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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Jul 10 - 10:54 AM Can we just put into context the 'handful of contentious) marches. These are the ones in Belfast and Derry; they are the most intimidating and they are targeted where they can give the greatest amount of offence; unsurprisingly - it is these that cause the most trouble. Gerry Kelly's plea that the Loyalists should cop on to themselves is carefully steered around in this debate - not as convenient for the argument, I suppose. It has been inferred throughout this debate and the Bloody Sunday one that, because I take the stance that I do, I am somehow waving the flag for the Nationalist side, yet here once again we have yet another attempt (by the one who shouts the loudest for the Unionist cause) to blame 'the other side' - see last post. The Loyalists aren't the only ones who should cop on to themselves - all trouble is a response to the provocation caused by the marches and the practice of the marchers who have been banned from marching in Nationalist areas parading back through those forbidden areas when the march has officially finished. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Jul 10 - 08:03 PM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Lox Date: 21 Jul 10 - 10:17 AM Just wanted to repost a couple of posts I made as a GUEST which Joe has kindly ressurected for me. Post 1. "Sandy, China had law on its side over Hong Kong. The lease expired." Whose Law Keith? The "unequal treaty" as it is known (signed at gunpoint by China) stated that Hong Kong Island and Kowloon were to remain British in perpetuity. Only the new territories were on loan for 99 years. You don't go deep enough. Ever. Post 2. "When my boys were small, they saw a Chinese dragon in a parade that really scared them, and that was meant to be scary." Exactly how is this meant to form the basis of a salient point about Northern Ireland? ""curtail their threatening nature" Bowler hats? " Ever seen "A Clockwork Orange?" .... "A KKK march in Harlem would be seriously contentious. Most Orange marches are not. A handful out of thousands." A KKK March anywhere would be contentious. The point is that a KKK March in Harlem would probably provoke a lot of anger in Harlem. The Orange Marches are contentious. The evidence is the debate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 21 Jul 10 - 11:37 AM The debate is not evidence because the participants are not a random sample. You say the orange marches are contentious, but Sinn fein says overwhelmingly they are not. In what way are you better informed than Sinn Fein? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Emma B Date: 21 Jul 10 - 12:53 PM What Sinn Fein actually said "There are over 3000 orange marches each year. Irish republicans accept the right of the Order to parade and to promote its sense of orangeism. But this has to be on the basis of equality and mutual respect and tolerance. The overwhelming majority of orange parades take place without rancour or dispute. But there are a small number which each year give cause for concern. Irrespective of the differences which exist between us, let us all focus on how to resolve the remaining handful of contentious parades in a spirit of mutual respect. As a society, we cannot afford the negative and unsustainable political, financial and social costs from parading disputes" ** The Pardes Commission which was set up after the large-scale civil strife that followed the Drumcree conflict over an Orange Order parade in Portadown, has achieved some success by placing restrictions on or banning outright any parades in Northern Ireland it deems contentious or offensive however the Grand Lodge of the Order has a policy of non-engagement with the Commission and there are still disputes as to whether this is done to the letter of the law in certain areas. Bowler hats may not be offensive in thenselves but one feature of these parades, the bannerettes carried by the lodges through Nationalist residential areas, most certainly can be! For example - In 2007 a commemorative banner honouring UVF gunman Noel Kinner was carried by members of the Scottish Sons of Ulster Flute Band during the Orange Order's Whiterock parade. Noel Kinner was convicted of killing Brendan McLaughlin just a couple of hundred yards away from where this banner was displayed. Brian Robinson a UVF and lodge member who was shot dead on 2/9/1989 by a British Army undercover team, just after he shot dead a catholic resident of Ardoyne, Patrick McKenna, has also been 'honoured' on a parade banner. ** an open letter to the Orange Order from Gerry Adams |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: ollaimh Date: 21 Jul 10 - 02:21 PM the founding documents of the orange order atated they were dedicated to the elimination of catholicism and the gaelic language and they advocated violence to do so. they were founded as an openly racist and violent order. they have been successfull in usi8ng a militant minority to alter the course of events. they have ammended the foun ding documents but they still celebrate domination. the fight between the loast stuarts and the house of orange was about the anti catholic bigotry of parliament. they had to go to the fifty first heir among the stuart descendants to dind a protestant, over looking the first fifty in line, purely for religion. catholics were barred from p0ublic office, from many professions and from government jobs--except the army. all open discrimination that the orange order kept alive long after partition. oe of the choef items of the good friday agreement is that governmant jobs have to be shared equally now. the police and army will not be all protestant any more. that means the loyalist paramilitary will no longer be able to operate from the corner of their desk in the police offices or the army.