Guitar: Removing glossy finish

Subject: RE: BS: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 04:39 PM

I still don't know what a cabinet scraper is (unless it has another name) so I probably ought to leave that tool alone for now!

Subject: RE: BS: Removing glossy finish
From: Gurney
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 05:21 PM

Murray, obviously you could, and certainly I could, use a scraper on the belly of a guitar, but Melissa is not likely to have the wrist strength and control to use one. I'm judging purely on her name and posts, but she hardly sounds like a 'horny-handed son of toil.' However, around the bridge it would not be easy to remove hard varnish from soft wood without gouging the wood, when using just a scraper.
Remember, this is cheap box with an unknown but probably cheap varnish on it, thickly applied, as she said. I want her to make a proper job of it, and the wood will only be about 4mm thick, possibly plywood with a dark glue, and one gouge would show forever, and show worse if she tried to sand it out. So my comments were aimed to try to give Melissa successful results on an initial venture.
As a parallel to our discussion, some time ago we had a thread on the merits of kitchen knives. I was alone among the guys, I think, in championing the 'Wiltshire' type of self-sharpening knife. My logic was that, although I like to use the perfect tool, my wife just wants cut food.
Melissa, I haven't seen real turpentine for many years. It is made from trees, not petroleum. When I was young, the paint shops stocked both turpentine and turpentine substitute, but not here and not now, as far as I can see. Possibly reformulation of paint to take advantage of the cheaper alternative? My father diluted with real, washed brushes in substitute.
JohniK, my information about Tung oil came from a woodworking magazine. I assumed they knew whereof they wrote. It seems to dry more quickly than raw Linseed oil, but perhaps not faster than boiled Linseed oil. Just my perception, I haven't conducted tests. Chris.

Subject: RE: BS: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 05:37 PM

You're right, Gurney. At the moment, I'm not much of a horny-handed toiler..but I have pretty strong wrists--I throw tomahawks.

I just picked up the guitar and it's a nice day (less than 600% humidity) so it won't be overly miserable working outside. There's an extra bonus in not needing to worry about dripping sweat stains all over the project while I'm at it.

My niece was horrified when I grabbed the pick guard and pulled it off!

Subject: RE: BS: Removing glossy finish
From: Gurney
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 05:45 PM

Melissa, a cabinet scraper is a piece of steel with sharp edges. Not knife edges, just 90degree edges, and you use it in both hands, bending it very slightly, and pushing it away from you, tilting it so that the edge on the other side from you scrapes off the surface. Along the grain.
There are other types which have handles, which oddly makes them even harder to control for fine work.
As for using oil finish on a guitar, as I said in my 02:37 post, I haven't, and I wouldn't. Not on the belly.
Love it for other things. You just rub it on until it it looks right.

Subject: RE: BS: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 05:52 PM

Tough finish!
Nail polish remover didn't even make a mark..

A cabinet scraper is kind of like a sharp putty knife blade..shaped differently and no handle? Sounds like a useful tool!

Subject: RE: BS: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 06:05 PM

The sand/steel wool suggestions win this round.
My stripper didn't make a dent.

Subject: RE: BS: Removing glossy finish
From: Gurney
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 09:04 PM

No Melissa. A cabinet scraper, in the simplist form, is just a rectangular piece of thinnish flat steel. Google it, and you'll see. You use it as I said above, sliding your little fingers along the surface of the wood and holding the scraper between thumbs and first two fingers.   There are other ways to use them, of course.
You use all four edges until they are blunt, put it in the vise, resharpen it.... edges don't like being used 'sideways.'
You also have to have a 'fixed' job, because you don't have a hand to hold the guitar with.

Anything with a handle, I wouldn't use without something to soften the varnish. Heat or stripper. Too easy to gouge the wood. And with heat, too easy to char the wood.
You CAN use a Stanley-knife blade as an impromptu scraper for small areas, but best to blunt or tape over the two acute cutting points.

If you decide to sand off the varnish, the best (and cheapest) power sander is a quarter-sheet finishing sander, which leaves the finest finish.
All the others are harsher/more aggressive.
Enjoy yourself. Chris.

