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Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office

katlaughing 26 Jul 10 - 06:20 PM
Stilly River Sage 26 Jul 10 - 06:28 PM
katlaughing 26 Jul 10 - 06:34 PM
IvanB 26 Jul 10 - 07:36 PM
katlaughing 26 Jul 10 - 08:06 PM
IvanB 26 Jul 10 - 08:18 PM
IvanB 26 Jul 10 - 08:29 PM
Jim Dixon 26 Jul 10 - 08:50 PM
katlaughing 26 Jul 10 - 09:53 PM
treewind 27 Jul 10 - 02:22 AM
Howard Jones 27 Jul 10 - 03:23 AM
Arthur_itus 27 Jul 10 - 04:30 AM
JohnInKansas 27 Jul 10 - 04:59 AM
Greg F. 27 Jul 10 - 10:34 PM
katlaughing 27 Jul 10 - 11:53 PM
pavane 28 Jul 10 - 07:10 AM
katlaughing 05 Aug 10 - 05:11 PM
JohnInKansas 05 Aug 10 - 07:24 PM
The Fooles Troupe 05 Aug 10 - 07:46 PM
Nick 05 Aug 10 - 08:05 PM
JohnInKansas 05 Aug 10 - 09:51 PM
katlaughing 05 Aug 10 - 11:05 PM
GUEST,leeneia 05 Aug 10 - 11:53 PM
JohnInKansas 06 Aug 10 - 01:57 AM
Arthur_itus 06 Aug 10 - 02:30 AM
JohnInKansas 06 Aug 10 - 02:19 PM
Arthur_itus 06 Aug 10 - 02:26 PM
katlaughing 06 Aug 10 - 04:35 PM
Arthur_itus 06 Aug 10 - 04:40 PM
katlaughing 20 Apr 11 - 02:32 PM
Jim Dixon 20 Apr 11 - 03:22 PM
Arthur_itus 20 Apr 11 - 03:26 PM
katlaughing 20 Apr 11 - 03:32 PM
Arthur_itus 20 Apr 11 - 03:48 PM
Arthur_itus 20 Apr 11 - 04:02 PM
GUEST,mg 20 Apr 11 - 04:07 PM
Arthur_itus 20 Apr 11 - 04:14 PM
Arthur_itus 20 Apr 11 - 04:17 PM
Arthur_itus 20 Apr 11 - 04:19 PM
JohnInKansas 20 Apr 11 - 07:06 PM
katlaughing 20 Apr 11 - 07:46 PM
JohnInKansas 20 Apr 11 - 10:44 PM
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pavane 21 Apr 11 - 07:53 AM
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pavane 21 Apr 11 - 08:20 AM
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Subject: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 06:20 PM

Is there anyone who can tell me, in a simple fashion, how the heck to get a header AND page number on every page of a mss. in Word or Open Office? I used to have no trouble doing so, before they dumbed down Word with pictures instead of easy to find instructions. I have figured out how to put in page numbers and a header, but one cancels out the other and/OR they do not appear on every page. I finally had page numbers on every page but the first, which is okay, but when I added a header, it only showed on the first page of "section 1" and "section 2" despite my choosing a header for all pages. And, as I said, the header inserted wiped out the page numbers. It is most frustrating. I tried Open Office to see if it was easier to understand, but when I called up "Header" it had a long list of "convert" with numbers and no explanation of what they mean except when you click on one it warns the text will be lost! What text! I haven't even typed in header text yet when it says that. I hate the newer versions of Word!

Thanks in advance!

katfuming&tryingtogetanmssready!


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 06:28 PM

What version are you using? In Word 2007 you simply mouse over and click on that top part of the page and it opens a header or footer dialog. Also, I see if you go to "Insert" and then to "Header or Footer" it gives you a series of options and at the bottom of the options it allows you to edit. Is this what you're looking at? If you're using an earlier version, I used to do it all of the time there, and get the results you're asking for. But I'll have to think a little about how I did it. There was a dialog box that gave you various options to add to what you wanted in the header/footer.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 06:34 PM

Sorry, yes, I am using Word 2007. I don't want to have to type the same header in for each page; it's almost 200 pages. When I do get a header placed, the next page has a bluebox which says "same as previous" but when I click on it nothing happens AND when I do a Print Preview there are no headers in view except the first couple which I had inserted.

Yes, I go to Insert > Header > then choose the blank one, type in the text and it appears on that page, but it also wipes out the Page Number which I had inserted, previously.

Thanks!


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: IvanB
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 07:36 PM

In Open Office, go to Format/Page/Header to assign attributes to the header. Your description implies that you'd want to check "Header On" and "Same Content Left and Right" but there are other attributes you can set as well. When you are finished and click on "OK" your blank page will have a rectangle at the top for filling in your header text.
Assuming you'd like your page number in the header, tab or space to where you'd like the number, then click on Insert/Field/Page Number. The page number will appear in the header and the header and page number will repeat on subsequent pages.

BTW, I'm using OO version 3.2.0, but I don't think this procedure has changed lately.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 08:06 PM

Thanks, Ivan, but I cannot find "Header On." My version says it is 3.2, so probably the same. I did find Field and was able to get one header and one page number, but nothing on the other pages. I also couldn't find "same content left and right." Maybe because I am trying it in an already established text doc? I sure hope I don't have to start from plain text scratch to get a header and page numbers.

