Should good players play out?

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Jun 10 - 01:16 AM

Well spotted!! I missed that entirely in proof reading.

Ain't typos a snort?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 21 Jun 10 - 10:00 PM

Don - I think G. Gould should have made up his mind: either lay concrete or be a pianist. It's hard to do both. The concretizing can be murder on a concert pianist's hands. :>)

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Jun 10 - 04:34 PM

After some fifteen years of concretizing, the idiosyncratic Canadian concert pianist Glenn Gould decided that he really didn't enjoy going on concert tours. The constant traveling, the hotels, playing in different concert halls with sometimes good, sometimes rotten acoustics, the whole schtick. So he quit. Much to the general upset of a lot of audiences and music critics.

But then, he devoted himself to recording, and committed an incredible amount of piano literature to tape/vinyl/CD. Huge library of stuff.

Gould was once stopped by a traffic cop. When Gould asked why he'd been stopped, the cop said, "You just ran a red light back there." To which Gould responded, "But officer, I've stopped for a lot of green lights that that I haven't gotten credit for."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: WildBilly
Date: 21 Jun 10 - 04:21 PM

If you enjoy playing by tourself, who the hell cares. If music becomes competition, it loses its intrinsic value. play on!

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 21 Jun 10 - 04:17 PM

Quite a few different interesting observations here, before the personal invective, er, I mean, misunderstandings, started.

Some folks who are excellent players and/or singers are simply not motivated to "play out." I am reminded of the long ongoing discussion we've had about YouTube personality "fretkillr," a quite-good guitar player with a nice singing voice. So many of us assumed that he simply had to be someone famous, or at the very least, a professional session player accustomed to working with "big names."

I, on the other hand, have always figured that he's just as likely to be a complete unknown, perhaps someone who's been playing mostly alone and among a few close friends, someone who never wanted to go onstage, even in the friendliest small-time local venues, but who found an outlet, perhaps for the first time, by posting anonymous videos.

For those not already familiar, "fretkillr" never shows his face, only his guitar and his hands. Judging by his repertoire of familiar "cover songs," he's probably at least 50-55 years old, and been playing since his teens or early 20s.

It may be that, for years after first taking up his instrument, he truly was minimally competent, "not ready for prime time," and therefore gave up on any ambitions to play in public ~ but after decades of woodshedding on his own, he gradually became a much better musician but did not become any more interested in "playing out."

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 21 Jun 10 - 03:32 PM

Yes Dick, totally.

Always resorting to the ad hominem don't you? If you don't like a discussion you start throwing about 'laughable' 'clueless' 'idiot' 'you lack sense of a humour'. And you wonder why people think you're making a fool of yourself.

You know what the best thing is if you don't like the question put forward in a discussion? Go to another thread you do like and leave the one you don't like alone. Good luck, dick.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 10 - 02:30 PM

making a fool of myself? I was having a joke, but you seem to be entirely lacking in any sense of humour, so i am not surprised at your reaction.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 21 Jun 10 - 01:56 PM

The issue was touched on, on the Best English concertina thread. Which you may have read if you weren't busy making an fool of yourself by posting your own name to it.

Alan Day and others, including myself, thought it merited a separate discussion. Michael Sam Wild suggested Istarted the topic. And I did.

At the top of this thread I made it very clear I only used myself as an example and didn't want this to be about me. I am quite secure in my own situation and am not looking for advice. I am curious about different points of view, certainly given the few reactions I quoted earlier.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 10 - 01:32 PM

Peter, why have you started this thread?.
if you dont want to go out and play, stay at home, if you want to go out and play do so.
let others do what they want, and please stop asking banal questions.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 21 Jun 10 - 01:25 PM

Dick Miles' last resort. As per usual.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 10 - 01:24 PM

and you should stop being a bloody idiot.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 21 Jun 10 - 01:16 PM