Subject: RE: BS: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 24 Jun 10 - 09:40 PM

I will just hand sand it..partly because of cost/noise and mostly because it's not a very big project and I'll want to be able to have pretty good control of how hard I sand.

Those scrapers sound handy (except the part about sharpening)..like a woodworking version of the blade-like things for scraping dough from a countertop. I'm surprised I've survived so long without one! (thanks, I probably wouldn't have known about them without being told)

Subject: RE: BS: Removing glossy finish
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 25 Jun 10 - 09:03 AM

Melissa, once you use a cabinet scraper, you will be pleasantly surprised.

Just don't ever post a thread on a woodworking forum asking what is the best way to sharpen a cabinet scraper, it's the equivalent of posting a "What is folk ? " thread, on here.*G*

Subject: RE: BS: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 02:37 AM

This project resembles Work!

Subject: RE: BS: Removing glossy finish
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 03:33 PM

Re Old English and Tung Oil

The Old English label indicates that it contains "petroleum distallates" but it may also contain vegetable oils. The petroleum oil label is required due to toxicity, but they don't have to name the other ingredients. Its intended use is as a "furniture polish" to put a shine on things that already have a "finish." The oil is intended to penetrate the wood, to "lubricate" it and prevent cracking/checking of the surface.

By design, it's not supposed to dry or harden, so it's not really suitable for the "finish" one wants for wooden articles.

That said, the table I mentioned above was an "emergency build," made out of construction grade lumber, and I used the "dark" Old English to color the surface before applying the tung oil to harden it.

I found myself with the task of selling a house with no furniture in it, and the real estate agent complained that there wasn't any place to sit down with a buyer to write a contract. I had two 2 x 10 planks, 10 ft long, in the basement, so one Saturday morning I cut off the 10" end that had a split in it and made a table out of all of the rest. It would have been a "one-nighter" but I ran out of lag bolts and had to postpone finishing the assembly when I got some more bolts on Sunday.

Old English dark gave it a reasonably even color, after which I applied the tung oil.

Most products labelled as "tung oil" actually are mixtures with other "finishing products," with a small percentage of tung oil added as a hardener. The actual tung oil content hovers in the vicinity of 10%, or maybe a little more, for the kinds commonly found; but the application and drying characteristics are more dependent on the "other stuff" in the mix. Most of these actually are labelled as "tung oil xxx" but the xxx may be in very tiny print where it's not obvious.

The tung oil I used was "98% pure" tung oil, as I recall. It was much too expensive to use on this project; but it was what I had on hand.

The "pure" tung oil does dry "to the touch" in an hour or two, and dust doesn't stick to it noticeably then, or fairly soon after. The table was "in use" within about 10 hours after application.

The tung oil continues to harden for quite a long time, and remains somewhat easy to "scratch and dent" for a week or two. It remains permeable to water and other liquids for a while longer, and the white ring water marks seen on furniture where an iced glass has been left for a while are possible for quite a while. It probably would be susceptible to "finger marks" if handled a lot during the cure time, as would be the case on an instrument neck at least.

As mentioned above, one of the kids left a glass of juice on my table about three weeks after the original finish was applied, and it left a really ugly ring. Breaking the surface of the finish with a belt sander, and reapplying the Old English + tung oil, completely removed/concealed the mark.

Once the tung oil hardens fully though, perhaps after 6 weeks or so, it's almost impossible to "mark" it without extreme measures. We never use "coasters" under the glasses, and it's had about everything one might imagine spilled on it, with no visible change in the finish.

I did, incidentally, get at least three serious offers (up to $300) to buy the table before the house sold. One person (who didn't want the house) came back after the sold sign went up to ask if I was ready to sell the table. We're still using it, 30 years later. It still looks like new - i.e. home-made crude and ugly, but very sturdy. (Recollection is that it weighs about 84 pounds, but it's been a while since I checked.)

John

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 05:23 PM

I got an oil stain.
I'll follow the directions on that and it may be a while before I put on a finish. Do I need to oil the stain to seal it?

