The ultimate folk event listings site {{England!!}

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site {{England!!}
From: GUEST,jennyr
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 03:32 PM

Marvellous, yes - it works now! There are hardly any events left, but they're all in the right area - I guess now it's just a question of persuading the event organisers to add their details.

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site {{England!!}
From: Bob TB
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 08:45 AM

Thanks jennyr. Have another go and see how you get on. Some early entries were set to a wider range than they should have been, I've updated them to show for 30 miles only. Works OK for me now. If it still doesn't look right for you PM me with your post code and I'll have a look.

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site {{England!!}
From: GUEST,jennyr
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 06:37 AM

Nice idea, Bob, but I think your 'local' searching might still need a bit of a tweak. I typed in my postcode and was bombarded with events in Barrow-upon-Stoar, which I've never heard of but according to Google maps is over 60 miles away...

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site {{England!!}
From: Bob TB
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 12:57 PM

Old vermin - Give us a chance!

Kitty - Thanks. Might even make your session at Sidmouth for more than 15 mins this year!

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site {{England!!}
From: Old Vermin
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 06:52 AM

Had a look - content bears no relationship to what I know about bar Sidmouth which is 150+ miles away.

Conceptually, I reckon Martin Kiff's webfeet site for eceilidh and other dance is the way to do these thing, rather than relying on promoters to know about the site.

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site {{England!!}
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 04:16 AM

Happy to give you a reference if required Bob! See you at Sidmouth, I hope.

Kitty

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site {{UK!!}
From: Bob TB
Date: 09 Jul 10 - 07:00 AM

Sorry all, been away for a few days (must get a dongle before Sidmouth!).

Mr Red - Thanks for you comments. Much appreciated. The thread title is, of course, hyperbole to attract attention (although it would be nice). I understand your points on keeping everything up to date - these issues have already been raised with me and it may well be the big flaw in the plan. I have some thoughts on this and we will see how it develops. Maybe I will fail but I think it's worth a try. I like a challenge!

I was not aware of your web site. Behind the curve? No, just an ordinary folkie who didn't know about it and failed to find it through Google. I guess there's thousands like me.

Arthur-itis - You haven't discovered the quick way to enter similar events! I will make this more obvious. When you've entered an event once go to "Add event" and you should see that event listed under "Your previous events". Click on the 'Add to programme' button for that event - you get taken to a single page where you can just change the date and artist in a few key presses. You're in a loop then and can keep adding to your programme until you decide to quit. I find it very fast. (That said, I also have an outstanding to-do note to add a save button on all edit pages.)

Links should open in a new tab/page. I'll fix it. Thanks for the information.

BNP - I have already accepted this as an issue. My current solution is that if someone edits an event who is not the original poster the edit will be submitted for moderation before being displayed. That should reduce the moderation to a managable level and remove the need for you to monitor your events while allowing you to edit as you wish.

Bob

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site {{England!!}
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 05 Jul 10 - 04:49 PM

OK Fair enough PC Sorry

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site {{England!!}
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 05 Jul 10 - 02:24 PM

Arthur itus - if you had had the courtesy to read the whole of my post before responding you would have seen that I was agreeing with him.

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site {{England!!}
From: GUEST,Saoirse
Date: 05 Jul 10 - 01:24 PM

Arthur itus, have a look at Mr Red's Irish links - hopelessly poor!

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site {{England!!}
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 05 Jul 10 - 01:14 PM

Mr Red is not a wet blanket. Mr Red has an ace website and knows what he is talking about.

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site {{England!!}
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 05 Jul 10 - 10:47 AM

Mr Red seems a bit of a wet blanket but I am afraid that after many years dealing with both printed and web listings I have to agree with him 100%

In particular people are quick to publicise their new event everywhere they can but they seldom bother to go back to all those listings when it closes.

You will need to be ruthless in requiring regular confirmation of details. Once you get a few duff entries people will stop trusting the entire site.

