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BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.

Lox 03 Aug 10 - 09:38 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Aug 10 - 09:46 PM
Lox 03 Aug 10 - 09:52 PM
number 6 03 Aug 10 - 10:00 PM
Jack the Sailor 03 Aug 10 - 10:29 PM
Jack the Sailor 03 Aug 10 - 10:40 PM
mousethief 03 Aug 10 - 11:01 PM
number 6 03 Aug 10 - 11:06 PM
number 6 03 Aug 10 - 11:08 PM
number 6 03 Aug 10 - 11:26 PM
The Fooles Troupe 04 Aug 10 - 12:40 AM
The Fooles Troupe 04 Aug 10 - 12:42 AM
The Fooles Troupe 04 Aug 10 - 12:51 AM
Joe Offer 04 Aug 10 - 01:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 10 - 02:50 AM
The Fooles Troupe 04 Aug 10 - 03:08 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Aug 10 - 03:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 10 - 04:12 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Aug 10 - 04:20 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Aug 10 - 05:11 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Aug 10 - 05:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 10 - 06:40 AM
kendall 04 Aug 10 - 06:58 AM
Ed T 04 Aug 10 - 07:05 AM
bobad 04 Aug 10 - 07:09 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Aug 10 - 07:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 10 - 07:39 AM
Lox 04 Aug 10 - 08:21 AM
Lox 04 Aug 10 - 08:31 AM
The Fooles Troupe 04 Aug 10 - 08:34 AM
number 6 04 Aug 10 - 08:41 AM
Roberto 04 Aug 10 - 08:41 AM
Roberto 04 Aug 10 - 08:50 AM
Lox 04 Aug 10 - 08:56 AM
number 6 04 Aug 10 - 09:14 AM
bobad 04 Aug 10 - 09:27 AM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Aug 10 - 09:41 AM
GUEST,ichMael 04 Aug 10 - 09:49 AM
Lox 04 Aug 10 - 10:28 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Aug 10 - 11:11 AM
Teribus 04 Aug 10 - 11:22 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Aug 10 - 11:33 AM
Roberto 04 Aug 10 - 12:06 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Aug 10 - 12:19 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 10 - 12:32 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Aug 10 - 12:42 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 10 - 12:51 PM
GUEST,number 6 04 Aug 10 - 12:52 PM
beardedbruce 04 Aug 10 - 01:00 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Aug 10 - 01:03 PM
Lox 04 Aug 10 - 01:13 PM
Lox 04 Aug 10 - 01:15 PM
GUEST,number 6 04 Aug 10 - 01:27 PM
Lox 04 Aug 10 - 01:32 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 04 Aug 10 - 01:37 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Aug 10 - 01:38 PM
GUEST,number 6 04 Aug 10 - 01:41 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Aug 10 - 01:43 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Aug 10 - 01:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 10 - 01:54 PM
Lox 04 Aug 10 - 02:00 PM
GUEST,number 6 04 Aug 10 - 02:02 PM
Lox 04 Aug 10 - 02:03 PM
Lox 04 Aug 10 - 02:09 PM
beardedbruce 04 Aug 10 - 02:20 PM
GUEST,999 04 Aug 10 - 02:26 PM
Lox 04 Aug 10 - 02:28 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 10 - 02:29 PM
Lox 04 Aug 10 - 02:49 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Aug 10 - 03:01 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Aug 10 - 03:29 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 10 - 03:30 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Aug 10 - 03:31 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Aug 10 - 03:34 PM
beardedbruce 04 Aug 10 - 03:40 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Aug 10 - 03:50 PM
Lox 04 Aug 10 - 03:53 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 10 - 03:55 PM
GUEST,999 04 Aug 10 - 03:55 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Aug 10 - 03:57 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 10 - 04:03 PM
mousethief 04 Aug 10 - 04:09 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Aug 10 - 04:10 PM
beardedbruce 04 Aug 10 - 04:11 PM
mousethief 04 Aug 10 - 04:18 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Aug 10 - 04:20 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Aug 10 - 04:28 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Aug 10 - 04:43 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Aug 10 - 04:52 PM
mousethief 04 Aug 10 - 05:08 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Aug 10 - 05:12 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 10 - 05:20 PM
Ed T 04 Aug 10 - 05:33 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Aug 10 - 05:45 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Aug 10 - 05:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 10 - 05:58 PM
Ed T 04 Aug 10 - 06:00 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Aug 10 - 06:25 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Aug 10 - 06:33 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Aug 10 - 06:48 PM
Ed T 04 Aug 10 - 07:28 PM
bobad 04 Aug 10 - 07:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Aug 10 - 07:39 PM
Ed T 04 Aug 10 - 07:54 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Aug 10 - 07:54 PM
Teribus 04 Aug 10 - 08:12 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Aug 10 - 08:28 PM
Ed T 04 Aug 10 - 08:44 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Aug 10 - 08:50 PM
Lox 04 Aug 10 - 09:14 PM
Lox 04 Aug 10 - 09:25 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 04 Aug 10 - 09:42 PM
Ed T 04 Aug 10 - 09:50 PM
Ed T 04 Aug 10 - 09:55 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Aug 10 - 10:09 PM
The Fooles Troupe 05 Aug 10 - 12:06 AM
The Fooles Troupe 05 Aug 10 - 12:08 AM
Jack the Sailor 05 Aug 10 - 12:15 AM
The Fooles Troupe 05 Aug 10 - 12:28 AM
mousethief 05 Aug 10 - 01:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 10 - 03:25 AM
Teribus 05 Aug 10 - 03:45 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Aug 10 - 05:31 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Aug 10 - 05:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 10 - 06:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 10 - 06:16 AM
Teribus 05 Aug 10 - 06:30 AM
Teribus 05 Aug 10 - 06:37 AM
Lox 05 Aug 10 - 06:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 10 - 07:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 10 - 07:03 AM
Lox 05 Aug 10 - 07:10 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Aug 10 - 07:16 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Aug 10 - 07:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 10 - 07:42 AM
Lox 05 Aug 10 - 08:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 10 - 08:24 AM
Lox 05 Aug 10 - 08:43 AM
Lox 05 Aug 10 - 08:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 10 - 09:03 AM
Lox 05 Aug 10 - 09:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 10 - 09:23 AM
Lox 05 Aug 10 - 09:23 AM
Lox 05 Aug 10 - 10:00 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 05 Aug 10 - 10:06 AM
The Fooles Troupe 05 Aug 10 - 10:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 10 - 10:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 10 - 10:32 AM
mousethief 05 Aug 10 - 11:29 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 Aug 10 - 11:42 AM
GUEST,number 6 05 Aug 10 - 11:52 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 Aug 10 - 11:54 AM
Teribus 05 Aug 10 - 12:07 PM
Teribus 05 Aug 10 - 12:22 PM
beardedbruce 05 Aug 10 - 12:23 PM
beardedbruce 05 Aug 10 - 12:25 PM
GUEST,number 6 05 Aug 10 - 12:28 PM
beardedbruce 05 Aug 10 - 12:35 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Aug 10 - 12:40 PM
beardedbruce 05 Aug 10 - 12:58 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 10 - 12:58 PM
beardedbruce 05 Aug 10 - 12:59 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 Aug 10 - 01:04 PM
Lox 05 Aug 10 - 01:53 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Aug 10 - 01:54 PM
Roberto 05 Aug 10 - 02:04 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Aug 10 - 03:11 PM
beardedbruce 05 Aug 10 - 03:37 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Aug 10 - 04:04 PM
mousethief 05 Aug 10 - 04:10 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 10 - 04:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Aug 10 - 04:48 PM
beardedbruce 05 Aug 10 - 04:53 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Aug 10 - 05:17 PM
GUEST,John on the Sunset Coast-- 05 Aug 10 - 05:49 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 Aug 10 - 06:02 PM
The Fooles Troupe 05 Aug 10 - 06:56 PM
Jim Carroll 05 Aug 10 - 07:07 PM
The Fooles Troupe 05 Aug 10 - 07:10 PM
The Fooles Troupe 05 Aug 10 - 07:13 PM
Lox 05 Aug 10 - 07:54 PM
mousethief 05 Aug 10 - 08:39 PM
mousethief 05 Aug 10 - 08:46 PM
beardedbruce 05 Aug 10 - 09:17 PM
The Fooles Troupe 05 Aug 10 - 10:19 PM
mousethief 06 Aug 10 - 12:02 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 06 Aug 10 - 01:01 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 Aug 10 - 01:04 AM
Roberto 06 Aug 10 - 02:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Aug 10 - 03:15 AM
mousethief 06 Aug 10 - 04:02 AM
The Fooles Troupe 06 Aug 10 - 04:29 AM
Lox 06 Aug 10 - 06:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Aug 10 - 06:31 AM
The Fooles Troupe 06 Aug 10 - 09:13 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 Aug 10 - 10:44 AM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Aug 10 - 10:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Aug 10 - 10:53 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 Aug 10 - 11:24 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 Aug 10 - 11:24 AM
Lox 06 Aug 10 - 11:35 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Aug 10 - 12:33 PM
greg stephens 06 Aug 10 - 12:46 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Aug 10 - 12:55 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Aug 10 - 01:17 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Aug 10 - 01:21 PM
Roberto 06 Aug 10 - 01:24 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Aug 10 - 01:44 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Aug 10 - 01:46 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Aug 10 - 02:28 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Aug 10 - 02:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Aug 10 - 03:00 PM
beardedbruce 06 Aug 10 - 03:11 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Aug 10 - 03:39 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Aug 10 - 03:55 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Aug 10 - 04:15 PM
beardedbruce 06 Aug 10 - 04:26 PM
beardedbruce 06 Aug 10 - 04:30 PM
beardedbruce 06 Aug 10 - 04:31 PM
beardedbruce 06 Aug 10 - 04:33 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Aug 10 - 04:39 PM
beardedbruce 06 Aug 10 - 04:40 PM
beardedbruce 06 Aug 10 - 04:43 PM
beardedbruce 06 Aug 10 - 04:47 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Aug 10 - 05:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Aug 10 - 05:22 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Aug 10 - 05:39 PM
mousethief 07 Aug 10 - 02:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Aug 10 - 03:04 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Aug 10 - 03:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Aug 10 - 03:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Aug 10 - 04:47 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Aug 10 - 05:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Aug 10 - 06:39 AM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Aug 10 - 06:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Aug 10 - 07:11 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Aug 10 - 07:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Aug 10 - 07:57 AM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Aug 10 - 10:47 AM
mousethief 07 Aug 10 - 11:26 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Aug 10 - 11:58 AM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Aug 10 - 12:28 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Aug 10 - 02:31 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Aug 10 - 06:01 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Aug 10 - 07:21 PM
mousethief 08 Aug 10 - 01:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Aug 10 - 01:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Aug 10 - 01:46 AM
mousethief 08 Aug 10 - 02:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Aug 10 - 02:40 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Aug 10 - 03:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Aug 10 - 03:58 AM
The Fooles Troupe 08 Aug 10 - 04:47 AM
The Fooles Troupe 08 Aug 10 - 04:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Aug 10 - 06:08 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Aug 10 - 06:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Aug 10 - 06:40 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Aug 10 - 07:39 AM
The Fooles Troupe 08 Aug 10 - 08:13 AM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Aug 10 - 08:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Aug 10 - 10:02 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Aug 10 - 10:05 AM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Aug 10 - 12:09 PM
Teribus 08 Aug 10 - 01:29 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Aug 10 - 01:43 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Aug 10 - 02:07 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Aug 10 - 02:54 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Aug 10 - 03:15 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Aug 10 - 03:24 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Aug 10 - 03:28 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Aug 10 - 03:47 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Aug 10 - 05:21 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Aug 10 - 05:31 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Aug 10 - 05:57 PM
The Fooles Troupe 08 Aug 10 - 07:09 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Aug 10 - 07:12 PM
The Fooles Troupe 08 Aug 10 - 07:18 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Aug 10 - 07:23 PM
The Fooles Troupe 08 Aug 10 - 07:30 PM
bobad 08 Aug 10 - 07:39 PM
The Fooles Troupe 08 Aug 10 - 07:53 PM
bobad 08 Aug 10 - 08:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Aug 10 - 11:07 PM
The Fooles Troupe 08 Aug 10 - 11:25 PM
The Fooles Troupe 08 Aug 10 - 11:50 PM
Lox 09 Aug 10 - 12:07 AM
Lox 09 Aug 10 - 12:23 AM
Lox 09 Aug 10 - 12:31 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 09 Aug 10 - 02:19 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 09 Aug 10 - 02:24 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Aug 10 - 03:10 AM
mousethief 09 Aug 10 - 03:25 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 09 Aug 10 - 03:43 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 09 Aug 10 - 04:13 AM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Aug 10 - 06:53 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Aug 10 - 06:57 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Aug 10 - 07:31 AM
Lox 09 Aug 10 - 08:10 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Aug 10 - 08:27 AM
bobad 09 Aug 10 - 09:00 AM
GUEST,number 6 09 Aug 10 - 09:18 AM
GUEST,Silas 09 Aug 10 - 09:25 AM
akenaton 09 Aug 10 - 09:34 AM
Lox 09 Aug 10 - 09:48 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Aug 10 - 10:15 AM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Aug 10 - 12:37 PM
beardedbruce 09 Aug 10 - 12:47 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Aug 10 - 01:15 PM
Lox 09 Aug 10 - 01:20 PM
Lox 09 Aug 10 - 01:22 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Aug 10 - 01:25 PM
GUEST,number 6 09 Aug 10 - 01:37 PM
beardedbruce 09 Aug 10 - 01:43 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 09 Aug 10 - 01:49 PM
Lox 09 Aug 10 - 02:06 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 09 Aug 10 - 02:17 PM
Lox 09 Aug 10 - 02:18 PM
Teribus 09 Aug 10 - 02:20 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 09 Aug 10 - 02:24 PM
Lox 09 Aug 10 - 02:26 PM
bobad 09 Aug 10 - 02:27 PM
Lox 09 Aug 10 - 02:37 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Aug 10 - 02:45 PM
bobad 09 Aug 10 - 02:54 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Aug 10 - 03:00 PM
GUEST,number 6 09 Aug 10 - 03:11 PM
bobad 09 Aug 10 - 03:17 PM
GUEST,number 6 09 Aug 10 - 03:19 PM
Teribus 09 Aug 10 - 03:32 PM
Lox 09 Aug 10 - 03:37 PM
GUEST,number 6 09 Aug 10 - 03:42 PM
mousethief 09 Aug 10 - 03:50 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Aug 10 - 03:50 PM
Lox 09 Aug 10 - 03:58 PM
bobad 09 Aug 10 - 04:09 PM
GUEST,number 6 09 Aug 10 - 04:32 PM
Lox 09 Aug 10 - 04:49 PM
Lox 09 Aug 10 - 04:52 PM
Ed T 09 Aug 10 - 05:00 PM
number 6 09 Aug 10 - 05:04 PM
Lox 09 Aug 10 - 05:28 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Aug 10 - 05:46 PM
number 6 09 Aug 10 - 06:04 PM
Ed T 09 Aug 10 - 06:06 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 09 Aug 10 - 07:53 PM
bobad 09 Aug 10 - 08:18 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 Aug 10 - 09:03 PM
mousethief 09 Aug 10 - 09:46 PM
robomatic 09 Aug 10 - 10:39 PM
mousethief 09 Aug 10 - 11:29 PM
The Fooles Troupe 10 Aug 10 - 01:05 AM
The Fooles Troupe 10 Aug 10 - 01:12 AM
The Fooles Troupe 10 Aug 10 - 01:26 AM
mousethief 10 Aug 10 - 02:20 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Aug 10 - 05:53 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 Aug 10 - 06:15 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Aug 10 - 06:57 AM
Ed T 10 Aug 10 - 09:13 AM
The Fooles Troupe 10 Aug 10 - 09:41 AM
Teribus 10 Aug 10 - 10:57 AM
Ed T 10 Aug 10 - 11:20 AM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Aug 10 - 12:31 PM
bobad 10 Aug 10 - 01:17 PM
Ed T 10 Aug 10 - 01:28 PM
Ed T 10 Aug 10 - 01:31 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Aug 10 - 01:42 PM
bobad 10 Aug 10 - 02:14 PM
beardedbruce 10 Aug 10 - 02:25 PM
Ed T 10 Aug 10 - 02:51 PM
bobad 10 Aug 10 - 03:03 PM
GUEST,number 6 10 Aug 10 - 03:13 PM
Ed T 10 Aug 10 - 03:19 PM
mousethief 10 Aug 10 - 04:33 PM
robomatic 10 Aug 10 - 04:33 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Aug 10 - 05:20 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 10 Aug 10 - 05:59 PM
The Fooles Troupe 10 Aug 10 - 06:04 PM
Ed T 10 Aug 10 - 06:14 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Aug 10 - 06:30 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 10 Aug 10 - 06:35 PM
mousethief 10 Aug 10 - 06:47 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Aug 10 - 06:48 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 Aug 10 - 06:51 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Aug 10 - 07:07 PM
bobad 10 Aug 10 - 07:08 PM
bobad 10 Aug 10 - 07:19 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Aug 10 - 07:36 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 Aug 10 - 07:46 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 Aug 10 - 08:24 PM
The Fooles Troupe 10 Aug 10 - 10:38 PM
mousethief 10 Aug 10 - 11:08 PM
Teribus 11 Aug 10 - 12:19 AM
mousethief 11 Aug 10 - 01:03 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Aug 10 - 01:11 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Aug 10 - 03:39 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Aug 10 - 04:17 AM
Lox 11 Aug 10 - 06:43 AM
The Fooles Troupe 11 Aug 10 - 09:48 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Aug 10 - 11:10 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Aug 10 - 11:11 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 11 Aug 10 - 11:17 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Aug 10 - 12:12 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 11 Aug 10 - 12:31 PM
Teribus 11 Aug 10 - 12:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Aug 10 - 12:37 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 11 Aug 10 - 01:12 PM
beardedbruce 11 Aug 10 - 01:20 PM
Lox 11 Aug 10 - 01:24 PM
number 6 11 Aug 10 - 01:39 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Aug 10 - 01:40 PM
beardedbruce 11 Aug 10 - 01:47 PM
bobad 11 Aug 10 - 01:54 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Aug 10 - 02:48 PM
beardedbruce 11 Aug 10 - 03:04 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Aug 10 - 03:17 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Aug 10 - 03:39 PM
beardedbruce 11 Aug 10 - 03:43 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 11 Aug 10 - 03:50 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Aug 10 - 04:12 PM
Jim Carroll 11 Aug 10 - 04:31 PM
mousethief 11 Aug 10 - 05:50 PM
beardedbruce 11 Aug 10 - 06:02 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Aug 10 - 06:37 PM
beardedbruce 11 Aug 10 - 06:41 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Aug 10 - 07:08 PM
beardedbruce 11 Aug 10 - 07:15 PM
bobad 11 Aug 10 - 07:20 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Aug 10 - 07:34 PM
Ed T 11 Aug 10 - 09:51 PM
bobad 11 Aug 10 - 10:01 PM
bobad 11 Aug 10 - 10:30 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Aug 10 - 11:15 PM
Teribus 12 Aug 10 - 12:46 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Aug 10 - 03:16 AM
bobad 12 Aug 10 - 06:55 AM
Ed T 12 Aug 10 - 07:37 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Aug 10 - 08:51 AM
Greg F. 12 Aug 10 - 08:54 AM
Ed T 12 Aug 10 - 09:49 AM
Ed T 12 Aug 10 - 09:53 AM
robomatic 12 Aug 10 - 12:11 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 12 Aug 10 - 01:17 PM
bobad 12 Aug 10 - 01:20 PM
Ed T 12 Aug 10 - 03:23 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Aug 10 - 03:33 PM
Lox 12 Aug 10 - 04:28 PM
Lox 12 Aug 10 - 04:31 PM
robomatic 12 Aug 10 - 04:43 PM
Lox 12 Aug 10 - 05:03 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 12 Aug 10 - 05:46 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Aug 10 - 06:26 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 12 Aug 10 - 09:48 PM
mousethief 13 Aug 10 - 12:16 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Aug 10 - 04:16 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Aug 10 - 08:14 AM
GUEST,Silas 13 Aug 10 - 08:20 AM
Roberto 13 Aug 10 - 09:46 AM
Lox 13 Aug 10 - 11:07 AM
Roberto 13 Aug 10 - 11:11 AM
GUEST,Silas 13 Aug 10 - 11:18 AM
Lox 13 Aug 10 - 11:42 AM
Roberto 13 Aug 10 - 11:52 AM
Lox 13 Aug 10 - 12:09 PM
Roberto 13 Aug 10 - 12:27 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Aug 10 - 12:46 PM
Lox 13 Aug 10 - 12:54 PM
beardedbruce 13 Aug 10 - 01:00 PM
Lox 13 Aug 10 - 01:02 PM
Lox 13 Aug 10 - 01:07 PM
Lox 13 Aug 10 - 01:08 PM
beardedbruce 13 Aug 10 - 01:13 PM
Lox 13 Aug 10 - 01:29 PM
Ed T 13 Aug 10 - 01:58 PM
Ed T 13 Aug 10 - 02:11 PM
beardedbruce 13 Aug 10 - 02:13 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Aug 10 - 02:19 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 13 Aug 10 - 02:21 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Aug 10 - 02:43 PM
Ed T 13 Aug 10 - 03:30 PM
Ed T 13 Aug 10 - 03:37 PM
Ed T 13 Aug 10 - 03:38 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Aug 10 - 03:40 PM
Ed T 13 Aug 10 - 03:45 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 13 Aug 10 - 03:48 PM
Ed T 13 Aug 10 - 03:50 PM
Lox 13 Aug 10 - 04:21 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Aug 10 - 04:57 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Aug 10 - 05:23 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 13 Aug 10 - 05:34 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Aug 10 - 05:41 PM
Ed T 13 Aug 10 - 08:11 PM
The Fooles Troupe 13 Aug 10 - 08:34 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 Aug 10 - 01:19 AM
Joe Offer 14 Aug 10 - 02:01 AM
mousethief 14 Aug 10 - 02:28 AM
Greg F. 14 Aug 10 - 09:39 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Aug 10 - 10:36 AM
mousethief 14 Aug 10 - 02:05 PM
Ed T 14 Aug 10 - 02:49 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Aug 10 - 04:52 PM
Ed T 14 Aug 10 - 05:05 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 Aug 10 - 10:42 PM
Roberto 15 Aug 10 - 03:09 AM
Lox 15 Aug 10 - 06:17 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Aug 10 - 06:25 AM
Greg F. 15 Aug 10 - 12:42 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 15 Aug 10 - 06:57 PM
robomatic 15 Aug 10 - 09:38 PM
Lox 15 Aug 10 - 09:48 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 15 Aug 10 - 09:50 PM
Lox 15 Aug 10 - 10:02 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Aug 10 - 02:42 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 10 - 03:19 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 16 Aug 10 - 11:24 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Aug 10 - 12:02 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 10 - 12:12 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 10 - 12:37 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 16 Aug 10 - 01:30 PM
Lox 16 Aug 10 - 02:35 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 10 - 02:56 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 16 Aug 10 - 04:42 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Aug 10 - 04:54 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 16 Aug 10 - 04:56 PM
Lox 16 Aug 10 - 05:19 PM
Ed T 16 Aug 10 - 09:41 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Aug 10 - 09:59 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 16 Aug 10 - 10:43 PM
The Fooles Troupe 17 Aug 10 - 01:20 AM
The Fooles Troupe 17 Aug 10 - 01:23 AM
Lox 17 Aug 10 - 06:50 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Aug 10 - 08:28 AM
Lox 17 Aug 10 - 08:37 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Aug 10 - 05:40 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 17 Aug 10 - 05:51 PM
mousethief 17 Aug 10 - 07:15 PM
Ed T 18 Aug 10 - 12:49 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Aug 10 - 05:43 AM
mousethief 18 Aug 10 - 05:09 PM
The Fooles Troupe 18 Aug 10 - 06:19 PM
mousethief 18 Aug 10 - 08:41 PM
Stringsinger 18 Aug 10 - 10:25 PM
Roberto 19 Aug 10 - 03:21 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Aug 10 - 03:32 AM
GUEST 19 Aug 10 - 04:03 AM
Lox 19 Aug 10 - 04:04 AM
mousethief 19 Aug 10 - 04:26 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Aug 10 - 04:45 AM
Roberto 19 Aug 10 - 05:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Aug 10 - 06:11 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 19 Aug 10 - 11:58 AM
Lox 19 Aug 10 - 03:19 PM
Ed T 19 Aug 10 - 09:06 PM
Lox 19 Aug 10 - 09:31 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 19 Aug 10 - 09:58 PM
Ed T 19 Aug 10 - 10:13 PM
Lox 19 Aug 10 - 10:29 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Aug 10 - 08:37 AM
Ed T 20 Aug 10 - 12:52 PM
The Fooles Troupe 20 Aug 10 - 06:59 PM
Roberto 21 Aug 10 - 05:40 AM
Stringsinger 21 Aug 10 - 01:16 PM
The Fooles Troupe 21 Aug 10 - 10:49 PM
Roberto 22 Aug 10 - 02:18 AM
The Fooles Troupe 22 Aug 10 - 02:33 AM
Roberto 22 Aug 10 - 03:01 AM
The Fooles Troupe 22 Aug 10 - 04:14 AM
Ed T 22 Aug 10 - 09:16 AM
The Fooles Troupe 22 Aug 10 - 09:26 PM
mousethief 23 Aug 10 - 01:00 AM
beardedbruce 23 Aug 10 - 03:28 AM
The Fooles Troupe 23 Aug 10 - 09:04 AM
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The Fooles Troupe 23 Aug 10 - 09:10 AM
Ed T 23 Aug 10 - 09:20 AM
beardedbruce 23 Aug 10 - 09:31 PM
mousethief 23 Aug 10 - 09:51 PM
The Fooles Troupe 23 Aug 10 - 10:56 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 23 Aug 10 - 11:19 PM
The Fooles Troupe 23 Aug 10 - 11:55 PM
Roberto 24 Aug 10 - 01:30 AM
The Fooles Troupe 24 Aug 10 - 03:07 AM
Teribus 24 Aug 10 - 08:28 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 24 Aug 10 - 02:15 PM
mousethief 24 Aug 10 - 03:26 PM
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Subject: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 09:38 PM

For a long time now rockets have been fired at random into Israel from Gaza and as a result Israeli civilians have been maimed and killed.

My views are.

1. Firing rockets into random civilian areas is a crime, in Israel as anywhere else.

2. Firing rockets into random civilian areas, from a political perspective, serves only to deepen the problems faced by palestinians living in Gaza.


Politically, I find the balance of power between Israel and palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank to be very one sided and I strongly oppose what I perceive to be a deliberate policy of humiliation of Palestinians in the occupied territories.

However, I do not agree that the political situation justifies violence and I condemn outright anyone who uses violence to achieve their aims.

I am curious to know if anyone on the mudcat supports or defends the firing of rockets from Gaza into Israel.

If not then this is likely to be a short discussion.

But you never know, there might be someone who thinks they are necessary, morally acceptable or deserved.

Please note that my enquiry is specific to the rocket attacks and attempted rocket attacks against Israel.

Anyone think its right to blow up Israelis?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 09:46 PM

Is it wrong for Israeli rockets to blow up Gazans?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 09:52 PM

As you are asking, in my opinion definitely yes.

However, the point has been made repeatedly on this forum that noone pays any attention to Gazan rockets being fired at Israel.

Therefore i have created an opportunity for people to share the full range of views on that specific subject.

Still no support for the firing of rockets into Israel ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: number 6
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 10:00 PM

sad, very sad.

we sit at our computer terminals and debate the justification and morality killing civilians ... which is more tragic, a dead palestinian, or a dead Israeli?

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 10:29 PM

>>which is more tragic, a dead palestinian, or a dead Israeli?<<

I don't think that it is right to fire rockets at civilians.

I don't know who is firing the rockets or what the intended targets are.

I am told that the rockets are very primitive and difficult to aim.

On the other hand I do know that Israel has access to the the most accurate weapons on earth ant that they manage to kill hundreds of Palestinians for every Israeli who is harmed.

Our supposed good friends and allies had earned more respect than rag tag bands of insurgents. But with that respect should come responsibility, not knee jerk disproportionate violence.

Isn't the actual moral question

Which is more tragic, hundreds of dead palestinians, or one dead Israeli?

Or Millions of suffering Palistinians vs a few Israeli militant settlers who have to run to a shelter once in a while when the alarms go off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 10:40 PM

BTW Lox,

You have only Israel's word that the rockets are being fired by Hamas.

I have heard UN officials report that Hamas police are routinely shot by snipers on the Israel side of the border when trying to arrest people firing rockets.

I find this very easy to believe because when Hamas was not in charge Israel responded to their rocket attacks by destroying Palistinian Authority Police stations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 11:01 PM

Firing rockets at Israelis is wrong. Then again, squatting on other people's land for 43 years is also wrong. Throwing rocks at Israelis is wrong. Then again, tearing up people's homes and olive groves to make subdivisions for Jewish settlers is also wrong. Suicide bombers are wrong. Then again, denying people basic building supplies to rebuild the infrastructure that you destroyed is also wrong.

Lots of wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: number 6
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 11:06 PM

1 dead Palestinian child


1 dead Israeli child




biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: number 6
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 11:08 PM

1 grieving Palestinian mother



1 grieving Israeli mother




biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: number 6
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 11:26 PM

1 rocket made in a factory somewhere in the U.S. .... clinical, precision, target determined with prejudice



1 rocket made in a factory somewhere in Iran .... clinical, precision, target determined with prejudice



biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 12:40 AM

Ah - sp now to distract us we have a NEW thread to obfuscate matters

Israel-Lebanon border clash kills five people

The Lebanese army says Israeli soldiers crossed the border to uproot a tree which was blocking their view near the Lebanese village of Adaysseh.

A Lebanese army spokesman said troops had fired warning shots and Israel had responded with fire from artillery positions and helicopters.

The Lebanese army confirmed to the BBC that three of its soldiers had been killed and four wounded. The al-Akhbar newspaper confirmed that one of its journalists, Assaf Abu Rahhal, had also been killed.

Hezbollah fighters, who battled Israel four years ago, took no part in the exchange of fire. But Hezbollah leader Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah said the group would not stand silent if Israel attacked the Lebanese army in the future.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