John:
Your table reminds me of one I saw in a historical house tour. The guide made a point of telling us that the table weighed a half-ton. It was neat enough..but that's an awfully heavy table! Kind of makes your look like a lightweight.


Ha..I try to avoid WIF threads like diseased toenails. Thanks for the scraper-sharpening topic warning, Murray. I'm not likely to visit a woodworking conversation site--but I'm sure glad to know what to avoid just in case!

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 05:24 PM

Hey, how did this get upstairs?!

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Gurney
Date: 27 Jun 10 - 12:05 AM

Oil stains and oil finishes are different. Oil stain colours the wood and then dries, and you use very little of it, but oil finishes sink into the wood to preserve it, and you use quite a lot. Both enhance the appearance of wood. There are spirit-based stains, too. You apply stain by rubbing it in with a pad of rag, not painting it on.
To confuse the issue, there are coloured oil finishes which both colour and preserve, as I implied in my 02:37 post, but as I've posted twice before, think carefully about using an oil finish on soundwood. The tone comes from the structure of the wood, and the dried oil will change that.

Professional Luthiers use varnish on the guitar belly which pretty much floats on the wood, and doesn't sink in much, so yes it needs to be sealed eventually, but a Luthier friend of mine actually plays instruments for a while before he finishes them. He is careful to keep them clean, though. Chris.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 27 Jun 10 - 12:32 AM

I was mostly wondering whether I needed to hurry and put some kind of finish on when I get the thing stained..or whether I could let it sit a while.

This guitar isn't made of good wood. I'm not sure the finish will make much difference in the sound. I'll just want to put something on it to make it not get scratched too easily and not feel icky against my skin.
I'm afraid if I tried varnish or something like that, it would end up full of dust and cathair because I don't have a place set up for that type of job.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: bubblyrat
Date: 27 Jun 10 - 05:57 AM

Take a look,historically,at somebody famous who has gone down the same road, albeit with an expensive ( Martin) guitar. Actor Andy Griffith got hold of a guitar (gratis !) used as a prop in a film in which he played a character called,I believe,Lonesome Rhodes ; anyway,he didn't like the gloss top,and removed it by,I think, patient hand-sanding ( Martin themselves have the full story ).I would NEVER use strippers or solvents on ANY guitar !

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Jun 10 - 07:17 AM

Google search on "cabinet scraper". None of these (on page 1, anyway) seems to look like what has been described.

I think this does belong above the line. It is about refinishing a musical instrument, and this certainly is a question that might have searchers landing on Mudcat.

SRS

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: GUEST,Old Techie
Date: 27 Jun 10 - 08:01 AM

I seem to remember John Lennon stripping back one of his semi acoustic Epiphones to bare wood in the late 60's/early 70's and claiming it sounded better. Possibly the same instrument he went on to paint white. He used a cabinet scraper and glasspaper. Wonder how much that would be worth now?

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 27 Jun 10 - 08:41 AM

Stilly: The Bahco, 2 Cherries and similar are all exactly what was described. The Stanley and other models with the blade slotted into handles look more like what I'd call a "spoke shave" but are probably cabinet scrapers sitting in holders similar to spoke shave design as Idon't see the knurled nut adjusters you'd get on a aspoke shave.

I'd agree with the comments about not using stripper on instruments. I'd go for sanding, myself. BUT I wouldn't use an orbital sander or any type which vibrates...they *always* leave tiny circular marks which are hell to get out. At best I'd take off the first layer of a thick finish with a mechanised sander, and the rest by hand, working WITH the grain of the wood, wrapping the paper around a block over the bulk of the area, and using my fingers carefully in less accessible areas.

For a finish I 'd go for oil or wax rather than any kind of new varnish or coating. Never made a guitar but I've made plenty furniture in my time and always preferred an oil or wax finish.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 27 Jun 10 - 08:51 AM

Gurney, I would be surprised to learn of any guitar maker who uses varnish on the soundboard of an acoustic guitar.

Lacquer, mostly nitrocellulose but occasionally acrylic, is the universal choice for finishing the body. French polish, too, among some classical builders.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Jun 10 - 02:43 PM

Stilly -

At the page you linked, This is the cabinet scraper people have described here.

