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BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her

Mrrzy 08 Jun 10 - 06:01 PM
Wesley S 08 Jun 10 - 06:14 PM
Alice 08 Jun 10 - 06:27 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 08 Jun 10 - 06:36 PM
Lox 08 Jun 10 - 06:41 PM
Uncle_DaveO 08 Jun 10 - 07:26 PM
Bill D 08 Jun 10 - 07:36 PM
kendall 08 Jun 10 - 07:36 PM
Bill D 08 Jun 10 - 07:43 PM
Ed T 08 Jun 10 - 07:56 PM
Bobert 08 Jun 10 - 08:06 PM
Bill D 08 Jun 10 - 08:09 PM
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Bobert 08 Jun 10 - 08:54 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 08 Jun 10 - 09:43 PM
EBarnacle 08 Jun 10 - 11:22 PM
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Subject: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:01 PM

But is she right? (This is about the controversy after she said that Israel should get the hell out of Palestine and its inhabitants should all go back where they came from, or something. She didn't actually say a religion isn't a nationality... but she was the greatest thorn in the side of any presidential press conference evvvvvvvver...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Wesley S
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:14 PM

I think she's welcome to her own opinion - but she has to know that in her line of work she needs to have the appearance of being neutral. She really screwed up making those comments on camera.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Alice
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:27 PM

She wrote a column of her opinion, so she was not a neutral news reporter.
Be that as it may, it's a shocking ending to a long career.
I saw the video when she made the statement... she said they should go back to Poland and Germany. Yikes!


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:36 PM

European and American Zionists completely upset the original intent of Palestine.
Too bad she is penalized for her beliefs, while opposing views are looked upon as the only acceptable ones.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Lox
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:41 PM

Helen Thomas was wrong to say what she said.

People who have emigrated lawfully to Israel from Europe do not deserve to be subject to these kinds of comments.

It is also true that The Israeli administration should not settle european immigrants on land that does not belong to Israel, nor evict people from their property either within Israel or in illegally occupied territory to make room for European immigrants.

Europeans lawfully emigrating to Israel should be free to settle within Israels borders without displacing any of its residents in the process.

I suspect that helen thomas' comments relate to European immigrants who have settled on land occupied illegally by Israel, or those who have settled on land from which non Jewish residents have been forcibly evicted solely because they were not Jewish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 07:26 PM

Lox, inter alia commented:

The Israeli administration should not settle european immigrants on land that does not belong to Israel,

A central problem here is that expression, "belong to". A substantial portion of world Jewry considers that that land belongs to them, out of ancient times. I know a strong equitable argument can be made on the Palestinian side of essentially the same argument, but that "Eretz Israel, we've always owned that land" concept is very politically strong in Israel, and the Israeli government can ignore it only at the cost of immediately losing office to the real hard-liners.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 07:36 PM

I think age has gotten to Helen's formerly agile brain. I can't imagine how she thought THAT remark could get by.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: kendall
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 07:36 PM

Possession is 9/10 of the law.
She's 90 years old and entitled to be wrong.Hell, I'm wrong all the time and I'm no where near 90.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 07:43 PM

I just had a thought, and looked up her bio on wikipedia...


"Her parents, George Thomas and Mary (née Rowady), were Lebanese immigrants from Tripoli, Lebanon;[5][6][7] her father's surname had originally been "Antonious" before being anglicized to Thomas at Ellis Island"

I'd guess that she has harbored 'thoughts' about Israel since it was created. This recent job as a columnist seems to have made her think her 'opinions' were gonna be appreciated. She was good at what she did for a very long time....too bad she couldn't walk out 'cleanly'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 07:56 PM

Maybe she could have added all the other imigrants in the world who displaced or killed off original residents and made trouble for them...to go back to where they came from. Now, does that right and defendable also?


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 08:06 PM

I think that Helen Thomas just staked out the most radical position that could be staked out... Maybe having done this will at the very least get Isreal to work a little harder in trying to resolve it's issdues with the Palestinians...

Hey, "Can't we all just get along???"

I mean, there isn't much movement from the hardliners in Isreal and there needs to be some... Their blockade is only making them less safe... I'd like everyone to have some level of security in the Middle East that is now missing and Isreal is holding most of the cards...

So maybhe something good can come out of Helen Thomas's radical rant...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 08:09 PM

"Since leaving UPI, Thomas has been more likely to air her personal views. In a speech at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Thomas quipped, "I censored myself for 50 years when I was a reporter. Now I wake up and ask myself, 'Who do I hate today?'""


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 08:26 PM

Helen is not senile as Amos impnes, but simply depended too much on the priviledge of age to be truthful.

She was not talking about the Isreal of the past. Today's Isreal has lost every single allie in the middle east and Europe. Even when the US simply asked for Isreal to not leave Gaza but only stop building apartments for Jews only, the leadership of Isreal said to America, "Fuck YOU!"
Today Isreal's NetenYAHOO has taken the gamebook from Bush neocons and is playing a deadly game of idiot's revenge for the last two military adventures that they clearly lost. Thier right wing gestapo tactics do not please anyone except the far right.

About two years ago I proposed that no matter how bigoted and militant South Carolinans can be, Isreal would be better suited to have South Carolina partitioned and establish their new country there while preserving the right to visit and vacation in Jerusalem.

I grew up with the familial remnants of the holocaust and have come to learn that many holocausts have occured and differ only in the technology used to murder people. Isreal is a glowing testament to hard work, democracy, hope, and dreams of religious freedom and peace. Peace has not happened and without any doubt never will. If Jewish scholors believed in wisdom more than repeating the past, they would jump at the offer of South Carolina as the best promised land on the planet.

Given the alternative of releasing atomic and hydrogen bombs in the middle east in the next decade, I believe that half of South Carolina is the best alternative to a desert wasteland dead sea and unending killing.

South Carolina is not the only choice. Puerto Rico is another better alternative to Palistine and the holy Roman land of sorrow. Even the Mormons had sense enough to move on until they hit Utah even though the holy incidents and relics that were supposedly delivered to Joseph Smith took place in upstate Palmyra New York. What is it with salty dead lakes and religions anyway?

but I digress.

Helen is a vital and honest voice in America that will be missed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 08:33 PM

impunes


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 08:54 PM

Sdee, that's whast I am talking about... Sometimes it does take some radical views to get the knuckleheads to just do something... Anything...

Hey, if South Carolina has to go, so be it...

But seriously, there is an advantage to being old enough to not give a shit about what folks might think... My dad was a Republican *almost* all of his life... Yeah, it was starnge growin' up in my family c'asue my mom, ahhhhh, she was a leftist commie mommie...

But when my dad finally retired (from a business where most of his associates, if not all, were Repubs) he changed his tune... It was so refreshing... I mean, here's a guy who supported Vietnam right to the end but when Bush came along with wanting to attack Iraq my dad said stuff about Bush that I cannot repeat...

