BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 12:51 PM

Palestine has never been a country, but has been the name of that area from time immemorial, literally. Look at any map from prior to the rise of European "civilization" - old atlases, etc. It isn't just where Israel is now.

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 11:33 AM

LoX: "In this case, I responded to a poster who had the idea that comparing who was best, moslems or Jews, would be useful to us."

..And I was merely answering a loaded and biased question, from 'Greg F.', as I've said before. Somehow you're acting like it's over your head, to see that, and then get all uppity.

Personally, the answer I provided, was dead on, to answer Greg's question, as asked.

You're the one who took it as a 'hatred' thing...which of course, was inaccurately taken wrong,...perhaps on purpose?...which is NOT my ISSUE, but yours!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 09:37 PM

Lox,
I was only hoping you would not make that particular point:)

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Lox
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 08:24 PM

"As to the claim that one 'catter lived in more countries, than another, (possibly, their argument is thus superior)"

Ed T, the thing about threads that makes them interesting is that each post serves as a response, if not to the thread title, then to other posts in the thread.

Bearing that in mind, it is likely that a post halfway down the list is related in some way to a previous point.

In this way, threads simulate a clever from of communication called conversation.


In this case, I responded to a poster who had the idea that comparing who was best, moslems or Jews, would be useful to us.

When I pointed out what a trite load of onanistic indulgence this was, it was suggested to me that I might understand better if I broadened my horizons.

I illustrated that the poster in question was in no position to make such an observation.


There are many Monty Python sketches that apply here.

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: DougR
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 07:17 PM

Kendall: You're not yet 90? Are you sure?

DougR
:>)

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 06:10 PM

It's amazing how many people claim to "speak for" Helen Thomas, interpreting what she really meant in her brief, though caustic statement.

She can't even do that! But, then I guess it's because of her age?
But, in her defense, even George Burns had difficulty keeping his much rehersed jokes straight at a similar age.

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 04:08 PM

Still, it's curious so many people want to expel them. You'd think they'd develop a complex after a while.

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,C. Ham
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 03:45 PM

Stringsinger,

You keep saying Helen Thomas said the Jews "should get the hell out of Gaza."

She didn't say that. She said they should "should get the hell out of Palestine."

When Helen tals about Palestine, she is not talking about an independent country of Palestine (that has yet to exist) or about the Palestinian territories of Gaza and the West Bank; she is talking about Israel proper. Those that do not accept that Israel should be its own country refer to the whole area as Palestine. Look at any map published by Hamas or even the PLO.

When she says go back to Germany and Poland, this is a direct reference to the Holocaust.

BTW, the majority of the Jews now living in Israel are (or are descendents of) Jews who have been expelled from Arab and Muslim countries in the Middle East. For the most part, these are the Israelis taking the hardest lines.

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 03:19 PM

As to the claim that one 'catter lived in more countries, than another, (possibly, their argument is thus superior)...I suggest one should consider the following, (thanks to our friends at Monty Python):

Host: Good evening and welcome to Stake Your Claim. First this evening we have Mr Norman Voles of Gravesend who claims he wrote all Shakespeare's works. Mr Voles, I understand you claim that you wrote all those plays normally attributed to Shakespeare?
Voles (Michael Palin) : That is correct. I wrote all his plays and my wife and I wrote his sonnets.

Host: Mr Voles, these plays are known to have been performed in the early 17th century. How old are you, Mr Voles?

Voles: 43.

Host: Well, how is it possible for you to have written plays performed over 300 years before you were born?

Voles: Ah well. This is where my claim falls to the ground. There's no possible way of answering that argument, I'm afraid. I was only hoping you would not make that particular point, but I can see you're more than a match for me!

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: EBarnacle
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 02:44 PM

Riginslinger, you have raised one of the ingrained issues.

"it's a wonder they don't do something to make themselves a little more popular with their neighbors"

There are several issues here:
1: Why aren't "they" more like us? If you go back to the Bible, when we accepted the designation by the Lord, it is stated that we shall be a people apart, adhering to G-D's laws. Many Jews still follow this principle.

2: The eternal blame for Christ's death/The Wandering Jew/the eternal guilt as a people, etc. This should have been allowed to die out but there are always haters among us who look for scapegoats, especially among those who are not like them or otherwise stand out.

3: There are quite a few of these issues and variations and, if you really want to spend a day or three discussing this question, which has troubled people for centuries, PM me and I will give you the house phone number. If you will be at Old Songs, I expect to have plenty of leisure there between assignments. If you are there on Sunday, we can invite Rabbi Sol to join us and really thrash this out.