The other things include planes, gouges, draw-knives, spoke shaves, and a variety of other tools.

Scrapers and gouges are commonly used tools, especially by instrument builders. The disadvantage of this particular scraper is that it only works really well on flat surfaces. The scraper is held perpendicular to the surface while being drawn (usually pulled) across the surface. Since the standard scraper is flat and stiff, it only "draws a line" on a curved (convex) surface.

An old double-edge razor blade (bare between the fingers) can be used in the same way, but is flexible enough that you can curve the tool so that with a very slight inclination to a surface with a large enough convex radius you can "fit the curve" and get sufficient scraping effect to remove a surface finish or small amounts of wood quite smoothly, and is a tool I've used for "cleaning up" nooks and crannies. Unfortunately I'm not sure anyone still makes them, and they're almost impossible to find to buy.

A strip of steel "strapping" of the sort once used for bundling large packages could be sharpened just by grinding a sharp square edge to make a similar "conformal scraper," but nobody uses the steel stuff anymore and the plastic straps now available certainly aren't useful. An old clock spring from a large clock would be a treasure for anyone who needs to make this kind of scraper; but who's got a "wind-up" clock to spare?

Any "knife" blade can be used for scraping in this way, as long as it's held very close to perpendicular to the surface, or inclined very slightly in the direction it's moved, so that there's no possibility of "digging in" and removing the wood, but most knife blades are "curved backwards" (convex) and aren't really suitable for flat or convex surface scraping.

John

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 27 Jun 10 - 05:19 PM

By the time I'm done with all this sanding, I should be able to arm wrestle anybody. It's giving me quite a workout.

I think I could safely scrape or use a powergadget to get through the shiny layer (and most of the stain layer too) That stuff is tough!

I started on the back (flat, no nooks) and when I started to wonder if there was actually any wood under the stain/gloss, I switched to the head. I figured I could use the logo to see where gloss stopped and stain began.
So, the front of the head is clean.
About a third of the back is clean.


We have a guy who traded and ended up with a semi-old Martin. He immediately stripped the front and was impressed with the sound difference. He loves that story and remembers to frequently tell me to never refinish my real guitar. I'd be allowed to strip it..but no new shiny finish.
I'd like to spend some time with a before/after good guitar.

I have some old double-edge blades.
Maybe I'll give one a whirl to see if I can get through the finish easier. Or, maybe I'll chicken out on that idea. Sanding is getting the job done.

John:
Are you talking about the metal strapping that's about 3/4" wide..used for things like bundling wood at a sawmill?

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Jun 10 - 07:34 PM

Even after your descriptions, I never guessed that those images were what you were describing. I guess I'll have to see one in action. I've had tasks to do every so often and when trying to figure out how to do it had one of the "ah ha!" moments and went and got the tool (old stuff from my Dad's house) that I previously had no clue as to what it was for. He didn't have one of those, though.

SRS

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 27 Jun 10 - 08:21 PM

I have mentioned this at least once before on similar threads, but it has some relevance here, re the improvement in sound after a finish has been removed.

I owned a Lakewood dreadnought some years ago, and wasn't happy with the contour of the neck, so decided to reshape it.

It didn't need drastic reshaping, I knew I could accomplish it with the aid of a cabinet scraper, so that is what I did.

While I knew it would give increased playability, what I wasn't prepared for was the startling improvement in sound, or maybe I should say "volume", just by removing the lacquer from the back of the neck.

It just goes to show, every single part of an instrument plays its part in the generation of sound.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 27 Jun 10 - 09:01 PM

I'm surprised that shaving the neck would make a noticeable difference in sound, Murray.
Why do instruments have such thick finish if it keeps the sound from getting loose?


Are scrapers bought individually, or in batches?
How was a scraper packaged about 20 years ago?

..were they in individual plastic sleeves and unsharpened?

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Gurney
Date: 27 Jun 10 - 09:05 PM

On Stilly's Google search link page 07:17 am, four rows down, there is a picture of the scrapers that John linked to, beside a picture of one being used as I described, even to the finger position.

