Can you identify this guitar?

Subject: Can you identify this guitar?
From: alex s
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 01:04 PM

I have acquired an old 12 string guitar which looks just like a Harmony Sovereign 6 string I had years ago.

There's no label inside or any other markings, and the headstock has a faint logo shadow remaining - Folk 12.
It has a zero fret and a double saddle. Most of it is original, but the wide tailpiece has been replaced by a narrower one - the marks of the original remain. There is no truss rod.

It looks very similar to one played by Pete Townshend of the Who.

Any ideas on origin, age and maybe current value?

Subject: RE: Can you identify this guitar?
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 01:07 PM

A pic would help, Alex - any chance of posting one somewhere?

Subject: RE: Can you identify this guitar?
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 01:09 PM

Tanglewood do a modern 12-string called a Folk 12, but yours sounds much older - that's why a pic would help! :-)

Subject: RE: Can you identify this guitar?
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 01:24 PM

Pic needed. Harmony or Stella spring to mind as possibilities, obviously.

Subject: RE: Can you identify this guitar?
From: Gurney
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 02:56 AM

My first guitar was a Rossetti Folk 12. Bought it used, circa 1959.
I can't remember what it looked like, -I modified it far from original- but it was a dreadnaught shape, twelve-fret neck, tailpiece. It was a cheapie with strip blocking, plastic purfling. Nice tone, though. Deep and mellow.
The action was so high as to make it unplayable, which is why I started fiddling with guitars. To coin a phrase.

Subject: RE: Can you identify this guitar?
From: Bernard
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 10:32 AM

Oh yes, well do I remember the Rosetti guitars! They did a semi-acoustic with a cutaway, in green or red, but without pickups...!

Really cheap and nasty! The neck, in particular, was really badly finished.

Subject: RE: Can you identify this guitar?
From: alex s
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 11:01 AM

now I need to know how to get pics on here for you to appraise! - Will,(Mr Fly), .................. over to you, mate.

Subject: RE: Can you identify this guitar?
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 Jul 10 - 11:17 AM

Alex - email me a digital pic of the guitar and I'll post it on my website so the link can be put in this thread. If you've lost me email address, check my website or PM me. :-)

Subject: RE: Can you identify this guitar?
From: spb123
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 05:38 AM

Hi all
This is my first post. I think I have the exact same guitar and was wondering the same thing as the OP. I have pics but not sure how to post them either.

Subject: RE: Can you identify this guitar?
From: spb123
Date: 18 Jul 10 - 05:42 AM

I have found this one currently selling on ebay which is 'very similar' but mine is a bit better looking.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/STUNNING-1970s-FOLK-12-STRING-JUMBO-GUITAR-JAPAN-/180533158451?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guit

Subject: RE: Can you identify this guitar - pics
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 07:04 AM

Here are three pics of a guitar similar to Alex's:

12-string 1
12-string 2
12-string 3

Subject: RE: Can you identify this guitar?
From: spb123
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 04:18 AM

Hi
If you all don't have a clue about this guitar can I ask what would be a reasonable amount, in your opinion, to sell it for on ebay?

Subject: RE: Can you identify this guitar?
From: Gurney
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 04:21 PM

Will's pictures are of a guitar VERY similar to the Rossetti Folk 12. The rosette and tailpiece and general shape are the same.
SPB123's picture is of a guitar longer in the body.

Subject: RE: Can you identify this guitar?
From: alex s
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 04:25 PM

have just sent Will some pics of my guitar - no doubt he will do wizzo things and you'll be able to give your opinion(s) - all suggestions gratefully received (esp from Pete Townshend - Who?)

Subject: RE: Can you identify this guitar?
From: olddude
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 04:25 PM

my guess like Gurney looks like a Rossetti Folk 12 to me .. I kinda disagree the one my neighbor had when I was a kid sounded and played great ...

Subject: RE: Can you identify this guitar?
From: Gurney
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 04:36 PM

Second thoughts: Maybe not the body. My Rossetti appears slightly more slender.
Which doesn't mean that much. I don't suppose anyone would throw away the sides of a guitar that they were making, just because they had to shorten them a little for some reason.

Subject: RE: Can you identify this guitar?
From: Will Fly
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 04:55 PM

Alex's pics:

Pic 1
Pic 2
Pic 3
Pic 4
Pic 5
Pic 6
Pic 7

Subject: RE: Can you identify this guitar?
From: alex s
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 03:50 AM

cheers Will, many thanks.
sorry about the quality, but you get the idea. any opinions?

