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restored Salvation Army Concertina

GUEST,Bob Tedrow 12 Jun 10 - 11:11 AM
Bernard 12 Jun 10 - 02:27 PM
GUEST 12 Jun 10 - 03:03 PM
Gurney 12 Jun 10 - 06:24 PM
vectis 12 Jun 10 - 06:25 PM
Guran 13 Jun 10 - 01:36 PM
GUEST 13 Jun 10 - 03:14 PM
Gurney 13 Jun 10 - 04:19 PM
Alan Day 13 Jun 10 - 06:20 PM
Bernard 13 Jun 10 - 07:05 PM
Gurney 14 Jun 10 - 01:17 AM
Jack Campin 14 Jun 10 - 03:44 AM
GUEST 14 Jun 10 - 01:36 PM
Bernard 14 Jun 10 - 05:15 PM
Bernard 14 Jun 10 - 05:23 PM
Guran 15 Jun 10 - 02:03 AM
Bernard 15 Jun 10 - 04:16 AM
Bob Bolton 15 Jun 10 - 06:25 PM
Bob Bolton 15 Jun 10 - 09:41 PM
Guran 16 Jun 10 - 03:03 AM
Bob Bolton 17 Jun 10 - 12:32 AM
GUEST,Bob 17 Jun 10 - 12:27 PM
Guran 17 Jun 10 - 01:42 PM
GUEST 19 Jun 10 - 11:51 AM
Guran 19 Jun 10 - 12:36 PM
The Sandman 19 Jun 10 - 12:46 PM
The Sandman 19 Jun 10 - 12:51 PM
Bernard 19 Jun 10 - 02:36 PM
Guran 20 Jun 10 - 08:21 AM
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Subject: restored Salvation Army Concertina
From: GUEST,Bob Tedrow
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 11:11 AM

Just showing off a recent accomplishment

http://hmi.homewood.net/salvationarmy/

regards,

Bob


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Subject: RE: restored Salvation Army Concertina
From: Bernard
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 02:27 PM

Clicky thing

Very nice! How does it sound?


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Subject: RE: restored Salvation Army Concertina
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 03:03 PM

It is a g/d and has a nice midrange timbre.


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Subject: RE: restored Salvation Army Concertina
From: Gurney
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 06:24 PM

Very nice. I thought the Sallies only used Englishes, like mine.
Like the bellows!


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Subject: RE: restored Salvation Army Concertina
From: vectis
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 06:25 PM

I though Sallies used Triumph duets. Rare and very good.


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Subject: RE: restored Salvation Army Concertina
From: Guran
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 01:36 PM

From: Gurney - PM
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 06:24 PM
"I thought the Sallies only used Englishes...".
Subject: RE: restored Salvation Army Concertina
From: vectis - PM
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 06:25 PM
"I though Sallies used Triumph duets.."

Hi guys,
Common misunderstandings I believe. Naturally Anglos most likely have been more common generally speaking in SA as everywhere else in the concertina world. Just consider the production figures - but exact numbers of course difficult to find. One factor that often is forgotten is that SA officers with common musical education or experience from other instruments, who sometimes have used the concertina in a more developed/advanced musical way - including concertina band work - naturally gradually have aquired more advanced instruments as well like englishes and duets, while SA soldiers more often may have used their concertinas for simple song accompaniment or together with small ensambles, a trumpet, a horn and a drum for instance. In these minor brass combos the concertina had to be in high pitch and preferrably if being an anglo in the standard keys Ab/Eb. I have had about a dozen of bascially the same model as your one here Bob, with the "SA" in the fretwork as well. They have ALL been Ab/Eb and high pitch (a 452,5) however so I guess yours might have been tuned down to become G/D - has it?


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Subject: RE: restored Salvation Army Concertina
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 03:14 PM

Judging from the appearance of the reeds, I suspect it has been repitched.
Bob


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Subject: RE: restored Salvation Army Concertina
From: Gurney
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 04:19 PM

An idea. When I checked the tuning on mine with what is, I suspect, a very accurate tuner, I found that the louder/harder you play, the flatter the note becomes. To me it is logical that, as the Sallies played outside and loud, they would order their concertinas in a slightly sharper-than-concert pitch, so that they would go 'right' in playing.

Do instruments with larger reeds do this, I wonder?