Thanks, to both of you. I feel like a dolt.:-)


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: IvanB
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 08:18 PM

Kat, when you click on "format" then "page" do you get a page formatting box with numerous tabs? If so, one of those tabs should be "Header." Click on that to open the header attributes box. There should be a click-box in the upper left corner with the legend "Header on." Until you click on that box, everything else on the page is grayed out.

The reason for putting the page number field in the header or footer is that otherwise it would be treated as document text and would move around as text was inserted or deleted.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: IvanB
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 08:29 PM

Well, even easier, I found that if have the cursor at the beginning of my document, whether there is text in it or not, I can click on Insert then Header and start my header that way. It seems to default to every page.

Are you by chance using a template that has its own formatting attributes?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 08:50 PM

No need to reinvent the wheel here. Microsoft has already written lots of helpful how-to articles.

http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/word-help/insert-headers-and-footers-HP001226486.aspx


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 09:53 PM

Yeah, Jim, thanks, but those instructions are as bad as the ones I found when I was trying this on my own. I was looking for simple and MS does not do simple!:-) I will, however, see if I can make some sense of them, tomorrow or later this week one afternoon when the grandson has gone home.

Ivan, I will most definitely try OO, again. It could be it is *seeing* some formatting from Word which shouldn't be there, imo. I have a terrible feeling I shall have to start from scratch with text only and build it from there. Rats!

Thanks, folks. My brain and eyes are too worn out for any more attempts, tonight.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: treewind
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 02:22 AM

The secret with OO headers and footers is to get used to the idea of page styles. Every page is associated with a page style, and it's the page style that defines what's in the header and footer. There are ready-made page styles for "first page", "table of contents", "default" and a couple of others (I think) but you can add more if you need them and you can edit the content of each style separately.

"It could be it is *seeing* some formatting from Word which shouldn't be there"
Importing MS Word docs into OO tends to create a rather messy mix of formatting and style information, because the two systems are structured so differently. OK for tweaking for a quick print of a few pages, but a complex document is best created in the same program you're going to use for editing it later.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: Howard Jones
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 03:23 AM

The really annoying thing about MS Office is that they've added so many bells and whistles so it can do virtually anything you might want, but as a result doing the simple things which most of the users want most of the time has become very complicated.

One of my pet hates is when MS Word decides it knows better than me how I want to format my text and realigns my indented text for me. I then have to spend ages fiddling with rulers to get it back how I wanted it. Grr!

As for Microsoft's "helpful how-to articles", I'm glad I'm not alone in finding them confusing and unhelpful. At least they've got rid of that bloody paperclip - I once told it to "F*** off and leave me alone" - and it did!


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 04:30 AM

Kat
I have 2007

Try this as a test

Open a blank document

Hold the CTRL key down and press the Enter key twice to create three pages

Move you mouse pointer to the top left corner of the first page and Double click with the left mouse button

The header section should appear (notice that the Header Footer Tools Design Ribbon appears at the top)

At the cursor, type your name

Press the tab key once

Place your mouse pointer on the Date & Time button on the ribbon and click once. Select a suitable date and click once with the left mouse button.

Press the tab key once

Place your mouse pointer on the Page Number button on the ribbon and click once.

Move your mouse pointer over the menu "Current Position"

From the drop down menu, point and click on one of the page options.

Move the mouse pointer to the main body of the document and double click.

Scroll down and see if you have the page number etc on each page.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 04:59 AM

Kat -

Obviously you don't recognize the enormous improvement made in Word 2007. There are only about 70 to 90 icons in each of the 6 to 8 top menus, and a bright person like you should have no problems finding the one you want, even if they did change the names for them all.

The trick with headers, if you want the same header across multiple sections is to put the header in before you make any section breaks. This is supposed to give you a default for the subsequent sections to have header (and/or footer) "Same as Previous" except that now it's called "Link to Previous" since that's so much more informative and descriptive.

If you start in the first section of the document and double click on the header area it should open the appropriate menu, which is on the "Design" tab and the "Header Footer" popup button since that's so much more "intuitive" than the old "Page Layout."

You should see a box where you can go "next section" or "previous section" or switch between header and footer. If you click to "next section" and then click the "Link to Previous" it should make both sections have the same header. If you have multiple sections and the headers are different, you may have to step through the sections one at a time and link each one back to the preceding one.

Note that you should be able to just double-click back to the body of the page to get out of the header/footer "design" menu as in older Word versions, but often that doesn't seem to want to work, so you may have to actually click on the "close header/footer box," which of course is a button that is NOT IN THE USEFUL PART OF THE HEADER FOOTER BOX area on this "ribbon" ("ribbon" is so very much clearer than saying menu) but is at the far right of the "ribbon," which in this case is actually a "Box."

They were considerate enough to make the "close" button glaring red (in my color setup) so that it would immediately attract your attention and distract you from finding the tools you'll mostly want first; but that's just because they know more than you do about what's "efficient."

You should be able to just type the header you want in the first section and then "link to previous" in all the subsequent ones to get them all the same. Note that you may have to link all the headers and then separately link all the footers.

Note that when you link to previous when the two headers are different, both headers are supposed to become the same as the original first one, but for some unknown reason, even in older (useful) versions of Word, sometimes they both became same as the later one. Check what happens and start over at the beginning (or end) section as necessary if this happens.

It's claimed that you can use tabs and carriage returns (Enter), and even text boxes and frames, etc., in the headers or footers to separate the page number from the header/footer text or to include logos/icons etc.