IDF WP bursts clearly visible on news footage - if 'only for cover' - why are they targeting Lebanese positions?

~~~~~~~~~~
"Lebanon's Higher Council for Defense headed by President Michel Suleiman said it held Israel accountable for Tuesday's clash and it would complain to the U.N. Security Council.

Israeli complained to the U.N Security Council over the clash, saying it held the government of Lebanon responsible. "

But - he hit me back first!


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 12:42 AM

"I have heard UN officials report that Hamas police are routinely shot by snipers on the Israel side of the border when trying to arrest people firing rockets. "

IDF border patrol forces regularly fire across the border on Gaza farmers trying to work their fields.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 12:51 AM

"there might be someone who thinks they are ... deserved."

Exodus 21:24 - eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot

The "eye for an eye" maxim is not about harshness; it's about proportional retribution

So the madness can never end while this goes on... matters of 'right or wrong' or 'moral justification' are pointless really....


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:51 AM

Which is more tragic, hundreds of dead palestinians, or one dead Israeli?

Every death is absolutely tragic. No comparison of numbers is valid; and it is obscene to attempt to justify killing as righteous retribution, simply because one side has killed more than the other side. It is absolutely horrible to kill one person, and it is absolutely horrible to kill a hundred.

The killing has to stop. There is no justification for it, on either side. Neither side has moral superiority. Both are wrong, and both will be horribly wrong every time they kill another person. Nobody can even remember the reason why all this killing started. It has been going on for over sixty years.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:50 AM

I wonder if Jim Carrol will make a contribution.
He has been ambiguous about Hamas' rockets, and said of them, "Every little helps."

Because they are intended for civilians, they are indisputably a war crime.
The israelis only attacked is response to the rockets and to try to stop them. States are allowed to respond in self defence.
What alternative did they have?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:08 AM

You ARE a plant Keith.... how much are you paid to take only one side of an argument?

"The killing has to stop. There is no justification for it, on either side. Neither side has moral superiority. Both are wrong, and both will be horribly wrong every time they kill another person"

Amen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:53 AM

>>>Every death is absolutely tragic. No comparison of numbers is valid<<<

Absolutely agree, Joe. But that is not how things are always viewed. Who was it who cynically said that he worked policy-wise on the basis that one death is a tragedy but ten-thousand deaths are merely a statistic? Hitler, was it? Or Göbbels? One of those bozos, anyhow.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:12 AM

"The killing has to stop. There is no justification for it, on either side. "

The rockets into Israel were and are unprovoked.
If IDF reply and kill a rocket firer, I would say that was justified self defence.
He would have fired another next day.

Israel is a democracy and its people expect and demand their government to take action against the rockets.
Could someone list the alternatives to military action against them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:20 AM

The point must be made again too, surely, that Gaza is also a democracy ~ which fairly recently held elections ~ and elected Hamas ~ who are the ones firing the rockets: which can accordingly presumably be said to emanate with the avowed and explicit support of the majority of the population of Gaza. Is it not ∴ at least arguable that they have thus brought the IDF retaliation on themselves?

Just putting the point for consideration...

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 05:11 AM

As far as I am concerned all killing is an obscenity, - an idealist's point of view, but in the real world it seem so be an ingrained feature of our culture, so short of climbing a mountain and finding Shangri-La, we have to make a judgement of each situation and seek to improve it.
We've discussed the Palestinian question ad-nauseum and there seems little point in opening another thread to continue it here, though I've no doubt that it won't be too long before we're back slagging each other off. I would be grateful if we could address the issue in hand and not use this in order to score points over individuals, as has already started to happen.
My assessment of the situation of the Israel/Palestinian situation as far as who is killing who, is that Israel is a well armed militaristic State with nuclear weapons who have used their superior strength to seize territory and drive Palestinians from their homes. They have had no hesitation in using heavy weaponry, including debilitating and lethal chemical weapons which they have turned on the Palestinian population in general.
Next to the Israeli arsenal, those used by the Palestinians are little more than pea-shooters and compared to their nuclear capacity, they are equivilent to little more than a draught from an open window .
The Israelis have said they will return to the conference table within two weeks - I very much doubt if that would have happened if it hadn't been for the Palestinian opposition, feeble as it has been, and for their 'own goal' act of piracy which has dragged their behaviour into the public eye with a vengeance.
Condemning Palestinian retaliation out of context is the same as condemning the French tactics used in opposing the Nazi occupiers, or the Irish against the British Empire, or the Viet-Namese for using the tactics they did against the might of the US - poor against weak; David against Goliath, however you care to term it.
Yes - the Palestinians should stop killing and wounding Israelis, and the Israelis should stop killing Palestinians - but as neither are going to at the present time, what do people suggest the Palestinians should do to protect their homes and lives - turn the other cheek, surrender?
WITHOUT AN ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION ANY DISCUSSION ON THE CONFLICT DEPENDS ENTIRELY ON WHICH SIDE YOU SUPPORT - NOTHING MORE.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 05:20 AM

Sorry Joe, didn't see your post.
"Nobody can even remember the reason why all this killing started. It has been going on for over sixty years."
Beg to disgree - the Palestinians are reminded of what it is about each time they come to a checkpoint, or try to get to their land on the other side of the Berlin-type wall, or are evicted by settlers who can't be botheres to wait for the court's decision, or have their homes destroyed to build a tourist centre, or see tanks rolling up their streets to demolish their houses, schools and hospitals, or try to feed their children during the blockade..... National and World Wars have been fought on these issues.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 06:40 AM

" the Palestinians should stop killing and wounding Israelis, and the Israelis should stop killing Palestinians - but as neither are going to at the present time, what do people suggest the Palestinians should do to protect their homes and lives - turn the other cheek, surrender? "

I think they should stop firing rockets to kill civilians.
It is impossible to construe such attacks as defensive.
The Israelis would then have no pretext, if that is what it is, for their strikes against Hamas.

After Israel withdrew from Gaza, the rockets continued unprovoked, and preceded each IDF strike and were claimed as the justification for each strike.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: kendall
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 06:58 AM

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth only makes the whole world blind and toothless. (M. Mahatma Gandhi)


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 07:05 AM

The "eye for an eye" maxim is not about harshness; it's about proportional retribution.

Should one also consider 911. Was there a "proportional retribution" in Iraq and Afganistan?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: bobad
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 07:09 AM

"The "eye for an eye" maxim is not about harshness; it's about proportional retribution."

So Israel should just fire rockets and mortars into Gaza and that would make it alright?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 07:23 AM

"So Israel should just fire rockets and mortars into Gaza and that would make it alright?"
No - but in the extremely unlikely event of their layind down their heavy and chemical weapons and have no more incursions it would level the playing field.
"I think they should stop firing rockets to kill civilians."
And then Israel would withdraw back behind the pre-six day war boundaries and they'd all live happily ever after.
Yeah, right!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 07:39 AM

If the rockets stop, Israel's retaliatory strikes will immediately stop too.
The incursion would never have happened.
No more killing.
And then negotiations could restart.
Just stop the rockets.
Launching them is a war crime.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 08:21 AM

I haven't read any support for the rockets being fired into Israel from Gaza yet.

I have read support for Israeli violence against Gazan Civilians.


The purpose of this thread was to see if anyone supported the Rockets from Gaza.


Some say no, but they point out that Israel is as bad if not worse as they have committed the same crime more often.

Others have said no, but they do support Israeli attacks.



This is important to me as it clarifies that everyone agrees that the rockets are BAD.


Hear that Bruce?


Its not much of a discussion is it?


We all condemn the rockets.



Nit all of us condemn the Israeli attacks.



Some of us defend them and support them.



So what is left to be discussed?



This - ... Israeli attacks on Gaza are a crime.



DO YOU SEE ... THATS WHY WE TALK ABOUT ISRAELI AGGRESSION AND NOT THE ROCKETS.


No matter which way the bigots twist and wriggle, their utter lack of humanity and compassion and their self righteous cruelty shine out clearer and clearer with each word they utter.

Keith is definitely one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 08:31 AM

Keith says:

"The rockets into Israel were and are unprovoked.
If IDF reply and kill a rocket firer, I would say that was justified self defence.
He would have fired another next day."

What an ignorant - no - wilfully dishonest thing to say.

So the IDF only kills the rocket firer eh?

I put it to you that a smnall percentage of those killed by the IDF ever come within spitting distance of a rocket.


This thread was intended to be revealing. It is fulfilling its purpose superbly well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 08:34 AM

Naughty Lox - they don't want rationality .... they are having too much fun being blind and bigoted ....


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: number 6
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 08:41 AM

well Lox,

Go to an Israeli mother who child has been killed by a rocket, and go to a Palestinian mother whose child was killed by a rocket ... and proclaim to them loud and clear that yes .... "Keith was wrong, way wrong, and I was right".

the insanity of it all.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Roberto
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 08:41 AM

Jim writes: and then Israel would withdraw back behind the pre-six day war boundaries and they'd all live happily ever after.

I see your sentence is ironical, but as for the pre-six day war boundaries, don't forget Israel was within its pre-six day war boundaries in 1967, when it got attacked by Egypt, Syria and Jordan, and Israel was within its 1947 boundaries, the ones decided by the UN, when it got attacked by Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Roberto
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 08:50 AM

correct version

Jim writes: and then Israel would withdraw back behind the pre-six day war boundaries and they'd all live happily ever after.

I see your sentence is ironical, but as for the pre-six day war boundaries, don't forget Israel was within its pre-six day war boundaries in 1967, when it got attacked by Egypt, Syria and Jordan, and Israel was within its 1947 boundaries, the ones decided by the UN, when it got attacked (in 1948) by Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 08:56 AM

Number 6.

Your comments have no bearing on mine.

I have made no comparison between Israeli lives and Palestinian lives.

The fact that I haven't commented on your point is down to the fact that I have no interest in it.

I wanted to know if anyone supports the Gazan Rockets being fired at Israel.

The answer so far is NO.


Some have volunteered unsolicited points of view on other matters.

For example some have pointed out that Israel has committed the same crime a hundredfold, and some have spoken out in support of Israeli attacks.


If you are so concerned about dying chldren, why don't you address the people who speak out in support of violence.

The only people speaking out on this thread in support of violence are those who have openly supported the Israeli attacks.


I said I condemn the Palestinian rockets.

As it happens I also condemn the Israeli attacks.


So I condemn ALL the killing.


So ask Keith or BB or someone who SUPPORTS Israeli violence and tell them to go to the Palestinian mother.


Is that too hard for you to understand?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: number 6
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 09:14 AM

Lox,

I and most of the individuals who have responded to this thread have read the various posts in 'other threads' were you, BB and whoever have expressed their views concerning the ongoing tragedy in the mideast ... we can deduce from what has been posted on where people stand in regards to the issue.

What I don't understand is why you have initiated a thread just to prove the one sided view that you are right, and they are wrong. I sincerely believe everyone who has responded in this thread is repulsed by the killing of innocent civilians on both sides. Let's don't continue the violence of war, and find justification for war ... let's forget the past and just hope and support peace for evermore. Sounds simple, but it just might work ... as Mr. Lennon preached ... "give peace a chance"

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: bobad
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 09:27 AM

Didn't take too long for a thread about Hamas rockets being fired at Israel to turn into another Israel bashing frenzy by the usual subjects.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 09:41 AM

"The rockets into Israel were and are unprovoked."

There is always a provocation for every reprisal. And there is always a reprisal for every provocation.

The only difference between a provocation and a reprisal lies in who is writing the press release.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,ichMael
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 09:49 AM

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=hamas+founded+by+israel&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

Israel founded Hamas to act as a bogeyman organization. All major terrorist activity in the world is done at the bidding of the Israeli, American and British intelligence agencies. Hamas is a puppet of the Mossad.

WW3 is coming. Most likely we'll be told that Hamas or bin Laden are killing innocent Israeli babies, and Israel will use one of its nuclear subs to attack someone, then the US will show support by attacking Iran, or Pakistan. Don't fall for it. Israel is the most politically dirty country on earth. Don't support Israel in its terrorism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 10:28 AM

Bobad:

EVERYONE CONDEMNS THE USE OF ROCKETS AGAINST ISRAEL.

What else is there to say on that subject?


On the other hand, some people support the use of violence against palestinians.


They have their opponents.

Hence a discussion.


Engage brain - simple point - easy to understand.


Obviously easier to stick fingers in ears and accuse the world of being anti semitic.


Do you support Israeli use of violence against Palestinians?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 11:11 AM

There is very little, if any discussion about the responsibility of the Western powers in this dispute - either of their role in manner in which the State of Israel was created in the first place, and in the more recent self-interested washing of hands of the affair, especially by the US which has all along bowed to the economic and political pressure of the friends of Israel.
Maybe the solution to the whole affair would be for somebody to discover oil there - that should get things moving in the West!
Keith - you and I have had more of our fair share of these arguments - I have no intention of entering into another blind alley discussion with you and nause up yet another thread - I suggest you follow my example and don't try to provoke one.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 11:22 AM

If IDF reply and kill a rocket firer, I would say that was justified self defence. - Keith

Gets translated to:

So the IDF only kills the rocket firer eh? - by Lox

Obviously in Keith's hypothetical example yes they do.

But come on Lox where's the proportionality in that?

If Hamas, or whatever perfectly deniable mushroom splinter group operating under Hamas's jurisdiction, indiscriminately fire rockets at Israeli civilians from Gaza in the hope of killing as many Israeli's as possible. Then the proportionate response surely is for the Israeli's to fire a rocket or an artillery shell indiscriminately at civilians in Gaza in the hope of killing an equal number.

If it works for them, as it apparently has since the Israeli's unilateral exit from Gaza, then who are we to complain. Let them get on with it, until maybe, just maybe, they realise how fuckin' stupid they are being.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 11:33 AM

Roberto
"don't forget Israel was within its pre-six day war boundaries in 1967"
I agree entirely, and when those conflicts were over the areas in question became occupied territory and a contentuous issue. Since then Israel has sought to expand its sphere of influence and had done so agressively.
Whatever past disputes may have been about, it is now about occupied territory, and will only be resolved by recognising that fact.
Britain should have learned that fact in Ireland and 88 years later, still hasn't and the issue still hangs like a Sword of Damocles.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Roberto
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 12:06 PM

The problem, Jim, is that Israel can't get peace in exchange for land as long as Israel's opponents aim to completely cancel Israel, there are no boundaries that Hamas recognizes as Israel's home, they just want to destroy Israel as the Arabs Countries and the Palestinians tried to do in 1948 and 1967, to name two important moments, not the only ones. They don't want Israel and a Palestinian State to live in peace. They didn't accept it in 1947, they are not accepting it nowadays. I agree with you that Israel must cede some land that it conquered when Israel won wars against its opponents, but I'd like you to agree with me that this land must be ceded in exchange for peace and mutual recognition. Otherwise, it would happen again what happened when Israel left Gaza, and got in exchange the rockets fired against its civilians from the Gazan territory. Of course, I'm aware that there are many extremists in Israel as well, and I think that keeping building settlements on the land that I hope will become the state of Palestine is unacceptable and blind. But you must have somebody to make a deal with and sign a treaty: Israel is without this counterpart since it was born.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 12:19 PM

>>The point must be made again too, surely, that Gaza is also a democracy ~ which fairly recently held elections ~ and elected Hamas ~ who are the ones firing the rockets: which can accordingly presumably be said to emanate with the avowed and explicit support of the majority of the population of Gaza. Is it not ∴ at least arguable that they have thus brought the IDF retaliation on themselves?

Just putting the point for consideration<<

If it is a point worthy of consideration then it applies in much greater measure to Israel. The Jews in Israel are a democracy, and many of the settlers near Gaza, not to live peacefully but to claim the land and and to provoke a response.

Keeping in mind that large numbers of the Israeli electorate support aggressive action to to expand the state of Israel thinking that though God has promised a greater Israel it is this generation's job to seize occupied land.

Religious fanatics do not want peace and they don't care who is destroyed to get in their way. The all think that they are Joshua. Blowing the trumpets, tearing down the walls and killing all of the occupants of the land God has promised them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 12:32 PM

Lox, are you sure, "This is important to me as it clarifies that everyone agrees that the rockets are BAD." ?

I asked Jim maybe 8 times, "Are the rockets attacks wrong, and should they stop."

You try asking him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 12:42 PM

Keith, Cast out the log from your own eye before pointing out the mote in his.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 12:51 PM

It is not me saying I am better or as good.
Lox started this thread to establish if anyone here justifies the rockets.
Jim has previously refused to say they are wrong, or that they should stop.

Lox needs that answer.
Ask him Lox.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 12:52 PM

"Religious fanatics do not want peace and they don't care who is destroyed to get in their way."

I believe this statement can be applied to all parties involved in the mideast problem .... not just Israel.

Religious Belief and Violence in the Middle East

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:00 PM

So:

Israel cannot blockade Gaza to keep those rockets that rockets we all agree should not be launched at Israel from coming in.

Israel cannot target the launch sites of those rockets we all agree should not be launched at Israel from being launched.

Hama refuses to exercise it's responsibility to stop those rockets we all agree should not be launched at Israel from being launched.



Please tell me what Israel is permitted to do? These rockets, rockets we all agree should not be launched at Israel, are a threat and act of war. The Palestinians have never agreed to peace OR the existance of the state of Israel, with ANY borders.

If Israel stops all blockades and attacks on Gaza, and the Gazans continue the rockets, will ANY here agree that the Israelis should use those nuclear weapons and destroy Gaza? If not, what does the Israeli posseion of them matter???? Israel has been attacked multiple times, by enemies that have declared they will be satisfied with nothing less than the destruction of Israel. Those nuclear weapons, ( not all of which are in Israel proper) are Israel's ONLY insurance that any attack that destroys Israel will be so costly to the attacker that they will hesitate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:03 PM

True enough Bill. But in this neck of the woods it is generally not applied to both sides. And for this particular conflict, I happen to believe that religiously inspired Israeli expansionism is the main driving force.

On the other hand I believe that the main driving force in the conflict with Al Qaeda is Wahabbist fundamentalism directed at the west, funded in major part by the Saud family and their cronies to keep their own population from seeking equity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:13 PM

Keith.

Jim hasn't expressed support for any of the violence.

If he does I will call him out for supporting killing.

You have come out in support of some of the violence (that committed by Israel).

So you are a hypocrite and a bigot.



Teribus,

So If criminals living in Gaza try to murder innocent Israelis then Criminals in Israel are right to murder innocent Palestinians in Gaza.


Right.


Now teribus condones the murder of Palestinians in Gaza too.



So far the only catters who publicly condone the use of violence are those who support Israeli violence against Palestinians.


So to recap,


Noone has taken issue with me on the matter of rockets being fired into Israel.

No one is supporting or condoning the killing of Israeli civilians or standing up for the right to fire rockets into Israel and kill Israeli civilians.


But at least 3 people support and condone the killing of palestinian civilians by Israelis and stand up for their right to do so.


Therefore - no argument about the rockets - hence the discussion begins and ends in a few short posts.

But there remains a big argument about IDF killing of palestinan civilians - hence the discussion goes on and on.


Everyone agrees that the Burmese Junta is BAD

Everyone agrees that Mugabe is BAD

Everyone agrees that Killing Israeli civilians is BAD

but there is disagreemant about whether killing palestinian civilians is bad.


In addition, there is disagreement about whether Palestinians deserve to be treated like subhumans or whether they deserve the same human rights as Israelis.


The picture gets clearer and clearer with each post.

Keep 'em coming folks.

Who else wants to stand up for Israelis killing Palestinian civilians.


How about Palestinian farmers shot at in their fields?

How about Palestinian fishermen shot at in their boats?

Is that all justified too?



Perhaps we should return to the rockets ...

... anyone suppirt the killing of Israeli civilians? ... no ... ok ... dead end there then ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:15 PM

"The Palestinians have never agreed to peace OR the existance of the state of Israel, with ANY borders."


LIE!


Deliberate misinformation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:27 PM

I dunno Jack .... The Holy Land has a way of destroying any rationality of thought, humanityt and trust when it comes to peace .... always has. I do believe if fanatics from all sides of the equation did not have their claws into politics, boundries it might be a different story.

Fanatics from all religions sow hate, conspiracies and distrust. They always have a nasty, evil way of achieving seats of power in any political organization and aligning themselves next to seats of corporate power.

As I said before ... if Arabs, and Jews sat down at the table to negotiate and did not see a Jew, or a Muslim facing them, peace and compromise could be achieved.

call me a dreamer ... but that is reality. Until the time comes when we can shake religion from governing our lives we will never see peace in the middle east.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:32 PM

"As I said before ... if Arabs, and Jews sat down at the table to negotiate and did not see a Jew, or a Muslim facing them, peace and compromise could be achieved. "

I agree wholeheartedly.

Political problems have political solutions.

Military solutions simply create worse problems.

They do nothing more than serve as vehicles of their executors arrogance by providing them with a way of getting what they want by force.

Force begets force.

An eye for an eye is not a maxim or a measurement, it is a prophecy!


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:37 PM

Israel will not stop until they have occupied the entire west bank and have put the Palestinians into exile or subjugated them as second-class citizens.
More settlements on what is left of Palestinian territory,, destruction of means of livlihood, destruction of Palestinian homes in Jerusalem, and eventual elimination of the Palestinian people from their small remnant of territory.
We are witnessing the destruction of a people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:38 PM

Keith - you continue your attempts to return this to a dialogue - please stop it
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:41 PM

Agreed Lox .... Military solutions are ancient solutions to political problems .... in ridding ourselves of these 'military soulutions' we need to strive for radical political structures.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:43 PM

It is pretty self-evident that the only people posting here who actually support and seek to justify the use of violence are those who ostensibly support Israel.

It is pretty obvious to anyone who sympathises with Palestinans that the use of violence disprortionately kills and injures them, and damages their hopes of a just solution.

It should be equally obvious to those who seek to support Israel that, while the numbers of Israelis injured and killed is far lower, the damage that is caused to the future hopes of Israelis by the resort to violence is enormous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:47 PM

A lot of Israelis will not stop until their borders reach from "Egypt to the Euphrates" and there are a lot of Americans, including members of the previous government, senior members of the armed forces and fundamentalists in other countries who to some degree feel the same was and publicly say so.

If you were in Gaza, oppressed all your life and knew this what would you do? Negotiate or try your best to stop them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:54 PM

Jim, I was not talking to you.
Lox, your OP asked "I am curious to know if anyone on the mudcat supports or defends the firing of rockets from Gaza into Israel."

Jim has defended it.
He has also refused to say it was wrong, or that it should stop.
The answer to your question is "YES TO BOTH, JIM."

Lox, you say I have come out in support of some of the violence, (that committed by Israel.)

That is not true, except that I defend any country's right to act in self defence, so I have to support Israel's anti rocket strikes.

How can that make me a bigot and / or a hypocrite?
You are just name calling.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:00 PM

In other words you say it is in self defence and on that basis you support it.

Do you support it all or just the very isolated and limited force that is used specifically against the individuals who have fired the rockets?

Because killing ciovilians who WEREN'T THE ONES WHO DID IT isn't self defence, its revenge.

Revenge is murder cold and cruel and is not any more or less justifiable than that which it avenges.

Only a tiny minority of killings of Palestinian civilians have anything to do with actual self defence.

1. You mislead when you talk about self defence.

2. You mislead when you say you dont support it Israeli violence.


I stick by my position.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:02 PM

"A lot of Israelis will not stop until their borders reach from "Egypt to the Euphrates""

And there is a lot who will stop the expanding borders. A lot of Israeli's that do not follow the consertative fanatics

If I was a Palestinian in Gaza ... I certainly would try to negotiate and not follow the current path of the Palestinian consertative fanatics.

If I was an Israeli, or if I was Palistinian I would strive for peace, hope and understanding ... I would not fall into the fanatical behive of hate, distrust and revenge. I would forget the past and build for the future.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:03 PM

Besides Keith,

Are you saying that you'll only condemn all the violence if Jim does?

Perhaps you'd like to run and tell the teacher that "its not fair"?

Why don't you grow up and take responsibility for your own views.

Now go to bed without any tea!


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:09 PM

Keith,

Is this the comment from Jim that you refer to?

"Yes - the Palestinians should stop killing and wounding Israelis, and the Israelis should stop killing Palestinians - but as neither are going to at the present time, what do people suggest the Palestinians should do to protect their homes and lives - turn the other cheek, surrender? "

Its the only specifically relevant comment that I can find.

Maybe you could read it as being support for the killing of Israeli civilians, but you'd have to use a bit of creative licence, whereas your comments very specifically support Israeli violence against Palestinian civilians.

Lights out and no book!


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:20 PM

"Israel will not stop until they have occupied the entire west bank and have put the Palestinians into exile or subjugated them as second-class citizens.
"

LIE!


Deliberate misinformation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,999
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:26 PM

"Yes - the Palestinians should stop killing and wounding Israelis, and the Israelis should stop killing Palestinians - but as neither are going to at the present time, what do people suggest the Palestinians should do to protect their homes and lives - turn the other cheek, surrender? "


Why not. You expect the Israelis to do that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:28 PM

On that point Bruce is right to be defensive.

It sounds a bit too much like the "protocols" for my taste - though it should be clarified that it is an opinion which I oppose. it is not information that I dispute.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:29 PM

Lox,
"Do you support it all or just the very isolated and limited force that is used specifically against the individuals who have fired the rockets?"

The rockets are fired by and on behalf of Hamas.
I regard retaliatory strikes against their activists as legitimate self defence.

The complication is that they surround themselves with living sandbags, all too many of whom become casualties.
I have seen no evidence that Israel targets civilians.
Lots of hype and hysteria, but no evidence.
If you produce any I will out shout you in condemning it.

Jim refused to say the rockets were wrong or should stop on the other thread.
That is why I am so interested in his response to your question.

In your quote, he asks a rhetorical question, the answer to which can only be that the attacks should continue.
"what do people suggest the Palestinians should do to protect their homes and lives"

He also said, "Condemning Palestinian retaliation out of context(??) is the same..."
He then lists a lot of things that he does not condemn.
So he does not condemn the rockets.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:49 PM

The whole self defence argument is a fallacy.

The problem with the rocket firers is that they do not operate from any specific base.

They fire from different locations each time.

then AFTER they have gone, the IDF fires on Gaza and civilians die.


So the bad guys get away to do it again ... hardly an effective form of self defence ...


So what other justification is left?

Retaliation.

Who dies.

Children.


I have seen mountains of evidence and receive more every day.


It isn't hard to find.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:01 PM

"Lox, you say I have come out in support of some of the violence, (that committed by Israel.)

That is not true."


However:

"I regard retaliatory strikes against their activists as legitimate self defence."

I can understand why you might feel driven to justify violence carried out by the "Israeli Defence Forces", Keith. But I cannot understand why you complicate matters be asserting that when Lox says that you do that, he is lying.

Talk about "unprovoked attacks" is self-deception. Every act of violence carried out by either side in this conflict is seen by it as an act of justifiable reprisal for acts of violence carried out by the other side.   There is no shortage of acts of violence against civilians, Palestinian or Israeli, which can be seen as justification for such reprisals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:29 PM

Keith - one last time
I regard the killing of any human being as evil.
Do I consider the Palestinian rockets more, or as evil as the behaviour of the Israelis? No neither - I regard the Israeli behaviour infinitely worse, given their superior fire power and the indiscriminate way they have deliberately used that superiority on a civilian population.
Do I think the shelling should stop? No I do not, in the present circumstances I think it would be a surrender and the Israelis would regard it as such. The Israelis have a rotten track record when it comes to Arabs in their care. At Shatila and Sabra refugee camps they participated in and quite probably instigated the cold-blooded massacre of somewhere between 850 and 3,500 refugees. I think it would be a total neglect of duty on the part of the Palestinian government to expose their people to such a well-proven risk - anybody here who doesn't?
When I have raised this 'incident' in past Keith has skidded round it at a rate of knots and the rest of the Israeli apologists have ignored it.
So, while I do not support per se the Palestinian bombardment, as things stand I regard it as very much the lesser of two evils.
Keith's question is a loaded one set in terms that cannot be answered honestly with a yes or no - equivalent of my asking him if he still beat his wife, yes or no.
Please let that be an end to our dialogue Keith and give others a chance.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:30 PM

Lox, consider the last air strike following the most recent rocket.
A Hamas rocket maker and a number of fighters killed.
If they were not surrounded by civilians that would be it.
Have civilian casualties been independently verified?
The Hamas medical training camp that Jim talked about.
I know that civilians do die.
I hate that but Hamas must share the blame.

McGrath, Hamas do not even claim that their rockets are reprisals for air attacks.
The opposite actually is true.
No rockets, no air attacks, no more killing.
Then negotiations might restart.

I will say no more about Jim.
If you wanted an answer you would ask him straight, but you do not want to put him on the spot, do you Lox?
So why bother to start this thread?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:31 PM

>>"A lot of Israelis will not stop until their borders reach from "Egypt to the Euphrates""

And there is a lot who will stop the expanding borders. A lot of Israeli's that do not follow the consertative fanatics <<

That is true enough Bill.

But the fact is that Israeli policy is being run by conservative fanatics.

But some people have no problem with punishing all Palestinians for the actions and words of the extremists. They have no problem condemning Palestinian other world leaders for NOT constantly condemning Hamas or The PA or even ordinary Palestinians for not actively stopping the extremists. On the other hand they reward the actions of Israeli extremists with praise and justifications. They employ the strategy that any argument that supports their side is justified, insist that the same standards NOT be applied to their side.

It makes discussions with them rather pointless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:34 PM

"The complication is that they surround themselves with living sandbags, all too many of whom become casualties."
Using your own questioning method.
Do you consider the killing of hostages acceptable in these or any circumstances - yes or no?
I understand the Israelis have been found guilty of using civilians as hostages in the past - do you condemn that, yes or no?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:40 PM

"I regard the Israeli behaviour infinitely worse, given their superior fire power and the indiscriminate way they have deliberately used that superiority on a civilian population.
"

When Israelis attack Palestinians, they kill some of them. You keep stressing the Israeli superiority, yet ignore the fact that they could kill many more than they do, from the numbers killed and th number that could have been killed.

When Palestinians attack Israelis, they kill as many as possible. They kill as many as they can, from all historical numbers.

So, Jim, you support those who seek to maximise death.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:50 PM

"So, Jim, you support those who seek to maximise death."
I suggest you compare the casualty figures before you make such crass statements Bruce.
As far as I understand it, the rockets are randomly fired and are incapable of being aimed accurately - the Israelis kill and injure as many as they think they can get away with in the public eye.
Don't suppose you'd like to comment on the Sabra and Shatila massacres would you (or add the casualties there to your above calculations maybe)?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:53 PM

Keith,

I havent hounded anyone.

You volunteered support for the Israeli killings without having been solicited.

I solicited everyone including Jim to see if they supported the Palestinian rockets.

I have had no "yes" as yet.

You have made your position your business unsolicited.

You have gone out of your way to support Israeli violnce.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:55 PM

Jim,
"Do you consider the killing of hostages acceptable in these or any circumstances - yes or no?"

It would be easy to say no.
That is what my heart says.
Hamas says, "We will kill your civilians, and you must not try to stop us or you might kill ours."
Human shields are not the same as hostages. Their use is a war crime.
In the end you have to strike at the civilian killers and just do what you can to minimise innocent casualties.

Straight answer to your question, in these extreme circumstances, some civilian casualties are acceptable.

Straight answer from you now.
Are the rocket attacks wrong, and should they stop?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,999
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:55 PM

It was likely a reprisal for the Damour massacre by Islamic Palestinians & Syrians. Hate begets hate. Figured you`d know that, Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:57 PM

>>When Israelis attack Palestinians, they kill some of them. You keep stressing the Israeli superiority, yet ignore the fact that they could kill many more than they do, from the numbers killed and th number that could have been killed.<<

I disagree with this. They are killing hundreds for every life they lose. I think that the evidence suggests that they are killing just as many as they think they can technically get away with. Yes, they could use Nukes instead of WP but then the world would HAVE to intervene. The IDF is walking a sadistic and cynical thin line.

That is the only plausible explanation for the enormous degree of disproportionate retaliation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:03 PM

Lox, "You volunteered support for the Israeli killings without having been solicited"

I have only ever supported legal use of force.
How can that be so wrong?

If you deny that I have never supported any illegal use of force, have the decency to specify it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:09 PM

Israel didn't have 1947 borders because Israel didn't exist in 1947. Israel has expanded its borders greatly since 1948, not just in 1967, and it's questionable what right they had in 1948 to the borders they took then. And whether they had the right to "Operation Clean Sweep" (as the ethnic cleansing in 1948 was called), resulting in hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees having their homes and lands stolen (in a manner sadly reminiscent of the way many European Jews had their homes and lands stolen just years earlier).

People who went on to become the IDF were murdering Palestinians [i]and British soldiers[/i] well before 1948. And vice versa, it must be admitted. The Palestinians had every right to feel betrayed by the Balfour declaration and the 1922 and 1939 White Papers (and the subsequent betrayal of the no-harm clauses) and everything that has followed from it.

I agree that at this late date it is time for the Palestinians to give up on the Vernichtung of Israel. Arafat and the PLO did in 1993. Hamas has yet to, and that's wrong.

Meanwhile Israel continues to chip away at the West Bank, as recently as THIS YEAR, leaving a pattern like Swiss cheese where the Palestinian parts are the holes. They continue to destroy Palestinian homes for their own ends, as recently as LAST MONTH. The Palestinian leaders have no monopoly on bad faith. Does Israel want peace? They sure as hell don't act like it.

The hardliners have been part of virtually every Israeli government since 1948. The nation has just handed off to the hardliners the right to decide who is or isn't a Jew, which is a huge thing because it determines who can emigrate there. It is likely that the Jews allowed to repatriate to Israel are likely to be more and more conservative from now on. The government is likely to grow more, not less, conservative. The arch-conservatives do believe that Israel has a natural right to all of "Judea and Galilee" (their term for what we call the West Bank).

While I can't condone rocket attacks on civilians, I certainly can understand the frustration and hopelessness that drives people to make them. Pity Israel's ass-lickers in the west can't understand that as well. Israel hasn't acted in good faith since 1948, and the people who became Israel haven't acted in good faith since at least 1918 (one could argue for much earlier). It's hard to imagine what could drive them to do so now. Until then the problem is indeed intractable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:10 PM

In this case "legal force" is what the people with the biggest guns say it is. No more, no less.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:11 PM

Not at all. The PLAUSABLE explaination is that Hamas does all it can to maximise Palestinian casualties, by launching rockets in or near schools and hospitals ( in violation of the Geneva Conventions). If Israel fires back AT THE LAUNCH SITE ( easily determined) they might catch to launcher still there- the alternative would be a massive, unaimed bombardment of the entire area- which would certainly produce a far larger civilian death count. IF Israel wanted to maximise civilian casualties,the nuber killed would be in the hundreds of thousands. Just look at one day's bombing of Dresden.

But a long as a state of war exists, there will be casualties- and it is the Palestinians who have refused to recognize Israel's right to exist.

Jordan signed a peace treaty with Israel- the only Jordanians being killed now are being killed by Palestinians.

Egypt signed a peace treaty with Israel- the only Egyptions being killed now are being killed by Palestinians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:18 PM

it is the Palestinians who have refused to recognize Israel's right to exist.

Repeating a lie doesn't make it true.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:20 PM

In the end you have to strike at the civilian killers and just do what you can to minimise innocent casualties.

If they were "doing what they could to minimise innocent casualties", far fewer innocent casualties would have been killed.

The IDF would appear to be as concerned to avoid civilian casualties as the people who fire those rockets. Not a particularly high priority. The difference being that, since the IDF have far more sophisticated weaponry, and far more of it, the number of civiian casualtiers they have killed is far higher.

Hamas do not even claim that their rockets are reprisals for air attacks. Leaving aside the question whether it is correct to identify Hamas as the ricket firers rather than other people out of their control, air attacks are hardly the only way in which Palestinians in Gaza and elsewhere have been killed by Israel, in incidents which would be seen as inviting reprisal.

Every dead Israeli damages Palestine. Every dead Palestinian damages Israel. That is the bottom line.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:28 PM

>>Just look at one day's bombing of Dresden<<

Thank you for so clearly making my point.

If Israel were to do that the US, UN and NATO would have no choice other than to take the arms out of the fanatics perpetrating such a horrible war crime. There did it in the former Yugoslavia, they can do it in the former Palestinian Mandate.

Though Israeli perpetrates hundreds of war crimes for every single one that Hamas perpetrates they have yet to cross that line. But given their reaction to the flotilla, I fear that a war crime great enough to make enemies of the whole rest of the World is not out of the question.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:43 PM

You'd think that history would teach the Palestinians to stop that shit. Israel isn't taking crap from them or anyone....and they DO have the right to defend themselves! That being said, Israel has the capacity to wipe them off the face of the earth..but they don't..a lesson that the Muslim Arabs might look at..but they don't.
History teaches us that man never learns from history......especially when you're locked up in a brain-dead, backward quasi-religious mindset. That is NOT to say this is true for all Muslims..just the radical morons who perpetuate this shit!
Benjamin Netanyahu, warned President Obama, the first day after he was elected, that Obama had two things he must do, and take care of..one, the economy, and two, Iran....because Israel was not going to stand by, and would launch a pre-emptive strike, against them, if it felt immanently threatened with their nuclear program...a very out front, serious threat, and warning. Any observer of the Mid East should know by now, that Israel is dead serious, and will do just exactly that! To sit there, and be 'appalled' now that this has happened, is evidence of 'not paying attention'.
Frankly, I support Israel defending itself. As far as the rest, they should be able to work it out...the roadblocks are NOT coming from Israel!
I'll avoid drifting too far, as requested. If you want to debate it, we should go to another, related thread.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:52 PM

Israel goes way beyond defending itself and attempting to "wipe the Palestinians off the map WOULD draw a military reaction from the rest of the world. At the very least the withdrawl of US aid and the imposition of UN sanctions against trade would make their state much less viable.

The current situation seems like a slow march to WWIII, It is not in Israel's interest to hasten that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 05:08 PM

Israel doesn't want to wipe the Palestinians off the face of the earth. Just out of the West Bank. Prove me wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 05:12 PM

Israel doesn't want to wipe the Palestinians off the face of the earth. Just out of the West Bank. Prove me wrong.

That's easy, they also want Gaza and parts of Syria and Lebanon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 05:20 PM

Jack,
"In this case "legal force" is what the people with the biggest guns say it is. No more, no less. "

Wrong Jack. It is about complying with The Law Of Armed Conflict."

McGrath,
"If they were "doing what they could to minimise innocent casualties", far fewer innocent casualties would have been killed."

How can you make that judgement Kevin?
How would you answer someone who says,"If they were not "doing what they could to minimise innocent casualties", far more innocents would have been killed?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 05:33 PM

If the Hammas group has only rockets that can cause little harm to Israel, (other than sow fear into the population) what is the purpose and or intended benefit of shooting them off at Israel? Lessons of history shows that Israel will retaliate in to a much higher level. Surely they know they cannot defeat Israel's military might?

Could the purpose be to seek considerable reaction from Israel?

What would the benefit of having Gaza homes and population impacted, from the retaliation, as we have seen?

Could they be using the impacted Gaza population to garner intervention, or sympathy from supporters, neighbours and the broader World community?

Could they stimulating Israel to acts that would contribute to a loss of credibility?

It is unlikely that they would be seeking friendship from Israel, or they believe they can win a direct military conflict with Israel.

What is the purpose of sending these rockets into the civilian population of a more powerful neighbour, one that you do not have a good relationship with already?


Can someone explain the intended purpose?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 05:45 PM

Good Post, Ed.
Think that they can figure it out?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 05:47 PM

As far as I know Hamas to the degree that it is an organized government is not currently firing rockets into Israel. The freedom flotilla has shown them that peaceful protest is more effective.

But box up three times the population of Washington DC in twice the area, starve them, destroy Police and other civic infrastructure, invade every couple of years and knock the crap out of other civilian infrastructure and you are bound to drive a number of young men crazy enough to exact any revenge they can regardless of the retaliation.

I would wager that many of them feel that Israel will continue to subjugate and attack no matter what they do so they may as well get their licks in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 05:58 PM

Jack,
"As far as I know Hamas to the degree that it is an organized government is not currently firing rockets into Israel"

You have special inside knowledge Jack?
Most people say that nothing happens in Gaza without Hamas say so.
But what do they know?
Right Jack.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 06:00 PM

"Box up three times the population of Washington DC in twice the area, starve them, destroy Police and other civic infrastructure, invade every couple of years and knock the crap out of other civilian infrastructure"


But, much of this seems to be a result of the years of distrust... at least partially initiated by suicide attacks, and rocket attacks on Israel.

When rockets from Lebanon reigned down on Israel through many campaigns, retaliatory destruction resulted, from the greater military power. When these stopped, Israel stopped retaliation...halting attacking, killing and destroying Lebanon.

If, in comparison, Taiwan started to shoot rockets into civilian, or otherwise, China, what would one expect the result to be? Would you expect China to negotiate, or shoot back in ruthless force, to encourage it to cease? Would China likely offer citizens of Taiwan land and increased access to the mainland? If you answer is yes, dream on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 06:25 PM

>>Most people say that nothing happens in Gaza without Hamas say so.<<

Most people do not say that. People who cannot comprehend the problems of governing 1.6 million people without any civilian infrastructure might say that.

You are implying that Hamas is better at stopping crime than any western country has ever been without the benefit of laws or a police force.   Come on Keith, you can do better than that.

My sources by the way are Hamas spokes people and a UN official I heard interviewed.

But Ed T's point is well taken. As long as the Flotilla's are focusing world attention on the plight of the Palestinians, there IS NO reason for Hamas to fire the rockets. And to believe that they have full control of the area with the might of Israel's IDF constantly disrupting what command and control they have and The Mossad constantly taking pot shots at their leaders is nothing short of a fairy tale.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 06:33 PM

>>When rockets from Lebanon reigned down on Israel through many campaigns, retaliatory destruction resulted, from the greater military power. When these stopped, Israel stopped retaliation...halting attacking, killing and destroying Lebanon. <<

Ed T you are leaving out that the UN brokered and through pressure forced that peace and that the retaliation leaving much of Lebanon in ruins, killing thousands of civilians and creating 1.5 million refugees was retaliation for the deaths of two. just two, Israeli combatants.

Ed, you seem to have guts and gumption. If your city had been under occupation and siege from before your birth I'd wager that you would be fighting that occupation rather than just sitting and taking it. I recon that most of us would.

I am not saying that violence is justified in any way. But it is part of human nature, especially among young men.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 06:48 PM

"Most people say..."

I would accept that the media in our countries tend to take Israeli press briefings as a reliable source of information on stuff like that. But I suspect that "most people" in most countries tend not to do so.

It could well be that some of those organising the firing of rockets do so in the expectation of producing responses by the IDF which will help make Israel seen as a pariah state. And equally one of the motives for Israeli shelling, bombings and assassinations is very likely to provoke the responses which will help ensure that Palestinians are seen as terrorists.   That's how the people who fear peace, on both sides, ensure that it never has a chance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 07:28 PM

"Ed T you are leaving out that the UN brokered and through pressure forced that peace and that the retaliation leaving much of Lebanon in ruins, killing thousands of civilians and creating 1.5 million refugees was retaliation for the deaths of two. just two, Israeli combatants".

Maybe, peace was brokered by the UN, maybe it was after people had enough of the mess and sought a way out. But, it is clear that a halt was only after Israel did alot of damage, human, property and infrastructure.

Regardless of anyones take on what caused it (I am sure there are many differing versions), and if it is related, the message is clear....mess with Israel and you will pay dearly in retaliation.

In that climate, is it not a given that if you send rockets into Israel, regardless of their damage, you, and your citizens should expect to pay dearly.

I suspect Georgia should have seen the result when they took agressive action against a greater power, Russia. The history books are full of lessons some never learn, including Japan in WW2 (I recall couple of nasty US blasts, with significant losses).

Maybe in a similar situation, I would take similar rebel action? But , with the lessons of history, I suspect I would have more common sense than to cause that level of suffering to my country and people.

Regardless, there should be no surprise that a response would be significant when one takes agressive action against Israel. In fact, I am puzzled why people far away from the conflict seem so surprised.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: bobad
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 07:34 PM

"In fact, I am puzzled why people far away from the conflict seem so surprised."

I'm not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 07:39 PM

The attack on the aid convey demonstrates that it doesn't need to be "aggressive action" to evoke a violent response.

If those Palestinians who are engaged in trying to turn the resistance against Israel into a campaign of nonviolent resistance can succeed in doing so, as I hope they will be able to do, I assume that, as in other nonviolent struggles against oppressive regimes, there will be a sustained effort to break nonviolent discipline and many deaths.