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Subject: RE: restored Salvation Army Concertina
From: Alan Day
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 06:20 PM

Yes if you force air through a reed you can bend the sound.
Rainer Susmilch in Germany is expert at using this to effect.
Al


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Subject: RE: restored Salvation Army Concertina
From: Bernard
Date: 13 Jun 10 - 07:05 PM

Not quite...! Older instruments were higher pitched simply because that was the standard - almost a semitone up. Flutes, clarinets and other fixed pitch instruments were also produced in 'Band pitch' (as it is now known), and they aren't so easy to satisfactorily re-tune... although you may make the tube long enough, the holes aren't quite in the right places, so the instrument will tend only to work on its own, not in an ensemble. Brass instruments aren't such a problem unless the tuning crooks aren't long enough...

Pipe organs were also built in a higher pitch, but there was a financial reason - higher pitched pipes require less metal (or wood), and the 'spotted metal' was, and still is, fairly expensive, being a mix of lead and tin (similar to solder).

It is standard practice when tuning an accordion (and other free reed instruments), to make the lower pitched bass reeds a few cents sharp so that they blow into tune, so I can understand where you're coming from. This was explained to me many years ago by Willy Daneker, reed man at Bell Accordions (Hohner's UK outlet). Bell Accordions is long gone (Allodi of Lewisham bought the stock), but I'd be interested to know if Willy is still around.


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Subject: RE: restored Salvation Army Concertina
From: Gurney
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 01:17 AM

Yes, Bernard, I knew about what we used to call 'old concert,' but I fancied that the SA instruments were even higher. Maybe it was just that, a fancy.
Can't tell from my English, it had been retuned before I got it from Ron Shuttleworth, 'Attics to Addicts.'
Speaking of fancy:
Your comment about fixed pitch instruments reminded me; at one time Her Indoors fancied the clarinet, so I obtained one for her, and it was indeed in the higher pitch. Didn't matter, her fancy died away, and we let it go to an enthusiastic youngster. The kid's parent had a new...er..the section that the reed attaches to, turned up in ebony to retune it.
Beautifully made instrument.


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Subject: RE: restored Salvation Army Concertina
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 03:44 AM

You can't retune a clarinet by a semitone simply by fitting a different barrel. Some notes will be okay but most of the range will be out of tune.

I have a beautiful 19th century C clarinet in high pitch. Which makes it a C# clarinet. I don't have anybody to play it with except a local country singer who habitually capos up into very strange keys. It would be nice if festivals had a fringe session for instruments a semitone away from modern civilization.


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Subject: RE: restored Salvation Army Concertina
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 01:36 PM

Bernard:"It is standard practice when tuning an accordion (and other free reed instruments), to make the lower pitched bass reeds a few cents sharp so that they blow into tune"

RE: I can't quite agree.You don't "make them a few cents sharp" since the point is that the pitch stability vs amplitude is gradually less for lower range reeds and the aberration in the low octave of a treble english may be 5-10 cent while in a baritone up to say 20cent so you usually decide a common testing air pressure for the instrument and set the pitch straight according to that but you may of course decide the balanced pressure/amplitude differently and to some part according to the expected individual use.
Because of this any free reed instrument can only be "in tune" at one specific pressure/amplitude - a certain disadvantage but fortunately we often don't bother a lot subjectively when they are out of tune...


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Subject: RE: restored Salvation Army Concertina
From: Bernard
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 05:15 PM

Willy Daneker was THE Hohner reed man in this country. He advised me to do it that way, and he's tuned more accordions than you or I have had hot dinners. Like it or not, it works AND is standard practice.

Whilst the point you make may be correct in theory, practice always takes other factors into account.

Example... people always quote Ohms Law when working out the power output of an amplifier... an amplifier that delivers 100 watts at 4 ohms delivers 50 watts at 8 ohms according to Ohms Law... in reality, Total Harmonic Distortion plays a part, and the true power could be as much as 75 watts.

Sorry to use a completely different example, but I think it makes the point...


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Subject: RE: restored Salvation Army Concertina
From: Bernard
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 05:23 PM

Oh bloody hell! GUEST is my old adversary Guran, isn't he!

I'M OUT OF HERE!


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Subject: RE: restored Salvation Army Concertina
From: Guran
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 02:03 AM

Bernard,
Never mind! - I'm IN although I accidentally didn't notice that I wasn't signed in for the latest message.Sorry for unintentionally having inspired you to respond seriousloy all the same... I was definitely talking about practise and not theory when saying that we fortunately don't notice how much "out of tune" our intruments may be when playing even if they seem to be *in tune* when tried in a test bench at one certain pressure. Since as I said the aberration from the set pitch can be as much as 20cent when playing loud it is not meaningful trying to compensate for that when tuning.It only does not work unless imagination helps. Simple practise.