There are options to make the headers/footers different for odd/even pages, or to have it change with outline title/subtitle changes in the body text, and this may be why you see changes in the page number format (invisible is a format) but those settings must be elsewhere - perhaps in Page Layout (which is no longer really page layout) or in some other place where they've moved it for your convenience.

For simple page numbering I've found it more reliable to insert a "Page" Field (or a "Seq") rather than using the "Page Number" clicky they've built in, but it's rather obscure where the "convenient" place for doing that has been moved. (The automatic page numbers clicky does have some pretty uses, but generally not for me.)

Should you have an interest in using Fields, Alt-I, F (for Insert Field) still seems to open the list of fields. Click on Page for the Field type and then hit the "Options" button to choose format if necessary. (The field dialog box appears to be something they forgot to remove, despite it being quite handy and therefor something that should have gone away; although they did manage to hide it pretty effectively if you don't remember the shortcut.)

John


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 10:34 PM

Dump Word 2007 which is virtually useless for ordinary work & get & install a copy of Word 2000, which will do anything a normal person could want. Should be plenty of Word 200 discs around real cheap.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 11:53 PM

Not a bad idea, Greg! Folks, I probably won't have enough gray cells or energy to get into this until the weekend. Thanks so much for your help. I am glad, double glad as my dad would say, that I a not the only one who cannot stand the convoluted claptrap of MS2007.

I have had a kind offer of a walk-me-through-it via phone via PM and look forward to figuring this out, though, as Greg says, I may just go find an older version, too.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: pavane
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 07:10 AM

I know that when I made a change, Word (2003) lost all the "same as previous" items without warning, and I had to work through the document (FORWARDS only, backwards didn't do it) reinstating them all.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 05:11 PM

Arthur_itus,

Thank you! I finally had time to print out your instructions and try them out. Once I'd done the blank document, I went into my novel file and, while it took doing it individually to the first three pages (different sections, I guess), once I did the third page, all others followed suit, so I now have it formatted correctly and ready to send out. Thank you!

Thanks to all of you for your help and sharing of fellow agony over MS Word 7 which must stand for MiSconstrue as much as possible!

This has been nagging at me for a couple of months, so it is a HUGE relief to get it figured out and done!


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 07:24 PM

Pedant Point:

"Word 7" is the new, possibly still in beta or just out, replacement for Word 2010, which replaced Word 2007, which replaced all previus (useful) versions. A "Word 10," not the same as Word 2010, also appears to be coming(?) to replace Word 7.

Elsewise:

The suggestion of getting an older version instead of Word 2007 or later, is not without some risk.

Since everything prior to Word 2007 is "out of support" there is no effort to confirm that changes made by patches for the OS are compatible with them. My Word 2003 began to erratically "fail to perform" correctly about five years ago, apparently because WinXP patches blocked functions that it used. Office 2007 was the only thing I could get then for a supported replacement.

Office 2000, including Word 2000, appears to have been the "last supported" usable version, so it likely would have the best prospects for remaining functional for a while. It remained supported for a while longer than others since Windows 2000, for which it was "designed" (a euphemism for Microsoft recent development?), was based directly on NT that a lot of businesses used for it's "advanced" network capabilities, and many business users were reluctant to drop NT/Win2000 for newer OS versions.

Word 2002 (on LiK's WinXP) seemed to work reasonably well for quite a while after my Word 2003 quit; but I can't say how functional it would be now since she blew her machine and it looked easier to move her to Vista/Word 2007 at the time. It might be worth a try if you can find a really cheap copy.

John


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 07:46 PM

I've just needed to get a new machine - the Win98 box is getting rather old - went for an AMD V120 laptop - sadly I had to take Win 7 - have already deleted "ORIFICE"...

But I haven't yet stopped ranting and screaming at the 'unhelp' functions - "Contact a friend" hahahahaha!


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: Nick
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 08:05 PM

Open document

Insert - Header

Click on page number

Put stuff in header

That's it...

Trying to work out what bit of that isn't working!

The way to cock it up is to insert a section break or have different first page or to have a document with different first and subsequent pages which you then try to make work right without adding a section break. If you show the fields and sections with ¶ then it might make it clearer where your problem lies


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 09:51 PM

sadly I had to take Win 7

When Win 7 was still in beta, the Microsoft advertisements were entrhusiastically declaring -

"IT'S NOT VISTA!!!!"

Some reviews have said that the claim is true, which is encouraging. They don't, however, say what it is instead.

Unfortunately it's been about a year since a US "computer magazine" has said anything useful about a computer, because of the buzz on iPod, HDTV,and "social networking" et. al.; so it's hard to tell if any of the reviewers still know how to do anything useful with a computer.

John


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 11:05 PM

Thanks for the clarification, JohninKS. I have Word 2007.

Nick, I think it was that I had two different sections, which I could see, but when I followed the logical steps (as you have pointed out), prior to starting this thread, it didn't work for me. Thankfully, I figured out the other way...there is a difference between choosing Insert Header etc. from the way Arthur-itus posted.

Regardless, I am glad it's working now and I hope to keep in practice so I don't forget how. At the least, I have a trace on this thread for future reference.:-)

kat


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 11:53 PM

I just want to make an observation here.

My husband wanted to have Word at home because he is familiar with it at work. The other day I was trying to use it and found myself frustrated. (surprise, surprise)

I took a deep breath, stopped the project, and counted all the icons I could see. There are 79 wee pictures, many of them obscure in meaning, on the Word page.

I think that's absolutely ridiculous.