Violence is the friend of oppressors, whoever uses it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 07:54 PM

"...it doesn't need to be "aggressive action" to evoke a violent response"

Another good point, that is demonstrated through the history of conflict.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 07:54 PM

"Straight answer to your question, in these extreme circumstances, some civilian casualties are acceptable."
So there we have your support for Israeli policy in a nutshell - it is acceptable to kill hostages; doesn't that make the handful of victim so Palestinian rocket-fire also acceptable?
Brucie's silence on the Sabra Shatila massacres speaks volumes on his attitude to Israeli atrocities in taking part in the massacre of probably a few thousand refugees.
Chemical attacks and the bombing of hospitals and schools and the wall and the ghettos and the attempts at starvation and acts of piracy and the evictions and the seizure of land, and the ghettoisation........ and all the rest.
And you want us to condemn Palastinian rocket attacks - just about the only retaliation to all the shit thrown at them???
Where's the form and where do I sign?
And btw Keith - if you are still unable to read and answer in my reply, can I suggest a local nightschool class - and do you still beat your wife - yes or no?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 08:12 PM

Teribus,

So If criminals living in Gaza try to murder innocent Israelis then Criminals in Israel are right to murder innocent Palestinians in Gaza.


Yep that's right its called proportional response. And after what? 60 odd years you would have thought that both sides would have worked something out but WFT!!! They haven't - Guess they're on a slow learning curve. Either that or they are both sets of complete and utter fucking idiots, whose arguments should not be allowed to fuck up the rest of the world. And they should be told that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 08:28 PM

>>Yep that's right its called proportional response<<

An eye for an eye is proportional response. Destroying a country for two soldiers is called going apeshit and is anything but proportional.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 08:44 PM

Curious:

Where is it writen that could honestly be said to be "recognized" that:
"An eye for an eye" calls for a proportional response?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 08:50 PM

I said that eye for an eye IS proportional response, not that it calls for it.

An eye for an eye is pretty much definition of proportional response is it not? The response is equal to the offense. You take one eye, one eye is taken from you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 09:14 PM

With a response like that teribus, the only "fucking idiot" around here is you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 09:25 PM

Keep it coming folks ...

The number of people who support the killing of innocents is rising.

Who else wants to join the thugs and let their vile character hang out for the world to see?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 09:42 PM

Monday, August 2, 2010.
Jerusalem's municipal planning committee has granted approval for 40 new housing units in the Pisgat Zeevv settlement in occupied East Jerusalem.
Pisgat Zeeve is a settlement of around 50,000 people located north of Jerusalem.
The United Nations considers it illegal.

Israelis gnaw at Palestinian land bit by bit, a little here, a little there, and will not stop until they gobble up the whole.

The committee approved 1,600 new homes in the Ramat Shlomo settlement in Marchh, hours after Joe Biden, US vice-president, landed in Israel for talks.
Biden rebukrd Israel, but the US has done nothing to safeguard Palestinian rights.

One step forward, a half-step back, two steps forward, a little talk, then forward again ....

As I stated above, Israel will not stop until they control the west bank and stop all attempts at a free Palestine. Of course they want Gaza.
Lebanon will be next.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 09:50 PM

"An eye for an eye is pretty much definition of proportional response is it not? The response is equal to the offense. You take one eye, one eye is taken from you".

The term, (that goes far back in time) in its purist form may seem to mean what you suggest. But, one should not assume that your "proportional" interpretation is shared.

I expect there could be, and likely are, many different definitions, and interpretations....depending on a perspective.

For example, it is likely that a historic leader may interpret the value of "his eye" or the lives of "his siblings" as being greater than the eye or sibling of others in that society. Historically, eye for eye revenge has seen hugely disproportinarte retaliation.
   
Some have also put forward, that in some of our current Western societies, that the perceived value of a citizen of one country is seen as much greater then the value of a citizen of another. It does not take much tinking to come up with examples.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 09:55 PM

I suggest that the concept of "proportional retaliation" in conflict is a myth, and rarely seen.

More likely, each side choses to punish the other side, in a significant manner, to discourage the other side from repeating an action of agression, or to eliminate their ability to repeat the agression.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 10:09 PM

Certainly in the the conflict under discussion proportional retaliation is not possible. The Palestinians do not have the ability for it. The Israelis do not have the discipline. But that was my original response to Teribus using that term. There was certainly nothing proportional in what Israel did to Lebanon over two soldiers.

The responses from Israel are not proportional. They are terribly lopsided.

And if the Israelis never again shelled or shot another Palestinian, the occupation and theft of land and water is a terrible provocation by itself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 12:06 AM

"The current situation seems like a slow march to WWIII, It is not in Israel's interest to hasten that. "

Bzzztttt! Wrong!

If you believe that your special invisible magical sky fairy is gonna destroy the whole kit and kaboodle when he wants to any way, and take the true believers away to a much nicer place for ever and ever and ever - then Bring it on Baby!!

Not being an expert on Jewish religious philosophy, I can't say whether THEY believe THAT, but I CAN say that a rather large number of followers of His alleged Son DO - and as far as they are concerned - bring it on baby!

And they seem to have the ear of those who have their finger on "The Big Red Button To End Everything In Flaming Destruction" - which will "Give Him A Hand!"!

:-O


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 12:08 AM

"a massive, unaimed bombardment of the entire area"

You mean WP everywhere - oh they wouldn't do that,... eh, what?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 12:15 AM

>>>Not being an expert on Jewish religious philosophy, I can't say whether THEY believe THAT, but I CAN say that a rather large number of followers of His alleged Son DO - and as far as they are concerned - bring it on baby! <<

No, Armagedon is New Testament stuff. But there is something in their book about Israel stretching from Egypt to the Euphrates.

Look at that on the map and try to imagine the amount of war that it would take to make that happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 12:28 AM

"Maybe the solution to the whole affair would be for somebody to discover oil there"

Well there are allegations - I prefer not to say rumours - that there may be neat stuff somewhere in the south, under & near the dead sea...


"Israel founded Hamas to act as a bogeyman organization"

Sadly, this is almost believable - taking into account what happened in Afghanistan and the subsequent 'flowerings' of groups set up for the political convenience of another group, that then turn against their original founders.... :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 01:34 AM

What hope, what shred of evidence, do the Palestinians have that Israel wants to allow the Palestinians to live within their own borders in peace? When Israel chips away at the West Bank and East Jerusalem? When Israel destroys all infrastructure in Gaza and then blockades any building supplies from coming in? When Israel allows Lebanese militia to run amok in Palestinian refugee camps, murdering at will? When the little shit that allowed that IS THEN ELECTED PRIME MINISTER?!

WHAT POSSIBLE REASON does any single Palestinian have to believe Israel will ever deal with him in good faith? Will ever allow him to have his own land, free from Israeli oversight and potential military action up to and including invasion?

WHAT POSSIBLE REASON does any young Palestinian male have for anything other than despair? And despair makes people do foolish and desperate things.

You're 25 years old. You live in Gaza or the West Bank. For all your life and all the life of your parents, your country has been occupied by a foreign power which keeps it in subjection, while tearing off chunks and annexing it to itself. It takes away your home, destroys your only way of making a living. You have never been able to travel 20 miles in your own country without being stopped and checked and inspected by agents of the foreign power. From time to time the foreign power destroys all the homes on your street because somebody lobbed a homemade rocket from your neighbourhood into the territory of the foreign power.

Gee, why would you feel outraged? What possible reason could you have to want to retaliate? Why couldn't you plainly see that if you just left the foreign power alone, it would all come right and they'd magically turn into nice people, give all the land back, smile and pat you all on the back and let you live your own lives without constant fear of terror(ism) from themselves?

And still people say that whatever Israel wants to do "to defend itself", is okay. Israel has gone way past "defending itself" since 1948 and just doesn't seem likely to curb in its avarice or cupidity any time soon.

Oh, and should any f***heads want to call me an anti-semite, go pleasure yourself with a rusted farm implement. I will NOT leave a terrorist regime uncriticized because of evils done to the Jews over the last 2000 years up to and including today. Two wrongs NEVER make a right, no matter how wrong the wrongs are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 03:25 AM

Jim, my view on your "hostage" question is in line with the Law of Armed Conflict and is universally accepted. Except by you obviously.

You said "And you want us to condemn Palastinian rocket attacks"

No I do not. Everyone else already has. Only you justify them.

The old joke about beating your wife is that there is no option to say that you never started beating her.
The rockets started years ago.
Have they stopped rocketing civilians?
No.
And it is not a joke.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 03:45 AM

With a response like that teribus, the only "fucking idiot" around here is you.

Whatever you say Lox, but on the other hand, I am not one of the fuckin' eedjits running around the world blowing things up and killing people that I do not know and have never met.

But it is interesting to note your take on that.

WHAT POSSIBLE REASON does any single Palestinian have to believe Israel will ever deal with him in good faith? Will ever allow him to have his own land, free from Israeli oversight and potential military action up to and including invasion?

Tell your single Palestinian to go and have a chat with one of those nice Jordanians, or one of those nice Egyptians and ask how it worked out for them when they made their "land for peace deals".

WHAT POSSIBLE REASON does any young Palestinian male have for anything other than despair? And despair makes people do foolish and desperate things.

Despair? I thought all those young male Palestinians lived lives of eager anticipation, constantly buoyed up by all those promises of all the riches they have coming to them after they have slain all the Jews, or alternatively their thousands of servants and 72 virgins they will be given in the afterlife if they die a "martyr's" death. Were I a young Palestian male, or the father of one and one of those Hamas prats came up to me and suggested I, or my son, strap on a suicide vest to blow up a bus load of strangers I'd tell them in no uncertain terms "After you, show us how its done." Oh wait a minute I probably wouldn't be able to do that because they would kill my family in front of my eyes then hack off my head, with "protection" like that I'd tend to take my chances with the so-called enemy.

You live in Gaza or the West Bank. For all your life and all the life of your parents, your country has been occupied by a foreign power which keeps it in subjection, while tearing off chunks and annexing it to itself.

Would you be taking about the occupation that lasted from 1948 to 1967? As far as I am aware Gaza was handed back intact years ago, small detail I know but it helps to get things right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 05:31 AM

Keith - you have now advocated that the killing of civilian hostages is fine by you - summing up your humanity perfectly.
You are the only one here actively supporting the killing of civilians here.
By your own logic, if it is ok "in line with the Law of Armed Conflict and is universally accepted" for heavily armed and trained Israeli soldiers to kill hostages, then presumably you can not possibly object to randomly fired rockets in retaliation to the long-term violence against them - do I detect a slight whiff of double standards here?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 05:33 AM

Sorry - that should read You are the only one here actively supporting the deliberate killing of civilians here.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 06:13 AM

Jim this advice to military is provided by the Red Cross.
It explains my answer and my view.
Do you regard red Cross as advocating the killing of civilians.
If not, stop saying it about me.

Take all feasible precautions to avoid or at
least minimize death or injury to civilians or civilian property.

Before actually launching an attack that might affect the civilian population,
give advance warning, thus giving the population time to evacuate
or at least take shelter. The warning must of course be genuine and
effective. It must reach the civilians it was intended for. It must give
them enough time to react. Warnings can be given over the radio or
television, by dropping leaflets, or via the Internet. The attacker may
dispense with the warning if circumstances do not permit, namely when
the specific circumstances of the planned military operation do not make
it possible to inform the defender because the aim of the operation
could not then be achieved, for example if the element of surprise is
crucial to the success of the whole operation.

10 - OPERATIONAL RESPONSIBILITY IN DEFENCE
[ Slide 13]
In addition to the above-mentioned prohibitions and limitations on the
use of weapons and tactics applicable to all operations, those involved
in planning or conducting defensive operations need to take into
account the following requirements under the law of armed conflict.
To the maximum extent feasible, civilians must be moved away from
military objectives. The military should warn the civilian population in
advance and assist with its evacuation. If possible, civilians should be
taken to locations they know and which present no danger to them. Joint
civil/military cooperation might be required to provide food, transport
or even shelter for these civilians. Whenever possible, children should be
evacuated with their families.
Whenever possible, locate or set up your defensive positions well away
from populated areas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 06:16 AM

http://www.icrc.org/Web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/5P8EX4/$File/LAW4_final.pdf


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 06:30 AM

You (Keith A of Hertford) are the only one here actively supporting the deliberate killing of civilians here. says Jim Carroll.

Hell as like. Most here are justifying the indiscriminate targeting and killing of civilians by one side and condemning similar actions by the other side purely because that side does it more effectively.

They have been at this hammer and tongs for 60 years. The Palestinians say they are prepared to accept and are working towards a Two-State solution based upon pre-Six Day War Israeli Borders. This is in effect the solution that was offered to the Arabs by the UN in 1947. Had they accepted that then, there would have been no displaced people now demanding a "right of return" and thousands of lives would have been spared. Awkward question I know but an obvious one, "If it is acceptable now, why was it not acceptable then?" I mean really just what the F**k have they been playing at all this time? BUT hands up all those who think that if offered their Two-State Solution there would be peace in the Midle-East? NONE!! That's what I thought the answer would be.

Middle-East peace process!! It should after 60 years be scrapped, the next person to be given the Nobel Peace Prize for anything to do with the Palestinian/Israeli situation should be the f**ker who succeeds in provoking these idiots into a massive all-or-nothing- no-man-left-standing confrontation to sort the business out once and for all and the world in general would be a damn sight better off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 06:37 AM

1. Jerusalem's municipal planning committee has granted approval for 40 new housing units in the Pisgat Zeevv settlement in occupied East Jerusalem. Pisgat Zeeve is a settlement of around 50,000 people located north of Jerusalem.

What else were they going to use the land for?

2. As I stated above, Israel will not stop until they control the west bank and stop all attempts at a free Palestine. Of course they want Gaza. Lebanon will be next.

They wany Gaza?? I thought that they had given it back years ago?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 06:58 AM

Teribus,

1. You have failed to note who you are addressing.

Your quotes come from Mousethief's post - not mine.


So far consistent with you be a fucking idiot.


2. we exchanged the following views:

Me - "So If criminals living in Gaza try to murder innocent Israelis then Criminals in Israel are right to murder innocent Palestinians in Gaza."

You - "Yep that's right its called proportional response."



In so saying, you are effectively arguing that all civilians in a military conflict, men women and children, are legitimate targets.



This is also consistent with you being a fucking idiot.


It is also consistent and serves as compelling evidence of you sadistic, compassionless heart and your blind, partisan mind.


I remember a long time ago you warned me to "come loaded for bear" when debating with you.

I responded "I'll come loaded for Bull"


In fact, I should have come loaded for "fucking idiot"


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 07:00 AM

Jim, it is yet another lie to say I advocate the killing of civilians.
Your worst so far.
I just agree with Red Cross that civillians casualties should be minimised but accept that they can not always be avoided, especially when your oponent uses them as a shield.

Hamas rockets are packed with ball bearings to MAXIMISE civiilian casualties.
Premeditated and deliberate, that is murder.
You alone will not say that they should stop.
You alone advocate the murder of innocent civilians.
No lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 07:03 AM

Lox, if you think Terribus meant civilians are legitimate targets, it is you that is being idiotic!
Only Hamas and their supporters think that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 07:10 AM

Keith,

This is the exchange.


Me - "So If criminals living in Gaza try to murder innocent Israelis then Criminals in Israel are right to murder innocent Palestinians in Gaza."

Teribus - "Yep that's right its called proportional response."


That is as specific as it gets.


If the writing is too small, buy some reading glasses.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 07:16 AM

Keith, you have just answered my question regarding the killing of hostages with:
"Jim, my view on your "hostage" question is in line with the Law of Armed Conflict and is universally accepted. Except by you obviously."
If that is not suggesting that it is admissible to kill hostages - your reply is meaningless.
If not - the Israelis are again committing war crimes by deliberately killing hostages - which is it to be?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 07:36 AM

The Israelis have deliberately killed hostages (according to you), they have taken hostages and used them as human shields, and they have taken part the massacre of up to 3,500 refugees - you really should be more careful when choosing your friends Keith.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 07:42 AM

Jim, it is not suggesting, it is STATING that the International Committee of The Red Cross, The Law Of armed Conflict, AND ME accept reluctantly that civilian casualties are sometimes not avoidable.
Every effort should be made to minimise them, but sometimes it is unavoidable.
Compare that with you, who will not condemn the deliberate murder of innocent people, and their children, by shrapnel packed missiles.

Lox, you know he was making a point, and you are just trying to trivialise it because you can not answer it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 08:09 AM

Wrong Kieth.

All the points above are inspired dierectly or indirectly my my consistent argument that there is no justification for Killing civilians.

Teribus disagrees, not on the basis that you claim to disagree on, but on the basis that it constitutes fair reprisal.

Teribus has clearly stated that it is ok for Israel to Kill civilians as an act of equal and opposite retribution.

If you kill my kids, then I have the right to kill your kids in return.

In fact our responsibility is to protect all the kids as it has nothing to do with them.

And if one of us fails in that obligation, it does not mean that the other is absolved of it, it just means that the one who honours it has a harder job to do.

You are a hypocrite and so is teribus because you say Hamas are wrong to kill covilians, but the IDF are justified.

Hypocrites and Bigots both.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 08:24 AM

"You are a hypocrite and so is teribus because you say Hamas are wrong to kill covilians, but the IDF are justified"

It is easier to call names than debate, right Lox?

We all say it is wrong for Hamas to kill civilians, except Jim.

I say that IDF is different in that it does not deliberately target civilians.
Hamas does.
Also IDF tries to minimise civilian casualties.
By loading its rockets with metal shrapnel, Hamas tries to maximise them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 08:43 AM

Keith, I have seen so much evidence that what you say is wrong that I am not going to bother giving it to you as it is so easy to find and there is so much of it.

I am friends with residents of Gaza and in the same way that you and I talk about how we went to the prk today or had lunch yesterday, they talk about children and other civilians who have been shot or killed in other ways.

I'm sorry to inform you that the IDF does deliberately target civilians and they do a whole lot else besides as they revel in crushing the lives of ordinary people.

The state of Israel is deliberately meating out collective punishment on ALL the people of Gaza, and this includes the compassionless and brutal suppression of Gazans at large.

From what I have seeen, the logic seems to be pretty much as Teribus has described - an eye for an eye -> a child for a child ... or even a hundred children for a soldier.

Kieth, you exist in an isolated middle england world and have no comprehension of the subjects about which you speak.

I'm very glad you are niethewr a judge nor a politician ... then again it is clear that you are neither for very clear reasons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 08:47 AM

PS - I also have friends in Israel who hold a different viewpoint to me.

And I notew that we are still not discussing the rockets as noone disagrees with me that they are bad.

The only discussions I am involved with now are discussions defending Israeli violence, and they were not solicited by me, but were volunteered by you teribus et al.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 09:03 AM

"Keith, I have seen so much evidence that what you say is wrong that I am not going to bother giving it to you as it is so easy to find and there is so much of it."

That is very convenient for you.
I told you yesterday that if you would only provide such evidence (that is so easy to find) I would change sides and outshout you in condemning Israel.

(Individuals misbehaving does not count. All armies have such.)

Jim does not agree with you that Hamas rockets are bad, so you could continue that discussion if you wanted to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 09:17 AM

"Jim does not agree with you that Hamas rockets are bad, so you could continue that discussion if you wanted to."

Jim and I aren't having a conversation.

But I am curious to know if he disagrees with my opening post or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 09:23 AM

Ask him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 09:23 AM

For the record, I read his first post as meaning that he does condemn the violence, but that he understands how the palestinians could be puched to those extremes.

I too understand that, and I also understand how Israelis feel that they are a nation under threat.

That however does not equate to an endorsement of Violence and contrasts with your claim that shooting farmers and fishermen and children constitutes self defence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 10:00 AM

Hey Bobad,

In another thread you insinuated that IHH don't care about moslems in Pakistan, only about palestinians in Gaza.

It was the usual smear along the lines of 'if they are helping in Gaza but not pakistan then it follows that they hate Israel.

Well here is the link to the IHH homepage that confirms your deliberate attempt to mislead was based on a Lie.

Perhaps instead of asking your friends what they think IHH MIGHT do in Pakistan (prayers and good wishes was what your authoritative friend said wasn't it?) you shoulf check to see what IHH have actually done.

As is consistent before, during and after the freedom flotilla, they have been engaging (surprise surprise) in humanitarian aid.

But you and your music video pals would like us to believe that they are terrorists ... or at least that when they provide Aid to Gaza that they are Anti Israeli terrorists, even if they aren't when they provide it elsewhere.

The world does not easily get conned, and the Hasbara con is no exception.

The above link is from 2nd August.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 10:06 AM

"No, Armagedon is New Testament stuff. But there is something in their book about Israel stretching from Egypt to the Euphrates." JtS

Right you are! However, Egypt to Euphrates refers to the Isrealite/Judean Kingdom at its greatest extent in Hebrew Bible times. not as a template for conquest of the modern Middle East, let alone of the whole world. The portion of the river noted is in the north where it passes through what is now Syria...it does not refer to the Euphrates where it courses through what is now Iraq. The Egyptian border was roughly where it is today, where the Sinai Peninsula borders Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 10:22 AM

"Hamas rockets are packed with ball bearings to MAXIMISE civiilian casualties."

IDF shells are packed with white phosphorus to MAXIMISE civiilian casualties.

We can keep up this gibbering nonsense for ever, you know...


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 10:28 AM

Lox, I appreciated your post until I read,
"your claim that shooting farmers and fishermen and children constitutes self defence."

I think I am entitled to ask you to justify or withdraw that disgusting, false accusation.
I have come to expect it from Jim, but it is a new low for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 10:32 AM

Foolestroupe, if you read the piece by the weapons expert I provided, you will see that those smoke munitions are made so as to minimise casualties.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 11:29 AM

Would you be taking about the occupation that lasted from 1948 to 1967? As far as I am aware Gaza was handed back intact years ago, small detail I know but it helps to get things right.

Your idea of "handing back" is different from mine. I was thinking of them being able to have their own nation, control their own borders, trade freely with the rest of the world, stuff like that. Not gestures.

And I note you don't say anything about them handing back the West Bank -- because even you can't be so stupid as to try to spin that one. They just chewed off another chunk of it this week. Yum. THAT is commitment to peace. Yessir.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 11:42 AM

The rockets need to stop. Either Israel, defends itself, or they ask for outside 'help'..which means the war expands. This is not 'rocket science'..(no pun intended). You might note, that every time Israel gives in, to compromises, and gives concessions, Hamas or the PLO,,(etc), waits a while, and launches some sort of aggression. Instead of faulting the attacked, how about addressing the attack-ERS. Unless they stop, this may not end, unless Israel, out of frustration, and self defense, wipes them out. Is this what some of you want??? Nobody, in here, I believe, is not hoping or waiting for this bullshit to escalate...but if Hamas insists in lobbing in random rockets, that is exactly what is going to happen...What would you expect us to do, if Mexico, or Canada started the same shit?...just lob in a few, randomly at one or two of our cities??...Stare at the rainbows and toss flowers at them?????

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 11:52 AM

Well said GfS.

And of course makes sense

but

But it isn't going to fly with the gang in here.

I just know what the replies are going to be.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 11:54 AM

number 6: "But it isn't going to fly with the gang in here.
I just know what the replies are going to be."

Never underestimate the power, of stupid people in large crowds!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 12:07 PM

Lox where do I attribute mousethiefs quoyes to you? I was merely addressing them in general. What was interesting to take note of is that you appear to think it normal and rational for people to wander around killing one another but that somebody calling them idiots for doing so is an idiot themself. Don't you find that interesting Lox?

As to this little passage of yours (there see I have given you due attribution happy?)

Me - "So If criminals living in Gaza try to murder innocent Israelis then Criminals in Israel are right to murder innocent Palestinians in Gaza."

You - "Yep that's right its called proportional response."

In so saying, you are effectively arguing that all civilians in a military conflict, men women and children, are legitimate targets.

This is also consistent with you being a fucking idiot.


I was not aware that criminals do engage in military conflicts. Your are a bit of a fucking idiot yourself chum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 12:22 PM

Palestinians fire rockets indiscriminately from Gaza into Israel then the IDF should conduct area artillery barrages in return for say an hour. They should keen doing that, shifting target each time until the Gazans have had enough and stop firing rockets or handed over those responsible for firing the rockets.

Civilian casualties? The Israelis should state quite clearly that they will give as much consideration to civilian casualties as Hamas do. Everybody should be totally fed up with both sides in this pantomime, let them get on with it, let them slaughter one another wholesale until it is settled, they obviously do not have the wit or the desire to do anything other than what they have been doing for the last 60 years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 12:23 PM

"Of course they want Gaza.
Lebanon will be next. "


More lies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 12:25 PM

"Not being an expert on Jewish religious philosophy, I can't say whether THEY believe THAT,"


THEY don't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 12:28 PM

This link is somewhat off topic for this thread ... but what the hell this thread has swayed off topic regardless.

Good to see there is some sanity left in this world

I thought I would open a new thread for this ... but, it would probably end up as an Israeli bashing thread ... since we already have 2 Israeli bashing threads going on here in the Madcat I stuck it in here.

My intention with this is to exhibit that peace, rationality and tolerance is still with us in this world today. Maybe, just maybe this can catch on.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 12:35 PM

"I was thinking of them being able to have their own nation, control their own borders, trade freely with the rest of the world, stuff like that. "

You mean the 77% of Mandate Palestine given to them in 1923 as an Arab Homeland, where Jews were forbidden from settling?





OH, YOU mean that they should have ALL of Mandate Palestine, and the treaty that established it as a Jewish Homeland should be ignored?


Then please admit that Syria, Lebenon, Iran, Jordan, AND Israel should be dismantled, or admit that you are bigotted against Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 12:40 PM

Keith,
You and others have argued all along that the only reason that Israel fired into occupied areas is that this is where Hamas fired their rockets from.
Therefore Israel deliberately directed their fire into areas where they KNEW civilians would be = deliberately endangering the life of civilians in order to target Hamas fighters they claimed were there.
Even if Hamas had wanted to, they could not have deliberately targeted Israeli civilians as the weapon launchers and the circumstances in which they were being used were not capable of being aimed accurately. This makes the Israelis the only people to deliberately target civilians. There has been no evidence apart from Israeli claims that Hamas set up their rocket launchers in civilan area, so we have to take the word of people who have lied on a regular basis for it. It is just as likely that the claim has been invented to terrorise and drive out civilians in order to seize there land and property.
This is beside the point anyway - the Israelis deleberately targeted civilian area = war crimes against civilians.
The Israelis are the only fighters to have deliberately taken hostages and use them as human shields (happy to dig out the information if you are the slightest bit interested) = war crimes against civlians.
In 1982 the Israelis provided arms and transport to Lebanese Christian Phalangists and gave them access to the Shatila and Sabra refugee camps, enabling them to slaughter somewhere between 800 and 3,500 inmates.

"An hour later, 1,500 militiamen assembled at Beirut International Airport, then occupied by Israel. Under the command of Elie Hobeika, they began moving towards the camps in IDF supplied Jeeps, following Israeli guidance on how to enter the camps. The forces were mostly Phalangist, though there were some men from Saad Haddad's "Free Lebanon forces". According to Ariel Sharon, the Phalangists were given "harsh and clear" warnings about harming civilians.
The first unit of 150 Phalangists entered the camps at 6:00 p.m. A battle ensued that at times Palestinians claim involved lining up Palestinians for execution. During the night the Israeli forces fired illuminating flares over the camps. According to a Dutch nurse, the camp was as bright as "a sports stadium during a football game".
At 11:00 p.m. a report was sent to the IDF headquarters in East Beirut, reporting the killings of 300 people, including civilians. The report was forwarded to headquarters in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, where it was seen by more than 20 senior Israeli officers.
Further reports of these killings followed through the night. Some of these reports were forwarded to the Israeli government in Jerusalem and were seen by a number of Israeli senior officials.
For the next 36 to 48 hours, the Phalangists massacred the inhabitants of Sabra and Shatila, while Israeli troops guarded the exits and allegedly continued to fire flares at night."

Once again = war crimes against civilians, this time on a massive scale.
These are the people you are giving your support to and these are the people you are suggesting that the Palestinians should reliquish their arms and surrender to,
So far all you have said about the massacre is that "the Israelis should have stopped it"
I have never at any time supported the deliberate killing of civilains, but unless you condem all the above as war crimes, you have.
I await your response with some interest.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 12:58 PM

On September 15, King Hussein declared martial law. The next day, Jordanian tanks (the 60th Armored Brigade of the Jordanian Army) attacked the headquarters of Palestinian organizations in Amman; the army also attacked camps in Irbid, Salt, Sweileh, Baq'aa, Wehdat and Zarqa. Then the head of Pakistani training mission to Jordan, Brigadier Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq (later Chief of Army Staff and President of Pakistan), took command of the 2nd division.[12][13] However the Jordanians could not devote all their attention to the Palestinians. The 3rd Armoured Division of the Iraqi Army had remained in Jordan after the 1967 war. The Iraqi regime sympathised with the Palestinians, and it was unclear whether the division would intervene on the part of the Palestinians. Thus the 99th Brigade of the Jordanian 3rd Armoured Division had to be retained to watch the Iraqi division.[14]

Arafat later claimed that the Jordanian army killed between 10,000 and 25,000 Palestinians, although more conservative estimates put the number between 1000 and 2000.[15][16]


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 12:58 PM

Frantic thread creeping to avoid Lox's simple question Jim.
The massacres, whose details are still disputed, were nearly thirty years ago.
I have no idea what the hostage thing is about.

"There has been no evidence apart from Israeli claims that Hamas set up their rocket launchers in civilan area, "

Just go to google images and put in "rocket launch gaza city"

"Even if Hamas had wanted to, they could not have deliberately targeted Israeli civilians as the weapon launchers and the circumstances in which they were being used were not capable of being aimed accurately. "
They are accurate enough to aim at towns.
The towns are not military targets.
By replacing explosive with shrapnel they are intended tp kill and maim, not destroy structures.
It is ridiculous to say that civilians are not deliberately targeted.
They are, and you are the only person in the world, never mind this thread, I have ever heard make that ridiculous claim.

You have supported Hamas rocketing, so you have supported the deliberate targeting of civilians.

I do not support anyone who does that.

So we have Jim, the self proclaimed atheist, liberal, pacifist supporting war crimes committed by a right wing fundamentalist religious group.
You are a joke.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 12:59 PM

Estimates of the number of the people killed in the ten days of Black September range from three thousand to more than five thousand, although exact numbers are unknown. The Palestinian death toll in 11 days of fighting was estimated by Jordan at 3,400, while Palestinian sources often cite the number 10,000, mainly civilians, killed. Arafat at some point claimed that 20,000 had been killed.[20] The Western reporters were concentrated at the Intercontinental Hotel, away from the action.[citation needed] Nasser's state-controlled Voice of the Arabs from Cairo reported genocide.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 01:04 PM

To all the stupids:

Go over there and convince them!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 01:53 PM

Teribus - the fact that you see those involved knowingly in killing civilians as anything other than criminals betrays much about you that you are unaware of and will probably never be able to learn.


Sorry to disappoint you but you are going to have to seek a 'chum' elsewhere, the cap I have made for you fits only too well.


Keith, you say the IDF only acts in self defence.

The IDF also shoots at farmers, fishermen and children.

By your logic, that means that they do so in self defence.

As you support their right to do so, you therefore support their right to shoot farmers fishermen and children.


Its all derived from your argument so if its a slur, you only have yourself to blame.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 01:54 PM

"They are accurate enough to aim at towns."
Then Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were massive war crimes.
No you are supporting war crimes and the people who conntinue them.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Roberto
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 02:04 PM

Jim writes: "This makes the Israelis the only people to deliberately target civilians."

How can it be that a person sensible and sensitive, such as I'm sure Jim Carroll is, can write such things? How can you, Jim, dedicate so much time to this very important question, yet ignoring even the most basic facts about it? You get mad when someone brings up the charge of anti-semitism, but this non-stop forgery and hatred against Israel is not normal, give it a name. It goes beyond criticism, you depict Israel as absolute evil.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 03:11 PM

"You get mad when someone brings up the charge of anti-semitism,"
Roberto.
Keith and others - maybe even yourself, have claimed that the reason the Israelis have targeted Palestinian civilians is that Hamas have fired rockets from occupied areas and they have returned fire. I have never heard of a weapon that can kill only soldiers and not civilians, have you? You really can't have it both ways. The Israelis have fired on civilians deliberately.
And before you scurry behind your anti-Semitism accusation, I would remind you that Arabs are Semites and therefore, following your logic, any criticism of them might be construed as anti-Semitism were one of such a low frame of mind to make such an accusation.
Keith;
I have never supported the deliberate targeting of civilians - show me were I have.
I have said that the rockets are randomly aimed and are the only defence to persistent Israeli attacks with heavy weapons.
You appear to be working on the basis that if a lie is repeated often enough, somebody might just believe it. So far you seem to have no takers, but I'm sure Terribus is there to bring up the rear if needed.
"They are accurate enough to aim at towns."
Israel has not only bombarded, cluster bombed and dropped chemical weapons, it has rolled in with tanks and heavy weeapons, bombarded occullied schools and hospitals ad destroyed homes.
As I said earlier - compare the casualty figures to see who has targeted civilians the most efficiantly.
"The massacres, whose details are still disputed, were nearly thirty years ago."
There is only dispute on the figures killed - none whatever on the part played by the Israelis, and there is no moratorium on mass murder - same people, same conflict, time is not an excuse.
Simon Wiesenthal's oreganisation pursued Nazi war criminal for over half a century - should he have let them go because of the time lapse? If Mengele were found alive tomorrow he would be trid as a war criminal and if found guilty, sentenced and punished - quite rightly.
"I have no idea what the hostage thing is about."
Then read and learn, though it does have rather a lot of words so you might have a bit of difficulty.
Jim Carroll

The Al Mezan Center for Human Rights is a Gaza-based Palestinian NGO mandated "to promote, protect and prevent violations of human rights in general, and economic, social and cultural rights in particular, to provide effective aid to those victims of such violations, and to enhance the quality of life of the community in (Gaza's) marginalized sectors."
It monitors and documents violations, provides legal aid and advocacy, and helps Gazans on "fundamental issues such as basic human rights, democracy, and international humanitarian" matters. It also produces reports and publications on its work.
In April, it published a seven-case study update of its July 2008 report titled: "Hiding Behind Civilians - The Continued Use of Palestinian Civilians as Human Shields by the Israeli Occupation Forces." This article reviews both reports to highlight what international law unequivocally prohibits. Nonetheless, it's customary IDF practice even though Israel's Supreme Court banned it on October 6, 2005.
One Palestinian woman described her experience:
"They handcuffed and blindfolded me. Then, they forced us to move out of the room, pushing me with their hands and guns to move although I was blindfolded and pregnant. I heard them pushing others to hurry up as well. I got exhausted and fell down many times. I told them that I was four months pregnant and couldn't continue but a soldier threatened to shoot me."
Other witness testimonies related similar stories, at times with tragic consequences for its victims. Israel is a party to various human rights laws and conventions. As a result, it's obligated to respect and protect the rights of people it controls.
Under Article 3 of the UN General Assembly's 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR): "everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person."
Under Article 5: "no one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."
Under Article 9: "no one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile."
The General Assembly's 1977 International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) affirms the same rights. Under Article 17: "no one shall be subjected to arbitrary or unlawful interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence."
Both international humanitarian law (IHL) and international human rights law (IHRL) protect life, well-being and dignity. ILH deals with armed conflicts while IHRL applies to peace as well as war. Hague and Geneva Conventions comprise the main body of IHL, and strike a balance between military necessity and humanitarian considerations. As an occupying power, Israel is obligated under them.
Fourth Geneva protects civilians in war time, including those in Occupied Palestine. It restricts the use of force and prohibits seizing non-combatants as hostages, including persons who've laid down their arms or can't fight because of illness, injury or any other reason.
Article 34 states: "the taking of hostages is prohibited." Article 28 states: "the presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations." Article 29 states: "the Party to the conflict in whose hands protected persons may be, is responsible for the treatment accorded to them by its agents, irrespective of any individual responsibility which may be incurred."
Protocol I, Article 51, paragraph 7 states: "the presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favor or impede military operations." In other words, using civilians as human shields is prohibited under all circumstances.
Further, the International Criminal Court's (ICC) Rome Statute, Article 8 prohibits the "Taking of hostages." Israel isn't a Court member but is obligated under international law. Nonetheless, it flaunts it with impunity.
Al Mezan collected sworn testimonies of people's homes seized and used as military posts for days with their residents confined for prolonged periods, beaten and abused, prevented from normal activities, and put in harm's way.
Another practice was called the "neighbor procedure," later changed to "the prior warning procedure" to get around a Court prohibition. Israel commandeers civilians, has them knock on neighbors' doors, usually at night, to deliver military orders to submit to arrest. Hostages are put in harm's way when violence at times erupts that may result in deaths or injuries.
Finally the practice was banned, but Israel blatantly disregarded its own High Court ruling as well as its clear obligation under IHL. It continues to use civilian men, women and children as human shields.
During the Second Intifada (especially for Israel's large-scale West Bank Operation Defensive Shield incursion), Amnesty International (AI) said the following in October 2005:
AI "investigated tens of cases where the Israeli army used Palestinians, children as well as adults, as 'human shields' during military operations in towns and refugee camps throughout the Occupied Territories. Palestinians were forced to walk in front of Israeli soldiers who, at times, fired their weapons while shielding themselves behind the civilians. As well (they) were made to enter houses ahead of Israeli soldiers to check for explosives or gunmen hiding inside, to inspect suspicious objects, to stay in their houses when Israeli soldiers took them over to use as sniper positions, or to enter the houses of wanted, possibly armed, Palestinians to tell them to surrender to Israeli forces."
B'Tselem reports that Israel routinely uses "human shields (as) an integral part of the orders received by Israeli soldiers...." Al Mezan documented "dozens of cases" in Gaza in spite of specific High Court prohibitions, usually at times of incursions. Case studies below refute Israeli claims about respecting civilians, not using them as shields, and abiding strictly according to international and its own case law.
Israeli officials lie. As standard practice, they seize Palestinian civilians randomly, including women and young children, then force them into harm's way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 03:37 PM

" Article 28 states: "the presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations." Article 29 states: "the Party to the conflict in whose hands protected persons may be, is responsible for the treatment accorded to them by its agents, irrespective of any individual responsibility which may be incurred."
Protocol I, Article 51, paragraph 7 states: "the presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favor or impede military operations." In other words, using civilians as human shields is prohibited under all circumstances."



So, the use of schools and hospitals as military centers, and as launch sites for rockets is prohibited??

Please say yes or no:


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 04:04 PM

"Please say yes or no:"
Yes they are - but we only have the reports of the Israelis that they were being used as such. According to the BBC documentary on the incursion, doctors, teachers and other eyewitnesses denied categorically that they were being used for this purpose when the Israelis bombarded them with heavy artillery while the patients and pupils were still inside.
So this would have been a war crime on the part of the Israelis, wouldn't it? - please say yes or no.
The Shatila and Sabra massacres were crimes against hiumanity colluded in and probably instigated by the Israelis.
Please say yes or no.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 04:10 PM

You mean the 77% of Mandate Palestine given to them in 1923 as an Arab Homeland, where Jews were forbidden from settling?

OH, YOU mean that they should have ALL of Mandate Palestine, and the treaty that established it as a Jewish Homeland should be ignored?

Then please admit that Syria, Lebenon, Iran, Jordan, AND Israel should be dismantled, or admit that you are bigotted against Israel.


I can't find the part of the 1923 Mandate that set aside 23% of Mandate Palestine for the Jews -- I'm sure I'm just overlooking it. Can you point me to that?

Why would the Palestinians have agreed to have 23% of their homeland given away to foreigners? In a time when colonisation was being roundly denounced in public fora, a brand-new colonisation was introduced. "Here, let us take chunks of your land and move a bunch of people from around the world to settle there without your say-so." Yeah, how odd they didn't agree to that.

WHAT treaty established a mandate for a Jewish homeland? Balfour? Churhill's White Paper? Those weren't treaties. No Palestinians signed them.

The thing about Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Jordan, etc., is that they are populated by and large by Syrians, Lebanese, Iranians, Jordanians -- not people shipped in from other parts of the world. Israel stands alone as a (mostly) European colony in the Middle East.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 04:40 PM

Lox,
"The IDF also shoots at farmers, fishermen and children."

Individuals within all armies misbehave.
If you have any evidence that IDF targeted those civilians without a legal military justification I will withdraw at once.
I do not believe such evidence exists.
I do not support any such thing and you have gone beyond the bounds of acceptable debate to say that I do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 04:48 PM

Jim,
"I have never supported the deliberate targeting of civilians - show me were I have."

You have supported the rocketing.
It is dishonest to claim they are "defensive."
The rockets are not fired off randomly, they are aimed at the towns within range.
Everyone knows this, and sees your dishonesty.

You are being dishonest when you say the rockets are not intended for civilians. It is a lie. You will find no body or organisation in the world to agree with you.
You are a sad joke.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 04:53 PM

IF there were no launchers, it would have been. So, you are saying that the radar plots showing the launchers are false?

If the return fire is radar controlled, it will impact the launch area. Regardless of what the biased witnesses have to say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 05:17 PM

"It is dishonest to claim they are "defensive"
Prove it; where is your evidence?
Your silence on everything else proves categorically that you are the supporter of war crimes.
"So we have Jim, the self proclaimed atheist, liberal, pacifist supporting war crimes committed by a right wing fundamentalist religious group."
The difference between you and me is that you have thrown your weight behind the Israelis, and I support none of them.
I said way back that I have no trust whatever in any political body which is tainted by religion "a volatile mixture" I think I phrased it.
Hamas was elected by the Palestinian people who felt that the previous Government was not giving them the protection they needed. As far as I'm concerned, Hamas is a buffer between the people and Israeli terrorism, no more.
You, on the other hand, have attempted to disguise Israeli terrorism with lies, distortions and evasions. You have ignored the evidence put before you and where you have had to put your money where your mouth is you have gone to great length to hide and explain away the atrocities - pretty much in the same way as you supported the religious fanatisc in Northern Ireland and the massacre of unarmed demonstrators in Derry by absolving Army officers from any responisbility for the actions of their men (whatever happened to 'the buck stops here?)
Now - let's hear it for the Shatila and Sabra massacres hip-hip.....
Brucie
"Regardless of what the biased witnesses have to say"
In matters like this all involved are open to the accusation of bias - it is a case of looking at as much evidence as possible and making up your own minds.
Teachers - doctors, nurses media cameramen and reporters making it up?
Sorry, I'll go with them rather than a regime that has lied and has been exposed as liars time and time again (oh, and has consistently used heavy weapons and chemicals on civilians and has been filmed doing so).
You choose your side I'll choose mine
And the Shatila and Sabra massacres - or are you going to chicken out like Keithie?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,John on the Sunset Coast--
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 05:49 PM

mousethief, if you really are interested in the British Mandated Palestine (as I believe you are), and its division into Palestine and Trans-Jordan, later the Kingdom of Jordan, and now just plain Jordan, I have provided a site:

unimaps.com/jordan-pal1923/print.html

I also suggest that you read for historical context, A PEACE TO END ALL PEACE, by David Fromkin; if not the whole tome, at least the last half from about page 253 in my trade pb edition. It may still be in print...I note there is a Kindle edition...or your local library can get a copy for you. It is an outstandingly good book, which covers WWI, and the establishment of Mandates and new Nations in the Middle East after the war. While the book ends at about 1925, it is easy to see how that world got to where it is today.
Sorry about Guest posting. I am on my laptop, and have forgotten both my password, and the email account I set up from years ago on my Desktop machine.

John otSC


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 06:02 PM

So, the 'stupids' are arguing that it is OK to lob missiles into Israel, and its wrong for Israel to retaliate, and fire back, to stop the missiles????? Israeli civilians being hit is OK??? ..but it's a war crime if co-lateral damage is done by Israel's more accurate, not randomly fired missiles? Maybe the other dumb asses should think of that BEFORE they lob their missiles!...oh they did??...but don't give a shit???...oh-h-hh-h-h, I get it now!!

Here's your song!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 06:56 PM

""The IDF also shoots at farmers, fishermen and children."

Individuals within all armies misbehave.
If you have any evidence that IDF targeted those civilians without a legal military justification I will withdraw at once.
I do not believe such evidence exists."


Of course, you are at a disadvantage, because Aussie FTA SBS TV which shows the multiple foreign language TV news & current events shows is UNCENSORED and readily available nearly 24 hours a day - often I see the film anything up to a day before it 'filters' thru the conventional media.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 07:07 PM

No -we argue that targeting civilians with chemical weapons - is an inhuman war crime and is not justified by other war crimes, should they be proved such. What do you say?
The Israelis are the agressors and have bene for a long time.
As our friends have fallen silent on Shgatila and Sabra perhaps you might like a shot (or is that the wrong word?) andmaybe prove you are not a "stupid"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 07:10 PM

"Foolestroupe, if you read the piece by the weapons expert I provided, you will see that those smoke munitions are made so as to minimise casualties. "

Truly Sir - your bowels are crossed - you speak utter shit!

I did the Fireworks Pyro Course (oh - fireworks don't hurt people - they are only designed to go bang and sparkle!) Loony! I know how dangerous such things are - I got the warnings lectures and had to regurgitate the technical details!

