mexico? Yes, it all starts to make sense. But of course you're not colonialists at all, that accusation is still reserved for us isn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 31 May 10 - 05:27 PM

The Military was used - thus it is a War Crime. A State of War already exists due to the blockade, anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 May 10 - 05:34 PM

"Well, I'm not condoning the attack..... On the other hand, Israel is at war and Gaza is blockaded"
Israel is not at watr - it has invaded someone elses territory in order to settle on it.
Sorry - you are condoning the attack.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 31 May 10 - 05:51 PM

Someone has deleted a response to one of my potsts; idiotic though it was, it wasn't objectionable in any way. Moderators: this topic is important, inasfar as anything in the forum is. Please allow all reasonably expressed opinions to appear.
Please read the first message in this thread. No guest posts here. --Mod


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim McLean
Date: 31 May 10 - 06:52 PM

I saw/heard someone on BBC tonight saying that the commandos did not have machine guns but PAINT guns!


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 May 10 - 07:15 PM

In any event, it looks like they sure pissed off Turkey.

   "Otherwise, I agree with Paul Burke making the point about single-interest states."

            I agree with Paul and Crow Sister as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Bill D
Date: 31 May 10 - 09:12 PM

"... the dismissive comment by Bill D."

It was not 'dismissive'. It was a short version of 15 paragraphs noting how you can blame EITHER side, depending on your subjective point of view and what your basic premises are and which 'events' you use as your starting point!

"but, Daddy, he started it!" might be true, IF my little brother ate one of MY candies from my table, and not true IF I had taken more than my share from the bag when he wasn't looking. And we could all blame Daddy for not supervising the division.

So...do we blame the UN for agreeing to give Israel that land? Or the Israelis for interpreting the gift too broadly? Or the Muslims in the Middle-East for being unwilling to share?....or the Germans for creating sympathy for the Jews? Or ...or... just the basic old human 'my tribe is more important than your tribe' attitude?

I have watched YEARS of copy & paste 'proof' of who was to blame for both general & specific conflicts in that area. It is as clear as who is to blame in Ireland, the Baltics, Indo-China, or street gangs in Los Angeles.

"We have met the enemy, and it is US!"
                            Pogo Possum

...oh, sorry to have interrupted those of you who know the answers...please carry on...


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 May 10 - 09:16 PM

To those who wish to consider my comments as condoning an attack or defending disproportionate response to provocations...please read for a change.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 12:07 AM

"The Israelis said that the aid on that convoy would be delivered if landed at a regular port."

Is Gaza under blockade, or not? If it is, then the aid would not have been delivered and that's a lie. If it is not, there is no excuse for the raid. Choose your poison.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:38 AM

This is another sad episode in the seemingly never-ending war between Palestinians and Israelis. Both people in my opinion have legitimate grievances and aspirations. In this case the Freedom Flotilla was challenging Israel's right to blockade the coast of Gaza. As mentioned earlier above:

"Challenging a blockade is itself an act with military pretensions."

As I recall such action is exactly what the Israelis did to break the British blockade of Palestine after World War 2, as was dramatized in the novel and film EXODUS.

Looking at the Israelis video, it's certainly apparent that the rappelling Israelis commandos were indeed attacked with metal posts, chairs, and anything else that was readily available. It is not at all clear what action by the Israelis provoked the attack, given that the Israelis confiscated video by others (but some will surface soon, I imagine).

On balance I would assume that the Israelis will lose in this incident more from world public opinion that will the Palestinians and their supporters.

Such words of wisdom!

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 10:09 AM

I am not an expert on the law of the sea, but I suspect that the international protocols that permit aggressive action in support of a blockade only apply to a lawful blockade, and I am doubtful whether this one is so.

If war had been declared then the Geneva convention would apply and many many of the Israeli actions over the years would have ben contrary to that.

I understood Menzies Campbell to say earlier today that probably the law of the vessel was Turkish, so I am unclear that the use of automatic rifles against people armed with chair legs was lawful force. I suspect it was not.

Er - no, I don't think they were painball guns. Why on earth would anyone have been carrying paintball guns, and how would they have killed so many with them?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 10:37 AM

Why on earth would anyone have been carrying paintball guns, and how would they have killed so many with them?

Lead poisoning?

Y'all do realize there is no forseeable end to this? Over time even this will be absorbed into the history of the region. And when it comes to history of the region the faults of many over all these years make it impossible to ever agree on what can, will, or should be done. Nothing will.........

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 10:50 AM

I would not hav e liked toi be the first guy down the rope being greeted by the "peace activists".


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 10:51 AM

Piracy is the correct word for what happened.

Defending oneself against piracy in international waters is never a crime. The killing of those defenders however, is a crime, and one worthy of the severest penalty.

Israel is out of control, and unless the West stops supporting its illegal bullying of its neighbours, there will be a catastrophic meltdown in the region.

This is not a case of Jews against Muslims, and it should be made clear that this is so.

Two states are involved, Israel and Palestine, and trying to pretend that it is a religious conflict obscures the real issue.

Israel must be made to understand that it can no longer rely on the "Victims of the Holocaust" excuse for its current behaviour.

The Holocaust killed six million Jews, who were German, French, Polish, Hungarian, Czechoslovakian, Romanian, Russian, and on and on and on.

To try to pretend that they are all children of a single nation is nonsense. They share a single religion, and for that they were persecuted. That does not confer upon them the right to occupy an ever increasing portion of somebody else's country.

Israel is a State, and there is no other state which would be supported in annexing its neighbours' territory, by the Western nations.

It's time to tell them enough is enough, or we will have a war in the Middle East which will surpass, in ferocity, anything seen hitherto on this planet.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stu
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 11:02 AM

"Y'all do realize there is no forseeable end to this?'

Too true Spaw.

As a race it seems we won't be happy until we're all neck deep in the blood, piss, shit and gore of the millions of innocents who die every year as a consequence of some asinine philosophic, religious, nationalistic or economic action perpetrated by those without the wit or insight to even understand their or any else's own massive failings; who can't see beyond their own need to own, control and dominate. The sad thing is that buy and larger we let the bastards get away with it, scared of what the price we might have to pay for any real progress.

As for the UN - a talking shop for those poultroons, lickspittles and feckless tosspots who have to huddle together and reassure themselves they are 'doing the right thing' despite knowing they're not but being too afraid to let it all go for fear of what they'd lose. It's a commercial outlet these days, bereft of moral authority as those whom would say they serve/rule/occupy/oppress* us strike secret or unreported deals in back rooms in their ivory tower of glass and hipocrisy in NYC and then head downtown for a cocktail and a blowjob. They might as well, apparently they can't or won't enforce their resolutions unless it seems some sort of commercial interest is served; ask the Tibetans, an even more abandoned people than the Palestinians.

Fuck them all.

*Delete where applicable according to your countries type of government


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 12:54 PM

Piracy, as noted above, is the proper word. Those attacked defended themselves with whatever they had, but too bad they didn't have AK-47s.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 01:20 PM

Over time even this will be absorbed into the history of the region.

In the same way as Bloody Sunday and Sharpeville. Looking back, both those episodes significantly changed things. I suspect the same will be true of Bloody Monday.

I assume that there will be far greater support for a boycott of Israeli goods and so forth, analogous to that which contributed to the end of the apartheid regime in South Africa.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 01:21 PM

"Over time even this will be absorbed into the history of the region."

In the same way as Bloody Sunday and Sharpeville. Looking back, both those episodes significantly changed things. I suspect the same will be true of Bloody Monday.

I assume that there will be far greater support for a boycott of Israeli goods and so forth, analogous to that which contributed to the end of the apartheid regime in South Africa.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 01:21 PM

from this article.



"
Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman discussed the incident with counterparts from various countries, among them UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, EU High Representative for Foreign Affairs Catherine Ashton and German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle.

In his discussion with Ban on Tuesday, Lieberman stated that while 500 people were killed in violent incidents around the world in May alone, it was Israel that was being condemned - and for defensive actions.

The two spoke following Tuesday morning's Security Council resolution calling for an impartial investigation of the matter, as well as Ban's request for a "thorough investigation" of the incident.

Lieberman stated that the hypocrisy and double standards taking root in the international community regarding Israel were to be regretted, stressing that Monday's raid was a reflection of the rights of IDF soldiers to defend themselves against attack.

The activists on board the ships, he said, had prepared clubs, metal crowbars and knives in advance of the confrontation - obviously intending to take a strike at Israel's sovereignty. He added that in light of these facts, Tuesday's Security Council resolution was unacceptable.

'Distinguish between terrorists and freedom fighters'

On Monday, Lieberman told Ashton and Westerwelle to adopt an objective approach and make the distinction between "freedom fighters" and terrorist supporters like those who had been aboard the ships.

Lieberman told the two foreign ministers that though Israel had tried to conduct dialogue with the organizers of the flotilla days before the ships neared Israeli territorial waters, such overtures were rejected - as was a request by Israel that the organizers ask Hamas to allow Red Cross visitation for captured IDF soldier Gilad Schalit.

"What happened ... was pre-planned violence, and Israeli does not intend to allow any attack on its sovereignty by groups of terror-supporters and anarchists," read a Foreign Ministry press release.

Livni: It's impossible to directly compare Israel, Hamas

Kadima and opposition leader Tzipi Livni, meanwhile, expressed full confidence Tuesday in the "principles" of Israel's soldiers, which "remain unchanging even when they join the IDF ... and even when they take over a ship and are attacked and beaten almost to death on board."

Livni criticized the world's response to the incident, saying it was impossible to make a direct comparison between Israel and Hamas. "I understand the personal pain that is expressed concerning the incidents that occurred here, but there is not one democracy in the world that can generate a comparison between murderers and those who defend themselves or kill without intending to."

"Israel and Hamas are not two sides of the same equation," she stressed.

Finance Minister Yuval Steinitz said on Tuesday that in seizing the provocative flotilla heading to Gaza, the IDF acted with determination and courage. He added that Israel exercised restraint - sometimes too much restraint.

"Israel is a small country and needs to protect itself and there was no other alternative than to defend ourselves," said Steinitz at a ministry conference in Jerusalem on Tuesday. "It is clear that the real mission of the flotilla was not to transfer humanitarian aid, which could have entered through the border crossings at the Ashdod port. Instead, the real mission was to break the naval siege to Gaza. The water siege is not perfect, but [it is] essential. It is necessary to understand that a breakage of the siege would mean an increase in terrorism and rockets against Israeli citizens. We don't have a choice, if our country needs to protect lives, we must defend ourselves."

Steinitz added that the State of Israel last year transferred 1 millions tons of food and equipment to Gaza.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 01:34 PM

And Israel bombed out their buildings, killed many civilians and disrupted life for Gazans.
Then allows in a little food and medicine.

Gaza 'city' has over 400,000 inhabitants, the largest city in their occupied territory; the strip has 1.5 million.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 01:37 PM

The amount of aid that Isael permits into Gaza is I think about 20% of that recognised to be necessary even to rebuild teh buildings and infrasturucture destroyed by Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 01:45 PM

And the number of missles smuggled into Gaza, instead of food and medicine?

And the amount of aid that Egypt allows in? Please compare what THEY allow as oppoed to the Israelis- then tell me why there are NO comments about the "evil Egyptians"


Lets go back to the LAST borders that the Arabs nations agreed to- the 1923 partion ( By the UK, as part of the peace treaty ending WW I and creating Trukey, Iraq, Iran, Lebenon...) of Mandate Palestine into Arab ( Transjordan, 77% of the Mandate) and Jewish ( the remaing 23%) Homelands. Care to have everyone go back to that?????


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 01:45 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade

another discussion of blockade


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 01:46 PM

Israel made a big mistake. But the pacifists weren't pacifists, they were political activists supporting one side (Hamas Palestine and the whole world of radical islamism) that won't make any agreement with the other (Israel). Bloody Sunday and Sharpeville are not good examples, because at last they gave way to a solution good for every people. There's no solution but the destruction of Israel in the aim of Hamas and its supporters. Israel made a big mistake, but it is difficult to deal with a counterpart that denies your right to exist.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 01:47 PM

It's time for the World Community to disinvest in Israel. The Netanyahu Government have become the new Nazis. How ironic.

AIPAC should hang its head in shame.

Jews don't have to be Zionists. Many Jews worldwide reject the Theocracy that has become the State of Israel.

It's a long way away from what Ben Gurion had in mind.

The new Exodus must be out of Gaza.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 01:57 PM

For an Israeli perspective on blockade, which does not seem to conform entirely to the contents of my previous links, see

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Law/Legal+Issues+and+Rulings/Gaza_flotilla_maritime_blockade_Gaza-Legal_background_31-May-2


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 02:06 PM

The Mandate called for for the rights of non-jews to be respected.

Ben Gurion (1937) wrote that he was in favour of partition because he didn't envision a partial Jewish state as the end of the process. "What we want is not that the country be united and whole but that it be united and the whole country be Jewish (bold face mine).
He explained that a first-class Jewish army would permit zionists to settle in the rest of the country with or without the consent of the Arabs ("Letters....", 1971, Univ. Pittsburgh Press).

(From Wikipedia and Encyc. britannica)

The policy envisioned by Ben Gurion is being pursued. Destruction of Palestinian Arab homeland and domination of the Palestinian Arabs as a slave population is still the Israeli objective.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 02:19 PM

Q,

"The Mandate called for for the rights of non-jews to be respected."

The mandate did NOT allow for the creation of Jordan ( Transjordan) as the ARAB Homeland, with NO Jews being allowed to settle in that 77% of the Mandate area.

The remainder of the Mandate ( 23%, the Jewish Homeland) had NO restrictions on who settled there.

I guess you mean that ONLY the rights of Non-Jews were to be respected.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 02:22 PM

"Destruction of Palestinian Arab homeland and domination of the Palestinian Arabs as a slave population is still the Israeli objective. "


False statement.

Israel has NEVER threatened the existance of Jordan.

Israel has never used Palestinian Arabs as slves- that has been reserved for thier Arab brothers in Saudia Arabia, Kuwait, and other Arab nations, where they could live and work but never become citizens.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 02:24 PM

BTW, transjordan was given to the Arabs in 1923- a few years BEFORE 1937....


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 02:40 PM

In the formation of Israel, 80% of the Arabs were ethnically cleansed from the land by Israeli zionists and not allowed to return.

The refugee camps became the homes of the Palestinian Arabs and have been for many years.

Stateless people forced to live on charity, without hope, are slaves.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 02:49 PM

"""I have watched YEARS of copy & paste 'proof' of who was to blame for both general & specific conflicts in that area. It is as clear as who is to blame in Ireland, the Baltics, Indo-China, or street gangs in Los Angeles."""

...and here we go again!


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 02:55 PM

Q,

'In the formation of Israel, 80% of the Arabs were ethnically cleansed from the land by Israeli zionists and not allowed to return.'

1. they were invited to stay by the Israeli governement, and choose t leave based on promises by the Arab League that they could have it all after the Jews were driven out.

2. Nearly 100% of the Jews in Arab nations were "ethnically cleansed" , and resettled ONLY by Israel. 820,000 Jews vs the 640,000 Palestinian Arabs that fled.





"The refugee camps became the homes of the Palestinian Arabs and have been for many years."

From 1948 to 1967, the entire West Bank and Jeruselam were under Arab ( Jordanian) control. Please tell me who put the Palestinians into camps instead of letting them settle?





"Stateless people forced to live on charity, without hope, are slaves. "

So why didn't the other Arab nations allow them to settle, as the Israelis allowed Jewish refugees from the world over to do? They are the ones keeping the Palestinians as slaves.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 02:56 PM

"80% of the Arabs were ethnically cleansed "

And this figure is false.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 03:02 PM

""The refugee camps became the homes of the Palestinian Arabs and have been for many years."

From 1948 to 1967, the entire West Bank and Jeruselam were under Arab ( Jordanian) control. Please tell me who put the Palestinians into camps instead of letting them settle?

"



BTW, where did all the Jews that were in the areas controlled by Arabs go to between 1948 and 1967???

Care to enlighten me as you claim the Israelis should lie down and let the Palestinians cut their throats?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 03:07 PM

On 24th May in the Humanitarian Voyage thread, which received little attention, I posted a link to a Q & A article in the Gulf News which appears to be fairly prophetic

"Will Israel allow the vessels to enter?

Israel controls Gaza's territorial waters, and has warned campaigners not to attempt to break the blockade, saying it will use "any means necessary" to stop the flotilla.

Israel has, in the past, stopped the flotilla by ramming it with gunboats, towing it to its own ports as well as taking in passengers from international waters and detaining them.

The Israeli navy has reportedly been conducting practice exercises in order to block the Freedom Flotilla.
Organisers have said they are undeterred and are determined to continue.
The presence of high profile personalities on the ships gives the campaigners leverage over Israel, but the state has not hesitated to imprison prominent people in the past, including former congresswoman and US presidential candidate Cynthia McKinney.

Some of the vessels will be flying the Turkish flag. If such a vessel is attacked in international waters, a major diplomatic incident could follow"

thread.cfm?threadid=129679#2913025

In this thread I also referred to Gisha

"an Israeli not-for-profit organization, founded in 2005, whose goal is to protect the freedom of movement of Palestinians, especially Gaza residents. Gisha promotes rights guaranteed by international and Israeli law.

Gisha is operated by a professional staff and guided by a board that includes legal academics and practitioners, women and men, Arabs and Jews, who have helped shape Israeli human rights law through their advocacy and writings.

Gisha is registered in Israel as an independent, non-partisan, not-for-profit organization. Gisha is generously supported by donations from Israel and abroad."

Please remember that not all Jewish people support the Zionist movement or the settlements which are considered a "violation of international law" and approximately 100 of which do not even meet the legal criteria of Israeli law but represent a fundamentalist imperitive
Recognition of the second class status of the Palestinians in Isreal or the humanitarian crisis in Gaza is not anti-semitism!


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Royston
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 03:11 PM

You're right, Bill D

Simple fact is that something must be done to stop Israel from perpetuating this cycle of death. They *are* the new Nazis. They have squeezed the Palestinians into a ghetto where they suffer death by a thousand cuts - something that creates new generations of human beings who are dehumanised and have nothing to lose when they blow their own bodies up in order to hit back at their persecutors in some (futile) way.

For gawd's sake, if we (Britain) had behaved towards the USA-funded Irish terrorists as Israel deals with Hamas, where would that have go us all?

Like South African apartheid, we need boycotts and sanctions. We need to make Israel feel what most right thinking people feel - that it is a callous, bloodthirsy pariah state, evert bit as vile and bankrupt as North Korea or Iran or the Taleban. We need to take away its military - and certainly its nuclear - capabilities and send in an UN force to roll back its borders to UN-agreed positions and maintain a peace for as long as it takes for the groundswell of emotional support for Hamas to disappear.

And of course Hamas must be disarmed and policed. But that is easy. Be tough on Israeli human rights abuses is to be tough on the causes of Hamas. Enforce some basic fairness and Hamas will wither away.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 03:39 PM

The United States has blocked demands for an international inquiry into al Qaeda's attack on the World Trade Center that left almost three thousand people dead.

A compromise statement instead calls for an impartial investigation which Washington indicated could be carried out by al Qaeda.


Self regulation, that's the way to do it.



















Oops, I misread the report.










The United States has blocked demands at the UN security council for an international inquiry into Israel's assault on the Turkish ship carrying aid to Gaza that left nine pro-Palestinian activists dead.

A compromise statement instead calls for an impartial investigation which Washington indicated could be carried out by Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 03:42 PM

BTW Royston, much as I dislike Hamas and Islamic fundamentalism (and much as most Palestinians dislike fundamentalism too), don't forget that the Israeli blockade was a response to the DEMOCRATIC election of Hamas, in a process that was agreed by international observers to be free and fair.

The West can't preach democracy, but only accept the result if it's the "right" one.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 03:50 PM

I should point out that I understand the laws of blockade require blockaded ships from non-belligerents to be escorted to a neutral port


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 04:27 PM

Maritime Law

Israelis opened fire before boarding the flotilla (the live feed video evidence supports this testimony)


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 04:34 PM

The statement I hear is that the Israelis spent 6 hours telling the ships to stop and be escorted into port for inspection BEFORE they put people aboard them.

"I should point out that I understand the laws of blockade require blockaded ships from non-belligerents to be escorted to a neutral port "

Had the ships left the blockaded area and returned to a neutral port, they would not have been boarded. Si Israel is in accord with the laws of blockade.


I note the UN condemned the actionsof Israel immediately ( within hours) yet is NOW calling for a complete report and investigation.

Didn't the Red Queen act that way, demanding the verdict and execution first and THEN the trial????


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 04:36 PM

It doesn't matter what the Israelis told people to do. Under international law, they had no right to tell anyone to do anything at all in international waters.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 04:43 PM

"Had the ships left the blockaded area and returned to a neutral port, they would not have been boarded. Si Israel is in accord with the laws of blockade."

Whether you believe the sea blokade of Gaza is legitimate or not, and this is very debatable, the fact remains that it applied to the waters within 20 miles of Gaza and NOT to international waters which is where the flotilla came under attack.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 04:57 PM

It should also be understood that under international maritime law, the Turkish ship is legally considered to be Turkish territory. Turkey is a member of NATO. Israel is not. Turkey could, if it wanted to, consider the attack on its territory in international waters an act of war, subject to Article V of NATO, which obligates the other NATO members to come to its assistance when attacked by a non-NATO country.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:11 PM

Israel's Sharpville - no less.
And they crouch behind the dead of Auschwitz to excuse such actions.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:22 PM

Meanwhile, the Rachel Corrie is now on its way to Gaza, and a new humanitarian aid flotilla is being gotten ready to make another attempt to break the blockade.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:24 PM

"Didn't the Red Queen act that way, demanding the verdict and execution first and THEN the trial????"

Execution?

How many Israelis were executed?

None?

How many civilians were executed by the Israelis?

19?


That number is higher than the number of Israelis who died in the alleged "war" of january 2009.


Bruce, I think your choice of words and indeed analogy could have been better.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:30 PM

"Meanwhile, the Rachel Corrie is now on its way to Gaza, and a new humanitarian aid flotilla is being gotten ready to make another attempt to break the blockade."