Fortunately, my life is simple enough that I can do most things using WordPad.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 01:57 AM

leenia -

It would appear that, if you found only 79 icons in Word 2007, you only looked at the first of the SEVEN "tabs" on the top toolbar.

With few exceptions, doing anything of ordinary complexity using the toolbars nearly always requires using more than one tab, and for many of the options there are "special super-tabs" that "rise up" from the box you select - to give you additional "picks."

The options you get if you click on something on one of the toolbar's 7 tabs (a total of around 650 choices of "groups of cutesies") are the choices that Microsoft's favorite cocktail waitress thought were important, so doing anything useful in things done by "real people" usually means dropping to the bottom of the "drop down samples of really cutesy stuff" and clicking the "Other Choices" or "More Options" that you sometimes find there, in order to find an "almost useful" piece of a real menu.

John


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 02:30 AM

Kat

Glad that worked.

It's always useful to use a simple example, to try and understand what you may or may not be doing right or wrong, and then apply that knowledge to your project.

Too often people try to sort the issue out with their original document and invariably mess it up further and get more confused.

One thing that might help in trying to stop Word completely taking over in 2007, is to know where you can turn things off and on.

If you click on the Office Button (Top left corner of word. it is a big circular object, just to the left of the Home tab ribbon), you should get a menu list.

If you look at the bottom right of that list, you should see an option called "Word Options". Click on that.

You should see a list of menu's and whichever menu choice you select, you will see a set of options on the right hand side, that you can use to make Word do, what you want to do.

Once you have changed an option, it remains in force for all documents, until you change it again.

Probably the most useful menu choice there, would be Advanced as that allows you to turn off most of stupid things that Word thinks you want, but don't.

Take time to have a look through all the menu's and you will probably be able to change a lot of automatic features, that are frustrating you.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 02:19 PM

Unlike previous versions, Word 2007 does not allow you to do much with the fixed menu with its 7 tabs and 70 to 90 unintelligible cute things to at each tab.

It does allow you to show a "Quick Access Toolbar," that you can place either above or below the main menus.

Arthur itis refers to the "Office Button." Only Microsoft calls it that. PC-inhibited users frequently call it "the Pizza" but those of us who are more realistically inclined call it by what it looks like - the "Cow Splat."

The most useful change I've found is to add a few of the commands you're most likely to use often to the Quick Access Toolbar.

At "Cow-Splat" - Windows Options - Customize you'll find a list of commands that you can "Add" or "Remove" on the Quick Access toolbar. There's a drop-down window there, where you can choose a variety of lists of commands.

With a suitable selection of commands on that toolbar, you can mostly ignore the trash in the fixed menus for routine work. I have a "New Document" tailored to use a specific document template, a "Save" button, Spell Check, Undo and Redo, and a "Paragraph Format" that goes directly to a bottom level menu that takes about 7 clicks to reach from the main menus.

Once the Quick Access toolbar is up, there's a "fuzzy arrow" at the end of the bar that opens a drop-down menu where you also can "edit" the bar, to avoid sticking your finger in the cow splat.

You can also right-click on any icon on the main menus and you should see an option to "Add to Quick Access Toolbar. In some cases you can "drill down" from the top level menus to something that's useful, and add the lower level menu to the Quick Access bar, so that you can go directly to that menu with one click and don't have to hunt for it each time you want it.

John


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 02:26 PM

mooooooooo :-)


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 04:35 PM

Thanks, you two! I shall explore and do many new and brave things with that confounded, convoluted, cur-sed calamity called Word 2007.:-)


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 04:40 PM

LOL Go for it Kat. It's not that bad when you know how to control Microsoft :-)


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 02:32 PM

After a long time away, I am back at this with another document, a novel. I had two sets of numbers on it. Finally got rid of them, but, for the life of me, I cannot get it to just put page numbers on all pages save the Prologue. I know how to designate nothing on the First Page, but the rest are not working. I did a blank docu as before, Authur-itis and that worked like a champ, but when I tried to do the same in my doc, no good. This is the only thing holding me up in sending this novel to press! ARRRggghhh!

JohninKS, I tried yours, too, but there is no Link to Previous just Same as Previous and when I click on it nothing happens.

Some authors at Create Space on Amazon are saying they had to do this page by page! I cannot imagine anything so stupid and tedious.

Any simple suggestions/steps to take greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

kat


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 03:22 PM

Well, a quick and dirty way to do this would be to save your preface and the rest of your book as two separate documents.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 03:26 PM

Have you got a section break between your first page and the rest?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 03:32 PM

I don't have a problem designating the first page, i.e. the Prologue, to be numberless. And, yes, Jim, I've thought of that.:-)

What I am having a problem doing is getting numbers in the rest of the document.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 03:48 PM

Yes but Kat you need probably to create a section break afeter the first page and then start you numbering on the new section.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 04:02 PM

When you have created the section break, go into section 2.
Click on Insert, Footer, Page number, Format Page Numbers..., Click on Start at and type a 1 into the box to the right and click on OK.

Ypou should then get the page numbering starting with 1 on section 2.


You cannot do this if you do not create sections


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 04:07 PM

I have not read the whole thread here but it is defintiely probably a section break problem. The whole page numbering system in Word can be awful to use. mg


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 04:14 PM

Not if you understand section breaks mg. As you say, it's deffo a section break issue.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 04:17 PM

A page break will not allow you to decide when the page numbering starts. That's what sections are for. Each section is considered as being independant from any other section. So you can do exactly what you want within each section and it doesn't affect any other sections.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 04:19 PM

As an example you could have one section printing in Portrait and the next section in Landscape and so on and so forth.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 07:06 PM

As a starting point in Word (2007 and later, as well reasonably similar in most earlier versions) you need to set up the page layout.

