Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 02:47 PM

"Re Jim's remarks about the library being very cramped. This is undoubtedly true; but it is also true that in all the years I have been researching there, I have never yet failed to find space to spread my stuff out and work."quoteG Stephens[for fecking JACK Campin sake]
1.could it be because there was no one else there.
2. how often have Howard Jones and Greg Stephens used the library in the last year, are you in there every week?

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 02:46 PM

Greg
"I have never yet failed to find space....."
With respect, I rather think that this is due to the miniscule people who use the library, (not unconnected to the building itself), rather than there being adequate space. I also spent a great deal of time working there, as an electrician, as a researcher and as a volunteer working to improve the sound collection.
My point that there is inadequate space to house manuscript and book collections and less than adequate listening facilities surely are vital ones to any specialist library of this type.
The argument for sale of the building at the time was that the administrative side of the Society's work could easily be carried out from a small office, the library could be housed elsewheer (I believe there were a number of educational institutions interested at the time, and premises the recrational side activities could be easily acquired at the price the building would fetch on the market.
I still don't know if my assessment of library and soun space still applies.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: oggie
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 02:41 PM

There is perhaps one "relatively" simple solution but it has it's own problems. Does the EFDSS need the main concert hall and some of it's other spaces in their current form? Would it be practical to remodel the interior into an enlarged Library and education space with practice/teaching studios?

I don't know, I suppose it depends how central to the EFDSS running events at C# House is (and the income from hiring out space). I accept that this doesn't answer the location question raised by GSS but given the importance of the VWML it might allow for further expansion both of it and the education work of the EFDSS.

Just a random thought :)

Steve

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 02:28 PM

Well, there is a folk revival happening, and this is the 21st cewntury. I imagine that is what the Good Soldier meant.

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: GUEST,Eh?
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 01:48 PM

This discussion started with the following question: 'The VWML is situated at C Sharp house in London, how important is it to the 21 century English folk revival?'

Apart from the thread providing more information about the UK's railway system than anyone really needs to know, I'm puzzled by the phrase '21st century English folk revival'. OK, the OP didn't exactly write that, but what does it mean?

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 01:42 PM

Re Jim's remarks about the library being very cramped. This is undoubtedly true; but it is also true that in all the years I have been researching there, I have never yet failed to find space to spread my stuff out and work.

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 01:39 PM

For obvious historical reasons, the country's transport system radiates from London. It's a fact that it's easy to get to London from Exeter or Bristol or Manchester or Carlisle or Newcastle or Crewe or Derby or Norwich or whatever(or Cardiff and Glasgow and Edinburgh). What is not easy is to get between most of these subsidiary centres. That's why C Sharp Houise is best placed in London. Obviously, the very best solution would be if the whole of London was moved to Stoke-on-Trent, but that is not going to happen. Or not in the immediately foeseeable future.

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 01:04 PM

"I can only assume that it is some time since you have been there."
Hi Vic,
It is a little over two years since I was there last, when a gang of us from Ireland did a Traditional Song Forum day on Irish song.
I don't know what has happeed since and would be interested to learn.
Is there more user-space in the library; is there space to accept collections and display them or are they either turned down or locked in cupboards; are there now acceptable listening facilities or do you still have to crouch over that long cupboard top?
I'm not in any way disputing what you say - I want to know.
One of the strongest arguments for selling the House was not its location - wherever it is located is going to cause problems for somebody.
The main argument was that the building was unsuitable for all-round use, the hall dominated the premises, was not really suitable for concerts due to its lousy accoustic and was really only usable for the dancers; its high ceiling meant it cost a fortune to heat, which was a severe drain on the Society's resources.
The space in library was totally inadequate (filled to capacity over twenty years ago) and not able to be moved upstairs as was once planned because the floor there was incapable of supporting the weight.
The main argument for keeping it, as I remember, was that it was a shrine to Cecil Sharp and should be cherished as such - which led to a plaque to him being placed on the front of the building (is the entrance in the front - it always confused me?
I do know the building well as I carried out a great deal of electrical work there.
I have to confess that my relationship with the Society has blown hot and cold down the years, but now that I am preparing our own personal archive for depositing for 'posterity' I confess that, despite its shortcomings, it is by far the greatest asset that British folk music has and has to be respected and developed as such, and if a building gets in he way - tough.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 12:34 PM

HOWARD, it must be much quicker for you to drive to Derby.
"Any alternative HQ for the EFDSS would have to be in London in order to be able to lobby the arts establishment and funding organisations - although some people would prefer to believe otherwise, it has to be involved with the arts world and that is the only way it can have any influence or obtain significant funding."Quote
WHY whats wrong with birmingham OR manchester or the midlands,for lobbying arts establishment for funding.
I used to live and run a folk club in suffolk, and i lobbyed for funding from EASTERN ARTS :successfully.

