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BS: Thomas Jefferson

olddude 03 Jun 10 - 04:41 PM
olddude 03 Jun 10 - 04:47 PM
kendall 03 Jun 10 - 05:15 PM
Rapparee 03 Jun 10 - 05:18 PM
Donuel 03 Jun 10 - 05:19 PM
Melissa 03 Jun 10 - 05:20 PM
pdq 03 Jun 10 - 05:39 PM
Amos 03 Jun 10 - 06:30 PM
Ebbie 03 Jun 10 - 06:34 PM
gnu 03 Jun 10 - 06:41 PM
Greg F. 03 Jun 10 - 06:52 PM
Amos 03 Jun 10 - 08:06 PM
Ed T 03 Jun 10 - 08:27 PM
olddude 03 Jun 10 - 08:29 PM
artbrooks 03 Jun 10 - 08:42 PM
Arkie 03 Jun 10 - 08:45 PM
Amos 03 Jun 10 - 08:50 PM
olddude 03 Jun 10 - 08:56 PM
Ebbie 03 Jun 10 - 09:15 PM
Bobert 03 Jun 10 - 09:46 PM
Riginslinger 03 Jun 10 - 09:53 PM
olddude 03 Jun 10 - 09:54 PM
olddude 03 Jun 10 - 09:59 PM
Bobert 03 Jun 10 - 10:04 PM
Greg F. 03 Jun 10 - 10:33 PM
artbrooks 03 Jun 10 - 10:57 PM
Janie 03 Jun 10 - 10:59 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Jun 10 - 11:00 PM
Ed T 03 Jun 10 - 11:06 PM
olddude 03 Jun 10 - 11:59 PM
olddude 04 Jun 10 - 12:07 AM
olddude 04 Jun 10 - 12:17 AM
olddude 04 Jun 10 - 12:19 AM
olddude 04 Jun 10 - 12:23 AM
olddude 04 Jun 10 - 12:30 AM
Ebbie 04 Jun 10 - 12:41 AM
LadyJean 04 Jun 10 - 01:00 AM
olddude 04 Jun 10 - 01:01 AM
Ed T 04 Jun 10 - 06:03 AM
Ed T 04 Jun 10 - 06:15 AM
artbrooks 04 Jun 10 - 08:06 AM
olddude 04 Jun 10 - 08:30 AM
Greg F. 04 Jun 10 - 08:31 AM
olddude 04 Jun 10 - 08:36 AM
olddude 04 Jun 10 - 08:50 AM
GUEST,HiLo 04 Jun 10 - 09:47 AM
pdq 04 Jun 10 - 10:08 AM
Greg F. 04 Jun 10 - 10:13 AM
pdq 04 Jun 10 - 10:43 AM
Arkie 04 Jun 10 - 11:35 AM

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Subject: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: olddude
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 04:41 PM

ON my list of hero's in my life Thomas Jefferson is certainly at the top. Of the 56 years on this earth so far I have read about everything I could get my hands on. When my daughter was working for Hillary I would go to the archives and research ... one of the great geniuses history ever gave us.

Now I get an email from a group that puts out statements about how Jefferson would agree with the faith based movements etc..

I go crazy. Either there is a real attempt to distort history to its opposite extreme or they are so far from understanding that great man that they should go back to school..

So why am I starting this thread ... read Jefferson if you want to know what this country was founded for ... and it was everyone believe me.

Please read up on him

Dan


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: olddude
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 04:47 PM

And I did not start this thread to bash religion. I am very religious. I am a Christian .. but there is no place for Church in Government, NONE ..

I write this because people who live in this great country that know so little about a man who is responsible for starting it ... The founding fathers ... what they envisioned .. and now what people want to take away. The safeguards, the separations of power, the right of the minority ... the list goes on ... yet to try and do a 180 on this great man ... amazing ... and people buy into it without first taking a look ... under the hood of Thomas Jefferson is a very complex person .. his one goal .. to fight all forms of tyranny ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: kendall
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:15 PM

Tom and I have something in common. We are both Deists.

I have a friend who has studied Jefferson so thoroughly that he dons an 18th century outfit and pretends to be Jefferson as an act, a performance.
No question that he was one of America's greats.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:18 PM

Mah HEEro! Tom Jefferson!

"Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and to God that which is God's" is the basis of the separation of Church and State. I don't see why we don't tax religions -- the get the protection of the State, no?