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 01:52 PM

Yeah, given that long list of the places the Jews have been kicked out of, it's a wonder they don't do something to make themselves a little more popular with their neighbors.

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 01:05 PM

OK, folks, back to the thread...

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 01:46 AM

or poo-poo

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 01:38 AM

Or "Wibble wibble!"

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: mousethief
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 01:09 AM

Or dum-dum.

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 10:24 PM

Quite the hissy-fit, GUEST Guest. Try breathing into a paper bag for a while. They you might try addressing the question. Or not.

(Is Guest-Guest something like Major Major, I wonder?)

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: number 6
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 10:17 PM

"I'm guessing the mid-east is soewhere to the right of the mid-west"

New Jersey, New York City ???

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: EBarnacle
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 06:27 PM

OK, children, quit the personal fights and stick to issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 04:27 PM

I'm guessing the mid-east is soewhere to the right of the mid-west ...

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 12:06 PM

I know that. Jeez!, you're always projecting people to be stupid!

Did you find the people in Israel actively hating Muslims? ..or just wary of them?..I know that security going in and out, can be 'less than congenial'. You know as well as I, that they are pretty suspicious of virtually anyone, coming in, searching their packs, luggage, etc etc..,but on the other hand I couldn't blame them. Look at what they're having to deal with....fair enough?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 12:00 PM

Yes I've been to the middle east - several times - PS it isn't a country but a region and there are quite a lot of countries there.

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 11:56 AM

LOX: "GfS - I've lived in around 37 countries worldwide ..."

I take it that Israel, or the mid-east was one of them?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 11:49 AM

"You need to get out more..take a trip."

GfS - I've lived in around 37 countries worldwide ...

... where have you been your whole life?

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 11:46 AM

No, LOX. The question posed by Greggie was a loaded question to begin with. I don't think anyone is 'APPLAUDING' Israel, as the question was asked, in the first place...which no on called him on..until now! That being said, I suppose one of the problems is, that soft, spoiled, self absorbed brats, can't seem to fathom, is what it is like to grow up in a small country, surrounded by your enemies, who want you wiped off the planet, and be living day to day with either, the threat of missiles raining on you, indiscriminately, or them actually falling into your cities! Just imagine that.

Now that that has been said, Yes, I'd love for peace to prevail in the mid-east, but they don't have the right of freedom of religion over there that we do...except in Israel! There, Muslims AND Jews can live side by side...but not so, in the surrounding countries!

You need to get out more..take a trip. Take a look..you and Greggie both. Get an idea what the fuck you're talking about...instead of adopting stupid alignments of political agendas!

Oh, and by the way, Helen Thomas was WAY out of line, with her 'just as stupid' comment!

Waving at ya'

GfS

P.S. Maybe another time to vent your stupid biases at me. Today just isn't your day!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 10:24 AM

Cheeky Monkey :-P

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 09:53 AM

"And your answer was to compare who is better - Moslems or Jews. You sad deluded person."

               I agree, Lox; they're both awful.

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 09:52 AM

Moslems - ONE BILLION TWO HUNDRED MILLION or 20% of the world's population. They have received the following Nobel Prizes:

             RE: Physics: Has anyone working on the Iranian nuclear project been nominated for a Nobel Prize? If not, why not?

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 09:12 AM

"Query: Why is theocracy as it exists in Iran or with the Taliban roundly condemned, while Israel is universally applauded?" "

And your answer was to compare who is better - Moslems or Jews.

You sad deluded person.

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 08:47 AM

Correction of a typo:

LOX, Your prejudice and contempt has made you a complete idiot! I was merely answering 'Greg F's' question. YOU turned it into a projection of YOUR contempt for the truth, if it gets in the way of your bias!!!! Take a look:

"From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM

Query: Why is theocracy as it exists in Iran or with the Taliban roundly condemned, while Israel is universally applauded?"

NOW YOU HAVE SHOWN WHERE YOU ARE!! Maybe time to reconsider ingesting the crap you let into yourself, eh?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 08:44 AM

LOX, Your prejudice and made you a complete idiot! I was merely answering 'Greg F's' question. YOU turned it into a projection of YOUR contempt for the truth, if it gets in the way of your bias!!!! Take a look:

"From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM

Query: Why is theocracy as it exists in Iran or with the Taliban roundly condemned, while Israel is universally applauded?"

NOW YOU HAVE SHOWN WHERE YOU ARE!! Maybe time to reconsider ingesting the crap you let into yourself, eh?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Lox
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 07:12 AM

GfS,

Your puerile and infantile comparison of the relative value of Jews and Moslems deserves only one reponse.