And I pray that the Turkish Government and all other Governments, including the Israeli government, stay the hell out of it.

Israel can withstand any military assault - in fact any such offensive makes them stronger.

However they are powerless in the face of a transparent humanitarian campaign, and can have no answer to civil disobedience.

The key for Gaza is No-Violent Non-Cooperation.

Rachel Corrie may yet do some bulldozing of her own and help bring down the wall from beyond the grave.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM

If a blockade were imposed on Israel that would have the same legal status as the blockade by Israel on the Gaza strip.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM

Lox

The number is presently reported as 10 dead.

Too many, as all agree- but the determination of who attacked who is still to be determined. There was resistance only on one ship- and the video shows the passengers attacking the commandos as they came aboard.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:35 PM

The live feed shows people being attacked and it shows wounded members of the flotilla prior to any of the Israelis landing. The Israeli government video only shows what happened after they landed. The live feed shows what happened before they landed. This is indisputable proof that the Israelis opened fire before landing.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:37 PM

"The number is presently reported as 10 dead."

Depends on the report.

Doctors working on the scene have suggested as many as 15 died.

Early reports from ISRAELI media sources suggested 19.


"There was resistance only on one ship- and the video shows the passengers attacking the commandos as they came aboard."


The cameras can't see the bullets.

There is testimony that there were bullets flying before the troops landed.

Bear in mind that the Israelis imposed a blackout when they attacked, up until which pointthe flotilla had been entirely transparent in every respect.

The only secrecy has been that imposed by the Israeli military.

The Israelis can't imprison everyone who was on the ship.

So far they control all the information.

This will not last.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:39 PM

Having said that, however, under international maritime law, the people on the flotilla ships had an absolute right to defend themselves against the Israeli invasion of their ships and their attempt to take them over. The act of boarding the ships without permission was in itself an act of aggression that is illegal under international maritime law.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:42 PM

When I reflect on the Turkey, (Turks, Kurds and Armenians), I cannot put events of 1915 the G-word out of my mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:49 PM

Gee, who attacked whom? Did the blockade runners board the Israeli ships, or did the Israelis board the blockade runners' ships? There's your answer.

You're wrong, Spaw, there is a forseeable end to this, which Israel has been steadily working toward for 60 years. Chomp off larger and larger chunks of the West Bank until there's nowhere for the Palestinians to live and no way for them to make a living. They all go somewhere else. Then start doing the same for Gaza (if anybody is still alive there after the starvation blockade). Problem solved.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:50 PM

Have to agree, Ed T, the Turks should have kept the hell out of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 05:52 PM

As this certainly was not the first naval blockade of a nation, a good question is does international law permitted capturing a vessel attempting to breach a naval blockade, even in international waters? The answer may be surprising.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:00 PM

Was/is the blockade legal?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:05 PM

I would say that nobody from the US or the UK is in any position to say that international law and international agreements like NATO shouldn't apply to countries that have genocides in their previous history, considering the histories of those two countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:08 PM

I'd say that's irrelevant. No nation has clean hands; that doesn't make what Israel is doing okay. The whole "you're in no position to talk" thing just gives Israel carte blanche to undertake any atrocities it cares to. But then again the support of the US does much the same thing. As witness the last 50 years.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:09 PM

"nobody from the US or the UK is in any position to say that international law and international agreements like NATO shouldn't apply to countries that have genocides in their previous history, considering the histories of those two countries".

And, to the contrary, many NATO and western nations have had direct experience in invading and blockading other countries, and killing those opposing such adventures.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:09 PM

The blockade is illegal under the Geneva conventions because it is a form of collective punishment.

There is also the problem of the legal status of Gaza. If it is under occupation by the government of Israel, it is an illegal occupation. If it is a part of Israel, it is illegal because it is illegal to take territory by force. If it is not under occupation, then Israel has no right to control its borders.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:12 PM

So you guys are saying that maritime law only applies to those whom the people with the most guns say it does. Interesting. You may be right. Of course, that is the "might makes right" ideology, and in that respect is no different from any other regime that practices it, including the ones we don't like.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:14 PM

Nobody has yet answered my question: is there a blockade, or isn't there? If there is, it's nonsense to say Israel will pass through anything anybody wishes to send into Gaza. Well, actually it's not so much nonsense as a lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:18 PM

You asked if it was legal. I answered that one.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:30 PM

In most cases the big guns make the international rules, and bend them to suite their interests. History is full of blockades, belligerent, Pacific and otherwise. Some have caused war, some reduced the liklihood of war, and many, like this one, have been punitive actions by a larger (more powerful) nation against a smaller, less powerful one...designed to make it give in to the larger nations interests.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:34 PM

I can't argue with that, Ed, in practice. But it's still might makes right, which makes those who practice it no better than Nazis.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:34 PM

As to whether it is legal, I don't feel it has in fact been answered. It was clearly was a naval blockde, regardless of what you call it.   But, remember the USA called their naval blockade of Cuba a quarantine, to avoid United Nations criticism.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:38 PM

Palestine isn't a nation. It's a territory completely subjugated by Israel. It is, in effect, a ghetto where all the Undesirables are contained as if in quarantine (great word, Ed). Israel pretends it's not part of Israel because if it were they'd have to extend the rights of citizens to its inhabitants. But it's not a state itself, and not part of any other state, and completely under the rule of Israel. What other country could it be?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:39 PM

I believe it's been answered by the United Nations, Ed.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:41 PM

The point is that no matter what status one applies to it, the blockade is illegal under the Geneva Conventions and other international law, as is Israel's control of Gaza.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:42 PM

I should rephrase that:

The point is that no matter what status one applies to Gaza, the blockade is illegal under the Geneva Conventions and other international law, as is Israel's control of Gaza.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:42 PM

Israel claims that Turkish-based IHH, responsible for the flotilla funds and finances Hamas initiatives(I believe that is listed in some countries as a terriorist group) around the world.

They cite sources, including this report:

http://www.diis.dk/graphics/Publications/WP2006/DIIS%20WP%202006-7.web.pdf


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:44 PM

"I believe it's been answered by the United Nations, Ed."

Specifics


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:44 PM

The existance of a blockade is a simple fact

however....

"Israel has never published a list of banned items, saying it approves requests on a case-by-case basis.

Items allowed have changed over time, which has left humanitarian organisations and commercial importers constantly attempting to guess what will be approved.
The court case has been brought by the Israeli human rights group, Gisha.
The group has been trying, for more than a year, using freedom of information legislation, to squeeze information from the state about what exactly is allowed for import to Gaza, and why.

In January, Gisha, took the Israeli authorities to court, to try to force them to provide the information.
Gisha's director, Sari Bashi, says she is no security expert, "but preventing children from receiving toys, preventing manufacturers from getting raw materials - I don't see how that's responsive to Israeli security needs."

And she says that some of the prohibitions appear to be absurdly arbitrary: "I certainly don't understand why cinnamon is permitted, but coriander is forbidden. Is there something more dangerous about coriander?
Is coriander more critical to Gaza's economy than cinnamon? This is a policy that appears to make no sense."
She argues that if there is a logic behind such decisions, the military should reveal what it is


GOODS ALLOWED INTO GAZA - beginning of May
Canned meat and tuna, but not canned fruit
Mineral water, but not fruit juice
Sesame paste (tahini) but not jam
Tea and coffee but not chocolate

The lack of clarity causes immense frustration not just among Gazans, but among aid groups, diplomats, and the United Nations - which has described Israel's blockade as "collective punishment"

The problem, they say, is not just the shortages themselves, but the unpredictability and changing nature of what is permitted for import.
Israeli officials have said, in the past, that they are concerned that building materials in particular could be misappropriated by Hamas for military ends.

But some Israeli commentators - even those who advocate a tough stance against Hamas - say that the strategy behind the much wider blockade is ill-defined, and harmful to Israel's international standing.

The BBC has received information from reliable sources that there are currently 81 items that are approved for import - from kidney beans to tinned meat - and as of March, shoes.

Among the large range of goods currently forbidden are jam, chocolate, wood for furniture, fruit juice, textiles, and plastic toys.

A 13-page submission by the Israeli authorities to the Tel Aviv District Court raises more question s than it answers.

It does set the context for the blockade: in what Israel considers to be its existential conflict with Hamas.
But it will not satisfy those calling for Israel to be more open about one of its most contentious policies."

From a BBC report May 3rd


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:44 PM

No, that wasn't to you Carol C. I want to know if somebody who supports Israel in this, really thinks they would pass everything through they got when they're not doing so now, and they claim there's a blockade on.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:48 PM

So then Israel should have no problem with the Rachel Corrie, then, since it is not IHH.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:49 PM

My last was for Ed.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:51 PM

The list may be puzzling to us....but I am also puzzled by many government lists, and especially when it comes to security and terror-fear, even when I take an airplane.

I don't see why cinnamon or coriander is on a list is a humanitarian issue? Governments like to make lists, governments are bureaucratic and often don't make sense...even ours.

If one knows that there is a blockade, and one is entering an area of conflict...it seems wise, yes, even common sense, to pay heed and not do anything that would spook those with guns.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:52 PM

Resolution 242, Ed.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:54 PM

The flotilla, not Rachel Corrie.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 06:56 PM

The Rachel Corrie is a part of the flotilla. It is on its way to Gaza now. It is from Ireland and is not a part of IHH.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:00 PM

Resolution 242, 1967. I suspect the question related to the current situation and blockade....


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:04 PM

242 never stopped applying to Gaza as well as the West Bank, Ed. It still applies today.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:05 PM

I know your post is going to be deleted, GUEST, but you should never say "the Jews" in the way you just did. There are many, many Jews who are working very hard and making enormous sacrifices to help correct this situation, and they deserve our gratitude and respect.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:08 PM

The Irish-flagged MV Rachel Corrie cargo ship was referred to in the earlier thread 'Humanitarian Voyage'); her passage to join the Freedom Flotilla was most likely delayed because of sabotage by Israelis, but she is now heading for Gaza on her own

The humanitarian aid attempt has the full support of the Irish government.

The Irish prime minister, Brian Cowen, has warned Israel that it will face "the most serious consequences" in the event that any harm comes to Irish citizens on board the humanitarian relief vessel.

Mr Cowen said Ireland's longstanding position was that the Israeli blockade of Gaza was "immoral and counterproductive" and should be ended.

"Israel must listen and respond to the clear concerns of the international community on this issue. To do otherwise will only serve to reinforce the position of the extremists on both sides and jeopardise the hope of achieving some urgently needed political progress in the region, which the current proximity talks represent," he said.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:08 PM

Yeah, there's no way I'm going to allow an anonymous guest to post racist or anti-Semitic crap. And on this thread, no guest posts are allowed at all.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:13 PM

"The Gaza Strip has been under a heightened Israeli blockade since the militant group Hamas seized control in June 2007.In September 2007, the Israeli government declared the Strip a "hostile entity" in response to continued rocket attacks on southern Israel. During the six month truce between Israel and Hamas, which began in June 2008, and in early 2010, the volume and range of goods increased with trucks of shoes and clothes entering Gaza." and said it would start cutting fuel imports


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:16 PM

I'd say that GUEST Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:01 PM is pretty certainly a phony trying to bolster the lie that critics of Israel are anti-semites. And the sooner the post gets deleted the better.

Good to see that this has forced the Egyptians to stop collaborationg in the Gaza blockade, and to open the crossing into Gaza that they control.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:17 PM

Ed - please read about the recent 'imports of shoes and clothes' on the previous thread
Clothes and shoes have been on the banned list for 3 years; many of those now allowed in have been held in 'storage' by the Israelis for the whole three years and it is estimated as much as 50% has actually deteriorated beyond use.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:24 PM

Irish aid boat holds course towards Gaza despite Israel warning:

The final boat in the Gaza aid flotilla was sailing at full speed towards the territory's coast tonight despite warnings that it would be intercepted by Israeli forces.

The MV Rachel Corrie, a 40-year-old cargo ship bought by the Irish arm of the Free Gaza Movement, was delayed and avoided capture during Monday night's assault. Tonight it was still in international waters about two days from Gaza, carrying a consignment of aid and 19 activists and crew, among them five Irish nationals, the organisation said.

The Irish taoiseach, Brian Cowen, warned Israel tonight that he expected no violence against those on the Rachel Corrie.

"If any harm comes to any of our citizens it will have the most serious consequences," he said, calling on Israel to guarantee the vessel safe passage through the military blockade of Gaza.

The ship, named after the 23-year-old American killed in Gaza in 2003 while trying to prevent an Israeli bulldozer demolishing a Palestinian home, had halted in the Mediterranean following the assault while those on board – among them the Nobel peace laureate Máiread Maguire and Denis Halliday, a retired senior UN diplomat – discussed whether they should continue.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:25 PM

"50% has actually deteriorated beyond use."

Which implies that some of the rest may have deteriorated, but not yet beyond use.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:25 PM

242 required that Israel withdraw from any territory that it took in 1967 and to not interfere with the politics or borders of any other state. At the time, Gaza would have been included in that as a part of Egypt.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:28 PM

I don't trust the Egyptian government. I think they've only opened the crossing in order to help the Israeli government try to discredit the Rachel Corrie. I think that if Israel takes the Rachel Corrie, Egypt will close Rafah again very soon afterward.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:30 PM

"242 never stopped applying to Gaza as well as the West Bank, Ed. It still applies today"

Sorry, CarolC...that may make sense to you, but not to me. It is just much more complex than that..involves more than Israel..and, much water, from both sides, has gone under the bridge since 1967.

I certainly do not condone or praise Israel for holding back supplies that are being held back. In fact, I feel they should end the blockade. However, I recognize that this is a very complex topic (from many sides), and all involved have a legitimate reason to fear the other side and their future plight and security.

That being said, let's not fool ourselves by believing that many other nations, some stellar UN members, have not done bad things...even violated or skirted human rights and UN laws,starved and killed others, led blockades and invaded other nations.

Would I take on a nation blockading another because it feels threatened by it (right or wrong)? No. Should I be surprised if these actions (good or less so) presented threats to my safety? No
Should we condemn actions before we know the facts? A good question.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:38 PM

""The activists on board the ships, he said, had prepared clubs, metal crowbars and knives in advance of the confrontation - obviously intending to take a strike at Israel's sovereignty. He added that in light of these facts, Tuesday's Security Council resolution was unacceptable.""

So, Israel now claims sovereignty over international waters and Turkish shipping?

That dog ain't gonna hunt, no matter how they spin it, and iron bars against assault rifles and grenades isn't resistance, it's suicide.

Boarding a foreign owned ship in international waters is PIRACY, and if the crew resist, they are doing their job.

Israel should cease and desist from illegal actions, and concentrate on her own territory.

A little compromise here would be beneficial to all concerned.

You cannot win hearts and minds by slaying ten for one. Even Hitler with vastly greater resources couldn't manage that.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:38 PM

According to the Palestinian Chamber of Commerce in Gaza last September, there were currently over 1,700 containers of imported goods ordered by Gaza merchants being 'stored' in Israel and the West Bank until they are allowed into Gaza.
A breakdown of the items listed by the Chamber of Commerce included clothing, shoes, electronics and toys.

Over half of the containers have been held in storage since 2007. The Chamber of Commerce reports direct losses of an estimated 10 million dollars, including storage and handling costs, and indirect losses in losing contracts and ties with outside suppliers.

On Aug 23 2009, the new school year began for nearly 450,000 school children in Gaza. but notebooks and other items needed for school have not been allowed into Gaza.
Nor has the construction material needed to repair the many schools damaged by Israeli shelling and bombing during Israel's three-week war on Gaza.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:39 PM

...a very complex topic... Yes indeed - after all, if they let tinned fruit into Gaza, people might throw them at Israeli tanks...


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: michaelr
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:41 PM

I keep reading stuff like "Hamas seized control" as if they had taken power in a miltary coup. Fact is, whatever you may think of Hamas, they were democratically elected by the people of Gaza.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:41 PM

Well, Ed, while I would never try to suggest that no other countries have ever done bad things, the problem for me is that I am being made to pay for what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. So that makes me complicit, and gives me the responsibility to do whatever I can to try to correct the situation.

Nevertheless, Israel is in material breach of quite a few international laws, treaties, and UN resolutions, so it has no legal leg to stand on, for any reason, ever.

Now, if Israel should decide to annex Gaza and the West Bank, and extend citizenship and equal rights to all who live there, I would not see any need to keep working on behalf of Palestinian rights. Equally, if Israel would decide to withdraw to its pre-67 borders and leave Gaza and the West Bank alone, I would similarly not see any need to continue my work on behalf of Palestinian rights.

But as things are now, I have no other choice. And I really don't see it as being complicated at all. It's all quite simple, actually.

Anyway, Israel, in the form in which it now exists, will cease to exist sooner rather than later. It is committing suicide even as we speak.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:48 PM

CarolC
Nice to see that you do not see the Israel Palistian issue and history as complex. I suspect you stand with few, not with many on that one.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:54 PM

"I keep reading stuff like "Hamas seized control" as if they had taken power in a miltary coup. Fact is, whatever you may think of Hamas, they were democratically elected by the people of Gaza".

I suspect you fail to include alot of hammas killing (including innocent children...also condemmed by the UN) in the mix of the democratically elected government...(not to mention fatah)


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 07:56 PM

Nice to see that you do not see the Israel Palistian issue and history as comples. I suspect you stand with few, not with many on that one.

I think you're quite wrong about that, Ed.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:01 PM

It IS complex. There are no "good guys" or "bad guys" in this problem, which has been going on for well over sixty years. Both sides are right, and both sides are wrong - and both sides have committed atrocities in the name of what they see as right.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:02 PM

"I think you're quite wrong about that, Ed."
We agree to disagree on that one.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:03 PM

Ed, It is important to be able to distinguish complexity from smokescreen.

I also have an interest in ensuring that the taxes I pay are not used by my government to fund the export of weapons that will then be used against Palestinian families.

That is very clear and simple.

There is currently no fear of my taxes being invested in weapons being used against Israelis.

On the other hand, It is also very clear to me that voluntary contributions made to help feed hungry palestinians and treat sick palestinians and build homes for homeless palestinians and schools and books for palestinian children, merit no cause for sanctions of any sort.

In fact I admire the bravery of such efforts as in this case they combine with the Israeli blockade to create a form of civil disobedience that has even greater moral standing than those practiced by Ghandi and Martin Luter King, as those examples of civil disobedience did not incorporate humanitarian aid.

This campaign is unique and its critics on a losing path.

The only thing that can damage this campaign now would be the interference of a military force such as Turkey.

Thankfully the Rachel Corrie is taking the initiative.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: michaelr
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:09 PM

Two separate issues, Ed. The majority of Palestinians in the Gaza strip voted for Hamas because they did not feel adequately represented by Fatah.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:10 PM

The solution is not complex, Joe. We are only made to think it's complex so Israel will be able to continue its ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians until they are all gone.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:11 PM

World opinion, for what it's worth, seems to be more critical of the Israelis than the Palestinians and their supporters.

The stupidity of the Israeli leadership at this point amazes me. What world do they live in?

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:12 PM

Actually, the majority of Gazans didn't vote for Hamas. A plurality of them did. There were two different Fatah candidates running and the two of them together got more votes than Hamas, but Hamas won because they got the plurality. They are the democratically elected government of all of Palestine.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: michaelr
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:14 PM

Ah, thank you Carol for putting the orthopedic shoes on me.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:26 PM

"World opinion, for what it's worth, seems to be more critical of the Israelis than the Palestinians and their supporters".

I have found this to fluctuate...outside the clearly anti semetic folks (though I am certain they would be surprised that some find them so) and governments.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:29 PM

"I have found this to fluctuate..."

I have - amongst Israelis!


Not all critics of the Israeli government are gentiles and anti-semites.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:30 PM

The Canadian press has listed the names of three Canadians aboard the relief vessel. There may have been more, news of those aboard is slow in coming.
No report so far of injuries to Canadians.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:33 PM

Ed, public sentiment has been steadily shifting in favor of solidarity with the Palestinians for the last eight years or more. And it increases with every act of violence that Israel commits. This last one will prove to be the straw that broke the camel's back.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:33 PM

"During its searches of the Mavi Marmara on Tuesday, the military also discovered a cache of bulletproof vests, night-vision goggles as well as gas masks. On Monday morning, nine international activists were killed during the Navy's takeover of the Mavi Marmara which was trying to break the Israel-imposed sea blockade on the Gaza Strip"


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:36 PM

All of that stuff was planted by the Israelis, beardedbruce. The entire ship, its cargo, and all of the passengers were thoroughly inspected prior to its departure.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:38 PM

Funny how world public opinion at any point is not always much of a factor on how events evolve...or are viewed in the future.

Lets take the USA enrry into Iraq...most folks forget the world negativity at the time.

Look at the IRA killings in Ireland.

How about Russia's many historic invasions etc.

The Germans and Japanese, once dispised, are now viewed as friends around the world.

And there is China....and still there is China.

"History (and world public opinion) has shown that whoever wins the battle(s) or war(s) will be branded "truth". This is the course of human events, has and always will be this way. It doesn't matter who was right and who's cause was just; all that matters is whoever wins the battle is now "right" and the loser was a "terrorist" and enemy."


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:40 PM

By the way, Israel knows it hasn't got a legal leg to stand on. It's releasing all of the people it kidnapped, including those who so bravely defended the ship from the Israeli terrorists, and whom the government of Israel said they were going to prosecute.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:46 PM

"bravely defended the ship from the Israeli terrorists"

CarolC, you seem to clearly see things from one side. I admit, there is comfort in that. I wish I could enjoy such comfort.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:48 PM

It's true, Ed. I see things entirely from the side of human rights and the rule of law. And you're right. There is great comfort in that.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:54 PM

CarolC. I can say with no hesitation that I do admire your confidence that from your vantage point, that you know all the facts...and can conclude all conclusions on this and related matters.
And as someone once said:
"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter."


"Keep your stick on the ice"


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 08:57 PM

"During its searches of the Mavi Marmara on Tuesday, the military also discovered a cache of bulletproof vests, night-vision goggles as well as gas masks."