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 11:55 AM

Of course club floorsingers and occasional semi-pros regurgitate songs from someone else's CD, they always have done. However in a great many cases the professionals making those albums have obtained those songs and tunes from sources in the VWML. That is what I meant in my earlier post about the material being disseminated throughout the folk scene. There are probably a great many singers who, without realising it or having visited it themselves, rely on material from the Library. I include myself.

People repeat the mantra about the importance of the Library because it is true. Have you any reason to think people aren't using it, or that the drawbacks you describe actually cause problems in practice?

I can't comment on the suitability of C# House for the Library. I share the view that the building is now out of date. However disposing of the site is not without problems - not just planning, but I seem to recall there are conditions in the trust. But even if the building could be sold and capital released, both EFDSS and VWML would have to be rehoused.

Any alternative HQ for the EFDSS would have to be in London in order to be able to lobby the arts establishment and funding organisations - although some people would prefer to believe otherwise, it has to be involved with the arts world and that is the only way it can have any influence or obtain significant funding.

Likewise, London is the most accessible location for most people coming not only from around the UK but overseas. No location will suit everyone, but the idea that Camden Town is difficult to get to does not bear scrutiny.

Derby is 1 1/2 hrs from London by train. Because I would need to change at least once, it takes a similar time from where I live in Cheshire, which is only 40 miles away - Euston takes only 20 minutes more.

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: mattkeen
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 11:53 AM

Whats wrong with learning a song from a recording?

Regurgitating the same is a different matter
But many people learn from CD's (Voice of the People anyone?) then work on a version of their own

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: oggie
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 11:43 AM

"I suspect that a lot of singers these days just regurgitate songs from someone elses cd."

It was ever thus.

Steve

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: mattkeen
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 11:41 AM

Thanks for your opinion Dick

I personally think Manchester is far to far north
Its a good city, but its just in the wrong place - for my convenience that is.
Please price it up Vic and, if price is reasonable, have it moved to Warwickshire by the time I get back from Sidmouth

Many thanks

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 10:57 AM

Vic, cant you read, it was not the cost of getting to Derby.
as yet no one has replied with details of how often the library is visited, the problenm as I see it, is that C#HOUSE has become rather like a religious shrine, and periodically we get a mantra about the importance of the library, it is almost as if some people believe that if it is repeated often enough we will believe it.
The library is a collection of books, Sound archives and recordings, they are useful as long as people are using it.
I suspect that a lot of singers these days just regurgitate songs from someone elses cd.
I would like to see the library used more and have the premises to expand, I think its present geographical situation, and present building is a disadvantage.

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: oggie
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 10:51 AM

"Easily offset by the sale of a property in a highly sought after area of London...."

However it is a Grade II listed building which may well limit the uses and development that any purchaser can make which again may limit the price it will fetch. However having sold (hypothetically) CS# House we now need a replacement HQ for the EFDSS. Do we also want to replace the concert halls etc and will Derby or wherever be able to support them? Tis a tangled web.

Out of interest, do any of the actual (as opposed to possible) users of the VWML feel that it is unfit for purpose?

Steve

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 10:30 AM

"connected by a footbridge, used as an exit to Pride Park"
or as we in Nottingham know it as Prideless Park ;-)

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: Vic Smith
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 09:22 AM

Easily offset by the sale of a property in a highly sought after area of London....

Are we talking about moving the whole of the EFDSS Headquarters or just the library?

We have however been here before. I have a sickening feeling of déjà vu

Totally agree. Not very productive, is it? When it was being discussed as a serious issue, it very nearly tore the EFDSS apart, as Jim indicates above.

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 09:12 AM

Now could you follow it up with the costs of the moving the library?

Easily offset by the sale of a property in a highly sought after area of London....

We have however been here before. I have a sickening feeling of déjà vu

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: Vic Smith
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 09:09 AM

Jim,
What you are describing is the tired old used-to-be of Cecil Sharp House. I see its vibrancy I go there these days; loads of young people lugging banjo cases eager for their lessons; the massive turnout for Pete Cooper's weekly fiddle lessons (amongst the pupils important media people like Verity Sharp whose enthusiatic support counts for a lot on radio and television programmes), an impressive programme of library lectures that attract a wide age range, I have to pinch myself when I go there these days and say 'Is this the crumbling old edifice that I used to loathe?'

