what is Asturian music?

Subject: what is Asturian music?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 03:22 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vauvtI8bvKk&feature=related

And what is the relation to Cuba? I found some great almost Irish-sounding pipers on Cuba you tube..some playing St. Patrick's Day parade in Havana. Then sume Asturian Cuban music. mg

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: Bruce MacNeill
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 03:29 PM

I believe that Asturias is an area in Spain. Other than the Spanish connection to Cuba I don't know what it would have to do with Cuban music.

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: ClaireBear
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 03:54 PM

Nothing to add about a Cuban connection, but as to the rest, Asturias is a province in northern Spain, separated from most of that country by a formidable range of mountains and thus culturally distinct from the rest of Spain. It has its own language, culture, and music...and that music is indeed identifiably Celtic. I have heard that this is because it was historically more common for the Asturians (who were largely a sea-going people) to interact with the folk across the English Channel and Irish Sea than with those across the mountains.

Here in California, I once took a woman from the (geographically close to Asturias) Catalan region of Spain to a concert of the Asturian band Llan de Cubel, who were touring here. (They're great, BTW.) She loved the music, but she told me it was more reminiscent of her husband's ancestral village where she spent her Christmases -- in a remote part of Scotland -- than of her own part of Spain.

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 03:59 PM

Asturian is part of the celtic tradition. They play bagpipes and drums.   The music is good foot tapping stuff. I came across them at the Lorient festival in Britany.

Being Spanish they are likely to have a link with Cuba but the music is dissimmilar.

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 04:23 PM

from my 2 minutes of You tube they seem to actually be in Cuba..does anyone know if there was a major immigration?

Their bagpiping is awesome. mg

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: GUEST,^&*
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 05:06 PM

Some relevant material in THIS THREAD

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 05:25 PM

Anyone familiar with mining in the U. S. is familiar with Asturian immigrants. Mining was important in Asturias. Others came seeking a new life.
Some went to Cuba, and other new world countries.
There is an association.
Help is given to those who wish to return to Asturias to retire.

Asturian-American Migration Forum:
Asturianus

"These Asturians immigrants established an informal but lively network which connected Spain, Cuba, Florida, Indiana, Kansas, Missouri, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, West Virginia and other locations within the U. S."

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: Tangledwood
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 05:52 PM

Felpeyu   are well worth listening to. I'm not sure if there are any on-line clips, I didn't come across any on their site.

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: Dame Pattie Smith EPNS
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 09:01 PM

As it happens I am leaving for Asturias in 2 hours. I am dancing at the Celtic festival in Aviles Asturias with my dance team for the next week. This will be my 3rd visit there. It is a great country and the people are very welcoming. It is a brilliant festival.

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 10:43 PM

By coincidence or fate a friend gave me a ride today and I knew her father was from Spain and I mentioned this and she said that was where he was from..and she has some old bagpipes...interesting. mg

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 11:19 PM

http://www.cubagenweb.org/ships/index.htm

About immigrating from Asturia? to Cuba..says about 80,000 did in last half of 19th century. mg

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Jul 10 - 11:23 PM

here is some piping.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1825406434/documenting-the-cuban-bagpipers-the-first-ever-c

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: Tradsinger
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 04:30 AM

So all folk music is Celtic now, then?

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: romanyman
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 05:09 AM

anything with pies is ok by me

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: romanyman
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 05:10 AM

oh pipes, thats even better

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 05:13 AM

"So all folk music is Celtic now, then?"

To some people. The first time I heard Asturian music, I thought I was listening to something from the Balkans.

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 06:26 AM

They seem to have picked up the "Celtic" bollocks from Galician musicians who found it a useful marketing hook.

Their music has nothing intrinsically in common with that of any place in the British Isles..

Asturian bagpipes are a bit like the ones Jonathan Swayne makes - extended-range conical bore chanters, as loud as Highland pipes but capable of much higher notes. I don't know how anybody manages to learn to play them without going deaf.

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 07:15 AM

Bollocks is a very good way of summing up the entire Celtic phenomenon. Like Jack I hear absolutely no connection between Asturian music and that of the Scots, Welsh, Irish or Breton traditions. Ditto for Galicia.

Why can't we accept that there's bloody good music in the Asturias, Galicia, and a whole lot of other places, without dreaming up specious unprovable, untenable and very likely non-existent connections with the rest of the Celtic world.

Sorry if I sound like I got out of the wrong side of bed. But few things get me more annoyed than people trying to map out racial/genetic determinants for the way music sounds. They don't exist.