The whole flotilla has been deliberately transparent and completely open from the start, having invited international observers from numerous international government and media organizations.

The only secrecy in the whole story began when The Israeli Military imposed an information blackout.

These facts do not run consistent with the idea that the Israeli military has somehow exposed some kind of hidden agenda, but rather suggests that they have tried to hide something.

This makes the plausibility of the above quoted claim very doubtful.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 09:03 PM

Ed, there really is no room for quibbling on what constitutes human rights or even the rule of law. And I don't need to know everything myself. There are international bodies that are responsible for knowing those things. All I have to do is look it up.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 09:08 PM

And, then there is another perspective;
http://www.calgaryherald.com/opinion/Flotilla+fiasco+aboard+Mavi+Marmara/3096275/story.html


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 09:14 PM

And yet another perspective:
http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/06/01/gaza-clash-turkish-charitys-terror-links/


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 09:22 PM

The Calgary Herald is a part of Canwest Global, owned by Leonard Asper and his father Izzy; they support Jewish Zionist goals in the Middle East.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 09:22 PM

The first one ignores the fact that the Israelis opened fire before they boarded the ship, which makes the response from the people on the ship an act of self-defense. The second ignores the fact that not all of the boats were IHH, but all of them were attacked and kidnapped. People are entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 09:28 PM

The US Government used to class Nelson Mandela as a terrorist.

The fact that Fox news has supported this claim to be true of the activists on board the ship should be no surprise.



The calgary herald claims to have a video of activists with a gun.

I've seen a lot of videos of the attack now and none of them included a passenger with a gun.

When I see this alleged video I will believe it.


The ones I have seen aupport eyewitness testimony claiming that live fire was used by the IDF before they landed on the ship.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 09:32 PM

The Canadian Association of Journalists and the Quebec Federation of Professional Journalists have denounced actions of Canwest Global (Calgary Herald owner) as "a disturbing pattern of censorship and repression of dissenting views" and called for a parliamentary inquiry.
The Herald reflects Israeli Zionist and extreme right wing views. Nothing it prints on the Middle East situation can be accepted as valid.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 09:59 PM

So if you separate out (and ignore) all those with pre-set (vested) opinions (such as countries, journalists, media outlets and individuals who have strong and committed views one way or the other on Israel, Palestine and palistinian political causes, and add in vested interests like arabs, Iranians, muslims, jews) who do you have left to listen to?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 10:10 PM

Me!


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 10:23 PM

"It IS complex. There are no "good guys" or "bad guys" in this problem, ..,"

They don't listen when I say similar things, Joe....why would they listen when you say it?

You now have BB and Carol C. at it again, this time with help. They will post alternate 'proof' until you close the thread.

Pogo Possum was right....


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Jun 10 - 10:52 PM

Nice personal attack, Bill. I bet it gave you a lot of personal satisfaction posting that.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 03:03 AM

""It IS complex. There are no "good guys" or "bad guys" in this problem, which has been going on for well over sixty years. Both sides are right, and both sides are wrong - and both sides have committed atrocities in the name of what they see as right.""

While that is all undoubtedly correct Joe, it still leaves a nasty taste in the mouth that one side has a twenty first century technology, while the other is barely halfway through the twentieth, and Western governments allow (even encourage) the vastly stronger playground bully to get away with it.

We wouldn't stand for that behaviour from our children.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 03:06 AM

CarolC's contributions are concise, well made and well supported.

Always good to have debate that predictably involves such clarity.

I must confess I don't generally wade through the swathes of "cut & paste" from BB though (from Israel's 'The Jerusalem' on the first page of this thread, though the source was uncited in the body of the post), as I like to be able to trust - as far as is possible - that the reporting is objective.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 03:32 AM

I've also seen footage that serves as evidence that Israeli covering fire began before the first abseilers landed on the ship

Can you direct me to that? I could use it in an argument on another site.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 04:02 AM

http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=59257http%3A%2F%2Fwww.worldbulletin.net%2Fnews_detail.php%3Fid%3D59257

It's the first video below all of the still shots. It was the live feed with the correspondents talking about what was going on as it was happening. On of the English speaking correspondents says there are already wounded people. At that time, there were no Israelis aboard the ship. In a couple of minutes, they report that a helicopter is trying to land, and then you see the helicopter throw out the rope or ladder and Israelis start coming down it.

I was watching all of the live feed as it was happening and I was also posting developments to my facebook page at the same time, so I have a record of the order in which things happened, and that's how I remember it. I've also read an account from someone else who reports it almost exactly as I remember it, and they also say the Israelis opened fire first. Here's some of their account and a link to the whole thing...

http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/ISeekTheTruth?v=app_2347471856

"There, the reports continued, mainly in turkish again but I heard a few in english, and they said that they were waiting around, because they were trying to avoid going into Israeli waters in the night time, since a previous aid ship was intercepted that way in 2009, at night time. They wanted to avoid any showdown at night time, so they backed away and went westward, 90-100 km from the Gaza shores (still in international waters, which protects them from Israeli attack). It was said that the israeli ships turned back. The live feed resumed and you could see people still standing and walking around all tense with their life jackets on.

Around now the live feed was being interrupted every few minutes. It would black out, sometimes the audio would cut off, and then it would return. It was reported that this was Israelis trying to block the sattelite channels from the ships, but every few minutes it would come back. Suddenly, the feed cut off for about 5-10 minutes. I was at the Gaza Tv News page and someone said that 2 people were killed and 30 injured, I didn't believe them.

Suddenly the feed came back, but this time it was from a turkish news channel. It seems as if all other feeds were cut off except for the turkish media passengers. It was some reporters talking live while images of the events in the boat were also happening live. All you could hear was a woman screaming in a different language, and then for a while she was yelling "WE NEED HELP! DON'T ATTACK US! WE ARE UNARMED CIVILIANS! WE NEED HELP! 2 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED!"

After a while of that, it stopped and you could hear Quran being played, and afterward an announcement said "Please stay calm, please take your seats, we have 2 people killed and we don't want any more hurt". You could see people walking back and forth.

Then I saw images of a helicopter flying overhead the boat, and reports said that they were trying to land on the boat.

Then the live feed switched positions and it was now on the deck, you could see ropes let go from above, and soldiers descending one by one, the camera man was reporting that the soliders were opening fire at the civilians, and I actually heard many gunshots over and over. The camera man ducked and another had a shot of a soldier in a confrontation with one passenger, and then I saw soldiers standing on the top of somewhere, no one was around them but I saw one soldier shoot randomly. Then I also saw a group of soldiers standing near the end of a ship wielding guns strutting back and forth before going out of camera view."


Here are some testimonies from flotilla people who have been released and are now talking about it...

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/2010/06/20106193546785656.html


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 04:27 AM

I just got word that the European campaign already has the funds for the next flotilla, which will have more aid in it and more people.

The flotillas are just going to keep getting bigger and more frequent until it will become too cumbersome for Israel to continue the blockade.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 04:55 AM

Buy time for the IDF to succeed at what, exactly? The ethnic cleansing?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 05:22 AM

Ed asks....

"So if you separate out (and ignore) all those with pre-set (vested) opinions (such as countries, journalists, media outlets and individuals who have strong and committed views one way or the other on Israel, Palestine and palistinian political causes, and add in vested interests like arabs, Iranians, muslims, jews) who do you have left to listen to? "

May I suggest that you could do worse than listen to University of Sydney law professor Ben Saul – a man with a history of challenging human rights abuses – writing this week about the attack on the flotilla in International waters..................


"Israel's response to the Gaza flotilla is another unfortunate example of Israel clothing its conduct in the language of international law while flouting it in practice.

Israel claims that paragraph 67(a) of the San Remo Manual on Armed Conflicts at Sea justified the Israeli operation against the flotilla. (The San Remo Manual is an authoritative statement of international law applicable to armed conflicts at sea.)
Paragraph 67(a) only permits attacks on the merchant vessels of neutral countries where they "are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture".

Israel argues that it gave due warnings, which were not heeded.

What Israel conveniently omits to mention is that the San Remo Manual also contains rules governing the lawfulness of the blockade itself, and there can be no authority under international law to enforce a blockade which is unlawful. Paragraph 102 of the Manual prohibits a blockade if "the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade".


The background to that 'proportionality' rule is the experience of past world wars where naval blockades had devastating effects on civilian populations.

There is little question that Israel's blockade of Gaza is disproportionate in legal terms.
The proportionality rule requires an assessment of the military advantage against the harmful effects on civilians. Israel claims that the blockade is necessary to prevent Hamas from mounting indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israeli civilians.

The proportionality principle requires, however, that Israel's security cannot come at any price. A balancing of interests is necessary to ensure that civilians should not pay too dearly for the security needs of others.

Safeguarding the precious lives of innocents and respecting their dignity as fellow humans is the necessary burden that international law imposes on war.

That is why Israel reveals its contempt for international law when, for example in the past, its leaders have pledged to "destroy 100 homes for every rocket fired".

The harmful effects of the blockade on Gazan civilians have included the denial of the basics of life, such as food, fuel and medicine, as well widespread economic collapse.

The UN agency on the ground, the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA), has described a "severe humanitarian crisis" in Gaza in relation to human development, health, education, "the psychological stress" on the population, high unemployment (at 45 per cent) and poverty (with 300,000 people living beneath the poverty line), and the collapse of commerce, industry and agriculture.


Disrupting wildly inaccurate rockets from being fired at relatively underpopulated areas of southern Israel cannot possibly justify the acute disruption of the daily lives and livelihoods of more than one million Gazans. Nor is it lawful to seek to pressure Hamas by instrumentally impoverishing its civilian supporters.

Israel has further argued that it offered the Gaza flotilla an opportunity to deliver aid through the proper Israeli channels.

It is very difficult to regard that offer as sincere given Israel's track record. Israel's practices concerning the transit of goods through Israeli entry points has been arbitrary at best and deliberately obstructive at worst.

The UN notes that everything from crayons to soccer balls to musical instruments has been denied entry into Gaza – hardly rocket components.
Goods sit idle for months or are never delivered at all. In such circumstances, no-one could have any confidence that the goods would ever reach Gaza.

As yet, it is still unknown exactly what happened on board the flotilla vessels boarded by Israeli forces. Even at this early stage, however, some international law matters are fairly clear.

First, absent any intention by the flotilla to attack Israel, or any suspicion of piracy, it was unlawful for Israel to forcibly board foreign merchant vessels in international waters.

Secondly, such action amounted to an unlawful interference in the enforcement jurisdiction of the "flag-States" (countries of registration) of those vessels, such as Turkey.

Thirdly, it violated the fundamental principle of freedom of navigation on the high seas, codified in the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea of 1982.

Fourthly, under international human rights law, the apprehension and detention of those on board the vessels likely amounts to arbitrary, unlawful detention, contrary to article 9 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, since there is lawful basis for detention.

Fifthly, if Israeli forces killed people, they may not only have infringed the human right to life, but they may also have committed serious international crimes. Under article 3 of the Rome Convention for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts against the Safety of Maritime Navigation of 1988, it is an international crime for any person to seize or exercise control over a ship by force, and also a crime to injure or kill any person in the process.

In such cases, any claim of self-defence by Israeli forces is irrelevant. The treaty necessarily adopts a strict approach.

One cannot attack a ship and then claim self-defence if the people on board resist the unlawful use of violence.
Legally speaking, government military forces rappelling onto a ship to illegally capture it are treated no differently than other criminals.
The right of self-defence in such situations rests with the passengers on board: a person is legally entitled to resist one's own unlawful capture, abduction and detention


Israel has become its own worst enemy. It prioritises its own interests with a callous lack of empathy for others. It is simply unable to imagine the suffering it inflicts upon others, and treats harm to Israelis as the only game in town.
Its absolutism of mind and politics has crushing consequences for Palestinians.


Far from ensuring its own security, Israel is unravelling it: no-one should be surprised if Israel has just succeeded in recruiting the next generation of martyrs keen to attack it.

Absolutism, violence, and the evaporation of peace in the region will continue as long as the international community continues to handle Israel with kid gloves."


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 05:53 AM

As to UN law, read the San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea (which this is), 12 June 1994

"A state, in a time of conflict, can impose an embargo, and while it cannot carry out embargo activities in the territorial waters of a third party, it can carry out embargo activities in international waters".

It seems permissible under rule 67(a) to attack neutral vessels on the high seas when the vessels "are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture."

So, it is within the international framework to detain a civilian vessel trying to break an embargo (which was the stated purpose, and it was widely reported) and if in the course of detaining the vessel, force is used against the forces carrying out the detention then that force has every right to act in self defense.

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce


It is submitted that it is just as logical to believe that those on the flotilla were not on a humanaterian mission, but on a mission to break the naval blockade, as the opposite case.


1) An Al-Jazeera report from May 28,(this is available online) shows activists on board before departing for Gaza, chanting Intifada songs aimed at Jews and praising martyrdom. Chants include "Intifada, intifada, intifada! Khaybar, Khaybar, oh Jews! The army of Mohammed will return!" relating to a seventh century massacre of Jews in Khaybar by early Muslims.

2)Israel offered to transfer the supplies on the flotilla to Gaza from Ashdod port through official channels, an offer that was rejected in favor of confrontation on the part of the anti-Israel activists. As flotilla organizer Greta Berlin stated: "this mission is not about delivering humanitarian supplies, it's about breaking Israel's siege."

3)The Marmara is owned and operated by IHH (which Israel and others see as being linked to terriorists, AKA freedom fighters. IHH is also listed as such by the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, a supporter of radical Islamic networks, including Hamas, and at least in the past, even global jihad elements).


It is also reasonable to believe that Iarael, who has a military blockade in place, has a right to board any vessel it believes is on a belligerent mission. Despite claims that those on board were only prepared to resist peacefully, when Israeli military tried to board Marmara, they were resisted and attacked by many onboard, precipitating the resulting actions.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 05:55 AM

"The Canadian Association of Journalists and the Quebec Federation of Professional Journalists have denounced actions of Canwest Global (Calgary Herald owner) as "a disturbing pattern of censorship and repression of dissenting views" and called for a parliamentary inquiry"
Q, please provide sources for that statement.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: theleveller
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 05:56 AM

There can be no doubt now that Israel should be classed as a terrorist state, for what else was this action but an act of the most blatant terrorism? The sinking of a South Korean gunboat by North Korea has been rightly condemned, but attacking civilians bringing aid to an oppressed and beleagured people is far worse. Israel should now become an international pariah - I, for one, will impose my own personal boycott on Israeli goods.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 06:41 AM

"The Canadian Association of Journalists and the Quebec Federation of Professional Journalists have denounced actions of Canwest Global (Calgary Herald owner) as "a disturbing pattern of censorship and repression of dissenting views" and called for a parliamentary inquiry"
Q, please provide sources for that statement.

Answer

The information comes from The American Educational Trust a non-profit foundation incorporated in Washington, D.C., under taxation provision 501(c)4 by retired U.S. foreign service officers.

"AET's founders included Edward Firth Henderson, the AET's first chairman, and a former British Ambassador to Qatar; Andrew Killgore, AET's first president, who was U.S. Ambassador to when he retired from theUnited States Foreign Service in 1980; and Richard Curtiss, AET's first executive director, who was chief inspector of the U.S. Information Agency when he retired from the U.S. Foreign Service in 1980.

AET's Foreign Policy Committee has included former U.S. ambassadors, government officials, and members of the United States Congress, including the late Democratic Senator J. William Fulbright, and Republican Senator Charles Percy, both former chairmen of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and members of its Board of Directors and advisory committees "receive no fees for their services."

The AET runs a website, Remember These Children, which lists all Palestinian and Israeli children killed in the current intifada (since September 29, 2000).
The website follows on from two booklets ("Who Will Save the Children?" and "Remember These Children"), which were published in conjunction with Americans for Middle East Understanding, Jews for Peace in Palestine and Israel (now merged into Jewish Voice for Peace), and Black Voices for Peace.[
- Wiki

In general, AET supports Middle East solutions which it judges to be consistent with the charter of the United Nations, international law, the Geneva Conventions, and "traditional American support for human rights, self-determination, and fair play."

As part of its educational mission, AET publishes the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, a 76-page magazine published 9 times per year in Washington, DC, that focuses on news and analysis from and about the Middle East and U.S. policy in that region. AET also maintains the Washington Report Web site.

"Unapologetically Pro-Israel" CanWest Imposes National Editorials on Local Paper

"When Canadian newspaper columnist Doug Cuthand wrote a column that compared the plight of the Palestinians to that of North American Indians, he knew he might provoke some debate.

"I pointed out that the Palestinians had the equivalent of land claim to Israel: they had been forced off their land and placed into camps—the equivalent of reservations. The parallels are really jarring," said Cuthand, an aboriginal Indian documentary filmmaker who has written about Indian affairs for the Regina Leader Post and the Saskatoon Star-Phoenix for 10 years.

"I didn't think they'd like it but I didn't think they'd pull it," he said.....................


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 06:47 AM

Rent a mob???


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 08:12 AM

Apartheid South Africa was also in some ways a complex problem, with people from different origins trapped in a tragic situation.

But there was no question that the apartheid regime had to be opposed, and had to be swept away.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Royston
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 08:36 AM

I'm getting pretty sick and tired of the same old USA, pro-Israel rhetoric.

IHH - A Turkish humanitarian aid organistion that has been active in just about every warzone and natural disaster in recent years. Particularly active in Haiti, for instance. Yes, they work on Islamic principles, but then the Red Cross or CAFOD work on Christian principles. No problem, is there?

Hamas - A fully democratically elected political party. Democratically elected in elections judged by USA and EU inspectors as fully free and fair. I thought Americans understood the nature and significance of democracy?

From the Guardian website today:

"The Israeli army has all but admitted that the activists did not have guns of their own before the raid. Army spokeswoman Avital Leibovich said two pistols were seized from activists but these had been taken from the troops raiding the boat. She claimed the magazines of both weapons had been emptied before they were seized back.

Speaking to al Jazeera she insisted that the force used by the troops was proportionate. "Any metal bar pointing at someone's head can kill," she said.

Asked to list weapons on board she said there were knives, scissors, night vision binoculars, many metal bars and sharp objects. She claimed they had been prepared in advance and added that throwing soldiers off the boat was not the actions of a humanitarian organisation.


So let us all be clear about who the players are and the truth that the vessel, and its passengers, were unarmed (save for whatever normal everyday objects were to hand (knives, scissors, metal poles etc) when they were attacked in international waters by people that opened fire on them from helicopters without provocation.

What would you Israel-apologists have done? Sat there and waited to be shot?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 08:51 AM

C'mon EdT, you should know by now that this has nothing to do with legality or self defense (nor with the delivery of humanitarian aid for that matter).

The pattern is pretty well established - Israel is provoked until it has no choice but to respond to the provocation thus providing those who hate them with another opportunity to condemn them and call for an end to their state. The response is Pavlovian as evidenced by the majority of posters to this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 08:58 AM

"save for whatever normal everyday objects were to hand (knives, scissors, metal poles etc"

Did anyone shake their head when they saw photo's of the pitiful so-called "weapons cache". 'You're having a laugh' thinks I, six ships with seven hundred volunteers supposedly "armed" with handful of kitchen knives and some building materials, not to mention of course a jar of pebbles! Jesus, the Scouts would be more dangerously tooled up for bob a job week.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 09:29 AM

provoked until it has no choice but to respond to the provocation

Like in "domestic violence" cases...


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 09:35 AM

There is a raft of Israeli propaganda flooding the US national media. The truth remains, Israel attacked an unarmed ship accusing them of representing Al Quaeda. This is an unmitigated lie perpetrated by the Netanyahu government. We will not know the details of this provocation since the Israeli government has put a blackout on how many were killed, what really happened and incarcerated the inhabitants on the Flotilla. In the meantime, Obama has stood by and allowed this atrocity to continue. Yes, killing unarmed civilians on a boat of mercy is an atrocity. This reactive stance by the Israeli government has to be interpreted as another example of the US condoning death squads in South and Central American and now in the Middle East. The only solution to the problem at this point is a complete sanction against Israel, a disinvestment strategy as was employed in South Africa and a boycott of Israeli products.

Obama is in danger of losing the next election. 1. BP   2. Drone attacks on Pakistan
3. Escalated military budget (more than Bush) for two failed aggressions against foreign countries 4. Not addressing the Israeli siege of Gaza and it's military response. 5. Siding with big business corporations on Wall Street to defeat reforms.

Rand Paul is the new dictator that may emerge just as in the thirties in Berlin.

Look for Israel to start WWIII unless the International Community is heeded.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 09:43 AM

"save for whatever normal everyday objects were to hand (knives, scissors, metal poles etc"

Try attacking the local police force, the military, or a riot squad with these objects and see if they react in a loving way. In fact, police forces in most urban centers (such as NY and LA) are as fearful as a knife as a gun. I suggest doubters view the NY police training film called "sharp edged weapons". I guess these objects just happened to be lying around on deck....ya right.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 10:01 AM

"police forces in most urban centers"

The point is, they *weren't* police in an urban city centre. And that they didn't find any real weapons of the sort that might be used to blow up Israeli citizens, like for example rocket launchers or grenades and so-on. In other words they found none of the kinds of materials that might just possibly have leant some degree of credence to their paranoid reasoning behind the attack on the flotilla.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 10:08 AM

"The response is Pavlovian" - well actually no it isn't

Frankly I consider it offensive to suggest that people who are deeply concerned about the humanitarian crisis in Gaza and the conditions reminiscent of apartheid in South Africa are merely the products of some kind of 'conditioning' and personally insulting to my intelligence to form my own opinion about social justice.

Certainly, if one looks at any of the previous threads on this forum whether about the treatment of Isreali Palestinians as second class citizens, the physical, social and emotional effects of an 8 meter tall concrete Apartheid Wall etc it is plain to observe a typical knee jerk reaction where any critic of Zionism, the illegal settlements (many even under Israels own laws) and so on is instantly branded an anti semite.

I would like to know where the Pavlovian reaction referred to at 02 Jun 10 - 08:51 AM is supposed to have been 'learned'

Are these posters all subjected to a daily diet of Hamas newspapers or Palestian supporting news channels?