I've always liked Ol' Tom. Great man, that one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:19 PM

Thomas Jefferson Clinton?

There is no THomas Jefferson founding father in the new Texas grade school textbooks BECAUSE he did insist upon seperation of church and state. He has become an inconveinient president for the religious right who so happened to be in control of most of the textbooks that will be printed and sold to other states in the coming years.

The Adams Jerfferson debates/letters will also be dropped from curriculum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: Melissa
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:20 PM

I haven't ever put any focused effort into studying Jefferson, but he does turn up a lot in things I DO put effort in and I am always impressed by how Big Thinking and sensible he was.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 05:39 PM

...figures from the Roman Catholic Church:

            6,511 elementary schools and 1,354 high schools,

                         with over 2.5 million students enrolled

            231 Catholic colleges and universities

                         with a total of 763,757 students

The RCC ranks second behind various branches of the government in education.

They get huge amounts of taxpayer money for their education services.

Does that violate the "separation of church and state"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 06:30 PM

Experience demands that man is the only animal which devours his own kind, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor.
Thomas Jefferson

Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.
Thomas Jefferson

Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.
Thomas Jefferson

For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well-organized and armed militia is their best security.
Thomas Jefferson

Force is the vital principle and immediate parent of despotism.
Thomas Jefferson

Friendship is but another name for an alliance with the follies and the misfortunes of others. Our own share of miseries is sufficient: why enter then as volunteers into those of another?
Thomas Jefferson


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 06:34 PM

Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin are the two men I would listen to on just about any subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: gnu
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 06:41 PM

"Experience demands that man is the only animal which devours his own kind, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor."

Indeed, the rich subjugate the poor.

"For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well-organized and armed militia is their best security."

Now, wouldn't that go (not so) well on a "gun law" thread? Kinda gives the anti-guns sommat to ponder, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 06:52 PM

TJ is kind of like the bible- if you search all of his works and take quotations out of context, you can make him seem to support damn near anything.

However, he did most certainly support the separation of church and state and stated so unequivocally. Also, I believe when asked about his religious affiliation he said he was a sect unto himself.

Is the e-mail distortion or ignorance or stupidity? Why can't it be all three? That triumverate seems to be a winning combination for the TeaBaggers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 08:06 PM

Ignorance and stupidity are close cousins to emotional distortion, reactivity, and a very muddy sense of reality. They go hand in hand.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 08:27 PM

Question:

Was Thomas Jefferson not a slave owner until his death, as a true politician advocated for both abolitionism and slavery's expansion, and frequently spoke of the supremacy of whites in the USA versus blacks?

Or, have I read the wrong history books?


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: olddude
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 08:29 PM

I had a guy today that if he was alive he would be a fundamentalist Christian ... I quoted from memory

I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789

I was told that I am a Liberal Elitist who buys into the socialist revision of history. He got all the buzz words didn't he.

Now there was a time in my life when I was not a peaceful , mild mannered Ex College Prof .. and in that stage he would have woke up from the floor from a roundhouse kick to the head from a certified black belt.

Today I just smile and say ... well ya better study a bit harder on American history.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 08:42 PM

Thomas Jefferson is listed multiple times in the new Texas curriculum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: Arkie
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 08:45 PM

Thomas Jefferson was indeed a wise and shrewd man who appreciated liberty and knew well the costs. He had also seen the damage that could be done from unrestrained power and wrote checks and balances into the Constitution for that reason. The more I read of Thomas Jefferson, the more I appreciate his wisdom and what he did for this country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 08:50 PM

In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
Thomas Jefferson


Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson

Believing that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State (Letter to the Danbury Baptists, 1802).

Religion is a subject on which I have ever been most scrupulously reserved. I have considered it as a matter between every man and his Maker in which no other, and far less the public, had a right to intermeddle (letter to Robert Rush, 1813).

I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling in religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises. This results not only from the provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment or free exercise of religion, but from that also which reserves to the states the powers not delegated to the United States. Certainly, no power to prescribe any religious exercise or to assume authority in religious discipline has been delegated to the General Government. It must rest with the States, as far as it can be in any human authority (letter to Samuel Miller, Jan. 23, 1808).


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: olddude
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 08:56 PM

And one Christian believer who will never stop thanking God for the wisdom of Thomas Jefferson ...