So, yeah, I hope that Helen Thomas's rant brings some change...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 09:43 PM

Carving up the Ottoman Turkish Empire by the victors following WW1 has stained eastern Europe and western Asia with blood for almost 100 years.
No end in sight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: EBarnacle
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 11:22 PM

Which land is the property of Israel? Is it the land they have been able to hold since 1947, since 1967? the Sinai? If Israel has good reason to believe they can make an honest deal with anyone, including Hamas, the settlers will find themselves moved out post haste.

Based on recent history, the Palestinians will then move in, slaughter anyone who is not a party liner and trash the structures left behind by the "Zionist Jewish entity" because they don't want anything from the Jews.

As long as the Palestinians do not actually have a diaspora from the camps, the Arabs are maintaining a pestilential source of fear and hatred perfect for recruiting jihadists.

The really objectionable part of Thomas's statement is that she is indulging her prejudices using her age and status as an excuse. Right now, the Germans, Russians and Poles, along with other central European countries are "friendly territory" in their laws. All it takes is a change of administration for that to turn around.

Without a national home, we Jews are truly "Ivri," wanderers with no one to stand up for us and no where to go.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 11:36 PM

As long as the Palestinians do not actually have a diaspora from the camps, the Arabs are maintaining a pestilential source of fear and hatred perfect for recruiting jihadists.

Explain what this means, please. Sorry to be thick.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 11:47 PM

If a Jihadist ever does make it to the next world, wouldn't it be funny if the first of his 72 virgins looks like Helen Thomas?


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: number 6
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 12:23 AM

Here's something that concerns me ...

The writing is on the synagogue wall

I'll more than likely take a lot of flak for posting this ... but all in all it's a reality.

This is all I'll post regrding this matter ... say what you will, but I will not be drawn into any arguments by those who refute this.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Janie
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:08 AM

Yes, biLL, it is a reality. The holocaust is a reality. The oppression of Palestinians by the Israeli government is a reality. Lots of hurtful and harmful reality, past and present.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Calico
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:37 AM

Rabbi Sol, I think it would be a great comeuppance if a Jihadist's 77 virgins were all 89 years old, regardless of whatever else they looked like.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 02:11 AM

Anti semetic fronts could collide for the perfect storm. Tea party meets the religious right meets a third storm of anti immigrant, birther Glen Neck historians.

Evangelical church leaders have presented a freindly face to Isreal in recent years while more or less ignoring their own Jewish neighbors.
How long do you think it would take in this climate for the religious right to purge the non christians in thier thoughts and deeds? I say it would take less than 2 years for the religious right to add Jews to their hate shit list.

Its not like 'they' are really out of anti semetic practice.

The money that South Carolina residents and farmers would get would heal feeling quickly. Heck a lot of them were talking secession anyway. ;k


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 04:39 AM

History teaches us that man never learns from history!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 05:21 AM

Some historic information on Jewish movements to what is now Israel, from the Jewish virtual library.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/m


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 05:39 AM

Another site with historic information:
http://www.mythsandfacts.com/conflict/mandate_for_palestine/mandate_for_palestine.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:21 AM

Here is an interesting article about Helen Thomas.


    Clear cut case of right and wrong.


Rabbi Sol,

If we are poking fun at the religious beliefs of Moslem political extremists in this thread, does that mean we should, in the interests of balance, also be poking fun at the religious beliefs of Christian or Jewish extremists?


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:44 AM

Journalists have personal opinions. There is no surprise in that fact. But, when one crosses the line, and publically takes a position on a significant issue, or make what some may consider hateful or disparaging remarks, they have crossed the line from being seen as an objective journalist to an advocate. We all have the right to our opinions and beliefs. But, it is wise to act with caution, if publically airing these opinions impacts the job we do. She joins a small number of journalists who stepped down from their jobs (or were requested to do so) when they exercised poor judgement, and crossed that line.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Genie
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:12 AM

It is very stifling to the essential principle of freedom of the press when longstanding careers of outstanding journalists, even those who engage in political commentary, can be ended and dismissed abruptly because of one thoughtless comment or error, even an outrageous one.

Hardly anyone is defending what Helen Thomas said, but weighed against a stellar 50-year career asking the tough questions we need journalists to ask, I don't think that error in judgment merits relegating her to the dustbin of political discussion.

Will she be replaced by yet another weak-kneed 'reporter' afraid to offend those in political power by asking important questions on controversial issues?


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:24 AM

"Hardly anyone is defending what Helen Thomas said, but weighed against a stellar 50-year career asking the tough questions we need journalists to ask, I don't think that error in judgment merits relegating her to the dustbin of political discussion."

In addition to which, the question of what she was actually saying is a moot point.

Did she say All Jews should leave Israel?

No.

She has had that view attributed to her though and is being punished for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:36 AM

Did she say All Jews should leave Israel?

That may also seem like a moot point to many.

Did Don Imus refer to all blacks when he made his inappropriate (racial) comment?

Also, No.

But, that also seemed like a moot point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:42 AM

True, but associated with theis subject is the issue of European immigrants being settled in the occupied territories and on land within Israel from which non-Jews have been evicted specifically so that Israeli Jews could settle there.

It is highly likely that Helen Thomas was referring to the injustice of this and questioning the right of europeans to effectively forcibly evict residents of a given area just so that they can live there.

This would be a valid point.

Sadly she was not clear so until she clarifies her view we cannot know.

Equally sadly, she has been convicted and punished for espousing anti-semitic views before she or we have had a chance to scrutinize her motives more clearly, which amounts to shooting first ad asking questions later.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Riginslinger
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 07:55 AM

People should be able to express their thoughts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 08:06 AM

"People should be able to express their thoughts."

She did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: number 6
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 08:48 AM

"People should be able to express their thoughts"

Yes they should ... but one also must be held accountable for what one says.

we currently live in a very complex and delicate time in history were we are becoming extremely polarized on political, philosophical, racial, religious views. Paranoia, fear, hatred, revenge is at an all time high. Such remarks from a person of her position, or by anyone does not ease the tension. What she said just adds more fuel to the fire of hatred, ignorance and injustice. Both sides of the equation are hurt from such remarks.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 10:00 AM

I'm not sure Helen Thomas screwed up. She didn't elucidate her point of view. That's not a screw-up but a "gotcha" (as Republicans are fond of saying. Her point of view was clear.
Israel should get the hell out of Gaza. As to the other part about Jewish inhabitants of
Israel going back to the lands of origin, this was not really clear on her part. She didn't have a chance to elucidate and she was angry and caught off guard. It's Ari Fleischer
who has a vested interest in Israeli politics that jumped on this band wagon.

I think she left fiery and uncompromising as she has always been in her reporting, wanting to get at the truth. As to the quality of reporting that she was able to give, to do the same Ari Fleischer as they say in a Yiddish trope, "He should live so long."


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 10:00 AM

Hmmm. Ferry, ferry interestink.