In Word 2007, Word usually opens with the "General" tab selected. The second tab to the right of that one should be "Page Layout."

On the Page Layout tab, you need to click on "Margins" and then at the bottom click on "Custom Margins." This should show you an actual Menu showing "Page Setup" as the name of the menu, and looking a little bit like what was in older versions.

To be able to control headers/footers, you first need to go to the "Layout" tab on the "Page Setup" menu.

There will be a box for "Section Start" that will probably say "New Page." It doesn't make too much difference what that box says, since you can "format" sections breaks as you insert them to make them "continuous" or "new page."

A section (panel) below that shows "Headers and footers." You can choose "Different Odd and Even" and/or "Different First Page."

If NONE OF THE HEADER FOOTER BOXES IS CHECKED, whatever you put in any header that opens should appear on all pages of the document. Same for footers, one footer all pages.

If the box for "Different Odd and Even" is checked, you will have to create an "odd page header" (and footer) and separately create an "even page header" (and footer). These two (odd page & even page) may be in addition to the separate "first page" header if that box was also checked.

Navigation in headers/footers can get rather complicated if you have checked any of these boxes. The "Different First Page" usually will assume that the first page of each new section that starts on a new page should have a "first page header/footer," so if you click to go to "next header" while in a "first page header" it should go to the next page it thinks needs a "first page header." Clicking "Same as Previous" should make "this first page header/footer" same as the previous first page header, but I've found that to be somewhat erratic.

If you are in an "odd page header/footer" when you click "Next" or "Previous" you should go to the next odd page header, rather than to the header on the next page. This behavior also seems somewhat erratic.

When you click into a header or footer, the Word 2007 Menu Bar should open the "Design Tab," showing the "Different First Page" and "Different Odd and Even" selections, but not obviously including the option whether a change you make is to apply to "entire document" or "this page forward." Due to ambiguity about how what you click will be applied from this menu, it seems that you would always need to verify which way a change will go, but evidently Microsoft doesn't think you should care.

In general, the Word 2007 "iconization" is so ambiguous that I just use shortcut keystrokes for most of what I want, so I haven't really explored how to use the "idiot boards" for much, or the indecipherable consequences of doing so; but it would appear that much of the difficulty previously described in this thread can be resolved by careful attention to how the page breaks and headers/footers are set up and managed in the Word version in use.

For "troubleshooting" I can suggest using the "F5" key, that should get you a "Go To" menu. You can choose "Go To Section" and click "Next" repeatedly to flip through the sections to see what's happening. (A header/footer change within a document can only be applied at a Section change.) Then you only need to figure out why it's doing something unrelated to what you intended.

John


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 07:46 PM

I had the prologue in section one and the rest of it in section two, but, as I said, the number only showed up on the first page of section two. Other writers have said they had to do the section thing page by page.

John, thanks, I"ll try that all tomorrow morning. Once again my brain is half-fried.:-)

THANKS, ALL!


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 10:44 PM

If the number only showed up on page one of a section, it's likely that the "Different First Page" setting was checked. With that selection, the header for the first page of the section had the number, but the separate header(s) for "the rest of the pages" didn't have a number.

In a "worst case" layout, it's necessary to have a "first page header/footer," an "odd page header/footer," and an "even page header/footer," each of which is a separate and independent setup.

There has been some variation among the Word versions, but since "Word 3.5 for DOS" (when I first started learning the tricks) some versions haven't clearly identified which header you're editing when you open one of them. (The ident is usually there, but not necessarily obvious.)

John


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 02:37 AM

I agree with you John.

Normally if you are going to write a book or such things, then spending the time up front to develope your basic requirements for that project can be critical. If a person has the knowledge, they would create a template which would control font styles, headers & footers, bullet points etc etc.

Once it has been tested, you can the save it as a template and use that template for future projects that fit.

Most people tend to type their project and make the changes on the fly, which can and does create issues.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: pavane
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 07:53 AM

Just a note that I have been working on a major project (a critical biography) using WORD 2003, and have encountered many of these problems - the publishers are most insistent on having everything to their own specification, especially page numbering.

But as well as this, I have written a number of macros to help me ensure there are as few errors as possible, and to assist with the compiling of a proper index. One example is a check for duplicated words - some are valid, but I found several instances of sequences like "the the". OK, grammar check will often pick them up, but only one at a time, in amongst all the other grammar checks.

One useful macro was to check for repeated sequences of a predefined length - 5 words was useful - this showed places where I had either copied and pasted (in error), or used the same phrase in two places, showing lack of imagination.

Another macro reports on unmatched ( and ), and also [ ] and { } of course.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 08:15 AM

Once again, macro's are great as long as you know how to write them, as they can get pretty involved.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: pavane
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 08:20 AM

Quite right! VBA program is a better name, and need a programmer to write.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 12:22 PM

Which means, don't go there unless you are a computer anorak. :-)
Am I allowed to say that these days?


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 12:45 PM

Okay, I have made some progress. I now have numbers on every page, including the Prologue. When I delete that one, they all disappear. I have watched videos and read more tutorials on how to make the different sections, but so far have not figured it out.