Murray, you are of course right, -again,- and whatever finish ends up on the guitar belly needs to be 'hard' and not rubbery like polyurethane. I was using 'varnish' as a generic term. My main concern, if it can be called concern, is that Melissa didn't fill the wood of the belly with oil.

Melissa, you could still buy a finishing sander and save yourself elbow grease. Rob's concern about the scratches they leave is legitimate, but you don't have to take off ALL the finish right down to the wood with it, just until the wood starts to show, and then finish by hand as he says, in the direction of the grain. The cheapest 1/3 or 1/4sheet sanders cost about US$20. You just hold them firmly and let them work for you. You don't even have to press down. In fact, you shouldn't press down.   Chris.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 27 Jun 10 - 09:13 PM

I'm seriously considering a small, cheap sander.
Now that I have seen how the finish is layered and can tell when the wood is about to peek through, I doubt I'd have much trouble keeping from marking the wood or going too deep.


The reason I was asking about scraper packaging is that this conversation has me thinking about a stack of flexible metal things I got in a box lot several years ago.
I didn't have any idea what they were for and used the ones I didn't give away for scraping all kinds of stuff. They were my multi-purpose kitchen tool and now I wonder what their intended use was.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 27 Jun 10 - 09:58 PM

Sandpaper comes in pre-cut packages for sanders.
Is there any reason to buy it like that instead of getting standard sheets?

Aren't sheets cheaper..and the same stuff?

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 01:04 AM

What about an alcohol stain?
I used tobacco/alcohol on a pistol several years ago and it turned out nice without fluffing the grain or resisting the oil. It has aged nicely.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Gurney
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 01:20 AM

I use both for general woodworking, depending how much sanding I have to do. You could buy 4 sheets of 80grit and two sheets of 100grit, which is probably cheaper than buying packs. It lasts for years if it is stored dry.
Start with the coarser paper, and if that is too slow, go back to the shop for 60grit. Aggressive stuff!   You are in a suck-it-and-see situation.   You can use it on a block as well, naturally.

Scrapers. As has been said, anything that has a suitable edge CAN be used, but care is needed with improvised ones. I've even seen broken glass used, with the handling edges taped up. Even that loony wore glasses, though, and was using it on softwood, not hard varnish.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 02:54 AM

Melissa -

The strapping I mentioned comes (or came) in a variety of weights. The stuff you mentioned is possibly still available if you can find some place that's recently unbundled something, and either persuade someone to let you grab it or do a bit of "dumpster diving."

The kind I have used in the past was more like 3/8 inch wide, but plastic has replaced that for most uses, so I haven't' seen the lighter stuff recently.

The original strap has rounded edges to avoid cutting people when the straps are handled. To make a scraper you need to cut a flat edge, so that there's a sharp 90 degree "edge" on each side of each side. That will be difficult without a good grinder or belt sander.

The scrapers of the kind linked up above are bought individually. To use them successfully you do need to (eventually) learn to sharpen one to freshen up the edges. Many people use a grinder, but my preference has been a belt sander.

Most "old timers" around her kept (keep) scrap window glass specifically for use as scrapers. A "fresh snapped" edge is about as good as you can get for taking a few splinters off the hoe handle. Those I knew who used this tool would tell you that you'd probably cut yourself worse trying to tape the edges you weren't using than just "gettin' on with it;" but for those not experienced in the art (young thumbs heal quickly - older ones don't - which is how you learned "safely" in the old days) a decent pair of leather work gloves would be advisable. Horsehide is probably best, and is the preference in sheetmetal shops where sharp edges are everywhere. Some "gardening gloves" would probably be suitable, and should be easy to find if you can't find a pair of "White Mules."

Do consider that by the time you try all the "cheap ways" you likely will end up dribbling out more $$$$ than you'd spend for a suitable little "palm sander" or similar. Ones available now are much improved over what I've got at hand, since mine are mostly 40 years old; but even Dremel (or Black & Decker, etc) has some really cute ones now that actually work, and you should be able to find something (even if you have to assume a disguise and sneak into Wally World) for $20 to $30 quite easily, or maybe for less if you catch a sale.