Contempt.

Is that what you think this argument boils down to?

Who is better?

Well let me tell you something.

99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of msolems and Jews are better than YOU in every way.

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 01:51 AM

Here Greggie, I'll help you!!!!!

The Global Islamic (Muslim) population is approximately 1,200,000,000

ONE BILLION TWO HUNDRED MILLION or 20% of the world's population.

They have received the following Nobel Prizes:

                      Literature:
                      1988 - Najib Mahfooz

                      Peace:
                      1978 - Mohamed Anwar El-Sadat
                      1994 - Yaser Arafat:
                      1990 - Elias James Corey
                      1999 - Ahmed Zewai

                      Economics: (zero)

                      Physics: (zero)

                      Medicine:
                      1960 - Peter Brian Medawar
                      1998 - Ferid Mourad

                      TOTAL: 7 SEVEN



____________________________________________________________________________

The Global Jewish population is approximately 14,000,000
-- ONLY FOURTEEN MILLION or about 0.02% of the world's population.

They have received the following Nobel Prizes:

                      Literature:

                      1910 - Paul Heyse
                      1927 - Henri Bergson
                      1958 - Boris Pasternak
                      1966 - Shmuel Yosef Agnon
                      1966 - Nelly Sachs
                      1976 - Saul Bellow
                      1978 - Isaac Bashevis Singer
                      1981 - Elias Canetti
                      1987 - Joseph Brodsky
                      1991 - Nadine Gordimer World

                      Peace:
                      1911 - Alfred Fried
                      1911 - Tobias Michael Carel Asser
                      1968 - Rene Cassin
                      1973 - Henry Kissinger
                      1978 - Menachem Begin
                      1986 - Elie Wiesel
                      1994 - Shimon Peres
                      1994 - Yitzhak Rabin

                      Physics:
                      1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer
                      1906 - Henri Moissan
                      1907 - Albert Abraham Michelson
                      1908 - Gabriel Lippmann
                      1910 - Otto Wallach
                      1915 - Richard Willstaetter
                      1918 - Fritz Haber
                      1921 - Albert Einstein
                      1922 - Niels Bohr
                      1925 - James Franck
                      1925 - Gustav Hertz
                      1943 - Gustav Stern
                      1943 - George Charles de Hevesy
                      1944 - Isidor Issac Rabi
                      1952 - Felix Bloch
                      1954 - Max Born
                      1958 - Igor Tamm
                      1959 - Emilio Segre
                      1960 - Don ald A. Glaser
                      1961 - Robert Hofstadter
                      1961 - Melvin Calvin
                      1962 - Lev Davidovich Landau
                      1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz
                      1965 - Richard Phil lips Feynman
                      1965 - Julian Schwinger
                      1969 - Murray Gell-Mann
                      1971 - Dennis Gabor
                      1972 - William Howard Stein
                      1973 - Brian David Joseph son
                      1975 - Benjamin Mottleson
                      1976 - Burton Richter
                      1977 - Ilya Prigogine
                      1978 - Arno Allan Penzias
                      1978 - Peter L Kapitza
                      1979 - Stephen Weinberg
                      1979 - Sheldon Glashow
                      1979 - Herbert Charles Brown
                      1980 - Paul Berg
                      1980 - Walter Gilbert
                      1981 - Roald Hoffmann
                      1982 - Aaron Klug
                      1985 - Albert A. Hauptman
                      1985 - Jerome Karle
                      1986 - Dudley R. Herschbach
                      1988 - Robert Huber
                      1988 - Leon Lederman
                      1988 - Melvin Schwartz
                      1988 - Jack Steinberger
                      1989 - Sidney Altman
                      1990 - Jerome Friedman
                      1992 - Rudolph Marcus
                      1995 - Martin Perl
                      2000 - Alan J. Heeger

                      Economics:
                      1970 - Paul Anthony Samuelson
                      1971 - Simon Kuznets
                      1972 - Kenneth Joseph Arrow
                      1975 - Leonid Kantorovich
                      1976 - Mil ton Friedman
                      1978 - Herb ert A. Simon
                      1980 - Lawrence Robert Klein
                      1985 - Franco Modigliani
                      1987 - Robert M. Solow
                      1990 - Harry Markowitz
                      1 990 - Merton Miller
                      1992 - Gary Becker
                      1993 - Robert Fogel

