BS: Photographers are terrorists

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 01 Jul 10 - 07:06 PM

"Come to think of it though, I did have long hair then......."

You filthy terrorist!

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 01 Jul 10 - 07:02 PM

There's nowt new about this. Certain people think that wearing a uniform gives them more authority than they in fact have.

38 years ago I was taking some nice dramatic shots of an iron works with my £15 camera (from a road). A guy in uniform approached and said "You can't do that there 'ere". I was polite, asked if I could "just finish this one" and left it at that.

I won - I still have the Kodachromes, but that part of the works closed soon after, and the poor chap probably lost his job. The really silly thing is that some of my shots are now on a nostalgia website about the very same iron works!

Come to think of it though, I did have long hair then.......

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 01 Jul 10 - 06:10 PM

"The trick is not to be obvious."

I see Bonzo, so I take it you think it's better to be covert and secretive while photographing stuff because being secretive about it may reduce the chance of being spotted by a copper?

How do you imagine the police would react to discovering intentionally secretive or covert photography as compared to obvious photography?

My guess is that police would be MORE likely to arrest someone as a terrorist for being secretive about photographing stuff, than being open about it.

Either way, photographers (tourists, amateurs or journo's) shouldn't feel like they have to secretly sneak illicit snaps around coppers for fear of being 'spotted' as terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Jul 10 - 05:49 PM

Bonzo, the Lame, no matter how defiant I may appear at a public shindig I will not expect to have police accost me. If I act aggressive toward anyone, sure, but not if I am simply not smiling. Maybe I'm just having a bad day and am trying to change my mood.

As for having any qualms about photographing anything like a parade - HA. Watching and photographing are what parades are for. I don't believe that the UK and its security forces are that different from those of the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Jul 10 - 05:41 PM

The trick is not to be obvious. If you act as if you are saying "look at me, I'm taking photos, come and arrest me" then more fool you.

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Jul 10 - 05:33 PM

I was brought up to think the police were our friends.

Sometimes I really hate this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Jul 10 - 11:56 AM

Well, now. If the photographer was swinging his camera around by the straps the police may well have legitimately worried about how he was using it. lol

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 01 Jul 10 - 04:44 AM

Guardian article: From snapshot to Special Branch: how my camera made me a terror suspect

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Jul 10 - 04:40 AM

Oh yes...

Arrest anyone who refuses to co-operate!


I'm sorry, but am I missing something here? Have the Nazi's now moved OUT of South America, at long last, daring to spread their jackbooted, black clothed thugs amongst police forces around the world....

Geez!

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 01 Jul 10 - 04:39 AM

Naturally enough in instances of coppers v's the media, abuse of police powers won't go unreported! The fact that there has been coverage of abuse of police powerrs in regards photography has led to some embarrassement at the top and some swift amendements to police guidelines. However it would be nice if those journalists who have been covering these "I'm not a terrorist snapper" stories were examine the broader implications of police not really knowing their limits and being used to getting what they want from the public on demand. The only reason we are hearing THESE stories of abuse of police powers in particular, is because photography either as profession or serious hobby is often something affluent educated white 'upstanding citizens' do. As said previously, broadly speaking, they do not represent a vulnerable or marginalised group who are easily ignored or intimidated.

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 01 Jul 10 - 04:09 AM

The above link goes to a video interview, these are the notes which accompany it:


Video Information
Bookmark Date: February 23, 2010
Posted By: reddit
Source Link: www.youtube.com
Permission: Public
Description:

Man held in police station for eight hours after taking pictures of Christmas celebrations in Accrington, Lancashire.

Police questioned an amateur photographer under anti-terrorist legislation and later arrested him, claiming pictures he was taking in a Lancashire town were "suspicious " and constituted "antisocial behaviour".

Footage recorded on a video camera by Bob Patefield, a former paramedic, shows how police approached him and a fellow photography enthusiast in Accrington town centre. They were told they were being questioned under the Terrorism Act.

Senior police officers last year promised to scale back the use of anti-terrorist legislation such as Section 44 of the act, which deals with photographers, after a series of high-profile cases in which photographers said they had been harassed by police for taking innocuous images in the street.

Patefield and his friend declined to give their details, as they are entitled to under the act. The police then appeared to change tack, saying the way the men were taking images constituted "antisocial behaviour". Patefield, who is in his 40s, was stopped three times before finally being arrested.

He and his friend were taking photographs of Christmas festivities on 19 December, after attending a photography exhibition. The last images on his camera before he was stopped show a picture of a Santa Claus, people in fancy dress and a pipe band marching through the town.

He turned on his video camera the moment he was approached by a police community support officer (PCSO). In the footage, she said: "Because of the Terrorism Act and everything in the country, we need to get everyone's details who is taking pictures of the town."

Patefield declined to give his details and, after asking if he was free to go, walked away. However the PCSO and a police officer stopped the men in another part of the town. This time, the police officer repeatedly asked him to stop filming her and said his photography was "suspicious " and "possibly antisocial" .

