Does Religion Deny Music to Children?

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: Smokey.
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 01:25 PM

"I don't particularly care if my kids get religious doctrine or not - but I do want to teach them all there is to appreciate in a tree. Part of what I see in a tree is what I call its "divine essence." And yes, in my contemplation I see union with that essence. Others may call it something else, but I hope we all can comprehend how perfectly beautiful that tree is."

A round of applause from Smokey, using both hands.

I'd probably call it 'nature', but it's the same thing and undoubtedly one of the greatest joys of living. 'Divine essence' is a perfectly adequate description, I just don't take it literally.

Excellent posts lately from both Joe and Willie.

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 10:36 AM

Well Joe, I can understand becoming attached to a tree, but of course, trees are real. You can see a tree.

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 04:46 AM

Did you notice something?

"Thou shalt not kill" is a mis translation. Oh, well that's alright then.

Tell you what, if I were religious, I would have grave issues with such logic chopping in the name of something I hold dear.

Sorry, but the more I read, the more I notice blinkered tacit acceptance of how religion is a tool for more temporal aims. Here in The UK we have had issues with people who want a punch up in the name of fun associate themselves with football teams and of course as a football fan, I am quick to point out that their actions are not those of a football fan, but an ignorant thug who must hate football enough to embroil it in such bad news stories.

In a similar way, there are those who make a travesty of people's spiritual faith. It must be frustrating if you are of the persuasion that anything written over a certain number of years ago must be divine. "Not in my name" is the usual cry of the indignant. Never occurs to anybody that their flavour of religion is, and only can be, the sum of all its activities and actions. So, to say violence in the name of a religion is nothing to do with the religion is, in the final analysis, picking and choosing to say the least. No matter, the old testament doesn't exactly teach morals that hold up in a civilised society, so thankfully, the vast majority of decent sane people gloss over their inferred creed. Virtuous hypocrisy is nothing to be ashamed of....

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 03:47 AM

Riginslinger says: it would be a lot easier to solve problems if everyone was dealing with reality.

What's reality, Rig?

I have a favorite tree. It's a Ponderosa Pine, maybe 150 feet high. It's at the edge of my property, and then the land drops off and there's nothing until you reach the Pacific Coast Range, 80 miles west of us. When I look out my front door, all I see is that beautiful pine, with nothing but sky beyond it. I've seen it frame awesome sunsets, amazing lightning storms, vivid blue sky, and an infinite variety of cloud formations.
My tree has some scars, and its branches are gnarled like I've never seen on a Ponderosa, so it hasn't had an easy life. I've seen families of birds move in and out of that tree, and once I saw a Great Horned Owl in its branches.
I first got to know that tree in 1999, when I would come up regularly to visit my friend Jim, who was dying of colon cancer. I married Jim's widow, and the tree became part of my family - or vice versa.
So, that tree and I have had a long and rich history, and I spend a lot of time contemplating that beautiful creature.

What's the reality of that tree, Rig? And isn't the reality of that tree very different for you and for me - even though both of our perspectives are true?

I don't particularly care if my kids get religious doctrine or not - but I do want to teach them all there is to appreciate in a tree. Part of what I see in a tree is what I call its "divine essence." And yes, in my contemplation I seek union with that essence. Others may call it something else, but I hope we all can comprehend how perfectly beautiful that tree is.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 10:57 PM

Many religious people, certainly the ones that I know, tend to deal quite well with reality. Sometimes a bit better than folks who have no faith in much of anything. Or anybody.

You don't know a whole lot about religion there, Rig. You draw conclusions without any real knowledge of, or acquaintance with, the subject.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: GUEST,Riginslinger
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 09:34 PM

Still, it seems to make sense to me that it would be a lot easier to solve problems if everyone was dealing with reality.

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 06:01 PM

Denying religion to children is exactly what Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin, and Hitler did.

Blaming religion and murdering its believers was something Hitler did with a great deal of zeal.

I don't agree that any of these men are responsible for any breakouts of peace or compassion anywhere at any time.

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 05:43 PM

Just hoping for a more peaceful planet, that's all.

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Jul 10 - 01:34 AM

"If there is (the qhoted Commandment), the Christians and the Jews seem not to have heard of it."

Every single, solitary one of them, Rig?