\\ again all this was found and admitted to in parliament after the publication of the tripartite report on northernireland. for the record if you have never read at least a symopsis of thatreport you really have no right to an opinion on these issues |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Aug 10 - 04:34 PM Jim, "These are the ones in Belfast and Derry; they are the most intimidating and they are targeted where they can give the greatest amount of offence; unsurprisingly - it is these that cause the most trouble. .... all trouble is a response to the provocation caused by the marches and the practice of the marchers who have been banned from marching in Nationalist areas parading back through those forbidden areas when the march has officially finished." Well Jim, the recent trouble started before the first parade. A gang tried to attack a bonfire party within the Unionist community the night before a parade. The big Derry parade was peaceful. No trouble at all. Jim, you have said that the parades are wrong and should stop, even if they are harmless and traditional celebrations. Are the dissident bombs wrong? Should they stop? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Aug 10 - 05:21 PM Keith Last reply to your inane questions The troubles caused by these triumphalist marches cannot be judged on a yearly basis - they are a continual provocation that dates back certainly thoughout the 20th century and started a long time before you and I were born "Are the dissident bombs wrong?" of course they are wrong, as are the provocations which instigate them and keep them alive, like your provocative marches. I don't take sides, unlike you. Who has ever said that bombs are right? You, on the other hand, have certainly thrown your support behind Unionist provocation, as everybody has been pointing out to you, but you don't listen, also as everybody has been pointing out to you. Anyway - you told us not long ago that the troubles were all over in the Six Counties, the police had them all under control and any problems on the 12th were "skirmishes" - so what's it to be yes or no, still with us or gone? Leave me alone please; you really haven't anything to offer by way of sensible argument or information. Now go away Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 17 Aug 10 - 01:57 AM It is another lie to say I have supported "Unionist provocation". I merely ask, as an outsider, what is so provocative about a parade? It seems to me like a sectarian resentment of the other side enjoying their own cultural heritage. And the people of the North seem to agree with me. No protests about thousands of the parades, including the big Derry parades. The "rioters" in Belfast turned out to be bored school children and a few activists bussed in to create trouble. The Troubles are over Jim, unless you think we have to wait until not one person wants to resort to violence! How is it inane to ask if you think dissident bombs are wrong? Some people obviously think they are not, and you might be one. After all, you refuse to say that Hamas rocketing of civilians is wrong. "Leave me alone please." Don't be such a wimp Jim. No one made you get into this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: John MacKenzie Date: 17 Aug 10 - 04:41 AM WHY IS THIS THREAD STILL WEARING THE TITULAR ADDITION DRUMCREE PARADE, INSERTED BY SOME IGNORANT CLONE? It has nothing to do with Drumcree, it's about sectarian strife in general, and about the annual marches of the Orange order, of which there are many, in many different locations, and in more than one country. I do wish people would get their facts straight! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Leadfingers Date: 17 Aug 10 - 03:42 PM John ! As is so often the case , its 'Never let the facts get in the way of a good argument (OR Fight) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Aug 10 - 03:49 PM Most of the marches are tolerable enough, and are tolerated. Some are intended as provocation, and not unaturally, they succeed in provoking oppoition. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 17 Aug 10 - 05:03 PM McGrath, no one was provoked this year. The people of the North have moved on. Jim says we must look back, but he is wrong and dangerously so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Aug 10 - 05:58 PM "no one was provoked this year." Except for the three days of rioting of course - which was not made up of childern as was stupidly claimed, though some of the rioters were teenagers. The fact that the three days of rioting included some teenagers is proof that you have a potential future generation of dissidents We are at present in the middle of bombs being smuggled over the border, car bombings and shootings in the North - probably kids having a bit of fun though The police have been refused financial assistance to cover the massive bill for riot control, so ortdinatry policing in a very disturbed part of these islands (look at the rise in crime) Mind you, we are told on this thread that there is no problem with the marches, and he was over here and saw a march once - (in a country town), which negates the rioting I grew up with every 12th of July - I have to bow to his superior experience What planet does that fecking moron live on - you know the one I mean - the prat who wishes all the Irish would go back to Ireland? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Aug 10 - 06:56 PM "ordinatry policing in a very disturbed part of these islands (look at the rise in crime)" Should read "ordinatry policing in a very disturbed part of these islands (look at the rise in crime)" is now severely curtailed Sorry for the error, but the arrogance and ignorance of this unbelievable burk who neither offers information of his own (except that which he has cut and pasted), nor listens to the information of people who have seen this shit up close, is beginning to get to me. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Aug 10 - 03:22 AM Jim again attacks me, not what I say. I have expressed the wish that all parts of Ireland should leave the UK, not that Irish people should leave. My own dear daughter in law who presented me with my first grandson this year is Irish. Two years ago a nephew married a girl from Down, (though as a protestant you might not regard her as Irish.) Thousands of parades this year and the only trouble was in Belfast and it started before the march. After a third consecutive night of trouble, Fr Donegan said: "I pulled stones out of the hands of children. "It was a bit like a Euro Disney theme park for rioting. It was ludicrous." Most of the young rioters were simply bored kids looking for some excitement in an inner city area where they complain of having nothing else to do. Children as young as eight years old have been involved in the violence. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern+ireland-10642007 Sinn Féin's Gerry Kelly said dissident republicans, from the Real IRA, were orchestrating the violence. At the height of the rioting women in Ardoyne found children playing with a loaded rifle and handed it into police. Petrol bombs, fireworks, stones, and bottles were thrown at police after they tried to move rioters away from a parade route. Two of three hijacked vans were pushed at police lines. The Ardoyne priest Father Gary Donegan said the trouble was started by outsiders. "Myself and many people were looking at people last night that we'd never seen in the area before in our lives. "It was as if people had been bussed into the area for this very purpose and that this was being very much orchestrated," he said. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jul/14/belfast-riots-real-ira-blame |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Aug 10 - 04:20 AM Keith You have persistantly supported these marches, watering down their purpose and the effect they have on those they are aimed against. You said what you said about the Irish and it's on record. You have never witnessed an Orange march in full flight so you have no right whatever to pass them off as a days outing; they are aggressive parades designed to show the 'superiority' of those who organise them and to intimidate one third of the population of the six counties. I don't give two tosses who started the trouble this year or any year, the root cause of any violence is the marches themselves - that is what they are there for. This year's rioting is amongst the most violent and persistant since the troubles 'ended'. The 'children' who took part might well turn out to be the bomb-throwers of the future - the trouble has not gone away and the riots are a proof of that - whoever is responsible for them and the continued terrorist activities Do I believe your daughter-in-law is Irish - of course I do - it is you and your kind who have tried to make the natives of the six counties of Ireland English - this is what all this is about, you stupid little man. Some time ago you complained of my re-opening a thread that had closed - just as you have done here. I participate in these threads to learn from others and to pass on anything I might have to offer. You do not listren to what others say and you seem to have no original ideas of your own - why are you here? If you have any concern for the future of your grandson, try to have a little thought of the legacy you are passing on to him and the other Irish children in the Six Counties. This is probably the best description of the Orange Order and its activities I have come across, from Leon Uris's 'Ireland - A Terrible Beauty. Jim Carroll PS Apologies that the piece I have included has so many paragraphs and big words THE ORANGE ORDER The Orange Order was molded on a pseudo-Masonic structure replete with secret oaths, handshakes, and passwords with an enormity of prayer and a rash of exotic-sounding ranks such as Royal Scarlets, Purple Marksmen, Black Perceptories, Apron and Blue, Link and Chain. The founding principles, quite unchanged, were allegiance to the Crown, upholding the Protestant Ascendancy, and hatred of Catholics. At first there was a cautious and mixed reaction from the gentry. With the coming of the nineteenth century and the drive for Catholic emancipation, the gentry began to find the Orange Order usable. "Gentlemen's Lodges," largely political in char¬acter, sprang up to tangle with the issues. A yearly march and a patronising pat on the head, to the lesser brothers brought these two unlikely ends of the society together in common cause. The grass-roots and universal membership gave the "Gentlemen's Lodges" an outside muscle. An infusion of preachers in the early 1800s served to give the ordinary lodges a semblance of respectability. The preachers could talk directly to the common man, who essentially had banded together for self-protection. The Orange pot was always kept stewing with stories that the Pope and his convincing Jesuits were planning night and day to take over Ulster. Always militant and always ready, the Orangemen have proved to be easily incited. Beginning with the Rev. Dr. Henry Cooke and on through Drew and "Roaring" Hanna, an assembly line of rabble-rousing preachers have often parlayed sermons into anti-Catholic riots. The Orange Order filtered and infected the bloodstream of Ulster until the order became the power base of the province. It was the establishment, with absolute control over the moral ethic, the police, the political machinery, and the courts. The Grandmaster of a lodge was a power who could ensure the job and well-being of a family. Failure to join or bucking the Orange Order by an individual in a given neighborhood, trade, or village was impossible, and the free thought of men who believed themselves to be free was destroyed. The Unionist Party was born out of an Orange Hall in 1885 in response to the first home rule threat. Unionists have since become the political arm of the order, able to apply the kinds of threats and pressure that resulted in a history of British appeasement to Ulster. It is hard to tell where one ended and the other began, but the Orange Order, the Unionist Party, and the Protestant Church formed an unholy trinity that kept the province in a strangle¬hold. Orangeism finds public expression in a series of annual rituals, medieval in character and ugly in concept. It erupts into life during "the marching season." The tune is set by the Lambeg drum, an ancient Scottish weapon of psychological warfare. It is up to four feet thick and five feet in diameter and tattooed by bamboo canes lashed to the wrists of the drummer by leather straps. The sound of it was designed to throw fear into the heart of the foe. It does. When it is carried on long frenzied marches, the drummer's wrists are often slashed open by the leather and his blood spatters against the drumhead. Many a Catholic child was first introduced to terror by the cannonade of the Lambeg drum. The wee province bursts out with hundreds of thousands of Union Jacks and Ulster flags from every loyal house. There is nothing to compare with it in all the Crown's domains. Festive archways are larded with slogans that tell the Ulster story. REMEMBER 1690 (the Boyne); NOT AN INCH (the border dispute); GOD SAVE THE QUEEN, GOD SAVE ULSTER (loyalty); ULSTER WILL FIGHT AND ULSTER WILL BE RIGHT (anti-home rule); IN