I was responding to the previous post Dick. You really should learn to read and understand what's written before you hit the caps lock.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 10 - 01:04 PM

no PETER. That is an over simplification, I get asked to go out and sing and play,and get paid for it,I do it because I enjoy it and because people think I am worth going to see, I do not do it because I want to show off.
I recently did three gigs in England, they were well received, and I enjoyed myself the audiences also enjoyed my performances, I spend hours practising my material, and I resent people who say that I do it to show off,Ido it because it gives pleasure to other people and because i enjoy playing.
I also enjoy playing for my own pleasure, when it comes to tunes i sometimes enjoy it more than going to a session, because i dont have to put up with someone who has a rhythym problem, or some bad djembe drummer, however i have had some great tune sessions ,these days I ALWAYS GO EXPECTING IT NOT TO BE GOOD ,THEN INVARIABLY I AM PLEASANTLY SURPRISED.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 21 Jun 10 - 12:17 PM

Could it be those players who are happy just to play for and with their friends do not feel the need to go out and show they can do better?

It seems to me going out just to show the world you can do better than others is a pretty poor motivation for playing music in public.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Steve Howlett
Date: 21 Jun 10 - 11:24 AM

"Good players should stay at home basking in the light of their own genius, so poor to middling players (like me) sound better in public."

Corona.

And really crap players should play in public to encourage those hovering in the wings to think "#$%@ me! If I can't do better than that I'll stand shooting!", and get out there and play themselves!

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 21 Jun 10 - 10:13 AM

I have to say that since I started to get interested in folky stuff, I now know quite a number of songs that lend themselves to being sung unaccompanied, and would acquit myself much better if the scene was repeated today. WHETHER I should inflict them on anyne is another matter :-)

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 21 Jun 10 - 09:42 AM

Ebbie: It doesn't have to be a music party for you to be "expected" to contribute at Russian social events.

I was with a mainly Russian group of geophysicists some while back and once the Vodka had gone round a coul eof times and a few pickled gherkins been eaten, the singing and recitation started.

They were astonished at how few "traditional" songs (that could be sung unaccompanied) the Brit contingent knew. Between us we managed "Wild Rover" and I had a crack at "Ilkla Moor Baht 'At" but the few other songs we tried petered out after a verse or two in forgotten lyrics.

By contrast, all the Russians seemed to know dozens. And they could recite great long screeds of poetry...usually Russian, but often also the translation into English. And quote great chunks of literature in both languages. I was the *only* one in the Brit contingent to be able to recite any poems ( Kipling's "Smuggler's Song" and "Puck's Song", learned with my kids when we were reading Puck of Pook's Hill together, plus "Drake's Drum" remembered from school and Hugh Barrie's "When I Am Dead" because it's a climber's poem that I've said for years will be read at my funeral).

Those 4 poems and 2 full songs were all that about 8 Brits could contribute to the evening!

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Gedi
Date: 21 Jun 10 - 09:12 AM

What a fascinating thread this is. I never thought to look at my own motivations for playing in this way before!

For many years I played on my own (melodeon), mostly because I didn't know any other musicians, and my repertoire was very limited and grew stale.

Then I met a real nice bunch of people (at the Beech in Chorlton), started to play with them both in private and in public, and my repertoire has grown enormously as has my enjoyment of the music. I was invited to join a Morris side by JJ, who posted above, and this further increased my knowledge. I can honestly say that I have been given a new lease on life simply through going out and playing with and for other people.

I also occasionaly go down to Salford Quays on a sunny Sunday afternoon and find a quiet bench ovelooking the water and play tunes to myself and to passers by. I hope this doesn't come across as 'showing off' but I really do enjoy this aspect of playing out, and other people seem to enjoy it also. I find it helps to concentrate the mind if one is playing to an audience, no matter how small or transitory that audience may be. It also helps to build confidence and reduce nerves which is no bad thing.

Obviously this is only my take on the issue and as many posters have said it should be a matter of personal choice, but I do think there is much to be gained from 'playing out' as opposed to playing purely for yourself.

Ged

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Deckman
Date: 21 Jun 10 - 06:29 AM

WELL WELL WELL ... the previous three thread postings are making this subject VERY interesting. I can identify with everyone.bob(deckman)nelson

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Marje
Date: 21 Jun 10 - 06:22 AM

Re the Russian experience, above; yes, perhaps there is an element of good manners here. It's easy to be a follower, a passenger, a lazy musician who takes no risks and just lets others take the initiative. People who do stick their necks out and expose themselves (ooh-er! but you know what I mean) don't always find it easy, and may be doing it for the sake of the audience, or simply to get things going and encourage others to perform or join in.