Patefield asked if the officer had any "reasonable , articulable suspicion" to justify him giving his details.

She replied: "I believe your behaviour was quite suspicious in the manner in which you were taking photographs in the town centre I'm suspicious in why you were taking those pictures.

"I' ;m an officer of the law, and I'm requiring you, because I believe your behaviour to be of a suspicious nature, and of possibly antisocial [nature] I can take your details just to ascertain that everything is OK."

Patefield and his friend maintained that they did not want to disclose their details. They were stopped a third and final time when returning to their car. This time the officer was accompanied by an acting sergeant. "Under law, fine, we can ask for your details we've got no powers," he said. "However, due to the fact that we believe you were involved in antisocial behaviour, ie taking photographs then we do have a power under [the Police Reform Act] to ask for your name and address, and for you to provide it. If you don't, then you may be arrested."< br />
There is a section of that act that compels a member of the public to give their details if a police officer suspects them of antisocial activity.

The sergeant also alluded to complaints from the public and, turning to Patefield, added: "I' ;m led to believe you've got a bit of insight into the law. Do you work in the field?"

Patefield was arrested for refusing to give his details, while his friend, who gave in, walked free. Patefield was held for eight hours and released without charge.

In a statement, Lancashire police said they and members of the public were "concerned about the way in which [Patefield] was using his camera". It said police felt they had "no choice" but to arrest him because he was refusing to co-operate.

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 01 Jul 10 - 04:05 AM

Are we being detained officer?

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Jul 10 - 01:08 AM

That directive is absolutely clear on the matter. So what is the excuse in any officer's mind? A parade is about as public an event as it is possible to have.

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 11:15 PM

That is a very useful link gnomad. Reports of police harassment of photographers abound and I would think any keen photographer might be wise to carry a print.

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: eddie1
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 08:21 PM

Hey Gnomad
Thanks for this - very useful!

Eddie

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: gnomad
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 07:43 PM

Here's another link, giving the police view of their own rights & obligations, Met. Police Info. I don't feel that all officers were complying.

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 06:50 PM

Excellent link, gnomad...thank you. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: eddie1
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 05:48 PM

I can understand why many people comment on Mudcat once, receive tirades of abuse, and never come back!

My comments were regarding a policeman abusing his position with this 16 year-old photographer. I was not referring to any other situation/time/person/ethnic group.
I have not "only just realised that its a police state"
I have not been living under a stone!
I am not "quite happy with the crap you are fed by the world at large, without question"
I do "wake up look around, listen to people, question what you are told"
I do "actually hear what your community is saying to you"
I do not "only transmit what you are told."

I did not give you any grounds in my post to come up with the crap you did. You don't know me, have no idea of my beliefs, thoughts, ideas, opinions, feelings or personal standards but you, in your wisdom, read way more into my posting above than I was saying.

Hence my ""I'm a genius at making unbased assumptions" award for 2010 (and quite a few years before that too)" statement.

Eddie

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 10:00 AM

i'm seriously considering mounting a digital video camera to the handlebars of my bike
ready to get number plates and footage of any idiot careless drivers who
come far too close to injuring or killing me..

..of course, then there'd the the issues of 'evidence' and police indifference to contend with..

..let alone any laws i'd be potentially breaking by video recording
everything in front of me on any routine cycle journeys within 20 or 30 miles
of my front door...???

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 09:37 AM

I always have my camera you never know) and my Sansa Clip music player which can record sound, albeit in mono and poor quality, but good for stealth voice recordings.

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 09:30 AM

Yes, I appreciated his confidence as a lone teenager being barracked by several mature men in uniform. Somebody mentioned his 'tone' earlier, what we see here is someone vocally defending themselves against intimidation and harassment after having been physically grabbed by a probably much larger and stronger man. The coppers 'tone' is far more intimidating IMO and he refuses to hear the young chap out or answer his question, but instead shouts him down. I think the young photographer did well to keep his cool considering the circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: number 6
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 09:19 AM

We live in an age of absolute paranoia ... paranoia, a propaganda tool used extensively by our governments.

Lizzie ... thanks for sharing that link "Anthem for Dissent" ... you should post that in the G20 thread ... it explains very well why we should protest the G8, G20 or whatever exclusive clubs there are for the power governments of the world.

my thanks to that 16 year old kid .... he's a hero in my books.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 08:42 AM

Woops, pressed the thingy too fast..

...the full and brilliant words for 'Anthem for Dissent' are on there, in the title bit below the video, just press to get them to show up.

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 08:41 AM

Eddie, you could play your listeners this...

'Anthem for Dissent'

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 08:32 AM

PS, Ken, if you know who took my alloy wheels and spare gearboxes, can I have them back please? (NB - joke!)

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 08:30 AM

Eddie1 - I don't think you have any idea how the police generally treat traveller and Roma communities do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: gnomad
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 08:22 AM

It seems to me that the initial problem arose from an officer attempting to exceed his authority, though doubtless with honest intent. When his bluff was called by a better-informed but younger person he fell into the old trap of trying to stand on his dignity. Thereafter it all went downhill as a succession of officers joined the confrontation, and automatically backed up a colleague, despite his position being at best questionable.