GLORIOUS REMEMBRANCE (of some vic¬tory or the other over the Catholic); FOR GOD AND ULSTER; and, of course, NO SURRENDER (the eternal siege). Parades are marched from one end of the province to the other, grim, humorless trampings of righteous wrath. The fin of two grand climaxes comes on the twelfth of July to celebration William's victory at the Boyne. Tens of dozens of Loyal Lodges converge on Belfast. Throughout the night bonfires blaze, the Pope is kicked in effigy, prayers are prayed and the old tune cranked up and sung with swelling pride. The standard of the lyrics gives an idea of just how far the people have been manipulated. Among the things the roe of the Orange Order did not bring to their beloved province were literature, music, and art. They are the ones mainly responsible for the place being a cultural desert. CROPPIES LIE DOWN Poor Croppies, ye know that your sentence was come, When you heard the dread sound of the Protestant drum. In memory of William we hoisted his flag, And soon the bright Orange put down the Green rag. THE PROTESTANT BOYS The Protestant boys are loyal and true, Stout-hearted in battle, and stout-handed too: The Protestant boys are true to the last, And faithful and peaceful when danger has passed. DERRY'S WALLS . . . For blood did flow in crimson streams, On many a winter's night. They knew the Lord was on their side, To help them in the fight. . . . At last, at last with one broadside Kind heaven sent them aid. . . . A ROPE, A ROPE TO HANG THE POPE A rope, a rope Tae hang the Pope! A pennyworth o' cheese Tae choke him! A pint o' lamp oil Tae wrench it down And a big hot give Tae roast him! When I was sick, And very, very sick, And very near a-dying, The only thing that raised me up Was to see The old whore frying. Or consider some of the poetry, this one by no means the worst of the lot. Scarlet Church of all uncleanness, Sink thou to deep abyss, To the orgies of obsceneness Where the hell-bound furies hiss; Where thy father Satan's eye May hail thee, blood-stained Papacy! Harlot! Cease thy midnight rambles, Prowling for the life of saints, Henceforth sit in hellish shambles Where the scent of murder taints Every gale that passeth by, Ogre, ghoul of Papacy! Leading his lodge in solemn remembrance, the Grandmaster, white-gloved, sword in hand, walks reverently behind a Bible borne on velvet cushion, encased in glass and topped with a crown. The banners of Loyal Lodge after Loyal Lodge swear temper¬ance, allegiance, and loyalty: CARSON'S TRUE BLUES, DERRY'S DEFENDERS, STEAMFITTERS TOTAL TEMPERANCE, ACT OF COV¬ENANT, LOYAL LADS OF LARNE. . . . Tribal brothers all banded together in black bowlers, black rolled umbrellas, and sashes are piped on through by a hundred bands taunting close to Catholic neighborhoods or through the middle of them, while Shankill and Sandy Row toughs dance headily alongside the marchers, swept up by the wine of might. By the time they reach Finaghy Field they've slowed to a limp, and they sprawl about to hear the old harangues from the old haranguers. The next day at Scarva a mock Battle of the Boyne is re-enacted, and a month later it happens all over again as they go on pilgrimage to Derry to celebrate the siege. If times are bad and passions high and fears of livelihood consuming, it might all be topped off with a bit of rioting against the Catholics. To continue to intimidate and debase one third of their nation, it is entirely necessary to live in the past. They will relive Boyne and Derry until they make their earthly departure, and then their sons will be brought to wear the sash their fathers wore. As the pilot preparing to land at Belfast Airport said over the loudspeaker, "We are about to land in Ulster. Set your watches back three hundred years." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Aug 10 - 05:28 AM My daughter in law is Irish Catholic, my nephew's wife is Irish Protestant. Some on both sides would not regard the latter as Irish. Referring to that does not make me a stupid little man, though I am not very tall. What I said about the Irish is indeed on record. I have said I love Ireland and all things Irish. I have said I have yet to meet an Irish person I have not liked. But I have also said I would like all parts out of UK. I thought that you wanted that too Jim. You say again that I support the parades. Not true. They are of no consequence to me. I just asked what you were all raging about. Where was the harm? All you can say is they are "provocative". I only revived the thread when events had proved that they were not. The Belfast riots were not provoked by a parade, they preceded it. According to Sinn Fein, PSNI and the local priest, they were instigated by RIRA as part of their campaign of violence, which you say you do not support. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Aug 10 - 05:58 AM You said you would be glad to see the back of them (us) or some such words - you seemed to have the strange idea that I am Irish "The Belfast riots were not provoked by a parade, they preceded it." The Belfast riots were a response to the ongoing provocation that takes place this time every year. I described what these provocations were, you choose not to comment on them as they discredit the side you have chosen to support. Attempting to pass them off as harmless days out (would you like me to select wheer you have made such suggestions?), IS SUPPORTING THEM, as is attempting to place the blame on those who react to such abuse. "Referring to that does not make me a stupid little man," Your whole attention seeking ignorant and bigoted attitude is what makes you a stupid little man. Your apparent ignorance of the root cause of the Irish question just confirms it. Now will you piss off? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Aug 10 - 06:51 AM Jim, "The Belfast riots were a response to the ongoing provocation that takes place this time every year" Wrong Jim. From my BBC link above,"The phrase 'recreational rioting' was made in Belfast, to describe the traditional outbreak of street disturbances once the summer school holidays begin." Bored school children, and dissidents fomenting violence for their own purposes. Nothing to do with a parade. Thousands of parades and that was the only trouble. Even the huge Apprentice Boys march in Derry passed off peacefully. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Aug 10 - 07:17 AM From your Irish Times Jim. Some of the rioters were as young as eight. Others travelled all the way from Dublin, to take part in the organised chaos of Belfast's Twelfth of July. Fr Gary Donegan, a local priest, noted how many of the adults at Ardoyne on the Twelfth were not from the area. That was obvious from the Dublin, southern and other non-Belfast accents that were heard. One Dubliner was brazen about it. "We are here to show solidarity with the residents," he said. Local community leaders said it was solidarity Ardoyne could have done without. The trouble continued during the week. On Tuesday night Fr Donegan stopped a youngster with stones in his hands to throw "at the Prods". The priest took his stones; the boy was nine and had walked two and a half kilometres from Oldpark to join in the trouble. Fr Donegan was not alone in wondering about the lack of parental control. Young rioters were drawn by texts and social-networking sites. Young teenage girls dressed up to watch their boyfriends hurl petrol bombs and stones: "Like models on a Milan catwalk," said Fr Donegan. Most locals abhorred the violence and resented the visitors. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2010/0717/1224274875920.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Aug 10 - 08:18 AM I know what The Irish Times said and have said it doesn't matter who started it - unlike you I haven't taken sides I have also said that this is only a small part of the cycle of violence that is as old as the Six County State itself and is a direct result of political situation pertaining there Trying to dissacociate this violence from its political cases in order to blame 'the other side' and in particular, children, is as despicable as any of your arguments - every bit as spineless as blaming a handful of soldiers rather than the officers who were, or should have been responsible for the act of murder of 14 demonstrators on Bloody Sunday The overall cause of both is a result of the political situation still existing in the state and directly caused by the annual provocation that takes place there You have seen a description of that provocation AND YOU STILL REMAIN SILENT - which is no different than supporting, it as you always have. THE END Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Aug 10 - 08:39 AM And perhaps you'd like to see the reports linking the rioting to the marching season - and not trying to pass it of as schoolboy high spirits Jim Carroll BELFAST RIOTS CONTINUE FOR THIRD NIGHT Northern Ireland politicians unite to condemn 'thuggery and vandalism' after shots were fired at police Police in Belfast have come under gunfire for a third successive night, with Northern Ireland's political leaders condemning those behind the violence. In Ardoyne, the scene of Monday night's major disturbances, a lone attacker armed with a handgun fired four to six shots as police clashed with masked men. No one was injured by the shots, which witnesses said appeared to have been aimed at a police surveillance camera recording the rioters. Police officers in the nationalist area of north Belfast responded with water cannon as they came under fire from petrol bombs and at least one homemade grenade. Northern Ireland's first minister, Peter Robinson, and the deputy first minister, Martin McGuinness, denounced the "thuggery and vandalism" of the rioters and defended their political efforts to ease tensions over controversial parades. Violence surrounding 12 July Orange Order marches left 82 officers injured. The Northern Ireland police assistant chief constable, Alistair Finlay, had earlier criticised politicians for failing to be "proactive" in addressing the problems posed by the marching season. "We didn't see joined-up, strategic leadership," he said. Police have blamed dissident republicans opposed to the peace process for the violence that reached a height in Ardoyne on Monday night, where police came under sustained attack. In the most serious incident of the night a female police officer had a concrete block thrown at her head. She remains in hospital where she is said to be stable. Robinson, the Democratic Unionist party leader, and McGuinness of Sinn Féin issued a joint statement condemning the violence and highlighted their efforts to secure a lasting solution over the marches. "I am disgusted at the outright thuggery and vandalism that has taken place over the course of the last 48 hours," said Robinson. "There is no excuse and no place for violence in civilised society. Both the deputy first minister and I have been, and will continue, to work for a resolution of the difficulties around parading." McGuinness said they were working on legislation that would provide a framework for contentious parades. Robinson added: "I am disappointed to hear some of the comments from ACC Finlay and look forward to meeting with the chief constable shortly to discuss the events of the last 48 hours and ACC Finlay's unhelpful and unacceptable remarks. "We must keep our entire focus on defeating those who would seek through violence and destruction to drag us back." Yesterday police worked successfully with community representatives in the nationalist Short Strand, Markets and lower Ormeau areas to tackle attempts by youths to spark violence. The vast majority of parades pass off peacefully on 12 July, the height of the loyal orders' marching season. But in a relatively small number of areas parades continue to cause tensions between rival communities. Robinson and McGuinness were central to negotiations at Hillsborough Castle earlier this year that brokered deals on the devolution of policing powers and on creating new legislation on parades. Last week the Orange Order rejected the draft proposals that would replace the government-appointed Parades Commission with a new system to broker local solutions to parade standoffs. Margaret Ritchie, the leader of the nationalist Social Democratic and Labour party, said rioters had caused "a massive trail of destruction", but she blamed parade proposals by the DUP and Sinn Féin for adding to instability. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Aug 10 - 08:57 AM Thanks Jim. An extract. "Police have blamed dissident republicans opposed to the peace process for the violence that reached a height in Ardoyne on Monday night, where police came under sustained attack" Not local people opposed to a parade, but dissident Republicans opposed to the peace process. They care about as much about the parades as I do. The local people did not have an issue with the parade. And of all the thousands of parades, that was the only trouble. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Aug 10 - 09:32 AM As I said, you obviously have no experience of how these obscenities, (which you do not care about, still have not commented on and have defended up to now, and continue to do so with your silence) affect the local population. Where do you think the dissidents came from - the moon? They come from within the local communities and, as you have pointed out, include the young people of that population - the marches create dissidence = dissidents. DO YOU STILL BELIEVE THE ABUSE RISING FROM THE MARCHES, AS QUOTED ABOVE, IS HARMLESS FUN, AND DO YOU STILL BELIEVE THAT THESE MARCHES SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO CONTINUE AS THEY HAVE DONE IN THE PAST??? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Aug 10 - 09:41 AM I believe that the dissidents represent a tiny proportion of the population and have little support. Why should we pander to their demands? "DO YOU STILL BELIEVE THE ABUSE RISING FROM THE MARCHES, AS QUOTED ABOVE, IS HARMLESS FUN," There is certainly harmless fun being had. "AND DO YOU STILL BELIEVE THAT THESE MARCHES SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO CONTINUE AS THEY HAVE DONE IN THE PAST???" Yes. If the people affected have no issues, why not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Aug 10 - 09:50 AM I am not, as you will inevitably claim, supporting the parades. I am just against banning anything that is enjoyed and is harmless. I am quite liberal in that respect. No convincing argument has emerged for them being harmful, and no one has objected to any of them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Aug 10 - 10:40 AM Thank you for the clarification Despite your denials you have made it abundantly clear that you fully support the abuse hurled against the nationalists on Northern Ireland on the 'Glorious 12th' which makes you no different than the sectarian thugs who hurl it, and is fully in line with your attitude to the massacre of unarmed demonstrators on boody Sunday - I never doubted it for a moment I suggest you read Uris's description again just to refresh your tiny mind what you are supporting. Liberal my arseum Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Aug 10 - 11:09 AM Oh Jim. "Despite your denials you have made it abundantly clear that you fully support the abuse hurled against the nationalists on Northern Ireland on the 'Glorious 12th' " Abuse and much worse was hurled in the opposite direction too. No comment from Jim The dissidents behind the riots just injured and terrified three little children with a bomb. No comment from Jim. You will not admit it, even to yourself, but look into your soul Jim. Your problem with the parades is who they are, not what they do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Aug 10 - 03:24 AM 22nd June 'Bloody Sunday' thread; Jim Carroll "Have a good marching season" Keith "Have a good marching season? You fool! I am nothing to do with any of that crap." "Like all my countrymen, I would love to be rid of the lot of you." Out of the mouths of babes...... Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Aug 10 - 04:00 AM You lie. You change the clear meaning of my post by omitting key passages. You said,"You are still arguing for the status quo," Next post I said "Arguing for the staus quo? Wrong again. Like all my countrymen, I would love to be rid of the lot of you. Just stop voting for NI to be British and we will all be happy." You knew I was calling for a fully independent Ireland. You try to gain points by deception. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Aug 10 - 04:16 AM Use this link to the exchange, and see which of us tells the truth. http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=130131#2932857 thread.cfm?threadid=130131#2932857 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Aug 10 - 04:51 AM You said what you said about the parades (which you have defended at length here) being crap, and you said what you said about being rid of the Irish, which is all that concerns us here. Make up thy mind laddie - you can't have it both ways game,set and match, I think Have a nice day y'all Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Aug 10 - 06:05 AM You judge decent people by your own prejudiced standards. I do think that the parades are crap, but I am liberal enough to accept the cultural traditions of others. I made only positive remarks about the Irish. I said what I said, but you carefully edited it to make me sound as bigoted as you are. We were discussing the status of Northern Ireland as part of UK. You said I wanted to keep the status quo. I replied that the people of Britain did not want any part of Ireland in UK. Same as you. I would rather lose an argument than resort to lies and deceptions like you do. You are beneath contempt. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Aug 10 - 06:46 AM "I made only positive remarks about the Irish Yup - you posetively said you wanted toi be rid of us. "Like all my countrymen, I would love to be rid of the lot of you." Edited - where? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Aug 10 - 07:05 AM "cultural traditions" It would seem that one man's cultural traditions....... A ROPE, A ROPE TO HANG THE POPE A rope, a rope Tae hang the Pope! A pennyworth o' cheese Tae choke him! A pint o' lamp oil Tae wrench it down And a big hot give Tae roast him! is another man's dignity and right to peace and safety COMMISSION GIVES PARADE GO-AHEAD DAN KEENAN THE PARADES Commission has approved a late application for a revised route at a controversial loy¬alist band parade in Co Antrim, The DUP had warned earlier o this week that widespread trouble would be provoked following an it earlier decision to ban the return leg of a band parade through Rasharkin tomorrow night. Opposition from nationalist pro¬testers has been voiced for the past two years to the parade which led to the original Parades Com¬mission determination to curtail the original march. But following the submission of a revised return route for the Bally-maconnelly Sons of Conquerors and up to 40 other bands yes¬terday, the Parades Commission granted permission. DUP