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site {{England!!}
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 05 Jul 10 - 10:35 AM

Bob
Whilst it is pretty quick using the template for each new date, in most cases when you have put the date and time, that's all you need. The rest of the info for many singaround/sesssion venues doesn't change.

request - please put a save button on that first page as well please. It saves a lot of time not having to click on about 8 OK's and a Save for each new date.

If a venue puts a website link, surely it would be better for you, if your website remained as an open window and the venues website opens in a new window.
At the moment when you click on a venue website link, it opens in the same window.

The situation concerning other people altering somebody else's input is a critical error.

We have just seen the example where somebody set up a facebook diary for the same sort of thing. To make life easy, the creator of the Facebook account made everybody an Admin.
Vic Smith put all his dates into it, and somebody else who wondered why all these events were there, when they wanted to add their own venues details, calmly deleted all Vics events, thinking thats what they had to do. That actually happened.

Cheers

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site {{England!!}
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Jul 10 - 10:12 AM

Bold claim old boy.
1) people don't tell you.
2) people don't tell you to keep you up to date. Because THEY know it is.
3) people don't tell you when it folds because they are fed up with a) landlord, b) people c) wife's complaints d) all of the above.
4) You will rely on other peoples' hard work, who don't know how up-to-date their info is.
5) you will rely on well presented sites that are demonstrably out of date, except you are not local enough to know.
6) listing websites are not about the ability to make websites, even if you go to the depths of Java/JavaScript/PHP/ASP and hide the cleverness. The clever bit is networking.

There are people in the know that I buttonhole at festivals, they know what question I am about to ask and relieve the sameness by laughing - but they tell me & appreciate the methodology - first hand knowledge!

And I share my information with SADfolk, Glosfolk, Shreds and Patches, Shirefolk, Unicorn, Sabrinaflu and a few other information junkies. They correct my hunches &/or thank me.

It is the way Folkies work & work best, and it is the way the internet works. It is the best you can do with the anarchy that is the web.

Good luck, PAL, but it is not about boasts or HTML - it is about logistics and integrity and that is a long hard continuous slog. There is no respite. And if you do raid my site for info - be a sweetie - credit your sources with cross links. Ask me and I will link to you in exchange. see this for starters

If you don't know my website - you are way behind the curve.

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site {{UK!!}
From: Bob TB
Date: 05 Jul 10 - 08:43 AM

Yes BNP could be a problem. I'll think on that. As long as it remains practical I'll cast a quick eye over all edits anyway. Edits are logged with email and IP address so I have some chance of kicking the culprits off.

A possibility is that the event has up to 4 joint owners one of whom must approve any edits. Whoever first posts the event becomes the owner and must also approve additional co-owners. (Does that make sense?) More complicated but could be made to work.

Just to be clear on the artists thing - that's actually two lines (not 3, my mistake) and it's lines in the actual listing, not three entries in the box on the form. You can get quite a lot of artists in the space, see some of the festival listings. The limit should only be an issue to festivals. Most people won't get close to it.

Bob

Description is actually limited to 50 characters.

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site {{England!!}
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Jul 10 - 07:55 AM

Ooops! Lost my cookie.

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site {{England!!}
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 10 - 07:53 AM

Bob TB

TheSnail's problem is fixed. I can't reproduce EFF's problem.

Well, mostly. Thanks Bob. I can now enter events through AOL. (I just did.) Sorry not to have got back before, busy weekend including the event I was trying to post.

I agree with George that the limit on the Artist names/Description is a bit of a problem, especially as the 3 lines rule doesn't seem to apply to the description.

A greater problem for me is George's point a) -

Anyone with an account can go in and edit any listing - listings don't appear to be "owned". I just edited one listing without any problem. This is a huge hole that needs to be filled to avoid abuse.

Three important letters - B N P. You compare with Wikipedia but the point there is that it is constantly monitored by volunteers. I don't want to have to check events I have put up twice a day to make sure they haven't been tampered with.