The young man was within his rights in wanting to know what specific law he was supposed to have broken, but his tone (and presumably his manner) were such as to increase the likelihood that he would be seen as a problem.

I suspect that Jules was aware of his rights, possibly from this campaign http://photographernotaterrorist.org/ and that at least one of the later officers was too, but the first officer certainly doesn't seem to be acting with those rights in mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 08:19 AM

PS this is the third story I've read about police harassment of lone photographers going lawfully about their business in the last couple of months - one case a young art student was filming buildings, and another a pair of amateur photographers were snapping some public event in a shopping mall. Both contested why the police were interfering in their activity and were given no answer. Both were accused of breaching the peace after persisently but politely refusing to surrender personal information without good reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 08:14 AM

If I had time I would post links to a dozen similar stories going back over a couple of years. A lot of the actions taken by police are actually outside of their powers.

mousthief - in the UK you may be arrested for trying to film the police.

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 08:13 AM

Unlike many of the bums and hippies and other "undesirables" police have traditionally routinely harassed, many professional, well educated, well spoken, white 'upstanding citizens' enjoy photography as a hobby.

While the police are used to getting away with treating hippies blacks and bums badly, we'll be hearing more of this sort of abuse of their powers now that they're treading on the toes of less socially marginalised groups.

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 08:00 AM

Eddie....here's a song you may like to play your Community:

A Song of Freedom from the Days of Once Upon A Time, when it *would* have been played on *every* single radio station....


Now, the Proles just get music to keep them happy or amused....

I told the BBC to play 'Arrogance, Ignorance & Greed' the other day, on Facebook, on their 'Singalong with Des O'Connor' headline......

I got banned...again.....

Freedom of Speech???? In THIS world? In THIS climate? Yeah, right!

"There goes your freedom of choice, there goes your last human voice, there goes your last DJ.."

DJs have Power, but they WILL NOT use it! They will NOT burn their playlists and get back to playing protest songs as they once were allowed to...because The Boys Upstairs don't want The Proles to get agitated and maybe start to THINK!

I get so bloody incensed at what is happening in my children's world!!

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: eddie1
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 07:41 AM

Romany Man
Not worthy of a long reply but you get my "I'm a genius at making unbased assumptions" award for 2010 (and quite a few years before that too)

Eddie

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 03:38 AM

YAY! Let's get Jules into Parliament, as fast as we can! Fearless, intelligent, bloody minded and right on for Freedom!!

Can you imagine how flummoxed that police officer was! Heehee! Just put it on my Facebook page, so thank you for putting it on here, number 6.

And with regards to these ridiculous laws about taking photographs in public places, of children etc...Yeesh, the world's gone nuts, and suddenly ALL of us are being viewed as paedeophiles...I mean????????
All the crazy criminal record checks going on, even those ladies recently who arranged the flowers in a church, who...quite rightly, told the church where to stick their 'checks'....

We need to get back to common sense once again and leave behind this Age of Suspicion, because it's making ordinary life extraordinary in all the wrong ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: romanyman
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 02:50 AM

only just realised that its a police state ? oh do wake up and come out from under the stone you live under.
as chair of a community radio station you should be so aware, but it seems you as many others are quite happy with the crap you are fed by the world at large, without question, wake up look around, listen to people, question what you are told , what does it take for people to realise that living in a free country you have rights, huh try and excersise them and see what happens, do you actually hear what your community is saying to you, or do you only transmit what you are told.

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: eddie1
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 01:59 AM

This is both scary and ludicrous at the same time.

As Chair of Reading Community Radio, I am aware of the need to have parental permission before interviewing children who will be identified and of the need for our volunteers who will be coming into contact with children, young people and vulnerable adults to have Criminal Record Branch checks. This is for fairly close contact.
In this case however, we have a PUBLIC parade. What is the purpose of a public parade? To be seen!

During the parade there would be hundreds, if not thousands, of people with cameras, mobile phones and video cameras. Did the police remonstrate with all of them?

Full marks to the young lad for attempting to stand his ground and to ask reasonable questions, to which he did not receive answers. The use of one expletetive, apparently when being pushed downstairs, is excusable.

The words Police State come to mind.

Eddie

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 01:58 AM

sheesh I listened to the whole thing and to my mind, the young man was not aggressive at all, only reactive. He should have insisted that they arrest him and take him in. There he would have had a clear shot at showing how silly they were.

It looks to me like the officers had hold of a tiger's tail and didn't know how to let go.

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: Gurney
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 01:34 AM

New young coppers sometimes do a stint undercover.

Subject: RE: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: mousethief
Date: 30 Jun 10 - 12:05 AM

The police are going to get away with less and less of this shit as more and more people start recording them with their cell phones. Although the Rodney King trial shows that maybe they will still get away with it.

Subject: BS: Photographers are terrorists
From: number 6
Date: 29 Jun 10 - 11:54 PM

Interesting.

16 year old photographer hazzard to public and national safety


biLL