Not only that - I know what happens when a 4 inch star mortar shell goes off in close proximity to humanity - I heard the explosion from my house when the young girl was killed at the fireworks display (causing immediate suspensions of issuing of all new pyro licences - which is why they did not issue mine at the time!) just up the road - one of the guys on the very course I did insisted that just because the legislation said that you could still use steel mortars and didn't HAVE to use plastic ones, that he would continue to do so - the shell jammed, took off his foot and killed a girl in the audience - outside the legal minimum safety distance.

I can only reply - W*anker! hahahaha!

Pull the other one - it plays Jingle Bells!


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 07:13 PM

"Foolestroupe, if you read the piece by the weapons expert I provided, you will see that those smoke munitions are made so as to minimise casualties. "

I agree, there are nowadays very few casualties in the MAKING of them...


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 07:54 PM

Keith,

Jim said:

"The difference between you and me is that you have thrown your weight behind the Israelis, and I support none of them."

I think that clearly answers the question in my original post.


So all that remains to be discussed is support for the IDF.



As for the constant comment by IDF and their supoorters that they try to minimize casualties, I'm not sure if they are using the word "minimize" in a statistical/numerical sense, but more in a literal/physical sense, as in: 'the casualties had all been well and truly minimized'


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 08:39 PM

unimaps.com/jordan-pal1923/print.html

You seem to have mistaken Transjordan with Palestine. Should all the Palestinians have left Palestine and moved to Transjordan? Why? What right did the British (or French) have to carve these areas up so? What right did they have to tell the Palestinians to yield to a Jewish National Home? Is it just argumentum ad baculum? Might makes right?

Let alone the treachery to Lawrence's Arabs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 08:46 PM

By the way, thanks for the book suggestion, but as I've just now (last night) finished a book on the Palestine-Israel crisis, and my "to read" stack is longer than my arms and yours put together, it will probably be a while before I come back to books on that subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 09:17 PM

Mousecrook,

"You seem to have mistaken Transjordan with Palestine."

NO. If you cannot bother to understand the roots of the area, you have no right to talk about it.



Mandate Palestine, as defined by the San Remo conference, as signed by the Allied Powers and Turkey as the successor of the Ottoman Empire, consisted of the area NOW included in Israel, the West Bank, and Jordan. It was NOT supposed to be divided.

Great Britain ( The Mandate Power) decided that the Jews and Arabs could not live peaceably together, and THEY divided the Mandate Palestine area into Transjordan ( 77%) as the Arab Homeland, where NO Jews would be allowed to settle, and a shrunken Palestine (23% of the original Mandate area) to be the Jewish homeland as specified in the 1921 Treaty. This was in proportion to the relative populations at that time.

http://reference.allrefer.com/encyclopedia/S/SanRemC.html

http://reference.allrefer.com/encyclopedia/S/Sevres-T.html


http://reference.allrefer.com/encyclopedia/L/LausanneTr.html

So, IF you claim that the parties did not have the right to such "nation building", you are attacking the basic existance of Lebenon, Syria, Iran, Jordan, AND Israel. In addition, invalidayting the peace treaty that ended WW I would bring into question MOST of the boudaries of the modern world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 10:19 PM

"Great Britain ( The Mandate Power) decided that the Jews and Arabs could not live peaceably together, and THEY divided the Mandate Palestine area into Transjordan ( 77%) as the Arab Homeland, where NO Jews would be allowed to settle, and a shrunken Palestine (23% of the original Mandate area) to be the Jewish homeland as specified in the 1921 Treaty."

Sounds like the old story about India and (East & West) Pakistan...


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 12:02 AM

you have no right to talk about it.

Dude, put your dick back in your pants. I'll talk about whatever I feel. If I have made mistakes, you can point them out to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 01:01 AM

"You seem to have mistaken Transjordan with Palestine"

I don't think so, mousethief. While I'm not a cartographer or demographer, I can read maps quite well, especially those that are as well keyed as this one. It clearly shows that Palestine, until 1921, consisted of the area now known as Jordan.

Did you bother to read the five paragraph summary?

It is true that post-WWI Britain, France and the nascent Soviet Union changed the face of Central & Eastern Europe, much of Africa (primarily stripping Germany of its colonies there), and, of course, in the Middle East, where there had been only one independent country other than the Ottoman Empire, Persia (now Iran). Basically, only the Americas escaped their blue pencils.

It happened again after WWII when the United Nations partitioned Korea, and SE Asia, the British and French empires collapsed; the USSR dropped the Iron Curtain over most of Eastern Europe for nearly half a century. But those things are outside the scope of this thread.

Your question about who gave them the right to do these things really has no bearing. They did it because they could do it, and that has been true in every epoch in history. If we were to arbitrarily put things back as they were, when would that be? 1945? 1914? 1848? 1789? 1492? 404? Some time Before the Common Era (or BC in lay terms)?

History grinds on inexorably.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 01:04 AM

So, bring that stupid fight here?? Listen to you!
People have the right to defend themselves...it's part of LIVING, you know, like, SELF PRESERVATION, and REPRODUCTION...and you want to argue about who has a RIGHT to do WHAT to who, for whatever stupid reason!!????.....You OBVIOUSLY, either have been in a war zone, or lived in a place trying to raise a family, where bombs just fall out of the sky, at random..for 'made up' reasons, that in themselves are STUPID!!...Based on OLD HATREDS!

Missile lobbers???

and...   ..and arguers...(note the woman)...

Think about it.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Roberto
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 02:48 AM

Jim writes: "I would remind you that Arabs are Semites and therefore, following your logic, any criticism of them might be construed as anti-Semitism."

Words and terms have a story behind, you can't play with them ignoring that. The term "anti-semitism" was born in Germany as another way of saying anti-judaism, that is not simple "criticism", as anybody with a minimum knowledge of history knows. Some Arabs played an important part in the story of anti-semitism, for instance with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, al-Husseini, allied to Hitler.

Jim writes: "the Shatila and Sabra massacres were crimes against humanity colluded in and probably instigated by the Israelis.
Please say yes or no."

The question was not for me, but I'd like to answer: yes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 03:15 AM

Lox's question in his OP,

"I am curious to know if anyone on the mudcat supports or defends the firing of rockets from Gaza into Israel"

Jim supports and defends them as "defensive".

Here is one of his posts from last night.
thread.cfm?threadid=131208&messages=188&page=1&desc=yes#2959006

If you have not already, read it through.
Jim is so screwed up with hatred he is unable to be rational on this subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 04:02 AM

Your question about who gave them the right to do these things really has no bearing.

It does on the question of why the Palestinian Arabs have felt put upon by the existence of the State of Israel (and the Jewish National Homeland before it) at all. Yes, the world has moved on, you are right. The Nation of Israel is a fait accompli and there is no turning the clock back to 1917 or 1921 or 1947. (Or 1966 or, or, or....) However no solution will be found to the problems of this region if the attitude brought to the table is "just get over it." People don't work that way. It might be nice if they did; but then they wouldn't be people they'd be something else.

(Consider the truth-and-justice hearings in post-Apartheid South Africa. People need to be heard, and need to feel that their concerns are acknowledged.)

Re. the 5-paragraph summary. Yes, I read it. I am not sure you did, however. It does NOT say that the original mandate was divided into Jews on the left, Arabs on the right. I quote:

The mandate, gave the British virtually a free hand in administering the territory. By September, the establishment of "a Jewish national home" in Palestine was explicitly excluded from Transjordan, and it was made clear that the area would also be closed to Jewish immigration.

This does NOT say that everything east of the Jordan was to be the Jewish National Homeland. Only that no part of Transjordan was to be included in the JNH (if I can abbreviate). After 23 September 1922, "Palestine" referred to those lands west of the Jordan, and "Transjordan" those lands east of the Jordan, and they were treated as two separate mandates, albeit under the same High Commissioner (Source). There were still Palestinians west of the Jordan at that time and it is disingenuous to suggest that the British at that time intended all of Palestine (new i.e. post 23.09.1922 definition) to be the JNH.

We can talk about the unfolding of the JNH in Palestine and the Arab resistance to Jewish/Zionist immigration if you like. It's a complicated history (as you know) and it certainly isn't given much attention by most of the bloviators on the crisis. But those who don't learn from history, etc.

But really nobody has addressed my main point: the State of Israel has shown by its actions, as recently as this week, that it's not interested in peace with the Palestinians as equals, if at all. Every time they bite another chunk off the West Bank and fill it with Jewish settlers, they drive home that point. Is there a ne plus ultra point? Will they stop stealing the Palestinian West Bank when they have "settled" 50%? 75%? 90%? When will they stop?

I don't see how any independent observer can draw any other conclusion than that it is the intention of Israel to ultimately "settle" all of the West Bank, bit by bit. At least the ultra-Orthodox are honest enough to say it outright: they quite plainly say that all of "Judea and Samaria" belongs to Israel. When they (the State of Israel) finish what they started in 1948 with "Operation Clean Sweep", and all the Palestinians (with the possible exception of Gaza; at this point who can say?) are driven out of what they consider "Eretz Yisroel" (sp?), then maybe they will truly be interested in peace. If it isn't too late.

ALL THAT SAID: Lest anyone (by which I mean anyone, not necessarily the people I'm responding to in this post) should want to tell lies about where I stand: I deplore the killing of innocent people. The rockets into Israel, and the suicide bombers, and any other form of attacks on Israeli civilians, have got to stop. Period.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 04:29 AM

"Is there a ne plus ultra point? Will they stop stealing the Palestinian West Bank when they have "settled" 50%? 75%? 90%? When will they stop? "

This game was played in Western Europe in the 1930s..... didn't use the "N" word...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"From: Keith A of Hertford

Jim is so screwed up with hatred he is unable to be rational on this subject. "

Animal Farm: "The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 06:21 AM

No Keith,

Jim stated that he saw Hamas as having been voted for by palestinians to serve a purpose, and he interprets their reason for voting for Hamas as being to instate a "defensive buffer against Isael".

He observes that those firing the rockets do so in the belief that they are defending themselves and that those who support them also believe that that is what they are doing.

He does not say that HE defends Hamas or the use of rockets.


You on the other hand go further than to observe that Israel believes it is acting in self defence. You actively support Israels actions, and you hold a partisan view that Israel is only acting in self defence.

On that basis, you refuse to condemn the violence equally.

You condemn Palestinian violence and support Israeli violence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 06:31 AM

Lox, he said that as well.
We had this exchange.

Jim,
"I have never supported the deliberate targeting of civilians - show me were I have."

Me
You have supported the rocketing.
It is dishonest to claim they are "defensive."

His reply is in the post I linked to.
He said it was not dishonest to say they were defensive, and demanded proof from me that they were not defensive.

You are wilfully refusing to see that your friend is the only one here who supports and defends the rocketing of Israeli civilians.

I do think that Israel has acted in self defence, but I keep an open mind.
I will reconsider if any evidence is produced.
Too many here believe evil of Israel without evidence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 09:13 AM

"but I keep an open mind."

I can see the wind blowing thru...


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 10:44 AM

Just like the missiles going into Israel, and for similar reasons, were the planes that went into the Twin Towers defensive???? Would you call the train station bombing in Spain defensive? London? Lockerbie, defensive?? The hotel in India? The club in Singapore defensive?? Jihad, defensive?????? No!!! It is aggression against a culture and or religion that is other than their particular brand of horseshit!..No more, no less!...and the hatred between the Muslims and Jews has been going on for THOUSANDS of years. Recognized it for what it is, and stop painting it with the broad, often inaccurate brush, of some 'left' idealism. It is what it is, and probably will not end, until there will be massive bloodshed, in the Middle East, and spread to the rest of the world...which it already is!....and one side annihilates the other. ALL of this is needless, and will go on IF they continue their rationalizations of the 'right', to lob missiles, or planes, or bombs, or suicide bombers, aimed at civilians!!!...and to take that stance, that it is justified, you might as well be doing it yourselves!!...but then, it's easier to be an armchair diplomat, who is or has been to afraid, to actually be in battle, so instead, you form opinions about everybody else doing it...as long as it ain't you!
If those Muslims want their homeland, and for that homeland to not be used as a base, to launch attacks at their neighbors, their 'goal' might be accomplished sooner....but that IS NOT their goal. Irradicating Israel is. World domination under Sharia law is. FUCK 'EM! They can damn well learn to live in peace with ALL of us....or face the consequences!!
They want to taget civilians? they want to target Israel?..and hide in their mosques, and behind innocent civilians, because they expect the rest of the world to 'respect' the laws, that the rest of the world set up..and not attack those places..while they attack innocent families, women and children????..with utter disregard?....They can all go to hell!...and congrats to Israel or anyone wanting to help them with the trip!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 10:48 AM

I say that IDF is different in that it does not deliberately target civilians.

Sadly that does not appear to be true.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 10:53 AM

Give us a break Lox.
We have all read his posts, except the long ones obviously.
Why not ask him straight?
Say "Jim, do you defend the rockets or support them?"
Why not Lox?
You must have wanted to know for sure, or why start this thread?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 11:24 AM

McGrath:"Sadly that does not appear to be true."

Yeah, Especially when the missiles are coming for well populated civilian areas. It's called collateral damage.

See my prior post, as to why that happens, and then explain why, you feel Hamas is firing from behind civilian cover.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 11:24 AM

200


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 11:35 AM

1. I asked everyone (including Jim) in the first post.

2. Jim isn't my friend - I would add he isn't my enemy either ... we have merely never had anything to do with each other - you have more of a relationship with him than I do.

3. My understanding of the post to which you refer is that Jim claims that Palestinians who fire rockets believe they are doing so in self defense, and that there is no way of proving that they are lying.

He also states that he does not support them or the Israelis.

You similarly make the observation that Israel believes it is acting in self defence.

You go further though as you add that you support Israeli attacks on Gaza on this basis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 12:33 PM

Lox, please do not get sucked into the ramblings of this abusive brain-dead, this is not a personality clash, it's a discussion. If you want to see an earlier performance of his, look at previous threads he has despoiled.
I have never at any time supported the deliberate targeting of civilians.
I am unhappy at the idea that anybody should kill anybody, but I believe that, as the bombardment is the only opposition shown to an aggressive terrorist state, the west having opted out due to self interest, to cease the bambardment would be a total surrender to them.
They have more than proved, to my satisfaction anyway, that they are capable of the mass-murder of those who oppose them. I have asked of Keith, Bruce and others who support the Israelis to comment on the massacre and so far only Roberto has had the bottle to reply.
Of course bombing people is evil, whether it be Israelis, Gazans, or the people of Coventry, Dresden, Hiroshima... or anywhere civilians happened to be in the firing line of a war. Regarding this issue, the bombardment is very much the lesser of two evils - that is not support, that is a pragmatic analysis of how things stand at present, and very different to Keith's 'support-by-silence' of the Israeli atrocities.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 12:46 PM

As you see, it is very unfair to accuse Jim Carroll of supporting the firing of the rockets. What he has clearly just stated is that he doesn't think they should stop firing them. There is a difference, apparently....which of course may be too subtle for everyone to spot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 12:55 PM

Roberto;
My point on your persistant accusation of 'Anti-semitism' was that if the response of racism is raised whenever we criticise anybody outside our own race or culture, we would be forced to ignore the behavior of all the monsters of the world - Stalin (Russian), Mugabi (African), Pinochet (Latin American), Duvalier (Latin American), Bush (American)... you name them, we can't touch them for fear of being branded racists by people like you.
So far this has been about what the Isralis have done and are still doing - not their ethnic origins.
Some of the greatest and most vociferous critics of the Israelis have been Jewish, including several of my friends. Are they anti Semitic?
Is the American Zionist newspaper which exposed the viciousness of the incursion and the use of phosphorus, anti-Semitic; or the Rabbis helping and siding with the people of Gaza? Is Mordacai Vannannu, who alerted the world to the fact that this terrorist state possesses nuclear capability, making it a world threat (and went to jail for his trouble) an anti-Semite?
Anti Semitism is a disease which is strengthened by the over and incorrect use of the term, plesae do not be one of those who assist it.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 01:17 PM

The rocketing of civilians is a war crime and is not defensive.

I also believe that those who do it think they are justified.
I do not have to support or defend the rockets myself because of that.

Jim defends and supports the rockets.
He just said so again.
You have your answer.
No one except Jim supports or defends the rockets.
He does both.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 01:21 PM

Jim, you keep on about those 30 year old massacres.
What relevance have they to "Hamas rockets fired into Israel"??

I did state my view on them, to you, on 21st July.
I repeat,

The massacres were truly deplorable. Israeli forces should have intervened to prevent them. They were disgraced by it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Roberto
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 01:24 PM

Jim, I haven't made any accusation of anti-semitism in my last post you answer to, but I've remarked that it is a futile word game to say that the Arabs can't by definition be anti-semitic because they are semitic. The Jerusalem Mufti didn't let your word game frighten him, and gave an enthusiastic help to Hitler in his extreme anti-Judaic, or anti-semitic, delirium. Anti-Judaism and Anti-Semitism are synonymous terms, you must know their history and not play with words and deny the facts behind the words.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 01:44 PM

Greg - I take your last posting to be an ironic one - a little to subtle to be effective in my opinion.
I believe Israel's aggression needs to be opposed. I would prefer that opposion to be peaceful, through economic and political means. For the reasons I have stated, that has not happened and the atrocities continue.
I do not believe, as has been incredibly naívly suggested, that the cessation of the only present opposition to the Israeli's expansioninst gallop would bring them scurrying to the conference table - far from it - it would be regarded a triumph and it would be a victory for the 'might is right' philosophy they have adopted.
It would put the Palestinian people at risk and the fact that it is a nuclear power, it would put the world at risk though its possible pursuit of further territory.
I believe Israel to be a terrorist state (no-one here as put up a serious challenge to that view) and the fact that it is heavily influenced by fundamentilist religion, makes it just as much of a threat as any of the muslim states.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 01:46 PM

Roberto - don't necessarily agree, but will happily change the term to anti-Arab - the argument still applies.
Keith
Piss off please
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 02:28 PM

Jim,
"I believe Israel to be a terrorist state (no-one here as put up a serious challenge to that view) "

All we could do to challenge your view would be to list none terrorist things they have done.
And that would be silly Jim.

YOU need to put up some evidence for your view which we could then challenge.

Evidence has been in short supply from your side so far.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 02:47 PM

"....we could then challenge."
Keith, would you please refrain from speaking for other people.
Others may disagree with me but you appear to be the only one who doesn't understand what I am saying.
The royal 'we' is the perogative of H.M. and Mrs Thatcher - you appear to be on your own.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 03:00 PM

So, you think that everyone except me believes Israel to be a terrorist state?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 03:11 PM

So, let me see...

1. EVERYONE agrees the Hamas rockets are bad.

2. Said rockets are by themselves war crimes

3. The use of civilians to shield military operations ( such as launching the rockets by Hamas) is a war crime.

4. Israel has the right to defend it's citizens by military attacks against those rockets, which are prohibited by international law.





And the conclusion is that ISRAEL is wrong when it targets those launchers, and civilians are killed??????????

And the conclusion is that ISRAEL cannot blockade Gaza to prevent those rockets from being brought in ( and then uased against Israeli civilians)??????

WTF?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 03:39 PM

All we could do to challenge your view would be to list none terrorist things they have done.

A bit like saying thgat it's wrong to decrib ethe Yorkshire Ripper as "a murderer" because he also did lots of other things as well as murdering women.

Terrorism is a technique which is adopted, when it suit,s them by a range of organisations, which also do a lot of other things. Including governments. Including the Israeli government.

Obviously not everything that the Israeli government does involves terrorism - but then the same is true of Hamas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 03:55 PM

No McGrath.
If I do not believe it is a terrorist state, what evidence can I put up?
The evidence HAS to come from those who DO think it a terrorist state.
They just have to give one irrefutable example of Israeli state terrorism.

Like you earlier saying it is not true they act in self defence.
I can only give examples of them acting in self defence.
Why did you not give some examples of them not acting in self defence?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 04:15 PM

1. EVERYONE agrees the Hamas rockets are bad.
Yes, as are the chemical weapons dropped on Gaza and the destruction and killing that took place there by a far superior force with access to far more lethal and effective weapons.
2. Said rockets are by themselves war crimes -
Since when have rockets been judged war crimes any more than any other weapon?
3. The use of civilians to shield military operations ( such as launching the rockets by Hamas) is a war crime.
If that is true yes, but we only have the Israeli word that this is the case. Not so with the similar Israeli action in deliberately using captured Palestinians as human shields
4. Israel has the right to defend it's citizens by military attacks against those rockets, which are prohibited by international law.
Are rockets prohibited by international law - our parrot friend tells us that civilain casualties are to be expected in war, and this certainly hasn't bothered the Israelis too much.
The Palestinians have an equal right to defend their citizens, especially against an enemy with the Israeli track record of slaughter and destruction - including deliberate mass murder (which you have yet to acknowledge).
So where does that leave us - with a political problem to solve rather than demanding that one side lays down their (somewhat meagre) arms
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 04:26 PM

2. Said rockets are by themselves war crimes -
"Since when have rockets been judged war crimes any more than any other weapon?"

Area mass bombardment antipersonnel rockets are prohibited by the Geneva conventions, as being specifically targetted at the civilian population.

4. Israel has the right to defend it's citizens by military attacks against those rockets, which are prohibited by international law.

"Are rockets prohibited by international law - our parrot friend tells us that civilain casualties are to be expected in war, and this certainly hasn't bothered the Israelis too much."

THIS TYPE of rocket is prohibited.

You seem to think civilian casualties are ok, when they are Israelis. I know that can't be true, from your statments, so it must be deliberate ignorance that lets you post like this.

Those civlian casualties DON'T bother Hamas very much- or they would not violate international law to lauch their illegal rockets from schools, hospitals , and such ( which is a war crime I do not see you making ANY call to prosecute)


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 04:30 PM

"More than 25,000 terror attacks on Israel alone (September 2000 - May 2006) killed 1,103 Israelis and injured 7,520."


So, since that is almost as many as the attack on Gaza, Israel has the right YOU give Hamas- to violate the law without being held to account.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 04:31 PM

"The damage caused by these rockets is evident in a series of photos taken by Lenny Maschkowski, a professional independent photo-journalist from Haifa, who has documented the impact of the rockets: "It's amazing how far these little ball bearings go," he says. "They have a deadly radius of around 600 meters [some 1,950 feet]." His work provides a chilling reality to the damage and horror inflicted by these rockets. "


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 04:33 PM

Operation Cast Lead (December 27, 2008 - January 18, 2009) was launched after 8 years of relentless terrorist attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip (including 3 years following the 2005 complete disengagement and pullout from Gaza) by Hamas and its associated organizations. The links below provide a background for the operation as well as video documentation that illustrates how Hamas initiates attacks using human shields in the midst of heavily populated areas and use hospitals, schools, and mosques for storage of ammunition and to purposefully attack Israeli civilians. Much has been written on the use of "disproportional" force; typically these are one-sided calls aiming at Israel to cease fire but not directing the same calls to the terrorists. While the loss of uninvolved civilians is regrettable a country has a right (indeed an obligation) to defend its citizens.



Some critics (including a number of prominent Israeli writers and columnists) have expressed opposition to the use of force simply because Israel is known to be "strong." The position of such critics (even if in some - and only in rare cases - is well intended), reveals a complete moral bankruptcy and short-sightedness that verges on irresponsibility (when well-intended) and malice (when ill-intended). After all, what exactly does it mean to be "strong" if power cannot be used? Why have a military if it is never to be used? To negotiate is admirable but where is the limit a society should place on the lethal mixture of not having a negotiating partner and yet having 8 years of bombardment on a large portion of its civilian populations? How much restraint should a state exercise against terrorists who use human shields to shoot at civilians? Do nothing because uninvolved will be hurt? If so, why not just acquiesce to the terrorist and let them have whatever they want? What can Israel negotiate with Hamas whose declared goal is the absolute annihilation of all of Israel? Or should such negotiations be carried out with Iran for which Hamas and Hizbullah serve as proxies? After all, Iran carries the nuclear threat with the same goal and not just against Israel.



Because issues of morality and justification are integral to policies that democracies formulate and carry out, it is important to shed some light on the legal and moral aspects in connection with this operation. The fact that democracies try to set high standards to avoid hurting civilians does not seem to impress the critics. Short of Israel committing suicide perhaps nothing will. Perhaps even that may not placate those who vow to kill Israel as they will claim that they were deprived of the opportunity to do so themselves. Therefore it is important to point out the critics' false morality on one hand and the justification for the operation on the other. The articles by Dershowitz, Friedmann, Gerson, Harari, Kramer, and Yemini highlight important elements of legitimacy, legality, and moral justification.

http://www.cjgsu.net/initiatives/Terrorism%20and%20Warfare.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 04:39 PM

"Since when have rockets been judged war crimes any more than any other weapon?"

As BB said, it is deliberately striking at civilians that is the crime.

"our parrot friend tells us that civilain casualties are to be expected in war,"

That is true. But you must try to minimise them and you must not deliberately cause them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 04:40 PM

"The keystone of the law regulating conduct of hostilities is the principle of distinction, which requires parties to a conflict to distinguish at all times between combatants and civilians. Civilians and civilian objects may not be attacked, and operations may be directed against only military objectives.[32]
Military objectives are combatants and those objects which "by their nature, location, purpose or use make an effective contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture or neutralization, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military advantage."[33] In general it is prohibited to direct attacks against what are by their nature civilian objects, such as homes and apartments, places of worship, hospitals, schools, or cultural monuments, unless they are being used for military purposes. An area of land can constitute a military objective if it fulfills the above criteria.[34]"

http://www.hrw.org/en/node/10911/section/5


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 04:43 PM

Or do you now claim that launching rockets against Israel is NOT a "military purpose"???


I know you think that children's birthday parties and discos are military targets, since the Palestinians have attacked those with no protests from you. But I hope that you are not saying "All Israelis are military targets, and all Palestinians ( regardless of their actions) are civilians."


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 04:47 PM

"In addition to direct attacks against civilians, international humanitarian law prohibits indiscriminate attacks. These are attacks "of a nature to strike military objectives and civilians or civilian objects without distinction." Examples of indiscriminate attacks are those that "are not directed at a specific military objective" or that use means that "cannot be directed at a specific military objective."[37]
One form of prohibited indiscriminate attack is area bombardment. Any attack, whether by aerial bombardment or other means, that treats as a single military objective a number of clearly separated and distinct military objectives located in a city, town, village, or other area containing a similar concentration of civilians and civilian objects is regarded as an indiscriminate attack and prohibited. Similarly, if a combatant launches an attack against a populated area without attempting to aim properly at a military target, it would amount to an indiscriminate attack.[38]
"

So Israel, which targets the launch site, is accused of violating what Hamas, which launches area bombardment rockets, does violate with every rocket??


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 05:01 PM

"Area mass bombardment antipersonnel rockets are prohibited by the Geneva conventions, as being specifically targetted at the civilian population. "
And it is yet to be proved that they have been 'deliberately targeted' or are capable of being with the weapons at hand.
Anything the Palestinians might be guilty of, the Israeilis have exeeded ten-fold
"I know you think that children's birthday parties and discos are military targets,"
In that case, I know that you are in favour of the massacre of between 800 and 3,000 refugees. Don't be silly, and please don't sink to Keith's level - one eejit per thread is quite enough.
It seems our basic differences are that I would like to see the conflict resolved fairly while you want 'the other side' to surrender and 'fess up' to all the atrocities.
You have never once acknowledged, to condem or dispute, the atrocities and war crimes committed by the Israelis, and appear to wish to proceed with the blame game.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 05:22 PM

Jim,
"You have never once acknowledged, to condem or dispute, the atrocities and war crimes committed by the Israelis, and appear to wish to proceed with the blame game."

This thread is about the rockets Jim.
How can you ask for proof they are targeted at civilians?
They are aimed at ordinary towns full of ordinary people, and most of them hit those towns.
They are designed to kill and maim.

How can anyone acknowledge atrocities and war crimes they are not aware of?
You presumably are aware of some.
Put them up, one at a time, and see if they stand up.
But not in this thread obviously.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 05:39 PM

If you can't sort out war crimes from these last two threads you're thicker than I took you for - you can only repeat things so often.
And once again you are attempting to confine a thread into your own narrow band of perceived knowledge.
As I said before, piss of, this time without the please.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 02:42 AM

Since nobody has risen to contradict or disprove them, I will take it that all her accept my points as stated.

Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 03:04 AM

Mousethief, not sure.
Jim, I ask for evidence of war crimes and you just crumple and resort to abuse.
For you, the belief in Israel's evil has to be a matter of faith.

You keep on about chemical weapons use, meaning wp smoke.
I have produced hard evidence that the type used is not a chemical weapon, is legal under all protocols, agreements and conventions, and is not intended to inflict casualties.

You have produced nothing to support your view, and you never will because only on planet Jim is it regarded as a chemical weapon.

This thread is about current events in Gaza, That is why you are the only person talking about 30 year old events in Lebanon!
And, when I humour you and give you my honest views (repeated from 29th July) you just tell me to piss off!


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 03:31 AM

Mousethief - agree entirely.
Both sides of the conflict are fighting a battle which involves them using dirty tactics (as did the Americans and VietNamese, The Brits and the Irish, Indians, Kenyans, Cypriots or whoever they might happen to have been fighting in order to keep colonised - even the Jewish people themselves fighting to establish a country.
Committing war crimes and complaining that the other side is doing the same, whether it be true or not, is like Goliath whining that the stones David is using in his sling are too big and contravene the articles of hand-to-hand combat.
What we have here is Palestinian rockets versus tanks, planes, cluster bombs, chemical weapons, mass-murder, deliberately used hostages as human shields, a blockade, a wall... all at the disposal of the Israelis and used freely against militants and civilians alike, to annex territory.
Suggesting that the Palestinians give up the barrage is a demand of immediate surrender and so far only one eejit has suggested that this would stop the seziure of territory and bring the Israelis to the conference table, every other Israeli supporter is demanding that the Palestinians throw in the towel and bow to Israel's superior strength - simple as that.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 03:55 AM

Or, stop the murderous rocketing and start negotiating.
It worked for Egypt and Jordan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 04:47 AM

Jim, Mousethief said,"I deplore the killing of innocent people. The rockets into Israel, and the suicide bombers, and any other form of attacks on Israeli civilians, have got to stop. Period. "

And you agree with him "asolutely"
Welcome to our world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 05:17 AM

Never said otherwise - it's just how it is stopped - that is what this is about. Abject surrender isn't one of my options, nor is it one of Mousethief's unless I have misjudged him - if I have, then I disagree.
Point scoring, no matter how pettily and distortedly, really is your thing, isn't it?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 06:39 AM

No Jim. he said they should stop unconditionally.
And you agreed "entirely"

You had not bothered to read it had you!
Just as you did not read Emma's, and duplicated it!

But I am the eejit, right?

Shall I piss off now Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 06:54 AM

Who are "they"?

"On Friday a Grad Katyusha rocket fired from Gaza landed in Ashkelon, causing no injuries. It is not clear who was behind the firing. It is reasonable to assume it was not Hamas but one of the rogue organizations in the Gaza Strip identified with World Jihad or Al-Qaida.

In retaliation, Israel attacked three Hamas targets, killing a senior Gaza Strip operative.

Israel holds the Hamas government responsible for every firing incident, even if the organization did not carry it out and is not behind it."


From   Haaretz.com Sat, August 07, 2010


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 07:11 AM

McGrath,
Another fell on Sderot the next day, hitting a therapy centre for disabled children.
These rockets are not home made.
They came in through the tunnels.
Hamas controls the tunnels and taxes all imports through them.
People who defy Hamas in Gaza end up dead.
The rockets were not fired in defiance of Hamas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 07:44 AM

Keith,
This is what Mousethief said and this is what I agree too.
If you are trying to score points, make sure you are aiming at the right dartboard.

What hope, what shred of evidence, do the Palestinians have that Israel wants to allow the Palestinians to live within their own borders in peace? When Israel chips away at the West Bank and East Jerusalem? When Israel destroys all infrastructure in Gaza and then blockades any building supplies from coming in? When Israel allows Lebanese militia to run amok in Palestinian refugee camps, murdering at will? When the little shit that allowed that IS THEN ELECTED PRIME MINISTER?!

WHAT POSSIBLE REASON does any single Palestinian have to believe Israel will ever deal with him in good faith? Will ever allow him to have his own land, free from Israeli oversight and potential military action up to and including invasion?

WHAT POSSIBLE REASON does any young Palestinian male have for anything other than despair? And despair makes people do foolish and desperate things.

You're 25 years old. You live in Gaza or the West Bank. For all your life and all the life of your parents, your country has been occupied by a foreign power which keeps it in subjection, while tearing off chunks and annexing it to itself. It takes away your home, destroys your only way of making a living. You have never been able to travel 20 miles in your own country without being stopped and checked and inspected by agents of the foreign power. From time to time the foreign power destroys all the homes on your street because somebody lobbed a homemade rocket from your neighbourhood into the territory of the foreign power.

Gee, why would you feel outraged? What possible reason could you have to want to retaliate? Why couldn't you plainly see that if you just left the foreign power alone, it would all come right and they'd magically turn into nice people, give all the land back, smile and pat you all on the back and let you live your own lives without constant fear of terror(ism) from themselves?

And still people say that whatever Israel wants to do "to defend itself", is okay. Israel has gone way past "defending itself" since 1948 and just doesn't seem likely to curb in its avarice or cupidity any time soon.

Oh, and should any f***heads want to call me an anti-semite, go pleasure yourself with a rusted farm implement. I will NOT leave a terrorist regime uncriticized because of evils done to the Jews over the last 2000 years up to and including today. Two wrongs NEVER make a right, no matter how wrong the wrongs are.
"Shall I piss off now Jim? "
Please do
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 07:57 AM

He has made 6 posts on the subject since then!
Did you miss ALL of them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 10:47 AM

It seems conceivable that Al Haaretz, based in Israel, might have more reliable sources of information when it comes to the responsibility of Hamas in these rocket attacks than Keith.

Rockets fired at civilians are pretty evidently, in objective terms, a way of helping those elements in Israel who want continued conflict and fear peace. (No doubt the people who fire them think they are somehow helping the Palestinian cause.)

On the other hand non-violent resistance is a serious danger to such elements in Isreal- and it is treated as such. And it gets ignored by our media.

Here is an extract from this site, outlining a week of such activities earlier this year:

Let's begin our weekly report with the non-violent activities in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Palestinians all over the West Bank and Gaza marked this week land day with protests as well as planting olive trees. Troops attacked those protests killing one child. IMEMC's George Rishmawi has the details:

Palestinians marked Land Day in several areas in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip with agricultural activities and protests against the wall and settlements that are being built on Palestinian lands.

During the land day protest in Gaza Strip, people gathered at the Israeli-built wall near the Rafah international airport in the southern part of the strip. Troops opened fire at civilians killing 15-year-old Mohammad Al Faramawi.

At the same time, another protest marking land day was organized in Khan Younis town, south east of Gaza Strip. As protesters reached the buffer zone near the borders, soldiers stationed there opened fire at the protesters injuring 16 civilians. Among those injured was nine-year-old Ra'ed Abu Namous who was hit with a live round to his head, medical sources reported.

In the West Bank Israeli soldiers attacked Land Day protests with tear gas and dozens were treated for the effects of tear gas inhalation. In Beit Sahour, near Bethlehem, hundreds of school students and international supporters joined farmers and planted olive trees on lands threatened to be taken over by the Israeli military and settlers. Similar actions were organized in Nablus and Salfeet, northern West Bank, where Parliament Members and international supporters joined the farmers and planted trees in their lands.

Palestinians mark the Land Day after events dating back to March, 30th 1976. Clashes erupted near the Palestinian town of Sakhneen, in response to the Israeli government's plans to expropriate thousands of Palestinian-owned acres of land. A general strike and protests were organized in Arab towns from the Galilee to the Negev, met with severe violence from the Israeli police killing six Palestinians and wounding hundreds.

Also this week, Israeli police and troops detained 10 people during a protest at the Wall-gate separating the southern West Bank city of Bethlehem and Jerusalem. The protest took place on Sunday as local Christians marked Palm Sunday. Protesters demanded free access to Jerusalem and the freedom of worship in the holy sites there. Israel denies Palestinians free access to Jerusalem since 1991. Israeli authorities allow few thousands only with special permits to enter Jerusalem that are rarely granted.

On Wednesday the Israeli military court of Ofer ordered the release of all ten Palestinians who were detained on Sunday on bail. All ten have to appear in front of a military court on April 18th.

Also in the West Bank, on Friday anti wall protests were organized in the villages of Bil'in and N'ilin central West Bank as well as Deir Istiya, in the north and Al Ma'ssara village, near Bethlehem in the south. Troops used tear gas to suppress those protests. Three journalists were injured and one international supporter was detained by the Israeli military in Al Ma'ssara village.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 11:26 AM

Israeli war crimes: How about running over an innocent American girl with a bullozer?

And why was she blocking the bulldozer?

Because it was going to destroy homes in the neighborhood from which a rocket was fired.

Collectively punishing people is against the Geneva Conventions.

There are tons more, but I'm eating breakfast.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 11:58 AM

"He has made 6 posts on the subject since then!"
No, that's the one I remembered and responded to because I thought it relevant to what we are discussiog now
You really are the pits.
For someone who has consistently distorted and maliciously ignored posts by others to the extent that you have been requested not to do so, you are grasping at straws at my apparently having chosen the wrong posting to answer. Not that it any of your business, I was at Galway Hospital most of yesterday ad returned home latish after a somewhat stressful day. I did my best to catch up on the days postings, but obviously made an error.
Now what's your excuse?
As it happens, I don't have a great deal of a problem with Mousethief's statement. I have said what I believe about the taking of human life, innocent or otherwise - obscene.
And I agree completely that the barrage must stop - along with the slaughter and destruction by the Israelis - AND NOT BEFORE. The Palestinians would be put at the well proven not-so-tender mercies of a terrorist state that has had no compunction in the past to abuse them to the point od mass-murder.
You, on the other hand, haven't had the decency to even acknowledge the thuggish nature of the Israeli behaviour towards Arabs in their care, other than to describe it as being out of date.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 12:28 PM

We're a long way from what's happening. Getting personal at the evident inability of people we're arguing with to understand what we are saying and respond to that rather than to things we haven't said is a bit pointless. It just reflects frustration at being able to do anything to affect the situation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 02:31 PM

Apologies,
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 06:01 PM

This thread was primarily about establishing whether we were unanimous on something.
We got bogged down on whether one person was in or out.
Less ambiguity in expressing his views would have saved pages of posts.
Moving on, McGrath says that I and others are failing to understand or respond to what you are saying.
Have I got it right that what you are saying is that Israel is guilty as a state of war crimes?
If so, how can we respond except to ask for evidence of that?
None has been provided after weeks of debate!

Mousethief, the tragic death of Rachel Corrie is not evidence of Israeli state terrorism.
If it was murder, the driver made the decision on the spot to do it.
Not the state.
Murder is denied, and a plausible explanation for an accident has been given.
Murder or accident, either way it can not be construed as state terrorism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 07:21 PM

Murder is denied - naturally. It's not unusual for murderers to do that.

The murders of Rachel Corrie and of Tom Hurndell etc were the direct result of Israeli soldiers acting in accordance with the way they had been instructed to act.

The only reason these aroused attention was because the victims were from the USA and the UK, which meant that it became politically necessary eventually to put the soldiers concerned on trial. In both cases strenuous efforts had been made by the IDF to cover up the true facts about the murders.

From a previous post: Troops opened fire at civilians killing 15-year-old Mohammad Al Faramawi...As protesters reached the buffer zone near the borders, soldiers stationed there opened fire at the protesters injuring 16 civilians. Among those injured was nine-year-old Ra'ed Abu Namous who was hit with a live round to his head, medical sources reported.

There will surely be no question of the soldiers responsible for that being tried - the victims may have been children, but they were Paelstinian children.

Have I got it right that what you are saying is that Israel is guilty as a state of war crimes?

I am. It beggars imagination that anyone would seek to deny that. From an article in the Israeli publication Al Haaretz : "A United Nations human rights investigator said on Thursday that Israel's offensive against Hamas in densely populated Gaza appeared to constitute a war crime of the "greatest magnitude." Just for starters.

Israel is of course not unique in being a state that commits war crimes. For example, most international lawyers appear to agree that the invasion of Iraq in 2003 was illegal. And there is no question that the firing of rockets at civilian targets is a war crime, just as shelling and airstrikes against civilian targets is a war crime. The fact that the number of civilians killed by Israel at all stages of this horrible conflict has been so much higher does not mean that the civilian deaths caused by Paletinian resistance is somehow justifiable. But to talk as if Israel were guiltless is a kind of blindness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 01:26 AM

The problem with this game is that whenever you provide evidence for a war crime, the Israel-butt-lickers will deny it happened, or say it was justified, or say the person was acting against orders. Giving you examples is just like feeding a troll.

In other words, I don't believe you're asking in good faith.

Why did Rachel Corrie lie down in front of a bulldozer? Was it just clearing some brush off a vacant lot? No, it was going to knock over homes. Homes that did not belong to the operator of the bulldozer or his employer. In punishment for something somebody else did. I already mentioned this. Your saying no examples have been provided is either disingenuous, or evidence of hasty reading unbecoming a disputant in a serious discussion.

The UN-commissioned Goldstone Report concluded that "Israel used disproportionate force, deliberately targeted civilians, used Palestinians as human shields, and destroyed civilian infrastructure during its incursion into Gaza to root out Palestinian rocket squads." (story here) But of course you will automatically dismiss that as being done by the UN which is the lackey of the Arabs, or some such. Prove me wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 01:34 AM

Jim, I am truly sorry that you have personal problems distracting you at the moment.
When you said you agreed completely with M. of course anyone would assume you meant a recent post, not one from days ago.
Your anger with me was misplaced, but let it go.

Kevin, it is only your opinion that the death of Rachel Corrie was murder, based on your preconceptions and prejudice that you have shown against Israel in previous comments.
The opinion of one human rights worker on the legality of a military operation would also be thrown out of any court.
The Israelis did not kill Faramawi. That was a propagandist lie.
He was injured but it is not at all clear by whom. It may well have been a Palestinian internal dispute.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8601925.stm


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 01:46 AM

Israel's side of the dispute on Goldstone, as told to BBC

Speaking to the BBC, Mr Regev said the panel was "born in sin" because "even the UN" considers the Human Rights Council which commissioned the report "to have a one-side anti-Israeli agenda".

The investigations Israel has done into its troops' behaviour in the Gaza Strip is 1,000 times more serious than this investigation

He also cast doubt on the impartiality of the four-judge panel, led by South African Richard Goldstone, based on comments one of its members had made before the inquiry.

Mr Regev charged that evidence collected in public hearings in the Gaza Strip, where he said witnesses were subject to intimidation from the militant Hamas movement, had the validity of a "show trial."


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 02:29 AM

Thought so.

No evidence will be accepted as evidence of Israeli atrocities because the only people who would speak out against Israelis are all perforce anti-Semites and their evidence is not admissible.

There is no "evidence" of Israeli atrocities, because of the way the words are defined by the "friends" of Israel. Nothing that seems to inculcate Israel in atrocities counts as evidence. The logic is a circular as you could possibly wish for.

So I'm not going to play that game. You can stop saying "give us evidence of Israeli atrocities" because we both know nothing we turn up will be accepted by you as evidence of Israeli atrocities. So let's just not play the game.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 02:40 AM

You are saying that no incontrovertible evidence exists.
Belief in it has to be a matter of faith and prejudice.
In the absence of evidence, I will just keep an open mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 03:09 AM

So, here's the deal, Israel issues an ultimatum....We do not like rockets being randomly tossed into our neighborhoods, and civilian population.You guys launch another one, and you are telling us that it doesn't matter, an you think it's OK....so, in response, we will rain hell on ALL of you..including your mice and cockroaches...THE CHOICE IS YOURS!!...so either stop, or don't go whining and bitching, and playing on the sympathies, of the rest of the world. You want something??..Negotiate!..and this time keep your word..or else...

After all, that's what I'd expect my government to do, if a neighboring country started doing in in my neighborhood....how about yours?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 03:58 AM

No country on Earth could just go on ignoring lethal attacks on its people.

Some recent cases just from our current debate.
Did Israelis throw dead and wounded into the sea from Mavi Marmara?
Did Israel provoke or instigate the recent clash on Lebanese border?Did Israelis kill Faramawi?

All lies, made up to discredit Israel, and all believed without question by gullible and prejudiced people on this forum.

When we know for an absolute fact that people are actively making up lies, is it not perfectly reasonable to be sceptical of all such claims without good evidence?
Let's keep open minds.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 04:47 AM

"When we know for an absolute fact that people are actively making up lies, is it not perfectly reasonable to be sceptical of all such claims without good evidence?
Let's keep open minds. "

Except when our own bigoted biases are challenged...


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 04:49 AM

"You guys launch another one, and you are telling us that it doesn't matter, an you think it's OK....so, in response, we will rain hell on ALL of you..including your mice and cockroaches."

That's what they have already done for decades mate - wake up and smell the roses...


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 06:08 AM

Foolestroupe, you have shown your gullibility to us all.

You believe everything said against Israel until is is proved false.
I believe nothing from either side until it is proved true.

Which attitude is the most bigoted and biased?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 06:30 AM

"Foolestroupe, you have shown your gullibility to us all."
Please stop speaking for everybody - try expressing an opinion of your own instead of acting as spokesman for everybody else
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 06:40 AM

Jim, you might not have read Foolestroupe's savaging of Israel over the Lebanon border incident (of which it was blameless) but I am quite sure everyone else did.
Everyone saw his gullibilty, except Jim.
Happy now?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 07:39 AM

Foolstroop expressed his opinion, just as you expressed yours; he speaks for himself, you speak for yourself - please do not claim to be speaking for anybody else, especially as, whatever thread you happen to land on, you end up very much in the minority, so extreme to the right are your views.
"Jim, you might not have read...."