Is there an equivalent and equal attempt to orchestrate propaganda efforts like that soliciting individuals to become a pro-Israel "media volunteer" designed to flood news websites and forums with pro-Israel arguments and information?

"Dear friends,

We hold the [sic] military supremacy, yet fail the battle over the international media. We need to buy time for the IDF to succeed, and the least we can do is spare some (additional) minutes on the net. The ministry of foreign affairs is putting great efforts in balancing the media, but we all know it's a battle of numbers. The more we post, blog, talkback, vote – the more likely we gain positive sentiment.

I was asked by the ministry of foreign affairs to arrange a network of volunteers, who are willing to contribute to this effort. If you're up to it you will receive a daily messages & media package as well as targets."

from Richard Silverstein's (a contributer to the Independent Jewish Voices essay collection A Time to Speak Out) article guardian.co.uk, Friday 9 January 2009


Well I'm prepared to put MY 'vested interests' on the line here.

I have Jewish ancestry
I cherish the thought that like a daughter of Holocaust survivors I could feel that the 'ultimate Jewish values' of 'compassion tolerance and rescue' formed and guided my principles.

I supposrt the organization ... WINDOWS - CHANNELS FOR COMMUNICATION...çìåðåú

a non-profit, joint organization of Jewish and Palestinian citizens of Israel and Palestinians from the Occupied Palestinian Territories.
Established in 1991, Windows promotes acquaintance, and understanding between both peoples, as well as empowerment of the youth with whom we work, through educational and cultural programs, media and art

My views are my own and I am NOT some kind of reverse hasbaranik with repetition compulsion.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: theleveller
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 10:12 AM

Oh dear, EdT, you're really struggling to find some sort of justification there. I suppose you'd be happy for armed troops to burst into your house and kill your family just because you happened to have a pair of scissors lying around. Don't be such a complete plonker.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 10:31 AM

"The Canadian Association of Journalists and the Quebec Federation of Professional Journalists have denounced actions of Canwest Global (Calgary Herald owner) as "a disturbing pattern of censorship and repression of dissenting views" and called for a parliamentary inquiry"

Of course I meant where and when did these two Canadian organizations say that, not USA folks....(about an organization that owns a lot of stuff, not the newspaper itself). BTW, these two organizations represents and advocates for its journalist members. Their main issues with Canwest Global is that they concentrate ownership and lay off reporters, so they don't like them....as is happening with most world media sources....including in the USA and the UK.


By the way, Canwest has recently been restructured and it's TV and newspaper and online-publishing assets are separately up for sale, if any of you folks have an interest?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 10:36 AM

When a ship is boarded by pirates the crew and passengers have every legal right to use whatever they have to hand to defend themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 10:39 AM

"Oh dear, EdT, you're really struggling to find some sort of justification there. I suppose you'd be happy for armed troops to burst into your house and kill your family just because you happened to have a pair of scissors lying around. Don't be such a complete plonker".

No plonking or struggle, to reach common sense, (I know it is a misnomer) on my part. No, I would not take up a knife or other weapon ( or what could be seen as a weapon) against police nor the military...on or off duty. Mainly because I have seen first hand what can happen and because I do not believe confronting these folks with weapons of any type is ever wise. I call it common sense and a desire for survival. You may call it something else...as I am sure you will:)


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 10:42 AM

"When a ship is boarded by pirates the crew and passengers have every legal right to use whatever they have to hand to defend themselves"

Maybe so, though it seems very stupid to me, as it can lead to your injury or death.

And, there is the disagreement about the legality of this (and other) naval blockade, that I suspect will not be sorted out on mudcat.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 10:59 AM

"My views are my own and I am NOT some kind of reverse hasbaranik with repetition compulsion."

I wasn't aware of the Israeli government initiative to flood the media with pro-Israeli propaganda via the mouths of volunteers. They tell these fake "bloggers" what to say, and even provide them with suitable YouTube clips and everything. It's all pretty 'Eeew'. We know we can't always trust the media for impartiality, but this state orchestrated barrage of propaganda hiding behind a front of fraudulent "bloggers" feels much more cynical and insideous.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 11:01 AM

Activists are just troublemakers - they knew what they were going into.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 11:03 AM

Despite claims that those on board were only prepared to resist peacefully, when Israeli military tried to board Marmara, they were resisted and attacked by many onboard, precipitating the resulting actions.

Except that the Israelis started shooting before anyone had a chance to resist, which makes it a war crime.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 11:19 AM

Ed - answer mark 2
- not totally relevent to the thread but certainly indicates the bias of reporting in a section of the Canadian media and how any report of the attack upon the flotilla might just be not entirely 'objective'

A website devoted to cross-media ownership, convergence & concentration in Canada has published a 'time line' about the formation of CanWest Global and its dispute with journalists at The Montreal Gazette in 2001 onwards

Sept. 1 Montreal Gazette publisher Michael Goldbloom quits, cryptically citing differences with CanWest over the direction the chain is taking

November Peggy Curran, TV critic at The Montreal Gazette, writes a column about a CBC documentary about to be aired. The topic is the treatment of journalists in the occupied territories. Her column is first held, then a rewrite is ordered. Curran complies, the amended column runs, but she then gives up her TV-critic spot and goes on a year's leave of absence.

Dec. 5
CanWest announces national editorials to run in all major dailies except one of the two CanWest owns in Vancouver, BC. A mini-insurrection erupts, leading to newsroom turmoil at the Montreal Gazette and the quashing of a byline protest. Editorial Page editor Peter Hadekel asks to be reassigned. His request is granted.

Dec. 11
Fifty-four journalists and other staff at The Montreal Gazette publish an open letter denouncing the national editorial policy as an infringement on freedom of expression. The text runs in Toronto and French-language Montreal newspapers but is not carried, much less mentioned, in any CanWest publication. The protest is covered by Canoe, a web site owned by a rival media operation, Quebecor. Other journalists add their signatures after the fact, bringing the total to 77.

Dec. 14
An "advisory" to unionized staff from Montreal Gazette management warns employees that working there is a privilege, not a right. The gag order warns that employees risk disciplinary action, up to and including dismissal, for sharing the internal goings-on at CanWest with rival media or publicly questioning the motives of management. The Montreal Newspaper Guild (a Local of TNG Canada/CWA) files a grievance but, under pressure, a web site independently set up by Gazette employees to voice their concerns is taken off-line. The Federation of Professional Journalists of Quebec soon re-posts the material on its Web server.

June 6 2002
Full-page ads appear in the Globe and Mail, the Winnipeg Free Press and Halifax's Chronicle-Herald – three of the few major Canadian newspapers not controlled by CanWest – denouncing the company's stifling of debate and dissent. The signatories are a Who's Who of Canadian journalism, including former publishers and executives of the newspapers now owned by CanWest. The ad was refused for publication in any CanWest paper.

Sept. 17 2004
Reuters news agency says it will be having a chat with CanWest Global officials about editors at their newspapers inserting inappropriate terminology, such as "terrorists," into their coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. CBC Ottawa reports that the National Post altered Reuters copy while The Ottawa Citizen, which was caught out by an alert reader, distorted an Associated Press story for which it ran a correction.

Members of the Asper family, which owns CanWest, have never made a secret of their unqualified support for Israel and their disdain for journalists who strive to be objective in their coverage of the Middle East conflict(s). While Izzy Asper and his now-CEO son, Leonard, clearly delivered the message to CanWest Global reporters and editors that news copy as well as "national editorials" would reflect their personal views, this is the first time a news service has publicly objected to its copy being altered in such a way.

Sept 22
Globe and Mail publishes a commentary by Mazen Chouaib, executive director of the National Council on Canada-Arab Relations, in which he calls upon "Parliament to take a hard look at the impact and effect of media concentration in this country." Excerpts:

When the late Israel Asper's CanWest Global Communications acquired a significant share of the Canadian media, many of us feared the worst — particularly on the issue of Middle East coverage. In the past week, CanWest's editorial practices have shown we were right to worry.

• • •

For many Arab Canadians, this is another example of what they have long complained about: CanWest seems to make every effort to demonize them and their culture. There have been many complaints by Arab groups against CanWest, but the organization maintains an uncompromising and unapologetic position.

Nov. 17
The pro-Israel Aspers acquire a 50-per-cent interest in the Jerusalem Post, an English-language daily owned by disgraced media baron Conrad Black

link


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 11:22 AM

Bobad's insinuation that all of the people involved the flotilla are anti-Semites is not only an insult to our intelligence, it is also an insult to his intelligence as well. (When I say that, I am giving him the benefit of the doubt.)

I wonder what pavlovian conditioning Holocaust survivor Heddie Epstein was responding to when she signed up to accompany the flotilla.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 11:44 AM

We know we can't always trust the media for impartiality...

Sorry but bloggers whether "real" or "fake" are hardly "the media".

Any jackass can post a blog and anyone that would believe what's written thereon without independent confirmation from a reliable source is worse than an idiot.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 11:53 AM

Golly I'm agreeing with GregF. Is it the apocalypse?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 11:59 AM

"Any jackass can post a blog"

Blogs are, or so we imagine, generally created by individual jackasses, and not generally mass-generated by jackass governments.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 12:16 PM

Amazing number of experts on international maritime law seem to be Mudcat regulars. Must be the shanty singing I suppose.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 12:25 PM

I don't know why anyone would think that the mainstream media (corporate media) whould be any more reliable than independent bloggers. Many independent bloggers are professional career journalists who no longer work for the corporate media because they refused to toe the corporate line. Just as with the corporate media, anyone reading a blog should verify whenever possible, but to make blanket statements about all bloggers makes no sense at all and shows a lot of ignorance about the nature of blogs these days.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 12:46 PM

CarolC,

"All of that stuff was planted by the Israelis, beardedbruce"

You have some proof? I have no proof that the deaths were not caused by the pro-Palestinians themselves- since they are the ones benefiting from it, I guess that means they should be presumed to be guilty .


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Royston
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 12:54 PM

Beardedbruce

The proof is in the press - courtesy of the Israeli military spokeswoman that was quoted in the Guardian article I produced earlier today.

The only "weapons" apart from scissors, swiss army knives and kitchen knives, were guns and night vision scopes that were taken from, or dropped by, the Israeli soldiers. And were later returned. The spokeswoman said that the clips in the guns were empty when returned - she did not, or could not, say who fired the bullets.

I don't believe that Israeli special forces are in the habit of relinquishing loaded weapons to civilians armed with screwdrivers and tools for getting stones out of horse's hoof!

Fact, the boats and their passengers were unarmed.

The Israeli military have confirmed this.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 01:04 PM

IDF: Hamas stops flotilla aid delivered by israel
By the CNN Wire Staff
June 2, 2010 12:04 p.m. EDT

STORY HIGHLIGHTS
Trucks of flotilla aid halted stopped at Gaza crossing
Clothing, medical material, blankets on trucks
Israel has naval blockade of Gaza

Jerusalem (CNN) -- Israel has attempted to deliver humanitarian aid from an international flotilla to Gaza, but Hamas -- which controls the territory -- has refused to accept the cargo, the Israel Defense Forces said Wednesday.

Palestinian sources said trucks that arrived from Israel at the Rafah terminal at the Israel-Gaza border were barred from delivering the aid over protests that members of the flotilla were not delivering the materials.

Israel had 20 trucks of aid found on the ships, such as expired medications, clothing, blankets, some medical equipment and toys.

Nine people died on Monday when Israel intercepted an aid vessel bound for Gaza.

Under Israeli policy, humanitarian aid must come through Israel and be checked by Israeli authorities who are looking to intercept smuggled weapons bound for militants aiming to attack Israel.

As part of this policy Israel forbids ships from dropping off goods at Gaza ports and works to thwart smuggling via tunnels between Gaza and Egypt.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 01:04 PM

David Cameron has condemned the Israeli raid on an aid convoy in Gaza as "completely unacceptable".

In his first question time as prime minister, he said he deplored the loss of life and everything should be done to prevent it happening again.

Here is the link
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/10218450.stm

Make of it what you will.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 01:04 PM

source


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 01:09 PM

BB,

The Information blackout was imposed by the Israeli military after the attack began.

Up until that point, the flotilla had been 100% transparent, with numerous international parliamentary and media representatives on hand to ensure this transcparency.

It was the Israeli military who wanted to stop information getting out.

So who had something to hide?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 01:13 PM

Ah, Hamas is playing politics with the aid shipments, therefore Israel was justified in attacking unarmed ships in international waters? Such logic.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 01:16 PM

The Israelis were also carrying hit lists of people they were supposed to try to kill. I saw one of them being displayed by the correspondents periodically on the live feed. Here is a picture of the hit list I saw being displayed...

http://www.kawther.info/wpr/wp-content/uploads/1-18.jpg


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 01:38 PM

mousethief: Golly I'm agreeing with GregF. Is it the apocalypse?

Sorry! I'll try harder next time ;>)


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 02:16 PM

There were a number of Arab Palestinians on board, some from Israel itself. They are not being released with the others.
One newscast said that a number of the Turks aboard also were being held.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: EBarnacle
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 03:15 PM

CarolC: "All that stuff was planted." I suggest you read "Looking for a Ship" by McPhee on the subject of smuggling and inspections.

"Safeguarding the precious lives of innocents and respecting their dignity as fellow humans is the necessary burden that international law imposes on war." If you are engaged in a provocative act, you are a participant, not an innocent.

Of the ships in the flotilla, how many actually were fired upon? And by fired upon, I mean with more than a shot across the bowx. How many had violent incidents when boarded?

I know for a fact that part of police training amounts to the following: If the person appears to show any threat, pull out your club. If he pulls a knife, pull out your gun. If he still threatens you, shoot [now, it's Taze] him. We don't want you to be hurt or killed in the line of duty. Should soldiers respond any differently when threatened?

Hamas in Gaza is playing a wonderful game. While not officially at war with Israel, they make no effort to stop their so called militants from attacking Israel. These attacks, if addressed at all, are then disclaimed as the actions of militants.

I have spoken with members of the Palestinian Mission to the United Nations in the line of business. I find it curious that people can find money for weapons but cannot find the money for Atmospheric Water Generation equipment which would benefit the population of the Strip.

Curiouser and curiouser said Alice.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 03:19 PM

beardedbruce, on the subject of the faked "evidence"...

http://ht.ly/1TaQb


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 03:22 PM

EBarnicle, shots from the helicopters wounded two people. We know this because the correspondents reported it in the live feed before the ropes had even come out of the helicopter that you can see in the live feed, and before any of the Israelis had left the helicopter.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 03:31 PM

I should point out, for those who don't like to open links, those "weapons" weren't even planted. The Israelis didn't even bother to do that. They just gathered up some pictures that were a few years old, put them up on Flikr, and then they just waited for all of the useful idiots to go out and do their work for them.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 03:32 PM

If Hamas are preventing the Aid from getting through then they are undermining the efforts and intentions of the flotilla.

For this I condemn them outright.

Just As I condemn the Israelis from hijacking the flotilla and murdering the civilians on board.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 03:35 PM

Maybe they are and maybe they aren't. I've also heard reports that none of the supplies ever even got to the Gaza border, and that the government of Israel has disappeared them, blaming it on Hamas (some of the reports have even suggested that the supplies have gone to Jewish settlements). I think I'll wait for more information before I believe that one, considering the Israeli government's track record of lies and what has happened to supplies from previous flotillas that were confiscated by the government of Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Penny S.
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 04:07 PM

Some time back, a friend of mine, while working on a wildlife site in a London park, was engaged with by a group of four lads spoiling for a fight. It was a very peculiar business (there was a territorial issue, over the lads continued attempts to remove fences from the site, I recall), in which the four lads, approaching six foot, but only 14 years old, claimed to be being picked on by my unarmed 5ft 8in friend. The lads had a metal tipped cricket stump. Eventually all was resolved, but one thing stuck in my mind. The claim by the leader of lads' friends that "he was only little".

Every time Israel gets into one of these situations, and tries to justify itself, I hear that lads' claim.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 04:36 PM

[From: CarolC - PM
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 03:31 PM
I should point out, for those who don't like to open links, those "weapons" weren't even planted. The Israelis didn't even bother to do that. They just gathered up some pictures that were a few years old, put them up on Flikr, and then they just waited for all of the useful idiots to go out and do their work for them.]

Link to Irael MFA's Flickr Photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/israel-mfa/

Can anyone explain to me, how so many of the posters in response to these images, are able (apparently) to ascertain that the images of the umm seized "weapons cache" are in fact way out of date, and thus not images of anything on board the flotilla.

Irrespective of whether or not the images are genuinely of what they are purported to be of, I find it a bit bizarre that the Israeli's would have even bothered falsifying 'evidence' of a "weapons cache" comprised of a kitchen knives, woodworking tools and marbles..


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 04:40 PM

Lets try that again:

[From: CarolC - PM
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 03:31 PM
I should point out, for those who don't like to open links, those "weapons" weren't even planted. The Israelis didn't even bother to do that. They just gathered up some pictures that were a few years old, put them up on Flikr, and then they just waited for all of the useful idiots to go out and do their work for them.]

Link to Irael MFA's Flickr Photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/israel-mfa/ (I've kept the original url in the link there, in case anyone's dubious about what they might be clicking on)

Can anyone explain to me, how so many of the posters in response to these images, are able (apparently) to ascertain that the images of the umm seized "weapons cache" are in fact way out of date, and thus not images of anything on board the flotilla.

Irrespective of whether or not the images are genuinely of what they are purported to be of, I find it a bit bizarre that the Israeli's would have even bothered falsifying 'evidence' of a "weapons cache" comprised of a kitchen knives, woodworking tools and marbles..


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 05:10 PM

I don't know the process one would use to find this information, but this is what one of the commenters posted in the comments of the saw photograph. Maybe someone with more technical expertise can explain how one goes about getting the EXIF metadata from photographs posted in a site like flikr...


Hi. Just to confirm that the EXIF metadata points to this photo being taken in 2006:

barney@benchwood:~$ identify -verbose farm5.static.flickr.com/4047/4662965686_a91f8 bab2e_o_d.jpg | grep Date
exif:DateTime: 2010:06:02 10:38:47
exif:DateTimeDigitized: 2006:02:07 05:52:19
exif:DateTimeOriginal: 2006:02:07 05:52:19


I notice a lot of bouquets of red flowers laying around in that picture. I wonder what those are doing there.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM

Java EXIF viewer from a dependable source, though it only gives the original date. You'll need to have the Java runime on your computer.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 05:36 PM

Thanks, Paul.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 05:59 PM

I asked one of my Facebook friends, a young woman who lives in Gaza, if she knows anything about the reports that Hamas has refused to allow the aid to enter Gaza, and this was her response...

"that news are just stupid lies !! well i think that they are looking for a way to make it a little bit easier on Isreal !! it is not not not true !! Hamas people still PALESTINIAN .. and they can not and would not do this !! they need it more than every body !!! how they could do that !!! Crazy westren news !!"

I will keep looking around for more information, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 06:24 PM

"I notice a lot of bouquets of red flowers laying around in that picture. I wonder what those are doing there."

Yep, lots of plastic wrapped bunches of red roses or carnations laying about on board next to that umm "weapon": http://www.flickr.com/photos/israel-mfa/4662965686/

Could that site be a spoof?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 06:31 PM

More reported weapons on the flotilla (I've left the url in): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PV4eiDi12w


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 06:35 PM

Could that site be a spoof?

No, the hasbara people really are that dumb.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 10:42 PM

Nutmeg is coming to destroy Israel


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 11:34 PM

Nutmeg and sunflower seeds. Those can be made into rockets. Put de lime in de coconut. That was about liquid explosives, remember?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 11:34 PM

Ain't rocket surgery...

Isreal is strengthening Hamas with it's blockaid...

Folks root fir the underdog and Isreal is creating an underdog in Hmas...

Time for some serious rethinkin' in Isreal... Times have changed... Military might alone won't keep Isreal secure... This is a new deal here... People are too connected... Isreal is fightin' the "last war"...

I'd say it's time to get this thing figured out... Without the the friggin' militraists this time... They are passe'... They have nuthin' to offer...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 11:42 PM

I understand about the lexdexia, Bobert, but I can't let this one pass...

Isreal is strengthening Hamas with it's blockaid...


Maybe that's what they should call the next flotilla. It's perfect.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 12:08 AM

Oooh! Major PR coup! I can see a concert with big-name stars, raising money for cardamon and nutmeg and sunflower seeds to smuggle into Gaza:

BLOCKAID

Please give generously.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 12:27 AM

By the way, one way people can help the Palestinians cope with the economic difficulties they face because of the stranglehold that the Israeli government and military have over them is to go to this site and buy some of their great products. They are made in Palestine by Palestinians (not in an apartheid settler colony). I bought a kufiyeh that was made in the last Palestinian kufiyeh factory by Mr. Herbawi and I love it.

http://www.palestineonlinestore.com/


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:09 AM

I just got word from a source I trust that Israel has stolen all of the aid along with the ships, and has no intention of letting any of it go to help the people in Gaza. I'll keep an eye out for more sources of information about this for further verification.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:17 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMq19qHq7Jo&feature=player_embedded


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 03:29 AM

Yesterday I heard an Israeli spokesman claim that cement was a banned import into Gaza (deperately needed to re-build damage done to schools and hospitals by the last Israeli incursion) because it could be used by Hamas to build military installations!! Following this 'logic' I assume that foodstuffs could be added to the list because it could be used to feed Hamas fighters!
I don't know how far the forged Irish passports incident has hit the world press. A couple of months ago Israeli terrorists used forged Irish passports.

