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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Will Fly Date: 14 Jul 10 - 05:39 AM Will, you and the allied descendents do not live in Hiroshima. How acceptable would it be for Japanese Americans to demand the banning of Vets. Day parades in USA? You're missing the point. Marching to celebrate one's culture and heritage - for a whole nation or a whole community - is perfectly acceptable. Marching through a particular section of one's own community to demonstrate/reinforce one's supposed superiority over that community, or to intimidate that section of the community, is merely provocative, demeaning and divisive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: gnu Date: 14 Jul 10 - 06:08 AM Backwoodsman... right back at ya. >;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 Jul 10 - 06:28 AM Another bit of hate I have to contend with. My faithful poodle who follows me round the threads says"The only post he ever wrote that made any sense was the one in which he expressed admiration for the skill and bravery of the Provisional Volunteers that look out a few acres in the centre of Manchester in the 90's. It was on the thread "Stepdaughters and teenagers" he was posting on this thread about a young one he was knocking off at the time who was inManchester on the day. " This is what he is referring to. Detail.CFM?messages__Message_ID=1798488 My step daughter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Jul 10 - 06:37 AM "Another bit of hate I have to contend with." PS Nor has Ireland produced a huge repertoire of racist-or otherwise Xenophobic jokes aimed at the Irish, Welsh, Scots, or anybody who Isn't White, Anglo-Saxon or wasn't born in Chiipping Sodbury Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 Jul 10 - 07:02 AM OK, I don't live there and will never understand. To an outsider, the problem seems to be intolerance. Most of the thousands of marches upset no one, but the organisers should consider changing routes that do. A parade is pretty harmless. Some people could be a little more tolerant of them. Tourists would love them. But what do I know? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Jul 10 - 07:59 AM "To an outsider, the problem seems to be intolerance." The problem is that they are sectarian based, which breeds intolerance. Their very nature is belligerant - they are loud, militaristic and oppresive. As somebody pointed out earlier - you really don't see a lot of smiles. People throng to St Patrick Day parades because they are a celebration, and as such, they are welcoming; you feel they are safe enough to take children on them. In my experience the Lodge marches are threatening to any outsider. That is the feeling I have always come away from them with, and I saw a great deal of them in my youth in Liverpool. I suggest you try one sometime - a new experience perhaps - don't they have them in your part of the world (didn't you say Glasgow - the first place I ever saw men in cages - at a Celtic-Rangers match to keep the Catholics and Protestants apart)? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Backwoodsman Date: 14 Jul 10 - 08:22 AM LOL gnu! :-) :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 Jul 10 - 08:24 AM Hertford is far from Glasgow. The parade I saw was in Co. Down. They are sectarian based in that it is a unionist tradition. Must that breed intolerance? Why? "Their very nature is belligerant" Justify that. It is people walking to a band. That is just your subjective impression. "they are loud, militaristic and oppresive." Any band in the street is similarly loud. That is not an argument. Militaristic? As I observed earlier, not really. Oppressive? A purely subjective impression. "In my experience the Lodge marches are threatening to any outsider. That is the feeling I have always come away from them with " Subjective impression. You do not like the people who march, so you see them and have all these negative feelings. It is just people walking with a band. Show some tolerance. But I do not live there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: cobra Date: 14 Jul 10 - 09:27 AM Keith A, a couple of questions if you don't mind. One, you ay you have observed Orange parades in Co. Down, in what capacity? Two, what/ who have been the major influences on your very clearly articulated position on anything and everything related to the six counties? I ask this as it srikes me you bring a very singular vision to the party any time you engage in an exchange on this board - I hesitate to call it a dialogue as that does not seem to fit the general tenor and ,imo, intent of your postings. Of course the reality, as anyone with a modicum of knowledge or experience of the place - as opposed to being a day tripper - will tell you, is that there are a significant number of people who eschew all and any of the extremist positions which have been witnessed down the years. Then there are those who, like yourself, prefer the position of armchair warrior and would have us believe you have a deep and well-developed insight into what is happening in that particular society. Sadly, I do not believe that can truly be the case simply from watching TV news and parroting the sectarian rubbish put out by one side. Of course, if you HAVE spent any extended time in the six counties, your partisanship may just be understandable. There are two sides to this issue and you would do well to make time trying to understand how people have ended up with such opposing views and perhaps, just perhaps, trying to make a constructive contribution. FWIW, I have lived in England for many years now, having come from an area of Belfast which experienced some of the aorst atrocities of the