Guitar: Removing glossy finish

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: frogprince
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 10:34 AM

Or ask your local dental hygenist for a tooth-cleaning pick; what bubbly described sounds like it would be much the same for your purpose.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 08:04 PM

A small-area scraping tool would be handy! I have the spot around the bridge and where the neck/body meet left to tend.

Other than that (and figuring out what to do about the damn scuff I made by the soundhole) the beast is clean. I may use a layer or two of store-bought stain on the front and tobacco for the rest, but I think I'm done thinking about it for a while. The rest of today is my Evening of Rest.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Gurney
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 01:30 AM

Melissa, if you try YouTube you'll find Totally Gourdgeous, the stringed instruments they play are made by the lass there. Made from gourds, hence the name.
Wimmin can do anything. Worth a look. Chris.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 01:45 AM

An emery board is the perfect tool for cleaning around the bridge.


Thanks, Chris.
I'll check out those gourds tomorrow and I bet I'll like them!

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 08:03 PM

I've finished sanding and moved on to staining.
All is well and I'm pleased so far..

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: GUEST,The Pom
Date: 01 Jul 10 - 04:30 AM

STOP!
The industrial chemist is right Acetone is no good.
Make a weak solution of caustic soda and paint it on. Use a cabinet scraper to take it off. Repeat until clean. Wash off excess with clean water. Sand top thinner for better sound. Finish with thin coat of flat varnish.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Gurney
Date: 01 Jul 10 - 03:57 PM

Too late, Pom. She's removed it all by mechanical methods.

Melissa, have you restrung it yet? I'm agog!

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 01 Jul 10 - 05:13 PM

I wish it was restrung so I could hear what it sounds like!

I started staining yesterday, planning to put on a few more layers today. Tomorrow may be more staining OR might be a gentle oiling.
My goal is to have it ready to play by the middle of next week..I have a nursing home wednesday and would like to get restrung in time to use it there so I can hear it mingled with other instruments.

The stain is kind of a golden brown.
Last time I used this type of stain, it didn't take overlong for the yellow to brown up and get much older looking.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 01 Jul 10 - 09:56 PM

Tuners:
I've been smearing stain on the nut and folded my cotton over the saddle so it can brown up a little.
What about the tuners?

Will alcohol do anything to hurt the mechanism if I soak them overnight? They're so white, they'll be eye-catching if I don't do something to dirty them.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Gurney
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 12:51 AM

Is this a classical/Spanish guitar? I'm supposing that you are talking about the capstan shafts in slots in the head. There's no mechanism in them.
You could mean that you have machine-heads, on a steel-strung guitar, and they may have plastic caps on the back of the head, or white grommets on the front of the head.

I don't know if there are plastics that react to alcohol, I've never heard of one. Can't advise you there. Some plastics react badly to Turps and other solvents.

All tuning mechinisms I've seen are easily removable, and fairly cheap to buy anyway. Cheap ones are cheap to buy, I should say.

I am still saying you shouldn't oil the belly. Much as I like an oil finish. On furniture.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 01:06 AM

Machine heads..gear and peg-stem thing that sticks through a hole. The knobs are white plastic and I want them to look less white (more brownish yellow) and it seems like an easy way to do that would be for me to just drop the mechanism in my stain solution overnight then rinse them. I think the alcohol would probably knock the shine off of the knobs and they'd probably absorb a little bit of color.

I'm going to need to use something to seal the guitar when I'm done staining because I won't want my arm (and other parts that touch a guitar when I play it) to turn yellow.
Oil is easy and it ages well.
If I hate what it does to the sound, I can clean it off and start again. I think it will be ok.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 01:35 AM

Plan B:
I was looking for something else and found an article about instantly aging tuners. He suggests shoe polish and that would save me having to wash gunk from my gears..

50 years in 30 minutes

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 02:23 AM

Melissa, you are amazing.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 03:23 PM

The 'trade secret archive' at StewMac has some neat, clear tips.
I'm not afraid of french polish or shellac now and may be a little braver next time around.
I am learning a lot and enjoying every bit of it.