Ye gods, man, think about it! That's a blatant example of the forbidden "B" word if I've ever seen one!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 10:54 PM

Well, Riginslinger-
I think you'll find that Christians and Jews who actually go to religious services, usually don't do much in the way of killing. Killing has more to do with machismo, than it has to do with religion - but there are many who kill in the name of religion and don't have much time for prayer and reflection and attending religious services.

And you say:

Just think what a peaceful place the world would be if we could deny religion to children.

Well, for some people, religion is just an excuse for their hatefulness. If they weren't allowed to have religion, they'd find another excuse to be hateful.
But there are other people, for whom religion is a way to express love and generosity - should they be forbidden to bring their children up with the values of love and generosity? For that matter, should society have the right to regulate the way people bring up their children, and the ideas they express to the kids? I dunno, Rig - that's really frightening to me.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 10:46 PM

'"Isn't their something in the Ten Commandments about "Thou shalt not kill?"'


               If there is, the Christians and the Jews seem not to have heard of it.

The commandment is actually "thou shalt not murder" -- the KJV translates it inaccurately. Although admittedly the boundary between "killing" and "murder" is a bit fuzzier than Hebrew grammar seems to allow.

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: GUEST,Riginslinger
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 10:14 PM

'"Isn't their something in the Ten Commandments about "Thou shalt not kill?"'


               If there is, the Christians and the Jews seem not to have heard of it.

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 06:51 PM

There's a Latin proverb that sums it up pretty well - corruptio optima pessima.

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 05:26 PM

John 11:35

Small wonder. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 05:16 PM

Well, yes, in fact that is the case.

For example, some tribal regions in the mid-East where the only thing that keeps some groups from following their age-old traditions of slaughtering each other is their common belief in Islam.

Of course, there are also tribes that continue to slaughter each other on the basis of minor differences in interpretation of the Koran. But is that the fault of Islam? I don't think so. More like a human failing.

This sort of nincompoopery is not unknown among some Christian "tribes" in this country. Just got a newsletter thingy in my morning e-mail about "Christian Reconstructionists" (many of whom are "Tea Party" enthusiasts) who are delighted with the latest Supreme Court ruling about keeping and bearing arms. They're thinking of leading an armed rebellion against the "socialistic, anti-Christian Obama administration" and "restoring" the United States as a "Christian nation." And they want to be sure they have the means to murder as many government types (and anyone else who disagrees with them) as necessary to accomplish the task.

Isn't their something in the Ten Commandments about "Thou shalt not kill?"

So—are these people truly religious?

I don't think so! Certainly not according to the Scriptures, which these same folks insist on telling us, is the inerrant Word of God!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 04:22 PM

There are differing schools of thought on that, Rig.

Not always of course, but frequently throughout history religion was the only civilizing force within some societies, binding the people together and inducing them to stop killing each other long enough to learn that if they got along and cooperated, everybody would benefit.

I know you don't see it that way, but often that's been true. And in some societies it might still be true.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 04:00 PM

Just think what a peaceful place the world would be if we could deny religion to children.

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 11:10 PM

Bloody brilliant!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 08:23 PM

Nor do their automobiles bear bumper-stickers saying "In case of Rapture, this car will be driverless!"

I like the one that says, "When the Rapture comes, can I have your car?"

There is a website (or two) where Rapture believers can buy "post-Rapture pet insurance" -- pay now, and when the Rapture comes, avowed atheists (who clearly will not be raptured) will continue to care for Fido (or Mittens), so you can go happily to be with Jesus and not worry about your beloved pet. Sheer f***ing genius. I hope they make a mint.

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 07:43 PM

True, McGrath. But, unfortunately, they take on a prominence—or are given a prominence—that is far out of proportion with their numbers

The religious Right, predominently in the southern United States, made up particularly of the Southern Baptist Leadership Conference, plus a loose confederation of fundamentalist, Biblical literalist, and Pentecostal sects, make up a fairly substantial number of "Christians" in the U. S. They tend to be politically active. They are in general opposition to the idea of separation of church and state, insisting that "This is a Christian country," despite what it says in the U. S. Constitution.

At the same time, they cling to such things as the Second Amendment—the right to keep and bear arms—and other Constitutional stipulations that suit them. In short, they "cherry-pick" the Constitution in the same way they do with Biblical verses, taking, out of context, that which they feel supports their particular beliefs and prejudices while ignoring those parts that contradict or negate their position.