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Subject: RE: restored Salvation Army Concertina
From: Bernard
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 04:16 AM

;o)


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Subject: RE: restored Salvation Army Concertina
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 06:25 PM

G'day Gurney, Vectis (& Guran),

I'm afraid the 20th century perception of the Sally Army's concertina bands completely smothers there vast and widespread use of the simple, joyous German and (later) Anglo-German concertinas that its working class reruits could afford and, quickly, play.

Dan Worrall's comprehensive new 2-volume book The Anglo-German Concertina - A Social History devotes an entire section to the Sallys ... and includes several 19th century photographs of the Booth family women (the founding family of the Salvation Army) who were renowned for their presentation - both on stage and at Salvationist meetings - of hymn tunes ... proudly holding their gleaming Jeffries Anglo-chromatics!

Unfortunately the Sallys eventually succumbed the the "Bandmaster Syndrome" ... a subset of British militarism.

Regard(les)s,

Bob


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Subject: RE: restored Salvation Army Concertina
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 09:41 PM

G'day again,

I guess I should have posted a "blue clicky" for Dan's excellent and meticulously researched book ...

Anglo Concer - Social History

As an Australian deeply interested in the folk traditions ... not the ruling class assumptions ... I greatly value Dan's work in showing how widespread were these "people's" instruments ... and how much they disturbed entrenched views about the ownership, rights, styles and 'standards' of musical performance. I have had first-hand experience of the way that any musical aspirations of those who didn't have the right scrap of paper (... degree ... or birth certificate ...!) could not be considered as part of the musical foundation of their society. This is a book for those who claim their rights to their traditions and music!

I am pleased to have helped Dan on some aspects of the Australian place in the age of the Anglo-German concertina ... and chuffed to see that we have, one way and another, done a good job of keeping the people's traditions alive into the 21st century.

Regards,

Bob


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Subject: RE: restored Salvation Army Concertina
From: Guran
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 03:03 AM

Bob Bolton - PM
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 06:25 PM
"I'm afraid the 20th century perception of the Sally Army's concertina bands completely smothers there vast and widespread use of the simple, joyous German and (later) Anglo-German concertinas that its working class reruits could afford and, quickly, play".

Exactly ! and another factor that may have influenced the common misunderstandings regarding the assumed domination of englishes and duets is that the SA officers who have promoted the concertina for instance in the SA publications "The Salvationist" and "The Musician" have been english or duet players themselves.I can speak as fairly initiated(being brought up in the "army") regarding the situation in Sweden and there has been a definite domination of Anglos here as far as can be seen (but among soldiers!) while the english in the heydays of the 1930s was used more or less by almost every cadet for some period and later becoming a second instrument for many of them.The ("Triumph") Duet preenteds 1912 as particularly suited for SA work never became the succeess as intended. ( some SA brass instruments of their own makes were labeled "Triumph" as well)


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Subject: RE: restored Salvation Army Concertina
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 12:32 AM

G'day Guran,

Yes ... we also need to remember the (Butterworth - inventor) / Crane (introducer to SA) / Triumph (SA house brand) duet. Apparently these were originally sold to the SA by Crane ... and eventually made by several firms, and branded "Triumph" to SA specifications.

I guess that I was nailing my colours to the mast ... the Anglo(-German) concertina being a cornerstone of 19th century musical expression by the ordinary people - including those who came in as lowly recruits to the SA.

The inherent simple harmony of the Anglo-German key pattern allowed vigorous, rhythmic and reasonably harmonised accompaniment to local and informal dances ... right out to the limits of our Outback ... and underpins much of the 1950s revival of "Bush Music". Naturally, it was despised by those of the 'bandmaster' mind-set ... often in very foul-mouthed terms!

I'm working on my modern day SA acquaintances ... although I think we have permanently lost the younger daughter f the house to the English system!

Regards,

Bob


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Subject: RE: restored Salvation Army Concertina
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 12:27 PM

I have added a sound file and a few more images of that concertina
Blue clicky
http://hmi.Homewood.net/salvationarmy


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Subject: RE: restored Salvation Army Concertina
From: Guran
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 01:42 PM

Bob (Tedrow) Very nice work indeed but I have to ask you one question:
As you have modernized it quite a bit why have you kept the old buttons? If I interprete the photos right they are quite a bit worn as those original bone buttons use to be and a potential nuisance for the demanding player.Are they 6mm by the way as it seems? What about button bushings - there use to be none with the 6mm button models - and this can be quite ok but also a potential disadvantage.This can be a dilemma when "restoring/reconditioning" since as I do prefer 6mm buttons to 5mm ones it can be a problem getting snug fittings when bushing 6mm metal end frames since you may need to widen the metal holes a little as well.Any enlightening experiences?