Does Israel being based in religion make it such that you could be Israeli in Poland and Germany and anywhere else there are Jews, but you can only be Palestinian in Palistine since that is based on geography? I think we know that at the dawn of history (as in writing),the Hebrews were already in exile from that area, even before they became Jews (Covenant of Abraham). Does that mean they have to have it back for religious reasons, when nobody else displaced since then gets *their* original land back? Besides, didn't the Semites (pre-split before hebrew and arab) "originally" displace some other humans, anyway? How far back do you want to go?


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: EBarnacle
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 10:20 AM

OK, Mousethief. The diaspora would be absorbtion into the remainder of the Arab world. By maintaining the camps, they are maintaining an infective source of high level hatred and poverty rather than encouraging the people to get on with their lives.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 11:03 AM

What in your explanation are "the diaspora"? Usually that refers to Jewish people scattered throughout the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 11:17 AM

I was nine years old when WWII ended. I would never have believed that the wheel could turn that far again in my lifetime but it appears the potential is there.

Why it should be the Jews I don't know but in hard times humankind has always needed - and used - a scapegoat. Currently, in the US the handiest one is the 'illegal immigrant', which frankly I consider a code word.

I don't mean to imply that in America we don't and would never scapegoat Jews, but it seems that Europe has always been closer to that edge than the 'new world' has. Maybe for the very fact that the US is a nation of immigrants.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:13 PM

biLL: "we currently live in a very complex and delicate time in history were we are becoming extremely polarized on political, philosophical, racial, religious views. Paranoia, fear, hatred, revenge is at an all time high. Such remarks from a person of her position, or by anyone does not ease the tension. What she said just adds more fuel to the fire of hatred, ignorance and injustice. Both sides of the equation are hurt from such remarks."

That is so true!...However, the same can be said for over re-actions, and people making issues bigger than they are by immature, hysterical 'politically correct' theatrics of appall!

To give an example, even on here, the accusations of hatred and bigotry, the blowing up of non-issues, is staggering! Whether or not people actually think(?) that or not, or are just posturing themselves, as to align themselves with whatever 'political polarization' du'jour they banter, causes them to be barely believable...unless they are trying to impress, that one could be so superficial, stupid, and shallow!!! ......Keep in mind, that musicians have been thought to be more open minded, and liberal(not in the 'political' sense) in their thinking.

Helen Thomas, has been stellar at times, and then on the other hand, rather polarized, herself. It may be hard to tell whether her 'retirement' was 'safe', because of her age, or politically convenient or diplomatically expeditious. Had she written that, as part of her reporting, would have been one thing, but saying it, offhandedly, in a private conversation, may be another. In any event, it was a dumb remark. What to look for now, will be the backlash, as per aforementioned, in my first paragraph, (after biLL's quote), and if it gives impetus to new, and absurd mid-east policies opinion.

I'm sure if a Native American said the same thing about us, going back to Europe, Africa or Central America, he would be minimalized, and thought to be harmlessly discontented!

I once saw an article, from an interview of me, and I was really pissed off, at what was reported, in what I thought was a confidential thing, I said to the reporter...and told her, not to print that, because of contractual agreements, and as to the issue of publicizing, the fact, that a particular film company and myself, were into negotiations for some submitted material. She printed it, and the name off the company! When I read the article, I went through the roof! Later, a friend, and someone who had been down that road, told me, "If you don't want it reported, never tell a reporter, even in friendship an think it will remain "..off the record"

Since the Obama Administration's policies toward the mid-east, and in regards to Israel, have been 'less pro-Israel', apparently this may be more of an issue, and forcing Thomas to leave, MAY have just been an appeasement, rather than forcing the administrations hand, at fully revealing their own agenda, as to their feelings, in regards to Israel.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:26 PM

In addition to my previous post, to underline the double standard of hypocrisy of politicos, if you say Jews should go back from where they came from, ie. Poland, Germany, America, etc etc, the 'left' goes "Hurray! That's right!!" If you even breathe that illegal aliens should go back home, the same people call you a bigot, hateful and start forming lynch mobs around being against the mythical 'politically correct'!!

It only has the power of what you believe....and where a double standard of hypocrisy is the base, is usually nonsense!!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: number 6
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:39 PM

GfS ... just to let you know ... I happen to believe in open borders for all.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:40 PM

If we all went back to where we came from, Africa couldn't hold us...


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:41 PM

I don't know what "left" you mean. I certainly don't feel that way and I don't know of any lefty, or even middle of the road folks who feel that way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Riginslinger
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:56 PM

"Since the Obama Administration's policies toward the mid-east, and in regards to Israel, have been 'less pro-Israel'..."

             And since Jews are the puppet-masters with a hand in Obama's back, this is really hard to figure...


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 01:56 PM

Katlaughing: "I don't know what "left" you mean. I certainly don't feel that way and I don't know of any lefty, or even middle of the road folks who feel that way."

Such absent mined denial

You don't????????????



number 6: "
GfS ... just to let you know ... I happen to believe in open borders for all."

They are, LEGALLY!


Mrrzy: "If we all went back to where we came from, Africa couldn't hold us..."

See if you could convey that to 'number6', for all those who want to come here!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: number 6
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 02:00 PM

"They are, LEGALLY!"

"See if you could convey that to 'number6', for all those who want to come here!"

clarification required ... please explain

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 02:16 PM

I don't agree with Helen's famously aired views on juden raus but I admire her long career of standing up to power. A lot of reporters could use an injection of her attitude.

All-in-all, I think she's been treated more than fair.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:14 PM

biLL, hope this clarifies:

number 6 : "GfS ... just to let you know ... I happen to believe in open borders for all.

Then:

Mrrzy: "Mrrzy: "If we all went back to where we came from, Africa couldn't hold us..."

Got it??

P.S., It was just a quip, pointing out the irony of the 'liberal' point of view. There are SO MANY things they say, that contradict their own 'logic'(?)

That said, and I'm not even particularly , a 'Conservative'....I'm just from 'Sanity-Land'

Wink,
GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:53 PM

I don't know which "lefties" you mean when you say those of us opposed to anti-immigration extremes also say "fine" to sending Jews back to wherever. That's certainly not my view.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Riginslinger
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 04:36 PM

But as final solutions go, Helen Thomas's is more appealing than...


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:40 PM

? I don't get the quip, above...


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Riginslinger
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:49 PM

final solution


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:57 PM

I don't know which "lefties" you mean when you say those of us opposed to anti-immigration extremes also say "fine" to sending Jews back to wherever. That's certainly not my view.

Me neither. And I'm pretty lefty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Lox
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 06:59 PM

"if you say Jews should go back from where they came from, ie. Poland, Germany, America, etc etc, the 'left' goes "Hurray! That's right!!"

Can you provide an example of this?



.... oops ...