So, without saying that people "should" behave in a certain way, I think some credit is due to those who do make an effort to entertain, and to encourage others to do so.

Marje

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: GUEST,JJ
Date: 21 Jun 10 - 01:54 AM

A few years back a particularly good melodeon player would roll up at local sessions. To everyone's delight and entertainment would play the most impossible tunes on his 2-row....no-one else could join in.

He wasn't showing off (he was much too shy to behave like that) but his superb playing of such complex tunes completely buggered up the sessions.

JJ

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jun 10 - 01:34 AM

I don't know whether or not this has any relevance to the premise of this thread... I was at a music party once where some Russians that had flown across from Vladivostok were also present. When it came my turn to play something I passed.

A few minutes later one of the young Russians told me severely that in Russia it is considered very rude if everyone doesn't do their part. If you don't want to sing, he said, then recite a poem or do a dance but do something.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Bernard
Date: 20 Jun 10 - 01:03 PM

It's a paradox... if you present your skills to the best of your abilities, you're an insufferable show-off. If you choose to keep yourself to yourself, you are slated for hiding your light under a bushel.

You can please some of the people some of the time...

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Deckman
Date: 20 Jun 10 - 08:44 AM

I'm finding this thread interesting. I gather from the style of speech that most of the comments are from folks in Europe. I was very surprised when I ran into this criticism a couple of years ago at a local gathering ... here in the Seattle, Washington (USA) area.

To explain: I am an experienced, AND VERY OLD, singer with a large repitoire. I'm on stage a lot doing concerts, teaching, and various other "presentations."

A lady from Canada decided to strongly chastise me because I had ceased to attend local "song circles." I had made the mistake of telling her that the use of song books during song swaps had ruined any interest I had in them. She then took me to serious task!

Briefly, she said that I had "no right" to deny others my talents!

She went on to say that if it wasn't for the more experienced singers, the less experienced singers would have no inspiration.

Interesting ... eh? bob(deckman)nelson ... still hiding out in Everett, Washington ... watching the fledgling birds learning how to fly.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 20 Jun 10 - 08:30 AM

I might not be such a good player, but as a Yorkshireman I'll play owt!

owt - (dialect) anything.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: G-Force
Date: 20 Jun 10 - 08:18 AM

Frankly I think we have to be grateful some people shun the limelight. There is nothing more off-putting in a session that the musician who thinks he's wonderful, knows more tunes than anyone else and can't wait to show off his absolutely deafening instrument so he can be louder than everyone else as well! But more seriously, of course privacy should be respected but one often encourages a good musician because their excellent playing gives us all so much pleasure.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: MickyMan
Date: 20 Jun 10 - 07:21 AM

Of course the trick is to do what you like, but all too often people stay out of the limelight because they are nervous about presenting themselves in public. When other performers sense this they'll mistakenly use all kinds of coercion to bring the genie out of the bottle ... even guilt. Most performers started out being nervous themselves and found that the conquering of their fears opened up a wonderful world of communication to them. They realized that they actually enjoyed playing for others, and it is difficult for these people to believe that everybody doesn't feel that way.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Young Buchan
Date: 20 Jun 10 - 07:05 AM

Mea maxima culpa!
Seamus it was!
I am very old....

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 20 Jun 10 - 06:40 AM

I like that story and always use it to illustrate the centre of some of these problems. Seamus Ennis used to tell it, and has recorded it, Packie may not lie, he borrows a much as the next man. That said and done, the story also appeared in one of Capt. Francis O'Neill's books, probably Irish Folk Music : a fascinating hobby can't remember exactly now which one it was.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Young Buchan
Date: 20 Jun 10 - 06:06 AM

The problem is not, apparently, new. Packie Manus Byrne used to tell the story of a legendary early Irish piper called Henry Bohannan. He was trying to learn the uillean pipes and not doing very well, until he was approached by one of the Little People who offered to teach him to play immediately. The only condition was that he should choose whether he wished to play to please others or to please himself, but he could not do both. He chose to please himself, and for a while was very happy. But he soon grew bored of only being able to play alone - because, though he felt he was playing brilliantly, everyone else thought he was so terrible that they would not let him join in at their sessions. He was truly miserable. Then one day he again met the Little Man who took pity on him and offered, once and for all time, to reverse the choice. He accepted. And from then on he was welcomed at all social gatherings. But he never again could enjoy the sound of his own playing.
And Packie wouldn't lie, would he?