And please don't patronise me.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 08:13 AM

QUOTE
Foolestroupe, you have shown your gullibility to us all.

You believe everything said against Israel until is is proved false.
I believe nothing from either side until it is proved true.

Which attitude is the most bigoted and biased?
UNQUOTE

You are claiming this about me? You sir, are a lying Fool - I never said that I "believe everything said against Israel until is is proved false." You sir, believe everything said against the opponents of Israel until is is proved false.

And you sir, believe nothing against the IDF - because you deny that ANY of it is true, even when they later admit it themselves.

Pointing one finger at another means that all the others point back at you.

You are so malicious or stupid (I cannot tell the difference) that you twist my claim that both sides are equally to blame and equal troublemakers to claim that I am anti-semetic and "believe everything said against Israel until is is proved false".

I think IMO, you are exhibiting that same sort of behavior that my Schizophrenic manager at work displayed.

Since nothing will be achieved with you in the room - I petition that this thread be closed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 08:26 AM

Cigarettes don't cause cancer.
Global warming is a lie.
The Holocaust never happened.
There were no moon landings.
The war on Iraq was legal.
Israel is not guilty of war crimes.

Bears do not shit in the woods.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 10:02 AM

McGrath, Israel may have committed war crimes.
I need evidence to form a conclusion.
You seem not to.

Foolestroupe, this post and those that follow show that you assumed Israel was guilty because Lebanon said so.
That was gullible.
thread.cfm?threadid=129840&messages=1837&page=1&desc=yes#2957814
Anyone can check and see which of us is the lying fool.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 10:05 AM

McGrath of Harlow: "Cigarettes don't cause cancer.
Global warming is a lie.
The Holocaust never happened.
There were no moon landings.
The war on Iraq was legal.
Israel is not guilty of war crimes.

Bears do not shit in the woods."


You forgot, "Muslim is the religion of peace!"

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 12:09 PM

The evidence is there to see, Keith, as it is for the other items in my list.

But that doesn't stop people refusing to accept it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 01:29 PM

Gaza and the West Bank:

As far as Palestine goes the only powers ever to have "invaded and "occupied" those territories and held their rightful owners under any form of subjugation since 1948 when the Mandated Territory of Palestine ceased to exist were Egypt and Jordan who invaded and occupied Gaza and the West Bank respectively and held them for nearly twenty years. The land was Palestinian, yet neither the Egyptians or the Jordanians let Palestinians settle there, instead they shut them up in camps on what was their own land.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 01:43 PM

"You forgot, "Muslim is the religion of peace!"
Might add Zionism to that one GFS
"I need evidence to form a conclusion."
Seek and ye shall find - the internet's full of it, so let your fingers do the walking
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 02:07 PM

Jim, I can't help when reading your inane posts, that if I was hearing you speak your lines, they would be, clean crisp, soft, with a lisp, and very effeminate...and extremely smarmy. Hey, ever hear a wounded soldier cry for his 'Mommy', and then held his bloody, shredded body as he died?..or watched half naked children stagger down the street, lost and dazed, while the naked part of their bodies were scorched, and they screamed in pain so hard they couldn't even catch their breath?..or mothers in shock holding one of their dead family members in their arms?
This happens more in reality, than you seem to wish to wrap your pumpkin-boffing brain around. Whatever it takes for the missiles to stop raining randomly down on towns and villages would be just OK...wouldn't you agree???...or are you so infatuated with your lame, stupid, self willed opinions of 'daisies' growing in the fields, and everybody is justified, with every fucking complaint, based on centuries old hatreds, that you can't see what this is about? This has NOTHING to do with the excuses propagated by extremists on either side, but rather has more to do with a smaller group of militant extremists playing on the emotions, while launching missiles and blowing up the shit out of everyone...while 'world opinion' restrains the Israelis from doing what is necessary to stop them!......
.....unless of course you are just anti Jewish, and try to hide it with your bullshit, soft spoken, eloquent rhetoric.
If you weren't so chicken shit, and really believed in your crap, go there and convince them.....they'd slit your throat before you finished your first sentence of you semi-literate diatribe.....just because you're a non Muslim Brit!..not for any other reason!
Some people are so idealistically brain locked, that they just NEVER get it!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 02:54 PM

Jim and McGrath, I have so far failed to find the evidence.
Why will you not share yours?
You must have evidence for your belief, or you would just be prejudiced bigots.
McGrath, at least you did put some up.
Such good evidence that you posted it twice!
Of course, it did turn out to be false.
I got no thanks for finding that out for you, and it seemed not to affect yoor belief at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 03:15 PM

You have been given evidence of Israeli atrocities again and again; the shooting of civilians, the use of chemical weapons, the use of captured civilians as human shields, the massacre of up to three and a half thousand refugees, the bombardment of schools and hospitals with the pupils and patients in them, the destruction of homes, the constant humiliation experienced daily by Palestinians - all well reported and documented for those prepared to look for it.
You continually and arrogantly tell us that we need to open our minds, yet it is you who has been told again and again to listen to what people have to say and to stop distorting and misrepresenting what you are told.
You have one of the most closed minds I have ever come across, not only locked solid, but you appear to have thrown the key away.
GfS
"
"Jim, I can't help when reading your inane posts, that if I was hearing you speak your lines, they would be, clean crisp, soft, with a lisp, and very effeminate"
And I might say that when I read your posts I can picture the black uniform, the jodhpurs, complete with the peaked cap and the skull and crossbones badge - but I really don't go into those sewers, can't stand the smell.
Why is it you people feel the need to resort to personal invective - I usually put it down to lack of imagination, it certainly doesn't make your case very well - but it takes all kinds.
Personally, I'd rather remain an idealist, if that's what I am, than a vitriol spewing loud mouthed lout - you and Keith represent your cause well and between you make a well-matched pair.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 03:24 PM

Jim, YES or NO are you in favor of the missile launches on Israel from Hamas??
Yes or No!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 03:28 PM

GfS
Don't be obtuse - the anwer remains the same as I have given throughout this thread; if you are unable to understand it then you seem to be suffering from the same dyslexia your friend adopts to avoid answering arkward questions.
Do you still beat your wife/husband - yes or no?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 03:47 PM

"Hey, ever hear a wounded soldier cry for his 'Mommy', and then held his bloody, shredded body as he died?..or watched half naked children stagger down the street, lost and dazed, while the naked part of their bodies were scorched, and they screamed in pain so hard they couldn't even catch their breath?..or mothers in shock holding one of their dead family members in their arms?"
And in answer to your previous question - all of the things you describe happen to Palestinians as well as Israelis - only something like 50 times more if the casualty figures are anything to go by. And I don't have to imagine them; I have just been reading the description of the Israeli officer who deliberately shot a 13 year old girl, and when checked by one of his fellow soldiers replied that he would happily have shot her if she had been 3 years old - all there to be accessed for those who wish to find it.
Did you know that the name 'Sanity' was adopted by the british Peace Movement for one of the newspapers - perhaps you should consider changing it?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 05:21 PM

Jim Carroll: "And in answer to your previous question - all of the things you describe happen to Palestinians as well as Israelis - only something like 50 times more if the casualty figures are anything to go by. And I don't have to imagine them; I have just been reading the description of the Israeli officer who deliberately shot a 13 year old girl, and when checked by one of his fellow soldiers replied that he would happily have shot her if she had been 3 years old - all there to be accessed for those who wish to find it."

Blah blah blah.....Do you support Hamas firing missiles into Israel?

Keep in mind now, if if Sharia law rules that area, homosexuality brings a death penalty.

..and 'Sanity' is merely a legal term. It is not a diagnosis...neither is 'insane'.

Now back to the question at hand, Do you approve or support Hamas firing missiles into Israel?

Simple question.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 05:31 PM

Yes Jim, but none of them stand up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 05:57 PM

"Keep in mind now, if if Sharia law rules that area, homosexuality brings a death penalty."
So there you have it - an anti-Semite, this time the Semites happen to be Arabs.
So piss of and take your parrot with you.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 07:09 PM

"let your fingers do the walking"

... not the wa*king ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 07:12 PM

Jim Carroll"Keep in mind now, if if Sharia law rules that area, homosexuality brings a death penalty."
So there you have it - an anti-Semite, this time the Semites happen to be Arabs.
So piss of and take your parrot with you.
Jim Carroll"

There you have it??..Bullshit!..You are avoiding the question. This has Nothing to do with Semites(who are both Jews and Arabs, I know..Bobby Fisher went through that whole ordeal, saying as much..and I agree...)
Still that does NOT leave you an out....Answer the question, or shut the fuck up!

Do you support or approve of Hamas firing missiles into Israel???

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 07:18 PM

"Foolestroupe, this post and those that follow show that you assumed Israel was guilty because Lebanon said so.
That was gullible."

You have a rare and outstanding genius for misrepresenting other people's views, but not unique - I have lived thru such madness before.

My manager at work found I was using the work office computer system to write job applications for internal jobs, as was everybody else, including him. He made a great fuss trying to get me put up on internal disciplinary charges "for wasting company resources" - but the best bit was that at exactly the same time - and he saw no problem - he was using the exact same system to write a letter overseas to buy a book on - wait for it - "Ethics"! :-)

That's real Schizophrenia! and you are displaying a remarkable similarity of behavior sir! Continue to behave in this way, and I will stop believing that you are just a malicious Internet Troll, and are really in need of serious medical treatment! And I will call for all your friends who really care about you to help me sign the paperwork!


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 07:23 PM

Read this, about what happened in "the Gaza Conflict" written by a Jewish Israeli, published in Al Haaretz

"Israel struck a civilian population that remains under its control, it didn't fulfill its obligation to distinguish between civilians and militants and used military force disproportionate with the tangible threat to its own civilians. Air Force drones and helicopters fired deadly missiles at civilians, many of them children; the Tank Corps and Navy shelled civilian neighborhoods with weapons not designed for precision strikes; soldiers received orders to fire on rescue crews; others fired on civilians carrying white flags; and others killed people in or near their homes. Troops used Gazans as human shields, soldiers detained civilians in abusive conditions, the army used white phosphorus shells in dense civilian areas and, on the eve of withdrawing, destroyed wide residential, industrial and agricultural areas.

There is only thing worse than denial – the admission that the IDF indeed acted as has been described, but that these actions are both normal and appropriate.
"

But why bother...


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 07:30 PM

"written by a Jewish Israeli, published in Al Haaretz"

Good try, but, again, that source will only have its integrity denied, mate. Stop trying to teach the pig to sing.... :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: bobad
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 07:39 PM

I've noticed that the Hamas apologists are fond of finding and quoting Jewish voices of dissent. Isn't it wonderful that Israel is a country in which one has that right unlike it's neighbours, where dissent usually leads to death.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 07:53 PM

"Isn't it wonderful that Israel is a country in which one has that right unlike it's neighbours, where dissent usually leads to death. "

Yep - but when that Jewish dissenter gets too much 'following', then the credibility attacks start, as that dissenter is then denounced as an 'enemy of the Jewish state'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: bobad
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 08:43 PM

I should also add another observation which is that whenever a Jewish source that declaims Hamas propaganda is cited, the Hamas apologists are quick to discredit it as being biased but when it speaks out against Israeli policy in Gaza it is quoted and used to buttress their own positions - strange that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 11:07 PM

I am off line for a week or so.
Enjoy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 11:25 PM

Yep bobad - as many others here have mentioned they appear cut from the same cloth to people other than their brainwashed followers.

As Orwell said in Animal Farm - the animals looked from pigs to man and back and saw no difference.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Aug 10 - 11:50 PM

"I am off line for a week or so.
Enjoy. "

My manager used to do that while they adjusted his meds...


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 12:07 AM

"I've noticed that the Hamas apologists are fond of finding and quoting Jewish voices of dissent. Isn't it wonderful that Israel is a country in which one has that right unlike it's neighbours, where dissent usually leads to death."

This is because non Jewish voices, especially Arab voices, that speak up against Israeli policy and IDF actions are generally pigeon holed as being "hamas apologists", "Israel Haters" and "anti semites".

These accusations can't be made against Jewish Israelis, though I suspect Bobad views Jewish Israelis who are opposed to their governments policies and IDF actions in Gaza as being self hating Jews.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 12:23 AM

Bobad,

To addd to my last post, in fact, those Israelis who do protest are usually met by violent angry right wing counter demonstrators who intimidate and harass the dissenters while the police turn a blind eye.

In addition, those Israelis who work in Gaza to try to help alleviate some of the suffering and/or protest their countrys actions/policies are often on the receiving end of IDF brutality.

So I wouldn't go shouting about alleged Israeli state tolerance to dissenting views - they have an image to keep up, but its a struggle for them that they are seeing less and less point in wasting time on, being so sure that they are fully justified.


It was interesting to read about Netanyahu saying recently that as Israeli leader he was burdened with trying to find a balance between the conflicting ideologies of Zionism on the one hand and humanitarianism on the other.

Interesting that the Israelki leader should see these two concerns as distinct and in conflict with one another.

Finding a balance between Zionism and Humanitarianism.

It says that in his view Zionism is non-humanitarian.

This was in the same speech that he spoke about "preserving the jewish character" of Israel.


In the UK, Nick Griffin talks about preserving the British character of England.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 12:31 AM

GfS,

"Hey, ever hear a wounded soldier cry for his 'Mommy', and then held his bloody, shredded body as he died?..or watched half naked children stagger down the street, lost and dazed, while the naked part of their bodies were scorched, and they screamed in pain so hard they couldn't even catch their breath?..or mothers in shock holding one of their dead family members in their arms?"


Have you?

NO!


I note that you find the image of Israelis suffering like this to be upsetting, but you don't have any interest in Palestinians suffering the same fate.

In fact, when asked to consider Palestinian death and suffering, you say:

"blah blah blah".


Gfs - Do you support the IDF killing civilians in Gaza, yes or no?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 02:19 AM

Lox: "Have you?
NO!"

If you want to stuff words in my mouth, and answer your questions you ask me, then why ask them? You're making up your own shit!..Oh, and by the way, you're answer you made up for me, is not 'NO', but yes...and yes I have held a man, that I didn't even know, and as I was kneeling, cradling him in my arms, he died. It's a rather 'sacred' if you will, experience......if I were to accurately describe it, it was something like his 'inner clothes', if you will, were yanked out of him, and he just....um,.. went limp, and became as weight.(Sorry, I've never described this before in print).

Actually, I don't go much into my personal life or history, not even my gender on here. But, I'll give you an honest opinion, the best I can. If I'm wrong, and I learn something, I'll own up to it, and more than likely thank whomever, for the new knowledge, or insight.

That, more than likely, will NOT include some ratchet jaw, with slick sophistry, to merely impress himself, spouting hatred for groups of people....and in doing so, distorts, or ignores FACTS!

Fair Enough?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 02:24 AM

Sorry, I didn't catch this one, before I hit 'Submit Message''

Lox:I note that you find the image of Israelis suffering like this to be upsetting, but you don't have any interest in Palestinians suffering the same fate."

That is a rather biased and stupid assumption on your part....and an incorrect one at that. Shame on you!!!
You should apologize...but you won't, seeing as...never mind.....

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:10 AM

"then denounced as an 'enemy of the Jewish state"
Like Mordechai Vanunu, who was jailed for 18 years for telling the world what it had a right to know, that Israel had developed nuclear weapons.
Apart from their treatment of the Palestinian people, the fact that such an unstable and extremist terrorist State has the power to blast us all to hell is reason enough to stop their gallop.

" Israeli nuclear whistle-blower Mordechai Vanunu was freed from jail on Sunday after serving 11 weeks behind bars for breaking the terms of his release and meeting a foreigner, a prison official said.
"Mordecai Vanunu was freed from prison on Sunday morning," a spokesman for the prisons authority told AFP.
Vanunu began serving a three-month sentence at a prison in Ramle near Tel Aviv on May 23.
A court had in December ordered him to do three months community service or serve three months in prison for violating the terms of his release from jail back in 2004.
The former nuclear technician was arrested in December at a Jerusalem hotel while talking to a Norwegian woman -- a violation of the terms laid down when he was freed after serving 18 years for disclosing the inner workings of Israel's Dimona nuclear plant to Britain's Sunday Times newspaper
The 55-year-old had opted for community service but asked the Supreme Court if he could perform it in Arab east Jerusalem for fear he would be harassed by Israelis on the mainly Jewish western side of the city.
The court rejected his request and ordered him to serve three months behind bars.
Vanunu was originally jailed in 1986 and spent more than 10 of his 18 years in prison in solitary confinement.
Since then, he has been detained several times for violating the terms of his release that ban him from travel or contact with foreigners.
Vanunu became an international cause celebre during his time in prison.
At home, he is still widely reviled for converting to Christianity shortly before he was kidnapped in Italy and shipped back to Israel.
Israel is widely believed to be the only nuclear-armed power in the Middle East, with around 200 warheads, but it has a policy of neither confirming nor denying that."

There has been some puzzelment over and criticism of the continued harshness of Vanunu's treatment, in the Israeli press, and the conclusion is that the Israeli authorities are concerned about his passing on information of the United States's collusion in their development of nuclear weapons.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:25 AM

You are saying that no incontrovertible evidence exists.
Belief in it has to be a matter of faith and prejudice.
In the absence of evidence, I will just keep an open mind.


No. I am saying you are NOT keeping an open mind, and are dismissing real evidence because of your faith and prejudice. Which is exactly what you're doing.

When we know for an absolute fact that people are actively making up lies, is it not perfectly reasonable to be sceptical of all such claims without good evidence?
Let's keep open minds.


Being skeptical of all claims and keeping an open mind are mutually exclusive. The problem is your definition of "good evidence" which clearly means "evidence that has been stamped OK by Israel."

I've noticed that the Hamas apologists are fond of finding and quoting Jewish voices of dissent.

You don't accept what Arabs say about the crisis. And now you deride people putting up the words of Jews about the crisis. Just whose word will you accept? Oh wait. I know. Only people who find no fault with Israel or the IDF.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:43 AM

Jim, A lot more hot air and Blah-blah

Look at all this squirming and manipulation of words, and topics!

Do you support or approve of Hamas firing missiles into Israel? YES or NO!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 04:13 AM

OK, Hamas fires missiles aim at Israel..Israel retaliates, hits civilians(collateral damage)..Keep in mind, Hamas fires first.....

Now just why collateral damage...........

then there is a question, as if the tubes can launch missiles..

What did anyone expect??????????

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 06:53 AM

Hamas fires first

Which came first the chicken or the egg? Which is the chicken and which is the egg?

There is no distinction in principle between the "provocation" and the "response". They are two sides of the same coin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 06:57 AM

"Keep in mind, Hamas fires first....."
As our absent friend Keith pointed out, Israel has been killing Palestinians for around 38 years; the massacres of Shatila and Sabra took place in 1982 where Israelis participated in the slaughter of up to 3,500 refugees - which gives them a pretty good head start, don't you think?
Yours faithfully - blah, blah, etc
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 07:31 AM

PS Do you think that the Shatila and Sabra massacres were crimes against humanity and should those involved be tried for mass murder as were those implicated in similar crimes in former Yugoslavia YES OR NO?
Answers on a plain postcard please.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 08:10 AM

GfS.

You have never been in a war zone and you have never witnessed atrocities like you described.

You've seen a man die - most people do at some point in their life.

Experience of the latter does not equate to knowledge of the former.

I note you haven't answered my yes or no question.

Do you have an answer?


No!

"That is a rather biased and stupid assumption on your part"

No assumption, not even an opinion. When you were asked about Palestinian suffering you said "blah blah"


In other words you see that as irrelevant rubbish.

Jim says that he abhors the suffering on both sides.

You wrote a lovely bit of prose about dying Israelis, but when it came to dying palestinians you saidf "Blah Blah"

No assumptions, and the words in your mouth were yours.

"That, more than likely, will NOT include some ratchet jaw, with slick sophistry, to merely impress himself, spouting hatred for groups of people....and in doing so, distorts, or ignores FACTS!"

A textbook example of projection.

Why am I arguing with a nut job?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 08:27 AM

This is your blah-blah
These are the figures from the conflict since the year 2000. Those in brackets are those under the age of 18.
                          Pales.             Israeli
2010                20 (5)          5 (0)
2008 - 2009    1457 (355)         44 (5)
2007                 396 (43)         13 (0)
2006                 678 (127)         25 (2)
2005                 216 (52)         48 (6)
2004                 828 (179)         108 (8)
2003                 588 (119)         185 (21)
2002                 1032 (157)         419 (47)
2001                 467 (82)         192 (36)
2000                 295 (85)         43 (0)

The overall total of casualties since 1987 are – Palestinian = 7506 (1449), Israeli - 1540 (142)

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: bobad
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 09:00 AM

Since the Palestinian casualties are the result of Israel responding to Palestinian aggression I would posit that if the number of Israeli deaths were zero then those of Palestinians would also be zero.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 09:18 AM

Excellent point Bobad .... but that is too complicated for them to figure out.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 09:25 AM

Jim, you may as well talk to the wall – I would imagine that most people reading this thread have been waiting for Keith and Co. to capitulate to the stronger argument, but it appears that the more reasoned you are the less they comprehend. Sadly, it is this very attitude that is perpetuating the atrocities over there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 09:34 AM

This is a very nasty and ill-tempered thread, not much reason on display as far as I can see.

I think we all know the situation in Gaza, Israel, the West Bank, both factions believe themselves to be victims...both with some reason. This exercise in abuse will solve or illuminate nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 09:48 AM

"the Palestinian casualties are the result of Israel responding to Palestinian aggression"

While there may be examples of Palestinian deaths cused by Israeli self defence, there are many more caused simply in retaliation, and more still caused in incidents unrelated to Hamas activity.

Then there are those resulting from deliberate neglect for, and merciless crushing of the weak, eg those deaths caused when sick people have been turned back from hospital based on the arbitrary medical judgement of soldiers with no medical knowledge.

Amnesty

Above is a link to Amnesty Internationals recent summary of the situation which is pretty much identical to my assessment.

Note the following passages.

"Israeli soldiers also continue to shoot at Palestinian farmers, fishermen and other civilians when they venture near Gaza's perimeter or approach the three nautical mile limit that Israel imposes on Gaza's coastline causing deaths and injuries."

And on the subject of health and deliberate neglect.

"Health
Gaza's health sector has been plagued by shortages in equipment and medical supplies during the blockade.

Following the Israeli closure of crossings, people with medical conditions that cannot be treated in Gaza have been required to apply for permits to leave the territory to receive treatment in either foreign hospitals or Palestinian hospitals in the West Bank.

The Israeli authorities frequently delay or refuse these permits; some Gazans have died while waiting to obtain permits to leave the territory for medical treatment elsewhere.

World Health Organization (WHO) trucks of medical equipment bound for Gazan hospitals have repeatedly been turned away, without explanation, by Israeli border officials."


Don't talk to me about Self defence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 10:15 AM

"I would posit that if the number of Israeli deaths were zero then those of Palestinians would also be zero."
You mean like - "Surrender earthman, resistance is futile"? There are no grounds at all to suggest that Israel would cease its annexation of territory and return to the pre Six Day War borders, or stop the settlements, or the evictions.......
Maybe the Palestinians should march in an ordely line into refugee camps, where they will be treated to some TLC - as they have in the past!!
From the Israeli point of veiw it is a war of expansion and with their track record, anybody would be insane to surrender into their hands.
Or do you know something we don't?
Those figures don't include those massacred BTW (and we still await an acknowlegement from the Israeli apologists).
"This is a very nasty and ill-tempered thread, not much reason on display as far as I can see."
This is an extremely emotive subject for most people and the bulk of the nastiness comes largely from a small handful who have consitently resorted to personal abuse - our 'Sane' friend being the front runner at the moment.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 12:37 PM

"I would posit that if the number of Israeli deaths were zero then those of Palestinians would also be zero."

Consider the case of 1996 shelling of a UN compound in the village of Qana (aka the New Testament Cana) in which 106 civilian taking shelter there were killed and around 116 injured. "A United Nations military investigation later determined it was unlikely that Israeli shelling of the U.N. compound was the result of technical or pr"ocedural errors."

And then again in 2006 "In the deadliest single incident in the ongoing Israel-Hezbollah conflict, an Israeli air strike apparently demolished a three-story building in the village of Qana in southern Lebanon, and according to the Red Cross, killed at least 28 displaced civilians, including 19 children, most of whom handicapped or mentally ill, who were sheltering there. The Lebanese police reported at least 56 fatalities, including 37 children."

Of course these were Lebanese rather than Palestinians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 12:47 PM

"those deaths caused when sick people have been turned back from hospital based on the arbitrary medical judgement "


Lox,

You obviously ignored the FACT that the Palestinians have used Red Cresent marked ambulances to carry attack teams into checkpoints, in violation of International Law. Since then, Israel has the right to prohibit ALL access across the borders- yet allows most. Have you looked at access across the Egyptian border? Is it any different? Yet you comment ONLY on Israel: That is indicative of a bias on your part.

Still waiting on the details of how you will return the property of the 820,000 Jewish refugess driven out of Arab nations.


Still waiting on why the peace discussion should not go back to the LASR borders that the Arabs accepted- NOT the pre-1967, but the 1923 ones. The peace treaty with Jordan uses them: The peace treaty with Egypt uses them- but all I hear here is a call to return to the pre-1967 borders.

Still waiting on what Israel SHOULD do when rockets are launched at it's civilian population- I presume the immediate destruction of the launch sites has been rejected.

Waiting to hear how the Pakistanis should be given their homes ( now part of India) back, since they lost them because of the division of a British possesion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 01:15 PM

"The launch sites" for these primitive rockets are random places in the fields from which the rockets were fired. The people killed in "immediate destruction" are more likely to be people working on the land than the people who launched the rockets, who aren't too likely hang around after firing them.

Of course anybody killed will be identified by the IDF as responsible for firing the rockets. Dead men tell no tales. Nor do dead women or children.

I suppose the British could have responded to IRA|bombs by carrying out airstrikes on Dublin...


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 01:20 PM

"You obviously ignored the FACT that the Palestinians have used Red Cresent marked ambulances to carry attack teams into checkpoints"

Well then why not allow medical supplies in?

Witholding these is tantamount to the same thing and is also contravenes internaytional law.

You can't have your cake and eat it.

"Have you looked at access across the Egyptian border? Is it any different? Yet you comment ONLY on Israel: That is indicative of a bias on your part."

No BB.

I repeat (for the thousandth time)

I condemn EVeRYONE who commits these crimes.

Egypt is also to be condemned for its part in the blockade.

I condemn Hamas for their role in damaging Gazana lives and hopes.

I condmn Egypt for blockading Gaza.

I condemn Israel for its desire to collectively punish Palestinians in Gaza - though to be honest I don't see it as punishment, I see it as calculated cruelty - "whos the daddy" etc.


"Still waiting on the details of how you will return the property of the 820,000 Jewish refugess driven out of Arab nations."

Not sure what this has to do with Israeli aggression or any other point that I have made - unless it is being presented as another justification for killing arabs ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 01:22 PM

"I suppose the British could have responded to IRA|bombs by carrying out airstrikes on Dublin... "

Or Derry, or west belfast.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 01:25 PM

"You obviously ignored the FACT that the Palestinians have used Red Cresent marked ambulances to carry attack teams into checkpoints"
If this has been the case, it is no reason whatever to deprive the ordinary citizens of medical care, especially as much of this has been made necessary by attacks by Israelis.
"Still waiting....."
And I am still waiting for a reply, or even an acknowledgement of Israel's participation in mass murders - a simple yes or no will do.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 01:37 PM

watch this ....

Pallywood

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 01:43 PM

Israel allowed Lebonese malitias to conduct operations, for which I think there were trials.

Now, when Hamas is more interested in helping their people than hurting Israelis, there might be a chance at peace- BUT Hamas is required to contol those in it's territory, and it's failure will continue to result in Israeli attacks ON THOSE LAUNCH SITES as long as Israeli citizens are being targeted by those illegal rockets.

In the invasion, Israel complied with International Law and warned the citizens of Gaza that they were attacking. Have you EVER heard of Hamas warning of any rocket launch? Yet you justify the rockets (a violation of International law), and condemn Israel (in compliance with international law).


"If this has been the case, it is no reason whatever to deprive the ordinary citizens of medical care,.."

IF there is a history of attacks being made ( in violation of international law) from marked ambulances, THERE IS REASON to restrict the approach and crossing of those vehicles. ANY claim to the contrary is ridiculus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 01:49 PM

The reason I posted the links to the 'garbage' truck(S), it the FACT that these vehicles can hide and fire in the more heavily populated area, thinking that they can do their attacks, not be detected, and wrongly figure that a response would be held back, because they are concealed, concealed in a populated area, and counting on Israel would not want either the responsibility for the casualties, nor the 'bad press' casualties...Really???..In war, you are going to count on the 'better nature' of someone you just fired on????!!??? Sorry, the responsibility goes to the ones firing from the midst of a populated area.
As so far as my question to the slick tongue Jimmy, it is obvious to see, that HE DOES support Hamas, attacking Israel, and firing into THEIR populated areas...and that is a STUPID. and ERRONEOUS position.

My position is ALL of the killing over this bullshit is wrong!..and yet, self defense is in itself understandable, but Israel has been frustrated by the numerous attempts to negotiate.

As for 'LOST in Cream Cheese', ...yes you silly sot, I have been in a war zone...and not by choice; so shove it where the moon don't shine!
..maybe you can see if your Mummy will let you out of her basement!
Shit, maybe even look for a job!

So, with the 'logic'(?) employed by the radical nincompoops in here, I guess you support radical terrorist's actions in other places, as well, for the same idiotic reasons...as long as you can safely watch it on you T.V.s.......after the cartoon hour!

All of the killing, both sides is needless, and stems from century old hatreds, but politicized for justification!..because even they KNOW it needs justification!!!!...just some of you bozos don't think so, and eat up their crap!

Ok, now, you can have you cookies and milk, and pot!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 02:06 PM

Thanks Bill.

Your website and its long standing unbiased analysis of the media (3 cases, all takig the Israeli side against Palestinians in incidents in Gaza) is all very interesting.

Thats why I prefer to get my info from people like Amnesty Interational who are non partisan.

PS - The narrator appears to be overlooking one slight detail ...

... all those palestinians congregating around an IDF base with guns and the IDF make no attempt to disperse them?

The premise is that there are no IDF guns being fired so therefore the scenes have been staged by palestinians ...

There is no way that the IDF would stand around doing nothing whilst a mob of armed palestinians allegedly spent half an hour making a movie with guns, petrol bombs etc.

These films may well be staged - but not by palestinians.

The website is not impartial, it exists to discredit palestinians anbd all 3 of its "investigations" focus on that task.

And yes the videos are staged - by someone with an anti palestinian agenda.


This is consistent with the faked videos that were released by the IDF after the flotilla murders.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 02:17 PM

THANK YOU biLL number 6!!!!
Now, LOX, Have YOU ever been in a war zone???...Nah, I mean a REAL ONE!...I mean, besides 'in front of you T.V.!?!'
That was a great video link!

Gullible Morons on parade!!!...then they think everyone else is as stupid as they! Sorry, didn't work...AGAIN!

So, bottom lining it, you DO support the firing of missiles into Israel, based on your quasi-political astuteness, based on T.V. fiction!!!.....

GfS

P.S. ...and meanwhile the radical ass-brains fire on innocent people, while using innocent people to hide behind!!!

I hope the earth is rid of everyone of ANYONE who does that shit!

See Ya'...Waves!


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 02:18 PM

BB - I note you answered Jim but ignored me ...


""If this has been the case, it is no reason whatever to deprive the ordinary citizens of medical care,.."

IF there is a history of attacks being made ( in violation of international law) from marked ambulances, THERE IS REASON to restrict the approach and crossing of those vehicles. ANY claim to the contrary is ridiculus. "

So why not allow medical supplies in?

BTW - I condemn the rockets ...

... And I condemn the Israeli government and the IDF.

And the self defense argument is bollocks.


As for the idea that Israel keeps getting frstrated by palestinians in negotiations, ...

... would that be by their own continueing policy of evicting Palestinians from their homes in east jerusalem and the west bank and building illegal jewish settlements?


If Hamas and Israel sat down at the table to discuss how best to dehumanize Gazans they couldn't find a more effective way.

They tacitly collude with each other.

I condemn them all, but there are those who lie to themselves and say that Israel acts only in self defense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 02:20 PM

MGOH asked:

"Which came first the chicken or the egg"

Jim Carroll for some reason wants to go back to 1982 as it seems this helps his argument but it does not answer Kevin's question.

While what we now refer to as Palestine was under Ottoman control Jews were allowed to settle they first started settling in the area around 1857.

Now how many Jews were killed by Arabs in 1857?
How many Arabs were killed by Jews in 1857?

I think you will find the answere was damn few if any at all because if there had been trouble the Turks would have sorted both sides out in short order.

First World War comes and goes and the idea of a Jewish "Homeland" is decided upon and the UK is given the Mandate by the League of Nations to adminster an area referred to a Palestine and set this Jewish Homeland thing up. UK Government and Foreign Office are fully behind it, the British military who have been out there do not think the idea will work, they view it as a recipe for disaster.

In 1920 up along an area of border between French Mandated Syria and Lebanon and British Mandated Palestine there are three small villages where land had been farmed by Jewish settlers for about thirty years. The French are having trouble with the local Bedouins. The Bedouins descend on one of these villages looking for french soldiers who are on the run, in the search the Bedouins open fire and massacre the villagers - Strike 1 to the Arabs

Along comes Yasser Arafat's Uncle (who wishes to style himself the Grand-Mufti of Jerusalem) in 1921 and spreads a completely false rumour about Jewish settlers attacking, robbing and killing Arabs. Plain truth is that no Jew has attacked, robbed or killed any Arab. In the ensuing riots many Jewish homes and businesses in Jerusalem are attacked and robbed, Jews are killed. Finally a less than enthusiastic British military restore order, and investigate the riots and here comes the kicker. The bastard who started it all cons the british into giving him the title he wanted on the grounds that he is the best person around if the want the situation kept under control - Strike 2 to the Arabs

Same thing happens again in 1929, lies are told Arabs riot and kill Jews. This time Arafat's Uncle is sentenced to a term of imprisonment but escapes into Trans Jordan and Syria - Strike 3 to the Arabs

The town of Hebron had been a Jewish community for over 800 years in 1929 the Arabs drove these Jews who in no way could be termed settlers from their homes and property killing 67 of them. It is now regarded by many as a totally Arab town, those same people then argue theArab "Right of Return" - but it's only selective and by no means does it apply to all.

Please note that up to this point no Jew or Jewish settler has attacked, robbed or killed an Arab yet. They have been taking it on the chin and relying rather foolishly on the British to do what their Mandate requires them to do.

But after the riots of 1929 they decide that relying on the British is not a good idea, they will form their own defence organisation and so the Haganah is formed.

The role of the Haganah was to warn the residents of and repel attacks by Arabs. Members of the Haganah had been instructed to only defend communities and not initiate counter attacks against Arab gangs or their communities. This policy appeared defeatist to many who believed that the best defense is a good offense. In 1931, the more militant elements of the Haganah splintered off and formed the Irgun.

1936 comes along and between 1936 and 1939 there was what was called The Great Arab Revolt. During the 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine, the Haganah participated actively to protect British interests and to quell Arab rebellion using the FOSH, and then Hish units - Strike 4 to the Arabs but this time the Jews fought back so let's call this "honours even"

During the Arab Revolt the Peel Commission finds that Jew and Arab are incapable of sharing one nation and they propose a two-state solution. It is rejected by the British Government and by the Arabs out of hand. It is also rejected by the Jews but they are prepared to view it as a start point for negotiation.

During the Second World War the Jews fought Hitler Arafat's Uncle the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was Hitler's Guest of Honour, he rasied Muslim SS Units in the Balkans to hunt down Jews and resistance fighters.

After the Second World War comes to an end the British Mandate for Palestine is due to expire in March 1948. Both Arabs and Jews start to jockey for position. The newly formed United Nations propose a two-state solution which the Jews accept and the Arabs reject out of hand. Tit-for-tat attacks take place between Jew and Arab with the Brits caught in the middle. The British leave in accordance with the expiry of their original mandate and the Jews declare independence and the State of israel is born. It is immediately recognised by the United Nations and the United States of America. The Arabs attack but are defeated in the ensuing war signing an armistace in 1949, during the War Egypt has invaded and occupied Gaza which it holds onto and Jordan has invaded and occupied the West Bank and East Jerusalem which it holds onto. Both Egypt and Jordan will hold onto their ill-gotten gains until they are driven out by Israeli forces in 1967.

Any nearer to answering your question Kevin?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 02:24 PM

LUNK-head: "The premise is that there are no IDF guns being fired so therefore the scenes have been staged by palestinians ...

There is no way that the IDF would stand around doing nothing whilst a mob of armed Palestinians allegedly spent half an hour making a movie with guns, petrol bombs etc."

Sure there is!...did it ever occur to you that maybe the IDF isn't being the aggressors, as much as YOU and your band of other LUNKS are portraying?..That being said, I'm pretty sure there has been indiscretions, and violations by the IDF, but not as a matter of 'policy', as you tend to portray!
Just consider, just for a moment......Duhh....maybe they are acting in self defense...I mean just maybe........
GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 02:26 PM

re Bills Video.


You think that the IDF would allow a mob of palestinians to run around near an IDF base shooting off AK47s and M16's?


No rubber bullets?

No tear Gas?


Were they asleep?


Those films were faked - but not in Gaza or the west bank and not by palestinians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: bobad
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 02:27 PM

Thank you biLL, I will enjoy watching the gullible try to discredit this video, I see one has started already, this should be entertaining.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 02:37 PM

Bobad,

Explain why the IDF don't make any attempt to find out what is going on and why they allow it to continue?

Then explain why the website only has 3 "investigations" on it.

Then explain why they are all focussed on the Israel-Palestine situation.

Then explain why they all take the Israeli side.

Then explain why these videos have the same narrator as the video you posted on your atrocity thread which was banned from youtube within an hour of having been posted there?


Because it is staged.


And you Bobad are as mendacious as they come.

May you drown in your own bitterness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 02:45 PM

Of course you could go back to the Crusades, with Christians massacring Jews, along with the Arabs with whom they were living amicably. There's hardly ever anywhere you can draw a line in history and say "that's where it all started".

The point I was making, Teribus, is that in the current conflict over the last couple of generations, every atrocity can be seen both as a provocation and as a reprisal for a previous atrocity, according to the point of view of the people reporting it. That's pretty normal in any conflict of this sort, for example in the Balkans in the wars of the past decades, or in the time of the German occupation, for that matter.

That doesn't measn that the two sides in such conflicts are equivalent - but it means that talking in terms of a distinction between reprisal and provocation is essentially meaningless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: bobad
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 02:54 PM

Lox, you are blinded by hatred.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:00 PM

Hatred? I haven't seen Lox say anything to justify the use of violence by anybody - in contrast to most if not all those "supporting" Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:11 PM

"You think that the IDF would allow a mob of palestinians to run around near an IDF base shooting off AK47s and M16's?"

yes.

they will only shoot back ... when getting shot at.

watch the video ... they aren't shooting at the army post.


Palestinians militants are noted for walking around in large crowds shooting off their guns in the air ... real macho cowboys they are ... with total disregard to the children around them.


anyway, never expected the "Israeli bashing gang" to be swayed in any way whatsoever as a result of watching this video.

Richard Landes is credible. Definately not one to present such facts for clown bandstanding.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: bobad
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:17 PM

Here's another video that poses some interesting questions about the Ghalia family tragedy on the beach in Gaza.
VIDEO

Note that the Human Rights Watch spokesman is none other than Marc Garlasco, the same guy who's penchant for collecting Nazi memorabilia and cruising Nazi chat rooms led to his "resignation" from HRW.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:19 PM

I personally know 2 people who served in the IDF.

It is common for them to do patrols, guard posts such as one in the video ... day in and day out a constant barrage of rocks, glass bottles thrown at them, constant shreiking going on, and yes many times guns going off ... they don't shoot back. They do so only when the heat get's extremly hot and they themselves are in definate danger.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:32 PM

MGOH,

Of course you could go back to the Crusades, with Christians massacring Jews, along with the Arabs with whom they were living amicably. There's hardly ever anywhere you can draw a line in history and say "that's where it all started".

Oh No Kevin you do not get away with that. There is a very clear historical start to what we now call the Middle-East Problem, it started at the end of the Great War and the break-up of the Ottoman Empire - Arab/Jewish problems prior to that? Non-existent and there had been settlement by Jews entering the area under Turkish rule for damn near 70 years!!!

The clear and obvious start point Kevin is the League of Nations Mandate that called for the setting up of a Jewish Homeland in Palestine.

To Lox, having looked at the video, the Palestinians who filmed the guy shooting through the hole in the wall were shielded from the IDF position by the factory they were firing into. The Israeli soldiers might have heard them they certainly would not have been able to see them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:37 PM

"Lox, you are blinded by hatred. "

I hate murder.

But my eyes are clear.


PS Bill, Bobad et al,

In your Video, the roof of the Israeli watchtower is on fire.



Do the IDF have a policy of burning to death until shot at?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:42 PM

It's probably fireproof ... molatov cocktails are commonly used ... any such post's construction would account for such weapons.

come on Lox ... you can do better than that.


biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:50 PM

The clear and obvious start point Kevin is the League of Nations Mandate that called for the setting up of a Jewish Homeland in Palestine.

Well, the Balfour Declaration came before that, but yes, that was the bad idea that started the whole thing off. The whole ugly "a land without a people for a people without a land" lie. The scraping of Palestinians to make room for Jewish settlers (still happening today!).

If somebody said, "We're going to carve out a Muslim homeland in southeast England -- they have been settling there peacefully for years, and it's only fair," would the English be happy with it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:50 PM

"Jim Carroll for some reason wants to go back to 1982 "
Er... no he doesn't - he wants to find some way out of the present mess, and the only way to do this is to work out a compromise that could provide the basis for a settlement.
The present Israeli drive to acquire territory, and the opposition to that drive can be dated back to the Six Day War; the logical starting place, for me - within living memory.
I'm not seeking an overall victory for one side or the other, just a practical basis to conduct negotions.
Otherwise, why not go back to the concept of 'The Promised Land' - I'm sure you'd find enough religious nutters to back the claim and carry on the fight until someone presses the button, then you can all happily go to meet their maker, happy in the conviction that they have 'fought the good fight'.
The present conflict is down to a botched attempt to create a Jewish homeland, not unsimilar to equally mess situations left behind in Ireland and in India/Pakistan.
You fellers seem happy to let the killing go on till Israel wins, by whatever method at their disposal - total victory, nothing less.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:58 PM

Bollocks Bill.

The IDF reacts with swift brutality to peaceful demonstrations.

The idea that they would sit in a burning building surrounded by armed men who are firing off live ammo without making any attempt to disperse them is political satire on a plate.

I note by the way that there are quite a few now who are lning up to defend Israeli violence.


If Jim is defending Hamas rockets then he can go and join you lot on the naughty step.

It doesn't change my position one bit.

I oppose killing civilians, you guys ... all ... dfend it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: bobad
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 04:09 PM

I hear the distant hissing of hot air as the bag deflates.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 04:32 PM

yes ... bobad .... I do hear the hot air bag deflating.

Well ... interesting video Bobad. Forget about asking if it is justifiable if Israeli's should fire rockets at Palestinans to ... is it justifiable for Palestinians militants to fire rockets into crowds of Palestinian civilians.

It's all madness

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 04:49 PM

It is clearly a horrendous crime to fire rockets at either Israelis or palestinians and I repeat my condemnation of that.

No hot air bags deflating though, ... in fact you seem to have plenty in reserve ...

... I think I may have confused you by blowing a raspberry at your pathetic smugness.


When you've answered my questions realistically we'll talk about who's full of hot air.

Would you care to provide any more red herrings as part of your mealy mouthed support for Israeli aggression against innocent civilians?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 04:52 PM

By the way,

On the subject of Jim, note the word "if".

Note also that "if" he can be said to support violence, then that puts him in the same category as you.

So if you despise him, you sentence yourself to the same status by your own set of criteria.

Idiots.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 05:00 PM

Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country (1991)

Quote one:
(Dictating his personal log)
Captain James T. Kirk: "Captain's log, stardate 9522.6: I've never trusted Klingons, and I never will. I could never forgive them for the death of my boy. It seems to me our mission to escort the Chancellor of the Klingon High Council to a peace summit is problematic at best. Spock says this could be an historic occasion, and I'd like to believe him, but how on earth can history get past people like me?"

Quote 2:
Captain Spock: "What you want is irrelevant, what you have chosen is at hand".


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: number 6
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 05:04 PM

Actually ... I don't give a rat's ass about Jim .. I don't despise him or anyone else posting to this thread. I don't even despise the Palestinians. I just try to present some actual facts that can be presented to bring some rationality to the madness ... if you can't get down to a point of rationality you'll never find any solution to peace ... can you.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 05:28 PM

"I just try to present some actual facts"

No - You've expressed a few opinions and provided a decidedly dodgy video.


But something you said nearly escaped me ... until just now ...


"Forget about asking if it is justifiable if Israeli's should fire rockets at Palestinans to ... is it justifiable for Palestinians militants to fire rockets into crowds of Palestinian civilians."

I've just realized that you were sharing a little joke with Bobad there Bill ... you think thats funny ...

Then there's ...

"I don't even despise the Palestinians."


What? ... not even Palestinians? ... Wow - you are magnanimous ...

You're so open minded that you don't EVEN despise Palestinians.


Well Bill, in the company of such a worldly open minded chap such as yourself I find that there is indeed something to be learned with each days passing.


This thread is too long now so I'm going to abdicate and leave it to someone with more patience.

Peace/Shalom/Islam to you all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 05:46 PM

Personally I dont give a shit what people think of me, especially those who lend their support to militaristic thugs.
The arrogant smugness of these posts is reminiscent of the behaviour of the Israelis as described to be by a friend who attended the International Ballad Conference in Jerusalem in 1996 (I still have his 'beam me up Scotty' postcard) towards the 'lesser mortals' who had the balls to oppose them and act to confirm of my own position, should I need it.
None of you have made any sort of case, and all of you, by your silence, have given your implicit support to Israeli human rights abuses.
Strut on fellers, you make our case as well as anybody could.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: number 6