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site {{UK!!}
From: Bob TB
Date: 05 Jul 10 - 06:07 AM

Hi George,

The idea that anyone can edit is deliberate, its like wikipediia. It allows anyone to add or correct so we should have fairly accurate information. Who would 'own' a listing - the artist? their agent? the venue? the promoter? All have an interest. If it becomes a problem I will deal with it but I believe it will work. Feel free to edit the Herga listings!

Artists names are limited by the space - 3 lines. Unfortunately, with a proportionally spaced font that can vary a lot when it comes to number of characters so a straight count won't work. When the preview overflows a warning is given so you do know when you have exceeded the space available. The preview shows you how you are doing and acts like a count.

MySpace feed would of course be complex but it is relatively easy to provide a link from another site to the listings here. It would also be straightforward to insert data pulled from here into a club site.

If you enter an artist in the search 'for' box you will see all events for that artist. Yes they may be incomplete - it is up to the artist to keep there entry up to date. Given that the artist, venue, and promoter all have a vested interest one of them should make sure eacg gig is listed. By linking, as above, the artist only needs to enter information once for this site and their own.

I see your legal point. Don't think I've ever said that the list is guaranteed complete but will make sure the T&Cs cover this.

Bob

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site {{England!!}
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 05 Jul 10 - 05:30 AM

Good, friendly layout. Issues with it so far:

a)Anyone with an account can go in and edit any listing - listings don't appear to be "owned". I just edited one listing without any problem. This is a huge hole that needs to be filled to avoid abuse.

b)When adding artists' names, there is clearly a limit in the number of letters that can be used. This is not obvious - there should be a live counter to help with this, as there is in Facebook, Twitter etc.

c) I can't see how you can feed other event listing sites with the contents. You can give me an extract for my club website perhaps, but surely you couldn't feed MySpace, Ents24 and all these other sites without their permission.

d) Am I correct in thinking that this seems to be event-driven rather than artist-driven? Fair enough, if so - though it means that it is of no use to artists, and they still have to maintain their own gig lists on websites, MySpace etc. Therefore, if I want to see where my favourite artists appear, this listings site may be incomplete, and only the artists' own sites can guarantee me correct info. No real problem, as long as that is made clear to avoid setting wrong expectations (in a litigious world an artist might have a ligitimate grudge if this site claims to be giving "all the information on his/her appearances" when in fact it depends on all relevant clubs and venues participating here and keeping listings up to date). Not a huge problem, but it means that you should include a disclaimer to this effect, rather than advertising "see where your favourite artists are appearing"...

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site {{UK!!}
From: Bob TB
Date: 05 Jul 10 - 05:21 AM

CJ - Wales, Scotland and NI are welcome. The 'England' was added (not by me) after the comment above from the US. I've changed it.

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site {{England!!}
From: Bob TB
Date: 05 Jul 10 - 05:18 AM

Rob - Probably not a lot as I guess you can customise your settings on RemoteGoat. On a brief look at that site I couldn't find a way top do a local search without registering. There was also a reference to a 'full search box' which isn't there! It's quite hard to see what additional services they offer - see above for my plans.

My site is aimed specifically at minority genres (just folk for now) and is ONLY a listing site. It's simple, dedicated and (I hope) will be much more comprehensive than these generic sites. You will notice that the search is folk specific.

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site {{Englan
From: Continuity Jones
Date: 05 Jul 10 - 05:12 AM

Hey Bob, shame this is just England, probably worth including Welsh & Scottish info - and heck why not - even Northern Ireland?

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site {{England!!}
From: Bob TB
Date: 05 Jul 10 - 05:06 AM

There are a number of mudcatters who can give me references if required! You will also find my name and address if you look under T&C. I have nothing to hide.

Login is necessary if people are to add their own entries in order to prevent abuse - it helps determine that they are genuine and let's the bad guys know that I can track them down if necessary. You can browse the listings without logging in.