Many of the young acts in their busy concert programme are not to my taste, but I am very encouraged to see their vitality. Even five years ago, it would have been doubtful that an event such as Nowt So Queer As Folk would have taken place there. Times change and Cecil Sharp House has changed quicker than most.

You write - It no longer serves as visitor friendly - I can only assume that it is some time since you have been there.

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 09:08 AM

GUEST ED says that it is southerners living near C# House who approve of its current location. Well, no, actually. I expect I am one of the more prolific users of the library on this thread, and I am delighted to say that the fruits of my researches can be heard performed by revivalist folkies everywhere. And during the period I have been seriously researching trad music I have lived in or near Lancaster, various parts of Cheshire in a boat, in Newcastle-under-Lyme and now in Stoke. And I am perfectly happy with the current location of the EFDSS in Camden. The last thing I want is it to move po Crewe(or indeed Stoke). I vote for
(1) London
(2) Ballydehob.   Nowhere else.

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 08:51 AM

"Heritage destination, "
Are you joking - have you visited C# House?
It gives the impression of an Edwardian telephone exchange and if more than a half-a-dozen people turned up at the same time the library would not be able to cope.
Unless the listening facilities have radically improved over the last 18 months more than two people would be capacity.
It no longer serves as visitor friendly - if it ever did (though one time in the dim and distant past it had a shop that catered for two people at a time - no longer, alas).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: Vic Smith
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 08:51 AM

Thanks very much for the very useful costs of travelling to Derby, Dick. Now could you follow it up with the costs of the moving the library?

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 08:40 AM

Howard, I think you are missing a trick here.
the VWML needes to be accessible to everyone the library and the EFDSS needs to be promoted, but not just to people in mainland Britain, it needs to be a Heritage destination, accessible to overseas visitors.
The library does have to be big enough to accept new material.
JACK, your rail facts are incorrect everything does not go via london in fact there is a train servics from the north to cornwall via Derby ,AND BIRMINGHAM[not london][Virgin Trains
some details of many journeys that donot go through london
copied today from trans pennine express.

From:         To:         Standard from:         1st class from:         Tickets:
Blackpool         Manchester         £5.00 (single)         £10.00 (single)         Buy now
Carlisle         Edinburgh         £7.00 (single)         £12.50 (single)         Buy now
Hull         Leeds         £6.00 (single)         £11.00 (single)         Buy now
Leeds         Windermere         £11.00 (single)         £20.00 (single)         Buy now
Liverpool         Leeds         £7.50 (single)         £15.50 (single)         Buy now
Manchester         Glasgow         £12.00 (single)         £21.50 (single)         Buy now
Manchester         Edinburgh         £12.00 (single)         £21.50 (single)         Buy now
Manchester         Leeds         £6.00 (single)         £11.00 (single)         Buy now
Newcastle         Leeds         £10.50 (single)         £19.00 (single)         Buy now
Newcastle         York         £7.00 (single)         £14.50 (single)         Buy now
Preston         Manchester         £5.00 (single)         £9.00 (single)         Buy now
Preston         Sheffield         £7.50 (single)         £13.50 (single)         Buy now
there is a connecting service from stansted airport to birmingham that does not go through london
Derby station.
   Derby's central location and former importance as a 'railway town' have made it an important node of the rail network. Until recently, major carriage and locomotive workshops as well as the Research Division in the Railway Technical Centre were housed there.

The station is an interchange point between the Midland Main Line from London St Pancras to Leeds and long-distance services on the Cross-Country route from Aberdeen through Birmingham to Penzance (the zero milepost on the Birmingham-bound Cross-Country route is at the south end of platform 1, at the divergence of the two major routes). Until the mid twentieth century, the station was host to through trains from Manchester and Glasgow to London. It is still a busy station, the section to Sheffield having the highest train frequency (passenger and freight) of any line in the East Midlands.

Local services to Matlock along the Derwent Valley Line originate from Derby, and the station also sees local and semi-fast services to Nottingham and Skegness, Stoke-on-Trent and Crewe, and Birmingham, Hereford and Cardiff.

Derby station today has six platforms (all but Platform 5 are through platforms), connected by a footbridge, used as an exit to Pride Park and a new car park.