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: buddhuu
Date: 19 Jun 10 - 08:13 PM

Apologies. "Guest" above is me.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 10 - 08:11 PM

Just checking that all understand "YMMV". ;-)

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Jun 10 - 06:17 PM

""I am interested in hearing what other people think, especially in the light of comments I have heard that more or less made it feel players have an obligation of sorts to go out and entertain those already interested in their particular type of music and do missionary work among the unenlightened masses.""

Those comments say more about the controlling nature of the people who made them, than about the the people to whom they were addressed, and why should anybody be co-erced into doing something with which they are not comfortable.

Ignore them, would be my advice. They do not own shares in your life.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jun 10 - 05:18 PM

There's a good precedent for this in one of the most significant English traditional singers, Walter Pardon:

Born 1914 in Knapton near North Walsham, Norfolk, Walter Pardon was fiercely proud of his "Bright Golden Store" of songs (the title of an LP of his singing issued in 1984) and very much enjoyed sharing them and passing them on to younger singers. Walter was a shy man who did not relish the pub environment, finding it disrespectful to the songs. He preferred a quiet gathering like those he used to have with his family which was rich in singers and musicians (Walter played melodeon) and sometimes seemed rather bemused by the folk clubs and concert halls he found himself in after his "discovery" by the famous folk singer Peter Bellamy in the early 1970s.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: stallion
Date: 19 Jun 10 - 04:09 PM

"playing away from home" in my experience hasn't been restricted to the ones that are good at it, although what it has to do with music.....................

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 19 Jun 10 - 09:30 AM

"I enjoy playing with myself, and with others when the chance arises."
:-)

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Smokey.
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 11:58 PM

Personally, I prefer an audience but I think people should do whatever they like with their abilities, notwithstanding certain debatable exceptions upon which it would be inappropriate to elaborate.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Brian May
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 01:24 PM

Classic cases here of the 'the tyranny of the shoulds and oughts'.

My wife is a psychotherapist and she talks of that phenomenon - not a good thing.

Just because it's right for a particular respondent, it doesn't mean it's right for the OP.

Whatever happened to 'live and let live'?

We end up singing about 'freedom of choice, peace and respect et al' . . . then slate someone for exercising it? I don't think so.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: buddhuu
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 12:31 PM

I think anyone who can make music has an obligation to him/herself to go and make music with other people, at least a few times. It is an experience not be missed. Music played alone is fine, but it's when music is shared that it comes alive, and the enjoyment of the player is multiplied beyond measure.

I play at home, but it's when I play with others that I feel the absolute joy of playing - even as crap as I am.

Limelight isn't the issue. I hate solos, and am well known for ducking them. Playing with other people, and for other people is a glorious thing.

YMMV.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: dwditty
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 11:42 AM

Not that I am particular religious, but some things from the Bible make sense to me (and by me, I mean me personally). One such passage is about hiding a candle under a bushel (This Little Light of Mine). Everyone has talents that can benefit the world, and the story encourages people to share them. I like that idea and play out often - from gigs in noisy bars to several volunteer gigs where the music sometimes seems to make a difference. But, all of this is, of course, simply my own feelings (or maybe it is just rationalization to justify my own ego-based motivations).

Is entertaining people with your talents an obligation? I don't think so. That being said, I do think that seeing a group of people enjoying themselves by being entertained is a good thing, in general. If one has the talent to offer that enjoyment, I think it is a nice thing to do, but only if one desires to do so.

Oh, and my highest musical moments have come when I am just sitting and playing music for my own enjoyment.

dw

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 11:06 AM

I enjoy playing with myself, and with others when the chance arises.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Marje
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 10:55 AM

To try to turn this question round in a way that avoids blame: are people who only ever play to themselves or a few close friends missing out on something?