Sorry GfS I mistook you for someone with something interesting to say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: number 6
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 09:26 PM

GfS ... gotcha


I think ... :)

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Genie
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 12:01 AM

Ed T, comparing a comedian/shock jock like Don Imus to a distinguished journalist is hardly a fair comparison. And beyond that, Imus, whose stock-in-trade is/was outrageous gags and pranks and commentary, was "fired" numerous times but always seemed to have yet another of his 9 lives intact.   Same goes for people like Rush Limbaugh whose deliberately OTT and politically incorrect shtick sometimes gets them bounced from one gig, only to pop up again Wack-A-Mole-like in another.   
Helen Thomas's situation is one where, aside from G W Bush having basically kicked her to the curb early in his administration for actually doing what the press is supposed to do, she has had a stellar and most responsible career for decades.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Genie
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 12:07 AM

@ number 6 "What she said just adds more fuel to the fire of hatred, ignorance and injustice. Both sides of the equation are hurt from such remarks.

biLL"

And you don't think the same can fairly be said of Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Michael Savage, Liz Cheney, Sarah Palin, Bill O'Reilly, Congressional representatives Michelle Bachman and Michelle Malkin, Ann Coulter, etc.? On a daily basis?

Again, how does one remark, however divisive and ill-advised, wipe out a 50-year career?


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Genie
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 12:18 AM

@ GfS "... if you say Jews should go back from where they came from, ie. Poland, Germany, America, etc etc, the 'left' goes "Hurray! That's right!!" If you even breathe that illegal aliens should go back home, the same people call you a bigot, hateful and start forming lynch mobs around being against the mythical 'politically correct'!!"


Overgeneralize and exaggerate much, GfS?


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 03:01 AM

Wow! I must have hit a nerve..some get it, and some are blinded by 'politics'!

Would you say that Helen Thomas is on the left??

Then a bunch come on, and say they are on the left...right?(or should I say, 'correct'?)

Do you agree with her, or not?

Why?...or Why not?

We'll start there, ok?..It seems we may have to go slow here...but we'll come full circle.


as to LOX, you just confused me, not because I have nothing to say, but morely because, you only WANT to hear certain things, and block the rest, and file it under 'can't understand that'!..Fair enough?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Lox
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 03:39 AM

No GfS, because you have criticized the political left on the basis that they have double standards on this issue.

But your example is unfounded.

And like most things you say, a load of very creative rubbish.

Almost art ... but not quite.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 04:35 AM

I guess those who are 'leaning' to the left, only do that, because they are sitting on the right!

Get off it! The liberal left is not a sacred cow...neither is the far right. They are only a vehicle to which masses of people are controlled!..if you buy into it! There is truth in both sides, contrary to the hard core die-hards of either/or both sides! Its basically the political machine versus the corporate machine. May I suggest being your own person? Both sides infringe peoples rights by imposing their wills over other people's rights!!... Its politics!! What lawyer, turned politician do YOU trust??....GOT IT???

Play, and write music that comes from your heart of hearts! That is CHANGE!

Sincerely,
GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: number 6
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 08:17 AM

Genie ... And you don't think the same can fairly be said of Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Michael Savage, Liz Cheney, Sarah Palin, Bill O'Reilly, Congressional representatives Michelle Bachman and Michelle Malkin, Ann Coulter, etc.? On a daily basis?"

To answer your question .... as I earlier stated "one also must be held accountable for what one says." ... key word here is accountable. What she said was a remark, with no substance to back her up. It was a cheap shot. A great disappointment from someone of her position.

The same applies (held accountable) to anyone in your list of right leaning "commentators". and the same to anyone on the left, middle or whatever.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 08:17 AM

As much trouble as these people cause all over the world, it's hard to know what to do with them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: EBarnacle
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 01:22 PM

Mousethief, the term "Diaspora" started out applying only to the dispersal of Jews throughout the world. It is now a more generic term used by, among others, African Americans to describe their dispersal from their homelands.

In context here, the Palestinian diaspora from the camps would be more an absorbtion into the population around them than a true diaspora into the world at large. As the Jews of the world have not had a homeland since they were thrown out by the Romans, the only home they could aspire to was "The Holy Land." Despite propaganda to the contrary, there has always been some Jewish presence in what is now Israel.

The problem is that the ones who were displaced during the 1947-48 war in which Israel established itself, were largely displaced by their own leaders. The Palestinians who did not leave are Israeli citizens. The ones who did leave were told to get out of the way so that the all-conquering Arab armies could come through, murder the Jews or throw them into the sea and then allow the Palestinians to return to their property, enhanced by the property of the massacred Jews. Unfortunately for them, the Jews did not cooperate and get killed so they could go back to their homes. History since then has been commentary on this situation.

There is a saying on both sides: The Arabs only have to win once.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 01:33 PM

"As much trouble as these people cause all over the world, it's hard to know what to do with them."

Rig, are you referring to journalists? Or to Jews?


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 01:36 PM

Both, now that you mention it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 02:06 PM

Well, the Final Solution has already been tried.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jun 10 - 07:36 PM

Right, maybe an end to tribalism would be a good approach.
Anyway - It looks like Helen Thomas is just getting started. She might be more helpful to the American public without having all of those editors and board members pouring over her words.
Now she's going after the press for not being honest in the run-up to the war in Iraq, and she's in a position to kick ass and name names.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: LadyJean
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 12:19 AM

The cartoon in yesterday's "Pittsburgh Post-Gazette" showed Helen Thomas on one side, ending a career after one outrageous statement. On the other side there was a cartoon of Rush Limbaugh who has made a career out of making outrageous statements.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Genie
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 02:46 AM

Gfs, I'd say that regardless of her personal political leanings, Helen Thomas has been a hard-hitting journalist for decades, asking tough questions of those in power, regardless of their political party.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Genie
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 02:57 AM

I'd love to see that cartoon, Lady Jean.


[[Bill #6 : "What [Thomas] said was a remark, with no substance to back her up. It was a cheap shot. A great disappointment from someone of her position.

The same applies (held accountable) to anyone in your list of right leaning "commentators". and the same to anyone on the left, middle or whatever."]]

Except that Helen Thomas's ill-chosen words were not said as part of one of her columns or statements intended for the press. Beck, Limbaugh, Savage, etc., and even "lefties" like Alan Grayson often make very provocative (some say "outrageous") statements TO the media and the public. The Dixie Chicks get boycotted and blacklisted for merely dissing the GWB administration's policies toward Iraq. But the talking heads on the right keep their lucrative radio and TV gigs despite (or because of?) "shockingly" outrageous spiels.


[[Riginslinger - "Anyway - It looks like Helen Thomas is just getting started. She might be more helpful to the American public without having all of those editors and board members pouring over her words.
Now she's going after the press for not being honest in the run-up to the war in Iraq, and she's in a position to kick ass and name names."

Good on her!   

I guess one of the few advantages of being almost 90 (and being financially pretty well set to boot) is that you don't really have to give a flying fig what people think of you.

Go, Helen!


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Number 6
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:32 AM

In a speech at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Thomas quipped, "I censored myself for 50 years when I was a reporter. Now I wake up and ask myself, 'Who do I hate today?'"

yup, .... go Helen go

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 04:51 PM

Um, tht would be poring over her words, not pouring over, unless they are spilling coffee or lemonade or something.