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 08:04 AM

That second sentence was a little nonsensical - but I'm sure you follow my point,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 08:02 AM

Cap'n;
Your point about the inaccessibility of the V.W.M.L. is a fair one, but one that has been made solvable by the development of the Internet.
I would recommend anybody interested in seeing how an internet can be made accessible look into how the Irish Traditional Music Archive has developed.
It has taken many years of dedication, hard work and string-pulling to get it to the stage it is now at, and it still has a considerable way to go before it is fully usable. It has happened here because people involved in the music have wanted it to happen - sometimes not the case in the UK I think.
I agree with oggie's point about digitisation, but, remembering the bitter fight over the sale of C# House, the in-fighting and ballot tampering, etc, I have my doubts about the wisdom of maintaining costly premises that are no longer fit for purpose and can no longer find space to adequately display existing holdings, let alone accept new material.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 07:53 AM

I live near Edinburgh. I go to London every few years. I've never been to Crewe in my life and last visited Birmingham in 1977 and Leicester sometime around 1980.

London is the one place in the UK you can get to fairly easily from anywhere else in the UK. For most other places, the public transport system forces you to go through London to get there. (I wanted to go to the Malcolm Douglas commemoration in Sheffield - it would have taken me twice as long as getting to London and would have cost much more, despite being half the distance).

I can see the point of collecting contemporary material, but only the sort that will not "stand the test of time" - football songs are the obvious example. Who else is going to preserve stuff that will never be published or commercially recorded? But someday somebody's going to want to know about it, as a mirror of the world we're living in now.

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: Old Vermin
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 07:44 AM

Quote from, I think, Robert Townsend in 'Up the Organisation.'

"Two moves equals one fire."

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: oggie
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 07:22 AM

Groundhog Day. I seem to recall a long thread on the subject of the location of the VWML a couple of years back.

Wherever it is based there will be arguments. Far better that it stays where it is and resources put into extending. conserving and digitalising the collection rather than spending millions (because that's the sort of figures we're looking at) moving it to somewhere else.

Steve

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 07:21 AM

Dick, most people wishing to use the library will be coming from somewhere in England, or at least mainland Britain, and will not be travelling by air. Ease of access to an airport is not a priority. C# House is easily accessible by Tube from all the main London railway stations, and is outside the congestion charging zone. It's hard to think of anywhere else which would be as easily accessible from any part of the country.

I live "up North", by the way, so I don't have a London bias in this. I happen to think that the EFDSS is still too London-centric in its activities, but this is no doubt a question of resources. As a location for the VWML, and for keeping in touch with the arts establishment (essential for funding), C# House is hard to beat.

To answer your original question, I suspect that the overwhelming majority of material performed by the folk revival will have come directly or indirectly from the Library. By this I mean that professional performers are continually disseminating material from the Library to a wider audience, many of whom then adopt that material into their own repertoires. It's hard to understate the Library's importance.

As for contemporary material, if it's any good it will probably have been published somewhere, in some form, so I can see little point in devoting the VWML's scarce resources to it.

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 07:05 AM

how often is the Library used? how many visitors does it get every day? every week?
we all say its a valuable resource but how many of us use it?.
The Library must have details of visitor numbers?
I am doubtful that revival singers from North Yorkshire, Newcastle , Shropshire , are in there daily or even once a week., but I would be very happy to be proved wrong.
John Moulden, is wrong[if he is saying it is easy to fly to london and go to C sharp house, from the following london airports it is as easy [and in two cases easier] to get to the midlands.FROM london luton, Gatwick Stansted.

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: Vic Smith
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 07:02 AM

There is so much good sense in what you say, Dick, that I am forced to agree with you. Let's straight away move the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library to Stoke (for Greg's convenience) or Crewe or Derby or Leicester or Birmingham or wherever you think would be most suitable.

I'm sure that it would be a worthwhile move. I'm sure that you, Dick, would like to head the fundraising committee to meet the costs involved. I would gladly help by arranging a detailed costing of buying new premises and arranging the careful packing and transport of sometimes priceless but vulnerable material, though I'm afraid that my initial investigation reveals that it may run into millions of pounds.
I would also make it my responsibility to convince Malcolm, Peta and Elaine that there is so much to be gained by moving to a destination of your choice.

Please could you post your planned time scale for the move along with the exact location you have in mind so that I can make progress on producing a detailed and realistic estimate of the costs.

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: Old Vermin
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 06:46 AM

Would there be a case for say the British Library or even the PRS logging contemporary material?

