A- Ceilidh a new genre?

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 12:31 PM

Fiddles stage right is certainly traditional in ensembles. Possibly something to do with the way right hand people hold their instruments, and where the sound is directed? I can't quite figure out if there is any logic in that theory.

It is traditional, but thinking about it now it would make more sense for fiddles to be stage left; my thinking being that they naturally turn to their right in the standard playing position, so would be facing more into the centre of the stage/auditorium if they were stage left.

Similarly it would make sense for the talented and creative geniuses in the flute section (no bias or personal interest there!) to be stage right because the barrels of the flute are therefore pointing out the edge of the stage and the musicians facing slightly inwards in their natural playing position. Unless Michael McGoldrick has joined in of course.

Maybe the traditional arrangement is so that both the fiddlers on stage right and the flautists on stage left are kept more comfortable by all facing slightly away from the accordionists in the centre :)

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 07:24 AM

Is it something to do with who is poking who in the eye with a bow, flute or guitar neck?

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 06:06 AM

Fiddles stage right is certainly traditional in ensembles. Possibly something to do with the way right hand people hold their instruments, and where the sound is directed? I can't quite figure out if there is any logic in that theory.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 05:53 AM

One of the things that we haven't sorted is who sits with who. Clearly some people are not allowed to sit together because the get up to badness.

But otherwise? Percusion at the back? Whistles at the front?

Any guidance

Definitely keep percussion at the back (not sure Greg's put the bodhrans far enough away but you get the general idea). Get the guitars, bouzoukis, etc (also any basses) together and close to the percussion, as together they're the rhythm section and need to work together or else the whole thing will go TU.

Make sure the band leader is within communication/poking distance of the lead percussionist.

After that just try to keep groups of instruments together, maybe arranging things so that the quieter instruments aren't immediately next to the massed ranks of piano accordions so that the quieter instruments can hear themselves think/play. How about squeezeboxes in the middle, fiddles stage right, whistles stage left?

And if you really can't put certain people together because they might get up to too much mischief, I'm afraid my only suggestion would be that that they need to grow up a bit and concentrate for 5 minutes for the greater good of the success of the overall project :)

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 05:42 AM

Percussion, and backing instruments in general, were kept at the back in the acoustic days of jazz, and that would be ideal for your kind of lineup I would think. This helps to keep the percussion noise levels down, as the front line turn round and snarl if they are being deafened. In addition the bodhrans should be behind a thick stone or brick wall, out in the street.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 05:34 AM

How about the percussion: 4 Bods, 1 Bongo (?) 1 tambo!

One of the things that we haven't sorted is who sits with who. Clearly some people are not allowed to sit together because the get up to badness.

But otherwise? Percusion at the back? Whistles at the front?

Any guidance

L in C#

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 03:54 AM

Three banjos... And you lived to tell the tale? :-)

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Feb 11 - 02:30 AM

Thanks Becky,

much fun was had. We are interested in sharing experience with other bands who are playing for dancing in small venues with out a PA

L in C#

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 03 Feb 11 - 11:35 AM

Looks and sounds like a great time, Les.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 03 Feb 11 - 03:33 AM

Still listening

L in C#

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 02 Feb 11 - 03:43 AM

We played for our second Acoustic Ceilidh (A-Ceilidh) last Saturday. Around 200 in the room, 40 turned away.

We have a local environmental festival each April. It's called The Big Green Festival - stands, workshops, displays, live music, loads of things for kids - all things sustainable.

The Ceilidh was a launch and awareness raiser. Our brilliant Caller, Rob Phillips used a radio mike and 27 of us, 3 banjos, 3 guitars, 6 percussion, 4 squeezers, 8 assorted whistles, 'cello, fiddle and guitaron, played acoustically.

Seemed to work well for the dancers. Lots of video here:

The Beech Band at The Big Green Ceilidh

Well done Rob & The Beech Band
L in C#

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 07 Nov 10 - 09:24 AM

It went well and much fun was had

Any more advice?

L in C#

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 03:42 AM

OK Folks it's official. We will, if The Beech Band turn up, play for The Friends of Ghyll Head, at Chorlton Irish Club, Saturday 25th September, with Mr Rob Philips as our caller.