Thank you Amos, those are great quotes


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:15 PM

"Cynthia Dunbar, a lawyer from Richmond who is a strict constitutionalist and thinks the nation was founded on Christian beliefs, managed to cut Thomas Jefferson from a list of figures whose writings inspired revolutions in the late 18th century and 19th century, replacing him with St. Thomas Aquinas, John Calvin and William Blackstone. (Jefferson is not well liked among conservatives on the board because he coined the term "separation between church and state.")

Texas Curriculum 2010


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:46 PM

Well, ol' Tom was certainly a curious man and a busy man... He hung with Voltaire... He mananged a large plantation, Montecello which was way ahead it it's time in terms or management... He was a horticulturalist... He was a masterful architect... He was a deep thinker... Oh, and he was also one of the main authors of the Declaration of Independence... And 2nd Vice president and 3rd president of the United States...

And those just for starters...

Yeah, he had a few issues but who doesn't... He was a slave owner who believed in abolishing slavery... That kinda messed with him but he was in a pickle finacially and couldn't really do much about that situation...

But a great American story...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:53 PM

And contrary to what he might have said elsewhere, he proved Negroes were bonified people by generating off-spring with one or more African women.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: olddude
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:54 PM

Bob
he had a son to his slave mistress, that was suspected but not confirmed until 1997 or so. He also treated her like a wife , something that raised a lot of eyebrows at his time. No one however would dare call him on it ... History accounts that he really loved her. Cool thing, it was I think 1997 when her family had a DNA test against the known decedents of Jefferson and proved they were related. By their family accounts he was very much in love with her, and she him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: olddude
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 09:59 PM

They were all just men, lots of baggage like everyone else has, Good and bad. I guess Franklin's antics with the French women was legendary. We tend to put them into some mythical category ... but actually it was their genius and forward thinking that is so awe inspiring


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 10:04 PM

I know about that, Oldster... That's why I mentioned that he was an abolitionist... People gloss over that too much and zero on the fact that he owned slaves... The reason he owned slaves is that he himself was slave to his debts and used them as collaterial... I know... Strange arrangement but those were different times...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 10:33 PM

Was Thomas Jefferson not a slave owner until his death

Yes

as a true politician advocated for both abolitionism

Yes

and slavery's expansion

No

and frequently spoke of the supremacy of whites in the USA versus blacks?

Yes


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 10:57 PM

Ebbie, please see my link above. Jefferson is on the curriculum in, if I'm remembering correctly without rechecking it, 6th grade, 8th grade, and both high school social studies and government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: Janie
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 10:59 PM

I'm having a brain fart right now and can not remember the author of a fairly recent biography I read about John Adams (you know, the guy who has done a number of good biographies in recent years on several early American figures?) Anyhoo, he discussed Jefferson at length with respect to the relationship and correspondence between the two men. Fascinating and insightful.

As much as I like good biographies, especially those about our founding fathers, I am startled to realize I have not read a Thomas Jefferson biography. Which one would some of you be inclined to recommend?


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 11:00 PM

Quotes please. And in context.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 11:06 PM

"Colonization of African Americans to Africa began at the time of the Revolutionary War. In 1777, the Virginia legislature discussed Thomas Jefferson's proposal for the colonization of the state's free blacks".

"Shortly after the adoption of the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson and other prominent leaders of the Revolutionary era proposed colonization as a solution to the paradox of freedom and liberty in America".


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: olddude
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 11:59 PM

Janie
a short but real good bio of Jefferson is this book to start with

Bernstein

Dan


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: olddude
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 12:07 AM

Janie and his autobiography
http://www.amazon.com/Thomas-Jefferson-Writings-Autobiography-Addresses/dp/094045016X


writings and autobiography


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: olddude
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 12:17 AM

His policy on slavery is best describe I think here
Jefferson on Slavery


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: olddude
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 12:19 AM

"Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate than that these people [blacks] are to be free. Nor is it less certain that the two races, equally free, cannot live in the same government. Nature, habit, opinion has drawn indelible lines of distinction between them." --Thomas Jefferson: Autobiography, 1821. ME 1:72

"Do not mistake me. I am not advocating slavery. I am not justifying the wrongs we have committed on a foreign people... On the contrary, there is nothing I would not sacrifice to a practicable plan of abolishing every vestige of this moral and political depravity." --Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Cooper, 1814. ME 14:184