                      Medicine:
                      1908 - Elie Metchnikoff
                      1908 - Paul Erlich
                      1914 - Robert Barany
                      1922 - Otto Meyerhof
                      1930 - Karl Landsteiner
                      1931 - Otto Warburg
                      1936 - Otto Loewi
                      1944 - Joseph Erlanger
                      1944 - Herb ert Spencer Gasser
                      1945 - Ernst Boris Chain
                      1946 - Hermann Joseph Muller
                      1950 - Tadeus Reichstein
                      1952 - Selman Abra ham Waksman
                      1953 - Hans Krebs
                      1953 - Fritz Albert Lipmann
                      1958 - Joshua Lederberg
                      1959 - Arthur Kornberg
                      1964 - Konrad Bloch
                      1965 - Francois Jacob
                      1965 - Andre Lwoff
                      1967 - George Wald
                      1968 - Marshall W. Nirenberg
                      1969 - Salvador Luria
                      1970 - Julius Axelrod
                      1970 - Sir Bernard Katz
                      1972 - Gerald Maurice Ed elman
                      1975 - Howard Martin Temin
                      1976 - Baruch S. Blumberg
                      1977 - Roselyn Sussman Yalow
                      1978 - Daniel Nathans
                      1980 - Baruj Benacerraf
                      1984 - Cesar Milstein
                      1985 - Michael Stuart Brown
                      1985 - Joseph L. Goldstein
                      1986 - Stanley Cohen [& Rita Levi-Montalcini]
                      1988 - Gertrude Elion
                      1989 - Harold Varmus
                      1991 - Erwin Neher
                      1991 - Bert Sakmann
                      1993 - Richard J. Roberts
                      1993 - Phillip Sharp
                      1994 - Alfred Gilman
                      1995 - Edward B. Lewis

                      TOTAL: 129    ONE HUNDRED TWENTY NINE!


Jews are NOT promoting brain washing children in military training camps, teaching them how to blow themselves up and cause maximum deaths of Jews and other non-Muslims!

Jews don't hijack planes, nor kill athletes at the Olympics, or blow themselves up in German restaurants. There is NOT one single Jew that has destroyed a church. There is NOT a single Jew
that protests by killing people.

The Jews don't traffic slaves, nor have leaders calling for Jihad and death to all the non-Islam infidels.

Perhaps the world's Muslims should consider investing more in standard education and less in blaming the Jews for all their problems.

Muslims must ask 'what can they do for humankind' before they demand that humankind respects them!

Regardless of your feelings about the crisis between Israel and the Palestinians and Arab neighbors, even if you believe there is more culpability on Israel 's part, the following two sentences really say it
all:

'If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence.   If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel ' -Benjamin Netanyahu

Okay???

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 11:21 PM

Hey Greg?...How's that list comin'?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: pdq
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 05:05 PM

"Um - the moslems were way, way ahead of Europe in medicine and science long before the invention of the Nobel prize."

As stated, not true.

The Arabs and perhaps the Turks were ahead of Europe in some ways, such as math and astronomey, but that was before Islam.

After about 700 AD, the progress stopped and many cultures went backwards, thanks to Islam.

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 04:24 PM

Her tail was between her legs, Frank, if she caved at the first amount of pressure and retired. She didn't stay and fight, or at least argue with folks for a while.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 03:50 PM

She didn't retire with a "tail between her legs". She stated unequivocally that Israel "should get the hell out of Gaza". That is not cowardice but conviction and I agree with that.

As to the other part of her statement, that was not well-thought and somewhat ambiguous. But it does bring into question whether Israel can continue to exist with an unsustainable Likkud Party bias.

As to the "political gaffes of the Israeli government", these are not gaffes but deep-seated
paranoid policies that have been in place for too many years.

A complete rethinking of Israeli-Palestinian policy has to be made before WWIII is triggered.

The U.S. censuring of the Goldstone Report was short-sighted in the same way that the congress devalued ACORN on the basis of a hoax.

Will Israel get its act together remains to be seen. Hamas, democratically elected, has to be met by Israel and not the palliative of Abbas. In the meantime, the U.S. should not be apologists for Israel. Or for that matter, the aggression of Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 12:46 PM

Okay, now. I've skimmed through this thread, and don't see mention of the National Public Radio story about this episode.

Am I the only one who was paying attention when they said that Helen Thomas is the daughter of parents who immigrated from Lebanon? And that she might just hold a typical opinion about the placement of Israel in the Middle East as one that she grew up with?

It was indiscreet to share that non-politically-correct opinion in a setting, however informal, where she was being filmed. As the NPR folks said in another article "she missed her exit." She should have retired on top, not left with her tail between her legs, but I know of a lot of descendants of Middle Eastern nations who share that anti-Israel sentiment. Perhaps if Israel had settled down and treated their neighbors and the Palestinians with respect every time peace talks occurred she would have changed her mind. As a Middle East descendant, watching how the Palestinians are treated and their lands continually appropriated, I can fully understand her frustration.

