|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 25 Aug 10 - 03:04 AM mouser: "....Why not just admit that you were wrong? Oh wait. That would require humility and honesty." Hmmm, Sounds like a great premise to come to the Peace table doesn't it? Maybe instead of listing the dishonesty, how about trying a resolve to stick to the agreements!!!!!!! GfS |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: mousethief Date: 25 Aug 10 - 12:15 AM Teribus, dear Teribus. What you said had nothing whatever to do with what I said. Why is that? Why not just admit that you were wrong? Oh wait. That would require humility and honesty. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Teribus Date: 24 Aug 10 - 05:32 PM Well mousethief, Yasser Arafat accumulated over 300 million US$, most of the aid sent to "help" Palestinian Arabs went to unaudited and unauditable "Security" payouts (i.e. Yasser Arafat's hip pocket) Now tell me what he did for the "people" he invented - The Palestinians? Answer SFA apart from keeping them in ignorance and poverty because that is what kept the aid flowing in (Trick he learned from his Uncle, who pulled the same stunt in the 1920's) With their population and the aid that has been thrown at them Gaza should be a paradise, but oh wait sorry that only comes after you get yourself martyred, much cheaper option and the bad guys get to keep the loot all they have to do is strap some semtex to your back and send you down the road rejoicing. Why build and create jobs? Making home-made Kassam Rockets is good enough employment right? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Roberto Date: 24 Aug 10 - 03:30 PM The Jews are first of all a People, a Nation. True that religion plays an important role in defining their national identity. I think the Diaspora had much to do in this. But religion doesn't rule the individuals, most of them, nor the State of Israel, although there are fanatics that believe it should and would welcome a theocracy. Don T, the key is in history, syllogisms won't help. R |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: mousethief Date: 24 Aug 10 - 03:26 PM Quite remarkable really as Hamas has never done anything for them and isn't about to start to do so now. This is either a bald-faced lie, or proof you don't know what you're talking about. Hamas Victory is Built on Social Work. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 24 Aug 10 - 02:15 PM ""Iran has in its Constitution the theory, invented by Khomeiny, of the so called "Velayat-e faqih", and that makes Iran without any doubt a theocracy. If you think that Isarel and Iran are both theocracies,"" Roberto, given that all of the Israel supporters on this forum jumped all over me when I stated that "Israeli" and "Jew" are not synonymous, and given that they insisted that Israel IS a "Jewish State", it must therefore be a Theocracy. You can't have it both ways. Judaism is a religion, not a nationality, so either Israel is a theocracy, or it is not a Jewish state. You choose! .... Which is it? Don T. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Teribus Date: 24 Aug 10 - 08:28 AM The Mid-East problem started in 1967 - Stringsinger Wildly inaccurate and incorrect as that is, at least it sets a bench mark for discussion and possible negotiation. 1967 the year of the "Six Day War", when Israeli Forces recaptured Palestinian Land from those who invaded and occupied it in 1948. The Egyptians having occupied Gaza and the Jordanians who occupied the West Bank and part of Jerusalem. Now for those who support a two-state solution which includes the Israeli Government (Recorded Fact - they agreed to the 1947 UN Proposal, the Arabs refused it). For that to come about Hamas; Fatah; et all + their backers have to sign up to recognising the State of Israel and the right of its citizens to live without fear of attack. Right of return goes out the window unless a similar package is proposed for the Jews who were turfed out of their homes and robbed of their possessions throughout the Arab countries of the world, when the great Arab Palestinian "Land Grab" went tits up in 1948 and those troublesome Jews despite all the odds walloped hell out of those who sought to exterminate them and drive them into the sea. "Palestinians" - a PR invention of that useless waste of space Yasser Arafat - having obtained their State will remain totally dependent upon Israel for commerce and employment, as neither Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon or Syria will entertain them, therefore the quantum shift in thinking has to come from the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah + all the other little terrorist groups that spring up conveniently like mushrooms to keep the whole pot-mess boiling. Hamas duly and democratically elected by the sheeple of Gaza. Quite remarkable really as Hamas has never done anything for them and isn't about to start to do so now. It was not just the USA that objected to the Hamas Government, it also happened to be the United Nations - You cannot support a newly elected Government that has as a fundamental part of its Charter the demand for the annihilation of another State - That was why they were not recognised. Nothing said on this thread or any other will alter the situation one iota, so if they would rather fight than talk let them fight and get it over with once and for all. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 24 Aug 10 - 03:07 AM Yep, what can be seen from the outside from someone not in either camp, is largely a blind hatred of each other. They both seem to reject any input from outside. I personally have no hatred of either. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Roberto Date: 24 Aug 10 - 01:30 AM Foolestroupe (about the Nazis and the Jews): "many people can see little external visible difference in their behaviour" The deepest ignorance together with a blind hatred. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 23 Aug 10 - 11:55 PM "Now you are 'debating' the 'merits' of the Nazis versus the Jews" The whole point is that many people can see little external visible difference in their behaviour, mate... :-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 23 Aug 10 - 11:19 PM Shit, I left this thread, because it was ridiculous beyond belief!...Now you are 'debating' the 'merits' of the Nazis versus the Jews???!!?? Look, you fellows on the left side of things, should stand back, take a big breath, shut up, for just a moment, or two, and think to yourselves, just for a moment, mind you,'Am I really that far gone??? Have I talked myself into a corner of the absurd??' Hitler was no Moses!..and speaking of that, Obama certainly ain't no Jesus, either!!.......and some of you are light years away from being an Einstein!!! GfS |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 23 Aug 10 - 10:56 PM "Religious Zionism depends (or leans heavily) on biblical texts that are at least 3000 years old. " Yep .... the invisible magical sky fairy has been an influence for quite a while.... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: mousethief Date: 23 Aug 10 - 09:51 PM "the Nazis in Germany started in 1944" Actually, if you are gonna make satirical comments like that, you don't want to be out by THAT many years.... "The German Workers' Party, led by Anton Drexler, was formed in 1919. Hitler joined and soon became leader." Sigh .... What? 1919 to 1944 is peanuts compared to 1882 (date of first sizeable Zionist immigration) to 1964. And 1882 might not be going back far enough, depending on whom you ask. Religious Zionism depends (or leans heavily) on biblical texts that are at least 3000 years old. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: beardedbruce Date: 23 Aug 10 - 09:31 PM Fools, ""the Nazis in Germany started in 1944" Actually, if you are gonna make satirical comments like that, you don't want to be out by THAT many years.... "The German Workers' Party, led by Anton Drexler, was formed in 1919. Hitler joined and soon became leader." " And in 1920 the Jewish Homeland of Mandate Palestine was formed. 1920 is how many years before 1967? Please address your reply to Stringsinger. HE needs the instruction. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Ed T Date: 23 Aug 10 - 09:20 AM "That would mean God was in charge and that's clearly not the case". Name a country,theocracy or not, where Gopd is clearly in charge...including Rome:) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 23 Aug 10 - 09:10 AM Oops - wrong key... "In 1920, the party renamed itself the National Socialist German Workers' Party (Nazis)" |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 23 Aug 10 - 09:08 AM "the Nazis in Germany started in 1944" Actually, if you are gonna make satirical comments like that, you don't want to be out by THAT many years.... "The German Workers' Party, led by Anton Drexler, was formed in 1919. Hitler joined and soon became leader." Sigh .... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 23 Aug 10 - 09:04 AM "That would mean God was in charge and that's clearly not the case." I dunno ... the lord thy god is a jealous god ... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: beardedbruce Date: 23 Aug 10 - 03:28 AM Strings, "The Mid-East problem started in 1967" And all the troubles in N. Ireland started in 1962, and the Nazis in gGermany started in 1944, and all conservatives in the US magically appeared whith R Reagan.... ( sarcasm) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: mousethief Date: 23 Aug 10 - 01:00 AM The Mid-East problem started in 1967 This would be funny if it weren't so sad. You're very deluded if you think the Mid-East problem started in 1967. 1867, maybe. Israel is not a theocracy. It has the official structure of a democracy (just as the USA does, and "it is not a plutocracy" right?), but was founded as a Jewish Homeland and Jewish religious groups have special status in the law (for instance a group of Rabbis gets to determine who a "real Jew" is, which in turn dictates immigration policy). But you're right, it's not a theocracy. That would mean God was in charge and that's clearly not the case. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 22 Aug 10 - 09:26 PM "But we must respect facts" But when people make up their 'facts' as the go along, just renaming 'their opinions' as 'facts', all they reveal is a closed mind. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Ed T Date: 22 Aug 10 - 09:16 AM "But we must respect facts" A good point. I have read a few threads on related topics on Mudcat. Some have had a different participant mix, while some have had common participants. Similar arguments have been made, while unique points have been made in each thread. A problem I observe is there has been few attempts to establish and codefy agreement on anything. It would be refreshing to establish when participants agree. Then, the thread could be a meaningful discussion...versus what many have been, a mixture of dialogue and heated exchanges...whth little attempt to progress beyond that. (My observation is participants often agree on some points, but cannot see that they do...because they are positioned to attack those straying from their firm positions). Without a base to establish agreement, if it ever evolves...this thread will join the "rambling variety" (where some progress was made, but few knew it)....only to cease when participants are angry or frustrated and spent. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 22 Aug 10 - 04:14 AM "It is important to note similitudes, but the most important thing is to make distinctions. Terms can't be used as insults, we must respect their story and meaning. " One must also distinctly notice the difference between "what he says" & "what he does" - as a Wordsmith I am very interested in Semantics. This involves not only the meanings of words written down in books, but what people actually DO, including ignoring the books and acting differently. So when a people claim all sorts of things, including that some magic invisible sky fairy told them that the land is theirs and theirs alone for ever and ever (and that is part of their theology!), and they take practical and political steps to enforce that belief, there is little practical difference. "respect their story and meaning" - but if others do not respect that, then why should anybody else. If one side twists and distorts a definition to mean something else, including for all practical purpose, the exact opposite, why should anyone else be bound by some now clearly obsolete definition! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Roberto Date: 22 Aug 10 - 03:01 AM Foolestroupe, Iran has in its Constitution the theory, invented by Khomeiny, of the so called "Velayat-e faqih", and that makes Iran without any doubt a theocracy. If you think that Isarel and Iran are both theocracies, I think you can't make distinctions. But making distinctions is the heart of discussing an issue. It is important to note similitudes, but the most important thing is to make distinctions. Terms can't be used as insults, we must respect their story and meaning. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 22 Aug 10 - 02:33 AM "Israel is not a theocracy." Oh, I see, no more than Iran is then? :-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Roberto Date: 22 Aug 10 - 02:18 AM The partecipants in this thread have to a great degree different opinions. No problem, we can discuss. But we must respect facts. The Mid East problem didn't start in 1967. Israel is not a theocracy. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 21 Aug 10 - 10:49 PM "There is the ancient democracy and the modern democracy. " "both Israel and Palestine are theocracies, not democracies" "in God we trust" - USA !!!! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Stringsinger Date: 21 Aug 10 - 01:16 PM The Mid-East problem started in 1967. Hamas was duly elected democratically. The US and Israel have interfered with this election by their stated goals, "Manifest Destiny" in the Mid-East and it's not just about oil either. That said, I wouldn't want to live under Hamas as I've stated earlier. I don't subscribe to Sharia Law. I say that even with democratic elections, both Israel and Palestine are theocracies, not democracies. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Roberto Date: 21 Aug 10 - 05:40 AM There is the ancient democracy and the modern democracy. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 20 Aug 10 - 06:59 PM True Democracy was invented by the Ancient Greeks after they were pissed off with their King, and decided that they could do better for themselves and their wallets. Slavery was accepted and they could not vote. Women were not considered citizens, and not allowed to vote. Only Rich Males were Citizens and allowed to vote. All other claimed forms of "Democracy" are just historical corruptions. :-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Ed T Date: 20 Aug 10 - 12:52 PM An interesting democracy index: Democracy |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Aug 10 - 08:37 AM I wonder how wide the term 'democratic' can be stretched. The Irish foreign office has revealed that it has had to consider cancelling all older passports because of the Israeli secret service Mossad having forged a number of them to be used by its agents abroad in order to assassinate a Hamas leader. Is state terrorism 'democratic'? I suppose it is really. Nobody has commented on the humiliation inflicted on Palestinian prisoners by Israeli soldiers - a sign of a healthy democracy? Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Lox Date: 19 Aug 10 - 10:29 PM EdT, The question is - what is true democracy? What basic principles are required to define a state as a democracy? Is it just elections or is it more than that? How much more? The specific question is - Can state 'x' be said to be a true democracy. You can ask that question of any state. John, On your list of Criteria for establishing an Anti-semite from a Non-Anti-Semite, you include the act of questioning whether Israel is a democracy. To be specific: "Claiming Israel is not a democratic country." Now either you accept that this matter is open to debate or you don't. You can't have it both ways. And you certainly can't say that it is open to question but only on the grounds that that line of questioning only arrives at the conclusion that you agree with. The point is that there are many grounds upon which one could claim that Israel is not a democracy that have nothing to do with antisemitism so it is a million miles from being a proof of anything of the sort. Whether Israel is a proper democracy or not is not something I particularly care to discuss, but I reserve my right to question it if I so choose without being labelled by a vigilante anti-semite hunter with his six gun on his hip runnin' them varmints outta town! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Ed T Date: 19 Aug 10 - 10:13 PM Ok, If every democracy in the world is open to scrutiny,... Is it the same scrutiny for each democracy and, should the so-called scrutiny be limited to democracies....in this region and others? I have no issue with scrutiny, if it is equally considered in the world stage....and withing the regional context where it is being weighed. I use an example of some countrie (for example Japan,even places like Bermuda), and areas within countries, where special privileges exist for its founding peoples. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 19 Aug 10 - 09:58 PM Lox-- If you found my last post to you on the dotty side, it is because I did not recognize it as being responsive to anything I had written. I'm still not sure I do. I stand by what I originally wrote, and not just the summary I posted recently, and I guess that has to be my final word on that subject. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Lox Date: 19 Aug 10 - 09:31 PM Sorry Ed, I grappled with those first two lines. I angled my head left, and then right and then I just shook it and gave up. I think I understand your post, but a clarified version would be helpful. :-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Ed T Date: 19 Aug 10 - 09:06 PM Is it not problematic to hold what we universally call a democracy (under a historic western definition), in it's many forms (for example, is Israel not a different form, considering it;s religron, as is Japan, who with holds special citizenship rules for the ethnic Japanese, for example), up to a different standard than religeous, communust, or a big mix of other types of states...democratic or not? Could one not say it is like playing a card game, and the rules are different for the different players? Maybe, one should consider a broader world perspective,before totally singling out Iasael? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Lox Date: 19 Aug 10 - 03:19 PM John, First of all you need to learn to pay attention. For example, if you pay actual attention to my post and read what is written as opposed to what you creatively appear to have inferred, I have not stated that I know what democracy is any better than anyone else. What I have stated is that the issue of what constitutes a democracy and what doesn't is a matter of dispute. I suggested that every democracy in the world is open to scrutiny. You assert that questioning Israels democracy is evidence of anti-semitism. In doing so you exempt Israels democracy from scrutiny. Now pay close attention: Your argument, in a nutshell, is that by NOT discriminating between Israel and other countries, a commentator on democracy proves himself to be anti-semitic. I would like to remind you that Anti-semitism is when people DO discriminate on the basis of whether or not somebody is a jew, not when they fail to do so. Now go to the back of the class! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 19 Aug 10 - 11:58 AM Lox, you said it, you're elected. As you seem to think that I don't know what a Democracy is, so I am your student...you are my guru. Please, in your own your own thoughts words, please tell me, and us all, what 'democracy' is. Provide 2 or 3examples of countries that you believe fit your ideas and how. You might also provide examples of near or quasi-democracies, and and how they fall short. Finally please provide examples of nations which are not at all democracies, in your considered opinion. I always say, a day without learning something new is a wasted day. Thank you for making my day meaningful. John PS---I realize this is awful thread creep, but that airbus left the airport long ago. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 19 Aug 10 - 06:11 AM A democracy must have a free press and opposition. Gaza never had a free press and Hamas has driven to exile the survivors of the opposition. When will Hamas call the next election? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Roberto Date: 19 Aug 10 - 05:09 AM mousethief; "How ironic for a pro-Israel person to say that". I'm not pro-Israel, I'm for the two-state solution. I see that your view is pro or anti. In my opinion, this black and white vision doesn't help. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Aug 10 - 04:45 AM Shades of Abu Ghraib - from The Irish Times this morning Jim Carroll MORE PHOTOS OF ISRAELI SOLDIERS WITH DETAINEES POSTED TO HIGHLIGHT ISSUE MARK WEISS in Jerusalem AN ISRAELI group advocating an end to the occupation in the West Bank has posted new pictures on Facebook of soldiers posing with Palestinian detainees to prove how widespread the phenomenon is. Breaking the Silence, an organisation that collects testimonies from soldiers serving in the West Bank, uploaded new images including a group of soldiers posing next to a seriously wounded Palestinian lying on the floor and a picture of a soldier pointing a rifle at a prisoner stripped to his underwear. The organisation said it uploaded the images in an effort to counter claims by Israeli military officials on Tuesday, in which they condemned the pictures posted by a woman soldier, Eden Abergil, but said that her actions were those of a lone soldier and did not represent the norm. Ms Abergil, who completed her mandatory military service last year, posted pictures of herself smiling next to Palestinian detainees, prompting a wave of criticism in Israel and around the world. She was stripped of her military rank and will not be called up for reserve duty Ms Abergil criticised the army's decision, and claimed the affair had been blown out of proportion and that she had never intended to humiliate Palestinians. "I'm very disappointed with the Israel Defence Forces. The army is ungrateful. I risked my life, got injured; I was a model soldier, and now I wish I never served in this army." Ms Abergil claimed that she has received death threats from all over the world since the story broke. Breaking the Silence called on the Israeli military spokesman not to underestimate the intelligence of the Israeli public and to admit that this is a widespread phenomenon. Another Israeli human rights group, Machsom Watch, which monitors the behaviour of soldiers at West Bank checkpoints, linked .the latest set of photographs to the immorality of 43 years of military occupation. In an opinion piece on the Ynet news website, Edna Canetti from Machsom Watch wrote: "What makes this case special is its banality, triviality, and ordinariness. She was photographed with cuffed human beings for the hell of it. What caught the attention of the media worldwide was the fact that she felt no shame being photographed like that, and no shame sharing the photos." Meanwhile, supporters of Ms Abergil set up a new Facebook page yesterday entitled: "We're all with Eden Abergil." They also posted fresh images of troops posing in front of Palestinian prisoners and sent messages of support, describing Ms Abergil as an honest soldier and the victim of a military witch-hunt. The fact that so many soldiers decide to upload photographs on Facebook and similar sites has created a headache for the Israeli military censor. Army bases have posters reading "Not everyone is your friend on Facebook". In March an operation in the West Bank was called off at the last minute after it became known that one of the soldiers had revealed operational details on a social networking site. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: mousethief Date: 19 Aug 10 - 04:26 AM Democracy is not only the elections. How ironic for a pro-Israel person to say that. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Lox Date: 19 Aug 10 - 04:04 AM "Democracy is not only the elections." What I said earlier Roberto. Maybe someone could explain it to 'John of the Sunset Coast' |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: GUEST Date: 19 Aug 10 - 04:03 AM "Democracy is not only the elections." What I said earlier Roberto. Maybe someone could explain it to 'John of the Sunset Coast' |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Aug 10 - 03:32 AM "Democracy is not only the elections. " It isn't - but it sure ain't blackmailing education establishments in order to remove political opponents Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Roberto Date: 19 Aug 10 - 03:21 AM Stringsinger writes: "Palestine is one of the true democracies in the Mid-East". Democracy is not only the elections. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Stringsinger Date: 18 Aug 10 - 10:25 PM I wouldn't want to live under Hamas rule. But Palestine is one of the true democracies in the Mid-East. The people elected Hamas to lead them. Firing rockets into Israel isn't a great idea but Operation Cast Lead was worse than a terrorist action. So, you have to expect Hamas to fire rockets. You can't condemn that without also condemning the actions of Israel. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: mousethief Date: 18 Aug 10 - 08:41 PM Stopped at all costs? Hell, the government just gave them the right to define who is and is not Jewish. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 18 Aug 10 - 06:19 PM The further to the "lolly-gaga-raving-mad-dancing-in-the-nude-in-the-rain" right they are - the fewer of them there are, so naturally they are highly distressed at the massively large numbers of the "lolly-gaga-raving-mad-dancing-in-the-nude-in-the-rain" left there are, and that they must be stopped at all costs .... |