On the Prologue page it reads Fist Page Header Section 1. On the next page, the first chapter page, it reads First Page Header Section 2. I thought that meant what I put on the first chapter page would not be included on the prologue page. I know there is a place to tick not to number the first page, but danged if I can find it now.

Taking a break for now.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 03:42 PM

. I know there is a place to tick not to number the first page, but danged if I can find it now.

If you set the option for "Different First Page" you must create a separate "First Page Header/Footer." If you don't put a page number there, the page won't display one. Even if you don't want anything in the "First Page Header" there must be a separate (blank) header/footer on a specific "First Page Header/Footer" to "push the page," so that the "Header/Footer for the rest of the pages" begins at the next page.

If you set the option for "Different Odd and Even Pages" you also must have an "Odd Pages Header/Footer" and an "Even Pages Header/Footer."

The most common reason for using the "Different Odd and Even Pages" setting is if your document will be printed two-sided and bound as a book. The left margin on Odd pages and the right margin on even pages (for the preferred numbering) is made wider to allow for the stitching/staples/glue when the pages are bound together, and some prefer that the page numbers be "mirrored" so that they're at the "outside margin." If you don't need it, don't use it.

In Word 2007, the best place to get to the page options is, as above, on the "Page Layout" Tab on the top menu bar. IGNORE all the kiddie icons and click "Margins," and then "Custom Margins" at the bottom. You can also get to similar settings by double-clicking into a header or footer and selecting the "Header and Footer Tools" supertab that pops up when you're "in" a header or footer (see below).

From the Page Layout Tab, Click Margins, Click Cusotm Margins, Click the Layout tab. (This menu is somewhat similar to the menu in prior versions, and is a little more "intelligible" than other "new and improved" places to make/change the settings.)

If you don't have either of the layout options checked, you can only use a single header, the same for all pages (in the current section) so you'll see a blank header. If one or more of the options is set, when you "click into" a header or footer you should see a little "flag" in the left margin that tells you whether you're in a "First Page Header" or "Odd Page Header" or "Even Page Header."

(It appears that there must be at least three pages in the section for you to see all three of the header/footer forms.)

In Word 2007 & later, with a header or footer "opened" by double-clicking in one you should find a "supertab" in the top menu bar above the "Design" tab. You need to click on that "Header and Footer Tools" tab to get to a whole new toolbar that lets you switch to next/previous, between header/footer, link to previous, and even a real button to Close Header/Footer.

"Link to Previous" in the "Navigation Pane" on this new toolbar has exactly the same meaning as "Same as Previous" in earlier Word versions. The other two, "Next Section" and "Previous Section" just move you to the nearest section breaks where the header/footer might change.

You can change the page layout, and all of your header settings at any "Insert Section Break New Page." On the "Header and Footer Tools" tab above, it appears to imply that if you don't click Link to Previous changes apply only "from this point forward." The "other menu" at Page Layout | Margins | Custom Margins | Layout allows you t explicitly specify "Applies to Whole Document" or "Applies This Point Forward."

Inserting a "Section Break Continuous," as is done when you highlight a section of text and apply "Multiple Columns" to that text, should not affect your header/footer setup. (I've found some apparent impact in a couple of documents, but I don't yet know whether there's some other reason for it.)

To leave a first page unnumbered, you could use the "kiddie method" of making a header/footer without a page number for the first page, inserting a "Section Break New Page" to start the second page and creating a separate header for the rest of the pages; but that usually results in more problems than it solves.

The conventional, and preferred, method is to set "Different First Page," and create a "First Page header/footer" without a page number, and a separate header footer for "all except first page." A "first page" for a Section, as for the beginning of a chapter, usually needs more changes than just dropping the page number, since the chapter title is already there on the page, and needs to be displayed in header on the other pages.

John


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 04:01 PM

Previous post was for me to figure it all out.

Simple method for Word 2007.

On the first page, double click the header or footer.

Look for the "supertab" above the Design tab on the top tool bar, labelled "Header & Footer Tools." Click that tab.

In the fourth panel of the new toolbar, at "Options" put a check in "Different First Page." I prefer to keep the "Show Document Text" also checked, but that's optional.

A flag in the left margin should change from "header" to "first page header." (or footer)

Put what you want to show on the first page header and footer in the header and/or footer.

Click the "Next Section" button in the "Navigation" pane of the top toolbar.

The flag in the left margin should change to just "header" (or footer).

Type what you want to appear on all the pages except the first one.

Close the header/footer by double clicking back on the document body, or using the "Close Header and Footer" button at the far right end of the toolbar.

Repeat, starting on the first page of each "new page" Section break if you want different sections to have different headers/footers, or you can use the "Next Section" and "Previous Section" buttons in the Header and Footer Tools toolbar to skip through the document to verify that everythings the way you want it.

John


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 04:25 PM

OK Kat. I am going to do a step by step approach, creating a new document and setting up 2 sections and stopping the first page having a page number but the second will start at page 1. I will be using the toolbars so it's important that you do it step by step and make sure you find the correct option on the toolbar.

Remember, I don't work for Microsoft and am not going to comment on how difficult they make it. I am only interested in you having a step by step approach. I recommend when you have managed it once, you do it another five times until you fully understand how it works. At that point you should be able to apply it to your document.