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 06:04 PM

good .... maybe this will be the end of of this thread ... I hope.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 06:06 PM

We dont generally define the people of a country by their government. For example, most did not define USA folks by the unfortunate Bush era.

So, should we define Isrealies and Palistinians by their governments.Is it not possible that these governments may have an agenda that is quite distant from the average citizens perspectives and desires?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 07:53 PM

What biLL said at 6:04pm!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: bobad
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 08:18 PM

"Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding. . . ."

Albert Einstein


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 09:03 PM

""Just consider, just for a moment......Duhh....maybe they are acting in self defense...I mean just maybe........""

Yeah!.....And just maybe they accidentally fell out of those helicopters, and landed on that ship?

But it ain't too bloody likely!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 09:46 PM

We dont generally define the people of a country by their government. For example, most did not define USA folks by the unfortunate Bush era.

So, should we define Isrealies and Palistinians by their governments.Is it not possible that these governments may have an agenda that is quite distant from the average citizens perspectives and desires?


Sadly, yes. And Israelis that protest against their government's policies are punished. We don't know what happens to Palestinians who protest against their government's policies but I have to assume it's equally bad if not worse.

Israeli policy seems to be set by the ultra-Orthodox rabbis. Peace-lovers all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 10:39 PM

There are some logical points to be made of the kind of inconsistencies that aid to the back-and-forth with no resolution in this thread, making it more blather than bother.

When Palestinians fire rockets across a border into civilian areas of Israel, this is not defense. A defensive weapon can be an anti-aircraft missile fired at an attacking aircraft. It can be armed men against armed men.

Firing a weapon into a civilian area with no military action in the offing can be an act of terror, an act of vengeance, a precipitate act of war, but it is not an act of defense.

Which leads me to my overall observation that until the Palestinians can convince Israel they want peace, I don't see an end to the conflict. If there is no end to the conflict, Israel can't be blamed for wanting to maintain a strong upper hand and this includes a blockade of weapons and materials that can be used to make weapons.

As an American looking at the situation from outside, I personally am not convinced the Palestinians want peace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 11:29 PM

As an American looking at the situation from outside, I personally am not convinced the Palestinians want peace.

Let's talk about the Israelis, too. Do they want peace? The Palestinians aren't encroaching on a new piece of Israeli land every 3 months. Even if the Palestinians wanted peace (and I daresay many of them do), why would they think it was in the offing? Israel certainly shows no signs of wanting it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 01:05 AM

"Logic and Reason are the deadly Enemies of Faith" - from the writings of Martin Luther.... :-O


"Firing a weapon into a civilian area with no military action in the offing"

The point has been made before that, logically, all Israeli citizens undergo military training, and then are part of the Militia Reserve, thus 'legitimate', though the 'legality' is doubted by some, 'targets'. Of course logically, there are their wives and children, just as the 'naughty terrorists' on the other side ALSO logically have wives and children....


"with no military action in the offing"

Oh shit, isn't it wonderful how words can be made to mean anything... tanks and planes that can pop up rapidly - how the bloody hell would ANYBODY KNOW that there IS NO "military action in the offing" - after all it HAS happened before, AND the MOST important military tactic is 'surprise'..... :-P


That's the trouble when you have 'faith' on one hand, and 'logic & reason' on the other.... endless 'roundy roundy' arguments... sigh.... and NEITHER side will give way cause their OWN magic invisible sky fairy told them that ONLY THEY are in the right... sigh ...

Well at least the blatant defamatory actions of psychotically maliciously twisting people's words to mean just only what the hearer wants has (mostly) died down till the next time somebody else has to metaphorically 'take up a shotgun'....


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 01:12 AM

"Which leads me to my overall observation that until the Palestinians can convince Israel they want peace, I don't see an end to the conflict"

Which leads me to my overall observation that until the Israelis can convince the Palestinians that they do not want to take away all their land, I don't see an end to the conflict ...

Do you need me to logically interpret/convert the rest of that paragraph for you all too? Or are you all possessed with a sufficient level of literacy to do it yourself?

This is what the problem with bigoted one sided faith does - it cannot see that the other side sees the exact reverse as also true....


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 01:26 AM

"As an American looking at the situation from outside, I personally am not convinced the Palestinians want peace. "

The normal one sided response.

I'm not convinced that anyone on either side, and most especially their financial and military supporters around the globe, want 'peace', other than that of the grave0.

Neither side has yet digested the experience of a sufficient 'river of blood' to outweigh the endless emotive bigoted rantings stirring up each side to 'even things up' - in Ireland they at least reached that point a while ago....


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 02:20 AM

Israel wasn't interested in peace in March, 2010:

It's not the first time that Israel has stiffed Barack Obama over his attempts to kick-start Middle East peace negotiations. But the sudden, highly inflammatory announcement of plans to build an additional 1,600 homes in occupied East Jerusalem, in the midst of a visit to Israel of US vice-president Joe Biden, was certainly the most brutally contemptuous rebuff so far to American peacemaking. (Guardian)

Israel wasn't interested in peace in July, 2010:

The Israeli authorities have used bulldozers to demolish three buildings in occupied East Jerusalem. Israeli officials said the action was taken to enforce court orders against - what they called - illegal and unpopulated structures. But residents say two of the buildings were inhabited by Palestinian families, while the third was a warehouse. The demolitions came a day after Israeli authorities approved the construction of 32 new homes in a Jewish settlement in East Jerusalem. (BBC)

What about that settlement freeze that Israel imposed on itself? Surely that shows Israel's good faith?

Israeli watchdog group Peace Now has released Monday a report on the reality of the moratorium on the ground over the past months. Over 600 settlement projects have begun, with nearly 500 of those housing projects in direct violation of the freeze, according to Peace Now's assessment. (PalestineNote)


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 05:53 AM

"I personally am not convinced the Palestinians want peace."
I am personally convinced of who does NOT want peace.
Don't know how far the current state of affairs in Israeli has been reported elsewhere, but there is apparently a huge power struggle going on over who should be appointed as the new Chief of Staff of the Israeli Army, complete with smear tactics and dirty-tricks campaign.
It has been stated by a former C.o.S. that one of the deciding factors of who should be appointed is WHETHER IRAN SHOULD BE ATTACKED IN ORDER TO PREVENT IT FROM OBTAINING NUCLEAR WEAPONS.
I wonder do I want an terrorist state capable of horrendous and well-proven war crimes acting as self-appointed peace keeper in one of the most unstable parts of our planet - where's my Vera Lynn records!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:15 AM

No, no no,..I think you,ve gotten it confused. Your understanding of looking at International Politics, cannot be misunderstood by looking at your Intestinal Polyps. There is a big difference....though the latter may have given you greater pleasure!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:57 AM

GfS
Your posting makes as much sense as trusting Israel - with anything.
It appears that your happy with a group of religious nutters acting as neuclear plocemen - then again, why wouldn't you, given your previous postings
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 09:13 AM

If peace were to break out with all it's Arab neighbors, Israel would probably have a lot of internal strife. So, could Arab hostility towards Israel be the glue that holds it firmly together, serving as a threat to unify the various factions?

If true, I suspect there is plenty of fodder to retain a strong Israel for awhile.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 09:41 AM

QUOTE
If peace were to break out with all it's Arab neighbors, Israel would probably have a lot of internal strife. So, could Arab hostility towards Israel be the glue that holds it firmly together, serving as a threat to unify the various factions?

If true, I suspect there is plenty of fodder to retain a strong Israel for awhile.
UNQUOTE

2 points - your 2nd one first - actually what you mean is that in order to retain 'that strong country' we need to have it rampaging around murdering whoever it wants to suppress its own internal civil conflicts?

"could Arab hostility towards Israel be the glue that holds it firmly together, serving as a threat to unify the various factions?"

It's happened before - wanna pick an African or South American, or European state - oh, and just how far in history?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 10:57 AM

One question for all those chattering on about stealing land every three months: "Why not what are the Palestinians doing with it? Sweet FA as far as I can see."

Another question for you: "Why are there Palestinian refugee camps in the West Bank and in Gaza? The land is Palestinian FFS"

"OCCUPIED EAST JERUSALEM" Go and take a look at the 1923 map of Palestine and Trans-Jordan - look where Jerusalem is (HINT: You will find it in Palestine, ie. not in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan). The ONLY country that has EVER ILLEGALY OCCUPIED Jerusalem has been Jordan. It did so from 1948 to 1967, up until then there was never any mention of East and West Jerusalem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 11:20 AM

"actually what you mean is that in order to retain 'that strong country' we need to have it rampaging around murdering whoever it wants to suppress its own internal civil conflicts

That is your interpretation of my post, not mine. I try to avoid demonizing peoples of any nation....as, personally, I see no point of even getting into those types of discussions (that often lead to discourse). However, discussing governments, who are actually in control, are a different matter to me.

My point is, government interests from all fronts in the conflict, and their organizational agenda (short and longer term), are likely what is driving the conflict, and not necessarily the current plight of the civilians....as some tend to innocently speculate is the driving force, as seen from their vantage point. Conflicts, and a fear of other nations can and does put other divisive internal issues on the back burner... history books can supply examples.

What drives government is keeping in power and satisfying the vested interests (long, and shorter term) that control them.

The Hammas government (and other factions) have their agenda and interests to satisfy. So does Israel, neighboouring countries and other nations involved. We may see the sufforing of civilians as a paramount issue, (which may not be the major concern by other governments), fueling the conflict... since they are not focusing on peace.

So, (on the thread topic) regardless of whether it is intentionally done or not, I put the suggestion forward that firing rockets into Israel, (ignoring if they are effective in killing citizens or not), strengthens the Israeli government among the citizenry ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 12:31 PM

firing rockets into Israel, (ignoring if they are effective in killing citizens or not), strengthens the Israeli government among the citizenry ?

Of course it does. And Israel responds in a way that ensures that rockets will continue to be fired, keeping it that way. Not too many rockets, just enough...


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: bobad
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 01:17 PM

The intent of Israel's response is to stop the rockets being fired at their citizens.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 01:28 PM

Just to speculate....my mind was wandering and, (outside the negativity of civilian suffering) I list a few possible reasons why maintaining the Israel-Hamas conflict could actually be viewed as a good thing by some governments, in and outside the Arab World.

The conflict takes attention away from internal problems of that country (lack of reform by interest groups, economic issues, religion etc) of that particular country. (Many nations in the Region, such as Saudi Arabia and Iran).

Keeps international militant attention focused on this region and the plight of the citizens impacted. (Many nations)

Limits other potential Palestinian land claims in neighboring countries (for example, Jordan).

An opportunity to increase power, and prestige within the region and within the Muslim worked. (Iran, Syria, Turkey).

Supportsd interests by some for a Muslim governments throughout the region.

An economic opportunity from arm sales and to maintain a non-Arab military superiority in the region, for a counterbalance. (EU, Russia, China, USA)

Keeping Israel's military strong, to keep evolving regional powers in check, (Western countries)

Provides espionage opportunities. (USA)

Limits Palestinian refuge problems, and export of the conflict into neighboring countries (remember Lebanon).

Reaction to internal pressures from interest groups to get involved (Arab countries, USA)


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 01:31 PM

"The intent of Israel's response is to stop the rockets being fired at their citizens".

I suspect so.

But, considering the limited military impact, why does Hammas allow them to continued to be fired, for what benefit, and who benefits?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 01:42 PM

No it isn't - open aggression towards the Palestinians has been going on for at least thirty years - including two major massacres.
"OCCUPIED EAST JERUSALEM" Go and take a look at the 1923 map of Palestine and Trans-Jordan"
Another seeker of the Promised Land and an all-out victory for Israeli aggression - and it's the Palestinians who don't want peace - yeah, right!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: bobad
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 02:14 PM

"But, considering the limited military impact, why does Hammas allow them to continued to be fired, for what benefit, and who benefits?"

The benefit is the widespread opprobrium that befalls Israel when it responds. As demonstrated on Mudcat there is no shortage of those who avail themselves of every opportunity to heap hate on to them. As shown in Richard Landes' videos, Hamas are quite skilled at orchestrating atrocities for which there is no shortage of dupes ready to buy into. This confers on them a folk hero status among thir neighbours - you know the "standing up to the little satan" routine. It also increases the financial aid they receive from their proxy master, Iran.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 02:25 PM

Jim,

Will you please tell me why Israel should allow Arabs access to Jerusalem at all? Isn't it only fair that they treat Arabs as Jews were treated when the Arabs had control of Jerusalem, from 1948 to 1967?


The chances that Israel will give up ANY of Jerusalem is less than you ever admitting that the Palestinians are guilty of war crimes, and that Israel has the right to exist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 02:51 PM

bobad,

To be clear, are you suggesting that Hamas: directly or indirectly, puts their citizens at risk, and subjects them to diplorable conditions, by supporting or initiating actions (orchestrating atrocities) against Israel, to initiate a retalitory response to get support and finnaces from supporters and the international community?

Did I capture it right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: bobad
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 03:03 PM

It's pretty obvious, don't you think, Ed?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 03:13 PM

"Peace will come to the Middle East when the Arabs love their children more than they hate us" .... Golda Meir


biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 03:19 PM

To tell you the truth, that thought once entered my mind.

But, then I reasoned alot of folks seem to support, stand up for, like and even promote Hamas. I thought that it was not likely that these normally reasoned folks would be duped into doing that. I also considered it unlikely because, what dastardly government would do that kind of thing to its own people, let alone the kids and women of a neighbour.

I know, there are those suicide bomber folks....but they don't do things to kill their own. And, there have been some evil governments in history. But, most of those were led by some ego-wacko fellows.

With this, I am going to have to reflect and start to give it some deeper thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 04:33 PM

One question for all those chattering on about stealing land every three months: "Why not what are the Palestinians doing with it? Sweet FA as far as I can see."

Another question for you: "Why are there Palestinian refugee camps in the West Bank and in Gaza? The land is Palestinian FFS"


1. If you're not using your back 40 acres, I can steal it from you? Sweet. That's just fucked up, dude.

2. Because their homes, which were stolen from them in 1952 (if I remember right - maybe 1953 - the absentee land grab law) are in Israel.

Those were easy. Any more?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: robomatic
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 04:33 PM

Check out "The Battle of Algiers". Relevant to the behavior of Hamas, Hezbollah, The Talibaners, and Al Qaeda.

These folks know what they're doing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 05:20 PM

"Isn't it only fair that they treat Arabs as Jews were treated when the Arabs had control of Jerusalem, from 1948 to 1967?"
Is that the way your mind works?
Maybe we should have allowed the Jewish Concentration Camp survivors to kick the shit out of every German they laid hands on after the war - that would have evened things up a bit.
We are now in 2010 with a problem bequethed by history, shitty politicians and strutting militarist who are quite likely to start a confligration in the Middle East by attacking a Muslim country, and all you can suggest is taking it out on the ordinary Palestinian people for something that happened - when was it you said - 1948 to '67, when many of them wouldn't have been born, never mind responsible for what happened then?
You've obviously given this a lot of thought - maybe you should apply for the job as Israeli Army Chief of Staff - such imagination really deserves the glittering prizes.
You people really are sickos.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 05:59 PM

"Isn't it only fair that they treat Arabs as Jews were treated when the Arabs had control of Jerusalem, from 1948 to 1967?"

"Maybe we should have allowed the Jewish Concentration Camp survivors to kick the shit out of every German they laid hands on after the war - that would have evened things up a bit."

Not at all, Mr. Carroll. But this is why Jerusalem must be part of Israel in a Two State Solution. Never again should Jews be barred from their Holy sites as they were post-1948. Israel has proved itself to be ecumenical in the handling of Jerusalem since 1967.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:04 PM

"That is your interpretation of my post, not mine."

And this is of course the whole problem at base of many differing opinions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:14 PM

"And this is of course the whole problem at base of many differing opinions".

I see few "problems" with "differing opinions" and a diversity of views. In fact, I see these adding to a respectful discussion and to knowledge. That is, if one is seeking such, and is open to consider other interpretations and opinions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:30 PM

"Never again should Jews be barred from their Holy sites as they were post-1948. Israel has proved itself to be ecumenical in the handling of Jerusalem since 1967. "
And so we scurrying back behind a 2000 year old myth to excuse modern day atrocities - incuding 2 major massacres which none of you have the balls even to acknowledge, never mind explain - god protect us all from religious nuts!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:35 PM

"...god protect us all from religious nuts!"

If that's all you got, you got nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:47 PM

Israel has proved itself to be ecumenical in the handling of Jerusalem since 1967.

For values of "ecuemenical" meaning "bulldozing Palestinian homes to make room for parks for tourists" (among other things).


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:48 PM

And I see you didn't respond, just as you and your heroes haven't responded to the atrocities committed presumably in yours or whoever's god's name.
The religion you are espousing doesn't even seem to cover common decency man to man and is quite happy to sanction the slaughter of millions in its name - and I have nothing?
That may be your twisted outlook on human life, it sure ain't mine, and I'll happily settle for nothing as an alternative.
Sorry, don't call me - I'll call you.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:51 PM

If they wanted peace, than firing missiles is the way to achieve it???

Jim, you have twisted logic beyond anything sane, just to accommodate your biases....and yet you don't have the balls to say that you support the Hamas missiles being fired on the Israeli citizenry. To be consistent with that, you must be a closet supporter of the lovely, oppressed, peace loving, religious 'holy folks', taking their missionary message of love and peace, to the radical aggressor passengers on Lockerbie Pan Am Flight 103. Nor the justifiable 'mercy killing' of those savage infidel commuters at the train station in Spain...you know, those 'aggressors' in Spain! ...and those damn, oppressing Israeli Olympic athletes, in 1972..look at all their atrocities, upon the poor under trodden Palestinians!
It now becomes pretty obvious, that THOUGH these people, your prejudicial hostilities are acted out and carried through. ....Though you probably don't have the balls to admit that either..

Your way of looking at things is ass-backwards and your hostilities are over generalized. Just like you'd rather blame the WHOLE of the Catholic Church, for cleric abuse, rather than the individual homosexual priests who did it!!

YOU'VE GOT ISSUES!....and of course, you'll dismiss them, just because it was 'me' that is pointing them out to you...but, it should be pretty obvious to ANY one reading YOUR posts, of misplaced, broad-brush painting of hatred, upon Catholics and Jews...instead of the actual individual perpetrators of stupid, and hostile acts, upon the true victims!.....
...then you mask it with this 'quasi-eloquent' sophistry....but you CANNOT hide, well enough, this anti-social rage laying in you. It's more obvious than you'd like to think!...which by itself, DELUSION!

When people are attacked, a self defensive response should, would and could have, be expected....JUST LIKE YOU FEEL NOW!!!...except, I am talking about innocent women, children and non=violent, non-aggressive citizens, who have a right to live in peace...except in your mind!

Most Sincerely,
GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 07:07 PM

"than the individual homosexual priests who did it!!"
Homophobic as well as racist - I have just remembered our earlier confrontations when you went on a 'queer-bashing spree'. Most psychologists would describe your condition as indicative of latent homosexuality, so if it persists worrying you I would have it checked out if I were you.
I have stated my attitude as clearly as I can regarding the bombardment - there is no simple yes-or-no answer but I have given it as best I can; which is more than you or any of your heroic friends have even attempted as regard Israeli atrocities.
The rest of your posting is somewhat foaming-at-the mouth rant - get help.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: bobad
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 07:08 PM

"god protect us all from religious nuts!"

I take it you are referring to the "religious nuts" who govern Gaza. The "religious nuts" in Israel, while they do have some influence on the government due to the coalition situation there, at least are not in a position to lead their citizenry into suicidal attacks upon their neighbours. The influence they have is the price of democracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: bobad
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 07:19 PM

"You people really are sickos." Jim Carroll

If by "you people" you mean those who haven't joined you in demonizing Israel, those who believe that Israel is a legitimate country and as such has the right to defend itself from being attacked by it's neighbours, those who empathize with the innocent citizens of Gaza who are suffering because of the actions of Hamas and those who are not gullible enough to accept the words of Hamas as gospel and reject those of Israel as being biased - well, count me in!


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 07:36 PM

"If by "you people" you mean those who haven't joined you in demonizing Israel,"
No, I mean those who justify slaughter in the name of your god whoever he or she may be, AND STILL STAY SILENT ABOUT THE ATROCITIES COMMITTED IN HIS OR HER NAME.
I have no great time for Catholicism, but at least they 'confess' their sins and not stay siilent about them
Spineless bastards all.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 07:46 PM

Jim: "No, I mean those who justify slaughter in the name of your god whoever he or she may be, AND STILL STAY SILENT ABOUT THE ATROCITIES COMMITTED IN HIS OR HER NAME.
I have no great time for Catholicism, but at least they 'confess' their sins and not stay siilent about them
Spineless bastards all."

how about Spanish train commuters?/...Do they meet your criteria?
Israeli athletes?...Patrons of Pa Am?..You left these savage, religious nuts out of your mix........and these are only for starters!!!..There are more.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 08:24 PM

Jim Carroll: "Jim: "No, I mean those who justify slaughter in the name of your god whoever he or she may be, AND STILL STAY SILENT ABOUT THE ATROCITIES COMMITTED IN HIS OR HER NAME."

Surely you can't mean the rest of Muslims, worldwide, can you??

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 10:38 PM

"If they wanted peace, than firing missiles is the way to achieve it???"

Things have now reached the stage where all active participants seem to only want the Peace of The Grave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 11:08 PM

Things have now reached the stage where all active participants seem to only want the Peace of The Grave.

Sad but appears to be true. I wonder if the people who rail against the Gazans for voting in Hamas also rail at the Israelis for voting in Likud?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 12:19 AM

Mousethief you have not answered my questions at all:

Question 1: for all those chattering on about stealing land every three months: "Why not what are the Palestinians doing with it? Sweet FA as far as I can see."

Answer 1: If you're not using your back 40 acres, I can steal it from you? Sweet. That's just fucked up, dude.

Well no it is not actually Dude, if you live in a very small country with an increasing population, there is no land that can be allowed to go to waste. The USA, Canada and Australia do not have such problems other countries have. To put a folk music twist to it, just such a law exists in the UK, look into the Seumas Mor song entitled "The Seven Men of Knoydart". Billions upon billions of every currency in the world have been thrown in aid at the "Palestinians" (Arabs) and they have done absolutely nothing with that at all, not one bloody cent of it has been spent benefiting "the people", they have wasted and squandered the lot.

Question 2: "Why are there Palestinian refugee camps in the West Bank and in Gaza? The land is Palestinian FFS"

Answer 2: Because their homes, which were stolen from them in 1952 (if I remember right - maybe 1953 - the absentee land grab law) are in Israel.

Pity that the camps were set up for the Palestinian Arabs, on Palestinian land by Egyptians and Jordanians in 1949. So events of 1952 or 1953 have no relevance. At the same time round about 820,000 Jews who had been dispossessed and deported from Arab countries all over the world were dumped on Israel. The Israeli's did not shut those people up in camps to make political pawns out of them, they welcomed them in and absorbed them into the fabric of their communities. While people chatter on about Palestinian Arab right of return, the right of return or compensation for these 820,000 Jews is conveniently ignored.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 01:03 AM

So their land was stolen in 1948, presumably during "Operation Clean Sweep" (an ethnic cleansing by Israeli forces). My bad.

I answered your questions, you just don't like my answers.

I'm sorry, but saying that because no Palestinians were using that land at the time, it's okay for Israel to steal it, is just messed up. So any crowded country can steal adjacent land from a neighbouring country if it's not being used? (Although not all the settlements and outposts are on adjoining land, it should be said.) I really doubt there's any such provision in international law. Show me I'm wrong and I'll admit it. And of course occupied Palestinian homes were demolished last month by Israel. So your "they're not using it" thing doesn't even cover all the cases I mentioned.

Israel clearly is not interested in peace.

Your desire to exonerate Israel of any wrongdoing is typical of your allies on this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 01:11 AM

AND.....Jim Carroll: "I have no great time for Catholicism, but at least they 'confess' their sins and not stay siilent about them..."

My, isn't that a 'Jimmy Reversal' of what you were fuming about in the thread about the Catholic Church, and the clergy, molesting children??

What is this?? Selective hatred, at the appropriately 'politically correct time'???......OR, are you just as good as the last person you talked to???

At least the Pope publicly forgave the Muslim who shot him,attempting to assassinate him....instead of lobbing Vatican missiles into his homeland..into domestic neighborhoods!

As much as I don't agree with all of the tenets of Catholicism, that one act of forgiveness, kicked the assassin's ass, and ALL he stands for...for all those who 'got it'.

Come on, now keep up!

With Love in my heart...even for you,

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 03:39 AM

"Never again should Jews be barred from their Holy sites"
And with that statement John puts this all in a nutshell - a fundamentailsm that allows thousands of refugees to be herded into camps and slaughtered, and allows the apologists for the people who did it to remain silent in their support for such bestiality.
No - I don't support any such act by ANY religion, Judaism, Islam, Christianity, ANY RELIGION.
For me, the situation in Gaza is about the inhuman treatment of the ordinary people of that City who are bombed, slaughtered made homeless, have their schools and hospitals destroyed and their livelihoods, even the basic necessities of day-to-day living taken away, while the rest of the world stands by murmuring small sounds of regret and little else, (except to assist their persecutors to obtain Nuclear weapons so that they can continue to 'fight the good fight' in tht troubled part of the world) because it is not in their political and economic interest to do so.
And all so their persecutors can have access to their "Holy sites" - yet another holy war; thank you for summing it up so succinctly John.
My hatred of violence does not extend as far as asking these persecuted people to lay down their arms, their only form of defence, as paltry as it is, in the face of what is being thrown at them; the recent history of this conflict has provided enough examples of what they might expect should they surrender to such an vicious enemy.
I wonder if, should the world be plunged into a shooting war with Iran, as seems possible, our apologists will continue to sing the praises of the aggressors as loudly as they do here - I suppose they will.
Jim Carroll
PS GfS - if you can find any contradicition in my attitude here and my stance on clerical child abuse, please feel free to point it out - I await your offering with much interest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 04:17 AM

Jim....Good post, OK?...I believe we can reason together...seriously.
What I'd like to do, is check some homework, and give you some historical data, so I don't risk being inaccurate with the fine points, in regards to this 'God awful' mess of hate and fear, over there, which is spreading all over this planet. Please, keep in mind, that what I'd like to share with you, is meant from heart to heart..because ALL hate, and fear and forms of violent aggression, are fed and fueled by the collective conscience of ALL of us. To be truly against it, and combat the real enemy, we must be clear of that same negative energy!...take this to heart, and anyone else out there in cyber-land, who may be reading this: THE ENERGY YOU PUT INTO A SYSTEM, TENDS TO CHANGE THAT SYSTEM!!!...and this I promise you, being as I assume you are a musician, that if you grab what I'm going to try to turn you on to, your music, sensitivity, and the ability to communicate PEACE, and LOVE, through your music, and have people identify that, in themselves, because of what your music is reaching in them, your music and abilities, will blow you away!!!!!..and also those who hear it!!...Promise!..Fair enough?..I'll get back to you, when I check my stuff.
Until then, relax, take it easy.

Peace(?),

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 06:43 AM

I couldn't resist this exchange.

"Mousethief you have not answered my questions at all:

Question 1: for all those chattering on about stealing land every three months: "Why not what are the Palestinians doing with it? Sweet FA as far as I can see."

Answer 1: If you're not using your back 40 acres, I can steal it from you? Sweet. That's just fucked up, dude.

Well no it is not actually Dude, if you live in a very small country with an increasing population, there is no land that can be allowed to go to waste."


Let me see if I've got this right ...

Israel is a small country and doesn't have much living room.

Palestinians aren't using their land in a way that Teribus feels justifies their possession of it.

Therefore Israelis have the right to annex any land that they feel they would make better use of than the palestinians are.

Annexing neighbouring territory because space is limited ...

... there's a word for that ...

Lebensraum.


Then I saw this amusing tit-bit from GfS:

"Jim....Good post, OK?...I believe we can reason together...seriously."

The answer to which GfS is that reasoning with Jim also requires you to be able to think and speak coherently.

This is very unlikely to happen in our lifetime.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 09:48 AM

""Never again should Jews be barred from their Holy sites""

Sigh - but those holy sites also belong to others, so nobody has any right to ban anybody else...

Do you know WHO looks after and guards/protects the most holy sites (for ALL the several religions who hold the sites in mutual respect) in Jerusalem - hint - it was NOT Jews - unless they have run off those who did the job for ages.... and THEY didn't ban anybody.... Sigh - people's lack of knowledge about much of the rubbish they spout about this subject is amazing.... I learned about it easily enough, and I haven't even BEEN there ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 11:10 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 11:11 AM

400

Brain-LOX: "The answer to which GfS is that reasoning with Jim also requires you to be able to think and speak coherently."

Huhh??

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 11:17 AM

"'Never again should Jews be barred from their Holy sites'
And with that statement John puts this all in a nutshell - a fundamentalism that allows thousands of refugees to be herded into camps and slaughtered, and allows the apologists for the people who did it to remain silent in their support for such bestiality."

Sorry, Mr. Carroll, I didn't, say that; I didn't, mean that; and I did not imply that. That is your own hate-filled interpretation. Actually, your statement does not accurately represent the facts on the ground, nor has it anything to do with what I wrote.

I did write that Jerusalem should be within Israel in a two state solution. I did not write that other groups should be excluded from living there. I did write that Jews should control their Holy sites; I did not write others should be excluded from them. In fact, I pointed out that Israel has allowed access to such places to all religions since regaining Jerusalem...which is more than can be said for Jordan when it occupied the West Bank.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 12:12 PM

"That is your own hate-filled interpretation. "
My hate is confined to those who kill and persecute civilians, whether for some metaphysical reason or for the aquisition of territory, and for those who support that killing and persecution, either directly or by their silence. My respect for your opinion might be influenced considerably by a commment from you on recognised Israeli atrocities rather than your continued silence, which in its way, speaks as loudly as any words can.
Your statement suggests that you regard this as a holy war. As far as I'm concerned nobody should be made to suffer or die for the religious beliefs of others - and that includes all religions.
"Huhh??"
Yup - that just about sums it up.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 12:31 PM

Mr. Carroll, your post at 12:12pm is truly Orwellian. The use of the term 'Holy sites' in no way implies a 'holy war'. But you go on thinking and writing that kind of tripe. I'm sure it makes you feel better.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 12:32 PM

So any crowded country can steal adjacent land from a neighbouring country if it's not being used?

Now what adjacent country would you be taking about in Jerusalem mousethief? The bit that Jordan illegally "annexed" in 1948 which Israel took back in 1967, i.e. the bit that has always belonged to the Palestine defined in 1923 by the British with the authorisation and approval of the League of Nations, and which NEVER belonged to Jordan?

Lox is there such a country as Palestine? The answer to that question is: "No there is not"

Gaza used to be in British Mandated Palestine it was therefore open to settlement by anybody only Trans-Jordan was reserved solely for Arab occupation. In 1948 Egypt illegally invaded annexed and occupied Gaza. In 1967 the Israelis drove them out and returned Gaza to what formerly used to be known as Palestine. On 1st September 2005 the Israeli unilaterally gave up Gaza to the Palestinians.

The West Bank and East Jerusalem used to be in British Mandated Palestine and as such open to settlement by anybody. In 1948 Jordanillegally invaded, annexed and occupied the West Bank of the Jordan and part of Jerusalem which up until that point had been a undivided city. In 1967 Israeli forces drove the Jordanians out. The Jordanians maintained their claim on the terrirtory, a claim that was never recognised by any international body until 1988. With the exception of East Jerusalem and the former Israeli - Jordanian no man's land, the West Bank was not annexed by Israel.

The Israeli's have every right to build in Jerusalem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 12:37 PM

Wouldn't it be a good idea for everyone posting in this thread to decide not to write posts in a way that sets out to insult the people with whom they are arguing? What's the point of doing that? Does it do anything to add strength to the position you are advocating, or to weaken the position which you are criticising?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 01:12 PM

Mr. Carroll, please accept my apology for the sarcasm in my last post. It was unseemly.

That said, I marvel at the specific way you frame your argument about whom you hate. It is very specific, so as to be almost inarguable. It reminds me of the way many contracts and laws are made in the United State (I don't know where you are, and it may be different there if not the US) which are so specific that only one entity can possibly meet the requirements, thereby being the only one to benefit from the law or contract.

For instance:
Your statement--"My hate is confined to those who kill and persecute civilians, whether for some metaphysical reason or for the aquisition of territory, and for those who support that killing and persecution, either directly or by their silence."

A hypothetical government bill:
"Bidders on this contract shall have they headquarters in our city. They will have performed this service for a minimum of ten years, and performed this service on a minimum of 25 projects. They will have operating funds in excess of $500 million dollars. The corporate board shall consist of at least 33% officers who are covered by Equal Employment Opportunity Act."

Now there may be many companies which can perform the service quite adequately, or even better, but they don't meet all the provisions set forth in that bill. And that is a typical Jim Carroll (and some others) argument on these threads.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 01:20 PM

"Sigh - but those holy sites also belong to others, so nobody has any right to ban anybody else...
"


From 1948 to 1967, when the Arabs were in control of Jerusalem, Jews WERE NOT PERMITTED to visit the holy sites.

From 1967 onward, when Israel has been in control, ARABS have controlled who visits the Moslem Holy sites in Jerusalem.



And you criticise Israel????????


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 01:24 PM

Teribus,


"The Israeli's have every right to build in Jerusalem."

Yes ... except for the bits that they occupy illegally ...

Note the words "occupy" and "illegally" ... even better, go and look them up in a dictionary.

GfS writes:


"Brain-LOX: "The answer to which GfS is that reasoning with Jim also requires you to be able to think and speak coherently."

Huhh??

GfS"

Thus illustrating my point beautifully.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: number 6
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 01:39 PM

Wouldn't it be a good idea if everyone quit posting to this thread.

It just goes on ... and on ..... and on

It's not a debate anymore, or even an exchange of rational arguments.

Anyway, I'm outta this one ... I've expressed my views ... and pretty everyone has expressed their views, no need to regurgitate it all over, and over and over like a never ending wash cycle.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 01:40 PM

Was there a ban on Jews visiting Jerusalem from 1948 to 1967, rather than a ban on people with Israeli travel documents?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 01:47 PM

Jews


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 01:54 PM

A short video that that sheds some light on the question of Israel's land rights in international law.

San Remo's Mandate: Israel's 'Magna Carta'


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 02:48 PM

"The Israeli's have every right to build in Jerusalem."
And evict the tenants of 24 houses to build a tourist centre?
And pre-empt a court decision in a case that had been won by the tenants on several occasions previously, and go ahead and evict forty families from their homes.
As if the evictions aren't bad enough, the constant dehumanisation that takes place in Jerusalem is typical of the Israeli attitude towards people the appear to regard as lower beings.
A friend who attended the 1996 International Ballad Conference in Jerusalem described the constant humiliation of Arabs by Israeli police and soldiers who appeared to consider themselves some sort of 'Master Race'. He said that after a few days he wouldn't have been surprised to see Arabs wearing yellow stars.
This attitude was summed up pretty well for me with a story that appeared in the press some years ago of an Arab violinist who was stopped at a checkpoint and, on explaining he was on his way to a concert, was made to play for the guards, who lounged around sneering.
All spookily reminiscent of Fania Fénelon and her little orchestra who were forced to play for the Nazi officers in Auschwitz and Bergen Belsen.
John,
You and your supporters cite things that happened pre 1967 yet feel unable to comment on two massacres of refugees which took place in 1982, making you all a bunch of religious hypocrites.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 03:04 PM

Jim,

YOU seem to ignore all that happened before 1967- and until you understand the history, you are incompatent at telling anyone what to do to solve it.

At least with the massacres YOU note, there were trials and publicity- Tell me about the 20K Palestinians killed by Jordan?


Or if Arabs kill them, it's ok by you?


Show me ONE trial by Palestinians against an Arab killer of Israelis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 03:17 PM

Bruce - unlike you, I don't aim for a victory of one side over the other in this conflict but want to see a mutually agreed peace - whereas you seem to be heading for nothing short of Promised Land.
"Tell me about the 20K Palestinians killed by Jordan?"
Oh sorry, forgot about them; in that case tell your Israeli friends it's ok to slaughter anything up to that number; is that what you're saying?
As I said - you people really are the pits.
And the Shatila-Sabra massacres?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 03:39 PM

PS - As hard as I've looked I can find no reference whatever to the large scale slaughter of unarmed Palestinian refugees by Jordanians.
I have found descriptions of battles where large numbers of soldiers killed each other - but sorry; no slaughter of refugees. Perhaps you can enlighten us - as if it had the slightest bearing on the cold-blooded massacre of confined refugees by the people you are supporting - but whose atrocities you won't even acknowledge.
As I said - a bunch of fundamental religious hypocrites.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 03:43 PM

"And the Shatila-Sabra massacres?"


Conducted by Lebonese militias. I believe the Israelis who let them enter the camps were put on trial.

And waiting for ANY Palestinan trials of those who killed Israeli civilians of POWs.


"want to see a mutually agreed peace"

Mutual means BOTH sides- you have already stated that Israel has no say in the terms of YOUR "Peace"


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 03:50 PM

Hmmm. Religious hypocrite? Perhaps, but not in the context of anything I've written at Mudcat, here or ever. And never in any discussion of the Levantine problem at any time or any where. But name-calling becomes you (and don't expect an apology this time).

As to Sabra and Shatilla, the massacres were conducted by Lebanese militia. I do however fault the Israeli army for not intervening to stop the killing, as the perpetrators were their allies.

However, when Palestineans were expelled from Jordan, they set-up a state-within-a-state in the south of Lebanon. No need to repeat the details and history of the 1980s to you; you'll deny them anyway, because they don't fit your preconception of the problem.

And so, I think I'll take number6's, biLL's, advice, and bid adieu to this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 04:12 PM

Jim, Just like the radical Palestinian groups, and Israel, I have held out an olive branch to you...and what are you doing??..You're spitting out verbal missiles to your brothers on here. Really, you need to let it go. To champion another's hate, is to supply more hate...a far cry from forgiving your enemies...which of course, ends enemies. Remember, what I posted, "THE ENERGY YOU PUT INTO A SYSTEM, TENDS TO CHANGE THAT SYSTEM!!!." Neither the Palestinians nor the Israelis will come any closer to reconciliation, nor you with your fellow 'Mudcatters' by holding on to the differences, and generating contempt for each other. Nobody lobbed a missile at you, therefore, that SHOULD be an enabler to think with more clarity, and less hostile emotion...From THERE, 'Peace' can be lifted up...'Reason', then, is blocked if rationality is overshadowed, and replaced by hostile emotions! When one is 'CLEAR', and only then, can he/she, point the way!...if not you're just going to go round and round in circles....like the Mid-East. As for me, that conflict will NOT spread and consume my being, as it has their's. To point the way, find what it takes in you, to be at peace!!

Wishing You the Best,

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 04:31 PM

"I do however fault the Israeli army for not intervening to stop the killing,"
The Israelis provided the transport to the camps, the weapons and opened the gates to let the Phalangists in.
The investigation team judged Sharon guilty - he later became prime minister
Bye John - enjoy your hypocracy
You're rambling again GfS - take your pills
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 05:50 PM

"And the Shatila-Sabra massacres?"
Conducted by Lebonese militias. I believe the Israelis who let them enter the camps were put on trial.


And one was later made Prime Minister. There's justice for you. And also a good picture of how the Israeli electorate feels about the massacres.

Teribus:

Israel did not "take back" the West Bank in 1967. It has not annexed it. If it did, then every person living there would be an Israeli citizen. They are occupying that territory, and biting it off in chunks to give to Israeli settlers. Their aim is clearly to have it all (they have said no less; this point seems to pass people by), but drive the Palestinians out first, so it doesn't have to make them citizens. And you support this aim by your defense of the actions on the ground.

But you only talk about Jerusalem in your response. Have you conceded that they have no right to annex land in the West Bank, or do you just not have any good arguments about that right now? I'm waiting for something from recognized international law that says a country can steal territory that its rightful owners aren't using (to the extent that the thieves demand). I have a feeling I'm going to wait a long time. I think Jim had the right word for it. Lebensraum.

Did Jordan have a right to the West Bank? I can't say. But you seem to think that conquest confers all the rights necessary in that part of the world. You apply it lopsidedly, of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 06:02 PM

Mousecrook,

The West Bank was a part ( as was Gaza) of the portion of Mandate Palestine designated as the Jewish Homeland.

Jordan conquered it in 1948, but gave it back to Israel under the terms of the peace treaty where Jordan recognized Israel.

Egypt conquered Gaze in 1948, but returned it to Israel in the peace treaty where Egypt recognized Israel.

IN BOTH CASES, the conquering country recognized that the PALESTINIANS did not have the right to settle there, and kept them in refugee camps.

When Israel took back that territory, they allowed settlement of both Palestinians and Israelis on the West Bank. Gaza was GIVEN to the Palestinians, in exchange for the cessation of attacks- since the Hamas government has violated that, the Palestinians in Gaza have no right to even remain there.

Israel has stated that they were willing to trade land (parts of the West Bank, and Gaza) for PEACE.

So there is no right of the Palestinians to ANY of the West Bank or Gaze UNLESS THEY agree to peace- WHICH THEY HAVE NOT.

A State of WAR still exists- and BOTH sides are acting accordingly.

Israel HAS annexxed Jerusalem, and will not allow Jews to be prohibited from the Temple Mount. It has ALSO given the Arabs access AND CONTROL of the mosque on top of the Temple Mount, unlike when the Arabs controlled Jerusalem, and did not allow access to sites to all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 06:37 PM

It really would help if people arguing on both sides actually did their homework when talking about the background history.

What bruce just wrote in that post involves, no doubt unintentionally, a complete misrepresentation of a number of facts, notably about the peace treaties between Israel and Jordan and Egypt.

As for the Mandate of 1923, while this endorsed "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people", this was subject to the qualification "it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine". There was no suggestion that being "a homeland for the Jewish people" implied a Jewish majority or the exclusion of Palestinians from the territory involved.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 06:41 PM

"As for the Mandate of 1923, while this endorsed "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people", this was subject to the qualification "it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine". There was no suggestion that being "a homeland for the Jewish people" implied a Jewish majority or the exclusion of Palestinians from the territory involved. "


That was the ORIGINAL Mandate, prior to the removal of 77% of the Mandate territory to the new Arab-only state of Trans-Jordan. Great Britain decided, like in India/Pakistan/Bangladesh, that the different groups each needed their OWN state, and acted accordingly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 07:08 PM

The separation of Palestine from Transjordan in no way implied that "a Jewish homeland" should require a majority Jewish state, or altered the guarantee "that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine".


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 07:15 PM

The seperation of 77% of the Mandate territory, in violation of that mandate, makes sense ONLY if it was to provide for seperate Homelands.

Transjordan was 77% of the Mandate Palestine territory- and settlement there was restricted ONLY TO MOSLEMS.
IS THAT ACCORDING TO THE TEXT YOU QUOTE????

So, if you think the text applies, then the Jewish Homeland should include ALL of TransJordan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 07:20 PM

One of the main Jewish personalities who negotiated the granting of the [Balfour] declaration was Dr. Chaim Weizmann, the leading spokesman for organized Zionism in Britain. During meetings in 1906 between Chaim Weizmann and Balfour, the Unionist leader was impressed by Weizman's personality. Balfour asked Weizmann why Palestine—and Palestine alone—could be the basis for Zionism. "Anything else would be idolatry", Weizmann protested, adding: "Mr. Balfour, supposing I were to offer you Paris instead of London, would you take it?" "But Dr. Weizmann", Balfour retorted, "we have London", to which Weizmann rejoined, "That is true, but we had Jerusalem when London was a marsh."


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 07:34 PM

How old were you, when this was first heard??
Any clues yet?????

Watch Listen Think!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 09:51 PM

"Wouldn't it be a good idea for everyone posting in this thread to decide not to write posts in a way that sets out to insult the people with whom they are arguing? What's the point of doing that? Does it do anything to add strength to the position you are advocating, or to weaken the position which you are criticising"?

Or, another idea...just put your point being made first and then list the insult at the last....to save readers time from separating the personal insult from the point being made. Those not wishing to read the insult, could then abort early?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 10:01 PM

Excellent suggestion Ed, I shall pass it on to my good friend lox.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 10:30 PM

Wait I just noticed that that's his usual format anyway, I don't usually manage to get that far into his posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 11:15 PM

I did the homework, that I promised, but dang, the hateful rhetoric just intensified...I'm so, so sorry for those who are unable to rise higher, and took sides, instead of offering solutions....or allowing a solution to work in them....so very sorry.

...and their music suffers as well, and says nothing...

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 12:46 AM

Did Jordan have a right to the West Bank? I can't say. But you seem to think that conquest confers all the rights necessary in that part of the world.

Not at all mousethief. Jordan had no right whatsoever to the West Bank or to any part of Jerusalem. It invaded and annexed them between 1948 and 1967, in that time they denied the rights of Palestinians (Jew & Arab). In 1967 Israel took the territory back from the Jordanians no rights are being denied that do not affect the security of Israeli citizens, Palestinian Arabs can settle anywhere as can Jews, it is the Palestinian Authority that is keeping people in camps where they have been imprisoned since 1948 - imprisoned first by Jordanians and now by their elected leaders.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 03:16 AM

Interesting to see how this has turned from a discussion on the presentday situation between Palestine and Israel, to a war council of the terrorist state supporters to decide the their way forward, or in this case backward. A sort of 'where to now - Iran maybe'.
Tell me again; who is it wants peace and who are the warmongerers?
"no rights are being denied that do not affect the security of Israeli citizens,"
I think this was one of the claims maid when Germany invaded Poland and Czechoslovakia.
The parallels really are spooky.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: bobad
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 06:55 AM

What's spooky to me is people who are fixated on Nazis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 07:37 AM

Bobad, Now that you bring it up, I don't understand Nazi fixation either. Though I suspect there is a university student somewhere studying it as one of many potential phobia-disorders. One could try a GOOGLE search.

I have seen a few extreme cases that lead to incredibly rash theories (akin to religious beliefs), with an inability to accept counter-evidence, regardless of its validity.