A light weight sander isn't absolutely assured of getting the job done a lot quicker; but you won't be developing "rassler biceps" doing it. A rule of woodworking is that you don't cut stuff off - you "persuade" the parts you don't want to get up and leave.

John

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 03:08 AM

I won't try any of the scraper stuff..just curious. I've got bands of metal hanging on my fence from buying bundles of firewood from a sawmill and was surprised to think of them being useful for anything.

I'll shop for a sander in the $20-30 range.
Is there a brand I should avoid, or am I pretty safe judging by weight and how it fits my hand?


The back is nearly cleaned and I'm thinking about the bridge now.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 09:53 AM

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa - PM
Date: 27 Jun 10 - 09:01 PM

I'm surprised that shaving the neck would make a noticeable difference in sound, Murray.
Why do instruments have such thick finish if it keeps the sound from getting loose?

I was equally surprised, believe me.

Getting a nice thin durable finish on an instrument is a time consuming job, which is why several custom makers farm out the work to specialists.

It doesn't take much skill (or time) to spray a thick coat of lacquer , run it through a UV curing chamber, and buff it up.

Time is money, and large manufacturers are solely concerned with the bottom line.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Gurney
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 04:11 PM

Palm-sanders often use specifically-manufactured velcro-backed sanding discs, which are expensive compared with sheet sandpaper. Also, if you aren't paying attention, the paper flies off and you ruin the velcro hooks on the sander itself, and that pad is very very expensive.

Palm-sanders look easy to use, but like small paintbrushes versus large, you rarely see specialists using one.

The 'waist' of the guitar is another tricky bit. If you insist on stripping it, the 'toe' and 'heel' of a finishing sander can be used, but the risk of going too far is high, particularly as there is a temptation to use the side of the sander. Don't do that!

Are you enjoying yourself yet?

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 04:54 PM

Velcro?! What kind of gadgety crap is that!?
I'll be shopping for a sander this evening and am glad to know to watch out for tricky sandpaper holders.

Ha, I'd be having a lot more fun if I wasn't starting to get stove up from all this dang sanding.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 12:22 AM

I haven't figured out how to get the bridge off..and that's keeping the front unsanded. The rest is done except for a little bit of edge where the neck and body meet.

I could hear a difference in the way the sander noise carried through the box as I got more finish cleaned off. I'm starting to get excited about putting the thing back together and playing with it!


The binding is binding (I was afraid it might be a paintjob) and the dots are poked in the binding..they're not surface paint.
The bridge is still a plastic monstrosity, but otherwise, I've been pleased with what I've found under all that shine.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 12:48 AM

Any advice on getting the bridge unstuck from the top without gouging the wood? I got the inside nuts off but the bridge seems to be glued on very well.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Gurney
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 02:36 AM

You are a bold lady! Taking a bridge off is not to be taken lightly, it is on in a specific position, and of a specific height or size. This is luthiers work, and I'll bet everyone suggests you leave it alone.
Including me. Take the finish off around it, and leave it alone!

If you absolutely insist, madwoman, I suggest that you make/obtain another bridge first that is as close as dammit to the dimensions of the present one. You are changing it, aren't you? They are not normally removable, only replaceable after destroying the original. Usually into splinters and shavings. They are made from heavy, dense wood normally, and are tricky to remove because they are so much harder than the belly they are glued to. Normally.

I was going to give suggestions here, but I've had second thoughts. No, leave it alone unless there's something wrong with it, such as action too high and not lowerable, or it doesn't sound the octave right. Even then, the most you should do is play with the bone.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Gurney
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 02:46 AM

Sorry about the patronising tone above, but you are moving out of my comfort zone, advising you with what someone of your expertise is attempting with a working instrument, and you are in danger of buggering it beyond economic repair. If you must change the bridge, take it to a luthier. Who may refuse to touch it.
Sorry, again. Chris.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 02:52 AM

I'm surprised it's stuck on so well..the pick guard just pulled right off and I guess I expected the bridge to be stuck on with crappy glue too.
I figured if I could get the nuts finagled off, the bridge would be ready to pop off. It sure didn't work that way! I can't even find a loose spot to poke something in to pry.