But am I the only one who doesn't think that a religion is an excuse for a nation?


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 05:19 PM

No, Mrrzy, you're not the only one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 05:24 PM

Count me also in on that. My guess is that you will find almost no one here who would.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 05:43 PM

"But am I the only one who doesn't think that a religion is an excuse for a nation?"

I don't know the answer to this because I'm not sure what the question is.

Is the question about whether or not religion is a good reason to create a nation?

Or is it asking whether a nations actions can be excused by its religious beliefs?

This is a very ambiguous and potentially very contentious issue.

If I was going to give an answer I'd need a more specific question.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:04 PM

It seems clear she made the right decision. There was no call for that remark.

Maybe she recognized it was time to get out of the pressure cooker.   From information since then, it seems she does feel a lot freer now.

When you're in the public eye, you need to weigh your words. The punishment can be swift if you don't.   And she knew that--as anybody does who even follows politics as an observer.

You may bemoan the death of spontaneity. But the trick is to be unscripted yet not reckless. Ain't easy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:42 PM

I suspect we'll hear more from her now, and what we hear will probably be valuable information.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Janie
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 06:40 AM

Well said, Ron.




And well said, Lox.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 08:07 AM

Ed T, comparing a comedian/shock jock like Don Imus to a distinguished journalist is hardly a fair comparison.

I was not, in any way, intending to compare their carreers....just comparing what they said and the results...regardless of their contribution to entertainmant or news reporting. Was what Imas said, worse that what she said? Bo


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Riginslinger
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 08:54 AM

"Was what Imas said, worse that what she said?"

       In one sense it was. Thomas was talking about a generic group of people, whereas Imus was talking about specific individuals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 09:40 AM

I'll repeat myslef and say that I think Helen's little rant will have a positive effect in the long run... I think that Isreal needs to put a few taters on the table 'casue their purely militaristic thinking isn't working for anyone... Them ncluded... This issue isn't going to just go away... It's gonna take work and Isreal holds most of the cards here...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 09:54 AM

"In one sense it was. Thomas was talking about a generic group of people, whereas Imus was talking about specific individuals"

But, to those impacted, would a comment on someones hair be considered to be more significant than suggesting a group of people should be expelled and shipped back to their original homes. I suspect the word Ho is often used in the media in a variety of situations without sanction (right or wrong). Imas seemed to be trying (unsuccessfuly and untastefully so), to make a Joke. Helen Thomas seemed to be trying to make a statement.

Would a statement like, "African orggin people (For example, Americans) should be shipped back to Africa" be more equal?

If Imas is recognized as a "comedian/shock jock, whose stock-in-trade is/was outrageous gags and pranks and commentary", and Helen thomas is a "distinguished journalist", would not the potential impact be greater....because more folks would likely put more stock in her statements, than Imus?

My point is what is the standard? Should it be a measure of what was said and who was injured and how,whether people feel injured, who puts up pressure for sanctions, the media outlet, the journalists career, whether they are likd or not,or some other criteria?

On a related thought, I recall a few years back someone claimed in a court case that they were defamed by a tabloid newspaper (possibly the World Weekly News). The publications main defense is that everyone knows nothing is true in the publication, so the damage was minimal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 11:25 AM

The WWN is not a tabloid newspaper. It is a spoof of a tabloid newspaper.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 11:45 AM

"The WWN is not a tabloid newspaper. It is a spoof of a tabloid newspaper".

Whatever


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 12:12 PM

Year and region where Jews have been expelled since 250 A.D., though it does not list the numbers.

Maybe Helen was onto something?

http://www.aztlan.net/jewexpulsions.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 12:43 PM

Whatever

This is your attitude towards accuracy?


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Riginslinger
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 01:00 PM

What does any of it have to do with accuracy?


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 01:02 PM

mousethief postes:

"This is your attitude towards accuracy"?

No, but, IMO your point was insignificant to the thread topic.

If not so, an idea may be to show how your clearification is important to the thread topic?

If, to the contrary, and you are mostly looking for an argument,
I am not interested. But, possibly someone else will take you up on that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 01:08 PM

Mousethief, the history of Weekly World News is not that clearcut. Check it out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 02:34 PM

I don't think that there is any news reporter today who is completely "neutral". There is always a POV regarding reportage and how can it not be since there are human preferences and opinions.

Helen Thomas was uncompromising in avoiding the so-called myth of "neutrality" in the news. She told it as she saw it.

I agree that Israel should "get the hell out of Gaza" but the second part is a little ambiguous. The problem is that we are dealing with a dissolution of the Separation of Church and State in Israel. I'm in favor of Israel as a single state with power sharing as we have here in the U.S. I don't see anything wrong with this. I don't care that Israel is not the U.S. I think what we have here traditionally works very well.

Since European Christians caused the Holocaust it would not serve Jews to return to Europe.

I think they should stay in Israel and share power with the Palestinians. The two-state solution would only cause territorial disputes and further bloodshed.

I like the U.S. model for Separation of Church and State. I don't want to see it Christianized, Judaized, Islamized or any other religious-ized. Let religion be a private matter like a person's sex life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Janie
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 05:14 PM

I agree with you, Frank, but the notion of the separation of church and state is a Western idea, evolved from the history of Western culture and experience.   I think we have to accept the reality that the history of Eastern and Mid-Eastern thought has followed a different evolutionary path.


That is why I value Lox's question(s), is the question about whether or not religion is a good reason to create a nation?

Or is it asking whether a nations (sic) actions can be excused by its religious beliefs?


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM

Query: Why is theocracy as it exists in Iran or with the Taliban roundly condemned, while Israel is universally applauded?


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Janie
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 05:41 PM

I don't think it is universally applauded, Greg.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Lox
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 05:59 PM

Janie,

You have found an interesting interpretation of my question, but I'm afraid that as much as would love to take credit for a valuable insight, I was actually only respondng very specifically to an earlier post which I found ambiguous.

See Mrrzy's post of 11 Jun 10 - 04:51 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Janie
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 06:40 PM

Lox,

I am cognizant of the post to which you were responding.

Your inguiry asks one to cogently consider what the core issue may be, without regard to what may have stimulated you to form the inquiry.

In the real world, it is actions (or behaviors, which ever term one prefers,)   that ultimately matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Riginslinger
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 10:30 PM

"Why is theocracy as it exists in Iran or with the Taliban roundly condemned, while Israel is universally applauded?"


                It certainly doesn't seem to be applauded here...


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 11:01 PM

Two good examples of nationforming on the basis of religeon are the partition of the Indian subcontinent, and the Balkans.

One example, the Indian subcontinent:

"1947, saw India divided in two countries with Pakistan as an Islamic state and India as a secular one. The process of partition had claimed many lives and injuries. The volume of migration partition formed the largest and most spatially concentrated streams of refugees in modern history. 15 million refugees poured across the borders to regions completely foreign to them, for though they were Hindu or Muslim, their identity had been embedded in the regions where there ancestors were from.