I don't have any figures as to comparative numbers, but a couple of things are certain:   the vast majority of the "electric preachers"—television and radio evangelists—are literalist/fundamentalists (Pat Roberson, Jimmie Swaggert, Jerry Falwell, Jim and Tammy Bakker, et al);   they are far more stridently vocal than moderate or liberal Christians (moderate and liberal in both the religious and political senses), who generally tend to work quietly in the background without blowing their own horns;    and, perhaps most importantly, the news media seems to concentrate almost solely on the pronouncements of the religious Right, usually with such preambles as, "Christians say. . . ." creating the impression that all Christians are in agreement when this is not the case at all!!

Pat Robertson's outrageous pronouncements ("The Haitian earthquake was God's punishment because the Haitians practice voodoo!") get quoted and re-quoted, while you almost never hear anything said by those such as Rev. Jim Wallis

You don't find moderate and liberal Christians backing you against a wall, stuffing tracts down your shirt, and demanding to know if you've "been washed in the Blood of the Lamb!??" Nor do they come in pairs, knock on your door, want to "evangelize" you by telling you all about Jesus (their version), and sell you copies of The Watchtower. Nor do their automobiles bear bumper-stickers saying "In case of Rapture, this car will be driverless!"

The church I often attend is a member of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). Their idea of "evangelizing" is not to buttonhole you on the street or corner you in your home, but to show by example. Which is to say, "Actions speak louder than words." And they model their actions on such things as what Jesus said in Matthew 25:35-41, which I quote in a post above.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 01:42 PM

The religious Right in the South.

That's a really tiny proportion of the world's Christians, and in this context especially, an extremely unrepresentative variant.

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 04:21 AM

Damn, my last post seems to have got lost in the system. rather proud of that one, rattling on about Bach.. Made me feel as if I knew a bit... never mind. can't remember it now so it may not have been quite so clever after all.

Atheism is indeed a stance if people say it is. Atheism is a lack of a stance if again people say it is. For me, I prefer irreligious. It suits me. it means, for me, that I am not hostile towards peoples' creed, just the many, and especially their spiritual leaders, who feel what they believe is right, (and why shouldn't you think that, i suppose) therefore inflict it on others. Everything from influencing politics on the day to day level all the way to getting society to play to their tune. Such people are dangerous.

Dangerous includes Abu Hamza, the cleric the USA are trying to get extradited from the UK at the moment. You can have him, (so long as you don't murder him. Our extradition terms are clear on that at least.) But what can you do with somebody who says God told him his work is not done till there is a Caliph in The White House?

Dangerous includes those who inflict child abuse, all the way from direct (other threads cover this so not going to rattle on now,) to abuse through stopping children from joining in for bizarre reasons, all the way to telling them science has a mission to disguise the truth, that Darwin was evil and all that codswallop. Even on this thread, I am shocked and amazed to hear somebody who can type and use a computer claim science is wrong and God made the earth a few weeks ago. then... some contributors don't help in my opinion by pointing out the worthiness of some of this person's other comments. Sorry, but if somebody is being irrational, you can't pick and choose, it doesn't help them. They think therefore there may be merit in other things they say. if somebody is intelligent enough to join the debate, then their ignorance has to be pointed out. One of the reasons fundamentalists of most religions seem to be on the increase is that the rest of us are told to accept their right to their opinion. It only encourages the buggers, (in the same way I suppose as voting encourages politicians.....)

Joe's stance in general is one I can be comfortable with. That said, I could never call myself a Christian, but the pragmatic common sense he adds to this debate can sometimes make me feel a bit extreme in my paranoia of people who think they have a right to judge me for my lack of superstition.

I do have a moral code. I get it from the same place insects do. Where that is, NOBODY has found out yet. I also believe in things that cannot be explained. Like all football fans, it is, in the cold light of day, irrational. Sheffield Wednesday got relegated, are playing awful football and have business problems that are reflected by attitudes of players. YET I support them, remain of the faith and get into all sorts of heated arguments in the pub defending them, even when I know at the intellectual level my argument is fatally flawed.

Got a mate who's a vicar, and I could also be describing some of the "debates" we have over a beer or ten.