I am getting kind of fond of this guitar and it just seems a shame for it to have a ratty plastic bridge when the rest of it is beginning to look so promising.


Don't you think it would sound nicer to refer to me as Eccentric?

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 02:56 AM

Going beyond economic repair isn't too scary in this case.
The guitar cost me $27.50 and if I break it, I will learn..and if I break it beyond repair, I will know what not to try if I decide to do another one somewhere down the line.

It really isn't much of a guitar.
It's an Adventure.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 03:07 AM

I think Gurney's "madwoman " was intended as jocularly affectionate, tongue in cheek...

The most effective way to remove the bridge is with a router, Melissa, d'you fancy upgrading your skills by a quantum leap ?

Alternatively, what you could do, since it's made of plastic, you could get a hair dryer and heat it up, chances are that will melt the glue sufficiently to remove the bridge. You need to insulate the wood of the soundboard, though, not to protect the finish, which is no longer there, but to prevent the heat melting the glue holding the bridge plate and the bracing underneath.

We'll talk you through installation of the new bridge later ...

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Gurney
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 03:08 AM

You are eccentric. Sorry.
Where I come from, that means you are rich, as only rich people are 'eccentric.'

Poor people are 'barmy.'

There is a lot of stress on a bridge, six strings tightened as they are. Over the years, it pulls the whole belly, braces and all, into a shallow 'S' shape, bends the neck into a curve... the pickguard only stops you scratching the varnish.

I had one guitar where the bridge actually twisted in two places, the centre of it moving up about 2degrees but the thinner sides staying down. Pulled the belly into a very funny shape. Only acoustic mediums on it, too.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 03:30 AM

If I sand around it and wait to see if I get a different bridge later, will I be able to get this one loose without making my new finish ugly?
Will a replacement be the same size and cover the unstripped area under this plastic beast? I am kind of anxious to get this thing restrung and ready to play after listening to the sander resonate through it.


'Barmy' always sounds kind of diseased or something to me (reminds me of Warbles for some reason)
Here, hermits and other social oddities can be Eccentric..besides, maybe I have jars of gold buried around the yard..

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Gurney
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 03:35 AM

Since Murray has brought the methods up;
I'd insulate with 3 or 4 layers of masking tape interlaid with paper and with damp rag on top of them, a thin knife for a lever (gently!) and use a (cheap) hot-air gun for heat, or

dig out the screws that those nuts were on, and grind/melt the bridge off with a (cheap) angle-grinder, metal-cutting disc. You'd need a solid piece of steel to keep grinding/cleaning the disc. And safety glasses. And the guitar clamped down. It might generate enough heat to melt the glue anyway. The angle-grinder wouldn't care if you left the screws in, it would just get them red-hot and burn them away.
Routers are far better tools for wood. Far dearer, and far harder to control in this situation. And you definitely have to get rid of any metal before you use them.
I still say you need another bridge before you start.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Gurney
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 03:42 AM

I've seen bridges for sale in specialist instrument-parts-supply magazines, but generally, luthiers make their own, so you could have one made a tiny fraction bigger. It is the position of the bridge-bone that is critical, and the way the stress is transferred through to the braces inside.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 03:56 AM

Ok..I'll leave this one on and clean around it for now. That will be a lot faster and easier.
If I love this guitar when it's done, I can start shopping for a wood bridge and figure out how to switch it then.

My stain is taking color well and I really am about ready to get restrung. Hearing the sander noise change from an obnoxious buzz to an obnoxious roar made quite an impression on me..

Thanks

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Gurney
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 04:00 AM

Don't forget the nuts!   Chris.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 04:07 AM

Those nuts can wait until tomorrow..they were hard to get out!

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: bubblyrat
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 05:09 AM

To "scrape" around the edge of the bridge,you could use what we call in England a "scribe" ; it's a thin metal rod, with a serrated or knurled surface to aid grip, about 6 to 8 inches long,with a right-angle at one end, both of which have sharp points.You could get in really tight with the angled end,against the bridge edges, and get the varnish out by pulling the scribe towards you . I used to use one for getting the rubber "O" -rings out of the hydraulic cylinders of the General Electric A I 18 radar system !!