whole saga, from Loyalist murder gangs, to Paras on the rampage killing illegally, to IRA bombings and assassinations. I am pleased that distance has given me an opportunity to be a bit more reflective and I can now honestly say that I count among my closest friends ex-Paras and soldiers who have served time in Northern Ireland, people from the Falls and from East Belfast who have marched in their respective sectarian beanfests and a wide range of people from all partsof Ireland. What I can say about these people is that we all, to a person, have had to make significant movement to reach an understanding and a genuine appreciation of the experiences which we have had as individuals. I guess the old adage that you shall know people by the friends they keep (and I read that as being that we share a breadth of understanding - learned, in truth - and a readiness to work at understanding differences). Sadly, if I apply the same yardstick to you I fear that you have a somewhat one-dimensional perspective which suggests you have a rather limited circle of acquaintances. Please do not take that as a personal slight, that is not my intention . If anything, I would like to see you broaden your experience and input. When I first saw your handle, I wrongly read your place-de-guerre as "Hereford". I was wrong. But it isquite telling don't you think?. As many posters have said, marching in Northern Ireland is generally seen as triumphalist, or a knee-jerk reaction to triumphalism - 12th July and Easter Sunday alike. If you knew anything, really knew anything, about what makes the people of the six counties tick you might just be a bit more circumspect about sharing your armchair wisdom and insight so readily and actually make time to geta grasp of why people have ended up as polarised as the have. Marches are not, and never have been, about a Sunday afternoon stroll to enjoy the scenery. That si true whether you are talking about Orange parades, AOH marches, EDL marches through Luton and Bradford, Remembrance Day parades, Muslim aspirations to march through Wootton Bassett or whatever else you can call up. Morris dancing in Hertford I will make an exception for. That is generally about harmless people using a bit of exercise to get pleasantly bevvied. And good luck to them. Use that pension wisely, man. Get out of your armchair and go talk to people. It can only do you good. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Jul 10 - 09:28 AM "Justify that." They are pretty much in the spirit of the Holy Cross 'this is our territory' incident. "I have only ever seen one small Orange parade" Hardly the grounds for challenging those of us who grew up with them on our doorstep. Go to one and see one of the biggies for yourself. Or try the 'Glorious 12th of August' Apprentice Boys Parade' and report back. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 Jul 10 - 09:50 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cobra, you have not described me. "your very clearly articulated position on anything and everything related to the six counties?" Not anything and everything. I am anti paramiltaries. That is all I have ever argued about before this thread. I was in Co. Down for a wedding and made a holiday of it. Hence the B&B reference. I would like to see more parades Jim. I love all things Irish. I do not claim to understand you though. I said I was speaking as an outsider. As an outsider, it does look as though a little tolerance would solve most of your problems. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: GUEST,big ballad singer Date: 14 Jul 10 - 11:42 AM Listen... I'm all for non-violence, seriously so, but how can there honestly be any dispute about who is in the right in Ireland? Are there Americans commenting here? We, descendents from the first "Americans", that is, only exist as a republic after having driven out those who were at one time the rightful rulers of the people in question. How much more right do the Republicans have, who are simply still carrying on their efforts against those who were a foreign invader from the first? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm honestly asking to understand. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Will Fly Date: 14 Jul 10 - 11:56 AM I understand what you're saying, GUEST,bbs, but it's now become a little more complicated than that in Ireland. The period of invasion, if that's what you want to term it, is now several hundred years. The population of Northern Ireland consists of a majority of who wish to remain part of the UK, and Northern Ireland is itself a minority within the greater island of Ireland as a whole. There are around 1,700,000 people in Northern Ireland, of whom around 46% are declared Protestants, 40% declared Catholics and 14% declared as neither. So that's over 3/4 of a million people who wish to remain in Northern Ireland but as part of the UK. Whether you consider history just or unjust, the incredibly complex political, religious and social situation there is not just a question of "driving out the invader". That's simplistic beyond any measure of thinking. By the way, perhaps the native American people's should have driven out the English, French and Spanish invaders in the 17th century and later on. Unless you yourself are descended from native American people, you're not a "first American" either. In other words, where do we stop with all of that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Sandy Mc Lean Date: 14 Jul 10 - 01:32 PM Will, your argument would hold more water if it addressed the more recent gerrymandering that separated Erin into north and south. If the wish of all of the Irish people was democratically followed the six counties of Ulster would have been part of the Irish Republic. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that there was a deliberate British policy encouraging emigration into the six northern counties tipping the balance to Protestantism. I am not a Catholic but in the case of Ireland I believe that the total populace of the island should have decided their fate! That being said I would hate to see honest efforts on both sides in recent times lost because of some marching or rioting fools! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: akenaton Date: 14 Jul 10 - 01:44 PM Both Catholicism and Presbyterianism are comparitively recent imports, the old Celtic religions predated them by many millennia. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Will Fly Date: 14 Jul 10 - 01:59 PM Sandy - you're quite right about the emigration to Ireland - from Scotland, mainly, I believe. But once again, we're talking as early as the 17th century here, are we not? This was when the plantation of Ireland was the most prolific - around 100,000 people, I believe. And, yes, if there had been a completely democratic vote before partition, Ireland would now be one country with one government - possibly a troubled one, but that's pure speculation. I wonder what would happen if the UK Government actually decided to relinquish dominion of Northern Ireland and hand it completely to the Irish Republic. Conciliation? Civil War? (My point was a response to the concept of "driving out the invader", by the way). All I can say is that, judging by the bigots in the Orange Order and the still active members of small but fanatical groups of the IRA, it wouldn't exactly be a piece of cake, would it? Or am I just being cynical? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 Jul 10 - 02:00 PM Sandy, since the establishment of NI and the Republic, migration has only been into Britain and there was no "deliberate British policy encouraging emigration" to or from NI. We have just had a long discussion about the democratically expressed wishes of the people on the Bloody Sunday thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Big Ballad Singer Date: 14 Jul 10 - 03:06 PM Will and others, just for the record, I am a member here. Will, the comments regarding the native peoples of this land were slightly misguided. The natives of this continent are not "first Americans". The Englishmen and women that came to settle here and eventually fought to overthrow the Crown were and are the "first Americans". As far as the native tribes of this land driving anyone out, there was no real animosity nor effort towards genocide until much later in our country's history. The whites and natives lived side by side, most times either ignoring one another or, occasionally, working together. Not until the dominionist attitudes of later governments and the privileged rich did we see wholesale disregard for the rights of the native peoples. Ireland is completely different in that regard, and, for the record, I do not care what political deliberations have produced or failed to produce as far as anyone's preference for separation or any other geo-political issue. Ireland was a free and independent nation, as others have said, LONG before there were Protestants, Catholics or Christians of any stripe at all on her shores. The Crown has no right to possession of those lands, government of those people nor any right to ask any one of us to turn a blind eye to their abuses, human-rights crimes and simple and blatant disregard for the dignity and right to freedom of the people she has treated so cruelly. Let that percentage of people who want to be loyal to the UK be loyal to them from homes either in England, where they are free to go, or from homes in a FREE and INDEPENDENT Ireland, where their personal political preferences and choices would still be their divine and nationally-ordained right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Will Fly Date: 14 Jul 10 - 03:22 PM No offence intended by using "GUEST", BBS - just responding politely to your post by the name used in that post. The historical actions of the people of England against Ireland, the people of Ireland against England, and by the people of Ireland against each other are a matter of record, and most of them are entirely regrettable. This thread is about the mindset of the Orangemen marching, often through Catholic areas, in Northern Ireland, and what such a mindset implies. Viewed in that light, I would say - with respect - that the last sentence in your last post is simplistic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Will Fly Date: 14 Jul 10 - 03:25 PM I should add, just to clarify my own personal viewpoint, that I heartily wish that Ireland could be a united, independent, peaceful country. Lord knows how that will ever be achieved, given the history. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Jul 10 - 03:46 PM "…… if there had been a completely democratic vote before partition, Ireland would now be one country with one government" This is true. A form of Proportianal Representation had been established in the six counties to ensure the Catholic minority a role in the running of the new State, but was dropped in late 1920s, leaving them with virtually no say. There was never any pretence of giving the Nationalists a say in the running of the country. The border was set originally to include Ulster's nine counties, but when it was realised that this would put the Catholics in the majority, Donegal, Cavan and Monoghan were dropped and included in the Irish Free State, making the describing of the six counties 'Ulster' a bit of a nonsense really. Had independent Ireland included all 32 counties, it may well, as Will says, have been a 'troubled' state, but