Subject: RE: Can you identify this guitar?
From: alex s
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 04:49 AM

where's Don Meixner when you need him?!

Subject: RE: Can you identify this guitar?
From: alex s
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 12:42 PM

I can't believe NOBODY recognises this guitar!

Subject: RE: Can you identify this guitar?
From: maeve
Date: 23 Jul 10 - 08:26 AM

refresh...

Give us time, alex s. :) Will Fly has reposted the photos here New thread, so perhaps there will be some fresh thought given to your guitar's probable maker.

Subject: RE: Can you identify this guitar?
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Jul 10 - 01:22 PM

Looks fairly like my old Rosetti(nicked in Cheshire about 20 years ago). That had another name on it, one at the head and another on a label inside(can't remember where it said Rosetti). Can't remember the other name. And it also said Singapore somewhere, probably on the label.
My Rosetti had yellower wood.

Subject: RE: Can you identify this guitar?
From: GUEST,artwest
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 03:54 PM

I've just bought a very similar guitar myself. Again, no maker's label.

Mine is just like the eBay pic which spb123 posted - except for no added pickups.

Mine looks like a cross between Will's initial pictures and Alex's.

The "Folk 12" label looks to be the same font as Will's. Too close to be coincidence at least. It would have to be a deliberate fake if it wasn't the same manufacturer. The tailpiece looks exactly the same. (not as angled as the one in Alex's pics)

The main differences between Alex's and mine:
I have no zero fret. The rosette on mine is slightly different. The bridge on mine is angled. Mine has a brown marble effect scratch plate - it's not as ornate as the one in Will's pics but it seems to me that the way that the curve of the edge of the scratchplate relates to the curve of the guitar is quite distinctive and is similar.

One thing which hasn't been mentioned: On my guitar, and the eBay example, there is a little plastic shield on the headstock which reads, on mine, "PATENT 34-4127".
I got temporarily excited about this until I googled "PATENT 34-4127" and everything from Gretchs to Harmonys came up with that patent number.

Also the very faint markings on the back of the headstock - which can be vaguely seen on the eBay pics reads "JAPAN".

I'd be intrigued if anyone knows more.

Subject: RE: Can you identify this guitar?
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 03:41 AM

Its a Harmony Sovereign. The double saddle is a give-away - one to set the intonation and the other to hold the strings in place. I played one only yesterday. It had "Harmony" on the headstock but had no label.
QED
RAy

Subject: RE: Can you identify this guitar?
From: GUEST,MC Fat (at work)
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 05:16 AM

Think Harmony used to supply music shops with their 'own brand' at one time, the guitar would be badged up with whatever the shop wanted to call it.

Subject: RE: Can you identify this guitar?
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 08:28 AM

The one I played had "Harmony" on the head. I'd guess it was from the 60's or early 70's

Subject: RE: Can you identify this guitar?
From: alex s
Date: 21 Sep 10 - 11:03 AM

anybody tried the "vintage" 12-string tuners from StewMac? Mine are pretty useless.

Subject: RE: Can you identify this guitar?
From: alex s
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 10:54 AM

no one?

Subject: RE: Can you identify this guitar?
From: alex s
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 10:56 AM

Tuners:

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Guitar,_slotted_peghead_tuners/Golden_Age_Restoration_Tuners_for_12-string.html

Subject: RE: Can you identify this guitar?
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 02:27 PM

No, I haven't tried them but, if its any help, I've recently acquired a set of their mandolin equivalents for my '15 Gibson "A". Tuners with the correct hole spacing haven't been manufactured for over 90 years - until a couple of months ago; but I digress. Off the instrument, they seem OK and they're uncannily like the originals apart from the gear screws. I'm not sure how "standard" the spacing is for 12 string guitar. I'd have thought they'd either all be the same or all different.

If you're prepared to sink a few quid into it how about these - http://www.allparts.uk.com/online-shop/allparts-guitar-amp-parts/tuning-keys/guitar/miscellaneous-guitar-keys/12-string-tuning-keys-6x6-on-a-strip-p-3199.html

If you want the ultimate you might want to go for these - http://www.alessituningmachines.it/12strings.htm - they are good, I tried some the other day.
Ray

Subject: RE: Can you identify this guitar?
From: Spot
Date: 22 Sep 10 - 02:56 PM

Haloo everybody...

In a similar position to Alex here but no idea how to post a photo for everyone's perusal... Any assistance/advice gratefully received..

Thanks and regards to all....    Spot

Subject: RE: Can you identify this guitar?
From: alex s
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 08:24 AM

Many thanks, Guest Ray - I'll try them.