I went looking for brown shoe polish last night and found that my grandparents left me an unopened bottle of tung oil.


Thanks, Ebbie.
People are pretty amazing creatures around the edges.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Gurney
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 05:25 PM

Last time, Melissa.
Wood has a structure which is mostly tubes connected together with threads. The tonal qualities that we love is because of the way this structure vibrates. Wood is porous, which is how come it gets waterlogged. There is a theory that Stradivarius got HIS tonal quality by removing some of the internal surplus material of his tonewood, using salt water.
Oil finishes do not sit on the surface of wood, they penetrate deeply, and in wood as thin as a guitar belly, applying enough oil might even mean it will go all the way through! I think it very unlikely that you will ever get it out.
What you are proposing to do is, having removed a deadening factor, varnish, is soak the tonewood in a possibly even more deadening factor, filling the structure with dried oil.

Chris.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 05:46 PM

Gurney,
If I don't oil it and don't have a place (or supplies) to let another type of coating dry without getting full of cathair and dust, how will I seal it?

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 05:54 PM

There's probably some floor wax here..I could use wax instead of oil?

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Gurney
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 08:46 PM

It would be best to french-polish it, in your position. It's a multi-layer process, so thin is better. That is a wax process. As Murry said way up there, old-time makers used to do that. Build up your muscles even more, though.
Lacquer is fast-drying, though. I have wondered if the lacquer 'clear-coat' used on cars, or the lacquer used on polished brass, would do the job. Never heard of them being used, though. Both available in spray-cans.
I'll leave recommendation of that to a paint chemist. I would try it, But I'm fairly mad myself. It wouldn't be the commitment that oil-finish would be, as you could remove it again.

Dust and sags and runs aren't a tragedy, though. You can take them out (carefully) using a Stanley-knife blade as a scraper, as was described above for cabinet scrapers, finishing with 1200grit 'flatting paper' and a cutting polish. Both automobile panelbeating products.
Good Luck.   Chris.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Gurney
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 09:02 PM

About your machine-head knobs; I saw a guitar where the owner had etched his knobs with an ornate lettering of his name, and then rubbed paint into them. He used a tool which vibrates a point.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 02 Jul 10 - 11:44 PM

Tuner knobs have been made from a variety of materials, and it's difficult to say that a given "tint" will work on a particular kind without just trying it. For knobs with a mainly polystyrene content, ordinary food colorings, or "easter egg dye" often will give them a "color cast" although you're unlikely to get a deep color change. You have to "soak" the knobs for several minutes, and then buff off the excess that hasn't penetrated the surface. The machines themselves shouldn't be harmed as long as they're rinsed well when finished, and perhaps have a dab of grease or a light film of oil applied to any gears.

Tincture of iodine will give the "plexiglass" (polystyrene) once used for airplane windshields a reddish or red-orange tint, if you paint it on, let it dry, and then buff thoroughly; but it doesn't appear to affect the more modern (polycarbonate) plastics more often now in use for both airplanes and storm doors.

If the knobs are PVC (Polyvinyl Chloride) - which we might call "moter of water pipe"(?), like MOTS without the "pearlish" - very few things will "stain" it except the primer used when gluing pipe parts together, and it only comes in "livid purple." That primer might stain a variety other plastics and most lumber yards should have small cans for about $2, but I suspect you don't want the "purple plague pegs."

John

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 12:07 AM

John,
The StewMac article suggested brown shoe polish..wiping off most of it. I'll probably opt for that since they were using it on tuner knobs.
Another appealing thing about the purple primer is that it's about the same color as that stuff you spray on a freshly castrated goat. Tempting as that is, I think I'll probably stick with the shoe polish this time.