It should only take you a couple of minutes to do each document and if you have done it correctly, delete that document and do it again and again. OK

1. Create a new document
2. Click on the Page Layout Ribbon on the toolbar
3. Look for the Breaks option and when you have found it, click on the drop down icon.
4. You should get a list of options. Notice the group of options for section break. Click on the one that says Next Page.
5. You should now be in page 2.
6. Look for the ribbon menu that says Insert and click on it.
7. Find the footer option and click on the drop down icon.
8. Look for the menu that says Edit Footer... and click on it.
9. Look for the icon that says Link To Previous and click on it. That will disconnect section 1 & 2.
10 On the same ribbon look for the icon for Page Number and click on it.
11. From the list click on Current Position > and click on Plain Number. You should see 2 appear in the footer.
12. We are now going to tell Word that we want to start with 1. We have already told Word that the previous section should not be linked.
13. Click on the Page Number icon and select the menu choice that says Format Page Numbers...
14. In the dialogue box, look at the section that says Page Numbering.
15. Click on the radio button for for Start At. You should see a 1 appear to the right.
16. Click on OK.

If you now look at the 2 pages you should find that the first page does not have a number in the footer and page 2 should start with 1.

Copy and paste these instruction into Word and save it so that you can open it whenever you have forgotten how to do it.

Now it's time to use that new knowledge on your document.

As I said, don't blame me for Microsoft, all I am trying to do is help you.

I hope that helps in the learning curve :-) and best wishes.
Les


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 04:27 PM

John I have seen what you posted, but I think Kat should use my step by step approach to understand how it all works from start to finish.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 08:05 PM

Arthur itus:

I don't think you can do it much simpler than my second post (04:01 PM) - which you may have cross-posted with; but the best way to get it done depends on how your brain wraps around the thing.

Your method is what I called the "kiddie method" at the bottom of the preceding post at 03:42 PM. You're creating a first page without a header/footer, and adding a new header/footer for the next section begining on page 2. This works in simple documents, but using the "Different First Page" setting makes it actually much easier to control page number re-starts and continuations if the document gets into additional multiple sections like preface, chapters, appendices, index, postscripts, etc. (Her document already has multiple sections since she indicated a Prologue.) With your method, if she edits the first page so that it runs into a page two, she may have to start from scratch to repaginate the entire document. Using the "Different First Page" option lets the document take care of it automatically.

The scary part of tech support is figuring out what kind of loose nut is in front of the keyboard. We'll have to wait for kat to choose what she finds most comfortable - but I doubt we'll know all that much about how she's processing the info even if she tells us what worked. (No offense, kat. We all think differently.)

Next she'll want to know how to put "Page xxx of yyy" in the footers like the big boys & girls do in techy documents. (Note: It's probably a trick question.)

John


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 04:06 AM

John I think it is important to try things out on a blank document first, before trying it on the real thing. I hadn't seen your post of 4:01 for some reason. However I did what you said and it didn't work. Got the same problem.

So, I am going to suggest that Kat tries this with a new document first and then apply that logic to her document(s). It requires opening a new document and creating 4 sections and then going through how to change the numbering for each section. Once Kat has that procedure in place she can then try the same on her document. So here goes.

1. Create a new document
2. Click on the Page Layout Ribbon on the toolbar
3. Look for the Breaks option and when you have found it, click on the drop down icon.
4. You should get a list of options. Notice the group of options for section break. Click on the one that says Next Page.
5. You should now be in page 2.

Repeat steps 2 to 5 two more times, so that you have 4 sections in the document.

Now do the following. Go to section 2 and click in the header section at the top of that page.

6. Look for the ribbon menu that says Insert and click on it.
7. Find the footer option and click on the drop down icon.
8. Look for the menu that says Edit Footer... and click on it.
9. Look for the icon that says Link To Previous and click on it. That will disconnect section 1 & 2. Now click in the footer of section.
10 On the same ribbon look for the icon for Page Number and click on it.
11. From the list click on Current Position > and click on Plain Number. You should see 2 appear in the footer.
12. We are now going to tell Word that we want to start with 1. We have already told Word that the previous section should not be linked.
13. Click on the Page Number icon and select the menu choice that says Format Page Numbers...
14. In the dialogue box, look at the section that says Page Numbering.
15. Click on the radio button for for Start At. You should see a 1 appear to the right.
16. Click on OK.


Now click in the header of section 3 and then click on the Link to Previous button and then click in the footer of that section.
Repeat steps 10 to 16

Now click in the header of section 4 and then click on the Link to Previous button and then click in the footer of that section.
Repeat steps 10 to 16

Each section is now totally seperate.

You should then be able to apply that logic to your real document.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 06:46 AM

Are you sure you're using Word 2007 or later? Earlier versions were a little different.

Open Word

Ctl-N opens a new blank document, omit if not needed.

Enter, Ctl-Enter inserts one paragraph and a page break.

Enter, Ctl-Enter inserts one paragraph and a page break.

You now have three pages.

(The first "Enter" keys in each line were to make sure that there's at least one full paragraph on each page, to make it easier to begin text insertion on the pages.)

Ctl-Home to return to first page.

Double Click in the Footer on the first page

Click "Header & Footer Tools" supertab on the top menu bar.

Put check marks in "Different First Page" and "Different Odd and Even Pages in the "Options" panel of the Headers and Footers toolbar to suit what you want the document to look like.

The flag in the left margin will show "First Page Footer" if you have clicked "Different First Page"

Ctl-E, Alt-I, F, P Enter Puts a page number in the center of the footer. Omit this line if you want the first page unnumbered

In the Header and Footer Tools toolbar at the top, in the Navigation Pane, click "Next Section"

The flag in the left margin will show "Even Page Footer" if you checked Different Odd and Even Pages, or just "Footer" if you left it unchecked.