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 06:43 AM

I have to say that I'm with Good Soldier Schweik on the location issue.

It's indicative that the two posters, Manitas and Will Fly, who have voiced support for the current site live relatively nearby.

Will's example of the train time from Lancaster is somewhat disingenuous, Lancaster being on the West Coast Mainline. It's a hell a lot harder from other northern towns.

It won't change so I'll shut up.

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 06:32 AM

If the library decided to spend its time acquiring all songs written in England every year(published, manuscript, broadcasts and recording)...well, that might be a very interesting project. But it would need funding, space, specialist staff etc etc. It could probably tackle it, as long as it chucked out all that old folk stuff and got rid of Malcolm Taylor, Peta Webb etc etc.
Great idea Schweik. Let's do it.

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 06:01 AM

my other point is that apart from london based singers, I am fairly sure that others are put off by the geographical location, I certainly am.
the alternative of driving through london[ that is not a pleasant experience] or an hours claustrophobic tube journey plus aten minute walk [london heathrow], is not appealing.
the midlands[imo] has much easier train connections and easier road connections and is the geographical centrE of England ,hence its name.

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jul 10 - 05:51 AM

I am entitled to an opinion, and my opinion which is based on experience of flying in and out of airports,is that transport connections to the Midlands are as good and in some cases better than they are to Camden town[ exception london heathrow].
It is as easy to get to the midlands from london gatwick, stansted london luton, AND birmingham, AND in some cases easier.
   the point is   that if it does not include contemporary songs it just becomes a museum, folk music is a living changing evolving music, it is not something that has to be preserved .
of course museums are necessary too, but should a library just be a museum piece?
it is not correct to suggest that I am suggesting it is filled with albums of contemporary songwriters cds.
including contemporary songs can be acheived in different ways other than including every singer songwriters cd.

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: Vic Smith
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 04:02 PM

3.should it include contemporary songs

This is perhaps the only section of the opening post which is worthy of sustained discussion.

I would be with Brian when he says nor would it be a very good use of limited space and money to fill the sound archive with singer-songwriter albums. I would add to this the fact that a great deal of contemporary song is of passing, transitory interest; much of it purposely so.

Consider - those who are old enough - the vast number of singer-songwriters who thronged into folk clubs during the boom years of the 1960s and 1970s and ask yourself What percentage of that huge output of songs has stood the test of time? In my opinion, the percentage is not very large and sometimes those who are now considered the better writers of that era were not the most popular at the time.

Now think about the collecting work that was being done by the likes of Keith Summers and Mike Yates during those same years and consider how interesting their work is now considered to be by those who have a sustained interest in the traditional cultural heritage of these islands.

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 03:32 PM

3.should it include contemporary songs[Brian informs me it does]?

Steve wrote:
"This one is a matter of opinion and is more difficult to answer. However it is an interesting question and should be asked. Perhaps this one should have a thread of its own."

I don't have a catalogue handy, but surely the VWML includes copies of 'Hard-Hitting Songs for Hard-Hit People', or 'My Song is My Own', or '100 Songs of Toil'? I wouldn't be surprised if they have Leon Rosselson or Keith Marsden songbooks there as well. However I'm not aware of an archive of modern folk songs analagous to Sharp or Gardiner's collections, nor would it be a very good use of limited space and money to fill the sound archive with singer-songwriter albums. IMO, of course.

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 03:20 PM

I am puzzled by this query. I live in Ireland, in Donegal. I am a member of EFDSS because it gives me copies of Folk Music Journal, English Dance and Song and privileged access to the Library when in London. As a member, I can have certain items sent to me via the postal services. I also have, as does anyone, access to Malcolm, Peta and Elaine by phone. I find this useful because the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library has a considerable archive of unique material which cannot be consulted anywhere else. London seems to me to be as good a place as any other, particularly with cheap(ish) flights.

However, The VWML does not hold as much Irish material as I have myself or anything like as much as the Irish Traditional Music Archive. Also Oidhreacht an Cláir in Miltown Malbay, the various National and University Libraries have vast resources of unique material concerning Irish music and its early and modern sources, as have individuals, like Len Graham and Seán Corcoran.

The sources are scattered and it is impracticable to bring them all together though ITMA is doing so in the form of surrogates. Digitization is not a complete answer to actually going to libraries, it's hugely expensive, very hit and miss (look at the appalling standard of much of Google and Microsoft's scans) and we have no idea how soon it will need to be done again because of changes in operating systems or system crashes.