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 12:52 PM

Well, grumpy people, there are DNA tests that can show various things. And of course music travels back and forth and design of instruments as well. There are theories that parts of Ireland had quite a Spanish genetic/Basque heritage, easily implied at least by DNA testing.

And to my ears hearing them for the first time they looked and sounded somewhat Scottish, with the dance they were doing reminding me of the highland fling. Silly me. mg

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: open mike
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 02:02 PM

see (and hear) for yourself
http://www.llandecubel.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llan_de_Cubel
http://www.folkworld.de/2/llan.html

also see here for info about Celtic / Iberian (Spanish) (Celtiberian)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtiberians

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 02:07 PM

2 examples - "Llan de Cubel", as mentioned above, and I'd also recommend "Tejedor". Great music, and that's the only label that matters.

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 02:08 PM

Asturian music? Music from Vinena, with lots of yolleding? Or perhaps Mozrat?

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 03:23 PM

It is very interesting, although I have not done it of course, to follow the DNA history of horses...

http://www.horse-stall.net/horse-breeds/asturian-horse.htm

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 03:24 PM

It says this breed in Ireland, perhaps cross-bred, was called hobby horse or palfrey. That word appears in Jock of Hazeldeen..palfrey fresh and fair...any connection? mg

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 03:34 PM

I am trying to remember that Latin passage by ceasar? we had to memorize

Omnes Gallos divisa est in tres partes...in eadem linguam appelabantur Gallos in nostrum linguam appelabantur????

Anyone know the rest? and does it have any relevance?

They have found signfiicant DNA from Syrian archers of the Roman armies and I think boatmen from Iraq or Iran...in the British population...

mg

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 03:44 PM

This is from Julius Ceasar who called peoples of somewhere in that area Celts.

Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres, quarum unam incolunt Belgae, aliam Aquitani, tertiam qui ipsorum lingua Celtae, nostra Galli appellantur. Hi omnes lingua, institutis, legibus inter se differunt. Gallos ab Aquitanis Garumna flumen, a Belgis Matrona et Sequana dividit. Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae, propterea quod a cultu atque humanitate provinciae longissime absunt, minimeque ad eos mercatores saepe commeant atque ea quae ad effeminandos animos pertinent important, proximique sunt Germanis, qui trans Rhenum incolunt, quibuscum continenter bellum gerunt. Qua de causa Helvetii quoque reliquos Gallos virtute praecedunt, quod fere cotidianis proeliis cum Germanis contendunt, cum aut suis finibus eos prohibent aut ipsi in eorum finibus bellum gerunt. Eorum una, pars, quam Gallos obtinere dictum est, initium capit a flumine Rhodano, continetur Garumna flumine, Oceano, finibus Belgarum, attingit etiam ab Sequanis et Helvetiis flumen Rhenum, vergit ad septentriones. Belgae ab extremis Galliae finibus oriuntur, pertinent ad inferiorem partem fluminis Rheni, spectant in septentrionem et orientem solem. Aquitania a Garumna flumine ad Pyrenaeos montes et eam partem Oceani quae est ad Hispaniam pertinet; spectat inter occasum solis et septentriones.

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 03:55 PM

here is a link

http://www.celticattic.com/contact_us/the_celts/celtic_nations/galicia.htm

Funny I had heard of Galicia and Celtic Spain but not Asturias by name before yesterday. mg

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 04:41 AM

Just because a form of music features bagpipes doesn't make it "Celtic". Pipes are found throughout Europe and the Middle East, including areas outside the ones once dominated by celtic culture.

Celticism seems to have been a cultural and linguistic distinction rather than a racial one, until it was redefined for political reasons, and more recently for marketing purposes.

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: GUEST,Patsy Warren
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 05:27 AM

I could be wrong here but from the areas mentioned where this music is thought to originate from makes me wonder if it could have Gypsy origins. Perhaps the music journeyed with them?

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 07:29 AM

The Caesar quote is about Gaul. He says the Celtic bit stops at Aquitaine, which in his time spoke a dialect of Basque, and everything beyond that was part of "Hispania", of whose ethnic composition he says nothing. (There were speakers of Celtic languages in Spain then, regardless).

Gypsies are all over Spain. As elsewhere in Europe, they adopted and developed the local music rather than contributing any very strong idiom of their own. In any case we have plenty of notated Spanish music from before they arrived that shows that the current idiom was already well-established. But we have no music dating back to the time when any part of the Iberian peninsula was Celtic-speaking, nor do we have any evidence at all as to what that music might have been like.

Musically, the music of present-day Asturias is most like that of adjoining regions of Spain (in the same way that the "Celtic" music of Scotland and Ireland has English music as its closest relative). Not much Arabic influence made it that far north, so you don't get the modal rhythms and Arabic scales you find in flamenco.