"Nobody wishes more ardently to see an abolition, not only of the trade, but of the condition of slavery; and certainly, nobody will be more willing to encounter every sacrifice for that object." --Thomas Jefferson to Brissot de Warville, 1788. ME 6:428

"I can say with conscious truth that there is not a man on earth who would sacrifice more than I would to relieve us from this heavy reproach in any practicable way." --Thomas Jefferson to John Holmes, 1820. ME 15:249

"I congratulate you, fellow citizens, on the approach of the period at which you may interpose your authority constitutionally, to withdraw the citizens of the United States from all further participation in those violations of human rights which have been so long continued on the unoffending inhabitants of Africa, and which the morality, the reputation, and the best interests of our country, have long been eager to proscribe." --Thomas Jefferson: 6th Annual Message, 1806. ME 3:421


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: olddude
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 12:23 AM

Remember one thing also, Yes he owned slaves, if he set them free, they had a short time to get outta dodge or could be slaves again under a new owner . Where does one go ... I suppose Canada, did he ask them if they wanted to leave ... don't know maybe he did ... I do know he loved his mistress from all accounts ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: olddude
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 12:30 AM

by the way there is a bunch of redneck horse shit about how silent he was and how he reversed his opinion in 1820 ... not true
here is a direct quote

"The abolition of the evil is not impossible; it ought never therefore to be despaired of. Every plan should be adopted, every experiment tried, which may do something towards the ultimate object." --Thomas Jefferson to Frances Wright, 1825. ME 16:120


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 12:41 AM

artbrooks, if you notice, my link refers to 2010, this upcoming school year. Yours, I believe, is from 2009.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: LadyJean
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:00 AM

My dad started teaching me history when my age was still in the low single digits. I always wondered why, until I began encoutnering people who rewrote the past to suit their own agenda, e.g. Jefferson supporting faith based programs.

The British moved freed Africans, who had supported them, back to Africa, after Yorktown.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: olddude
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 01:01 AM

upon his death he freed many of his slaves, why not all of them. Money, he was heavy in debt and would lose Monticello ..maybe .. It is truly one of the great puzzles to me. He absolutely hated slavery .. fought against it his whole life but for a host of reasons still had them. Now I know his love for family and his slaves actually maybe he was afraid of what would happen to all of them .. no real explanation ..

I feel I got to know the man and it was not greed that kept them , he was never afraid of anything so I suspect it was for everyone else for some reason... It would be a really good research to get to the truth huh


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:03 AM

"The British moved freed Africans, who had supported them, back to Africa, after Yorktown"

Yes, and the British also cleansed (now) eastern Canada by forced-moving French Canadian Acadian settlers, off their land, broke up families, scattering them to the swamps of Louisiana, and to slave type labour conditions in other southern USA locals. They replaced them with loyal English and German folks giving them much of the Acadian land.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 06:15 AM

I often read that Jefferson preached one one thing,and did another...as a true politician. For example, I have read that he
Jspoke highly of American Indians, but put processes in place to take their land away, concentrate them in remote locations (with poor agricultural land) and that nearly distroyed their culture.

Is this true?


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:06 AM

I'm afraid that the NY Times is in error. This from Politifact may clarify it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: olddude
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:30 AM

Ed he did indeed speakhighly on native Americans, He also charged Lewis and Clark to explore the Louisiania purchase. One main concern Jefferson's plans for the nation depended upon western expansion and access to international markets for American farm products. This vision was threatened, however, when France regained control of Louisiana. Napoleon, who had now risen to power in the French Revolution, threatened to block American access to the important port of New Orleans on the Mississippi River. New American settlements west of the Appalachian Mountains depended upon river transport to get their goods to market since overland trade to the east was expensive and impractical. Hence he did the purchase. If you read his writings on slavery, he dream was that "colored" would one day live side by side with everyone as freemen. I believe his thought process was the same with native Americans, this feeling we will just live and work as one. What he did not know , nor anyone else for that matter, how native American's needed the land to live and their culture would be destroyed by this movement. Remember Lewis and Clark were the first to explore at this early time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:31 AM

Olddude: Think you'd enjoy- if you haven't already read them, Annette Gordon Reed's

1. Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings; An American Controversy (Univ. Virginis Press 1998)and

2. The Hemingses of Monticello (Norton, 2008)

( Helps to read them in order of publication- I did it backwards )

They deal with quite a few of the issues you've raise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: olddude
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:36 AM

Hey thanks Greg will do


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: olddude
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 08:50 AM

One of the great things I love about Jefferson is when he , with others penned the Bill of Right,   for all men, Jefferson meant it. All men including, blacks, whites, native Americans, everyone. His thought process is we are all American's now , one nation. With this thinking however comes the unknown side effects, west movement will destroy a people and culture. He didn't know native American's or how they lived, no one really did. It was we are all Americans, all share this great nation and we are all one ... We are a free nation for everyone.