And no, viewing the political gaffes of the Israeli government does not make one an anti-Semite. As much as they will raise that cry, any time they misbehave.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 10:49 AM

Um - the moslems were way, way ahead of Europe in medicine and science long before the invention of the Nobel prize.

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 09:04 AM

Sorry...itwas late and I seemed to have lost one link. However, one is below, and another new one is below that one.

http://www.english.emory.edu/Bahri/Part.html


Another perspective..."There Was No "Partition":

However you view history (independance or partiition by the British) in the area (India-Pakistan), there was significant strife in the area following events of 1947. There seems to be no doubt that religeon played a major part.



http://pakhistorian.com/2009/10/12/partition-depicts-division-of-a-whole-1947-was-not-partition/

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Riginslinger
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 08:40 AM

And the decision as to who has controls of the levers of power that announce and present such awards is in whose hands?

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 12:24 AM

Oh, by the way, Greg, Israel, and the Jewish population of the planet is a minuscule fraction of the Muslim population!!

Find any difference in the size of your search, yet?????

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 11:55 PM

Greg F: "Query: Why is theocracy as it exists in Iran or with the Taliban roundly condemned, while Israel is universally applauded?"

Hint: Make a list of Muslim contributors to medicine, physics, inventors, Nobel laureates, entertainment..or any sector of civilization, on the planet.

Now make a list of Jewish contributors of the same.

Now compare them.

the rest is up to you!

Happy Hunting!
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Janie
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 11:46 PM

Thanks, Ed. The link gives me a message that URL not found. When I cut and pasted the url below the link, I got a similar message and then a redirect to the home page for the journal. Can you either try to post the link again, or post enough reference info. regarding the article that I can search for it in the journal archives?

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 11:01 PM

Two good examples of nationforming on the basis of religeon are the partition of the Indian subcontinent, and the Balkans.

One example, the Indian subcontinent:

"1947, saw India divided in two countries with Pakistan as an Islamic state and India as a secular one. The process of partition had claimed many lives and injuries. The volume of migration partition formed the largest and most spatially concentrated streams of refugees in modern history. 15 million refugees poured across the borders to regions completely foreign to them, for though they were Hindu or Muslim, their identity had been embedded in the regions where there ancestors were from.

Many years after the partition, the two nations are still trying to heal the wounds left behind by this incision to once-whole body of India. Many are still in search of an identity and a history left behind beyond an impenetrable boundary. The two countries started of with ruined economies and lands and without an established, experienced system of government. They lost many of their most dynamic leaders, such as Gandhi, Jinnah and Allama Iqbal, soon after the partition. Pakistan had to face the separation of Bangladesh in 1971. India and Pakistan have been to war twice since the partition and they are still deadlocked over the issue of possession of Kashmir. The same issues of boundaries and divisions, Hindu and Muslim majorities and differences, still persist in Kashmir."

Sources:

1947 partition of the Indian subcontinent

a href="http://jrs.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/8/2/185">http://jrs.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/8/2/185

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: GUEST,Riginslinger
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 10:30 PM

"Why is theocracy as it exists in Iran or with the Taliban roundly condemned, while Israel is universally applauded?"


                It certainly doesn't seem to be applauded here...

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Janie
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 06:40 PM

Lox,

I am cognizant of the post to which you were responding.

Your inguiry asks one to cogently consider what the core issue may be, without regard to what may have stimulated you to form the inquiry.

In the real world, it is actions (or behaviors, which ever term one prefers,)   that ultimately matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Lox
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 05:59 PM

Janie,

You have found an interesting interpretation of my question, but I'm afraid that as much as would love to take credit for a valuable insight, I was actually only respondng very specifically to an earlier post which I found ambiguous.

See Mrrzy's post of 11 Jun 10 - 04:51 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Janie
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 05:41 PM

I don't think it is universally applauded, Greg.

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM

Query: Why is theocracy as it exists in Iran or with the Taliban roundly condemned, while Israel is universally applauded?

Subject: RE: BS: Helen Thomas - We Will Miss Her
From: Janie
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 05:14 PM

I agree with you, Frank, but the notion of the separation of church and state is a Western idea, evolved from the history of Western culture and experience.   I think we have to accept the reality that the history of Eastern and Mid-Eastern thought has followed a different evolutionary path.


That is why I value Lox's question(s), is the question about whether or not religion is a good reason to create a nation?

Or is it asking whether a nations (sic) actions can be excused by its religious beliefs?