Comments on last times fun will be most welcome. If you didn't make it last time put it in your diary now and we will agree tunes shortly.

Cheers

L in C

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 03:42 AM

I guess that's the influence of boats and The Potteries?

L in C
searching for coat

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 03:14 PM

Great way to while away the tedium when the caller is setting up the dance, throwing pebbles at the dancers. I use a half brick sometimes, or empty bottles.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 12:41 PM

Me too
L in C#

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Old Vermin
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 10:21 AM

Mr Campin "we had to throw every note like a pebble at the furthest-away dancer. "

Hadn't realised Mudcat was also for poetic image. Nice.

And yes, marquees aren't ideal. Did a choir gig in a big marquee the weekend before last. Audience appeared to be enjoying it and themselves. Could we hear ourselves? To an extent.

Did have a very nice very-mini-ceilidh earlier this year. Local players in the museum garden one afternoon. Hard surfaces - walls and paving. Just one couple dancing - I essayed something mildly jivey to Michael Turner's with Sue and Steve took over for Mazurka d'Auvergne. Idyllic.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 10:18 AM

Always? Ours seem pretty laidback!

L in C

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 08:53 AM

But the life of a ceilidh man is always in tents!

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 08:16 AM

Good point Jack - outside and in tents is really difficult. We have been asked to play outside and I think we might turn in down

L in C

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 07:50 AM

Old Vermin's picture is of a ceilidh in a marquee. That can be very unfriendly for acoustic instruments - canvas just seems to eat sound. But feet on flattened grass or wood chippings are at least quiet.

I have played for a wedding in a marquee with just me (recorders, whistles, flute) and a harp. It worked, just. We stuck to very familiar dances that didn't need calling. It felt like we had to throw every note like a pebble at the furthest-away dancer.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 07:28 AM

Any more reports of A-Ceilidh?

L in C

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 05:38 AM

These type of Ceilidhs have been going on for years in North Lincolnshire for example

Reely Grim near Caistor

Also

AVID ceilidhs in the Isle of Axholme

And Iwould 'nt be surprised to hear of more elsewhere in the U K

Gerry

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 03:00 AM

All good points Mr Vermin.

As for paying musicians, I am all for musicians getting paid the going rate. If a Ceilidh band travels some distance, puts of a PA, plays from 8 until 11, takes the PA down and travels home they deserve more than the minimum wage not least because they, in my experience, do a great job entertaining loads of people.

But most of the people playing and singing do it for nothing because they like it and that is part of the nature of folk or traditional music.

But another scenario is loads of musicians from a tune session, playing informally and locally in a smallish room for friends or for a charity fund raiser. Walk to the venue, play 8,30 - 10.30. Go home with no PA rining in our ears. So little money can be made on this scale that it hardly seems worth bothering - unless it is fronted by a charity and they bring dancers along and run a raffle and so on.

All good fun hey?

Les

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Old Vermin
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 03:09 PM

But if lots of musicians really *want* to come and play for a small dance...

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Old Vermin
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 03:06 PM

Pleased to hear it, LiC. It's so difficult to do subtle inflexion in type. Writing paragraphs at legal length might clarify if anyone read them.

Limited as to requirement. I think original point may have been that an extra melodeon might not add a lot. I was recalling a fleeting conversation. I'd brought another instrument, and the view was that had I brought another melodeon this would have been redundant. Anyway, this could digress into a discussion about whether even one melodeon is an absolute essential. However....

Miked caller, yes. Unless late at night on campsite or a very intimate venue.

I've been told that amplification really is needed for musicians, but that was typically for a venue with perhaps half-a-dozen or eigth or so sets more sets -
sort of thing or in a hotel ballroom.

Going on from there, smaller venue means fewer dancers, perhaps less cash to pay musicians. One then gets into the economics of ceilidhs discussion. All for love?

My personal preference is for something small and not too crowded, without amplification. Doesn't happen too often.

Hey-ho.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 10:47 AM

"you might just perhaps be seen as seeking to add discord where there was harmony"

Not me Mr Vermin. I am very aware that these threads have a habit of tuning nasty after about 20 posts and I am keen that we bat along sensitively.

I hope we are exploring the idea of acoustic ceilidhs. The current wisdom seems to be quite a few instruments, smallish venue, miked caller.