the partitioning of the six counties and the enforced signing of the treaty 'accepting' partition (under threat of invasion by Britain) led to a Civil War in the 28 states of the new Irish Free State, so it was six of one – half a dozen of the other really. "……there was no "deliberate British policy encouraging emigration" There was no official policy, but discrimination in employment; anti-Catholic riots, poor housing and no political representation forced many Catholics to emigrate (members of my own family among them). Throughout all of this the Orange marches have played a major part in proclaiming the superiority of the Unionist majority and in intimidating the Catholic minority into 'their place'; this remains a major function. The Loyalist dominance of the State remained virtually unchallenged right up to the late 1960s, when Civil Rights demonstrations took place; these were baton charged by the police, then directed by them through stone-throwing Loyalist mobs, leading to over twenty years of warfare, in Ireland and in mainland Britain, which included the massacre of unarmed demonstrators on Bloody Sunday. Reluctant talks on power sharing have been bombed to the conference table and still have a lot of sectarian hurdles to tackle, but, given Irish history, there will always be 'patriots' to fight for a United Ireland, so, even if an agreement is reached, the match will only have been postponed and the ball passed on to another generation. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Jul 10 - 03:49 PM Sorry - tat should be 26 conties of the new Irish Free State - maths was never my strong point Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Jul 10 - 03:50 PM Neither was typing from my last posting; ******* sticky keyboard Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 Jul 10 - 05:27 PM Jim, that is the third time in less than a week that you have posted that enormous block of text to let the world know jim's version of Irish history! It makes it impossible to debate with you, because there are just so many things that have to be challenged. Perhaps that is why you do it! I will start tonight with this bit. "There was no official policy, but discrimination in employment; anti-Catholic riots, poor housing and no political representation forced many Catholics to emigrate (members of my own family among them)." Actually the Nationalist population has grown and is growing, and the Unionist population has shrunk and is shrinking. It will take many days and many posts to answer everything by which time you will probably post up screeds more tosh! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 Jul 10 - 05:37 PM The number of people claiming to be Roman Catholic in the Northern Ireland census has steadily increased, though has slowed somewhat in recent decades. By contrast, the number of people claiming to be Presbyterian and Church of Ireland in the census has decreased. Statisticians predict both communities will achieve close to parity in size, with Protestants dominant primarily to the east and north of Northern Ireland and Catholics dominant to the west and south. Some foresee an eventual Catholic majority (albeit slight) However as of 2005[update] most statisticians predict that Protestants will continue to slightly outnumber Catholics in Northern Ireland as a whole for some time to come. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_and_politics_of_Northern_Ireland |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: GUEST,lox Date: 14 Jul 10 - 05:48 PM As it happens, I am of the belief that VE day parades and their like should not be celebrated the way they are. Remembering the war dead should be a shared experience. The Idea that we should march up and down for ever reminding the world that we beat the Germans and the Japs is outdated and misses the point. The Orange marches are insulting and hurtful to Northern Irish Catholics as they are inextricably linked to the repression and subjugation of Catholics by Protestants in the North and they are inextricably linked to violence and humilation. In this way they are comparable to the words Nigger and Paki, because those words were grown in the manure of racial violence and humiliation. Violence is never justified, but Catholic anger at the Marches is understandable. The orange orders may not have the power they used to have but they are founded of the same substance as they always were. Trying to pass the marches off as anything less than a statement of seperateness is just plain denial. The mentality is best summed up by a story my Dad once told me about a sea voyage he took to South Africa, during which there was a knock on his door. Upon opening it, he found himself confronted with a Northern Irish Protestant, who had scoured the names of all the passengers on board, and found an Irish surname amongst them. He then located my Dads cabin, knocked on the door and announced: "I just wanted you to know - we're different!" And that is what the Orange marches symbolize ... '... we aren't like you, and don't for one second presume to believe you are like us.' Some people will ignore this, but some will find it very upsetting, whilst others still will use it as an excuse to commit violent crime, with the circle comleting as the Orange men say to themselves "you see - they're savages - not like us" And round and round it goes. Oh yes - and guess what - Keith A doesn't see what the fuss is all about. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Jul 10 - 05:52 PM "Actually the Nationalist population has grown and is growing, and the Unionist population has shrunk and is shrinking." I was referring to the overall period since partition, as you were. I repeat, there was no official policy of enouraging emigration, but the circumstances the Catholics found themselves in had the effect of forcing many to emigrate. The populations of both the Republic and the six counties have fluctuated wildly, but the fact remains that the Catholic population became a persecuted minority under Unionist control - please don't prevaricate. I think you'll find that the higher birth-rate among Catholics might just have something to do with the growth in population - something to do with their attitude to contraception and family planning I would guess. "....enormous block of text" It really isn't my fault if you are incapable of following large amounts of information - the Irish question is a big one - shelves full of it here. I have to assume that people have both the patience and the intelligence to take information in - sorry if that's not the case with you - haven't had any complaints before. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: GUEST,MG Date: 14 Jul 10 - 07:59 PM i think the answer is something like if you can't beat them join them...everyone bring an orange flute to toodle and wear lots of orange that day and wave little orange flags and pass out orange lollipops etc. Another day to make merry and celebrate the more positive parts of a group's heritage. Join in with them like all sorts of people join in on St. Patrick's day..which by the way I think the parades were originally in US to show a sort of group strength, as in look here we are and don't mess with us as at least part of their origins. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Greg F. Date: 14 Jul 10 - 09:23 PM Right-o Keith- good old Blog-O-Pedia. Now can you cite any reliable sources? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 14 Jul 10 - 10:03 PM All that to do for bloody Billy and his bitch Mary. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: cobra Date: 14 Jul 10 - 10:06 PM Keith, When in hole stop digging! YOu have stated the following:- " ...there was no "deliberate British policy encouraging emigration" to or from NI..." It seems you want to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds; I do not believe that anyone has made claims about a "deliberate British policy encouraging emigration" to or from NI...". as you state. However, the reality is that the then Northern Ireland prime minister, one Lord Brookeborough, made it clear to a gathering of Unionist worthies that they should encourage Catholic emigration by ensuring that only Protestants were employed - that is a matter of historical record, btw - the objective being to ensure the Protestant majority. Of course, when it suited, the strategy of forced emigration through employment discrimination was supported by use of intimidation of Catholic workers in the shipyards and exclusion from general employment opportunity. Once again, this is a matter of public record. I can reassure you that my father was a victim of this blatant discrimination, a man who wanted nothing more than an equal opportunity to compete but who was denied on the grounds of his perceived faith - he also had to witness triumphalist marches every year where it was made clear that "walking the road" was a demonstration of what can only be called droit-de-seigneur. For some reason, and I am assuming you do have a reason, you post persistent, value-laden, sectarian smears regarding things which have taken place in the six counties - interstingly you have not responded to my request for information as to what/ who enlightened you with regard to Northern Ireland. I cannot believe that your philophical outlook was borne out of a weekend trip to a wedding in County Down. Sadly, you present as a bigot who ahs little or nothing to offer to the debate about how a lasting solution might be achieved. It begs the question as to whether you are actually a troll intent only on fanning sectarian flames. Easy done from a Hertford armchair! One final question to add to those which I have asked but which remain unanswered so far. Have you actually served in the British Army? If so, was it in peacetime and do you have any campaign medals? Oops, two questions! My bad.... soooo sorry Captain Mainwaring. Your grasp of facts is tenuous to say the least, your attempted manipulation of statistics is frankly pathetic and generally beneath contempt. You bring nothing to the table apart from Hertford armchair bull. An armchair warrior talking about matters Irish on the basis that he spent a weekend in County Down at a friend's wedding is seriously pathetic. I do not know what drives your agenda. All I do know is that your arguments are intellectually weak, your logic is shallow, you show no inclination to engage intellectually,rather you appear to prefer invective and wild extrapolation.... and, finally, your grasp of history is tenuous. In your defence, you have clearly had a hell of a time in the course of your one weekend in County Down! Hopefully no-one has incriminating pictures and no-one has been hurt in the creation of your pretty picture. Peace and love brother, peace and love..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Sandy Mc Lean Date: 14 Jul 10 - 10:49 PM Will, you stated: "I wonder what would happen if the UK Government actually decided to relinquish dominion of Northern Ireland and hand it completely to the Irish Republic. " I suppose I do as well and a civil war may possibly have been the result, but that would have been resolved, one way or another by the Irish, without British influence, years ago. From that they would have moved on. Festering wounds, on the other hand, have caused much more pain over time! I have often wondered why Britain so freely gave Honk Kong back to China ( a much more repressive regime) but would not relinquish Ulster to a democratic Republic of Ireland? In Hong Kong's case they did not poll the people as to their desires but acted against the wishes of what was no doubt a majority. I suspect that the hope for monetary gain in Chinese trade exceeded any respect for democracy! Shit happens, especially when political corruption is the driving force! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Desert Dancer Date: 15 Jul 10 - 01:11 AM I heard a radio report today that this year's violent (rock throwing) response to the parades in the Ardoyne district of North Belfast included children down to 9 years old, and that social networking and cell phone photos seemed to be bringing in young people who were not local, just out for a lark. The local priest who was being interviewed and who had been on the street with others working to keep the peace also pleaded for some compromise and common sense -- some of the parade times and locations are more inflammatory than others and adjustments should be made. The interviewer asked if kids were on their own, or brought by parents. Many were not -- he contacted parents he knew and most did not know what their kids were up to and promised to retrieve them. But he did see one adult with a 4-year-old in tow cheering on some young rock-throwers. He said it made him despair. He also pointed out the the cost of the policing required could have paid for a school or a hospital... Violence in Belfast on Public Radio International's "The World" (with reporting from PRI, BBC, and WGBH). So sad to me that this mess lingers on... ~ Becky in Tucson |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 15 Jul 10 - 01:42 AM Cobra, that quote about "deliberate British policy" came from Sandy M. Cobra, If I get something wrong, identify it and tell me. My posts are short to make that easy. Attacking me personally is not debating. Greg F, Jim has set me a huge piece of guff to challenge, so I went for quickness. Are you saying Wiki is wrong on that? Jim, Protestants emigrate too, and the evidence is that their emigration is higher.http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=wPoupHOBkAgC&pg=PA167&lpg=PA167&dq=protestant+catholic+emigration+northern+ireland&source=bl& |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 15 Jul 10 - 01:46 AM Sandy, China had law on its side over Hong Kong. The lease expired. Its people wanted to stay with britain, but Britain could hardly resist the might of China. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: GUEST,mg Date: 15 Jul 10 - 02:10 AM I had heard that the British at some point did not want dominion over Northern ireland..they wanted to wash their hands of it, but the people of Northern Ireland..some of them...begged for protection etc. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: GUEST,mg Date: 15 Jul 10 - 02:28 AM Well, I watched the video and it would not horrify me having a bunch of men ranging from old to young playing flutes and drums and ambling down a street..now if that street was chosen to find the most Catholic neighborhood where they had not traditionally marched, then it would be wrong to permit it. If there is too much violence that results from where they traditionally have it, ideally the violencers should be the ones stopped but that is not always possible and you have to bow to public safety and probably move the event. But there is no reason other than public safety, and these people did not seem aggressive in their bowler hats and umbrellas, for us to meddle with their tradition or holiday. And as it gets safer for everyone, it will be more fun besides....kids on trikes and horses with orange ribbons... We mess with other peoples' heritage at our peril because the tide will turn and they will want to quash our own. There is no reason that fathers and sons and grandsons should not assemble and peacefully march in their traditional areas..except public safety must trump other issues. And I think I will celebrate the day from now on..take the good and leave the bad of any cultural group. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Jul 10 - 03:32 AM "Jim has set me a huge piece of guff to challenge" Keith, If you think my contributions are guff - please feel free to ignore them. If they are too much for you to take in - please don't strain your brain trying to, If you think my points are wrong - as with our arguments in the past, challenge them. If you don't understand the North Eastern Ireland msituation - buy a book. I have set nothing for YOU to challenge - THIS ISN'T ABOUT YOU BOY - IT'S ABOUT IRELAND!!! Meanwhile, back at the ranch - the news on the ground is that last night marked the third night of rioting in Belfast (or scuffles, as Keith referred to them). Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 15 Jul 10 - 03:51 AM Jim, ignoring your magnum opus would give it credence. You would like that wouldn't you. I have so far challenged one part of one sentence! It did not stand up to scrutiny, but look what it has taken to refute it. Anyone could do what you do. Type in half an hour of stream of consciousness. All opinion. No evidence. No sources. Worthless in debate. BEHOLD the thoughts of Chairman Jim. You may now discuss them. It is no more than a bullying tactic to dominate the thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: John MacKenzie Date: 15 Jul 10 - 04:12 AM Why has some clone added Drumcree to the title of this thread? I assume it was someone across the water with no real knowledge of the Orange Walks that happen every year, and in many locations. Many are held outwith Northern Ireland too. Drumcree isn't the only apple in the barrel! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 15 Jul 10 - 04:48 AM Re partition, here is a differnet take than Jim's. It is brief to make it easy to challenge anything that is factually incorrect. Most of Ireland wanted out of British rule, but Ulster wanted to stay in and was prepared to fight. Dublin wanted to force them out, but did not have the might. Britain wanted to force them out, but the army refused to do it. Illiberal Jim thinks they should have been forced out. How Jim? Politicians can only hope to please most of the people most of the time. They tinkered with the border so as few people as possible found themselves on the wrong side of the (open) border. What more could they do? Some of those who did not get their own way, stamped their feet and started executing people. It still goes on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Jul 10 - 05:49 AM "BEHOLD the thoughts of Chairman Jim." Right - I really have had anough of this; it's like having a fractious child hanging onto your arm. Please leave me alone - I'm far too old to cope with a cyberstalker. If you want to argue my points (the ones you understand), please do so. If you reduce this to infantile name-calling as you did on previous threads I will ask the adudicator to look into your behaviour - try to behave like an adult and don not fuck up another thread. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Lonesome EJ Date: 16 Jul 10 - 03:32 AM Exciting video, there Cbp |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 17 Jul 10 - 07:55 AM Curious. When I challenged the opinion of others on the partition, people lined up to tell me I knew nothing, could not think for myself, was in a hole, etc., etc. A few posts up I gave my version of what led to it. Not one person has challenged a word. Invective is easier I guess. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: GUEST,Allan C Date: 18 Jul 10 - 04:59 AM "Well, let's see. 320 years ago two British kings (well, one was mostly French and the other Dutch, but let's not quibble) fought it out in Ireland" Quite so a family squabble over the thrones of Scotland, England and Ireland - with the real coveted prize being the throne in London. James the ousted monarch against his daughter and her husband who also happened to be his nephew. A family squabble which was only a sideshow in a much wider European conflict. Both William and James had blood on their hands and why anyone nowadays would be bothered about either of these guys bemuses me. The real issues are surely inter-communal conflict, mutual distrust, sectarianism and more modern politics with the Jacobite or Williamite things just trappings nowadays. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: GUEST,Tunesmith Date: 18 Jul 10 - 05:24 AM Keith says that there are thousands of such parades but only a few are contentious. I don't agree! I was brought up in Southport UK, a seaside town 20 miles north of Liverpool, and every year the Orange Order marches through the town on July 12th. The locals hate it! But, it brings a lot of money in to the town and as the Blessed Bob said , money doesn't talk it swears". I feel very sorry for the people who march stuck - as they are - in ancient, destructive tribalism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Ruth Archer Date: 18 Jul 10 - 05:29 AM "Well, I watched the video and it would not horrify me having a bunch of men ranging from old to young playing flutes and drums and ambling down a street..now if that street was chosen to find the most Catholic neighborhood where they had not traditionally marched, then it would be wrong to permit it. If there is too much violence that results from where they traditionally have it, ideally the violencers should be the ones stopped but that is not always possible and you have to bow to public safety and probably move the event. But there is no reason other than public safety, and these people did not seem aggressive in their bowler hats and umbrellas, for us to meddle with their tradition or holiday. And as it gets safer for everyone, it will be more fun besides....kids on trikes and horses with orange ribbons... We mess with other peoples' heritage at our peril because the tide will turn and they will want to quash our own. There is no reason that fathers and sons and grandsons should not assemble and peacefully march in their traditional areas..except public safety must trump other issues. And I think I will celebrate the day from now on..take the good and leave the bad of any cultural group. mg" I can only assume this post is meant to be satire...mg, are you the one who also loudly defends your right to drink green beer and play Bing Crosby records on St Patrick's Day? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Jul 10 - 05:45 AM Tunesmith, "Keith says that there are thousands of such parades but only a few are contentious. " I did not say that. It was the Sinn Fein MNA who said that. In what way is he misinformed? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: GUEST,Tunesmith Date: 18 Jul 10 - 06:00 AM I don't care who said it because it is just not true. Southport has, historically, no connections with either side in this matter, and yet the locals don't like the march and see it as an unhealthy dislay of tribalism. That being the case, how must similar marches be viewed by, probably, millions of people living in Ireland? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Have a Glorious Twelfth! (Drumcree Parade) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 18 Jul 10 - 06:50 AM Tunesmith, you and I both live in England, so our opinions are of limited value on this. If you want to be believed over the Ardoyne Sinn Fein MNA, you need to give us a good reason. You could start by telling us how you canvassed the people of Southport, England. |