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Subject: RE: restored Salvation Army Concertina
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 10 - 11:51 AM

My customer requested I retain the original buttons. As well, the lovely aged patina lends a visage of it's prior history.
Bob


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Subject: RE: restored Salvation Army Concertina
From: Guran
Date: 19 Jun 10 - 12:36 PM

Bob, well, if the owner/user is happy there is always a good reason but personally I am often surprised when the looks of a musical instrument may seem to get higher priority than musical qualities and technical functioning. The keyboard and action of concertinas really have always been weak points of the general construction and several improvements are possible. I have also been much surprised when I have found that quite advanced players haven't noticed considerable wear and uneveness in the action that might drive a pianist or even accordion player crazy in a comparable case.The irregular mechanism as a matter of fact is a technical nightmare.Almost all levers having different length and form, many have varing leverage, setting touch resistance, button travel etc is quite tricky.Jamming of parts is common etc


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Subject: RE: restored Salvation Army Concertina
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 10 - 12:46 PM

Subject: RE: restored Salvation Army Concertina
From: Bernard - PM
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 05:15 PM

"Willy Daneker was THE Hohner reed man in this country. He advised me to do it that way, and he's tuned more accordions than you or I have had hot dinners. Like it or not, it works AND is standard practice"
   his son [Anthony] makes excellent harmonicas and repairs them and lives in Lincolnshire[somebody has to].


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Subject: RE: restored Salvation Army Concertina
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 10 - 12:51 PM

Antony Dannecker Harmonicas
Dr. Antony Dannecker MA(Hons) DMus F.I.M.I.T.
Professional Harmonica Craftsman
Official Repair, Sales & Service Centre Based in the UK.

Antony Dannecker Harmonicas PortraitThe Dannecker family tradition with harmonicas started in 1895 in Germany with the appointment of engineer Carl Dannecker to the Hohner harmonica company. Carl then dedicated the rest of his working life to the technical development and manufacture of harmonicas. Over the years many other Dannecker family members, including Antony's father, the late great Willi Dannecker, have worked with the Hohner company and professional harmonica players right up to the present day with Antony Dannecker, professional harmonica craftsman and consultant for the Hohner company.

Antony's harmonicas are in constant demand the world over, especially in the united states of america where the outstanding quality of his harmonicas is legendary. Every single harmonica ordered is custom hand built personally by Antony and incorporates his numerous specialist refinements guaranteeing optimum air-tightness, reed responsiveness and fine tuning to the highest degree of accuracy for which he is world famous.

Antony continues the Dannecker tradition in the technical development of new and exciting harmonica projects. The introduction of the Dannecker Blues harmonica is a representation of over 100 years of Dannecker experience and know-how and has been received with critical acclaim from top harmonica stars the world over.

Soon to be launched is an exceptionally fine blues instrument constructed entirely from solid brass. This new harp called the Dannecker Blues Optimus is guaranteed to cause a major stir within the harmonica blues community. Antony now offers Dannecker Blues combs for the Hohner Marine Band and Special 20 Classic series - taking these outstanding harps to a new level of performance. Check out these 'Kompact" harps in my online shop. Antony undertakes all repairs, renovations, servicing and customisation personally, transforming your old harp into an outstanding musical instrument.
Antony's past and present client list includes:

    * The Late Larry Adler
    * Jean "Toots" Thielemans
    * Charlie McCoy
    * Bruce Willis
    * Andy Garcia
    * Sigmund Groven
    * The Yardbirds
    * Paul Jones
    * Arlo Guthrie

    * Huey "Power of Love" Lewis
    * Mark Feltham ( Nine Below Zero )
    * Paul Lamb ( & The Kingsnakes )
    * Charlie Musselwhite
    * Mike Harding
    * Joe Brown
    * Rolf Harris C.B.E.
    * Vivian Stanshall
    * Dame Evelyn Glennie O.B.E.
    # Dick   Miles


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Subject: RE: restored Salvation Army Concertina
From: Bernard
Date: 19 Jun 10 - 02:36 PM

Thanks for that, Dick!


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Subject: RE: restored Salvation Army Concertina
From: Guran
Date: 20 Jun 10 - 08:21 AM

Interesting survey Dick! It seems to confirm the location of Antony Dannecker's Official Repair, Sales & Service Centre Based in the UK. However it does not shed any light on Bernard's claim:
"Like it or not, it works AND is standard practice".
If by any chance someone is curious about that there are a few riddles to sort out still like : What works? How does it work? and How is the standard defined,established and documented?
Well - I am not all that curious myself, I remain having no illusions that *this* "works":
"make the lower pitched bass reeds a few cents sharp so that they blow into tune"
Sorry Bernard...!


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