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 01:33 AM

Howard, I don't really think I have a "need to attribute them to a 'divine essence'" - I just see a divine essence in things, whether other people see it that way or not. It's not a need to see things, it's just the way I DO see things. I'm not claiming it's better or deeper or anything - it's just the way I see things.
And Stringsinger, repression affects everyone, not just atheists. I could argue that we liberal Christians get it with both shotgun barrels from the fundamentalists, because they think we have betrayed "the true faith." Certain people (mostly extremists and absolutists on the right and the left) have a mindset that fears any opinion other than their own, and they feel a need to repress all other thinking.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 01:24 AM

Here you can't perform religious holiday songs lest you offend somebody. So you get kids doing midwinter holiday concerts with Frosty the Snowman and Rudolf the Red-nosed Reindeer and other fluff, but none of the great music that this time of year has inspired over the last 400+ years. To balance stringsinger.

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 01:10 PM

Ah! But there you have exactly what I've been saying. The religious Right in the South.

Things are quite different where I live, largely because more denominations are represented and most of them tend to be liberal, both religiously and politically. Music is a very important part of many churches around here, and not just music performed by the choirs.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: GUEST,stringsinger
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 11:36 AM

Religion is a threat to music programs if you intend to perform songs
for Halloween, or some of the other holidays. In many Southern US schools, these songs are ver boten for the dominating Christian Right. And they are all over the South as well as the North. Censorship is here and much of it is religious. More and more, we see a growing virus of religious domination in our schools, on the media, government and military. Don't kid yourself. Freethinkers and Liberals are under attack from Muslim and Christian religious groups. I see no "divine essence" in any of these atrocities.

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 03:25 AM

Joe, your response is very well put. The key sentence for me is "But, for the most part, there is one thing that separates me from these people I admire so much - I see a divine essence in what I see, and they do not. "

I can can see all the things you mention, without feeling the need to attribute them to a "divine essence". I am slightly puzzled why some people feel this need, but perhaps that points to a failing in me.

I can even entertain the thought that the universe is so vast and wonderful and complex that it cannot simply have "just happened". However precisely because it is so vast and wonderful and complex I cannot imagine why any creator should show any particular interest in me, out of the billions of lifeforms on this planet alone.

I should add that I am entirely comfortable with this view and don't feel either that this view diminishes me in any way or that I am lacking something in my life. I don't feel a need to have a god in my life.

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 12:45 AM

True dat. Time was when many more middle-class families had pianos in the parlour, and somebody in the house would be able to play it while people stood around and joined in.

Today we have a AM, FM, XM, Satellite, online radio, CD's, music DVD's, mp3 downloads, and everybody has an ipod plugged into their head continually. And probably fewer people are able to make their own music than ever before. We really have gone from being active people to being passive consumers. We're consuming more music than ever before, and it's more ephemeral and less participatory than it's ever been. Seems to me.

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: GUEST,Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 11:35 PM

Yeah, I was looking up some of the best selling musical hits of all time a few months ago, and at some point, up until, I think, the late 1930's, they tracked the popularity of music by the numbers of copies of sheet music that were sold, then they changed to recordings.
            We've gone a long ways backwards, it seems to me.

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 10:27 PM

I think we've come to agreement on that, rig. Religion is a relatively small threat to school music programs. The bigger threats are budget cutbacks and the preeminence of varsity athletics.
....and the fact that people now think music is something you buy, not something you do.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: GUEST,Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 10:13 PM

Okay, Joe, I watched the piece. I have two observations: 1. I wish music was compulsory in the school district where I pay taxes--it's not, all the money goes for athletics--and the authorities need to get a grip on these buffoons in the UK.
             If people are dumb enough to pull their children out of music, they ought to be charged with child abuse and prosecuted. We can't have these stupid superstitions screwing up children's lives forever.

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 09:53 PM

Rig - ya gotta read the first message. This thread has strayed a bit from the original topic.
I am of the opinion that a bit of "going astray" is healthy - that may not meet the expectations that some people have for people who practice religion. Such is life....

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: GUEST,Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 08:28 PM

As much as I find religion to be a never ending pain in the ass, I'll have to admit the music is wonderful. I'm confused about the title of the thread.

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: Smokey.
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 06:54 PM

All of it, but mainly the conclusion that "atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist".

My nearest dictionary says:

"the theory or belief that God does not exist."

Mine is theory and not belief because I am always open to the possibility of being wrong.

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 06:25 PM

That's not a definition that's three definitions. Which is the one you agree with?

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: Smokey.
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 04:50 PM

From Wiki:

"Atheism, in a broad sense, is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists."

That is a definition with which I can agree.

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: Smokey.
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 04:25 PM

Unfortunately, you don't get to decide what words mean.

Mousethief, much like Humpty Dumpty I get to decide what I mean when I'm using them, and incidentally, I never call myself an atheist.