Under these circumstances I think it's hardly fair to carp about the location of VWML at Cecil Sharp House in London but somewhat better to marvel that, though devoted work and inspired conservation, what is now a much under-regarded cultural treasure, is being preserved and made accessible at all. Thank the Chinese for paper and Heaven for the Malcolm Taylors of this world.

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 03:09 PM

1. how important is it to the 21 century folk revival.
2.how many other revival singers use it or find it useful
3.should it include contemporary songs[Brian informs me it does]

A1. Crucial is the first word that springs to mind. Where else is there such a comprehensive archive of English (and other) traditional song?

A2. Almost all of the revival singers I know, certainly all of the well-known English ones, have used the library's facilities, either directly by visiting or other forms of communication. For instance all of the Waterson-Carthy dynasty, The Copper Family, Shirley Collins, (no this is silly, hundreds if not thousands over the last 60 years.)

A3. This one is a matter of opinion and is more difficult to answer. However it is an interesting question and should be asked. Perhaps this one should have a thread of its own.

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 02:17 PM

No Dick - I don't owe you an apology - I apologised in advance if I had misread your intention, as my post makes quite clear. An impression is only an impression, and I can't help it if that's what comes across to me - rightly or wrongly - from the tenor of the posts.

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: Old Vermin
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 02:15 PM

I hope RVW would have appreciated the pleasant irony that the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library is in central(ish) London while Surrey County Council, as far as I know, still holds the performing arts library for the county along with some VW material at the Denbighs vineyard premises near the town of Dorking with which he was connected.

That said - and I can just read that sentence in one breath - the collection is of national importance for England and is kept in the capital of England. Probably more conveniently accessible to as many people as possible in England exactly where it already is.

Subject: RE: Vaughan Williams Memorial Library & its importance
From: Vic Smith
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 01:10 PM

yes Will fly, you do owe me an apology

Oh dear! I hope that this one does not run and run like a previous request for an apology from this poster.

Subject: RE: TheVWML and its importance
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 01:01 PM

Greg, Ballydehob would be great., BUT HARDLY APPROPRIATE, it is the EFDSS , NOT the irish fdss.
the midlands is the centre of the country and is the fairest foir every body.

Subject: RE: TheVWML and its importance
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 01:00 PM

Thank you, TheSnail.

Subject: RE: TheVWML and its importance
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 12:51 PM

The positioning of a base for the EFDSS is an interesting topic: but I cannot think it is a priority to ensure that it is conveniently accessible to people living in Ballydehob in Co Cork. Obviously locating it in Skibbereen or Bantry would have certain advantages, but I can't really see a consensus of C Sharp House people deciding to relocate there.
Personally, I like it being in London. Accessible by train from anywhere, and I quite like a trip to the Big Smoke now and again. And,in London, there are a lot of other things to do that you can't do in Crewe or Derby.

Subject: RE: TheVWML and its importance
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 12:24 PM

yes Will fly, you do owe me an apology, that is not my intent.yes you see for me coming from ireland,

Subject: RE: TheVWML and its importance
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 12:15 PM

I speak as an ex-librarian and (retired) who was involved in the business.

To clarify: in the business generally, and not at C# House specifically

Subject: RE: TheVWML and its importance
From: Will Fly
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 12:14 PM

Dick, I can't honestly see the point of this thread - particularly as you've expressed opinions on the location and other aspects of the EFDSS elsewhere.

It surely must be self-evident to anyone with a passing interest in the folk music world that the society is, as Brian Peters puts it, "indispensable". Digitising library collections as diverse and as large as that contained in C# House is an incredibly complex and time-consuming business, and I speak as an ex-librarian and (retired) who was involved in the business. To get where they've got to with the Take 6 Project has taken immense hard work, and more resources will undoubtedly come on-line in the future. Be patient.

I note that you say, in your original post, that you are just "posing a question, not attacking the EFDSS" but - when I put this thread together with your other one entitled "EFDSS: Advantages and disadvantages" - I get a distinct impression of niggling curmudgeonliness. Apologies if this is far from your intent, but it's what comes across to me.

Train time from Lancaster (say) to Euston - 3 hours these days. Driving time - around 5, excluding the London car charge and the potentially bloody awful traffic. As Manitas says, is there really a better location?

Subject: RE: TheVWML and its importance
From: GUEST,Trainspotter
Date: 20 Jul 10 - 12:09 PM

If Manitas is planning to walk from Marylebone, give him an hour and enjoy a pint in the Spread Eagle on Parkway.