From The Belfast Telegraph:
"Members of a hit squad that assassinated a top Hamas military commander used Irish passports to enter and leave Dubai, it's been claimed.
The suspected Israeli hit team, including at least one woman, entered the United Arab Emirates using Irish documents, police authorities said.
Mahmoud al-Mabhouh (50), held responsible by Israel for the abduction and murder of two Israeli soldiers in 1989, died in mysterious circumstances on January 20 in a Dubai hotel room.
The Irish Department of Foreign Affairs spokesman said yesterday: "We are aware of the media reports and we are in contact with authorities locally to try and determine the truth of the reports."
Al-Mabhouh was said to have been shocked with an electric weapon held to his legs and then suffocated or poisoned.
Iran and Hamas have blamed Israel for the killing, but Israeli news media claimed al-Mabhouh had many enemies and could have been killed by other Arab factions.
Up to seven people were said to have been involved in al-Mabhouh's killing, four of whom used Irish passports to enter Dubai and who later fled to a "European country" after the killing, according to police sources in Dubai.
Declining to reveal their identities, an official said UAE security personnel were co-ordinating with Interpol to have them extradited
A few years ago the Israeli's were reported to have sent one of their murder-squads to the Irish Republic to carry out the murder of a Palestinian seeking refuge here."

Nazi extermination camps were at their most efficient during my lifetime, so I grew up surrounded by horrific images of Belsen and Auschwitz. I'm sure I'm not alone in finding it extremely distressing to witness the persecuted having become the persecuters and resorting to many of the tactics used by their former 'ethnic cleansers' in pursuit of a two thousand year old myth.
This bunch are shitting on the memory of their own predecessors.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:34 AM

""The pattern is pretty well established - Israel is provoked until it has no choice but to respond to the provocation thus providing those who hate them with another opportunity to condemn them and call for an end to their state. The response is Pavlovian as evidenced by the majority of posters to this thread.""

That is the best example of pure horseshit I have seen for many a day.

1. PIRACY! The aid ships were in international waters. For the Israelis to claim justification, or provocation, they would have to be inside Israeli territorial limits, or what the Israelis claim as their territorial waters (not necessarily the same thing).

2. The Israeli blockade is of dubious legality to say the least, and if it cannot be justified, then neither can any action taken in its support.

3. NO CONTRABAND WAS FOUND! Experience of the efficiency of Israeli Intelligence leads one to suspect that they would have known exactly what was, or was not, aboard those ships, in which case they were intentionally targetting a humanitarian aid shipment, with the intention of harming innocent civilians in Gaza.

4. Nothing that has been advanced or proposed as justification stands analytical scrutiny. This is just another case of the Middle East's biggest bully flexing its muscles in full expectation of support from the West's biggest bully.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:50 AM

'Among the calamities of war may be jointly numbered the diminution of the love of truth, by the falsehoods which interest dictates and credulity encourages.' (from Samuel Johnson In The Idler, 1758)

So what is the reality behind the bombardment of information from the Jerusalem Post and the vociferous number of internet 'programmed posters' that Hamas has refused the delivery of the electric wheelchairs on board the Freedom Flotilla

Amongst the reports which state that a condition of negotiation about the disposal of the aid is the release of ALL the detainees from the flotilla without exception (some are still detained for 'unspecified reasons') it is sometimes possible to spot the comment by Ahmed Kurd, Minister for Social Welfare in the Hamas government
"We also insist that the equipment be delivered in its entirety."

The Jerusalem Post (part of the CanWest empire) reports that Kurd 'claims' the batteries have been removed from the wheelchairs

It is a fact that batteries are on the list of goods banned from import into Gaza - the lack of fuel for the Gaza power plant has forced hospitals to rely exclusively on back-up generators, which are not intended for prolonged use and are often damaged.
The replacement parts needed to fix them cannot be brought in so hospitals try to use Uninterruptible Power Supply devices to reduce the risk of power cuts on sensitive medical equipment; however, these rely on batteries.

So do we assume that the battery units required to power the wheelchairs have been impounded under the current ban rendering the 'delivery' of the chairs an empty gesture or that the Israeli authorities have suddenly had a total reversal change of heart under the scrutiny of the world or go along with the Jerusalem posts allegation that "This proves the whole thing was a provocation"?


Propaganda war: trusting what we see?

..."I have had several hundred e-mails about this article. They are more or less evenly balanced between those who criticise it and those who praise it. I think I have replied to all.

I would stress that I looked only at the Israeli side because of the new factor - Israel setting up a special unit to improve the projection of its arguments around the world."


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 06:00 AM

""I find it curious that people can find money for weapons but cannot find the money for Atmospheric Water Generation equipment which would benefit the population of the Strip.""

There were NO weapons aboard that flotilla!

And if they did find the money, purchase the equipment, and have it shipped over, I suppose in your fantasy world the Israelis would simply let it through?

ROFLMAO
Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 06:17 AM

That point about the atmospheric water generator kind of smacks of "let them eat cake" anyway. Even if they did have one, how the hell could they use it if Israel won't let them have enough electricity to run it?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 07:26 AM

"the Geneva-based UN Human Rights Council voted to set up an independent international inquiry into the raid."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10222131.stm

I'm a bit confused about this supposed 'independent' inquiry, I thought the US BLOCKED an independent UN inquiry, and instead successfully pushed for it to be conducted by Israel itself. Or is the use of the term 'independent' a fudge?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 07:33 AM

Ah, my fault. I'm muddling up the UN human rights council with the UN security council.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:10 AM

It is confusing.....

"U.S. President Barack Obama stepped in to save Israel yesterday at the United Nations Security Council from an independent probe of Tuesday morning's Gaza flotilla raid that resulted in the Israeli navy killing nine civilians. Hopefully, Israel will express its gratitude to our nation by continuing its freeze on settlements in the West Bank and negotiating seriously with the Palestinians toward an end to the occupation and a solution for Gaza.

But a U.S. 'no' vote could not halt another U.N. body, the Human Rights Council – the group that commissioned the Goldstone Report – from today launching its own probe of the botched Israeli move to halt a civilian humanitarian aid operation for Gaza."

- from a report by Eileen White Read
a former Wall Street Journal defense, technology, and communications professional for international NGOs in human rights, microcredit, and advocacy. Currently working on an anti-genocide project at a Washington, DC, think tank.

Read White AND the Jerusalem Post are already referring to this as Goldstone 11

In April 2009, the United Nations Human Rights Council appointed South African jurist Richard Goldstone to lead the mission of investigating war crimes committed by Israel in the war in Gaza between December 27, 2008 and January 18, 2009.

This report concluded that both Israel and Hamas were probably guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity causing Harvard Law School's Professor Alan Dershowitz to call Goldstone "a traitor using his Jewishness to malign Israel… He is an evil man, one who allowed himself to be used against the Jewish people, an absolute traitor."

The Israeli government refused to conduct an independent investigation of the report's findings.

A senior official in prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office said "Bibi is satisfied with the IDF's internal probe, the preliminary results of which were submitted to the United Nations" in early February.

The US representative at the security council discussions, Alejandro Wolff, has indicated that Washington would be satisfied with Israel investigating itself when he called for it to undertake a credible investigation into the murders on board the Freedom Flotilla

Ynet the Tel Aviv based newspaper reported -

' "Israel regrets the UN Human Rights Council's decision to launch an independent investigation into the raid before the incident ended.
Such a decision indicates politicization, not genuine concern for human rights," Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor said Thursday.
Members of the so-called forum of seven ministers, including Eli Yishai and Benny Begin, are opposed to the establishment of an international commission of inquiry and have called to wait for the IDF to publish its own findings.'

"We'll know how to investigate the raid from every angle and draw the necessary conclusions" said Vice Prime Minister Moshe Ya'alon


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:15 AM

Well, one thing is fir sure... Isreal is at yet another crossroads and bickering amoung themselves... That sometimes is a good thing... Hope the reasobale people don't get shouted down by their Military/Industrialists...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:19 AM

B. B. Wolfe said, after the raid on the chicken coop by a band of roving wolves under his oversight, "I know how to investigate this raid from every angle and draw the necessary conclusions."

Good grief. They don't even try to make their lies probable anymore. Who was it that said if you repeat a lie often enough people will believe it? The Israeli government has clearly learned the lesson well.

Also accusing the UNHRC of not caring about human rights is ROFLMAO.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:23 AM

As always happens in events of this nature, observers such as ourselves never are able to access the full facts & issues surrounding the incident.

However, what I've gleaned from overall info leads me to a conclusion thus:

The Israeli forces [I stress not necessarily representing all Israeli people as a homogeneous mass] violently attacked unarmed civilian vessels & their crews with military weapons.

The Iraeli PM & govt spokespeople in official statements justify these crimes as 'self protection' of their forces.

Pondering why it was necessary to kill people wielding sticks, knives whatever clearly protecting themselves, when there's other non lethal technologies available such as tear gas, tazers etc.

Consequently, its not a suprise I'm feeling [as most on here, & along with the rest of world opposition] that what's happened is murder.

I heard Bang Ki Moon of UN speaking on it, but sadly feel that group are paper tigers against the US/Israeli pact.

I could go on.............weep,,,,,,,,,join Amnesty International or similar..........


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:34 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_clash


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:43 AM

There is no confusion here. Mark Regev and the Israel and AIPAC propaganda forces are saturating the main stream news media with their distorted and lying stories about the naked aggression against peaceful demonstrators. Disinvestment against Israel is one of the courses that must be taken. The IDF is the new KGB or SS.

We'll see what happens with the "Rachel Corrie" when it tries to get through.

It's the same as what happened in South Africa. The people of Gaza are in a canton.
They need their civil rights restored.

Shame on Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 10:15 AM

'Next time we'll use more force'

'Navy prepares for expected arrival of 2 more activist ships.

Israel will use more aggressive force in the future to prevent ships from breaking the sea blockade on the Gaza Strip, a top Navy commander told The Jerusalem Post on Tuesday.

"We boarded the ship and were attacked as if it was a war," the officer said. "That will mean that we will have to come prepared in the future as if it was a war." '

From the article by Eileen Read White quoted earlier -

"Hasbara, or Israeli political spin, is actually already underway – a multi-million-dollar PR machine, involving government employees, academics, friendly journalists, consultants, and activists around the world. CNN reports that, after displaying "a willful indifference to public opinion for years," the Israel Defense Force is trying hasbara on the convoy killings story, posting a series of heavily-edited short videos of the situation aboard ship on YouTube, showing only soldiers being hit as they arrived on board – no footage of the soldiers killing nine civilians.

Israel-related media around the world are running stories about the commandos landing and shooting their paintball guns – with zero reference to the fact that their real guns killed nine people."

A brutal ambush at sea

"Navy commandoes slid down to the vessel one by one, yet then the unexpected occurred: The passengers that awaited them on the deck pulled out bats, clubs, and slingshots with glass marbles, assaulting each soldier as he disembarked. The fighters were nabbed one by one and were beaten up badly, yet they attempted to fight back.

However, to their misfortune, they were only equipped with paintball rifles used to disperse minor protests, such as the ones held in Bilin. The paintballs obviously made no impression on the activists, who kept on beating the troops up and even attempted to wrest away their weapons."

However the next paragraph ststes clearly.....

"One soldier who came to the aid of a comrade was captured by the rioters and sustained severe blows. The commandoes were equipped with handguns but were told they should only use them in the face of life-threatening situations."

The 'rioters' or passengers, as perhaps they should be more correctly termed, presumably were not expected to use self defence in 'life threatening situations'


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 10:25 AM

I've gone through a long process of figuring out where I stand on the subject of whether or not Israel should continue as a Jewish state. At first, I felt that a two state solution was the best one because the events of the Holocaust necessitated a place where Jews could be in the majority.

But there are many Jews who have persuaded me with their arguments, that a state with a permanent Jewish majority can never work. They say that Israel will have to implement a permanent state of ethnic cleansing and discrimination against non-Jews in order to maintain a permanent Jewish majority. I think they are right about that, but I still was having a problem trying to figure out how to address the needs of Jews that arose in light of past persecutions.

A few months ago, I finally figured out where I stand on this with no ambiguity in my mind. The Gypsies have suffered all of the same persecutions as Jews have, including their genocide and attempted extermination in the holocaust. And they have not experienced any of the gains that Jews have in the last century. Jews are one of the most protected, if not the most protected minority group in the world today. Gypsies do not have the kind of protection that Jews have today, so their place in the world is much more insecure.

So I ask myself - if it were proposed that some indigenous population somewhere should be permanently displaced and dispossessed in order to create an exclusive state for the Gypsies, would I support that? And I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that I would not. In light of this, I now know that I cannot support the permanent displacement and dispossession of the Palestinians in order to provide Jews with an exclusive state of their own.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 10:47 AM

I just got word back from my friend in Gaza. She went to a Hamas office and asked about what the Hamas position was in regard to receiving the aid. She said they told her that they wanted the aid to come to Gaza with the flotilla. She said they are sensitive to the reality that if they accepted the aid from Israel themselves, instead of letting the people on the flotilla bring it to Gaza, people would say that Hamas was keeping the aid for themselves (and we know that the hasbara machine would do exactly that, because they have done it before). And she said that the aid has the blood of innocent people on it.

Another facebook friend who was heavily involved with the flotilla has said that if the government of Israel really wanted to hand over the aid, they could do it without giving it to Hamas. He said that they could easily give it to NGOs to bring to Gaza and distribute. He believes that Israel will not ever hand that aid to any NGOs. He was involved in raising a lot of money to supply the Rachel Corrie, and he says he doesn't think the people of Gaza will ever see the aid from that ship either, or from any future flotillas. But the flotillas will continue nevertheless.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 11:01 AM

If Israel really wanted Gaza to get aid, it would let the aid that is currently being offered (before the flotilla) get through. Making bogus rules about nutmeg shows what they really want is to subjugate. Gaza is a ghetto.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 11:13 AM

`So I ask myself - if it were proposed that some indigenous population somewhere should be permanently displaced and dispossessed in order to create an exclusive state for the Gypsies, would I support that? And I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that I would not. In light of this, I now know that I cannot support the permanent displacement and dispossession of the Palestinians in order to provide Jews with an exclusive state of their own.`

North American native peoples would be very pleased to read that. In fact, your continued existence in North America speaks to the fact that you DO support the permanent displacement of previously existing peoples. As to who displaced who in the mid-East, check the history books.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 11:23 AM

There weren't a whole hell of a lot of European Jews in Palestine before the late 19th century. I checked the history books.

If Israel treated Palestine the way the US treats its indigenous peoples (which isn't great, I will admit) then the world would have a lot less opprobrium for Israel. If all the Indians in America were put in two reservations, one of which the whites kept shrinking and the other of which they kept in a perpetual state of poverty and disrepair by deliberately blocking aid (and nutmeg) from getting in from outside, then maybe your analogy would be interesting. As it is, it's facile.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 11:30 AM

"If Israel treated Palestine the way the US treats its indigenous peoples"

Well, it's arguably better now than it was during the period where the indigenous peoples were virtually exterminated by white settlers.

I'm sure no-body blames people innocently born on land violently seized and occupied by their forebears - no-body can bare responsibility for evils of the past - but I'd suggest we *are* all collectively responsible for the actions which our people/government/nation undertake on our behalf in the *present*.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 12:03 PM

My English Jewish friends (all descendants of Holocaust refugees) are ashamed of Israel. In fact they are the most angry "anti-Semitic" sounding voices I hear.

In the media, I've heard Jewish critics of Israel's behaviour "self-hating". It must be very troubling for people like my friends - those who see it as such - to witness echoes of the very same atrocities which their own grandparents escaped to England from, and then to be damned by their own people as a consequence of feeling that way.

I don't know, exactly what is it that makes the abuser, abuse? But it's even more perplexing on a collective scale.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 12:06 PM

EDIT: 'I've heard Jewish critics of Israel's behaviour LABELLED "self-hating".'


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 12:11 PM

Sorry, that was something of a thread drift prompted by a conversation I had with a friend of mine yesterday.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 12:18 PM

Who should I displace so that I might leave the US, PEACE? No matter where I go, I will be occupying someone else's land. I could just lay down and die, but I if I do that, I will be of no help to anyone. If I remain where I am and work to try to correct iniquities (even those being carried out against the native peoples of this country), I can make a difference.

I actually support the Native American movement to take back sovereignty of this country.

So spare my your hypocrisy, PEACE.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 12:24 PM

And by the way, most Israeli archaeologists and historians accept as fact that the European Jews have no historical or ancestral ties to the Middle East, whatever. None. Zip. Nada. I do not dispute the legitimacy of the presence of the Mizrahim. But the European Jews have no legitimate claim to that land whatever.

Having said that, I have not suggested forcing the European Jews to leave Israel. I am saying that all of the Palestinian refugees and their descendants have a right to return to their homes or as close as they can get to what was their homes before they were driven out, and the government should not have a specifically Jewish character. It's character should be neutral with regard to any particular ethnic group.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 12:31 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05bo1xh1JDo


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 12:53 PM

CarolC writes: "all of the Palestinian refugees and their descendants have a right to return to their homes".

It seems so reasonable. Many of my friends say the same thing. BUT. If we would adopt this idea for the many peoples in the World and in Europe that had to move away from their land and support projects of return, we would set much of the world ablaze. Much of Europe, at least.

We can't support Jews projects of return to what no doubt was their homeland before the Romans drove them away. We can't support the Palestinian in a similar idea. We must support the idea of giving both people, two peoples they are, their land and state. Dear CarolC, I don't like no religion, but today I must face the fact that at least for a long long time, not necessarely for ever and ever, one will be a state with a strong Jewish character, and the other a state with a strong Muslim character. In the first case, I must say that Israel has been able for a period to manage being the Jewish state and a laical state as well and the only democracy in the area. I hope the other state will emancipate from being a theocracy. But they can't be a single state, not now, in this very period of history, if we want to consider real situation and not only our ideas.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:04 PM

That is a thoughtful post, Roberto. But if you support a permanent Jewish majority in Israel, then you also support discrimination and ethnic cleansing of those in Israel who are not Jewish.

The Palestinians have a right to return to their areas of origin under international law and United Nations resolutions. Preventing them from doing so it a crime.

If the Palestinians in occupied Palestine decide that they would prefer a state of their own, I don't think it is my place to argue with them about that. But the Palestinian Israelis will still be facing discrimination and ethnic cleansing in Israel, and I can't support that.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:05 PM

"We can't support Jews projects of return to what no doubt was their homeland before the Romans drove them away. We can't support the Palestinian in a similar idea."

Surely no group can sensibly refer to supposed land rights from a Millenium or two ago?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:10 PM

1923- The treaty ending WW I created the states in the area- INCLUDING a Jewish Homeland.

Since some here think this does not matter , why don't we invalidate the other nations created at that time, by that treaty?

No more Syria, Lebenon, Iraq, Jordan, etc.

Or is it just Jews that get the shaft?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: kendall
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:16 PM

If the Israelis planted anything on that ship, seems to me it would be weapons, not gas masks and body armor.

Were any weapons found?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:17 PM

Jews can have a homeland without having an exclusive state, beardedbruce.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:19 PM

So you agree that the ARAB Palestinian Homeland formed from that same Mandate should be disolved, and Jews allowed to settle there?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:19 PM

By the way, the Romans didn't drive away the European Jews, because the European Jews' ancestors never lived in the Middle East.

Kendall, no weapons were found.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:20 PM

Sure, beardedbruce. I think Jews should be able to live wherever they want. As long as they live there as equal citizens and not as occupiers or colonialists.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:25 PM

Than you disagree with all the Moslim countries, whio have laws against that.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:26 PM

Show me the laws, beardedbruce. And not from a Zionist source. Show me the laws from sources that represent the governments in question.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:27 PM

1923- The treaty ending WW I created the states in the area- INCLUDING a Jewish Homeland.

The Palestinians (some at least of whom had fought on the Allied side in WWI) were not consulted on this, since they were merely darkish people who happened to be in the way.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:29 PM

"why don't we invalidate the other nations created at that time, by that treaty?

No more Syria, Lebenon, Iraq, Jordan, etc."


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:31 PM

We should let the indigenous peoples of the Middle East decide how their region should be configured in terms of nations and boundaries. It's none of our f*cking business how they configure their region.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:33 PM

But the trouble is they don't seem to be agreeing how precisely they should configure it. As I think we have all noticed for many years.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:34 PM

That's not any of our business, Greg.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:37 PM

"Jews can have a homeland without having an exclusive state..." ~ CarolC

Muslims are about 40% of the population of Israel. Claiming that the Jewish state excludes them is wrong.

"...the Romans didn't drive away the European Jews, because the European Jews' ancestors never lived in the Middle East." ~ CarolC

Jews lived in Russia and Europe for centuries but they still have ancestry that goes back to the Holy Land.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:41 PM

pdq, do you consider Israel to be "the Jewish State"?

And if it's not, why aren't the Palestinians who were driven from their homes allowed to return?

The majority of Israeli archaeologists and historians agree and accept as fact that the European Jews originated from a Turkic people who had an empire in central Europe during the Middle Ages, and that they all converted to Judaism en mass, when their emperor did. They never lived in the Middle East.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:43 PM

"but they still have ancestry that goes back to the Holy Land."

Mmm, many Americans claim ancestry that goes back to the UK, maybe English people aught to be barricaded into Cornwall, so you'ze all can 'come home'?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:50 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewMGq11wQFI&feature=player_embedded


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:58 PM

The majority of Israeli archaeologists and historians agree and accept as fact that the European Jews originated from a Turkic people who had an empire in central Europe during the Middle Ages

Probably only partly true at most. There was such a tribe (the Khazars); it's doubtful if they contributed much to the Jewish gene pool in the long term though.

On the other hand, it's pretty certain that many Palestinians are descended from Jews of Holy Land times. It's also true, but conveniently forgotten by Zionist enthusiasts, that it was the Islamic Ottoman Empire that gave refuge to Sephardic Jews from Spain after Ferdibella and the Inquisition expelled them, and to Jewish refugees from Bavaria a little before that. Jews had considerable freedom, and self- governing status, until the decline of that empire brought Western- style racial nationalism to Turkey.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:03 PM

Paul, I've already provided more than ample documentation from Israeli sources for this assertion right here in the Mudcat. It happens to be true. There is little to no dispute among Israeli archaeologists and historians that the European Jews are descended from the Khazars. This is accepted as fact by the majority of Israeli archaeologists and historians.

This is simply not in dispute to any significant degree.

On another note...