That is why people think he said one thing , did the other .. Not true at all ... He meant it, exactly what he wrote .. but history will proved that it takes much more then the words to eventually get us to his dream....


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 09:47 AM

With reference to the expulsion of The Acadians from Eastern Canada..ypur history of inaccurate. This is a subject which requires people to read more Good history and less bad poetry(Longfellow..Evangeline) Just an observation


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: pdq
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 10:08 AM

"Those who govern least govern best." ~ Thomas Jefferson

That is why Jefferson is a libertarian icon as well as a hero to other groups.

He also helped make sure that God is in our government documents and on our money, which helps explain his status among Christian conservatives.


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 10:13 AM

He also helped make sure that God is in our government documents and on our money

What in god's name makes you think this is so?


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: pdq
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 10:43 AM

----- Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June 26, 1822

"Dear Sir,- I have received and read with thankfulness and pleasure your denunciation of the abuses of tobacco and wine. Yet, however sound in its principles, I expect it will be but a sermon to the wind. You will find it as difficult to inculcate these sanative precepts on the sensualities of the present day, as to convince an Athanasian that there is but one God. I wish success to both attempts, and am happy to learn from you that the latter, at least, is making progress, and the more rapidly in proportion as our Platonizing Christians make more stir and noise about it. The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man.

1. That there is one only God, and he all perfect.
2. That there is a future state of rewards and punishments.
3. That to love God with all thy heart and thy neighbor as thyself, is the sum of religion.

These are the great points on which he endeavored to reform the religion of the Jews. But compare with these the demoralizing dogmas of Calvin.

1. That there are three Gods.
2. That good works, or the love of our neighbor, are nothing.
3 That faith is every thing, and the more incomprehensible the proposition, the more merit in its faith.
4. That reason in religion is of unlawful use.
5. That God, from the beginning, elected certain individuals to be saved, and certain others to be damned; and that no crimes of the former can damn them; no virtues of the latter save.

Now, which of these is the true and charitable Christian? He who believes and acts on the simple doctrines of Jesus? Or the impious dogmatists, as Athanasius and Calvin?...doctrine of one only God is reviving, and I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die an Unitarian..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Thomas Jefferson
From: Arkie
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 11:35 AM

Since this quote has not shown up before, I am compelled to mention it now.

From John F. Kennedy's address at a White House dinner honoring Nobel Prize winners in 1962:

"I think this is the most extraordinary collection of talent, of human knowledge, that has ever been gathered together at the White House, with the possible exception of when Thomas Jefferson dined alone."

My understanding is that Jefferson was a friend to religion if not a conventional believer. He was opposed to "state religions" that had existed in Europe and open to the freedom of religious groups to worship without government interference. He was certainly opposed to religious groups imposing their will and beliefs on others by gaining favorable government status or any other means. In Virginia, prior to the Revolution, the Anglican Church received support from the state and was allowed to tax all citizens. Jefferson was instrumental in ending that practice. On the other hand he authored a state statute supporting religious freedom; a document he considered one of his greatest achievements. As one who is guided by Christian belief, I am thankful for Thomas Jefferson's imprint on the governing documents of the USA. I can also understand to a degree Jefferson's dilemma with slavery. While he could see the injustice of the institution, he could also understand the way slavery was ingrained in the economy of the south. He probably could not envision a way to eliminate slavery without destroying the agricultural system of the south. Somewhere I read that Jefferson believed a culture based around agriculture was superior to culture based upon industrialization.

Jefferson and Adams were bitter political enemies during their active years in politics. Jefferson defeated Adams in the presidential election when Adams was running for his second term. An aside here; Adams was advised that his best chance for re-election was for the country to be at war. Adams was more concerned about the welfare of his country than re-election. However, they later engaged in an active correspondence which revealed an immense respect. Both died on the same day; July 4 on the 50th anniversary of the adoption of the Declaration of Independence.


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Mudcat time: 28 September 1:30 PM EDT

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