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: Tradsinger
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 08:01 AM

One of the keystones of Asturian folk music is the 'Asturianada', a form of unaccompanied solo song, sung in a very decorated fashion. The best example I could find on YouTube is
here.. To my ear, the singing style has a lot in common with Flamenco, thus proving that Flamenco derives from Celtic music. (Celtic Schmeltic). I agree with all above postings that see the 'Celtic' thing in music as a marketing ploy and everyone now is rushing to find links between their music and 'Celtic'. Why not just say that all folk musis is Celtic and be done with it, so that we have the C word replacing the F word!

Signed

Grumpy from Gloucestershire

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: JennieG
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 08:08 AM

Two members of Felpeyu were killed in a touring accident in 2006, I don't know if the rest of the group is still performing. I saw them at a couple of festivals, they were great.

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: GUEST,Grumpy Fred McCormick (whose cookie just exp
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 09:07 AM

When I was teaching Irish music, I played the class a bit of Balkan music (Yugoslavian, if I recall correctly), without telling them what it was. The idea was to demonstrate that not all great traditional music comes from Ireland.

I asked folks what they thought of it, and was astonished when one guy, who had been around Irish music for about forty years, said, "that sounds really Celtic".

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: Monique
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 09:45 AM

The song Tradsinger linked to reminds me of Corsican and Sardinian songs -not just because of being in a Romance language.

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 09:59 AM

[Asturian horse]
It says this breed in Ireland, perhaps cross-bred, was called hobby horse or palfrey. That word appears in Jock of Hazeldeen.. palfrey fresh and fair... any connection?

According to the OED, the word "palfrey" is Latin originally. It occurs in every Romance language and was first used in English in the 11th century. It refers to a size of horse rather than a specific breed.

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: Splott Man
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 04:01 AM

Whether the music of different small nations has any real connection with others is not an issue is it? By organising festivals under the Celtic banner it gives these nations a bigger voice on the world stage, and allows communication and cross-fertilisation of ideas between like-minded people of different cultures and traditions.
At the moment there is an interceltic festival going on in Aviles, the capital of Asturias, with representations and performance from Asturias, Brittany, Galicia, Wales, Scotland and Ireland among others.

The commercial use of the word Celtic is a different issue altogether.

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: Mick Tems
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 04:28 AM

Well said, Splottie!

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 01:46 PM

And presumably that "intercultural" festival shuts out Basques, Gypsies and Catalans, let alone Spain's immigrant groups like the Romanians and Moroccans.

Why are we supposed to see such a selective sort of unity as a good thing?

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: Splott Man
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 02:11 PM

I was giving eaxamples, not a full list. Back off!

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: Splott Man
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 02:13 PM

I'd like to pull back a bit from my strong reaction there Jack, having re-read your posts, I see where you are coming from. Apologies.

I was commenting generally, not to your specific points.

Splott Man

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 02:54 PM

Perhaps there is another post but I recall reading one recently saying inter-Celtic. I have no way of proving or deciding who is what, but if a group of people has consistently said that they are it is not up to me.

Anyway, I see nothing wrong with that..of grouping people together. Like the Asturians I believe, again based on 2 minutes of you tubing, have connections that they consider very important in Spain, Cuba, probably South America and North America.

I think that the French-Speaking people, such as Haiti, France, perhaps Vietnam or SE Asia, Quebec, Franco-America have various inclusive festivals. Now, they are probably not going to invite people with no French-speaking tradition, but that is not the same as visciously excluding them.

I think this is a good thing. Various diasporas really really hurt a lot of people and getting back to some roots, however, butchered, can probably lead to some cultural healing, as well as better international ties etc. mg

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: open mike
Date: 22 Jul 10 - 04:05 PM

that accapella singing sounds very middle eastern...with the trills and
scale used.

There is a song style from near-by Portugal called Fado
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fado
http://www.fado.com/
http://fado-portugal.com/

Made popular by Amalia Rodrigues, here is an interview
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqfmSfsJWFU

sorry for the thread drift...here is a thread about this topic
http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=47096#700726

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: GUEST,elekchok
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 02:09 PM

Actually - My wife is Asturian and a Spanish linguist... and Asturians are, in fact, Celtic in origin.

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 02:39 PM

Can you tell us a bit more about their history? mg

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 02:50 PM

The question is not whether the Asturians, or anyone else, are Celts (although serious doubt has been cast as to whether the so called Celtic tribes actually constituted a distinct ethnic entity).