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65222L20100603


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:15 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRZi2jOqRho


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:17 PM

"The history of Khazaria presents us with a fascinating example of how Jewish life flourished in the Middle Ages. In a time when Jews were persecuted thruout Christian Europe, the kingdom of Khazaria was a beacon of hope. Jews were able to flourish in Khazaria because of the tolerance of the Khazar rulers, who invited Byzantine and Persian Jewish refugees to settle in their country. Due to the influence of these refugees, the Khazars found the Jewish religion to be appealing and adopted Judaism in large numbers.

Most of the available information about the Khazars comes from Arabic, Hebrew, Armenian, Byzantine, and Slavic sources, most of which are reliable. There is also a large quantity of archaeological evidence concerning the Khazars which illuminates multiple aspects of the Khazarian economy (arts and crafts, trade, agriculture, fishing, etc.) as well as burial practices.

(Origins) The Khazars were a Turkic1 people who originated in Central Asia..."


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:25 PM

"Muslims are about 40% of the population of Israel. Claiming that the Jewish state excludes them is wrong."

INCORRECT

As of December 2009. Of the 7.5 million inhabitants of Israel 75.4% of them were Jewish (about 5,660,700 individuals), 20.3% were Arabs (About 1,523,900 inhabitants), while the remaining 4.3% (about 319,200 individuals) were defined as "others"

About 35% of all Israeli Jews are recently (first or second generation) descended from European Jews

Most Arab citizens of Israel are Muslim, particularly of the Sunni branch of Islam, and there is a significant Arab Christian minority from various denominations, as well as Arab Druze, among other religious communities.



Israeli Arabs have generally remained moderate throughout the years; they have enjoyed the benefits of an advanced economy, but they suffer serious discrimination in housing, access to resources and political representation.

However, as has been observed
"The fear of ethnic cleansing among the Arabs of Israel is real and growing. The current Israeli government is reinforcing this fear implicitly by requiring this vulnerable community to become even more compliant, with recent discussions of the need for a loyalty oath.

Furthermore, Foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman has introduced legislation, clearly targeting the Arab community, which if passed would "revoke citizenship or permanent status from any person convicted of terrorist activity or of espionage on behalf of a terrorist organization".
Is there a legitimate reason to apply more pressure on the most moderate Arab community in the Middle East? Such moves will only generate radicals. Israel needs more allies, not adversaries."


In 2001, Human Rights Watch issued a report that stated: "Government-run Arab schools are a world apart from government-run Jewish schools. In virtually every respect, Palestinian Arab children get an education inferior to that of Jewish children, and their relatively poor performance in school reflects this."
The report found striking differences in virtually every aspect of the education system

According to the 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the occupied territories, "Israeli Arabs were underrepresented in the student bodies and faculties of most universities and in higher professional and business ranks.

The Bureau of Statistics noted that the median number of school years for the Jewish population is 3 years more than for the Arab population. Well educated Arabs often were unable to find jobs commensurate with their level of education.

The 2007 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices notes that According to a 2005 study at Hebrew University, three times more money was invested in education of Jewish children as in Arab children."


According to The Guardian, in 2006 just 5% of civil servants were Arabs, many of them hired to deal with other Arabs, despite the fact that Arab citizens of Israel comprise 20% of the population.[


Hostility to intimate relationships developing across Israel's ethnic divide is shared by many Israeli Jews, who regard such behaviour as a threat to the state's Jewishness. One of the few polls on the subject, in 2007, found that more than half of Israeli Jews believed intermarriage should be equated with "national treason".

Since the state's founding in 1948 a series of legal and administrative measures have been taken by Israel to limit the possibilities of close links developing between Jewish and Arab citizens.

As civil marriage is banned in Israel, in the small number of cases where Jews and Arabs want to wed, they can do so only by leaving the country for a ceremony abroad. The marriage is recognised on the couple's return.

However Israel's Parliament has passed a law preventing Palestinians who marry Israelis from living in Israel.
Israeli Arabs who marry Palestinians from the West Bank or Gaza Strip will either have to move to the occupied territories, or live apart from their husband or wife. Their children will be affected too: from the age of 12 they will be denied citizenship or residency and forced to move out of Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:25 PM

Carol:

Just one example of the contrary view, with a summary of DNA evidence.

That the Eastern European Jews were not mainly descended from Khazars is evidenced by the simple fact that they spoke German, also known as Yiddish (I'm very sad to have to write that in the past tense).

But that has nothing to do with whether Israelis (or Somalis) are allowed to attack ships in international waters and kidnap the ship's complement. Or that collective punishments are a breach of international law. Or that if you want peace, you'd better start being just.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:33 PM

Emma B.

And the statistics for the Arab nations? How do they treat their Jewish populations?

How have the Minority populations on each side increased/decreased since 1948?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:38 PM

"That the Eastern European Jews were not mainly descended from Khazars is evidenced by the simple fact that they spoke German,.." etc.

With respect to those discussing the matter of genetics, this is a substantial side issue. The question surely is whether or not (even were such a claim to such ancestry substantiated) current treatment of Palestinians is reasonable based on such supposed ancestral claims. Or am I missing something?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:39 PM

There's quite a lot to work with, but here's a sample...

"Wexler argues from linguistic and other evidence "that the Ashkenazic Jews must have consisted of a mix of Greek, Balkan Romance and Balkan Slavic, Germano-Slavic and Turkic (Khazar, Avar) converts to Judaism and their descendants and only a minority of ethnic Jews—many of whom in all probability came from other parts of Europe rather than Palestine itself." Wexler rejects the Khazar mass migration hypothesis on linguistic grounds, arguing that there was more conversion in place than migration. "Hence, contemporary Judaism is best defined not as the continuation of the Judaism which served as an antecedent of Christianity and Islam, but as a newly Judaized variant of European (mainly Slavic) paganism and Christianity…most of the features of Old Palestinian Judaism and Semitic Hebrew to be found in Ashkenazic 'Judaism' and Medieval Ashkenazic/Modern Israeli 'Hebrew' were latter borrowings rather than original inheritance [original emphasis]." This thesis has been obscured by philo-German and anti-Slavic chauvinism among scholars, Jewish and non-, of Ashkenazi Jewry, by disciplinary blinders, and by inertia."

http://theglobalrealm.com/2010/02/06/the-invention-of-the-jewish-people/

A couple of years ago, I provided a synopsis of Schlomo Sands' book on this subject and another mudcatter provided what they apparently thought was a rebuttal of Sands' main thesis, but when I read the review, its main problem with Sands' work was that he seemed to think he was breaking new ground, and they were saying that what he had published was already common knowledge among Israeli academics. I'll try to find that one.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:40 PM

The above linked article also addresses the genetics issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:48 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydAGnTo4KJo


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:48 PM

I thought a Jew was someone of the Jewish religion ... genetics is not a matter of religion.

this thread is evolving into lunacy. But then I suspected it would from the beginning.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:52 PM

Well, number6, I think there are a lot of Jews who feel differently than you about that. I happen to disagree with them also.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:54 PM

When the West Bank and Gaza are included, the Muslim population is 40.1% and Jews just over 50%.

When driven out of the Holy Land about 2000 years ago, Jews went to every corner of Europe and started new lives. Saying that European Jews are mostly of Turic descent is just plain silly.

Calling Israel the Jewish State in quite common among Jews but probably disliked by Muslims.

Muslims are officially a majority in 48 countries and hugely influential in 20-30 more. The Jews got a puny piece of land, Muslims got 400 times as much land. The unhappy ones should find a new place to live.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:58 PM

Well Carol, Some do ... and some don't.

Digging into genetics we would be surprised to find that we are very much all the same.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:58 PM

What would the world look like if the diaspora of all the worlds races reclaimed those lands that they once occupied two thousand years ago?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:59 PM

The Jews were not driven out of the Holy Land about 2000 years ago. The descendants of those Jews are still there in the form of Christians, Muslims, and Jews.

When the West Bank and Gaza are included, the Muslim population is 40.1% and Jews just over 50%.

How many of the Muslims (or Christians) in the West Bank and Gaza have Israeli citizenship, pdq? How many of them are allowed to participate in Israeli politics?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 03:00 PM

The America's would certainly look a bit different for starters. I wonder where the current European descendants would be housed? Alaska?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 03:51 PM

There's a book about the theory of Khazar Jewish antecedents. "The Thirteenth Tribe" by Arthur Koestler.

1) Koestler wasn't a historian
2) The book had negiligible historical data to fall back on and is a classic case of the undergraduate student thesis having a pivotal couple of chapters padded out with commonly perceived history (what we would euphemistically call 'extensive backgrounding')
3) Koestler had a lot of hypothesis and conditionally framed sentences and paragraphs. He had very little that was solid in there.
4) Koestler explicitly stated that the Khazar theories should not be used as evidence pror or con Israel's right to exist as a UN recognized State.
5) There was some other stuff in there about racial perceptions which was not historical but very much Koestler.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 04:09 PM

I guess it's a good thing for my arguments that I'm relying on the majority of archaeologists and historians in Israel and not on Arthur Koestler, then, robomatic.

That was a very strange non-sequitur and straw man argument you gave just then. Did you really think I was stupid enough to fall for it?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 04:24 PM

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/3/huwaida


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:01 PM

I noticed in that list of stuff prohibited from being taken into Gaza that it includes musical instruments.

Logical enough, I suppose - after all, as Woody Guthrie wrote on his guitar "This machine kills fascists".


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:09 PM

Are you sure you've got this right? The Khazars were nice to the Jews, who therefore went to live with them. The Khazars then all converted to Judaism. The Jews then all died out, and the Khazars turned into the European Jews, who therefore had no right to go back to Israel. Well, I can think of several queries, but the main one is this: if the Khazars were so nice to them, how come all the Jews died.
The other query is: are you absolutely sure that all Israeli archaeologists believe this?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:32 PM

I think you should go back and read what I've said again, greg. You are mischaracterizing what I said rather liberally.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:35 PM

In answer to your question, though the Jews didn't all go to where the Khazars lived. The Khazar emperor converted to Judaism and his subjects all converted to Judaism along with him. Those Jews didn't all die out. Their descendants are the Ashkenazim - the European Jews of today.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:38 PM

Are all of you guys coordinating how you're going to come at me to try to poke holes in what I say? The way you do it is so predictable from one thread on this subject to another. You always do it the same way, and you almost always say the same things or use the same methods. Are you all working for the hasbara people?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:44 PM

"The Khazar emperor converted to Judaism and his subjects all converted to Judaism along with him." ~ CarolC

Please support that claim.

And you know that all converted? Not even 12 that didn't? How about a few hundred? A few thousand? Perhaps most?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:47 PM

Carol: it's very simple.

(1) We (most of us) are very much opposed to the Israeli state's actions of the last few days.
(2) The origin of European Jews, while interesting, is not very relevant to that.
(3) However, since you brung it up, some of us think your version is a bit controversial.
(4) Let's talk about that stuff later.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:49 PM

Ok. In a minute.


On another note...

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/2/israels_explanation_for_deadly_gaza_aid


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:49 PM

Paul, I didn't bring it up. PEACE did.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:52 PM

And by the way, you really can't separate that subject out from Israel's behavior towards the indigenous peoples of the Middle East, because Israel and many, many diaspora Jews use that very thing as their central argument for what gives them the right to behave in that way.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 06:12 PM

Here you go, pdq...

"The Himyar and Berber proselytes are overshadowed by the Khazars, who ruled from the fourth century, along the Volga, and in the eastern Ukraine, the Crimean peninsula and modern Georgia. The Silk Road and the Don and Volga gave the kingdom a rich and flourishing trade, and means for a powerful army. While the "spoken Khazar language consisted of Hunnic-Bulgarian dialects with others from the Turkic family," "[t]here is no doubt…that the Khazars' sacred tongue and written communication was Hebrew." The Khazars converted over time between the mid-eighth and mid-ninth centuries, and for the same reason "that accounted for Himyar's conversion…[t]he desire to remain independent in the face of mighty, grasping empires…Had the Khazars adopted Islam…they would have become subjects of the caliph. Had they remained pagan, they would have been marked for annihilation by the Muslims…Christianity, of course, would have subjected them to the Eastern Empire." Conversion began with the elite and included the larger population over time. Khazar Judaism was substantially rabbinical, though Kairate Judaism, a Protestant-like sect which regards the Hebrew Bible as solely authoritative, may have flourished also."

http://theglobalrealm.com/2010/02/06/the-invention-of-the-jewish-people/

By the way, the Khazars are not the only non-Jewish population that converted en mass to Judaism. There are others did as well, and they are discussed in that article. So many of the other Jews who are migrating to Israel also do not have Middle Eastern origins.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 06:37 PM

"...many of the other Jews who are migrating to Israel also do not have Middle Eastern origins." ~ CarolC

Fine, but you stared that all Khazars converted to Judaism. Some did, some did not.

You implied that nearly all European Jews were of non-Semitic origin. Also not the case.

This is all part of a carefully-written scam. An attempt to say that European Jews do not belong in the Jewish State when they do.

Besides, how many countries exist by popular decree of the United Nations.

As far as who comes to Israeal fter the majority of the world's nations recognized it, well, it's nobody else's buisness but the Israelis.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 07:01 PM

"An attempt to say that European Jews do not belong in the Jewish State when they do."

No, a succesful and consistent demonstration that there is no historical precedent which entitled European Jews to evict and replace palestinians.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 07:34 PM

What possible difference does it make if European Jews are descended from Turkic Khazars or from people who loived in the Holy Land two thousand years ago?

In neither came does it give them any right to displace the people who were living there when they immigrated.

Even in a literalistic reading of the Old Testament, in which the country was supposed to be gifted permanently to the descendants of Abraham, that would include Arabs every bit as much as Jews.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 07:52 PM

McGrath you are 100% right.

Unfortunately this point is a stumbling block in debates about Israel/Palestine.

It is helpful to be able to clearly distinguish and identify red herrings so that we no longer have to waste time chasing them when they are repeatedly thrown in to the mix.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:05 PM

pdq, the Ashkenazim do not have any ties to the Middle East. The article I posted says that also. The Khazars did convert en mass. They had good reason to do so, because becoming Jewish was their ticket to having a better life than they would have if they didn't. It's all spelled out pretty clearly in the article. None of the article disputes anything I've said, and it's all very much in keeping with accepted common knowledge among Israeli academics. The carefully written scam is the one what you have been taught to believe. You should read that whole article. You've been fed a pack of lies your whole life.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:07 PM

...the one that you have been taught to believe


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:36 PM

Here's some more background on that subject...

http://mideastfacts.org/facts/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=32&Itemid=34

http://themagneszionist.blogspot.com/2007/07/no-rivkele-there-wasnt-roman-exile-of.html

Paul Burke describes this accepted knowledge as controversial. It may be in countries like the US and the UK, but it is not regarded as being at all controversial in Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 10:25 PM

Carol C wrote:
I guess it's a good thing for my arguments that I'm relying on the majority of archaeologists and historians in Israel and not on Arthur Koestler, then, robomatic.

What you're relying on is a link. Ain't nothin' there any more solid than Koestler's little book which was not anything like solid. You are relying on your standard tactics of locating links that agree with you and leaning on them HEAVILY. and little else other than slamming your tired tactics out again and again.

But that's okay. Been there, done that with you before! And will again!


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 11:10 PM

Looks to me like you haven't even bothered to read what was in the links, robomatic. And by the way, I didn't just post a link. I posted a link with information inside of it. And it's a hell of a lot more than Koestler, so we can all see that now you are just lying. Which doesn't really surprise me, since all you hasbaratchiks have to work with is lies.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 12:44 AM

What was this thread about, again?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:33 AM

It was about this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swg-nFZS6so

http://gazaflotillasurvivors.posterous.com/attack-came-in-three-phases-says-survivor-abb

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2010/06/putting-names-to-faces.html

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2010/06/03/mary-hughes-thompson-free-gaza-co-founder-flotilla-update-from-cyprus/

http://aliabunimah.posterous.com/did-israel-try-to-assassinate-sheikh-raed-sal


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 02:26 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cQ69oKFtVg&feature=player_embedded


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 02:39 AM

CC: "many diaspora Jews use that very thing as their central argument for what gives them the right to behave in that way."

While Jewish people might *call upon* ancient historic ties to this land as a justification for inhumanitarian actions against the present indigenous peoples, any such call - irrespective of whether or not it might be provable - simply *doesn't* justify it.

It's a moot point.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 02:59 AM

Unfortunately it's not a moot point, because they are able to garner a lot of support, much of it political support, and raise a lot of funds here in the US using that argument, and these are two things that make it much easier for them to be able to keep on doing what they've been doing, and much more difficult for anyone else to get them to stop.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 03:28 AM

Could we be spared these Khazars? All we need now are the Knights Templar, the Illuminati and a few Cathars.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 03:29 AM

CC "it's not a moot point, because they are able to garner a lot of support, much of it political support, and raise a lot of funds here in the US using that argument,"

For the sake of this incident I think it's a moot point, though I totally get what your saying. However many people may use it, and however powerful or influential they may be, they are still wrong to try to do so. No amount of supposed ancient ancestral ties to a land, can justify abusing innocent people.

That's like you saying to me 'Once upon a time, my great great great granny probably lived in your village in England. So it's fine for me to come over there, kick you out of your house, and starve and beat you.' You could come up with documents that PROVE your great great great granny once lived in my village, but it wouldn't make any difference. I guess many people would simply disagree with that though.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 03:38 AM

Aaagh! I'm causing more thread drift!
Think I'll quit it there...


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 03:42 AM

However many people may use it, and however powerful or influential they may be, they are still wrong to try to do so.

I don't disagree with this.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:22 AM

Crow Sister: you may say that rights to the land should not be able to be enforced 2000 years on. The trouble is, these 2000 year old bits of history are absoultely part of the present day politics. Israeli attitudes to Jerusalem in the time of David and Solomon, and Palestinian attitudes to the same areas of land, and Islamic attitudes to the Dome of the Rock, are all current realities. They are not just history, however much you would like to wish them away by rational thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:31 AM

"They are not just history, however much you would like to wish them away by rational thought."

They are red herrings which distract us from the real issues.

They are also based on mythology and heavily distorted historical sources.

It would be like the Irish claiming to have a right to rule America as St Brendan was the first European to get there.

A Red Herring, not provable and not even the most likely course of events.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:06 AM

I've been seeing reports that one of the kidnapped aid workers managed to hide three memory chips with video of what happened in her underwear and will be releasing them today. I don't know if these reports are credible, but I'll post more as I find out.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:15 AM

This is tangentially related because it happened at one of the many demonstrations against the flotilla massacre...

http://palsolidarity.org/2010/05/12604/


Not one peep that I could find about it in the US mainstream media, either.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:19 AM

""Muslims are officially a majority in 48 countries and hugely influential in 20-30 more. The Jews got a puny piece of land, Muslims got 400 times as much land. The unhappy ones should find a new place to live.""

Translate that, if you will, to men with guns and international power coming to where you live and saying "we are relocating these victims of persecution, and your land has been chosen. They will not merely live within your community, they will rule it, and if you don't like it you can go live with relatives or friends elsewhere".

How would you feel about that?

Then imagine that these newcomers began to expand into larger and larger ares of your land, and pushed you back into the least productive corner, then set about starving you out.

I strongly believe you would be out in the street with an AK 47 too.

That is the situation in Palestine, and no amount of spin will change it.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:24 AM

U.S. Jewish student loses eye at roadblock protest


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:28 AM

""This is all part of a carefully-written scam. An attempt to say that European Jews do not belong in the Jewish State when they do.""

There's that blatant misrepresentation of fact again.

The state is ISRAEL. It's citizens are ISRAELIS.

Some Israelis are of the Jewish faith, and some are not.

There is no such country as "The Jewish State". IT DOES NOT EXIST

Can we now continue to discuss the act of PIRACY committed by the ISRAELI GOVERNMENT?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Arnie
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:06 AM

It will be interesting to see if any lessons have been learned when the aid vessel mv Rachel Corrie reaches Gazan waters on Saturday. The Israelis have vowed to intercept it, but have promised that they will act politely. That probably means using rubber bullets instead of live ammunition! My mother is of Jewish descent and has told me that I'm entitled to reside in Israel - that's an offer I definitely will not be taking up.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:15 AM

I have no wish to divert this thread into detailed 'academic' byways or disputes again but just a brief comment about 'The Jewish state'

Der Judenstaat or The Jewish State is a book written by Theodor Herzl, later hailed as the founder of the Zionist movement, published in 1896 in Leipzig and Vienna in which he describes in detail his vision of a Jewish state.

It is interesting that Herzl opposed the efforts already made by Zionist groups to settle Jews in Ottoman-controlled Palestine, arguing that
"important experiments in colonization have been made, though on the mistaken principle of a gradual infiltration of Jews.
An infiltration is bound to end badly.
It continues till the inevitable moment when the native population feels itself threatened,"
Quoted from The Jewish State, translated by Sylvie d'Avigdor, Nutt, London, 1896, and reprinted by Dover, 1988)

His last literary work Altneuland envisioned a Jewish state which combined both a modern Jewish culture with the best of the European heritage

Herzl did not envision the Jewish inhabitants of the state being religious, but there would be much respect for religion in the public sphere.

He did not foresee any conflict between Jews and Arabs as all non-Jews have equal rights, and an attempt by a fanatical rabbi to disenfranchise the non-Jewish citizens of their rights fails in the election which is the center of the main political plot of the novel
He directed his wrath against the nationalist party which wished to make the Jews a privileged class in Palestine.

Herzl regarded that as a betrayal of Zion, for Zion was identical to him with humanitarianism and tolerance

He also assumed that many languages would be spoken, but Hebrew would not be the main tongue. Proponents of a Jewish cultural rebirth, such as Ahad Ha'am were critical of Altneuland.



The terms a 'Jewish State' and the 'State of Israel' are frequently used interchangeably including in the November 1947, the United Nations General Assembly resolution outlining the 'Future Constitution and Government of Palestine'

"Hereby declare the establishment of a Jewish state in the land of Israel to be known as the State of Israel. …Israel will be open for Jewish immigration and for the "Ingathering of the Exiles"


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:29 AM

The spirit of Herzl lives on in modern Israel


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:44 AM

Rationalizing homicidal aggression

By John Robson, The Ottawa CitizenJune 4, 2010

One major lesson of history is that humans are frequently vile chumps. Unfortunately, because we are the audience as well as the topic, the lesson often fails to sink in.