Could it be a left over from wartime days?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 08:51 AM

The Nazis come to mind because of the relatively recent history of the Jewish people - they appear to have provided the Israelis with good role-models.
Attempts to turn this argument on its head will need a bit more evidence than a couple of smears by a couple of pro-Zionist fanatics who appear to want this conflict to go on till the Palestinians are driven out, and the examples already provided will need to be dealt with a little more conviction than unsubstantiated innuendo.
Come on fellers - you can do a little better than that, surely?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 08:54 AM

What Bruce just wrote in that post involves, no doubt unintentionally, a complete misrepresentation of a number of facts...

In light of past practice, makes you think it was UNINTENTIONAL?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 09:49 AM

Personal message for Bobads eyes only. This message is intended for the eyes only of Bobad. If you receive it in error, please do not read, disregard and erase immediately.

Bobad,

"a couple of pro-Zionist fanatics"

Could this be an early sign of the fixation that we spoke earlier? Some signs are there. A rash theory, inability to accept counter-evidence by attempts at scapegoating and smear of those raising them? Yes, I know, It is unfair, too early and un-neighbourly to brand it as such at this early point. But, may be good to keep an eye on it.

Heck, it could merely be signs of cootish, ill-natured and querulous bad manners. Or.... maybe not?

Anyway, the last time I checked the only force that "name calling" words have come are from the air pressure that leaves an offensive mouth....or, possibly keyboard thumping, in this case.

Please dont mention the above speculation, and it is just that, to anyone else...I do not want to be at the other end of an irascible response.

"If your spitting mist to diss, clean out your keyboard soon after you diss". Quote source unknown


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 09:53 AM

Anyway, Bobad, I am off to the beach. Too nice a day not to ride the old ragtop.

I'll catch up in the discussion, which could be as hot as the beach, later.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 12:11 PM

Many of the Israel bashers take an attitude of 'equivalence' which is to say that if two sides employ weapons then they are no different. They then apply terms like 'defence' and 'occupation' as they like to argue a non-equivalence based on a political screed that's been outdated since the fall of Communism.

There was a war for Independence on the part of those who became Israelis. They won. They re-settled their refugees.
The so-called Palestinians lost, and either rejected accomodations, or had accomodations rejected for them. They have not been re-settled. Their situation is horrid, they have every reason to be unhappy, bitter, upset, you name it. But they have to come to terms and I do not think they have yet done that. Not too long ago I heard a man who claimed he was Palestinian on a local talk show in Boston and he wanted to charge the Israelis rent on the property he said was in his family in 1948.

Israel has established the only working democracy in the entire religion. It is multi-ethnic and multi-creed beyond any of its neighbors or their neighbors. All the points on this thread can be debated in a cafe in Haifa. Try doing that in Cairo, Amman, Damascus, or Beirut.

Going back to the recent occurence of the blockade violence, which someone bashing Israel in another thread has labeled an 'atrocity'. The Israeli response was measured. They had to back up their blockade or it wouldn't be a blockade. There was violence on one ship of the Turkish fleet, and it was associated with Turkish extremists. Even then the violence was limited on the part of the Israelis. A similar 'atrocity' was committed by the U.S. Navy when they took out Somali pirates in a measured targeted response to free a captive.

I submit there is an equivalence far better than the rather smug approach of saying that just because one uses weapons one side is no different than another.

As far as the Palestinian need for defense goes, the mere fact that there is a large Palestinian presence on Gaza over a period of 62 years essentially an available target for carnage each and every day of it would argue that violence of the sort of sending missiles into civilian areas of Israel does not constitute a well thought-out 'defense'. The ability to regulate their own police and militias might be a first step. Witness to that would be the somewhat better conditions of the West Bank.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 01:17 PM

Jim and LOX, I think it extremely evident, to the posters on this thread, that your unwavering, irrational bias and hatred of the Israelis, has completely discredited both you, and your posts. You have disregarded historical fact, and tried to color them in a way that has reached into the land of absurdity. I'd take a rest from embarrassing yourselves any further, if you want credibility, in the future, on any other thread.

For your own well-being, I'd re-examine yourselves, and your motives.
This post, is not to cut you down, nor insult you...Happy soul searching, and best of luck. Wish you well.

Guest from Sanity


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: bobad
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 01:20 PM

I second what Guest from Sanity said and with that, bid you farewell.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 03:23 PM

Back from the beach to say, over and out.

The logical have abandoned this thread to instant death some time ago, because it surpassed its "best before" date. Those remaining, must be content to watch the jackels gather, to disembowel any remants.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 03:33 PM

"Those remaining, must be content to watch the jackels gather, to disembowel any remants. "
Nope - that was done a couple of nights ago with a rather magnificent display of triumphalism - but it turned out that the blood you thought you could smell was ketchup
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 04:28 PM

Well done GfS and Bobad, more baseless rubbish.


My record on here is to condemn all the violence.


I post out of sympathy for civilians who are caught between Israeli Agression and Hamas Tyrranny.


You both defend Israeli aggression and you both make derogatoty insinuations about Muslims.


I can find examples of these facts in this and other threads.


The fact that Bobad does thisis such a laconic apathetic way does not define him as devoid of hatred, it merely marks him out as being desensetized and lacking any sense of empathy or compassion.


The UN, Amnesty International, Oxfam and the Red Cross/Crescent among countless other independant and well accredited objective observers all acknowledge the humanitarian crisis in Gaza and the Israeli policy of collective punishment not to mention war crimes.


But Bobad and his imaginary Muslim pals all have a laugh about the situation when the topic comes up.


GfS on the other hand isn't so friendly with his imaginary pixie friends and spends a lot of time arguing with them about who is responsible for the buzzing noise that is making his/her brain hurt and driving him/her to the brink ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 04:31 PM

"What's spooky to me is people who are fixated on Nazis. "

Doesn't Israel celebrate Holocaust day on a yearly basis?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 04:43 PM

Go eat a bagel!


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 05:03 PM

Thank you Robomatic, I love Bagels.

Just remember that Bobad was the one who seemed to find a fixation with Nazis unhealthy, and his 'unconditionally-pro-Israel-no-matter-what' pals all seem to agree that such a fixation is indeed unhealthy.

So considering their clearly voiced concern it struck me that they may feel the same way about Israels collective annual fixation upon Nazi atrocities.

Oh no ... I haven't found yet another example of hypocrisy from Bobad have I ...

... woops ... sorry :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 05:46 PM

Jim: "Nope - that was done a couple of nights ago with a rather magnificent display of triumphalism - ....."

Triumphalism is not the same as convincing yourself of a delusion, and then getting yourself to actually believe it!...Like your sexuality.

But, if you prefer, you can be your own legend in your own wine!

Meanwhile, I know you have a problem with SELF PRESERVATION, and REPRODUCTION, and despise those, who don't share your particular intoxication with fantasy!

Those who protect their families(remember those), and their communities, from random attacks of violence, are not particularly doing so, for 'barbaric' reasons. Those who attack, and disregard the consequences, of doing so, are the true culprits, even to the casualties, they bring on their own people, from those who merely are trying to get the missiles to stop.

Now I'm sure NONE of this is relative to you...but to those who have families and loved ones, rather that sexual partners at whim, completely understand what I am saying...so I find it hard, for you to understand that concept...but then, we're not half dead!

...and you know just what I'm talking about!! You've been lying to yourself for quite a while about such things, and just because we don't buy it, it puts you in desperate urgency to dismiss the truth, or, you might have to address 'other' issues, you'd have to admit, and that terrifies you!

...and no, I'm not hostile towards you, but rather pity the mind that hypnotizes itself, into living out a delusion.

You have 'won' nothing. We are leaving you, disgusted and almost in mourning....as seeing a pathetic human being, wallowing in his own vomit!

No insult intended...just thought you'd like to know.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 06:26 PM

The pills Gfs, the pills
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 09:48 PM

Jim: "The pills Gfs, the pills
Jim Carroll"

My God, My God!!

GfS

...and I'm not even Jewish!


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 12:16 AM

Is the West Bank part of Israel, or not?

If it is, why aren't the Palestinians there Israeli citizens?

If it isn't, by what right do they perform de facto annexations by making settlements?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 04:16 AM

Mouse, ..This is the short, easy version.....Of the original(Biblical times), and land granted to Israel, in 1948, the West Bank was part of Israel.

Because many of the Palestinians at that time, were not Jewish, there were both Muslim and Christian Palestinians. I'm sure you can remember a few years back, when those two factions were warring.

As to your last question, rather than being completely displaced, both Israel and the 'resident' Palestinians agreed to settlements. (Details are all over the place).

When the Israelis gave into a compromise, (Arafat), they were given an area called the West Bank. The problem with the West Bank,(for those who have not traveled there), it is 'high ground', and strategically not good for Israel, because attacks were launched from there...along with missiles, so they were displaced from there, after several wars, and 'peace treaties',which were broken by the Palestinians(PLO)...oh, repeatedly broken by the Palestinians. (PLO, Hezbollah, Hamas..and factions thereof.)

Israel did not launch attacks first, but had incursions in, to stop the raids, snipers, missiles, etc

They never 'just invaded' as a 'land acquisition'...or to fuck with them, unless to stop them killing or trying to kill Israeli citizens.

The history is well documented...'Google it'

When the Palestinians got driven back, they pissed and moaned about all the 'atrocities'..that would never had happened, if they didn't attack first.

It seems that every time Israel compromises, gives them a territory, they,(Palestinians), set up, and organize to attack...Supplied, by Iran, Syria, sometimes Jordan(not so much now), Egypt,(earlier on), Iraq(not as much as of present...among others.

Ok, we're done with the easy one. Dates and wars and treaties can all be found online..but basically its the same shit over and over.

Just remember back, how many times they've been at it.

OK, See Ya'!
GfS

(That was the very abridged version)


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 08:14 AM

"Now I'm sure NONE of this is relative to you...but to those who have families and loved ones, rather that sexual partners at whim,"
Just re-read your posting - and I wonder would you mind explaining it - completely lost on me unless it is a homophobic attack on someone who isn't either gay or sexually indiscriminate - which is par for the course in the contexts of your other postings.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch.
A group of Irish artists, musicians etc. have announced that they are boycotting Israel and will not be acceting any bookings there until it cleans up its act regarding its human rights record.
This, and the move to get Dunne's Stores to boycott goods from Israel is a step in the direction of placing Israel where it belongs - next to Apartheid South Africa as an oppresive State.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 08:20 AM

Some of us have been personally boycotting Israeli goods since the 1970s. Probably does no good at all, but makes me feel better.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Roberto
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 09:46 AM

Which other Countries are you merry boycotters presently boycotting?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 11:07 AM

All the ones that I would otherwise boycott already have UN sanctions against them.

Israels has avoided UN sanctions for its crimes for one reason and one only, and that is that the USA has vetoed them.

Consequently, it is up to those who wish to boycott them voluntarily to do so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Roberto
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 11:11 AM

That is, you boycott only Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 11:18 AM

No, I also try to avoid American products too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 11:42 AM

Roberto.


No.


I don't boycott only Israel.


You put words in my mouth.


I guess if you have no opinion, argument or facts to share then that is a way to pass the time, but as a political tool it weakens your credibility.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Roberto
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 11:52 AM

Dear Lox, the fact is you boycott only Israel, the other words in your post are embellishments that don't change the situation. No words put in your mouth, just the observation of a fact. Take care of your credibility, don't get worried about mine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 12:09 PM

Roberto.

Before you conclude that I "only" boycott Israel, you first have to establish that I boycott Israel at all.

Secondly, I have answered your assertion that I only boycott Israel by saying NO!

So for you to claim that you have a better Idea of who I do and don't boycott is not only arrogance, it is a LIE.

Now - why don't you fuck off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Roberto
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 12:27 PM

Israel haters are a large group in the Western Countries. A trait most of them have in common, as an international community, is they want to be free to show all their hatred, exaggerate their claims etc, but if you challenge their assertions and initiatives, they deny, get all huffy, feel offended. The culture of complaint. They don't actually have the courage of their convictions. R


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 12:46 PM

Roberto, You couldn't have said it better. I've been dealing with some 'Israel haters' on here, as you may have seen. I wonder about all those 'boycotting' Israel, and America...(which is probably a crock of shit). I'm sure they get their goods from China, which, of course, has a sterling reputation for 'human rights'!

They are just trying TOO hard to be 'tragically hip'.....but they're only putting on a show, for here....As you have pointed out, they are hypocrites, trying to validate their hate. What they really are, is non-thinking bigoted haters of people, rather than upright supporters of people who defend their land and innocent citizens.....
..but because they're Jewish, they don't count!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 12:54 PM

Why do you hate the Irish Roberto?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 01:00 PM

WHICH Irish???

Nemedians, Fomorians, Fir Bolgs, Tuatha Dé Danann , Milesians, Normans, Flemish, Welsh, Picts, Bretons, Gauls or Anglo-Saxons?

Specify the "real" inhabitants, please.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 01:02 PM

Just to clarify.

Roberto accuses me of boycotting Israel exclusively.

I point out that I don't Boycott Israel exclusively.

I also point out that I have never stated anywhere that I boycott Israel at all.

I will add (because he is clearly too thick to work that part out for himself) that I haven't boycotted Israel.

But Roberto manages to construe this as some kind of indication that I hate Israel.


So lets run through that again ...

If you boycott Israel = it follows that you hate Israel.

If you don't boycott Israel = it follows that you hate Israel.


Roberto - I think you need to pull your dick out of your ear because you're pissing out of your mouth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 01:07 PM

Good question BB ...

Interesting though ... I could if I wanted to argue that there is a conspiracy here aginst the Irish as there seems to be a large crowd of unconditional-IDF-supporters doing their best to shut us up, despite us not knowing each other and despite us having differing views.

What do we have in common?

It must be that we're Irish.

So BB, Roberto et al ... what have you got against the Irish?

Why do you hate us?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 01:08 PM

Good question BB ...

Interesting though ... I could if I wanted to argue that there is a conspiracy here aginst the Irish as there seems to be a large crowd of unconditional-IDF-supporters doing their best to shut me and Jim Carroll up, despite us not knowing each other and despite us having differing views.

What do we have in common?

It MUST be that we're Irish.

So BB, Roberto et al ... what have you all got against the Irish?

Why do you hate us?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 01:13 PM

I love the Irish.

I just dislike people who make statements about how other countries should act without bothering to look at the history behind that country. Sort of like ME saying that one side in Ireland (Protestant/Catholic) is right WITHOUT bothering to find out the history there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 01:29 PM

Well BB,

Being Irish, I have a deep dislike of people who say that they are entitled to act just as they choose because of their perception of the history of their country.


Murder is murder and the Irish are sick to death of it.

What is more, we know exactly how much denial, dishonesty, self righteousness and plain stubborn refusal to face the truth exists in the defence of murder.

We have had enough of mealy mouthed apologists making excuses for murder.

And we recognize those things when they occur all round the world whether they come from the mouths of the Loathsome Khaled Meshaal or from the Disgusting Binyamin Netanyahu - both in my view liars and hypocrites.

We have a phrase - "you can't kid a kidder"

Meaning 'don't bother with the excuses, not only have I heard them all, I've probably used a few myself'.


There is one big similarity between the Israel/Palestine situation and the Northern Irish situation.

It is that the politicians on both sides exploit and feed the paranoia of the people because it serves them well for whatever reason to perpetuate these problems.


If you were able to think about this stuff impartially you might be able to take a fair look at people like Ariel Sharon and see them for who they really are - murderous thugs.


Anyway - let me return to my application of your approach ...

... huh - Irish haters never have the courage of their convictions - they say they are your friends one minute but under the surface they harbour a bubblng hatred of an ancient culture that has a right to be ... blah .. blah .. blah ...

.. cue Bobad sneering down his nose with a comment about "swamps" and maybe I'm not so far off the mark!


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 01:58 PM

I warned you about "the Jackals"...and some of you did not pay attention... and are getting real close to being disembowled.



Let me see, if I figgured out the conversation:

If Isreal likers/lovers/keeners (the ones that prefer bagels to Hummus) are not too keen on the Irish (aka haters)...after all, some Irish were known to be alter boys..., should Uz not come to a compromise and maybe boycott the Pope?

This guy could be the greatest blah .. blah .. blah perveyor. He is an easy target, since what he sells/says seems to be in rather low demand these days...(and he now even seems to have gotten on shaky ground with Mel Gibsons father).


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 02:11 PM

Now don't go boycottin the Americans. They don't really make anything anymore anyway, except nearly obsolete cars. The Chinese make most of their stuff for 'em, and it's getting hard to make it all for a dollar. You can boycott the Canadians, because you really wouldnt miss the hockey sticks and Maple syrup in Ireland anyway?

If'in you still want to boycott Israel's products (or those who support them, this site gives you a head start....but beware of the Islamic stuff that might be scattered around the site, if you are weary of anything not Christian.

Boycott 'r Us site

On the other hand, if you want to boycott Hammas, your on your own, I am not sure what they make, except people "prickly" (and sometimes without the ly) on the Mudcat BS site.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 02:13 PM

MY approach??


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 02:19 PM

""They are just trying TOO hard to be 'tragically hip'.....but they're only putting on a show, for here....As you have pointed out, they are hypocrites, trying to validate their hate. What they really are, is non-thinking bigoted haters of people, rather than upright supporters of people who defend their land and innocent citizens.....
..but because they're Jewish, they don't count!
""

And what incentives does the all too efficient Israeli PR machine give to twerps like you, to disseminate that utter garbage?

Israel's ruling administration has a very long record of violently disproportionate response to even the most minor provocation. It is without doubt more dangerous than all the terrorist organisations put together. It is the most likely cause of the next major conflagration, not if, but when the Middle East erupts into all out war.

Apologists for the actions of the regime can bleat till the cows come home about victimisation, demonisation, etc. but the bottom line is that the "Persecuted Jew" is a very tired argument if you are seeing half a nation devastated in response to a few unaimed two bob rockets.

If your neighbour throws a snowball at you, just try to pesuade the judge that hitting him with a baseball bat was a reasonable response.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 02:21 PM

"And what incentives does the all too efficient Israeli PR machine give to twerps like you, to disseminate that utter garbage?"

Lollipops!


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 02:43 PM

Well, it's just one big happy family!! So, in light of that, here is a song, performed by Irish friend, Lisa Kelly..from St. Patrick's Breastplate,(Irish Catholic), and in the video covers both Jews and Christians!..So, EVERYONE SHOULD get something wonderful out of it!!!!

Something for everyone.........I think!

Now what????

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 03:30 PM

I like and support Lollipops, but on hot Mudcat days...which could be hotter in the Middle East, I prefer Popcycles.

Or, not to offend the sensitive folk at Mudcat, the PC generic or " healthy alternative version", of course).


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 03:37 PM

I am ancestrally, half RC Irish. Does that mean I am half-hated?

The other ancestral half is French....does that add something to the Irish hate, or take from it (he said, not intending to pinpoint the UK and USA)?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 03:38 PM

BTW, Popcycles are the older bikes your grandpa drove.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 03:40 PM

Could those people who are hiding behind the accusatioion of 'racism' please show where anybody on this or any thread has attacked Israel for being Jewish - no, I thought not. There has been very little racism here, and that which has appeared has been by the pro-Israel faction. Do you people hate the Jews so much that you would hide behind their suffering and persecution to win an argument?
As far as the boycott is concerned, I would consider any appeal to boycott any country, commercial company or organisation and weigh up its merits against my own concience. There are many causes that need support, but you can't choose them all so you pick those who have gone beyond the pale and which resonate the most with you.
So I will support any action against Israel, because they have certainly overstepped the bounds of decency regarding treatment of its fellow-humans, and she will join Turkey, for its human rights abuses, Shell Petrol for it's support of paramilitaries who murder South American farmers in pursuit of oil, Esso Petrol for similar offences in Nigeria and Barclays Bank for its active support of Apartheid in South Africa (proud to say I never once bought South African goods while the racist regime was in place, and now that it isn't, it feels strange to buy their goods). As Silas suggests, it may not achieve anything great, but it does keep your hands clean and it helps draw attention to the atrocities - and it makes you feel you are standing up to be counted.
Roberto: can I assume that I am not going to get an answer to my question regarding whether the Jewish people who are opposed to Israel's behaviour are anti-Semitic?
GfS: Likewise, I assume I am not going to get an answer to your allusions to my sexuality - pity; it would help to display your homophobia once again and your disturbing obsession with other people's sexuality; usually a good indication of someone very unsure of their own. "Cluck-cluck-cluck" - as the chicken said.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 03:45 PM

If the Israeli-Palestinian issue can't be civilly debated or theoretically resolved on music website, what chance does it have of being resolved in the heated atmosphere....where peoples memories go back thousands of years...in the Middle East?

Answer, zero.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 03:48 PM

"Do you people hate the Jews so much that you would hide behind their suffering and persecution to win an argument?"

I don't know Jim, there is certainly a patturn forming. You live in Ireland and Lox is Irish, is there an anti-Gaelic thing going on here? Is everyone who supports Israel secretly anti-Irish? It's all very suspect in my humble! Especially as I'm almost Irish too... Hmm. Otherwise GfS I'd rather hear the call to Prayer fromMecca than any amount of awful processed "Christian" music!


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 03:50 PM

I suspect the term "sexuality" may not exist in many Middle East discussions...at least in general public. You may possibly get stoned (not the nice version) for doing that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 04:21 PM

"MY approach?? "

Well BB - I have read posts of yours in the past which don't so much insinuate as clearly imply that if you condemn the Israeli Government the only possible reason is that you hate Jews.

That is certainly Bobads approach, and now it would appear to be robertos approach.


Though in Robertos case, he says "you are an israeli hater because you are x" but then when it turns out that you are not in fact "x" at all, he states that you are an Israeli hater because you are not "x".

In other words, it is true because he says it is true.


The fact is, that of all of those debating here, those who condemn Israeli aggression also condemn Palestinian Aggression, with the POSSIBLE exception of one, but only if you accept the rationale of those who accuse him of sympathizing with Palestinian Agression.

In other words, those on this website who condemn Israeli aggression, do so from a non partisan and impartial standpoint.

Those who support Israeli agression accuse those who condemn it of being Israel Haters.

You would like to condemn Hamas and exonerate thugs like Sharon.

Not very impartial ... very partisan.

Equally, all those who condemn Israeli agression refer not to pro-palestinian sources, not to pro israeli sources, but to independant and accredited sources.

Those who support Israeli agression refer frequently to pro israeli sources, and if the impartiality of these is questioned, their response is to say that the source is only questioned because it is Jewish.

In other words, if the impartiality a pro Israeli source is questioned it can only be because the questioner is a bigot.

Thus our pro Israeli contributors 'immunize' their own sources from criticism.

It is becoming increasingly clear to me that there is a small group of contributors here who see the world as being divided between Jews and Jew haters.

If you criticize Israel, you are a Jew hater.

If you have sympathy for Palestinians you are a Jew hater.


This small group of contributors is responsible for the reams and reams of words that have been puked up here.

Why?

Because on any other subject, we are able to exchange views, evolve and learn.

On this subject, the unconditionally-pro-Israel group will not budge. They will not consider that the Israeli Government and the IDF might be doing it wrong.

They will see any suggestion of that nature as being inspired by a hatred of Jews.

In Bobads case, he just has a low opinion of Moslems as has been shown clearly by his comments in another thread, and I've forgotten who it was who tried sharing a little joke with him about those bungling palestinians killing themselves with their rockets.

Oh very witty.

Such comments make me sick.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 04:57 PM

"I suspect the term "sexuality" may not exist in many Middle East discussions...at least in general public. You may possibly get stoned (not the nice version) for doing that."
Interesting to see the racists crawling out of their worm-holes - even if their targets are Semites. At least it points the finger in the right direction.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 05:23 PM

Jimmy, I guess you weren't here, when I first told you that homosexuality brought a death penalty, under Sharia law. I figured you'd say something, about such 'wonderful' tolerance, but you didn't. Now you're asking "Why" I'm bringing it up now??....My FIRST post to you had it!....JEEZ! Your a bit slow here....BUT, at least you're changing your tone, and at least SAYING you 'love'(well sorta), all these different groups(even though when the topic comes up, on a thread, you sure sound different)!..Like I asked you,(a long time ago), "Are you only as good, as the last person you talk to?" ....That got by ya', too. But, anyway, the hateful rhetoric has slowed down......

(Maybe it was that link, eh?)

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 05:34 PM

Crows Feet: "Otherwise GfS I'd rather hear the call to Prayer fromMecca than any amount of awful processed "Christian" music!"

Was that 'Christian'? It's just from an Irish musical called 'Saint Patrick's Breastplate'. In the story line, of the play, these people are being hunted by soldiers wishing to kill them, for their beliefs. They come to a clearing in the woods, and know, if they enter into the clearing, that they will be seen, and therefore killed...SO, they gather around, and 'Shape Shift', into Deer, and sing that song, for protection. ..and, as the pursuers move through them, looking to kill them, all they see are the Deer, but cannot hear their song, nor see them......sorta like here, huh?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 05:41 PM

"homosexuality brought a death penalty, under Sharia law."
Which has exactly what to do with this discussion?
Nobody is defending sharia law - but you crowd of sickos are defending Israeli brutality and are now using racism to defend it, unless of course your suggesting that chemical weapons, the slaughter of civilians, including women and children is a mission to rid the world of religious intolerance - if so, I'd watch your back - crawl back... into your redneck hole; you're getting more inarticulate by the minute.
Jim Carrol


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 08:11 PM

Some folks try to understand each others perspective. Other folks just take a firm stand and blast insults at at others, if their position does not seem to be reinforced.

Not only does this show imature logic, it is not particularily productive or interesting in a conversation, especially a discussion that has a history of polarizing folks.

I normally avoid those types of people and discussions....because there is little possibility of any constuctive discussion resulting. Inb those cases, like many Mudcatters, I avoid these pointless/rude discussion, or sometimes prefer to inject humour to cool heads down, rather than getting involved in a pointless "no win pissing match".

Folks on both sides just get frustrated and throw insults at each other (and even at spectators, whom they see as not seeming to be on their side of the issue). I suspect if you objectively reviewed your posts, you know what catagory you would fall under.

To be objective in this Middle East conflict, one would have to look at the reasoning of both parties, without making judgements on whether their logic and actions are reasonable to you or not. Armed with that objective understanding, one could then possibly come closer to make a judgement on, not who is right or wrong, but on how these folks could get out of this mess...that does not serve the interests of the civilian population of either side.

I doubt that this thread will be read by either faction, So, what's the purpose in throwing hurtful insults around. Do you actually feel it makes your case or opinion seem more valid, or changes the views of your perceived foe? Unlikely.

I suggest you put your talented minds to better use.

But, if you wish...contine to throw your vile comments, and underwear at each other if you wish, even though that this has zero value at all to anyone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 08:34 PM

"To be objective in this Middle East conflict, one would have to look at the reasoning of both parties, without making judgments on whether their logic and actions are reasonable to you or not. Armed with that objective understanding, one could then possibly come closer to make a judgment on, not who is right or wrong, but on how these folks could get out of this mess"

As I said before, the only 'logical solution' I was able to stumble over decades ago, was 'a couple of hundred megatons, aimed at that big rock'... but I admit that would not be much 'help' for any of the current participants over there - just 'make the problem go away for the rest of us' - I really do not find this a 'humane solution' however ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 01:19 AM

Jim, Ah, the nastiness is rearing its head, again.....*sigh*...oh well, at least the 'haters' have been flushed out!
What is that??...Peace??....Inner peace??...Love??....Actually, you have nothing to say, worth a hill of beans!

Sweet Dreams, I gotta gig to do....See ya'!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 02:01 AM

Sanity has a gig to do? Sanity is a musician?
Hmmmm. Don't ya wish ya knew who Sanity really is?
I thought he/she was just a right-wing political wonk.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 02:28 AM

Don't ya wish ya knew who Sanity really is?

Most emphatically no.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 09:39 AM

Assuming I did know, why would I care?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 10:36 AM

"But, if you wish...contine to throw your vile comments, and underwear at each other if you wish, even though that this has zero value at all to anyone. ""
This gets a little tiresome. Enough specific points on Israel's behaviour have been put to fill a library.
Responses like this can only be regarded as replacements for rational argument - as are accusations of anti-Semitism
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 02:05 PM

Apposite to the discussion so far


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 02:49 PM

"This gets a little tiresome"

A good point you make.

So, what are you going to do about it, yourself, as you have been a major player in the tiresome content?

Choices could include adding something constructive, (outside rude comments, name calling, and one sided perspectives, that is) that would advance the discussion (though, I streatch this definition, quite a bit).

That is if you have a broader perspective to add?

If not, what's the point, and what is your real purpose in posting such stuff?

I suspect you are a very busy guy, and there are many venues where you could make more of an impact promoting your theories and historic accounts to solve these issues, rather than posting on this mundane thread, which seems to have a limited audience for your stuff?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 04:52 PM

"Choices could include adding something constructive,"
This argument has not gone your way - you have failed to convince the majority of us that piracy, mass murder , chemical bombing, seizure of land and property, and the general contempt for the Palestinian people is acceptable, now you appear to be shouting 'foul' - well tough shit.
It is you and your handful of right-wing friendsa who have poured abuse on those who opposed you and you have moved from denying that atrocities never took place to the statement that the Palestinians shouldn't be in Gaza anyway because it interferes in some way with some ancient claim to a 'Promised Land' - how constructive is that?.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 05:05 PM

Sorry, Jimbo, I haven't taken any side or stated a position.
Must have mistaken me for one of your straw enemies.

Could it be that you are shootin' blanks again. Time to think and reload. Now let's try it again....the word "constructive" should not be seen or taken as an angry, confrontative word ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 10:42 PM

Joe: "Sanity has a gig to do? Sanity is a musician?
Hmmmm. Don't ya wish ya knew who Sanity really is?
I thought he/she was just a right-wing political wonk."

Nope, not a right wing wonk......LONG time musician....and I kick ass, too!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Roberto
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 03:09 AM

Jim often makes references to the political Right wing and the Left wing when discussing on Israel/Palestine. I can't see what the support for the Palestinian Cause has to do with the Left. As I've said before, I support the Two-State solution. That is, I think it is fair and necessary that the Palestinians build their own state (when they decide this is the priority, and not destroying Israel) and that Israel withdraws from some of the land it occupies now, as a state and through colonies, and that both, Israel and the new state of Palestine, subscribe a Peace Treaty, with mutual recognition. I support a political and statual future for the Palestinians, and hope they remove the main obstacles in order to achieve this result, the external obstacles and the internal (Hamas etc). That said, I can't see what a society and its political expressions, especially in Gaza, that deny freedom of speech and press, human and civil rights, equality between men and women, separation between religion and politics has to do with the Left.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 06:17 AM

In fact Roberto, you have inadvertantly stumbled upon the point.

The left has nothing to do with the Israel/Palestine conflict at all.

The conflict is being dictated by Extreme Israeli right wingers and extreme Islamist right wingers.

The call for a political solution is not an example of left wing politics, but of moderate/centrist politics.

If the left wing had any say in either Israel or in Gaza then the situation might be a whole lot more peaceful.

Now how do I know that BB, Teribus, Bobad etc etc are all going to step in to blame the left for the conflict?

Note roberto that all those on here who support Israei violence are also very vocal in their support of right wing politics in the UK and USA.

They illustrate the reality beautifully.

But let me invite you to keep an eye out for some of the pro BNP posts on here.

Note the style of argument and then compare it to Bobads style.

Rhetorical questions, insinuations, lies and the endless repetition of opinion masquerading as fact despite having been discredited on numerous occasions, the use of partisan sources and contempt for the concept of academic impartiality.

This issue is all about the right wing.


And then of course there's the tactic that you use roberto of describing people as Israel haters as a convenient way of pigeon holing arguments that you don't have the wit to confront in any other way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 06:25 AM

"and I kick ass, too!"
Absolutely beautiful - keep it coming.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 12:42 PM

I can't see what a society and its political expressions... that deny freedom of speech and press, human and civil rights, equality between men and women, separation between religion and politics has to do with the Left.

The left??? Sounds like the U.S. christian[sic] fundagelical right wing to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 06:57 PM

Jim,: ""and I kick ass, too!"
Absolutely beautiful - keep it coming."

I'll be posting some music..., you tell me!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 09:38 PM

A group of Irish artists, musicians etc. have announced that they are boycotting Israel and will not be acceting any bookings there until it cleans up its act regarding its human rights record.
This, and the move to get Dunne's Stores to boycott goods from Israel is a step in the direction of placing Israel where it belongs - next to Apartheid South Africa as an oppresive State


This is sad and ironic as hell when one knows the history of Irish American support for the Jewish partisans working to establish an Independent state against the incipient destruction that was being prepared for them by their Arab neighbors. It certainly outweighs any current misdirection on the part of certain iditos of the present day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 09:48 PM

Well what the Irish do and what Irish Americans do aren't really connected.

But it goes to show what a bad PR game Israel has played in losing the sympathy and support of many countries worldwide who would otherwise have been a lot more supportive.

The reason they have lost this support is down to their treatment of palestinians in recent years.

When your friend is a bully, you have to tell him and if he won't change, you have to make it clear that he risks losing your friendship.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 09:50 PM

SHHHHHhhhh, Don't tell anyone, but the Irish are descendants of Israel(ites)!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 10:02 PM

While GfS is descended from the inhabitants of a cuckoo clock.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 02:42 AM

Brain-LOX: "While GfS is descended from the inhabitants of a cuckoo clock."

Shit, man, you're stretching on that one!!....Now, I guess I'm mortally wounded!.....I guess.....(rolls eyes, and sighs)

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 03:19 AM

"This is sad and ironic as hell when one knows the history of Irish American support for the Jewish partisans"
This assumes that the atrocities committed by the bunch of thugs running Israel today is in any way comparable with the heroism of the Jewish partisans. They have done more for anti-Semitism in the last few years than any racists could possibly have achieved in centuries
"inhabitants of a cuckoo clock."
Careful Lox - he kicks ass (or something to do with ass!)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 11:24 AM

Thank you, Jim Carroll, for confirming one of my arguments here or at the other bash Israel thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 12:02 PM

Jim, The sky is blue here.....

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 12:12 PM

"Thank you, Jim Carroll, for confirming one of my arguments here or at the other bash Israel thread. "
You mean that you didn't know the the people running Israel today were a bunch of thugs.
Not bashing Israel - just the atrocities they have committed which you continue to refuse to acknowledge.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 12:37 PM

'Israel bashing'
There is something disgustingly hypocritical about somebody excusing the bad behavior of any people - in this case war crimes against civilians, on the basis of "how dare you criticise them; they're black, jewish, Latin American, whatever - not just hypocritical, but dangerous since terrorism and atrocities are not confined to one single race, or colour or religion and come in all shapes and sizes.
I invite you, or anybody, as I did Bruce and Roberto (and was met with a dishonest silence from both) - if you can show any example of racism on this or the other 'Israel bashing' thread, please do so - or do you believe any one religion or nationality to be above criticism.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 01:30 PM

Ah, Jim, Jim, Jim. While I have never called anybody an Anti-Semite, I have listed on the 'Cat, a number of criteria which would, in whole or part, tend to cause others to think Anti-Semitism was in play here. They was not just my thoughts, but those from the ADL among some other groups. I posted them for your (everybody's) edification and, perhaps, self awareness.

A couple of folks, notably you, chose to deny that possibility that Anti-Semitism might be a factor in some posts or arguments. That's okay. But today, in the context of this thread, you have admitted that Anti-Semitism plays a part in the feelings of some people towards Israel. We may disagree as to why that is...but it is.

Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 02:35 PM

"you have admitted that Anti-Semitism plays a part in the feelings of some people towards Israel"

John.

You are a clever clogs aren't you.

Really?!!!!

Anti-semitism plays a part in some peoples perceptions of Israel?

No Shit Sherlock!!!


Don't be insincere John.


Your position is not that some Israel critics are anti semites.

Your position on this forum is to insinuate that critics of the Israeli government on this forum are motivated by antisemitism.


I remember your list of criteria and it was very ambiguous, politicized and subjective to your personal view.


I will give you a definiton of antisemitic that bears fair scrutiny in the 21st century.

An anti-semite, regardless of the origins of the word semite, can be described as a person who discriminates against Jews on the basis of the fact that they are Jews.

It is very simple.

I have heard enough mealy mouthed 'proofs' from Moslems, Jews, the Irish etc etc designed to uncover the 'real' racists, islamophobes and anti-semites to turn my stomach.

There is enough actual descrimination on the grounds of race and religion to keep us occupied for the rest of our lives.


So you can keep your 'criteria', it means nothing to me and it serves no useful purpose except to give you a sense of self granted authourity as a self appointed judge of who is or isn't an anti-semite.

Now grow up and learn to express a viewpoint, counter an argument and provide impartial evidence as source material and stop with the mealy mouthed rhetorical questions, insinuations and general self congratulating, self righteous, self deceiving crap.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 02:56 PM

For a start, the term 'Israel bashing' brings with it an implication that the Israeli people have been singled out because of what they are rather than what they or their government have done.
Criticisms of Israeli behaviour throughout this thread have been specific and neither you nor your fellow Israeli apologists have answered them apart from the suggestion that history gives them the right to behave towards the Palestinians the way they do.
I suspect that many people are in the same position I am when it comes to criticising Israel - bloody uncomfortable.
I was brought up in an anti-facist household, a fact which has coloured my attitude to all races and creeds.
As a practicing Catholic, my father was so appalled at the rise of fascism in the thirties that he went off to fight in Spain. He came home having spent 6 months in hospital and 18 months in a Spanish prison (run by Italian Fascists), to find he had been excommunicated from his church and possessing a police record as a 'premature anti-fascist - the parlance of that time.
His family were militantly involved in the opposition to the British fascist Mosely; my grandmother was arrested for throwing a stone at him during one of his anti-Semitic rants.
I have spent a lifetime opposing fascism in organisations like the anti-fascist League and the Anti-Apartheid movement, so it comes as deeply insulting when people who have not the courage to back up their insults and hide behind cowardly silence, call me an anti-Semite.
It came as extremely difficult for people like me to criticise what is being done by the Israelis to Palestinian civilians - however they - or you dress it, they are committing war crimes not unsimilar to those committed against the Jewish people We kept our mouths firmly shut for a long time until we could stay silen no longer - for me, the crunch came with the Shatila and Sabra massacres; it was then I found it difficult to distinguish between the Israelis and the former persecutors of the Jewish people.
You may not have accused me directly of anti-Semitism, but your 'Israeli bashers' is a different side of the same coin.
If you have ANY evidence of anti-Semitism o these threads, then please produce it; otherwise, I suggest that your argument would be far better served by confining yourself to the accusations made against Israel
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 04:42 PM

"I remember your list of criteria and it was very ambiguous, politicized and subjective to your personal view."

Lox, I have a working copy of what I posted. Whatever else you might think it is, it certainly is not ambiguous.

I don't like to repeat my self, but I will summarize my conclusions from the earlier post:

***Blaming only Israel for the plight of Palestineans.
***Claiming Israel is not a democratic country.
***Denying the historic attachment of Jews to Israel.
***Denying that Diaspora Jews are truly Jews.
***Claiming that the United nations had no right to create a Jewish State, while not denying the the right to create other countries from the ashes of WWI and the end of colonialism.
***Claiming Israel has forfeited the right to exist as a Jewish nation.
***Supporting a single state solution which would ultimately--if not quickly--end the uniqueness of Israel.

Each of those conclusions have an analog posted at Mudcat which caused me to post my original. After I posted that post, I found other examples on the web. From european-forum-on-antisemitism.org I found one other criterion that I had missed from among the things said at Mudcat:

***"Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis."

While what I wrote does reflect my view, most is not original with me (though some I came up with independently), nor is it subjective, as I showed examples and comparisons in the body of the post. Every conclusion I reached is based on things that have been written this spring and summer (and even years ago) at the Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 04:54 PM

Your list appears to me to be no more than a random selection of your or somebody elses personal views - none of them, in my personal view, merit in any way the charge of anti- Semitism, though some of them might be construed as anti-Israeli as Israel stands at the present time.
As Lox put it,
"very ambiguous, politicized and subjective to your personal view."
As far as "Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis." - that is the way I view the behaviour of Israel towards the Palestinians, and I have laid out my reasons numerous times on these threads - tell me where it is not true instead of waving a set of privately arrived at rules under our noses.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 04:56 PM

"***Claiming that the United nations had no right to create a Jewish State, while not denying the the right to create other countries from the ashes of WWI and the end of colonialism."

This sentence more accurately stated:

***Claiming that the League of Nations and the United nations had no right to create a Jewish State, while not denying their right to create other countries from the ashes of their respective wars, and the end of Colonialism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 05:19 PM

The 4 following areas of debate are more complex than just Anti-Semitic vs Non-Anti-Semitic.


1. ***Claiming Israel is not a democratic country.

Democracy in the west is a hotly debated issue and defining it is an issue that has never succesfully been resolved in any contry in the world.

So why should Israel be any different?


2. ***Denying the historic attachment of Jews to Israel.

Well if you mean by that a simple denial that there is any connection between Jews and the land of Israel/Palestine and the city if Jerusalem etc then you are right.

It would be hard to explain such a flat denial by any other motivation.

But if you are referring to the hotly contested political issue of land rights disputes between european settlers and palestinians and the oft used argument that those settlers have a greater right to land than those who are displaced by settlements then you are talking about yet another ambiguous area of debate.


These two topics are often deliberately confused on this forum.

3. ***Supporting a single state solution which would ultimately--if not quickly--end the uniqueness of Israel.

Now this is very subjective.

You clearly don't support a single state solution. I think I probably agree with you.

However, the key word in both phrases "single state solution" and "two state solution" is "SOLUTION"

As long as the solution in Israel/Palestine is a peaceful one then I think that is the important thing about it.

If the only obstacle to a peaceful solution is some perceived notion of unique identity then I find that obstacle to be very suspect indeed, if not racist by nature itself.

Analogy - Britian losing its identity by joining the european union.

Synopsis - utter rubbish.

4. ***"Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis."


This is not evidence of anti semitism.

Comparing the Israel/Palestine conflict to Nazism is grossly disproportionate, but not anti-semitic.

The holocaust was a crime which still resonates today and which 99% of people never wish to see again.

For most people, the word Nazism stands as the exact opposite of words like "humanity" and "compassion".

Many people, myself included, see the IDF and the Israeli government as lacking compassion and humanity in Gaza - that is how the word is used.

I would remind you of the Speech by Gerald Kaufmann, Jewish MP in Britain, friend of Golda Meyer and associate of Ben Gurion, in which he compared the Israeli Blockade of Gaza with the Warsaw Ghetto in Poland in WWII.

He compared the attitude of the Israeli Government during last january's assault on Gaza with Nazi attitudes.

I don't think you could describe him as an anti-semite.


-------

None of the above "criteria" indicate discrimination against Jews.

In one case, in my view, on the issue of Nazi comparisons, they indicate a measure of exaggeration, arguably tactless and insensitive given the context.

However, it is often Israeli right wingers who bring up the Nazis and Anti-semitism as a deliberate red herring in discussions of this nature and once in the discussion, interpretations of its meaning can and do become hotly contested.

And it is important not to apply double standards - either Nazism and anti semitism are legitimate territory or they aren't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 09:41 PM

Lox, you make good sense in much of your last post. Congrats in progressing the debate beyond one sided perspectives.


However, I feel you oversimplified one issue you raise.

"If the only obstacle to a peaceful solution is...."some perceived notion of unique identity then I find that obstacle to be very suspect indeed, if not racist by nature itself.

Analogy - Britian losing its identity by joining the european union."

I suspect you know that this area is much more complex and than that which you raise, including the one example you put forward to equate.(I note you use "if", and I suspect that you know that this does not represent the full issue, as the other part of the post would lead me to believe you would have a broader understanding than that).


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 09:59 PM

""***Blaming only Israel for the plight of Palestineans.""

You don't even have the terms of reference sorted out.

Correctly stated, what we have been doing is blaming the current government of Israel for certain specific acts of violence and terrorism against Palestinians in Gaza.

Not even close to what you claim, and in addition, I believe that most of us here do not accept the premise that "Israeli", and "Jewish" are synonyms.

If they are not, then blaming "Israel", or the "Israeli" government cannot be described as anti semitism.

Incidentally, I believe those Palestinians are also Semites, are they not?

In which case my friend, you are as anti Semitic as those you accuse.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 10:43 PM

"Incidentally, I believe those Palestinians are also Semites, are they not?

"In which case my friend, you are as anti Semitic as those you accuse.

"Don T."

That dog don't hunt, Don. You know that 'Anti-Semite" has specifically meant anti-Jewish for near 150 years. We have discussed that numerous times on Mudcat. You don't get to change the definition. I can only assume that you have your own agenda in those two statements above. They do you no credit, my friend.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 01:20 AM

Semite

Dictionary: Sem·ite   (sĕm'īt') pronunciation

n.

   1. A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians.
   2. A Jew.
   3. Bible. A descendant of Shem.

[Back-formation from SEMITIC.]

Semite: Definition from Answers.com


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 01:23 AM

Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is prejudice against or hostility towards Jews, often rooted in hatred of their ethnic background, culture, and/or religion. A person who practices antisemitism is called an "antisemite."

Antisemitism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
~~~~
Note: "ethnic background, culture, and/or religion"