The idea is that you enter your own events - there are far too many for me to do them all! This is one reason why sites like this have failed in the past. However, as a gesture of goodwill I have added your events as best I can from the information provided.

Now, I have this fortune left to me by an uncle in Nigeria and I need help getting it into the UK. Maybe you can help...

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site {{England!!}
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 05 Jul 10 - 04:52 AM

Not had a look yet, but what are you offering that an even more comprehensive nationwide service (ie not just music) like RemoteGoat doesn't offer?

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site {{England!!}
From: breezy
Date: 05 Jul 10 - 04:40 AM

Dont like the 'login and password and giving of me e-mail' to anyone or thing.

I'm sure you are bona fide

at least you didnt ask for my bank details - yet

if you are sincere then if I tell you that every Thursday from 15th July to the 26th of August I'm hosting a 'Holiday folk evening' in the upstairs room of the Padstow Social club, Padtsow, Cornwall, then it will appear on your listings

'Hosted by Breezy'

Meanwhile all the best Bob TB

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site {{England!!}
From: Bob TB
Date: 05 Jul 10 - 04:32 AM

Thanks to everyone for the constructive comments and bug reports. Do give this a chance - I believe it can work but needs to reach 'critical mass' to really take off.

I have added a brief note at the top of the listings to explain why you may see some events (festivals) at a greater distance than expected.

TheSnail's problem is fixed. I can't reproduce EFF's problem.

Bob

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site {{England!!}
From: Bob TB
Date: 04 Jul 10 - 05:23 AM

Thanks EFF. That would be a great help. Cheaper than me going out and buying a Mac! It has been tested on Safari/Vista.

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site {{England!!}
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 03:04 PM

Whooo don't you have a fine set up there EFF

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site
From: EnglishFolkfan
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 02:43 PM

BobTB
I'm using an Apple iMac 2G Intel Core 2 Duo & Snow Leopard OSX and Safari 5.0. My Techno Lad is visiting tomorrow so will get him to run his webcheck whiz and see if he can identify any probs re accessibility via Macs.

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 01:23 PM

Ah OK, when I had a look it appeared that you would have to pay.

I will look again.

Thanks

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site
From: Bob TB
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 01:20 PM

Who said you had to pay? It's FREE.Only additional advertising features, such as having your listing in bold will be charged for.

It's also available to visitors to the area who may not know about those sites. Not being geographically it will work much better for people on the borders of your area - one site to check, not two or three.

Additional features such as weekly emails, SMS reminders and mobile device support are not available form most small sites.

(Oh, and I am a backwoodsman from the Flatlands - missed being born in Lincolnshire by a couple of miles though)

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 12:49 PM

Can anybody explain why you would want to pay for this service?

In the Uk there are some excellent folk diaries that are free and serve their purpose. For example

http://www.folktalk.co.uk/talk2.htm

http://users.tinyonline.co.uk/fizgig-tom/folkgigs.htm

http://www.peterboroughfolkdiary.org.uk/homepage.aspx

Certainly good enough for me and any backwoodsman/woman from the flatlands of Lincolnshire

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 12:19 PM

Hi Bob

That was on AOL. I've just tried on Firefox with more success but not total. I'll PM you the details.

Bryan

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site
From: Bob TB
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 12:09 PM

@Joanne - Sorry, I forgot the US members! My wildest dreams do include an expansion to the US if it works over here.

@TheSnail - Ummmm. How ever much I test on different systems there's nothing like having other people try it to find the bugs! It works fine for me and the handful of people that have tried it so far. I'll think about that. Can you let me know what operating system and browser you are using. Thanks.

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 11:54 AM

Hi Bob

I've registered and logged in but when I click Add Event it just takes me back to the Log In screen. If I try and log in again, it at first ignores me and clears the email address field and on the second attempt it takes me back to the listings screen.

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site
From: CupOfTea
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 11:50 AM

Might be nice to call it "The ultimate folk event listings site for England"

Just sayin' from the American point of view. We do have some events over here in the colonies (and would love to have an ultimate folk event listing site for us, too!).