Many years after the partition, the two nations are still trying to heal the wounds left behind by this incision to once-whole body of India. Many are still in search of an identity and a history left behind beyond an impenetrable boundary. The two countries started of with ruined economies and lands and without an established, experienced system of government. They lost many of their most dynamic leaders, such as Gandhi, Jinnah and Allama Iqbal, soon after the partition. Pakistan had to face the separation of Bangladesh in 1971. India and Pakistan have been to war twice since the partition and they are still deadlocked over the issue of possession of Kashmir. The same issues of boundaries and divisions, Hindu and Muslim majorities and differences, still persist in Kashmir."

Sources:

1947 partition of the Indian subcontinent

a href="http://jrs.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/8/2/185">http://jrs.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/8/2/185


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Janie
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 11:46 PM

Thanks, Ed. The link gives me a message that URL not found. When I cut and pasted the url below the link, I got a similar message and then a redirect to the home page for the journal. Can you either try to post the link again, or post enough reference info. regarding the article that I can search for it in the journal archives?


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 11:55 PM

Greg F: "Query: Why is theocracy as it exists in Iran or with the Taliban roundly condemned, while Israel is universally applauded?"

Hint: Make a list of Muslim contributors to medicine, physics, inventors, Nobel laureates, entertainment..or any sector of civilization, on the planet.

Now make a list of Jewish contributors of the same.

Now compare them.

the rest is up to you!

Happy Hunting!
GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 12:24 AM

Oh, by the way, Greg, Israel, and the Jewish population of the planet is a minuscule fraction of the Muslim population!!

Find any difference in the size of your search, yet?????

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Riginslinger
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 08:40 AM

And the decision as to who has controls of the levers of power that announce and present such awards is in whose hands?


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 09:04 AM

Sorry...itwas late and I seemed to have lost one link. However, one is below, and another new one is below that one.

http://www.english.emory.edu/Bahri/Part.html


Another perspective..."There Was No "Partition":

However you view history (independance or partiition by the British) in the area (India-Pakistan), there was significant strife in the area following events of 1947. There seems to be no doubt that religeon played a major part.



http://pakhistorian.com/2009/10/12/partition-depicts-division-of-a-whole-1947-was-not-partition/


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 10:49 AM

Um - the moslems were way, way ahead of Europe in medicine and science long before the invention of the Nobel prize.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 12:46 PM

Okay, now. I've skimmed through this thread, and don't see mention of the National Public Radio story about this episode.

Am I the only one who was paying attention when they said that Helen Thomas is the daughter of parents who immigrated from Lebanon? And that she might just hold a typical opinion about the placement of Israel in the Middle East as one that she grew up with?

It was indiscreet to share that non-politically-correct opinion in a setting, however informal, where she was being filmed. As the NPR folks said in another article "she missed her exit." She should have retired on top, not left with her tail between her legs, but I know of a lot of descendants of Middle Eastern nations who share that anti-Israel sentiment. Perhaps if Israel had settled down and treated their neighbors and the Palestinians with respect every time peace talks occurred she would have changed her mind. As a Middle East descendant, watching how the Palestinians are treated and their lands continually appropriated, I can fully understand her frustration.

And no, viewing the political gaffes of the Israeli government does not make one an anti-Semite. As much as they will raise that cry, any time they misbehave.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 03:50 PM

She didn't retire with a "tail between her legs". She stated unequivocally that Israel "should get the hell out of Gaza". That is not cowardice but conviction and I agree with that.

As to the other part of her statement, that was not well-thought and somewhat ambiguous. But it does bring into question whether Israel can continue to exist with an unsustainable Likkud Party bias.

As to the "political gaffes of the Israeli government", these are not gaffes but deep-seated
paranoid policies that have been in place for too many years.

A complete rethinking of Israeli-Palestinian policy has to be made before WWIII is triggered.

The U.S. censuring of the Goldstone Report was short-sighted in the same way that the congress devalued ACORN on the basis of a hoax.

Will Israel get its act together remains to be seen. Hamas, democratically elected, has to be met by Israel and not the palliative of Abbas. In the meantime, the U.S. should not be apologists for Israel. Or for that matter, the aggression of Hamas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 04:24 PM

Her tail was between her legs, Frank, if she caved at the first amount of pressure and retired. She didn't stay and fight, or at least argue with folks for a while.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: pdq
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 05:05 PM

"Um - the moslems were way, way ahead of Europe in medicine and science long before the invention of the Nobel prize."

As stated, not true.

The Arabs and perhaps the Turks were ahead of Europe in some ways, such as math and astronomey, but that was before Islam.

After about 700 AD, the progress stopped and many cultures went backwards, thanks to Islam.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 11:21 PM

Hey Greg?...How's that list comin'?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 01:51 AM

Here Greggie, I'll help you!!!!!

The Global Islamic (Muslim) population is approximately 1,200,000,000

ONE BILLION TWO HUNDRED MILLION or 20% of the world's population.

They have received the following Nobel Prizes:

                      Literature:
                      1988 - Najib Mahfooz

                      Peace:
                      1978 - Mohamed Anwar El-Sadat
                      1994 - Yaser Arafat:
                      1990 - Elias James Corey
                      1999 - Ahmed Zewai

                      Economics: (zero)

                      Physics: (zero)

                      Medicine:
                      1960 - Peter Brian Medawar
                      1998 - Ferid Mourad

                      TOTAL: 7 SEVEN



____________________________________________________________________________

The Global Jewish population is approximately 14,000,000
-- ONLY FOURTEEN MILLION or about 0.02% of the world's population.

They have received the following Nobel Prizes:

                      Literature:

                      1910 - Paul Heyse
                      1927 - Henri Bergson
                      1958 - Boris Pasternak
                      1966 - Shmuel Yosef Agnon
                      1966 - Nelly Sachs
                      1976 - Saul Bellow
                      1978 - Isaac Bashevis Singer
                      1981 - Elias Canetti
                      1987 - Joseph Brodsky
                      1991 - Nadine Gordimer World

                      Peace:
                      1911 - Alfred Fried
                      1911 - Tobias Michael Carel Asser
                      1968 - Rene Cassin
                      1973 - Henry Kissinger
                      1978 - Menachem Begin
                      1986 - Elie Wiesel
                      1994 - Shimon Peres
                      1994 - Yitzhak Rabin