In some cases, the answer has to be no. Some musicians are reserved and private people, to the extent that performing, or even knowing that others are watching/listening, takes the pleasure out of their music-making. There's no point in them forcing themselves to do something they're not comfortable with. I can't think of anything worse than player or singer who performs in front of others simply out of a sense of duty. Such a performance is unlikely to be enjoyed by anyone.

At the other extreme there are those (probably more numerous but it's hard to be sure - they may just be more conspicuous)for whom the whole point of music-making is to share it with others and entertain them. They're the natural show-offs, if you like, and our world would be a lot less colouful without them.

In between are (probably) the majority of us, who do get a buzz from playing or singing "out" but also enjoy playing in complete privacy, just immersing themselves in their music. These are the individuals who may sometimes wonder whether it's worth making the effort to entertain others, and risk arousing criticism or disapproval.

One thing that changed my attitude to all this was when I lost my singing voice for some months after a bad illness. It really depressed me not to be able to sing, and I promised myself that if I ever got my voice back I'd use it, not just for myself but to sing for others whenever I could. While I was recovering, I bought a melodeon and learned to play that, which may not have added significantly to the total sum of human happiness, but I've got great pleasure from it.

I still occasionally find myself making excuses and finding reasons not to perform or play/sing in public, which is quite silly because once I get started I really enjoy it. When I do get compliments or positive comments from others, it makes me feel really good, and I'm glad I pushed myself and made the effort.

So I don't think there's any general moral obligation to perform, but I'd say it's well worth pushing oneself a bit beyond the "comfort zone" sometimes. It's very rewarding when others respond well and enjoy the music.

Marje

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 10:46 AM

One of my most-rewarding life-mottoes has long been:

THERE ARE NO SHOULDS IN THE UNIVERSE.


I steer by "coulds" when in doubt.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: GUEST,strad
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 10:32 AM

I'm sure my wife would complain if "I played away from home"

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 10:27 AM

I didn`t do enough of ANYthing in the 1960s to understand this thread--no offence.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 10:24 AM

should good players play away from home?

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 10:20 AM

I thin I have been clear about how I feel about it myself so I don't think I have anything to explain.

Here you'll find a link to a discussion on concertina.net on the subject 'Am I a musician' note the comment :

It's selfish, for a start. Most people that I know disapprove of selfishness.


on page three of the discussion and :

Music is a service, and you're a musician when you provide this service.

on the previous page, from where this angle took off.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: MikeL2
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 10:02 AM

hi

People should be left to make their own decisions as what they want to do.

However as a person who played for many years in several styles and guises, I know what it is to requested/pestered to play sometimes by well-meaning people.

These days I play solely at home. This is because of age/injury/illness I don't feel that I am good enough any more to go out in public. My choice and most people do respect it.

Just do what gives you the most pleasure.

Cheers

MIkel2

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Brian May
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 09:50 AM

Quote "GUEST Peter Laban - What is the point of your question ? Are you suggesting people should NOT do what they want to do or what ?"

Wow, how did we get there?

Should you be coerced into playing? Perhaps sometimes, perhaps to the people that matter in your life.

It's nobody else's business but yours. I play mostly and most freely to/for myself. I don't regard that as:

a) Selfish
b) Quirky
c) Reclusive
d) Falsely modest
e) Any other reason

I just do. I've taken to popping down the local folk club from time to time and now enjoy playing to this little group - something I've not done for 25 years or so.

Play publicly if you want to and don't if you're unhappy about it. Your choice, and you really don't have to justify the execution of said choice.

Subject: RE: Should good players play out?
From: Bernard
Date: 18 Jun 10 - 08:32 AM

If someone won't play or sing in public, I think they should be reported to the Folk Police, who should visit the bounders and give them a jolly good thrashing!!

Seriously, though, I have found myself on the receiving end of (not always polite) emotional blackmail if I don't feel that I wish to give a performance. If I'm being paid it's a different matter - it's a job. If I wish to rest, surely that's my prerogative?