I do wish you all the best in having this live up to your expectations and the hopes of those who would access it.

Joanne in Cleveland (the one in Ohio)

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site
From: Bob TB
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 11:28 AM

OK, in no particular order...

Yes, this information will be shared in due course. You can sign up for emails now, I expect them to be up and running within the next 3-6 weeks. RSS and SMS will come. Pulling data automatically of other web sites is not easy. I will however be offering automatic insertion of my data in other web sites - e.g. folk clubs or artists can include a programme or gig list in their site by accessing our data. This will save updating two sites.

The site has been tested on all major browsers and there will be a mobile friendly page that automatically lists events in the immediate vicinity. For the same reasons as Google I don't guarantee support for IE6 - it works but there may be odd layout issues.

The sites people are seeing that are not local are all festivals. I can see the issue here, Maybe I need to make the defaults and choices clearer. At present the basic range is 30 miles - within travel distance for an evening out. Festivals attract people from much further afield and it would be of little interest to the the organisers to only be shown for 30 mile radius. So festivals are listed up to 250 miles - many of us will travel that far for a weekend. I may tweak the ranges.

EnglishFolkFan - Not sure why the postcode gets stuck. It works fine on my three test machines. Can you let me know your browser version and operating system and I will try to fix it.

Bob

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site
From: EnglishFolkfan
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 09:44 AM

Seems a glitch in the system somewhere: on entering one's postcode it remains forever thus blocking any further searching of the listings to check what is actually in the system. The problem remains even when leaving the site and reconnecting. This site would seem to be offering Promoters additional paid for enhancements to their entries thus am I right to believe it is a commercial enterprise. May I suggest some rigourous testing please BobTB before you go 'paid for' in August.

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 08:47 AM

'Fylde, Ashby de la Zouch and Sidmouth to be local to Cambridge, nor to my postcode'

Nor to mine (not in cambridge) yet I got them too...

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site
From: treewind
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 08:27 AM

A quick look: I understand the lack of events closer to home as it's a new site, but I don't consider Fylde, Ashby de la Zouch and Sidmouth to be local to Cambridge, nor to my postcode when I tried both. Herga is just plausible in that we can get there and back home for an evening.

Aside from that, Jack has made several good points.
Good luck...

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site
From: Continuity Jones
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 08:26 AM

That's the spirit, Jack.

Good luck Bob.

Subject: RE: The ultimate folk event listings site
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 08:14 AM

We've been here MANY times before.

How are you going to acquire and regularly validate the data?

Are you willing to share it by some easy-to-use protocol - automated emails, tweets or RSS, say?

Can you, for a start, auto-incorporate all the listings on thesession.org and anything I put on my Twitter page?

Will the information be available on any browser and via SMS?

If not, what are you doing that 40 failed UK listings sites haven't already done?

Subject: The ultimate folk event listings site
From: Bob TB
Date: 03 Jul 10 - 07:07 AM

I know there are a lot of folk listings web sites out there. Many of them are local and unheard of outside of the area. Some are fairly specialised. Quality varies a lot. There isn't a single place to go to find any folk event.

I believe there is room for a comprehensive, national, well presented and professional site where you can go to find out what's on anywhere in the country. A 'one stop shop' to find where to see your favorite artists, who's on at your local club, where to go when you are away from home and so on. If you get emailed a weekly programme for your area, even better.

So I have started www.SimplyWhatsOn.com . Do check it out -just put in your post code to see events near you.

OK, so it's a new site and there's not much listed just now so please do add any folk event you now about. It's easy and anyone can add events. (Club organisers - once you've done your first entry it is very quick and easy to add your full programme).

I want this site to be THE place you go for to find out what's on but it will take time to build it up so do be patient and keep checking back.I'm serious about this site. Comments and suggestions are welcome - use the contact link on each page of the site or chat to me at Sidmouth.

Best wishes to all,
Bob