                      Physics:
                      1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer
                      1906 - Henri Moissan
                      1907 - Albert Abraham Michelson
                      1908 - Gabriel Lippmann
                      1910 - Otto Wallach
                      1915 - Richard Willstaetter
                      1918 - Fritz Haber
                      1921 - Albert Einstein
                      1922 - Niels Bohr
                      1925 - James Franck
                      1925 - Gustav Hertz
                      1943 - Gustav Stern
                      1943 - George Charles de Hevesy
                      1944 - Isidor Issac Rabi
                      1952 - Felix Bloch
                      1954 - Max Born
                      1958 - Igor Tamm
                      1959 - Emilio Segre
                      1960 - Don ald A. Glaser
                      1961 - Robert Hofstadter
                      1961 - Melvin Calvin
                      1962 - Lev Davidovich Landau
                      1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz
                      1965 - Richard Phil lips Feynman
                      1965 - Julian Schwinger
                      1969 - Murray Gell-Mann
                      1971 - Dennis Gabor
                      1972 - William Howard Stein
                      1973 - Brian David Joseph son
                      1975 - Benjamin Mottleson
                      1976 - Burton Richter
                      1977 - Ilya Prigogine
                      1978 - Arno Allan Penzias
                      1978 - Peter L Kapitza
                      1979 - Stephen Weinberg
                      1979 - Sheldon Glashow
                      1979 - Herbert Charles Brown
                      1980 - Paul Berg
                      1980 - Walter Gilbert
                      1981 - Roald Hoffmann
                      1982 - Aaron Klug
                      1985 - Albert A. Hauptman
                      1985 - Jerome Karle
                      1986 - Dudley R. Herschbach
                      1988 - Robert Huber
                      1988 - Leon Lederman
                      1988 - Melvin Schwartz
                      1988 - Jack Steinberger
                      1989 - Sidney Altman
                      1990 - Jerome Friedman
                      1992 - Rudolph Marcus
                      1995 - Martin Perl
                      2000 - Alan J. Heeger

                      Economics:
                      1970 - Paul Anthony Samuelson
                      1971 - Simon Kuznets
                      1972 - Kenneth Joseph Arrow
                      1975 - Leonid Kantorovich
                      1976 - Mil ton Friedman
                      1978 - Herb ert A. Simon
                      1980 - Lawrence Robert Klein
                      1985 - Franco Modigliani
                      1987 - Robert M. Solow
                      1990 - Harry Markowitz
                      1 990 - Merton Miller
                      1992 - Gary Becker
                      1993 - Robert Fogel

                      Medicine:
                      1908 - Elie Metchnikoff
                      1908 - Paul Erlich
                      1914 - Robert Barany
                      1922 - Otto Meyerhof
                      1930 - Karl Landsteiner
                      1931 - Otto Warburg
                      1936 - Otto Loewi
                      1944 - Joseph Erlanger
                      1944 - Herb ert Spencer Gasser
                      1945 - Ernst Boris Chain
                      1946 - Hermann Joseph Muller
                      1950 - Tadeus Reichstein
                      1952 - Selman Abra ham Waksman
                      1953 - Hans Krebs
                      1953 - Fritz Albert Lipmann
                      1958 - Joshua Lederberg
                      1959 - Arthur Kornberg
                      1964 - Konrad Bloch
                      1965 - Francois Jacob
                      1965 - Andre Lwoff
                      1967 - George Wald
                      1968 - Marshall W. Nirenberg
                      1969 - Salvador Luria
                      1970 - Julius Axelrod
                      1970 - Sir Bernard Katz
                      1972 - Gerald Maurice Ed elman
                      1975 - Howard Martin Temin
                      1976 - Baruch S. Blumberg
                      1977 - Roselyn Sussman Yalow
                      1978 - Daniel Nathans
                      1980 - Baruj Benacerraf
                      1984 - Cesar Milstein
                      1985 - Michael Stuart Brown
                      1985 - Joseph L. Goldstein
                      1986 - Stanley Cohen [& Rita Levi-Montalcini]
                      1988 - Gertrude Elion
                      1989 - Harold Varmus
                      1991 - Erwin Neher
                      1991 - Bert Sakmann
                      1993 - Richard J. Roberts
                      1993 - Phillip Sharp
                      1994 - Alfred Gilman
                      1995 - Edward B. Lewis

                      TOTAL: 129    ONE HUNDRED TWENTY NINE!


Jews are NOT promoting brain washing children in military training camps, teaching them how to blow themselves up and cause maximum deaths of Jews and other non-Muslims!

Jews don't hijack planes, nor kill athletes at the Olympics, or blow themselves up in German restaurants. There is NOT one single Jew that has destroyed a church. There is NOT a single Jew
that protests by killing people.

The Jews don't traffic slaves, nor have leaders calling for Jihad and death to all the non-Islam infidels.

Perhaps the world's Muslims should consider investing more in standard education and less in blaming the Jews for all their problems.

Muslims must ask 'what can they do for humankind' before they demand that humankind respects them!

Regardless of your feelings about the crisis between Israel and the Palestinians and Arab neighbors, even if you believe there is more culpability on Israel 's part, the following two sentences really say it
all:

'If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence.   If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel ' -Benjamin Netanyahu

Okay???

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 07:12 AM

GfS,

Your puerile and infantile comparison of the relative value of Jews and Moslems deserves only one reponse.

Contempt.

Is that what you think this argument boils down to?

Who is better?

Well let me tell you something.

99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of msolems and Jews are better than YOU in every way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 08:44 AM

LOX, Your prejudice and made you a complete idiot! I was merely answering 'Greg F's' question. YOU turned it into a projection of YOUR contempt for the truth, if it gets in the way of your bias!!!! Take a look:

"From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM

Query: Why is theocracy as it exists in Iran or with the Taliban roundly condemned, while Israel is universally applauded?"

NOW YOU HAVE SHOWN WHERE YOU ARE!! Maybe time to reconsider ingesting the crap you let into yourself, eh?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 08:47 AM

Correction of a typo:

LOX, Your prejudice and contempt has made you a complete idiot! I was merely answering 'Greg F's' question. YOU turned it into a projection of YOUR contempt for the truth, if it gets in the way of your bias!!!! Take a look:

"From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM

Query: Why is theocracy as it exists in Iran or with the Taliban roundly condemned, while Israel is universally applauded?"

NOW YOU HAVE SHOWN WHERE YOU ARE!! Maybe time to reconsider ingesting the crap you let into yourself, eh?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 09:12 AM

"Query: Why is theocracy as it exists in Iran or with the Taliban roundly condemned, while Israel is universally applauded?" "

And your answer was to compare who is better - Moslems or Jews.

You sad deluded person.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 09:52 AM

Moslems - ONE BILLION TWO HUNDRED MILLION or 20% of the world's population. They have received the following Nobel Prizes:

             RE: Physics: Has anyone working on the Iranian nuclear project been nominated for a Nobel Prize? If not, why not?


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 09:53 AM

"And your answer was to compare who is better - Moslems or Jews. You sad deluded person."

               I agree, Lox; they're both awful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 10:24 AM

Cheeky Monkey :-P


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 11:46 AM

No, LOX. The question posed by Greggie was a loaded question to begin with. I don't think anyone is 'APPLAUDING' Israel, as the question was asked, in the first place...which no on called him on..until now! That being said, I suppose one of the problems is, that soft, spoiled, self absorbed brats, can't seem to fathom, is what it is like to grow up in a small country, surrounded by your enemies, who want you wiped off the planet, and be living day to day with either, the threat of missiles raining on you, indiscriminately, or them actually falling into your cities! Just imagine that.