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 06:50 AM

Words have different meaning depending on context.

Legal definitions of words are often at odds with dictionary definitions.

There are also Political definitions of words.

In politics, an Anti-semite is undoubtedly someone who discriminates against Jews.

Words definitons are specified by context. So while legal definitions may apply in a general context, general dictionary definitions do not apply in a legal context.

So academic and historic definitons of Semite are not to be confused with the political definition.

The risk associated with smudging over this distinction is that someone who hates jews could turn round and say "I'm not anti semitic - I love palestinians".

Allegedly clever remarks like this do not help the debate, much less the plight of Palestinians, but serve instead as facile red herrings.

As I have said before in this thread, there are already enough genuinely contentious issues to keep us going for a lifetime without playing diversionary wordgames.


Ed T,

My comment earlier referred directly to Johns comment about a single state solution being bad because it would end the uniqueness of Israel.

There are grounds upon which to doubt the viability of a one state solution, but johns reasons are not amongst them.

It is important to note that his point was that if you believe in a one state solution it is evidence that you are anti-semitic.

In other words, if you don't agree that Israels "unique character" should be preserved no matter what, then it can only be because you hate Jews - or are a self hating Jew.

This pattern is directly analogous to the BNP approach in England concerning British identity. Interestingly, the BNP also directs the lions share of its hatred against Moslems.

Interestingly I have noted lately that the English Defence League (the BNP's unofficial thug army) have been filmed marching with a couple of Israeli flags in their midst on a few occasions over the last couple of years. This reality is an absurd and preposterous one for obvious historical reasons, but it is a reality nonetheless - the common denominator in such demonstrations being the scapegoating of Moslems, and the wierdest most mind boggling idea being that two such diametrically opposed entities could possibly identify with each other in any way.

Anyway, I digress.

Israel/Palestine is a Political problem that needs political solution ... what is the alternative?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 08:28 AM

The accusation of anti-Semitism has been a red herring from the start of this thread.
The pro-Israelis have used it consistently as a substitute for having no defence for the behaviour of those they are defending.
They have produced no substantial arguments in defence of Israeli atrocities, and, when challenged on their accusations of racism, have produced no substantiating evidence on that either, resorting rather to a cowardly silence
What it boils down to is "If you disagree with me you are an anti-Semitic" - dangerous stuff!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 08:37 AM

"The accusation of anti-Semitism has been a red herring from the start of this thread."

I tend to agree with this, though in the context of the thread it is relevant insofar as many of the rockets fired into Israel have been fired with this motivation at heart.

However as a comment on the motivations or sentiments of commentators on this forum it is a cheap tactic employed in a cowardly way when the unconditionally-pro-Israel argument isn't going well.

Equally, as a comment on the motivation of Palestiians in general, or even on all those who fire rockets, let alonbe Humantarian aid agencies, it reeks of the same calumny and cowardice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 05:40 PM

""That dog don't hunt, Don. You know that 'Anti-Semite" has specifically meant anti-Jewish for near 150 years. We have discussed that numerous times on Mudcat. You don't get to change the definition. I can only assume that you have your own agenda in those two statements above. They do you no credit, my friend.""

I threw that one in John, in expectation of exactly that response.

This is the classic knee jerk of the Pro Israel camp.

Ignore the main thrust of the post, because you don't have any means of rebutting it, and seize on a minor point as a distraction.

I threw you a hook, and I hope you don't damage your gullet digging it out.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 05:51 PM

Hoo-ha, Don. Boy, you really put one over on me. In the immortal words of Bugs Bunny, "Whatta maroon!" So long, Elmer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 07:15 PM

Don, I'm not in the Israel-über-Alles camp, but I have to agree: "antisemitic" refers to hatred of Jews, not of all persons who speak Semitic languages.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 12:49 AM

Lox
OK, thanks for the explanaion, and putting into perspective. It seemed oddly "out of whack" with most of your posts, and perspectivea on the issue, to me....likely my issue, as I was not following each contribution.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 05:43 AM

Interesting insight into Israel's political shenangans for those who doubt the existance of an ultra right in Israel.
The article appears in the Irish Times today next to one on the trial of former Israeli president Moshe Katsav, charged with two counts of rape and one of sexual assault
Jim Carroll

RIGHT-WING GROUP SEEKS SACKING OF LEFT-WING LECTURERS
MARK WEISS
In Jerusalem
A RIGHT-WING pressure group is threatening to drive donors away from one of Israel's top universities if the institution does not sack left-wing lecturers and alter its allegedly "anti-Zionist" curric¬ulum.
The Im Tirzu advocacy group wrote a letter to Beersheba's Ben-Gurion university threatening to pressurise donors to withdraw their money unless the "left-wing bias" among teaching staff was addressed and alterations made to the study programme within 30 days. It also said it would try to per¬suade potential political science students to boycott the university.
Im" Tirzu was set up by right-wing students in 2006 and has campaigned to expose what it per¬ceives as a left-wing bias in Israeli academia. Im Tirzu means, "if you will it", and is a quotation from Theodor Herzl, the founder of modern Zionism: "If you will it, it is no dream."
A recent Im Tirzu report said that nine out of 11 academic staff members in the Ben-Gurion politics and government department are involved in "radical left" polit¬ical activity, and that three out of six doctoral candidates signed a petition supporting a senior lec¬turer who backed an international academic boycott of Israel.
Israel's education minister, Gidon Sa'ar, condemned the Im Tirzu campaign. "Regardless of the claims concerning pluralism in Israeli academia, I categorically reject any move which would harm donations to Israeli universities, or to condition such dona¬tions."
Minister of minority affairs Avishai Braverman, who served as Ben-Gurion university president before entering politics, termed the Im Tirtzu move "borderline fascism". "Academia is a stronghold of ideas and we need to defend it," Mr Braverman said. "Academic freedom is such that it can't be influenced by external sources. If there is a Zionist university, Ben-Gurion is it."
Ben-Gurion university rejected the call to employ more right-wing staff members. "A demand to 'balance' the staff members' political views is extremely reminiscent of McCarthyism and goes against the democratic principles on which the state of Israel was founded," the university said.
Prof David Newman, the newly appointed dean of Ben-Gurion's faculty of humanities and social sci¬ences, who has led Israel's efforts against the international academic boycott, termed the Im Tirzu campaign "a clear attempt to threaten the university in an era of dimin¬ishing financial resources".
He described the accusations of left-wing bias as. "very far from the truth". Accusations from the right in Israel against alleged left-wing bias in Israeli universities are nothing new. Most academics iden¬tify with the progressive wing in Israeli politics, and this was one of the key arguments used by Israelis opposing the campaign abroad for a boycott of Israeli universities.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 05:09 PM

Does anybody with a functional prefrontal cortex doubt the existence of an ultra-right in Israel?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 06:19 PM

The further to the "lolly-gaga-raving-mad-dancing-in-the-nude-in-the-rain" right they are - the fewer of them there are, so naturally they are highly distressed at the massively large numbers of the "lolly-gaga-raving-mad-dancing-in-the-nude-in-the-rain" left there are, and that they must be stopped at all costs ....


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 08:41 PM

Stopped at all costs? Hell, the government just gave them the right to define who is and is not Jewish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 10:25 PM

I wouldn't want to live under Hamas rule. But Palestine is one of the true democracies
in the Mid-East. The people elected Hamas to lead them.

Firing rockets into Israel isn't a great idea but Operation Cast Lead was worse than a terrorist action.

So, you have to expect Hamas to fire rockets. You can't condemn that without also condemning the actions of Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Roberto
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 03:21 AM

Stringsinger writes: "Palestine is one of the true democracies
in the Mid-East".

Democracy is not only the elections.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 03:32 AM

"Democracy is not only the elections. "
It isn't - but it sure ain't blackmailing education establishments in order to remove political opponents
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 04:03 AM

"Democracy is not only the elections."

What I said earlier Roberto.


Maybe someone could explain it to 'John of the Sunset Coast'


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 04:04 AM

"Democracy is not only the elections."

What I said earlier Roberto.


Maybe someone could explain it to 'John of the Sunset Coast'


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 04:26 AM

Democracy is not only the elections.

How ironic for a pro-Israel person to say that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 04:45 AM

Shades of Abu Ghraib - from The Irish Times this morning
Jim Carroll

MORE PHOTOS OF ISRAELI SOLDIERS WITH DETAINEES POSTED TO HIGHLIGHT ISSUE
MARK WEISS
in Jerusalem
AN ISRAELI group advocating an end to the occupation in the West Bank has posted new pictures on Facebook of soldiers posing with Palestinian detainees to prove how widespread the phenomenon is.
Breaking the Silence, an organisation that collects testimonies from soldiers serving in the West Bank, uploaded new images including a group of soldiers posing next to a seriously wounded Palestinian lying on the floor and a picture of a soldier pointing a rifle at a prisoner stripped to his underwear.
The organisation said it uploaded the images in an effort to counter claims by Israeli military officials on Tuesday, in which they condemned the pictures posted by a woman soldier, Eden Abergil, but said that her actions were those of a lone soldier and did not represent the norm.
Ms Abergil, who completed her mandatory military service last year, posted pictures of herself smiling next to Palestinian detainees, prompting a wave of criticism in Israel and around the world. She was stripped of her military rank and will not be called up for reserve duty
Ms Abergil criticised the army's decision, and claimed the affair had been blown out of proportion and that she had never intended to humiliate Palestinians. "I'm very disappointed with the Israel Defence Forces. The army is ungrateful. I risked my life, got injured; I was a model soldier, and now I wish I never served in this army."
Ms Abergil claimed that she has received death threats from all over the world since the story broke.
Breaking the Silence called on the Israeli military spokesman not to underestimate the intelligence of the Israeli public and to admit that this is a widespread phenomenon.
Another Israeli human rights group, Machsom Watch, which monitors the behaviour of soldiers at West Bank checkpoints, linked .the latest set of photographs to the immorality of 43 years of military occupation.
In an opinion piece on the Ynet news website, Edna Canetti from Machsom Watch wrote: "What makes this case special is its banality, triviality, and ordinariness. She was photographed with cuffed human beings for the hell of it. What caught the attention of the media worldwide was the fact that she felt no shame being photographed like that, and no shame sharing the photos."
Meanwhile, supporters of Ms Abergil set up a new Facebook page yesterday entitled: "We're all with Eden Abergil." They also posted fresh images of troops posing in front of Palestinian prisoners and sent messages of support, describing Ms Abergil as an honest soldier and the victim of a military witch-hunt.
The fact that so many soldiers decide to upload photographs on Facebook and similar sites has created a headache for the Israeli military censor.
Army bases have posters reading "Not everyone is your friend on Facebook". In March an operation in the West Bank was called off at the last minute after it became known that one of the soldiers had revealed operational details on a social networking site.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Roberto
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 05:09 AM

mousethief; "How ironic for a pro-Israel person to say that".

I'm not pro-Israel, I'm for the two-state solution. I see that your view is pro or anti. In my opinion, this black and white vision doesn't help.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 06:11 AM

A democracy must have a free press and opposition.
Gaza never had a free press and Hamas has driven to exile the survivors of the opposition.
When will Hamas call the next election?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 11:58 AM

Lox, you said it, you're elected. As you seem to think that I don't know what a Democracy is, so I am your student...you are my guru.

Please, in your own your own thoughts words, please tell me, and us all, what 'democracy' is. Provide 2 or 3examples of countries that you believe fit your ideas and how. You might also provide examples of near or quasi-democracies, and and how they fall short. Finally please provide examples of nations which are not at all democracies, in your considered opinion.

I always say, a day without learning something new is a wasted day. Thank you for making my day meaningful.

John

PS---I realize this is awful thread creep, but that airbus left the airport long ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 03:19 PM

John,

First of all you need to learn to pay attention.

For example, if you pay actual attention to my post and read what is written as opposed to what you creatively appear to have inferred, I have not stated that I know what democracy is any better than anyone else.

What I have stated is that the issue of what constitutes a democracy and what doesn't is a matter of dispute.

I suggested that every democracy in the world is open to scrutiny.

You assert that questioning Israels democracy is evidence of anti-semitism.

In doing so you exempt Israels democracy from scrutiny.


Now pay close attention:

Your argument, in a nutshell, is that by NOT discriminating between Israel and other countries, a commentator on democracy proves himself to be anti-semitic.

I would like to remind you that Anti-semitism is when people DO discriminate on the basis of whether or not somebody is a jew, not when they fail to do so.

Now go to the back of the class!


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 09:06 PM

Is it not problematic to hold what we universally call a democracy (under a historic western definition), in it's many forms (for example, is Israel not a different form, considering it;s religron, as is Japan, who with holds special citizenship rules for the ethnic Japanese, for example), up to a different standard than religeous, communust, or a big mix of other types of states...democratic or not?

Could one not say it is like playing a card game, and the rules are different for the different players?

Maybe, one should consider a broader world perspective,before totally singling out Iasael?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 09:31 PM

Sorry Ed,

I grappled with those first two lines. I angled my head left, and then right and then I just shook it and gave up.

I think I understand your post, but a clarified version would be helpful. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 09:58 PM

Lox--

If you found my last post to you on the dotty side, it is because I did not recognize it as being responsive to anything I had written. I'm still not sure I do.

I stand by what I originally wrote, and not just the summary I posted recently, and I guess that has to be my final word on that subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 10:13 PM

Ok,

If every democracy in the world is open to scrutiny,... Is it the same scrutiny for each democracy and, should the so-called scrutiny be limited to democracies....in this region and others?

I have no issue with scrutiny, if it is equally considered in the world stage....and withing the regional context where it is being weighed.

I use an example of some countrie (for example Japan,even places like Bermuda), and areas within countries, where special privileges exist for its founding peoples.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 10:29 PM

EdT,

The question is - what is true democracy?


What basic principles are required to define a state as a democracy?

Is it just elections or is it more than that?

How much more?



The specific question is - Can state 'x' be said to be a true democracy.


You can ask that question of any state.


John,

On your list of Criteria for establishing an Anti-semite from a Non-Anti-Semite, you include the act of questioning whether Israel is a democracy.

To be specific:

"Claiming Israel is not a democratic country."

Now either you accept that this matter is open to debate or you don't. You can't have it both ways.

And you certainly can't say that it is open to question but only on the grounds that that line of questioning only arrives at the conclusion that you agree with.

The point is that there are many grounds upon which one could claim that Israel is not a democracy that have nothing to do with antisemitism so it is a million miles from being a proof of anything of the sort.


Whether Israel is a proper democracy or not is not something I particularly care to discuss, but I reserve my right to question it if I so choose without being labelled by a vigilante anti-semite hunter with his six gun on his hip runnin' them varmints outta town!


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 08:37 AM

I wonder how wide the term 'democratic' can be stretched.
The Irish foreign office has revealed that it has had to consider cancelling all older passports because of the Israeli secret service Mossad having forged a number of them to be used by its agents abroad in order to assassinate a Hamas leader.
Is state terrorism 'democratic'? I suppose it is really.
Nobody has commented on the humiliation inflicted on Palestinian prisoners by Israeli soldiers - a sign of a healthy democracy?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 12:52 PM

An interesting democracy index:

Democracy


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 06:59 PM

True Democracy was invented by the Ancient Greeks after they were pissed off with their King, and decided that they could do better for themselves and their wallets. Slavery was accepted and they could not vote. Women were not considered citizens, and not allowed to vote. Only Rich Males were Citizens and allowed to vote.

All other claimed forms of "Democracy" are just historical corruptions.

:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Roberto
Date: 21 Aug 10 - 05:40 AM

There is the ancient democracy and the modern democracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Aug 10 - 01:16 PM

The Mid-East problem started in 1967. Hamas was duly elected democratically. The US and Israel have interfered with this election by their stated goals, "Manifest Destiny" in the Mid-East and it's not just about oil either. That said, I wouldn't want to live under Hamas as I've stated earlier. I don't subscribe to Sharia Law.

I say that even with democratic elections, both Israel and Palestine are theocracies, not democracies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Aug 10 - 10:49 PM

"There is the ancient democracy and the modern democracy. "

"both Israel and Palestine are theocracies, not democracies"

"in God we trust" - USA

!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Roberto
Date: 22 Aug 10 - 02:18 AM

The partecipants in this thread have to a great degree different opinions. No problem, we can discuss. But we must respect facts. The Mid East problem didn't start in 1967. Israel is not a theocracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Aug 10 - 02:33 AM

"Israel is not a theocracy."

Oh, I see, no more than Iran is then? :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Roberto
Date: 22 Aug 10 - 03:01 AM

Foolestroupe, Iran has in its Constitution the theory, invented by Khomeiny, of the so called "Velayat-e faqih", and that makes Iran without any doubt a theocracy. If you think that Isarel and Iran are both theocracies, I think you can't make distinctions. But making distinctions is the heart of discussing an issue. It is important to note similitudes, but the most important thing is to make distinctions. Terms can't be used as insults, we must respect their story and meaning.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Aug 10 - 04:14 AM

"It is important to note similitudes, but the most important thing is to make distinctions. Terms can't be used as insults, we must respect their story and meaning. "

One must also distinctly notice the difference between "what he says" & "what he does" - as a Wordsmith I am very interested in Semantics. This involves not only the meanings of words written down in books, but what people actually DO, including ignoring the books and acting differently. So when a people claim all sorts of things, including that some magic invisible sky fairy told them that the land is theirs and theirs alone for ever and ever (and that is part of their theology!), and they take practical and political steps to enforce that belief, there is little practical difference.

"respect their story and meaning" - but if others do not respect that, then why should anybody else. If one side twists and distorts a definition to mean something else, including for all practical purpose, the exact opposite, why should anyone else be bound by some now clearly obsolete definition!


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 22 Aug 10 - 09:16 AM

"But we must respect facts"

A good point.

I have read a few threads on related topics on Mudcat. Some have had a different participant mix, while some have had common participants. Similar arguments have been made, while unique points have been made in each thread.

A problem I observe is there has been few attempts to establish and codefy agreement on anything. It would be refreshing to establish when participants agree. Then, the thread could be a meaningful discussion...versus what many have been, a mixture of dialogue and heated exchanges...whth little attempt to progress beyond that. (My observation is participants often agree on some points, but cannot see that they do...because they are positioned to attack those straying from their firm positions).

Without a base to establish agreement, if it ever evolves...this thread will join the "rambling variety" (where some progress was made, but few knew it)....only to cease when participants are angry or frustrated and spent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Aug 10 - 09:26 PM

"But we must respect facts"

But when people make up their 'facts' as the go along, just renaming 'their opinions' as 'facts', all they reveal is a closed mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 01:00 AM

The Mid-East problem started in 1967

This would be funny if it weren't so sad. You're very deluded if you think the Mid-East problem started in 1967. 1867, maybe.

Israel is not a theocracy.

It has the official structure of a democracy (just as the USA does, and "it is not a plutocracy" right?), but was founded as a Jewish Homeland and Jewish religious groups have special status in the law (for instance a group of Rabbis gets to determine who a "real Jew" is, which in turn dictates immigration policy). But you're right, it's not a theocracy. That would mean God was in charge and that's clearly not the case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 03:28 AM

Strings,

"The Mid-East problem started in 1967"


And all the troubles in N. Ireland started in 1962, and the Nazis in gGermany started in 1944, and all conservatives in the US magically appeared whith R Reagan....


( sarcasm)


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 09:04 AM

"That would mean God was in charge and that's clearly not the case."

I dunno ... the lord thy god is a jealous god ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 09:08 AM

"the Nazis in Germany started in 1944"

Actually, if you are gonna make satirical comments like that, you don't want to be out by THAT many years....

"The German Workers' Party, led by Anton Drexler, was formed in 1919. Hitler joined and soon became leader."

Sigh ....


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 09:10 AM

Oops - wrong key...

"In 1920, the party renamed itself the National Socialist German Workers' Party (Nazis)"


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 09:20 AM

"That would mean God was in charge and that's clearly not the case".

Name a country,theocracy or not, where Gopd is clearly in charge...including Rome:)


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 09:31 PM

Fools,


""the Nazis in Germany started in 1944"

Actually, if you are gonna make satirical comments like that, you don't want to be out by THAT many years....

"The German Workers' Party, led by Anton Drexler, was formed in 1919. Hitler joined and soon became leader."
"


And in 1920 the Jewish Homeland of Mandate Palestine was formed.


1920 is how many years before 1967?

Please address your reply to Stringsinger. HE needs the instruction.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 09:51 PM

"the Nazis in Germany started in 1944"

Actually, if you are gonna make satirical comments like that, you don't want to be out by THAT many years....

"The German Workers' Party, led by Anton Drexler, was formed in 1919. Hitler joined and soon became leader."

Sigh ....


What? 1919 to 1944 is peanuts compared to 1882 (date of first sizeable Zionist immigration) to 1964. And 1882 might not be going back far enough, depending on whom you ask. Religious Zionism depends (or leans heavily) on biblical texts that are at least 3000 years old.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 10:56 PM

"Religious Zionism depends (or leans heavily) on biblical texts that are at least 3000 years old. "

Yep .... the invisible magical sky fairy has been an influence for quite a while....


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 11:19 PM

Shit, I left this thread, because it was ridiculous beyond belief!...Now you are 'debating' the 'merits' of the Nazis versus the Jews???!!??

Look, you fellows on the left side of things, should stand back, take a big breath, shut up, for just a moment, or two, and think to yourselves, just for a moment, mind you,'Am I really that far gone??? Have I talked myself into a corner of the absurd??'

Hitler was no Moses!..and speaking of that, Obama certainly ain't no Jesus, either!!.......and some of you are light years away from being an Einstein!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Aug 10 - 11:55 PM

"Now you are 'debating' the 'merits' of the Nazis versus the Jews"

The whole point is that many people can see little external visible difference in their behaviour, mate... :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Roberto
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 01:30 AM

Foolestroupe (about the Nazis and the Jews): "many people can see little external visible difference in their behaviour"

The deepest ignorance together with a blind hatred.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 03:07 AM

Yep, what can be seen from the outside from someone not in either camp, is largely a blind hatred of each other. They both seem to reject any input from outside. I personally have no hatred of either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 08:28 AM

The Mid-East problem started in 1967 - Stringsinger

Wildly inaccurate and incorrect as that is, at least it sets a bench mark for discussion and possible negotiation.

1967 the year of the "Six Day War", when Israeli Forces recaptured Palestinian Land from those who invaded and occupied it in 1948. The Egyptians having occupied Gaza and the Jordanians who occupied the West Bank and part of Jerusalem.

Now for those who support a two-state solution which includes the Israeli Government (Recorded Fact - they agreed to the 1947 UN Proposal, the Arabs refused it). For that to come about Hamas; Fatah; et all + their backers have to sign up to recognising the State of Israel and the right of its citizens to live without fear of attack.

Right of return goes out the window unless a similar package is proposed for the Jews who were turfed out of their homes and robbed of their possessions throughout the Arab countries of the world, when the great Arab Palestinian "Land Grab" went tits up in 1948 and those troublesome Jews despite all the odds walloped hell out of those who sought to exterminate them and drive them into the sea.

"Palestinians" - a PR invention of that useless waste of space Yasser Arafat - having obtained their State will remain totally dependent upon Israel for commerce and employment, as neither Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon or Syria will entertain them, therefore the quantum shift in thinking has to come from the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah + all the other little terrorist groups that spring up conveniently like mushrooms to keep the whole pot-mess boiling.

Hamas duly and democratically elected by the sheeple of Gaza. Quite remarkable really as Hamas has never done anything for them and isn't about to start to do so now. It was not just the USA that objected to the Hamas Government, it also happened to be the United Nations - You cannot support a newly elected Government that has as a fundamental part of its Charter the demand for the annihilation of another State - That was why they were not recognised.

Nothing said on this thread or any other will alter the situation one iota, so if they would rather fight than talk let them fight and get it over with once and for all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 02:15 PM

""Iran has in its Constitution the theory, invented by Khomeiny, of the so called "Velayat-e faqih", and that makes Iran without any doubt a theocracy. If you think that Isarel and Iran are both theocracies,""

Roberto, given that all of the Israel supporters on this forum jumped all over me when I stated that "Israeli" and "Jew" are not synonymous, and given that they insisted that Israel IS a "Jewish State", it must therefore be a Theocracy.

You can't have it both ways. Judaism is a religion, not a nationality, so either Israel is a theocracy, or it is not a Jewish state.

You choose! .... Which is it?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 03:26 PM

Quite remarkable really as Hamas has never done anything for them and isn't about to start to do so now.

This is either a bald-faced lie, or proof you don't know what you're talking about. Hamas Victory is Built on Social Work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Roberto
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 03:30 PM

The Jews are first of all a People, a Nation. True that religion plays an important role in defining their national identity. I think the Diaspora had much to do in this. But religion doesn't rule the individuals, most of them, nor the State of Israel, although there are fanatics that believe it should and would welcome a theocracy. Don T, the key is in history, syllogisms won't help. R


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 05:32 PM

Well mousethief, Yasser Arafat accumulated over 300 million US$, most of the aid sent to "help" Palestinian Arabs went to unaudited and unauditable "Security" payouts (i.e. Yasser Arafat's hip pocket) Now tell me what he did for the "people" he invented - The Palestinians? Answer SFA apart from keeping them in ignorance and poverty because that is what kept the aid flowing in (Trick he learned from his Uncle, who pulled the same stunt in the 1920's)

With their population and the aid that has been thrown at them Gaza should be a paradise, but oh wait sorry that only comes after you get yourself martyred, much cheaper option and the bad guys get to keep the loot all they have to do is strap some semtex to your back and send you down the road rejoicing. Why build and create jobs? Making home-made Kassam Rockets is good enough employment right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 12:15 AM

Teribus, dear Teribus. What you said had nothing whatever to do with what I said. Why is that? Why not just admit that you were wrong? Oh wait. That would require humility and honesty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 03:04 AM

mouser: "....Why not just admit that you were wrong? Oh wait. That would require humility and honesty."

Hmmm, Sounds like a great premise to come to the Peace table doesn't it? Maybe instead of listing the dishonesty, how about trying a resolve to stick to the agreements!!!!!!!

GfS


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