Assembly member Mervyn Storey said the developments were common sense. "This is a mature decision which should be praised," he said. "Whilst the unrepresentative republican residents group has a goal to stop all things Protestant in the village, the band has went (sic) the extra mile to ensure a peaceful and safe evening for all in attend¬ance." In a statement the Ballymacon-nelly Sons of Conquerors insisted they did not wish to see any trouble. "We will conduct our parade the same way we always have, with dignity and discipline," it stated. In Belfast SDLP North Belfast Assembly member Alban Magin-ness led a party delegation to the Parades Commission offices yes¬terday in connection with another loyalist band parade at Ardoyne, the scene of three nights of rioting after July 12th. Objecting to the Royal Black Preceptory parade in Ardoyne on August 28th, he said: "The SDLP expressed to the Parades Commis¬sion our grave concerns about the potential for serious disturbance in Ardoyne if the parade is allowed to go ahead. We made clear to the Parades Commission we are totally opposed to any band accom¬panying the parade as this will only lead to increased tensions in the area." He called for the commission "to show consistency in their deci¬sion-making as this parade is essentially the same as the parade of August 14th which the^ commission placed restrictions on". IRISH TIMES Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Aug 10 - 07:30 AM "Edited-where?" My post "Arguing for the staus quo? Wrong again. Like all my countrymen, I would love to be rid of the lot of you. Just stop voting for NI to be British and we will all be happy." You edited out the lines that showed we were discussing the status quo of NI, and that the problem was the voting habits of NI. None of it relates to the Irish diaspora, as you hoped to make people believe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Aug 10 - 08:00 AM Don't change a thing whatever way you try to wiggle out of it - send em back, plain and simple And you said that the right to march which (as you can see from the artical, unsettles and threatens ordinary people) was crap - so why argue in favour of it in the first place. Anyway - I've had my 'fun' this morning, so I'll let you back to what you do when you're not writing garbage Byeee Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Aug 10 - 10:05 AM " send em back, plain and simple" To say that I have ever said or implied any such thing is a filthy lie and a wicked insult to the much loved Irish members of my extended family. "And you said that the right to march which (as you can see from the artical, unsettles and threatens ordinary people) was crap" Another lie. You are a despicable liar. Does anyone here defend his lies? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Aug 10 - 02:08 PM "Does anyone here defend his lies? " Or think he is lying Stalemate! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Aug 10 - 03:34 PM We were discussing the parades. If they should be allowed. You could not argue your case, so you made personal attacks on me instead. You had nothing on me, so you had to lie, as you did before. In any case, the things you made up about me did not affect the argument. Supposing I really had previously thought they should be banned, I don't now. Supposing I really did think Irish people should go home, how does that relate to the parades? You can not argue a case so you make up lies about your opponent. And you are blatant about it. And you do not mind being labelled "liar." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Aug 10 - 05:08 PM "Like all my countrymen, I would love to be rid of the lot of you." Explain and stop whining "I am nothing to do with any of that crap."" Explain withing the context of your previous arguments on this thread and stop whining Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Aug 10 - 07:01 PM I have explained, but I am happy to rub your nose in your filth again. I am nothing to do with any of that crap. I live in Hertford, England. The parades mean nothing to me. You and others were railing against them in this thread. I asked why. You failed to convince me they should be banned. They are not my thing, but why ban them? That has been my consistent position throughout this thread. The other thing. We were discussing the status of NI, not people in England! I could have chosen my words better, but the context made my meaning crystal clear. No need to take my word for it. This links to your post, followed by my reply. thread.cfm?threadid=130131#2932799 It has nothing to do with this thread. You just made a personal attack without foundation because you were losing the argument. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Aug 10 - 07:06 PM If you really believed I made an anti Irish statement, why wait untill now to mention it Jim? Why not in that thread all those weeks ago? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Aug 10 - 03:04 AM I am going off line for a few days. Jim tried to kill the debate with lying personal attacks on me. I will return to it. I suggested that the rage expressed here was just intolerance of a different culture. It was said the parades are "provocative". No trouble was provoked by any of the thousands of parades. The only trouble started before any parade and Jim supplied evidence that it was not locals opposed to a march, but outsiders opposed to the peace process. It was said that they wear funny hats. Fair comment, but that is clearly a cultural thing. Jim said that "abuse" is "hurled." I do not believe that is a one way thing. In Ardoyne it was one way, against the protestants. Jim says sometimes some people sing rude songs about the pope. I agree that is not acceptable, and the organisers should enforce more discipline if true. Is it the actual marchers who sing? You only see them walking silently on the videos. How are they heard over those very loud bands? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Aug 10 - 03:18 AM "If you really believed I made an anti Irish statement, why wait untill now to mention it Jim?" I did Keith - weeks ago. Thanks to your persistant habit of not paying attention to what others write, you probably missed it - though I believe you did respond to it at the time, which means you don't even pay attention to what YOU write either, even though you post at least two at a time, three on this occasion. "I will return to it." Can't say I'm looking forward to your return, but I await an explanation of your statement with some interest Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 20 Aug 10 - 03:38 AM But no comment on the actual debate then Jim? Just more stuff about me. Here is that link to the post in question. Scroll down and look for any claim from you that I made an anti Irish statement. It would actually be significant on that thread. thread.cfm?threadid=130131#2932799 Sorry, must go. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 23 Aug 10 - 05:11 PM refresh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: GUEST,Keith A no cookie reset Date: 14 Jul 11 - 03:55 AM Even less trouble this year than last, thank goodness. Fewer rioters and many of them early teens or even younger. Here is how The Irish Times saw the most contentious parade in Belfast. IT WAS party time yesterday for the unionist community in Belfast as thousands thronged the city centre streets to watch the annual Orange Order parade. On what was very much a family day out for most of the crowd, people lined the main route from early morning in rows three and four deep, waving Union Jack and Ulster flags. Countless stalls selling all sorts of memorabilia from hats and scarves to inflatable Disney character balloons added to the carnival atmosphere. Two particularly popular items appeared to be children's batons and miniature marching drums, leading to more than one spectator being struck unawares by a flying baton, thrown from the hand of an overexcited youngster practising for his big moment in the parade. In contrast to the bonfire night on Monday, during which Tricolours were burned in many parts of the city, the atmosphere yesterday morning was much more positive, one mostly of celebration of the Ulster unionist culture. "It's the best day of our lives, something that we look forward to all year," said Angela Barr, who had secured a good roadside spot with her partner and two young sons. Ms Barr and her family arrived an hour early as had thousands more who were unfolding deck chairs and unpacking lunches long before the march was due to pass. It seemed odd to see so many, so early after bonfire night, traditionally a big social event in Northern Ireland that stretches into the early morning. Motivation to leave home in good time was apparently easy to find, however, as the importance of getting the right spot along the parade route was quickly explained. "We have been 50 years coming to the same spot," said a member of the Hanvey family from Newtownabbey, six miles outside of Belfast. They described the Twelfth as their St Patrick's Day, a community day out that gives them a chance to celebrate their culture and history. The parade itself maintained that family feel with men, women and children of all ages marching the seven-mile route while waving to neighbours in the crowd. Aside from the loyal Orange lodges that always form the iconic basis of the march, the parade featured countless marching bands from Northern Ireland, Scotland and Canada. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0713/1224300655385.html?via=rel |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Jul 11 - 05:05 AM "Even less trouble this year than last, thank goodness." And this is how the Irish Times saw it this morning: "Rioters will be brought to justice, says PSNI Police on high alert after 26 held during disturbances POLICE HAVE warned that people involved in rioting at Ardoyne in north Belfast on the Twelfth night and in other parts of Northern Ireland over recent days will be tracked down and brought before the courts. The Police Service of Northern Ireland remained on high alert last night to deal with any further outbreaks of nationalist violence after what a senior officer described as the "mindless" thuggery at Ardoyne on Tuesday night. Twenty-six people were arrested during rioting in Ardoyne, in south Belfast, in Derry and in Castlederg, Co Tyrone, on Tuesday night. Eleven people were arrested in Derry, nine in Ardoyne - including a 12-year-old boy - five in the markets area of south Bel-fast and one in Castlederg. Sixteen police officers were injured and 55 plastic bullets fired by police during the disturbances. PSNI Assistant Chief Constable Alastair Finlay said most parts of Northern Ireland were peaceful over the Twelfth. "Yet for these few streets we get headlines of violence, of people injured, of communities and relationships being broken and infrastructure and property damaged," he said. About 200 rioters were involved in the trouble at Ardoyne. F inlay described them as "mindless thugs" and said there was evidence this disorder was orchestrated. Mr Finlay said the police officer whose helmet was set on fire by a petrol bomb was back on duty later, demonstrating his bravery and the quality of the police riot gear. An Orange Order feeder parade passed the Ardoyne shops on Tuesday night and several rioters who were involved in the disturbances there last year were jailed. Police made several arrests after the disorder using film and forensic evidence. Mr Finlay made clear a similar operation would now ensue. "There will be a follow-up operation like last year and people will be brought before the courts," he said at a police briefing yesterday morning. While local nationalists continue to oppose the Orange Order parading past the Ardoyne shops on the Crumlin Road, the DUP MP for North Belfast Nigel Dodds said they must realise that the road was a "shared space and not just a nationalist road". Local Sinn Fein Assembly member Gerry Kelly said the chief reason tensions were raised in the area each summer was entirely down to the continuing failure of the Orange Order to sit down and enter dialogue with its neighbours. "There was no actual reason for the riot," local SDLP MLA Alban Maginness said, "beyond the fact that a small number of people wanted a riot, planned a riot and got a riot." None of this covers the 4 days of rioting by adult masked and armed petrol bomb throwing UVF supporters three days prior to the marches (1 person wounded by gunfire). These displays of sectarian aggression continue too be provocative flashpoints designed to maintain a split in the communities, and while they are allowed to take place in the aggressive way they do they will continue to cause trouble. Party time my arse!! Jim Carroll |