I strongly suspect the same problem lies behind our frequent inability, or unwillingness, to draw obvious historical analogies. Presumably we all know exactly what to do the next time Hitler demands part of Czechoslovakia. But we nevertheless stare in bafflement, or worse, at North Korea or Hamas. Why?

Consider this luminous passage about appeasement I just encountered while rereading Peter Calvocoressi and Guy Wint's 1972 book Total War for a seminar I'm teaching on America at war. "Hitler's ravings," the authors say, "were passed over and he was regarded as a man who would make bargains and stick to them because it was difficult to see what to do if he was really a totally different kind of person."

Does this observation not shine a brilliant light on what's happening today, starting with Western regimes begging the Chinese government to help them do something about North Korea sinking a South Korean warship?

I would not say Western governments are completely unwilling to understand the North Korean regime. It is so evidently insane you just look stupid denying it. On the other hand, our would-be statesmen consistently insist that the correct response to any North Korean behaviour, comparatively tame or psychotically violent, is restraint by us. Is it not clear that the North Korean regime does not react well to restraint?

It may be objected with some justice that Pyongyang doesn't react well to anything, but, if it did, it wouldn't be to empty words or carefully harmless sanctions. That tyrannically insane government couldn't care less if the country's entire population starved to death, and they laugh at our reproaches. So what impact are mild sanctions or hollow condemnations meant to have? In short, Western policy toward North Korea is in substance (or lack thereof) driven by assumptions with nothing to recommend them except the difficulty of seeing what to do if they are unfounded.

When it comes to the People's Republic of China, the problem is considerably more acute because China is both stronger and less clearly insane (though Hitler was pretty obviously demented and people didn't let it affect their judgment that he was reasonable). But China is unlikely to be a useful partner in reining in North Korea because the Chinese are its strongest backer. And they are its strongest backer because....

Oh dear. How very many unpleasant ways there are of finishing that sentence and how few pleasant ones. So we assume that China's rulers have limited, reasonable geopolitical ambitions and a fundamentally peaceful diplomatic orientation not because anything they ever do supports that assumption, but because it is difficult to see what to do if they are really totally different kinds of people.

My ruminations on this disquieting subject earlier this week were rudely interrupted by the latest news that Israeli efforts to inspect a convoy headed for Gaza resulted in pacifists attacking IDF members with clubs, knives and guns and getting shot.

Now it is perfectly obvious that Israel is not going to permit uninspected cargoes to enter Gaza and it is obvious why: Gaza is ruled by Hamas, which is sworn not only to destroy Israel, but also to exterminate Jews. (See, again, Article 7 of the Hamas Charter, where rocks and trees erupt in anti-Semitic fury.) No one but Israel would ever be asked to let such an entity import uninspected cargoes for murderous purposes; not only would Canada not permit it under similar circumstances, but also we would not ask Syria to stand for it, or North Korea.

Admit it. If a convoy of activists insisted on bringing uninspected cargoes into North Korea, attacked customs officials who tried to inspect them and got killed, there would be no outcry. We'd soberly note that nations have a right to protect their borders, urge restraint, and perhaps make a grovelling submission to the Chinese government to help us persuade North Korea to shoot the next bunch with smaller calibre weapons.

So what's the deal with Hamas? Why does the press insist on running headlines like "After deadly raid, Israel stands alone" and "Israel's alliances hit the hardest" and "Bloody Israeli raid on flotilla sparks crisis"? I'll tell you. It's because Western diplomats, politicians and journalists pass over Hamas's ravings and members of the convoy chanting about Muhammad's army coming to kill Jews and insist on regarding Hamas as an organization that will make bargains and stick to them because it is very difficult to see what to do otherwise.

So what do we learn from history? So little that, if Hitler did demand the Sudetenland again, we'd probably give it to him.

John Robson's column appears weekly.
© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:55 AM

"My ruminations on this disquieting subject earlier this week were rudely interrupted by the latest news that Israeli efforts to inspect a convoy headed for Gaza resulted in pacifists attacking IDF members with clubs, knives and guns and getting shot."

Except that there is no evidence that there were any knives or guns.

"Admit it. If a convoy of activists insisted on bringing uninspected cargoes into North Korea, attacked customs officials who tried to inspect them and got killed, there would be no outcry."

The activists and ships were inspected by customs officials in Turkey.

If there had been any attempt to attack Turkish or Israeli customs officials the flotilla would have loast all credibility.

So I for one will not agree with this bullshit assertion.

Lets see what US ambassador Edward Peck has to say on the subject ...

            Peck


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 07:59 AM

Does everyone understand the concept of 'going off at a tangent', that is, prevaricating on all sorts of associated issues leading away from the main topic [aka thread drift]?

********

For me [& I imagine lots others], the ultimate here & now situation is this:

Thousands of innocent civilians in the Gaza Strip are being starved of food, medical supplies & other items necessary to maintain a reasonable quality of life.

Attempts by aid orgs to alleviate the situation are being thwarted, confounded by the militaristic Israeli Empire builders [& I don't say that in any flippant or cynical way] who're backed by US & therefore can continue like this with the protection of Uncle Sam O'Bama & his govt.


Surely, we should be discussing & making suggestions as to how the situation can be addessed.

That's another 2pennyworth, I'll get me poncho!!


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:06 AM

Mr Happy, you are right.

Unfortunately, unless red herrings are caught and shown to be the irrelevant distractions that they are, they can always be used to bolster preconceptions and prejudices.

This can take time, but it is a chore that does have to be done.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:25 AM

re Rationalizing homicidal aggression
By John Robson, The Ottawa CitizenJune 4, 2010

This is John Robson, described as a 'conservative's conservative' writing for the Ottawa Citizen - part of the CanWest Global empire whose unconditional support for the Israeli governments actions and censorship of any dissenting journalistic view has been discussed elsewhere in this thread.

'nuff said!


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:31 AM

If the state of Israel was handed over to the Palestinians ... what would the outcome and fate be for the current Jewish inhabitants?

Would this Palestinian state be a democracy?

Curious as what everyone would answer to these questions?

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: freda underhill
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:39 AM

CarolC, it was an Australian photographer, Kate Geraghty, who hid The photos they didn't want seen in her underwear:

"Four assault boats full of soldiers were chasing us and I knew they would board. I knew I just had to shoot as much as I could. With satellite communication jammed there was no way to transmit the images so I used gaffer tape to hide the micro SD cards on my body and in my clothes.

Most of the Israeli boats sped away but a Zodiac stopped beside our boat and the commandos boarded. I was knocked to the ground, perhaps by a stun gun. I got up and a soldier lunged towards me and snatched my camera. Despite numerous searches, including a strip search, I saved three cards. The Israelis found three in my clothing, but I hung on to the others - two on my body and one in some personal gear"

freda


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:51 AM

Bill - are you referring to a 'one state solution' for Palentinians and Jews?

"Proponents of a binational solution to the conflict advocate a single state in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza Strip, with citizenship and equal rights in the combined entity for all inhabitants of all three territories, without regard to ethnicity or religion."
Wiki

Israeli opponents argue that one state would erode the notion of Israel as a Jewish state.
The main obstacle is the fact that demographic trends show the likelihood of a near-term majority Arab population west of the Jordan River (including the land within the internationally recognized borders of the state of Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza).

Polls have shown that the probability that Palestinians would constitute an electoral majority in a binational state is seen by many Israeli Jews as a threat to the very premise of Israel, which is imagined as a state for the Jews

One-state solution a pipedream
Thought provoking, balanced article in the Jewish press by Ray Hanania (an Arab-American journalist also known for his stand-up comedy) who describes himself as a 'moderate Palestinian'


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:52 AM

Religion's not one've my religions, therefore I wait with baited breath to see world reaction to Rachel Corrie's progress, while strongly hoping, mentalising good wishes & bon voyage to the brave folks manning her [call it secular prayer?]


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: number 6
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 09:00 AM

Emma .... what I'm asking here is for posters to this thread what they would see as the outcome 'if' ... please no links, just your answers

or ... what you feel the solution would be to all of this, and what you foresee of the solution's outcome .. again please no ever ending links.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 09:04 AM

"This is John Robson, described as a 'conservative's conservative' writing for the Ottawa Citizen - part of the CanWest Global empire whose unconditional support for the Israeli governments actions and censorship of any dissenting journalistic view has been discussed elsewhere in this thread.

'nuff said!"

If you can't refute the content attack the source - weak and pathetic.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: freda underhill
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 09:11 AM

Haaretz, one of the two main papers in Israel, has articles with a lot of soul searching about Israel government knee-jerk responses in justifying the atrocities.
I too did not speak out


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: freda underhill
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 09:19 AM

This is a very good article
about the legalities of what happened by Associate Professor Ben Saul of the Sydney Centre for International Law at The University of Sydney. Dr Saul teaches the law of armed conflict and has been involved in such cases in The Hague, the Israeli Supreme Court, and in the Balibo coronial inquest.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 09:24 AM

Just attempting to clarify No 6 what you actually meant by the rather disingenuous question

"If the state of Israel was handed over to the Palestinians?"

If you want my personal point of view then, it is somewhat in line with the article I linked
- which btw, I hoped would open up the discussion a little beyond simplistic and completely unrealistic (not to mention somewhat provocative sounding) 'what if' scenarios!

That is to say that, some time ago, I would have been on the side of a binational solution to the apparently intractable but accept that this is no longer a realitic proposal and would like to know more about the possibilitiy of a two state solution although the arguments for this from Blair, Bush, Condoleezza Rice etc don't particularly impress me

However, I will retain the right to reply as I please and not how you wish to 'dictate' Bill, without apology, and post the argument for by Noam Chomsky, PhD, Professor of Linguistics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, in a Mar. 30, 2004 ZNet interview which does convince me to this 'solution' at the present time.

"In the short term, the only feasible and minimally decent solution is along the lines of the international consensus that the US has unilaterally blocked for the last 30 years: a two-state settlement on the international border (green line), with 'minor and mutual adjustments,' in the terms of official US policy, though not actual policy after 1971...
Perhaps in the longer term, as hostility and fear subside and relations are more firmly developed along non-national lines, there will be a possibility of moving towards a federal version of binationalism, then perhaps on to closer integration, perhaps even to a democratic secular state
-- though it is far from obvious that that is the optimal arrangement for complex societies, there or elsewhere."


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 09:35 AM

"If you can't refute the content attack the source - weak and pathetic."

I apply the same principle to being informed by the UK paper, The Daily Mail, that scores of Polish immigrants at various locations are trapping and BBQ'ing swans and that Christmas decorations have been banned so as not to offend non christians

Sorry for the 'aside' folks


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 10:10 AM

Well Emma, here's another editorial from the same newspaper which, according to your criteria, is dismissible due to lack of cedibility.

They Shouldn't Have Been There

Israel's soldiers may have acted in self-defence, but boarding a flotilla of aid ships on the high seas violated international law

By Michael Byers, Citizen Special June 3, 2010 Comments (3)


Israel probably regrets its decision to interdict a flotilla of six ships from NATO countries. But instead of apologizing unconditionally, it argues that its soldiers were justified in using lethal force to defend themselves after they had boarded the Turkish-registered Mavi Marmara.

By focusing on this narrow issue, Israel is distracting attention away from the necessary, preliminary question of whether the soldiers had any right to be there in the first place, the answer to which turns on two different strands of international law.

Is the blockade legal?

The interdiction was intended to enforce the three-year long blockade of Gaza, a policy of questionable legality under international humanitarian law -- the so-called jus in bello governing the conduct of armed conflict.

The issue here is not whether blockades in general are legal, but whether this particular blockade -- which extends to most civilian goods and thus has serious affects on non-belligerents --goes too far.

Last year, the UN Human Rights Council asked Justice Richard Goldstone, the former chief prosecutor of the UN International Criminal Tribunals for the former Yugoslavia and for Rwanda, to investigate the matter.

Goldstone found that the blockade was a form of collective punishment directed against the population of Gaza, and thus a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention which Israel ratified in 1951.

Collective punishment is also prohibited under customary international law which applies even if, as Israel argues, it is no longer an occupying power in Gaza and therefore not constrained by the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Last November, UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon issued his own report, which also focused on the indiscriminate nature of the blockade and called for it to be lifted. He wrote: "In particular, the Government of Israel should allow unimpeded access to Gaza for humanitarian aid and the non-humanitarian goods needed for the reconstruction of properties and infrastructure."

If Goldstone and Ban are right, the Israeli blockade itself is illegal, and so, too, is any attempt to enforce it against ships carrying nothing more than humanitarian aid.

Does self-defence stretch this far?

Regardless of the legality of the blockade, Israel -- like all other countries -- has an inherent right of self-defence that is codified in Article 51 of the UN Charter. But the existence of this right does not mean that it extends to the use of force against foreign-flagged vessels in international waters when not carrying military supplies destined for a belligerent party.

Self-defence is an exception to the UN Charter's prohibition on the use or threat of force against the "territorial integrity or political independence" of nation-states. As an exception, the right of self-defence must be narrowly construed -- especially when it runs up against other, fundamental rights.

In international law, ships are treated as an extension of the territory of their state of registry. Beyond 12 nautical miles from shore, they exercise one of the oldest rights in international law, namely the freedom of navigation on the high seas.

Self defence is also limited by requirements of necessity and proportionality. For this reason, we must ask whether the Israel Defence Forces acted in a necessary and proportionate way in boarding the vessels -- before they came into contact with the passengers.

Israel has indicted ships in international waters before. In 2002, it seized the Karine A, a freighter in the Red Sea laden with 50 tons of Iranian-made weaponry. But Monday's incident was different, since nobody is suggesting that the ships were carrying munitions to Hamas.

Israeli officials have claimed that the flotilla was opening the floodgates for further blockade-breaking. But although there is legitimate debate about whether the right of self-defence extends to pre-emption, the causal links here are tenuous at best.

The threat was not "instant, overwhelming, leaving no choice of means, and no moment of deliberation" -- which is the centuries-old test for necessity.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says the Israeli soldiers boarded the ship to check it for weapons, but you do not board for this purpose by surprise in the dark of night.

The true motive for the interdiction was revealed by Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman last Friday, when he said that the aid mission was a "violent provocation" that his country was ready to stop "at any cost."

There were other options. Israel could have diplomatically engaged Turkey, arranged for a third party to verify the absence of munitions, and then peacefully escorted the flotilla to Gaza. Such an approach would have done more for its long-term security than this illegal action in support of an indiscriminate and therefore illegitimate blockade.

Michael Byers holds the Canada Research Chair in Global Politics and International Law at the University of British Columbia. In 2004, he was a visiting professor of law at the University of Tel Aviv.
© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen

Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/life/They+shouldn+have+been+there/3104730/story.html#ixzz0ptPetsJE


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Mr Happy
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 10:29 AM

Rachel Corrie news here:


Meanwhile, the MV Rachel Corrie aid ship is heading towards the coast of Gaza, aiming to break the Israeli blockade.

Activists on board told the BBC's Andrew North in Jerusalem by telephone that they were about 150 miles (240km) away and aimed to arrive just outside Israel's 20-mile (30km) exclusion zone off Gaza by Saturday morning.

They said there were 20 people on board, including five Irish nationals, six Malaysians and nine crew members.

One of the activists, former Nobel peace prize winner Mairead Corrigan Maguire, said their humanitarian aid shipment included cement and construction materials - items banned by Israel.

Israel has made it clear it will not allow the ship - named after a US college student who was crushed to death by an Israeli army bulldozer as she protested about house demolitions in Gaza - to dock in the Palestinian territory.

The Israeli government has instead offered to take the aid in by land, once it has checked there is nothing in the shipment that can be used for weapons.

********

Above excerpt from BBC here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10236884.stm


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 11:01 AM

There is no such country as "The Jewish State". IT DOES NOT EXIST

Netanyahu, 2 June 2010: "The Jewish state has a right to defend itself"

"Jerusalem, Apr. 19 [2009] (ANI): The Palestinian Authority and the Hamas have rejected Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu's precondition for peace talks that the Palestinians recognize his country as a Jewish state."

Oh, whom to believe?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 11:01 AM

It has become obvious that Israel is not about to engage in diplomatic relations with any country that opposes its policies. The old Ben-Gurion Zionism is dead. The new Zionism
is totalitarian and obtuse.

The US media is culpable for transmitting Israel's lies.

The Shas Party of Jewish Fundamentalists are in control of Likkud.

Israel is a theocracy.

Rahm Emanuel's father was a member of the Irgun.

Obama and Biden have been snowed by Israel. (Not to mention BP and Wall Street).

Disinvest in Israel now!


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 11:14 AM

Israel has been a theocracy for some time.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 11:24 AM

number6, from all of the information I have, and I have a lot of information from people in Palestine, if Israel were to be handed to the Palestinians, all of the Jews who wanted to remain there would be able to and those who didn't want to remain there would be able to leave. It would be a democratic state.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 11:36 AM

bobad, it has been proven, both through testimonies, and through the videographic evidence, that the Israelis were not acting in self-defense, that they were the ones who attacked first, and that the ships' passengers were the ones who were acting in self-defense. So that's all the rebuttal that is needed to your editorials.

By the way, those paint pellets that the Israeli government is pretending were all innocent, were full of paint and and glass fragments. The glass fragments caused serious soft tissue damage.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 11:56 AM

I don't remember if this was posted previously in this thread or not, but just in case it hasn't been, here it is...

Hamas renews offer to end fight if Israel withdraws


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 12:07 PM

But I wouldn't trust Hamas any farther than I trust Israel, which has a lot to do with human-powered ballistics.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 12:17 PM

Hamas has adhered to all of the ceasefires that it has agreed to including unilateral ones, mousethief. There is no reason not to trust Hamas. And whatever else you might want to say about them, their primary concern is the welfare of their people.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 12:34 PM

A bit more about Emily Henochowicz, the Jewish girl from America who lost her eye on Tuesday when Israeli police fired a teargas cylinder direct at protesters in Jerusalem.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 12:37 PM

"There is no reason not to trust Hamas. Their primary concern is the welfare of their people"

"If Israel were to be handed to the Palestinians, all of the Jews who wanted to remain there would be able to and those who didn't want to remain there would be able to leave. It would be a democratic state"

CarolC, whether you don't know what you are talking about, or you have political reasons to pretend you're blind. It is not a matter of different ideas, but of basic perception of the situation.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 12:37 PM

"Hamas has adhered to all of the ceasefires that it has agreed to including unilateral ones, mousethief. There is no reason not to trust Hamas. And whatever else you might want to say about them, their primary concern is the welfare of their people. "


Right. (sarcastic remark)


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 12:38 PM

Hamas hasn't done a lot to stop rocket-launchers.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:05 PM

Oh well while it's ok to post newspaper articles in their entirity here is one from The Idependent**

Wednesday, 2 June 2010
"Of course, they were asking for it"
Mark Steel

It's time the Israeli government's PR team made the most of its talents, and became available for hire. Then whenever a nutcase marched into a shopping mall in somewhere like Wisconsin and gunned down a selection of passers-by, they could be on hand to tell the world's press "The gunman regrets the loss of life but did all he could to avoid violence."
Then various governments would issue statements saying "All we know is a man went berserk with an AK 47, and next to him there's a pile of corpses, so until we know the facts we can't pass judgement on what took place."

To strengthen their case the Israelis have released a photo of the weapons they found on board, (which amount to some knives and tools and wooden sticks) that the naive might think you'd expect to find on any ship, but the more astute will recognise as exactly what you'd carry if you were planning to defeat the Israeli army.
It's an armoury smaller than you'd find in the average toolshed in a garden in Cirencester, which goes to show the Israelis had better destroy Cirencester quickly as an essential act of self-defence.

It's a shame they weren't more imaginative, as they could have said "We also discovered a deadly barometer, a ship's compass, which could not only be frisbeed at someone's head but even had markings to help the assailant know which direction he was throwing it, and a set of binoculars that could easily be converted into a ray-gun."

That would be as logical as the statement from the Israeli PM's spokesman – "We made every possible effort to avoid this incident."

Because the one tiny thing they forgot to do to avoid this incident was not send in armed militia from helicopters in the middle of the night and shoot people.
I must be a natural at this sort of technique because I often go all day without climbing off a helicopter and shooting people, and I'm not even making every possible effort.

Politicians and commentators worldwide repeat a version of this line.
They're aware a nation has sent its militia to confront people carrying provisions for the desperate, in the process shooting several of them dead, and yet they angrily blame the dead ones.

One typical headline yesterday read "Activists got what they wanted – confrontation."
It's an attitude so deranged it deserves to be registered as a psychosis, something like "Reverse Slaughter Victim Confusion Syndrome".

Israel and its supporters claim that Viva Palestina, made up of people who collect the donated food, cement and items for providing basic amenities such as toilets, and transport them to Gaza, wanted the violence all along.
Because presumably they must have been thinking "Hezbollah couldn't beat them, but that's because unlike us they didn't have a ballcock and several boxes of plum tomatoes".

One article told us the flotilla was full of "Thugs spoiling for a confrontation", and then accused them of being "Less about aid and more about PR.
Indeed, on board was Swedish novelist Henning Mankell." So were they thugs or about PR? Did they have a thugs' section and a PR quarter, or did they all muck in, the novelist diverting the soldiers with his characterisation while the thugs attacked them with a lethal spirit level?

But some defenders of Israel are so blind to what happens in front of them there's nothing at all they wouldn't jump to defend. Israel could blow up a cats home and within five minutes they'd be yelling "How do we know the cats weren't smuggling semtex in their fur for Hamas?"

If this incident had been carried about by Iran, or anyone we were trying to portray as an enemy, so much condemnation would have been spewed out it would have created a vast cloud of outrage that airlines would be unable to fly through.