Gurney,
I think this time round, I'll probably end up sealing it with something I already have instead of going shopping. That leaves my options as Oil vs Floor Wax. They'd be equally easy to apply but I think the wax might be sticky against my arm..and although I've been pretty subtle about it, I do get a little bit offended when things feel icky against my skin.
I imagine I'll strip another one of these beasts sometime..might as well learn my lesson about fighting the Temptation of Oil now and get it out of my system. I'm going to want to play this guitar Wednesday afternoon. Oil will be a fast, easy way to seal it.

I'm done staining and I turned on the ac so the guitar can be good and dry. The nuts are back on the bridge.
I think I'm ready to seal it Saturday and string it up Sunday.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 12:39 AM

I could use TurtleWax..surely that doesn't soak in?

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 10:14 AM

Fascinating.

Inspired by this thread, I found an old cheap and nasty looking guitar (tuner machines seem ok) at my friend's place (somebody had left it under her house a few years ago) and cleaned it today - looks like somebody had stained it with brown shoe polish and smeared candle wax all over it!

I wonder if they tried some of these tricks...

Also someone wrote all over it with permanent marker pen... and THAT's not shifting.... :-)

It's got one of those little metal things that hold the strings, and looks like the 'bridge' has 'fallen off'... :-)

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 10:43 AM

"The nuts are back on the bridge."

Ah - I remember The Navy Lark!!!

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 04:39 PM

Magic Marker and candle wax..darn, why didn't I think of that?!


sounds like a hideous little treasure, Foolestroupe. I hope you have as much fun with it as I'm having with this one.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Gurney
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 05:30 PM

Felt pen can sometimes be removed with alcohol.

Melissa, I talked with a luthier yesterday who has used automotive lacquer on his dulcimers. He said it works very well, except that sometimes it doesn't! Occasionally, after a while, it 'crazes,' shows a pattern of surface cracking that makes it look old. Perhaps atmospheric conditions when it was applied, perhaps how much was applied? Perhaps the larger areas on a guitar might make it more prone to cracking?
Perhaps crazing might suit your purposes better, making it look older faster?
We also discussed this thread, He thought Shellac might suit you. This is (waxy, chitinous) beetle wingcases dissolved in alcohol and painted on. If you rub it on lots of times, it is called French Polishing. Same stuff, different application system. Chris.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Gurney
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 05:35 PM

Oh, both Shellac and French Polish are susceptible to water damage, showing 'blooming.' Not immediately.
Murray, sorry for spelling your name wrongly.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Jul 10 - 02:28 AM

Melissa, it is Saturday night on the western side of the United States. How is your guitar feeling?

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 04 Jul 10 - 02:37 AM

On this Saturday night in the middle of the US, the guitar is feeling neglected (or relieved) because I gave my hands a day off.

It looks good content quietly sitting alone.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 05 Jul 10 - 12:14 AM

Slight mishap tonight..a cat jumped on the guitar and bumped it off the freezer onto cement. Guess that's one way to sort of give it a 'distressed' look, but it sure isn't a method I like much.

Restringing tomorrow.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Jul 10 - 01:26 AM

Show the cat the difference after the strings are on, and attempt to instill the idea that it's not playable without them.

Whether the two of you can successfully form a touring minstrel team likely depends on whether the cat is an alto or soprano (a baritone cat would be better, perhaps, but they're rather rare).

Can your cat read music, or do you have to provide tab?

John

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 05 Jul 10 - 01:36 AM

We play by ear.
I do have helpful paws that want to play guitar and I'm glad they don't know how to drive..it could get kind of expensive if they learned about stores full of instruments!

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 05 Jul 10 - 03:58 AM

I still have a couple things to do but I strung it anyway.
Nice!

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 07 Jul 10 - 09:13 PM

The guitar has passed it's two biggest tests.
Monday night, my mother approved.
This afternoon, my best friend was impressed and when we were done playing, people who barely deign to speak to me swarmed to get a look at the guitar.

Success!

Thank you all for talking to me while I was working on it. I'm convinced this conversation made my task a lot easier and smoother.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Gurney
Date: 08 Jul 10 - 01:34 AM

Yes, you're not the first to compare my conversation with sandpaper.