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 04:13 PM

There is no such thing as an atheist.

Tell that to the American Atheists. Or the Atheist Society of Australia. Or the ... well, you google for them.

For me, it's not a belief.

Unfortunately, you don't get to decide what words mean.

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 03:13 PM

"...maybe I admire them because they are so much like I am - they keep exploring the depths of the wonders that surround us; and they are wonderful, altruistic, compassionate, intelligent people. But, for the most part, there is one thing that separates me from these people I admire so much - I see a divine essence in what I see, and they do not. I wouldn't dream of arguing with them and attempting to prove the existence of that divine essence. I can't prove it - but I see it, and they don't. They see something different, and I have learned remarkable things from the difference of our perspectives." Joe Offer

Joe, that is a wonderfully accepting, respectful credo. It is something we all can strive for.

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 03:09 PM

What have atheists done for children? Contributed "common sense"?

Well, I imagine that most atheists love their children as the most precious things in their universe. Could we ask for more?

And religious people do the very same thing for their children. Nothing more, and nothing less.

-Joe-

Damn. I worked on my previous message a little too long, and Smokey got #200....

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 03:04 PM

Hmmm. Howard gives me something to build on:

1) to explain how the world and mankind came into existence, and to explain natural phenomena. Unfortunately none of the religions seem to be able to agree on this, which makes their explanations suspect. However there is now a scientific explanation, and although admittedly our knowledge is still far from complete, for most people this provides a more plausible answer.

2) to provide a moral code by which to live. However the general principles which most religions espouse are mainly the ones necessary for everyone in society to get on in peace and harmony. Many non-religious people follow these principles, and equally many religious people fail to live up to them.

3) to offer comfort to those people who always get the shitty end of the stick in life that things will be better next time, although usually with the threat that things could be even worse if they don't toe the line. The cynical might see this as a means of social control.

Well, Howard, if that's what religion is about, I wouldn't bother. I suppose it's nice to speculate on how the world and mankind came into existence, but it's really not all that important to me. And you're right about moral codes - they're a natural thing, what's necessary for people to get along and survive in society. And I get far more comfort from people who love me, rather than from religious authorities - and if they threatened me, I wouldn't believe them, because I think things have natural consequences that don't have a hell of a lot to do with authority.

So, religion isn't any of those things - at least to me, it isn't. But what it is, is very difficult to explain in terms that convey its impact and value. It's an exploration into the depths of our existence - seeking a deeper meaning in humanity, in life, love, and death, and whatever else there is that mystifies us. It's seeking the best end of humanity, holding onto ideals like peace and altruism - even when they don't seem practical. It's looking at a tree or a baby or a lover, and seeing something deeper than an organism that can be deconstructed and analyzed and known completely by scientific processes. It's exploring the mystery and meaning of traditions that have been held by humans for millennia, speculating that somehow I have a tie to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - and therefore to all humankind.

This "religion" that I have expresses itself in myth, like the creation myths and all the other wonderful stories treasured by believers (and not necessarily understood literally); in ritual and in sacred traditions such as following dietary laws; in legendary heroes like patriarchs and saints and saviors; and in a mutually-supporting community of believers.

For me, all of this is a big part of the essence of who I am. It's not an authority system at all. I have no use for authority, other than the fact that it serves a function in making things work - sometimes.

Now, I could do all of this and be non-theistic. But part of me tells me that there is a divine essence to all that I encounter, so I therefore do believe in God.

There are several Mudcatters, like the late Rick Fielding and a number of others, that I have had the deepest respect and admiration for. And maybe I admire them because they are so much like I am - they keep exploring the depths of the wonders that surround us; and they are wonderful, altruistic, compassionate, intelligent people. But, for the most part, there is one thing that separates me from these people I admire so much - I see a divine essence in what I see, and they do not. I wouldn't dream of arguing with them and attempting to prove the existence of that divine essence. I can't prove it - but I see it, and they don't. They see something different, and I have learned remarkable things from the difference of our perspectives.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: Smokey.
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 03:02 PM

What have atheists done for children? Contributed "common sense"?

You'd do well not to take me quite so seriously, Mousethief, and to read exactly what I wrote. Besides, you are misquoting yourself. As far as I'm concerned, atheism and atheists are two different things.

Ha. Common sense existed long before atheism

When did atheism start existing then, in your opinion?

and exists in many places outside of atheism. Want to try again?