We can all decide who we want to invite to our homes to play with but if you have a public event it's hard to see, with out being rude, how the number or type of instrument can be limited.

I have no problem with this - anybody who turns up is made welcome and we all play.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 09:56 AM

Any chance of posting the video somewhere Facebook refuseniks can see?

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: greg stephens
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 09:25 AM

Yes, I've tried that, it works fine. It's good to get one player of something loud(eg cymbal or snare drummer) to have the sole responsibility of marking the end of the 8-bar phrases.. Earlier in the thread(or maybe in some similar thread) I also drew attention to a BBC archive of an old guy reminiscing about dancing to a thrashing machine. And I think someone else raised stories of dancing to the diesel engine of a canal boat.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Old Vermin
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 09:21 AM

Could you get away with just percussion?

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: greg stephens
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 07:00 AM

I've done ceilidhs playing one melodeon as the only melody instrument. The other 5/6 people were all playing percussion of various kinds. Vey interesting, seemed to work fine.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Old Vermin
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 06:21 AM

Les_in_Chorlton - about Phil Gorton's dictum that one melodeon is sufficient, you might just perhaps be seen as seeking to add discord where there was harmony.The context was the small ceilidh band or pub session. Phil is a very gentle and polite character. I cannot imagine him asking a surplus melodeonista to desist. Context is all. That may lead back to the point about the Bismarcks - fiddle, melodeon and keyboard - being the essence of a ceilidh band.

As far as big sessions go, I have a very pleasant recollection of the Towersey slow session in the Dance House last year, and the necessity for melodeon players to space ourselves far enough apart so that we could hear the lead instrument - probably a fiddle - at the front. That was, for me, both useful and enjoyable. Useful because I discovered that playing by ear was possible for me - not perfect, but possible. Enjoyable because it was just lots of English music to listen to and try to play.

There's probably a plethora of threads about the transition to playing by ear, so I'll leave that alone here.

The thing that does terrify me is the thought of trying the Sailing Club vast sessions at Sidmouth. Very big, very tight indeed in many senses of the word.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 05:30 AM

Any more general advice or views on Acoustic Ceilidh?

L in C

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 05:27 AM

I remember in about 2002 when the old 3 piece Steamchicken were at the Anchor with Martyn Harvey, and the heavens opened. The PA bloke switched everything off and walked away, so we wedged ourselves under a pub brolly in the middle of the car park and got on with it. Seemed to work too, although it did bear a strong resemblance to the ceilidh in the ford which has definitely never taken place!

I was there and it was excellent (if a trifle soggy), although I must confess I'd forgotten it was Steamchicken who did such a sterling job.

When I'm in Sidmouth I always try to play for the CitF (not that it happens of course), so it was my first and only experience of what the CitF must be like to dance in (were something like that ever to happen, which, of course, it doesn't) ...

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: GUEST,Ted Crum
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 01:47 PM

I remember in about 2002 when the old 3 piece Steamchicken were at the Anchor with Martyn Harvey, and the heavens opened. The PA bloke switched everything off and walked away, so we wedged ourselves under a pub brolly in the middle of the car park and got on with it. Seemed to work too, although it did bear a strong resemblance to the ceilidh in the ford which has definitely never taken place!

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 03:36 AM

Thanks Mo, a very reassuring piece of advice

L in C

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 01:07 AM

English tunes are DANCE tunes. And if you want to dance (with stepping) you've got to take them steady. You need someone to skip round while you are playing to tell you how it feels. Too slow and you're up in the air for ever and can't come down. Too fast and you have to walk - fine for American contra's and squares, slow and bouncy feels wrong for that.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 10:08 AM

Certain amount of journalistic hype about how totally unknown and ignored they have been till someone is now recording them etc etc. They toured England acouple of years back, maybe more than once, and I(and no doubt many others) have a CD of theirs. Good stuff it is too.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 10:02 AM

Have a look at this - amazing

The Jolly Boys

L in C

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 07:25 AM

Interesting point Mr Vermin, what would he do, ask the second melodeon player to leave?

"The point?" - to play with others - that's our point. The only limit is the size of the room. We can get about 30 at an absolute squeeze. The problem then is not enough elbow room to play melodeons, etc.