Now that that has been said, Yes, I'd love for peace to prevail in the mid-east, but they don't have the right of freedom of religion over there that we do...except in Israel! There, Muslims AND Jews can live side by side...but not so, in the surrounding countries!

You need to get out more..take a trip. Take a look..you and Greggie both. Get an idea what the fuck you're talking about...instead of adopting stupid alignments of political agendas!

Oh, and by the way, Helen Thomas was WAY out of line, with her 'just as stupid' comment!

Waving at ya'

GfS

P.S. Maybe another time to vent your stupid biases at me. Today just isn't your day!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 11:49 AM

"You need to get out more..take a trip."

GfS - I've lived in around 37 countries worldwide ...

... where have you been your whole life?


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 11:56 AM

LOX: "GfS - I've lived in around 37 countries worldwide ..."

I take it that Israel, or the mid-east was one of them?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 12:00 PM

Yes I've been to the middle east - several times - PS it isn't a country but a region and there are quite a lot of countries there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 12:06 PM

I know that. Jeez!, you're always projecting people to be stupid!

Did you find the people in Israel actively hating Muslims? ..or just wary of them?..I know that security going in and out, can be 'less than congenial'. You know as well as I, that they are pretty suspicious of virtually anyone, coming in, searching their packs, luggage, etc etc..,but on the other hand I couldn't blame them. Look at what they're having to deal with....fair enough?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 04:27 PM

I'm guessing the mid-east is soewhere to the right of the mid-west ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: EBarnacle
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 06:27 PM

OK, children, quit the personal fights and stick to issues.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: number 6
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 10:17 PM

"I'm guessing the mid-east is soewhere to the right of the mid-west"

New Jersey, New York City ???

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 10:24 PM

Quite the hissy-fit, GUEST Guest. Try breathing into a paper bag for a while. They you might try addressing the question. Or not.

(Is Guest-Guest something like Major Major, I wonder?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 01:09 AM

Or dum-dum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 01:38 AM

Or "Wibble wibble!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 01:46 AM

or poo-poo


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 01:05 PM

OK, folks, back to the thread...


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 01:52 PM

Yeah, given that long list of the places the Jews have been kicked out of, it's a wonder they don't do something to make themselves a little more popular with their neighbors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: EBarnacle
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 02:44 PM

Riginslinger, you have raised one of the ingrained issues.

"it's a wonder they don't do something to make themselves a little more popular with their neighbors"

There are several issues here:
1: Why aren't "they" more like us? If you go back to the Bible, when we accepted the designation by the Lord, it is stated that we shall be a people apart, adhering to G-D's laws. Many Jews still follow this principle.

2: The eternal blame for Christ's death/The Wandering Jew/the eternal guilt as a people, etc. This should have been allowed to die out but there are always haters among us who look for scapegoats, especially among those who are not like them or otherwise stand out.

3: There are quite a few of these issues and variations and, if you really want to spend a day or three discussing this question, which has troubled people for centuries, PM me and I will give you the house phone number. If you will be at Old Songs, I expect to have plenty of leisure there between assignments. If you are there on Sunday, we can invite Rabbi Sol to join us and really thrash this out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 03:19 PM

As to the claim that one 'catter lived in more countries, than another, (possibly, their argument is thus superior)...I suggest one should consider the following, (thanks to our friends at Monty Python):

Host: Good evening and welcome to Stake Your Claim. First this evening we have Mr Norman Voles of Gravesend who claims he wrote all Shakespeare's works. Mr Voles, I understand you claim that you wrote all those plays normally attributed to Shakespeare?
Voles (Michael Palin) : That is correct. I wrote all his plays and my wife and I wrote his sonnets.

Host: Mr Voles, these plays are known to have been performed in the early 17th century. How old are you, Mr Voles?

Voles: 43.

Host: Well, how is it possible for you to have written plays performed over 300 years before you were born?

Voles: Ah well. This is where my claim falls to the ground. There's no possible way of answering that argument, I'm afraid. I was only hoping you would not make that particular point, but I can see you're more than a match for me!


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,C. Ham
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 03:45 PM

Stringsinger,

You keep saying Helen Thomas said the Jews "should get the hell out of Gaza."

She didn't say that. She said they should "should get the hell out of Palestine."

When Helen tals about Palestine, she is not talking about an independent country of Palestine (that has yet to exist) or about the Palestinian territories of Gaza and the West Bank; she is talking about Israel proper. Those that do not accept that Israel should be its own country refer to the whole area as Palestine. Look at any map published by Hamas or even the PLO.

When she says go back to Germany and Poland, this is a direct reference to the Holocaust.

BTW, the majority of the Jews now living in Israel are (or are descendents of) Jews who have been expelled from Arab and Muslim countries in the Middle East. For the most part, these are the Israelis taking the hardest lines.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 04:08 PM

Still, it's curious so many people want to expel them. You'd think they'd develop a complex after a while.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 06:10 PM

It's amazing how many people claim to "speak for" Helen Thomas, interpreting what she really meant in her brief, though caustic statement.

She can't even do that! But, then I guess it's because of her age?
But, in her defense, even George Burns had difficulty keeping his much rehersed jokes straight at a similar age.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: DougR
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 07:17 PM

Kendall: You're not yet 90? Are you sure?

DougR
:>)


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Lox
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 08:24 PM

"As to the claim that one 'catter lived in more countries, than another, (possibly, their argument is thus superior)"

Ed T, the thing about threads that makes them interesting is that each post serves as a response, if not to the thread title, then to other posts in the thread.

Bearing that in mind, it is likely that a post halfway down the list is related in some way to a previous point.

In this way, threads simulate a clever from of communication called conversation.


In this case, I responded to a poster who had the idea that comparing who was best, moslems or Jews, would be useful to us.

When I pointed out what a trite load of onanistic indulgence this was, it was suggested to me that I might understand better if I broadened my horizons.

I illustrated that the poster in question was in no position to make such an observation.


There are many Monty Python sketches that apply here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 09:37 PM

Lox,
I was only hoping you would not make that particular point:)


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 11:33 AM

LoX: "In this case, I responded to a poster who had the idea that comparing who was best, moslems or Jews, would be useful to us."

..And I was merely answering a loaded and biased question, from 'Greg F.', as I've said before. Somehow you're acting like it's over your head, to see that, and then get all uppity.

Personally, the answer I provided, was dead on, to answer Greg's question, as asked.

You're the one who took it as a 'hatred' thing...which of course, was inaccurately taken wrong,...perhaps on purpose?...which is NOT my ISSUE, but yours!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 12:51 PM

Palestine has never been a country, but has been the name of that area from time immemorial, literally. Look at any map from prior to the rise of European "civilization" - old atlases, etc. It isn't just where Israel is now.


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Mudcat time: 27 May 10:02 PM EDT

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