Indeed, I know many religious people with common sense in abundance. I didn't say otherwise, though I'm not certain whether "outside of atheism" is quite the right expression - I would never normally lump non-atheists together as a group.

The idea that atheism is a mere absence of belief is contradicted by almost everything every atheist has ever posted on the World Wide Web.

I regard atheism as an absence of belief in God or Gods - I'm not responsible for what you or 'every atheist' (?) thinks it is. For me, it's not a belief.

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 01:14 PM

What religious people do does not necessarily define the religious belief they say they subscribe to. For example, the Biblical passage I quote above (Matthew 25:35-41) is central to the message that Jesus was striving to convey. In short, a clear instruction to His followers.

But—when self-styled "Christians" say that matters of social and economic justice are merely "trendy social agenda" and have nothing to do with what's in the Gospel are clearly wrong, and are not following the precepts set down by the Jesus, the founder of Christianity.

The fact that they don't understand the religion they claim to subscribe to is not a reflection on the religion itself. It is a reflection on them, and points up their own failure.

This is usually called "hypocrisy," but I think that more often than not, it reflects sheer ignorance.

####

"Atheism is not the absence of belief.

"It is the belief that there is no God."

Contradictory. It either is a belief or it isn't.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 01:06 PM

"I don't believe in flying saucers."

"I don't believe in capital punishment."

Same word, a very different sense.

It seems to me that a lot of the time people arguing about belief in God, either way, are mixing up those two meanings of the word.

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: GUEST,Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 11:30 AM

You're right, Willie, so that leaves music as the one thing religion has to offer that has any real value.

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 11:18 AM

Lox is right, atheism is a stance, the stance that there is no God. My point is that there many people, some on this thread, who call people who don't have a stance on religion atheists. I am differentiating of course between having a stance and having a view. I don't have a stance (creed, belief system etc) but I do have a view, (why do people with religious views think they have the right to influence society on the basis of those views?)

Hey Joe,

I hear you, but even after digesting your last post over a decent coffee, I still have problems agreeing. You seem troubled by my (admittedly provocative) use of the word superstitious. Having a moral code based on not upsetting a mythical being is superstition in my view. Calling an elderly German dude "Holy" seems like superstition from where I am coming from. Saying Mohammed wandered off for a few nights and came back knowing what we all must do so not to displease a mythical being sure seems like superstition to me. When some of my friends say they cannot eat meat that is not halal, cannot touch alcohol; it can only be superstition if you miss out the existence of God. As God as ann interventionist being cannot exist, then yep, you are left with superstition.

And I ain't talking Stevie Wonder either....

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 10:00 AM

Atheism is not the absence of belief.

It is the belief that there is no God.

Agnosticism is the absence of any conviction either way.

Agnositicism says there might be a God, but there might not.

Atheism says there is no God.

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 06:19 AM

It appears to me that religion fulfils three main functions:

1) to explain how the world and mankind came into existence, and to explain natural phenomena. Unfortunately none of the religions seem to be able to agree on this, which makes their explanations suspect. However there is now a scientific explanation, and although admittedly our knowledge is still far from complete, for most people this provides a more plausible answer.

2) to provide a moral code by which to live. However the general principles which most religions espouse are mainly the ones necessary for everyone in society to get on in peace and harmony. Many non-religious people follow these principles, and equally many religious people fail to live up to them.

3) to offer comfort to those people who always get the shitty end of the stick in life that things will be better next time, although usually with the threat that things could be even worse if they don't toe the line. The cynical might see this as a means of social control.

It is clear that millions of people find comfort and joy in religion, and I have no problem with this, although I don't share it. The problem seems to be that most organised religions end up getting bogged down in doctrinal detail and lose sight of the big picture. Willie mentioned the current debate in the Church of England about gay priests; there's also a debate about ordaining women bishops, which apparently poses a real threat to the unity of the church. As an outsider, I struggle to see what this has to do with the teachings of Jesus, just as I struggle to understand what studying music has to do with the Five Pillars of Islam.

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 05:26 AM

Otherwise I agree, religion has no place in law.

Subject: RE: Does Religion Deny Music to Children?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 05:24 AM

"There is no such thing as an atheist."

An atheist has a belief system: they believe that the Gods that others believe in, do not exist. Not having a belief either way would be a different matter.
That's: "I dunno and I don't care whether there is or there isn't a God", not atheism.

"Not being a stamp collector" is equating belief with practice, it's a bad analogy.