:-)

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Jul 10 - 01:39 AM

Well I have installed a new pack of strings (the cheapest were Fender!), but it still doesn't sound too good without a bridge... back to the shop later.... :-0

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 08 Jul 10 - 04:44 PM

Gurney,
Fortunately, I don't discredit the usefulness of sandpaper!

Foolestroupe,
Is the one you're working on an archtop?
Fender is among the cheapest strings at music stores here too.
I'd like it if you'd pop back in to tell how yours sounds when you get it bridged.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Jul 10 - 07:49 PM

More like a 'fallen arches' flatop top.... :-)

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 08 Jul 10 - 08:45 PM

oh dear..that's going to make it really hard to buy shoes for!

How did it lose a bridge? I've never seen floating bridges on anything other than archtops..and I sure did have a heck of a time trying to get the bridge off the one I've been working on!

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: s&r
Date: 09 Jul 10 - 03:03 AM

Kay amongst others made flat tops with floating bridges. They were pretty cheap and nasty

Stu

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 04:22 AM

OK - got it down to the store.

The guy said it has no steel tension rod in the neck - he estimates it as dated about some time in the 1930s. There is NO label or any other ident marks. The fretboard is 'scalloped'. He found a nice cheap rosewood compensated (floating) bridge. He then suggested that I file a slight 'away' edge to the nut and bridge - on the one string he did to show me, it made a hell of a difference. The nut also needs to be filed down anyway as the action is very high on that fret.

Well when tuned and the bridge located correctly, you pluck it and it just hoooooooooooolds the note! I ain't no guitarist, but it DOES sound sweet! fairly bright too - but it needs a while to settle down and 'hold tune'.

Well pleased for something I dragged out from under the house cleaned the dirt and chook shit off....

:-)

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Crowhugger
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 01:32 PM

This has been great fun to follow. Thanks, Melissa! So what's your next project?
~CH.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: GUEST,yves
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 01:26 AM

I did something really stupid. I bought a vintage guitar
that had a really great sound. The wood was very dry so
I took some furniture polish to it to bring out some of
the wood grain. Looks ok now but I lost the rich sound
that it had originally. Polish had some lemon oil in it
and paraffins. Is there any way to strip it back to it's
original (close to) condition. It makes me sick and sad.
Any ideas appreciated.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 01:41 AM

I'll bet you came to the right place, GUEST,yves. There be amazing people here.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Melissa
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 05:54 PM

Foolestroupe,
So you got a decent 30s guitar up and running for the cost of a bridge? Good deal!

Guest Yves,
This thread seems to be about cleaning off furniture polish:
removing wax polish
Good luck. It will be kind of fun to listen to the sound coming back.

Crowhugger,
My next job is to finish up with this one..need to make a label and get some pics taken/posted.
I have a table with water rings to clean up so I guess that's my next big project. It doesn't seem as fun as another guitar would be.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 06:22 PM

the ultra cheap way to get rid of water rings on a table is to rub them with cigarette ash mixed to a paste with water.

it used to work back in the seventies, but everybody smoked back then, might be difficult to get the raw materials these days ...

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 07:22 PM

One could light a cigarette and lay it in an ashtray, I imagine. Remember how long an undisturbed ash becomes?

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 08:06 PM

"So you got a decent 30s guitar up and running for the cost of a bridge?"

No, cost of a bridge, set of fender strings, and some elbow grease.... :-)

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 08:10 PM

Cigarette ash - cigarette tobacco used to contain stuff like potassium nitrate (possibly potassium chlorate) to help keep the tobacco smoldering. They are pretty powerful oxidisers (sort of bleachers). Also dangerous when handing in bulk dry form.

Subject: RE: Guitar: Removing glossy finish
From: Gurney
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 10:30 PM

Yves, was that guitar in bare wood when you waxed it? Paraffins run from a thinnish liquid to a fairly solid wax.