The question is whether the indigenous musics of the Celtic regions are sufficiently similar to each other, while at the same time being sufficiently different from all the other the other European ethnic groups, for "Celtic" music to be safely regarded as a distinct entity. I don't think they are. In fact I think that the musics of the Celtic regions are as much a part of the musical melting pot of Europe as any other European race or ethnic group, or social culture.

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 02:54 PM

England is just as Celtic. As are Denmark Austria and Germany. True, but meaningless in terms of musical links.

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: Tradsinger
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 05:49 PM

Why meaningless? Irish and Scottish music has more in common with English music than with Breton or Galician music, so can England join the party as well, please? So-called Celtic festivals are not inclusive, as they exclude England.

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: Tangledwood
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 08:03 PM

The question is not whether the Asturians, or anyone else, are Celts (although serious doubt has been cast as to whether the so called Celtic tribes actually constituted a distinct ethnic entity).

The question is whether the indigenous musics of the Celtic regions are sufficiently similar to each other, while at the same time being sufficiently different from all the other the other European ethnic groups, for "Celtic" music to be safely regarded as a distinct entity.

If a particular ethnic group is defined as Celtic isn't the style of music unique to them also Celtic? If the mainstream definition of Celtic music doesn't include their style shouldn't the definition be changed?

This borders dangerously on "define folk music".

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 06:28 AM

Tradsinger. Correct, but that's because the traditional musics of Ireland, Scotland and England have been influencing each other for centuries. I'm tempted to say something about good neighbours but I'd better not. I could though mention migrations between these three countries. Also, the fact that tune books had a common circulation, so that something printed in London would almost certainly be reprinted in (say) Edinburgh and Dublin.

Tangledwood. I'm not trying to define anything. In fact the point of my argument is that Celtic music is undefinable because it doesn't exist. Also, that there is no Celtic people which has a unique style of music. As with the rest of Europe, the musics of the Celtic regions have been influenced and overtrodden by neighbours, marauders and conquesters (if there is such a word) down through the ages to the point where it is impossible to talk about ethnically unique styles of music.

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 07:22 AM

An island off mainland Europe. Historically the spoken language(s) were from the so-called Celtic family, though recently due to conquest/immigration these languages have been largely replaced with English, a language of Germanic or Teutonic origin(terms differ). Celtic languages have continued to be spoken in parts of the island, largely in the west and north, which were better equipped by geography to withstand being taken over. These Celtic languages are still hanging on, and even increasing, nowadays with the help of state support. This is in contrast to the experience of previous times, when governments were often hostile to the indigenous languages.
The above is a definition of two islands, Ireland and Britain. Both of which have generated a vast body of folk music, historically closely intertwined. For bvious political reasons, certain festivals like to include Irish, Scottish, Welsh and Manx music(and occasionally Cornish) music, and leave out English. As far as I can see, this exclusion is only justified by considerations of minority nationalistic fervour (something to which I am by no means immune myself). Buit it can't, as far as I can see, be justified by any spurious notions of "Celticness".

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: Tradsinger
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 08:10 AM

Here, here. Some sensible postings from Fred and Greg.

It seems that it is fashionable to jump on the Celtic bandwagon, as a)it's a good marketing ploy and b) everyone wants to be Irish!

I was recently in Portugal researching pipe and tabor and I was told (only by one person) that one reason they like playing pipe and tabor is that it links them to Celtic traditions. This is in spite of the fact that the pipe and tabor in not played in Ireland, Scotland, Brittany or Galicia!

Coming back to Asturian music, which is usually excellent, they are very keen there on jota music and dance, as throughout much of northern Spain. It is danced to a sort of lively 3/8 rhythm. Bagpipes dominate and the style and music of Asturian is distinctive - I am sure there are lots of examples on YouTube.

In my view, bands like Llan de Cubel, whom I greatly admire by the way, are deliberatly leaning towards Irish music in their style. This gives them more street cred in the 'Celtic' world and lets them in as a member of the 'Pan-Celtic' club.

I rest my case.

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 11:20 AM

Everyone does not want to be Irish but I imagine they want their heritage respected no matter what it is and not be told they are jumping onto some bandwagon when they have traditions back into antiquity. mg

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 11:27 AM

Nobody is disrespecting heritage here: what is being discussed is just whose heriatge is linked to whose Celtically speaking, and whose is linked geographically.

Subject: RE: what is Asturian music?
From: Smedley
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 11:28 AM

Asturias was the only part of Spain never conquered by the Moors. Consequently, some Asturians (and I'm not sure how seriously) claim to be the only 'real' Spaniards.

Trivia: the Asturian city of Oviedo has the only statue anywhere in the world of Woody Allen.