Ctl-E, Alt-I, F, P Enter Puts a page number in the center of the footer.

If you checked "Different Odd and Even Pages," in the Headers and Footers Tools toolbar, Navigation Pane, click "Next Section"

The flag in the left margin will show "Odd Page Footer."

Ctl-E, Alt-I, F, P Enter Puts a page number in the center of the footer.

Use the button at the right of the toolbar to "Close Header and Footer" or double click back in the body of the document.

When you exit the header/footer edit mode, you may be returned to the page where you started your header/footer setup, or to the page you were on when you clicked out.

Ctl-End to go to the end of your three page document.

"Enter, Ctl-Enter" a few times to add pages and check that they're numbered as expected.

If you use the "quick keys" as shown, they haven't changed since Word was a DOS program. Only the place(s) where you select for different first page and different odd & even pages has changed. In Word 2007 I find at least 4 fairly easy places to do it, and a couple even better concealed, but it doesn't make much difference if you find it easier to do it in a different place.

I've used Insert - Field - Page Field for the page numbers, as I find the "Field" method a little more versatile and - for me - easier to control, but you can substitue any of the other methods of adding page numbers splattered around in the Word 2007 toolbars, menus, submenues, tabs, supertabs, etc. (By inserting a Page field, the insertion point is wherever the cursor is, rather than at some pre-fixed location that some Microserf hallucinated would always be the perfect place for it.)

Replace Ctl-E (center justified) with Ctl-L (left justified) or with Ctl-R (right justified) if you don't want the page numbers centered but dont' want to be fancy and set tabs to locate them.

When you get to chapter 2, and if you want the first page of the chapter unnumbered, you'll need to insert a "Section Break - Next Page" (Alt-I, B, N, Enter) to permit a change in the "first page (of the section) header," and you'll probably have to reset the "Different First Page" etc for the new section.

John


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 07:29 AM

John
Of course I am using 2007. However, I am trying to show how it can be done step by step as though you were doing it for the first time (I know Kat is above that level). Shortcuts are fine if you actually know how to do it (I do), but when trying to explain a process I never introduce shortcuts. By sticking to one way of doing it helps the user to understand some key elements needed.

I am sure Kat will be able to introduce her own ways of doing it, but at this point she is unable to do work out the correct steps.
So as I have always done in teaching, I do a simple example and when they have the idea, then they can do it the way they find best afterwards, which would include some of your more techie ways :-)
Cheers
Les


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 09:27 AM

It requires opening a new document and creating 4 sections ...

One section is sufficient, but the selection for "Different First Page" and/or "Different Odd and Even Pages" won't "stick" reliably unless you have at least a page for each of the separate footers you intend to use - before you enter the setup you want. First attempts to run through the process made it look (to me) like you needed section breaks because the settings kept disappearing until I made more than one page instead of just more than one section.

Make two pages in an empty document or use any document that is at least two pages long.

Double click in the first page footer, click the supertab for "Header & Footer Tools," put a check in "Different First Page."

The Footer you have open will show the flag as "First Page Footer."

Put whatever you want in the footer. If you don't want the first page to show a number don't put a page number in it.

Click Next Section. In this case it should say "next footer" since there's no need for a section break; but the result will be to move to the second page and the flag will show "Footer."

Put a page number in the Footer, along with anything else you want there. You must put the page number in using the Insert panel on the tool bar and clicking "Insert Page Number" or by inserting a "Page Field." The Insert Field function is missing from the tool bars since Word was "improved" but you can use Ctl-F9 and type "page" in the field that appears, or type Alt-I, F (Insert Field) and Word will show you a window where you can select (and format) the "Page" field.

Kat has indicated some understanding of Fields previously, although it is easy to "forget the details" if you don't use them fairly often.

Exit the headers/footers using the button on the tool bar or double-clicking in the body.

For what Kat originally asked for, you're done.

If there's no page number in the "First Footer" the first page will not show a page number. All following pages will be numbered beginning with "2" if you put a "Page Number" in the (not first page) footer.

If you use the "Insert Page Number" from the menu, the "thingy" that's inserted is a Page Field. If you select (highlight) it, and key Shift-F9 it will show as {PAGE \* MERGEFORMAT} exactly as if you use Insert-Field, Page (Alt-I, F,P) and applied the MERGEFORMAT attribute. With the menu, you have much less flexibility as to where the page number appears, so I prefer using the Field directly.

John


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 10:20 AM

Ok I will leave it with u john. Doesn't, need us arguing with each other.
Cheers
Les


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: GUEST,arthuritus
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 10:48 AM

Sorry guest was me


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 10:50 AM

Thanks, guys. I probably won't be able to get to this until later today, Sunday, or Monday. Kind of busy with other stuff for today and the weekend. I REALLY appreciate your help.

kat


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: pavane
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 05:43 AM

Perhaps I should write a macro to do it all in one go!


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 07:24 AM

Not a bad idea Pavane. I used to do advanced macros many years ago, but have lost the use and it would take me too long to really do the programming side now. Besides, I don't have the need anymore.


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 12:32 PM

Making progress. Using John's 927a posting, I have now managed to get the page number off of the prologue page. The rest of the doc has page numbers except the first chapter page. Somehow, I have it lumped with the prologue with no number. Did I mention I hate MSWORD 2007?

Thanks, guys!


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Subject: RE: Tech: Formatting in MS Word or Open Office
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Apr 11 - 12:47 PM

SUCCESS!!


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