I think about 100 people played in one of the Beginners / Improvers Session at Shrewsbury last year and I assume they all enjoyed taking part. It remains my inspiration.

Quite a few Irish sessions happen around Manchester. They play quick and in strings of 3, 4 or 5 reels and so on. Most if not all of them play extremly well and the music is very exciting. But most of us don't expect to get to that standard and we have the feeling that most of our English tunes sound OK at a steady pace

As Greg said above "There is room for us all...
Yes indeed. But there is also a time and place for everything. "

Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Old Vermin
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 07:12 AM

Numbers of boxes?

I think it was Phil Gorton of the Hogs Back Band who recently observed that there's no point in having more than one melodeon playing at a time. Context may have been sessions rather than dance, and I seem to remember HBB play amplified.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 06:49 AM

It makes a fairly obvious point that you alude to - music is essentially a cooperative activity. I haven't always felt that at some sessions which is a shame.

I guess when people get really good - well ahead most, but not all of the Beech Band, they like to play a bit quick and change the tunes often.

I wonder how many sessions happen around the UK and how many could get together of r abit of social dance?

Les
Still denighing all suggestions of anything much - but great fun

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 06:38 AM

You can't escape it, Les - the calm demeanour, the tenor banjo, the avuncular grey hair and moustache, the position centre stage front - all point to you as the Godfather. :-)

All joking aside, it's a great way for people of mixed abilities and different instruments to play together with some element of discipline, and in a "live" situation for dancers. What a great way to learn melody, tempo, pace and the art of communal music making.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 06:24 AM

Thanks Will,

it was great fun. Tempo is a good point, some tunes we can't play too fast at present and I am not sure we have a strategy for deciding the tempo. Ged leads us in with a short phrase and that has worked really well but clearly speeding up is a bit tricky with so many. Still it was the first time for dancing so lets see where it goes

Les
Avoiding all suggestions of authority

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 06:09 AM

Just watched the video, Les - what a hoot! And recognised some Beech faces from my visit earlier this year. You looked very authoritative, stage front, centre...

It looked like a session with dancers attached - what an orchestra, eh? I would have taken the "Soldier's Joy" a tad faster meself but it seemed the right pace for the dance and with all those musicians present.

Great stuff - I look forward to seeing and hearing some more. :-)

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 24 Jul 10 - 02:37 PM

Here are some photos and a video clip from The Beech Band's first Ceilidh:

Live at Chorlton Irish Club

Cheers

L in C

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 24 Jul 10 - 02:28 PM

The last time we went to the Spa at Whitby other dancers critisized us for not taking the dancing seriously enough. Seems to me to miss the point of social dance really.

in some of those big dances safety seems more of an issue than ability - baskets can lead to serious damage.

All good fun?

L in C

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 24 Jul 10 - 04:22 AM

Another small one was the one we had in our lounge. Some of my friends wanted to try calling, so the invitation was come along, dance, play or call, or do some of each. We could possibly have fitted two squares but mostly we had 1 set. More musicians than dancers, we dropped in and out of the band. Didn't enjoy dancing on carpet much though, and I'm not sure we've got all the furniture shifted back yet.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 24 Jul 10 - 04:16 AM

Smallest.
I did a birthday party ceilidh with Marilyn last year in the customers front room. Two standard 12' rooms with folding door in between, some furniture cleared but some left in, so that the 'cowgirls' could rest on the sofa. Marilyn and her melodeon in the corner. Room for 1 long set (across both rooms) or 2 small circles. There were up to about 8 couples dancing so it fitted fine.

Biggest I've been to.
The Spa, Whitby (they call it the Pavillion now and no-one knows what I'm talking about).


As far as changing tunes go, just watch the dancers go wrong when they have happily been getting it right without needing the call any more in Blaydon Races. Then the band changes and 'swing / promenade' reflex kicks in.

Subject: RE: A- Ceilidh a new genre?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 24 Jul 10 - 03:33 AM

A-Ceilidh - biggish bands in smallish rooms?

I enjoy Ceilidhs whatever even that very large one at Shrewsbury - is that the biggest or do people know bigger ones?

Small ones? Most of us use church halls and social clubs which are small or school halls which are probably too big fo A-Ceilidh

'a time and place for everything. Indeed
L in C