But as it's Israel, most governments offer a few diplomatic words that blame no one, but accept the deaths are "regrettable".
They might as well have picked any random word from the dictionary, so the news would tell us "William Hague described the deaths as 'hexagonal'", and a statement from the US senate said "It's all very confusing. In future let's hope they make every effort to avoid a similar incident."










one of the youngest UK national daily newspapers. The daily edition was named National Newspaper of the Year at the 2004 British Press Awards. Originally a broadsheet newspaper, since 2003 it has been published in a tabloid format. The Independent is regarded as leaning to the left politically, although it has not affiliated itself to any political party and a range of views can be found on its editorial and comment pages.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:05 PM

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5gowX__3_lydhbbod1bkCtlWMPf3g


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:07 PM

btw The Independent is one of the youngest UK national daily newspapers.
The daily edition was named National Newspaper of the Year at the 2004 British Press Awards.
The Independent is regarded as leaning to the left politically, although it has not affiliated itself to any political party and a range of views can be found on its editorial and comment pages.
- Wiki


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:07 PM

CarolC, whether you don't know what you are talking about, or you have political reasons to pretend you're blind. It is not a matter of different ideas, but of basic perception of the situation.

Roberto, it's quite obvious that I am far better informed than you are. Everything I have said is backed up with facts and evidence. You, apparently, have swallowed the propaganda.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:12 PM

mousethief, Hamas has done a lot to try to stop the rockets. Of course, it's efforts were hampered a bit when Israel massacred a couple of hundred of their police in the massacre of '08/'09. Kind of hard to keep order if all of your police have been blown to bits, and it seems like Israel must have wanted to make it difficult for Hamas to keep order, or they wouldn't have blown up all of those police. But all of that aside, what government has complete control of its people? The people who are firing the rockets are in opposition to Hamas, and they are doing it to undermine Hamas' efforts to bring a resolution to the situation. Hamas has adhered to every ceasefire they have agreed to, including the unilateral ones. This is a fact and is not disputable.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:15 PM

CarolC, your critical sense is so sharp when directed towards Israel and so dull when applied to Hamas. Far better informed: a self-appointed medal.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:16 PM

Roberto, snipes are not arguments. They are the absence of an argument.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:17 PM

http://imeu.net/news/article0019152.shtml#1


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:22 PM

Krauthammer: Those troublesome Jews


Charles Krauthammer
Friday, June 4, 2010

The world is outraged at Israel's blockade of Gaza. Turkey denounces its illegality, inhumanity, barbarity, etc. The usual U.N. suspects, Third World and European, join in. The Obama administration dithers.

But as Leslie Gelb, former president of the Council on Foreign Relations, writes, the blockade is not just perfectly rational, it is perfectly legal. Gaza under Hamas is a self-declared enemy of Israel -- a declaration backed up by more than 4,000 rockets fired at Israeli civilian territory. Yet having pledged itself to unceasing belligerency, Hamas claims victimhood when Israel imposes a blockade to prevent Hamas from arming itself with still more rockets.

In World War II, with full international legality, the United States blockaded Germany and Japan. And during the October 1962 missile crisis, we blockaded ("quarantined") Cuba. Arms-bearing Russian ships headed to Cuba turned back because the Soviets knew that the U.S. Navy would either board them or sink them. Yet Israel is accused of international criminality for doing precisely what John Kennedy did: impose a naval blockade to prevent a hostile state from acquiring lethal weaponry.

Oh, but weren't the Gaza-bound ships on a mission of humanitarian relief? No. Otherwise they would have accepted Israel's offer to bring their supplies to an Israeli port, be inspected for military materiel and have the rest trucked by Israel into Gaza -- as every week 10,000 tons of food, medicine and other humanitarian supplies are sent by Israel to Gaza.

Why was the offer refused? Because, as organizer Greta Berlin admitted, the flotilla was not about humanitarian relief but about breaking the blockade, i.e., ending Israel's inspection regime, which would mean unlimited shipping into Gaza and thus the unlimited arming of Hamas.

Israel has already twice intercepted ships laden with Iranian arms destined for Hezbollah and Gaza. What country would allow that?

But even more important, why did Israel even have to resort to blockade? Because, blockade is Israel's fallback as the world systematically de-legitimizes its traditional ways of defending itself -- forward and active defense.

(1) Forward defense: As a small, densely populated country surrounded by hostile states, Israel had, for its first half-century, adopted forward defense -- fighting wars on enemy territory (such as the Sinai and Golan Heights) rather than its own.

Where possible (Sinai, for example) Israel has traded territory for peace. But where peace offers were refused, Israel retained the territory as a protective buffer zone. Thus Israel retained a small strip of southern Lebanon to protect the villages of northern Israel. And it took many losses in Gaza, rather than expose Israeli border towns to Palestinian terror attacks. It is for the same reason America wages a grinding war in Afghanistan: You fight them there, so you don't have to fight them here.

But under overwhelming outside pressure, Israel gave it up. The Israelis were told the occupations were not just illegal but at the root of the anti-Israel insurgencies -- and therefore withdrawal, by removing the cause, would bring peace.

Land for peace. Remember? Well, during the past decade, Israel gave the land -- evacuating South Lebanon in 2000 and Gaza in 2005. What did it get? An intensification of belligerency, heavy militarization of the enemy side, multiple kidnappings, cross-border attacks and, from Gaza, years of unrelenting rocket attack.

(2) Active defense: Israel then had to switch to active defense -- military action to disrupt, dismantle and defeat (to borrow President Obama's description of our campaign against the Taliban and al-Qaeda) the newly armed terrorist mini-states established in southern Lebanon and Gaza after Israel withdrew.

The result? The Lebanon war of 2006 and Gaza operation of 2008-09. They were met with yet another avalanche of opprobrium and calumny by the same international community that had demanded the land-for-peace Israeli withdrawals in the first place. Worse, the U.N. Goldstone report, which essentially criminalized Israel's defensive operation in Gaza while whitewashing the casus belli -- the preceding and unprovoked Hamas rocket war -- effectively de-legitimized any active Israeli defense against its self-declared terror enemies.

(3) Passive defense: Without forward or active defense, Israel is left with but the most passive and benign of all defenses -- a blockade to simply prevent enemy rearmament. Yet, as we speak, this too is headed for international de-legitimation. Even the United States is now moving toward having it abolished.

But, if none of these is permissible, what's left?

Ah, but that's the point. It's the point understood by the blockade-busting flotilla of useful idiots and terror sympathizers, by the Turkish front organization that funded it, by the automatic anti-Israel Third World chorus at the United Nations, and by the supine Europeans who've had quite enough of the Jewish problem.

What's left? Nothing. The whole point of this relentless international campaign is to deprive Israel of any legitimate form of self-defense. Why, just last week, the Obama administration joined the jackals, and reversed four decades of U.S. practice, by signing onto a consensus document that singles out Israel's possession of nuclear weapons -- thus de-legitimizing Israel's very last line of defense: deterrence.

The world is tired of these troublesome Jews, 6 million -- that number again -- hard by the Mediterranean, refusing every invitation to national suicide. For which they are relentlessly demonized, ghettoized and constrained from defending themselves, even as the more committed anti-Zionists -- Iranian in particular -- openly prepare a more final solution.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:29 PM

Jon Stewart (a "troublesome Jew") on Charles Krauthammer


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:33 PM

"If you can't refute the content attack the source - weak and pathetic."


So he is right about the statements of fact, since you can only attack the writer?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:39 PM

The Australian
June 2nd

"ISRAEL'S murder of the human rights activists on the MV Samoud on Monday brings into focus its policy of disregard for human lives and disrespect for international laws and conventions. This policy has been a product of world apathy to the plight of the Palestinians and US blanket support for Israeli actions.

The policy, best described as "shoot first and explain later", is heavily reliant on a well-funded PR department (Hasbara) in the Israeli government. However, the real support for this policy comes from Western governments, including our own, which have provided support and excuses for Israel's actions in the past and today have to share part of the blame for the killing of innocent civilians.

Israel's policy has been practised on a daily basis in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Much of these activities rarely get a mention in the world media. However, the spectacular events and civilian casualties during the war on Lebanon in 2006, the war on the Gaza Strip in 2008 and the killing of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh in Dubai were well covered in the media. These violations of human rights were hardly investigated, and Israel did not pay any price for its blatant disregard of international law. If anything, these wars have provided testing grounds for Israel's weapons and the footage has been used to sell more arms to the world. One wonders, should not the world community feel responsible for the deaths of those civilians?

Many in Palestine and the Arab world have been calling on the world not to apply double standards when it comes to Israel. Yet many governments, mainly for financial reasons, have found a populist spin to sell to their constituencies to justify the Israeli actions. However, it has become clear the tide is turning and governments that support Israel are running thin on the ground to justify intentional, vicious aggression that violates every norm in our society. Those governments and individuals have to shoulder their responsibility for Israel's latest act.

The world has reacted angrily to the Gaza flotilla events and so it should. It should also express harsher sentiments on the three-year blockade of the Gaza Strip, which amounts to collective punishment forbidden under international law. It is likely, too, that Israel will pay a small price in the short term for its actions. These condemnations are symbolic only and are ineffective in the long term. They need to be followed by decisive actions that will send a message to Israel that the world is not willing to tolerate this any more.

Not only governments have responsibility to act but also every individual who feels compelled to react to this needless aggression and loss of lives. The nonviolent Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions of Israeli products and institutions campaign has been in place for a few years. It empowers every citizen in the world to express disgust at Israel's action.

The Australian government has described Israel's action as deplorable and called for a full investigation. Although this is commendable, the Australian people should demand Australia reassess its close ties with Israel. On the day the government sent ASIO officers to Israel to investigate the passport forging affair, Australia signed a $250 million arms deal with Israel. This speaks volumes on the real relationship with Israel.

The Australian government and others across the world should endorse the BDS campaign, as they did with South Africa, and demand that Israel end the blockade of the Gaza Strip, agree to a UN peacekeeping force, dismantle the illegal settlements and the apartheid wall and enter into immediate and serious negotiations to end this 62-year conflict.

Inaction will be interpreted as an endorsement for Israel's act and a caveat for its next atrocity"


Well now we could go on posting excerpts from the Press ad infinitum - even take a straw poll to detirmine which countries regard the attack and killings on the Flotilla as illegal

Oh, I'm sorry, that would be 'the usual suspects' - The UN, Europe etc.....


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:40 PM

This is for you, Roberto.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpMpHgw7yVk


beardedbruce, are you trying to make it look like that quote in your post there is from me?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:43 PM

...or are you doing that thing again where you act like you think that everyone who is on the other side of an argument from you is a part of a borg collective, so it doesn't really matter which one of us says what?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:49 PM

I did not intend to imply that YOU had made the statement- but are you saying it is NOT true?

If that is the case, you had best not complain about personnal attacks, since you are useing them as opposed to a debate on the facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:51 PM

By the way, I will use as precedent in my argument in response to Krauthammer, who is not a troublesome Jew, but rather, a troublesome fascist, that Israel attacked Egypt because of a naval blockade. If it was illegal for Egypt to blockade Israel, and if Israel was justified in attacking Egypt because of it, Israel really can't then turn around and say that its own blockade is not an act of war that is subject to defensive action. What's good for the goose...


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:52 PM

I don't think he's attacking Krauthammer, beardedbruce. I think he's attacking Krauthammer's lies. Big difference there.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 02:13 PM

Carol, BB is repeating a remark addressed to me as I earlier questioned whether a report in a paper which was part of a group dedicated to unconditionally supporting Israeli government actions could/should possibly be regarded as just a teensey weensey itty bitty biased.

I can only reply, as I did previously 04 Jun 10 - 09:35 AM, that I apply the same principles to one of our own UK papers which has a very obvious agenda too.
Strangely, I don't consider querying the objectivity of any source 'weak and pathetic' although sometimes it appears as rare as hens teeth

and btw - I wasn't 'attacking' the source just pointing out as I did for the article I quoted from The Independent

"Of course they were asking for it" 04 Jun 10 - 01:05 PM

the 'political' stance of the source.

Now maybe we can drop the personal insults and return to the topic?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 02:13 PM

Ok, I'll rephrase, just for you. I think he is attacking what he would suggest are the gross inaccuracies in Krauthamer's assessment of the situation.

Krauthammer, though, is attacking everyone with whom he doesn't agree with his insinuation that they regard Jews as being troublesome. It's certainly an oblique character assassination, but it is a character assassination nevertheless, and since you are endorsing his words, that means that you are also making this character assassination yourself. So you're really not in a position to be pointing fingers about attacking the messenger rather than the message.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 02:14 PM

Crossposted, Emma. But he was using your words against me.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 02:30 PM

So I've got some questions for the hasbaristas in this thread. Please show me the law(s) under which Israel claims the right to impose this blockade on Gaza. And please cite the specific language in the law(s) that pertain to this specific case.

And if the law(s) pertain to the rights of belligerents in a war situation, please show me the parts that specify the rights of both sides. That is to say, what right does a country have to enforce a blockade, and what rights do a country have to defend itself against a blockade.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 02:41 PM

The Irish relief vessel is on the way.

Will more be killed?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 02:56 PM

I've been trying to find a live feed from the ship, but so far no luck. I saw a report that the ship had recently been outfitted with camera and satellite equipment so that it could document what happens and broadcast a live feed. I also saw, a couple of hours ago, a report saying that the Israelis had already blocked the satellite. I don't know if this is accurate or not. If anyone has any further information, I would be grateful.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 03:53 PM

Krauthammer? Really? Where's that "cracking up laughing" smiley?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 04:20 PM

Jewish boat to Gaza sailing in July


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 04:21 PM

The Rachel Corrie's cargo


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Roberto
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 04:34 PM

At the demonstration tonight in Rome, Arab children shouting murderers against Israel. Two days ago, the demonstration in praise of the flottilla with activists shouting murderers at the Jew peole in Rome's ghetto. I'll never support such shame.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 04:41 PM

It's so sad - Grown men chanting murder against the flotilla members in Israel and yelling that it was a 'crime' that they weren't all shot; then manhandling the young female reporter who filmed them!

Yes makes you ashamed to be human at times


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 04:53 PM

Some people are generalizing to all Jews the criticism that should only be leveled to the people who are committing the acts of oppression, and that's wrong, and whenever we see that happening, we need to speak out against it (and believe me, I spend a lot of my day doing just that).

However, there are just as many people in Israel who are shouting things like "death to the Arabs" and other equally wrong and horrific things. I don't think you serve your arguments very well by singling out only one side of that problem for your condemnation or trying to smear the entire Palestinian rights movement or all Arabs because of the behavior of some people in those groups. Just as it would not serve my arguments if I were to only condemn the behavior of those Jews who are shouting things like "death to the Arabs" or to generalize that behavior to all Jews.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:06 PM

The government of Israel didn't just steal the aid from the flotilla. They have also stolen all of the personal belongings of the flotilla members except for the clothes they were wearing when they were kidnapped. That is cellphones, computers, ipads, clothing, money, and everything else they had with them. The dollar value of this theft is enormous.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:17 PM

The Rachel Corrie, an Irish ship, is Malaysian funded by Mahatir Mohamad, the country's former prime minister.
Anifah Aman, Malaysia's foreign affairs minister, said in a statement issued late on Thursday that the Israeli authorities should insure a safe passage for the vessel to Gaza to deliver the humanitarian cargo.
Mairead Corrigan, a Nobel Peace Laureate, is aboard.

Brian Cowen, the Irish prime minister, asked Israel to permit the Irish-owned aid ship, named after an American woman killed by an Israeli bulldozer trying to prevent a house demolition.

The vessel carries cement, a material banned from entering Gaza, in addition to medical and school equipment.

http:/english.aljazeera.net, June 4.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:27 PM

sorry to lower the tone here but on an earlier radio comedy approach to the weeks news tonight it was suggested that the Israelis could be called 'anti cementic'

If you didn't laugh occasionally; you'd weep


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:28 PM

OK CarolC
Can we see your clear statement that people who say carry signs and chant "Death to Israelis", "Dealt to Jews", "Death to Arabs" and Death to Muslims" all as equally wrong....I will even throw in "Death to Americans and America, which also seems to come up now and then"


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:34 PM

Absolutely, Ed. This is what I have said already several times today when I have encountered such behavior on Facebook...

"The young woman who recently lost her eye when she was shot in the face with a tear gas canister by the Israeli border police is Jewish. She paid a much heavier price on behalf of the Palestinian cause than most of us posting to pages like this one. Many Jews pay a much bigger price for their activism than most people because they are isolated from and condemned by their community and often even by their families. We need their help, and they deserve our respect.

We are not fighting "the Jews". We are fighting oppression."


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: mousethief
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:35 PM

Emma B: I like it!


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:39 PM

A little bit of that cement came from me. I had hoped that it would help to keep some Palestinian family warm next winter.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:41 PM

"It feel good when all the hate is gone towards those and actions you don't like. It can be an eye opener, a mind opener, a heart opener, and and take a weight from your shoulders"
Quote, source unknown.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:53 PM

""If the state of Israel was handed over to the Palestinians ... what would the outcome and fate be for the current Jewish inhabitants?

Would this Palestinian state be a democracy?

Curious as what everyone would answer to these questions?
""

Several answers spring to mind:-

1. If my aunt had bollocks she'd be my uncle.
2. This kind of hypothetical question is unanswerable.
3. The question is not germane to the topic, as it seems unlikely that Gaza will ever be in a position to blockade Israel, much less mount an illegal pirate attack on a US ship delivering goods to Israel.

So, if you have no more questions on that subject, can we get back to the realms of reality?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:02 PM

Some of us never had any hate, Ed. No more than the people who were fighting for the rights of African Americans in the US South during segregation, or the people fighting apartheid in South Africa. When oppression and injustice is the order of the day, it is the duty of people of conscience to do everything we can to bring it to an end, especially those of us who are being made complicit through the use of our tax dollars by the oppressors.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:05 PM

Does nobody have an answer to my questions?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:10 PM

It looks as if at least one word, and maybe more, are missed out from that quote Ed posted.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:14 PM

"Some of us never had any hate"
The intent is good. But, though opossibly not intended,words, if not carefully structured, can incite hate.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:17 PM

....and, there is plenty of hate in the world....and in the Middle East...where what happened hundreds or thousands of years ago...are fresh issues today. Hopefully, we do not get swept into that.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:18 PM

I wish to claim the title of "king of mudcat typos"...if the claim has not been made before:)


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:23 PM

The intent is good. But, though opossibly not intended,words, if not carefully structured, can incite hate.

Ed, if you are accusing me of not being careful in my speech in reference to groups of people, such as Jews, then I think you had better provide some evidence of it, because I take it to be a libel. And I would suggest taking a good look at some of your own posts.

And by the way, I also posted a criticism of an anti-Semitic remark right here in this thread, similar to the one I quoted for you. But it was deleted by the moderators along with the anti-Semitic remark.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:28 PM

Sorry...Carol C, I won't take the bait....and get in an argument...which is easy to do:) I accused you of nothing. Any accusation is in your mind. If it is there (and it's for you to decide)...that's your issue to deal with, not mine.

With all respects to your opinions...and, to nme they are just that....no more value than anyone else's on Mudcat, or in the happy world we live in.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:33 PM

You know, one thing that really burns my britches about a lot of the people here in the Mudcat, and is one of the reasons I find myself spending less and less time here (except for this one thread, which is incredibly important, as far as I'm concerned), is because of the hypocrisy of people like Ed, who insinuate that people who stand up for human rights for all are inciting hatred, while they say nothing whatever about all of the overt racism that is expressed towards Muslims and Arabs right here in the Mudcat and in the larger societal context. There's no excuse for that. It's just racism, pure and simple. Don't speak up for the people who are being brutally oppressed because if you do, you might spread hatred towards those who are oppressing them. Bullshit!


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:33 PM

"I wish to claim the title of "king of mudcat typos"...if the claim has not been made before:) "

Ed, 'when you are king dilly dilly, I will be queen' :)


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:35 PM

Oh, come off it, Ed. This isn't just an insinuation, it's an accusation. Whose intent are you talking about then? You said it in response to what I said about myself.

The intent is good. But, though opossibly not intended,words, if not carefully structured, can incite hate.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:44 PM

That quote Ed gave seemed to suggest that hating actions us the same as hating people(though it's hard to tell, since something was wrong with it: ...towards those and actions...??).

I'd suggest that though hating people is always a waste of energy, hating actions is not necessarily so.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:45 PM

And don't try to deny your double standard, Ed. Where was your criticism of Roberto's failure to differentiate the behavior of some Arabs and Palestinian rights activists, and that of the groups as a whole? That's right. You only came after me even though I'm not the one who was generalizing about any groups at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:49 PM

Most Mudfolks dont dare to tread into one sided arguments on Mudcat...because there are traps to be sprung and they get baited and speared by all those claiming to represent "right perspective" on a thread title and an issue....but actually represent only "like thinking" folks that venture there...and are not really interested in debate, or meaningful consideration to an oposing view.   

I have been around life long enmough to recognise it, and not get drawn into it. A look at who has dominated the discussion, is telling as to what has been discussed here. I expect most reasoned mudfolks will avoid this thread...as most of the stuff has been debated and said beforew here anyway. I doubt if any opinions will be influenced by anything anyone has to post...logical, questioning, less logical..because the thread is not one seeking perspective...it is one seeking acceptance of a preconceived opinion...right or wrong.

And here si a big smile:) because efforts to discredit opposing views through bully tactics (male or female) don't work with me.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:51 PM

Like your arguments aren't one sided, Ed. Fat chance. Give it up. You're just baiting people now.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:51 PM

Sorry CarolC, I did not see Roberto's comments to refer to him equally. I am just a bad boy, without ethical principles (and principals, being a typo king).


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:52 PM

So let's put you in the hot seat, then, Ed. Where is your criticism of Roberto's post?


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Emma B
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:53 PM

ok Sorry Carol I didn't mean to be flippant I abhor the racism and Islamophobia I've encountered here too.

While I am encouraged to see that some posters condemn the actions of the Israeli government who ordered this attack I was appalled to hear an aquaintance rail about the infamy of 'World Jewry' this last weekend.

Two wrongs have never made a right and I am concerned about the increasing polarization and frankly, hatred, that this necessary humanitarian effort has provoked.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:57 PM

I wasn't thinking about you when I said that, Emma. I'm not sure what you said that you are referring to.


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Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: