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BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.

Lox 03 Aug 10 - 09:38 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Aug 10 - 09:46 PM
Lox 03 Aug 10 - 09:52 PM
number 6 03 Aug 10 - 10:00 PM
Jack the Sailor 03 Aug 10 - 10:29 PM
Jack the Sailor 03 Aug 10 - 10:40 PM
mousethief 03 Aug 10 - 11:01 PM
number 6 03 Aug 10 - 11:06 PM
number 6 03 Aug 10 - 11:08 PM
number 6 03 Aug 10 - 11:26 PM
The Fooles Troupe 04 Aug 10 - 12:40 AM
The Fooles Troupe 04 Aug 10 - 12:42 AM
The Fooles Troupe 04 Aug 10 - 12:51 AM
Joe Offer 04 Aug 10 - 01:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 10 - 02:50 AM
The Fooles Troupe 04 Aug 10 - 03:08 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Aug 10 - 03:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 10 - 04:12 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Aug 10 - 04:20 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Aug 10 - 05:11 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Aug 10 - 05:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 10 - 06:40 AM
kendall 04 Aug 10 - 06:58 AM
Ed T 04 Aug 10 - 07:05 AM
bobad 04 Aug 10 - 07:09 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Aug 10 - 07:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 10 - 07:39 AM
Lox 04 Aug 10 - 08:21 AM
Lox 04 Aug 10 - 08:31 AM
The Fooles Troupe 04 Aug 10 - 08:34 AM
number 6 04 Aug 10 - 08:41 AM
Roberto 04 Aug 10 - 08:41 AM
Roberto 04 Aug 10 - 08:50 AM
Lox 04 Aug 10 - 08:56 AM
number 6 04 Aug 10 - 09:14 AM
bobad 04 Aug 10 - 09:27 AM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Aug 10 - 09:41 AM
GUEST,ichMael 04 Aug 10 - 09:49 AM
Lox 04 Aug 10 - 10:28 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Aug 10 - 11:11 AM
Teribus 04 Aug 10 - 11:22 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Aug 10 - 11:33 AM
Roberto 04 Aug 10 - 12:06 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Aug 10 - 12:19 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 10 - 12:32 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Aug 10 - 12:42 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Aug 10 - 12:51 PM
GUEST,number 6 04 Aug 10 - 12:52 PM
beardedbruce 04 Aug 10 - 01:00 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Aug 10 - 01:03 PM

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Subject: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 09:38 PM

For a long time now rockets have been fired at random into Israel from Gaza and as a result Israeli civilians have been maimed and killed.

My views are.

1. Firing rockets into random civilian areas is a crime, in Israel as anywhere else.

2. Firing rockets into random civilian areas, from a political perspective, serves only to deepen the problems faced by palestinians living in Gaza.


Politically, I find the balance of power between Israel and palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank to be very one sided and I strongly oppose what I perceive to be a deliberate policy of humiliation of Palestinians in the occupied territories.

However, I do not agree that the political situation justifies violence and I condemn outright anyone who uses violence to achieve their aims.

I am curious to know if anyone on the mudcat supports or defends the firing of rockets from Gaza into Israel.

If not then this is likely to be a short discussion.

But you never know, there might be someone who thinks they are necessary, morally acceptable or deserved.

Please note that my enquiry is specific to the rocket attacks and attempted rocket attacks against Israel.

Anyone think its right to blow up Israelis?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 09:46 PM

Is it wrong for Israeli rockets to blow up Gazans?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 09:52 PM

As you are asking, in my opinion definitely yes.

However, the point has been made repeatedly on this forum that noone pays any attention to Gazan rockets being fired at Israel.

Therefore i have created an opportunity for people to share the full range of views on that specific subject.

Still no support for the firing of rockets into Israel ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: number 6
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 10:00 PM

sad, very sad.

we sit at our computer terminals and debate the justification and morality killing civilians ... which is more tragic, a dead palestinian, or a dead Israeli?

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 10:29 PM

>>which is more tragic, a dead palestinian, or a dead Israeli?<<

I don't think that it is right to fire rockets at civilians.

I don't know who is firing the rockets or what the intended targets are.

I am told that the rockets are very primitive and difficult to aim.

On the other hand I do know that Israel has access to the the most accurate weapons on earth ant that they manage to kill hundreds of Palestinians for every Israeli who is harmed.

Our supposed good friends and allies had earned more respect than rag tag bands of insurgents. But with that respect should come responsibility, not knee jerk disproportionate violence.

Isn't the actual moral question

Which is more tragic, hundreds of dead palestinians, or one dead Israeli?

Or Millions of suffering Palistinians vs a few Israeli militant settlers who have to run to a shelter once in a while when the alarms go off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 10:40 PM

BTW Lox,

You have only Israel's word that the rockets are being fired by Hamas.

I have heard UN officials report that Hamas police are routinely shot by snipers on the Israel side of the border when trying to arrest people firing rockets.

I find this very easy to believe because when Hamas was not in charge Israel responded to their rocket attacks by destroying Palistinian Authority Police stations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 11:01 PM

Firing rockets at Israelis is wrong. Then again, squatting on other people's land for 43 years is also wrong. Throwing rocks at Israelis is wrong. Then again, tearing up people's homes and olive groves to make subdivisions for Jewish settlers is also wrong. Suicide bombers are wrong. Then again, denying people basic building supplies to rebuild the infrastructure that you destroyed is also wrong.

Lots of wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: number 6
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 11:06 PM

1 dead Palestinian child


1 dead Israeli child




biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: number 6
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 11:08 PM

1 grieving Palestinian mother



1 grieving Israeli mother




biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: number 6
Date: 03 Aug 10 - 11:26 PM

1 rocket made in a factory somewhere in the U.S. .... clinical, precision, target determined with prejudice



1 rocket made in a factory somewhere in Iran .... clinical, precision, target determined with prejudice



biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 12:40 AM

Ah - sp now to distract us we have a NEW thread to obfuscate matters

Israel-Lebanon border clash kills five people

The Lebanese army says Israeli soldiers crossed the border to uproot a tree which was blocking their view near the Lebanese village of Adaysseh.

A Lebanese army spokesman said troops had fired warning shots and Israel had responded with fire from artillery positions and helicopters.

The Lebanese army confirmed to the BBC that three of its soldiers had been killed and four wounded. The al-Akhbar newspaper confirmed that one of its journalists, Assaf Abu Rahhal, had also been killed.

Hezbollah fighters, who battled Israel four years ago, took no part in the exchange of fire. But Hezbollah leader Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah said the group would not stand silent if Israel attacked the Lebanese army in the future.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

IDF WP bursts clearly visible on news footage - if 'only for cover' - why are they targeting Lebanese positions?

~~~~~~~~~~
"Lebanon's Higher Council for Defense headed by President Michel Suleiman said it held Israel accountable for Tuesday's clash and it would complain to the U.N. Security Council.

Israeli complained to the U.N Security Council over the clash, saying it held the government of Lebanon responsible. "

But - he hit me back first!


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 12:42 AM

"I have heard UN officials report that Hamas police are routinely shot by snipers on the Israel side of the border when trying to arrest people firing rockets. "

IDF border patrol forces regularly fire across the border on Gaza farmers trying to work their fields.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 12:51 AM

"there might be someone who thinks they are ... deserved."

Exodus 21:24 - eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot

The "eye for an eye" maxim is not about harshness; it's about proportional retribution

So the madness can never end while this goes on... matters of 'right or wrong' or 'moral justification' are pointless really....


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:51 AM

Which is more tragic, hundreds of dead palestinians, or one dead Israeli?

Every death is absolutely tragic. No comparison of numbers is valid; and it is obscene to attempt to justify killing as righteous retribution, simply because one side has killed more than the other side. It is absolutely horrible to kill one person, and it is absolutely horrible to kill a hundred.

The killing has to stop. There is no justification for it, on either side. Neither side has moral superiority. Both are wrong, and both will be horribly wrong every time they kill another person. Nobody can even remember the reason why all this killing started. It has been going on for over sixty years.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 02:50 AM

I wonder if Jim Carrol will make a contribution.
He has been ambiguous about Hamas' rockets, and said of them, "Every little helps."

Because they are intended for civilians, they are indisputably a war crime.
The israelis only attacked is response to the rockets and to try to stop them. States are allowed to respond in self defence.
What alternative did they have?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:08 AM

You ARE a plant Keith.... how much are you paid to take only one side of an argument?

"The killing has to stop. There is no justification for it, on either side. Neither side has moral superiority. Both are wrong, and both will be horribly wrong every time they kill another person"

Amen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 03:53 AM

>>>Every death is absolutely tragic. No comparison of numbers is valid<<<

Absolutely agree, Joe. But that is not how things are always viewed. Who was it who cynically said that he worked policy-wise on the basis that one death is a tragedy but ten-thousand deaths are merely a statistic? Hitler, was it? Or Göbbels? One of those bozos, anyhow.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:12 AM

"The killing has to stop. There is no justification for it, on either side. "

The rockets into Israel were and are unprovoked.
If IDF reply and kill a rocket firer, I would say that was justified self defence.
He would have fired another next day.

Israel is a democracy and its people expect and demand their government to take action against the rockets.
Could someone list the alternatives to military action against them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:20 AM

The point must be made again too, surely, that Gaza is also a democracy ~ which fairly recently held elections ~ and elected Hamas ~ who are the ones firing the rockets: which can accordingly presumably be said to emanate with the avowed and explicit support of the majority of the population of Gaza. Is it not ∴ at least arguable that they have thus brought the IDF retaliation on themselves?

Just putting the point for consideration...

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 05:11 AM

As far as I am concerned all killing is an obscenity, - an idealist's point of view, but in the real world it seem so be an ingrained feature of our culture, so short of climbing a mountain and finding Shangri-La, we have to make a judgement of each situation and seek to improve it.
We've discussed the Palestinian question ad-nauseum and there seems little point in opening another thread to continue it here, though I've no doubt that it won't be too long before we're back slagging each other off. I would be grateful if we could address the issue in hand and not use this in order to score points over individuals, as has already started to happen.
My assessment of the situation of the Israel/Palestinian situation as far as who is killing who, is that Israel is a well armed militaristic State with nuclear weapons who have used their superior strength to seize territory and drive Palestinians from their homes. They have had no hesitation in using heavy weaponry, including debilitating and lethal chemical weapons which they have turned on the Palestinian population in general.
Next to the Israeli arsenal, those used by the Palestinians are little more than pea-shooters and compared to their nuclear capacity, they are equivilent to little more than a draught from an open window .
The Israelis have said they will return to the conference table within two weeks - I very much doubt if that would have happened if it hadn't been for the Palestinian opposition, feeble as it has been, and for their 'own goal' act of piracy which has dragged their behaviour into the public eye with a vengeance.
Condemning Palestinian retaliation out of context is the same as condemning the French tactics used in opposing the Nazi occupiers, or the Irish against the British Empire, or the Viet-Namese for using the tactics they did against the might of the US - poor against weak; David against Goliath, however you care to term it.
Yes - the Palestinians should stop killing and wounding Israelis, and the Israelis should stop killing Palestinians - but as neither are going to at the present time, what do people suggest the Palestinians should do to protect their homes and lives - turn the other cheek, surrender?
WITHOUT AN ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION ANY DISCUSSION ON THE CONFLICT DEPENDS ENTIRELY ON WHICH SIDE YOU SUPPORT - NOTHING MORE.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 05:20 AM

Sorry Joe, didn't see your post.
"Nobody can even remember the reason why all this killing started. It has been going on for over sixty years."
Beg to disgree - the Palestinians are reminded of what it is about each time they come to a checkpoint, or try to get to their land on the other side of the Berlin-type wall, or are evicted by settlers who can't be botheres to wait for the court's decision, or have their homes destroyed to build a tourist centre, or see tanks rolling up their streets to demolish their houses, schools and hospitals, or try to feed their children during the blockade..... National and World Wars have been fought on these issues.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 06:40 AM

" the Palestinians should stop killing and wounding Israelis, and the Israelis should stop killing Palestinians - but as neither are going to at the present time, what do people suggest the Palestinians should do to protect their homes and lives - turn the other cheek, surrender? "

I think they should stop firing rockets to kill civilians.
It is impossible to construe such attacks as defensive.
The Israelis would then have no pretext, if that is what it is, for their strikes against Hamas.

After Israel withdrew from Gaza, the rockets continued unprovoked, and preceded each IDF strike and were claimed as the justification for each strike.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: kendall
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 06:58 AM

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth only makes the whole world blind and toothless. (M. Mahatma Gandhi)


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Ed T
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 07:05 AM

The "eye for an eye" maxim is not about harshness; it's about proportional retribution.

Should one also consider 911. Was there a "proportional retribution" in Iraq and Afganistan?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: bobad
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 07:09 AM

"The "eye for an eye" maxim is not about harshness; it's about proportional retribution."

So Israel should just fire rockets and mortars into Gaza and that would make it alright?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 07:23 AM

"So Israel should just fire rockets and mortars into Gaza and that would make it alright?"
No - but in the extremely unlikely event of their layind down their heavy and chemical weapons and have no more incursions it would level the playing field.
"I think they should stop firing rockets to kill civilians."
And then Israel would withdraw back behind the pre-six day war boundaries and they'd all live happily ever after.
Yeah, right!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 07:39 AM

If the rockets stop, Israel's retaliatory strikes will immediately stop too.
The incursion would never have happened.
No more killing.
And then negotiations could restart.
Just stop the rockets.
Launching them is a war crime.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 08:21 AM

I haven't read any support for the rockets being fired into Israel from Gaza yet.

I have read support for Israeli violence against Gazan Civilians.


The purpose of this thread was to see if anyone supported the Rockets from Gaza.


Some say no, but they point out that Israel is as bad if not worse as they have committed the same crime more often.

Others have said no, but they do support Israeli attacks.



This is important to me as it clarifies that everyone agrees that the rockets are BAD.


Hear that Bruce?


Its not much of a discussion is it?


We all condemn the rockets.



Nit all of us condemn the Israeli attacks.



Some of us defend them and support them.



So what is left to be discussed?



This - ... Israeli attacks on Gaza are a crime.



DO YOU SEE ... THATS WHY WE TALK ABOUT ISRAELI AGGRESSION AND NOT THE ROCKETS.


No matter which way the bigots twist and wriggle, their utter lack of humanity and compassion and their self righteous cruelty shine out clearer and clearer with each word they utter.

Keith is definitely one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 08:31 AM

Keith says:

"The rockets into Israel were and are unprovoked.
If IDF reply and kill a rocket firer, I would say that was justified self defence.
He would have fired another next day."

What an ignorant - no - wilfully dishonest thing to say.

So the IDF only kills the rocket firer eh?

I put it to you that a smnall percentage of those killed by the IDF ever come within spitting distance of a rocket.


This thread was intended to be revealing. It is fulfilling its purpose superbly well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 08:34 AM

Naughty Lox - they don't want rationality .... they are having too much fun being blind and bigoted ....


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: number 6
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 08:41 AM

well Lox,

Go to an Israeli mother who child has been killed by a rocket, and go to a Palestinian mother whose child was killed by a rocket ... and proclaim to them loud and clear that yes .... "Keith was wrong, way wrong, and I was right".

the insanity of it all.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Roberto
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 08:41 AM

Jim writes: and then Israel would withdraw back behind the pre-six day war boundaries and they'd all live happily ever after.

I see your sentence is ironical, but as for the pre-six day war boundaries, don't forget Israel was within its pre-six day war boundaries in 1967, when it got attacked by Egypt, Syria and Jordan, and Israel was within its 1947 boundaries, the ones decided by the UN, when it got attacked by Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Roberto
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 08:50 AM

correct version

Jim writes: and then Israel would withdraw back behind the pre-six day war boundaries and they'd all live happily ever after.

I see your sentence is ironical, but as for the pre-six day war boundaries, don't forget Israel was within its pre-six day war boundaries in 1967, when it got attacked by Egypt, Syria and Jordan, and Israel was within its 1947 boundaries, the ones decided by the UN, when it got attacked (in 1948) by Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 08:56 AM

Number 6.

Your comments have no bearing on mine.

I have made no comparison between Israeli lives and Palestinian lives.

The fact that I haven't commented on your point is down to the fact that I have no interest in it.

I wanted to know if anyone supports the Gazan Rockets being fired at Israel.

The answer so far is NO.


Some have volunteered unsolicited points of view on other matters.

For example some have pointed out that Israel has committed the same crime a hundredfold, and some have spoken out in support of Israeli attacks.


If you are so concerned about dying chldren, why don't you address the people who speak out in support of violence.

The only people speaking out on this thread in support of violence are those who have openly supported the Israeli attacks.


I said I condemn the Palestinian rockets.

As it happens I also condemn the Israeli attacks.


So I condemn ALL the killing.


So ask Keith or BB or someone who SUPPORTS Israeli violence and tell them to go to the Palestinian mother.


Is that too hard for you to understand?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: number 6
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 09:14 AM

Lox,

I and most of the individuals who have responded to this thread have read the various posts in 'other threads' were you, BB and whoever have expressed their views concerning the ongoing tragedy in the mideast ... we can deduce from what has been posted on where people stand in regards to the issue.

What I don't understand is why you have initiated a thread just to prove the one sided view that you are right, and they are wrong. I sincerely believe everyone who has responded in this thread is repulsed by the killing of innocent civilians on both sides. Let's don't continue the violence of war, and find justification for war ... let's forget the past and just hope and support peace for evermore. Sounds simple, but it just might work ... as Mr. Lennon preached ... "give peace a chance"

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: bobad
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 09:27 AM

Didn't take too long for a thread about Hamas rockets being fired at Israel to turn into another Israel bashing frenzy by the usual subjects.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 09:41 AM

"The rockets into Israel were and are unprovoked."

There is always a provocation for every reprisal. And there is always a reprisal for every provocation.

The only difference between a provocation and a reprisal lies in who is writing the press release.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,ichMael
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 09:49 AM

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=hamas+founded+by+israel&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

Israel founded Hamas to act as a bogeyman organization. All major terrorist activity in the world is done at the bidding of the Israeli, American and British intelligence agencies. Hamas is a puppet of the Mossad.

WW3 is coming. Most likely we'll be told that Hamas or bin Laden are killing innocent Israeli babies, and Israel will use one of its nuclear subs to attack someone, then the US will show support by attacking Iran, or Pakistan. Don't fall for it. Israel is the most politically dirty country on earth. Don't support Israel in its terrorism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 10:28 AM

Bobad:

EVERYONE CONDEMNS THE USE OF ROCKETS AGAINST ISRAEL.

What else is there to say on that subject?


On the other hand, some people support the use of violence against palestinians.


They have their opponents.

Hence a discussion.


Engage brain - simple point - easy to understand.


Obviously easier to stick fingers in ears and accuse the world of being anti semitic.


Do you support Israeli use of violence against Palestinians?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 11:11 AM

There is very little, if any discussion about the responsibility of the Western powers in this dispute - either of their role in manner in which the State of Israel was created in the first place, and in the more recent self-interested washing of hands of the affair, especially by the US which has all along bowed to the economic and political pressure of the friends of Israel.
Maybe the solution to the whole affair would be for somebody to discover oil there - that should get things moving in the West!
Keith - you and I have had more of our fair share of these arguments - I have no intention of entering into another blind alley discussion with you and nause up yet another thread - I suggest you follow my example and don't try to provoke one.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 11:22 AM

If IDF reply and kill a rocket firer, I would say that was justified self defence. - Keith

Gets translated to:

So the IDF only kills the rocket firer eh? - by Lox

Obviously in Keith's hypothetical example yes they do.

But come on Lox where's the proportionality in that?

If Hamas, or whatever perfectly deniable mushroom splinter group operating under Hamas's jurisdiction, indiscriminately fire rockets at Israeli civilians from Gaza in the hope of killing as many Israeli's as possible. Then the proportionate response surely is for the Israeli's to fire a rocket or an artillery shell indiscriminately at civilians in Gaza in the hope of killing an equal number.

If it works for them, as it apparently has since the Israeli's unilateral exit from Gaza, then who are we to complain. Let them get on with it, until maybe, just maybe, they realise how fuckin' stupid they are being.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 11:33 AM

Roberto
"don't forget Israel was within its pre-six day war boundaries in 1967"
I agree entirely, and when those conflicts were over the areas in question became occupied territory and a contentuous issue. Since then Israel has sought to expand its sphere of influence and had done so agressively.
Whatever past disputes may have been about, it is now about occupied territory, and will only be resolved by recognising that fact.
Britain should have learned that fact in Ireland and 88 years later, still hasn't and the issue still hangs like a Sword of Damocles.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Roberto
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 12:06 PM

The problem, Jim, is that Israel can't get peace in exchange for land as long as Israel's opponents aim to completely cancel Israel, there are no boundaries that Hamas recognizes as Israel's home, they just want to destroy Israel as the Arabs Countries and the Palestinians tried to do in 1948 and 1967, to name two important moments, not the only ones. They don't want Israel and a Palestinian State to live in peace. They didn't accept it in 1947, they are not accepting it nowadays. I agree with you that Israel must cede some land that it conquered when Israel won wars against its opponents, but I'd like you to agree with me that this land must be ceded in exchange for peace and mutual recognition. Otherwise, it would happen again what happened when Israel left Gaza, and got in exchange the rockets fired against its civilians from the Gazan territory. Of course, I'm aware that there are many extremists in Israel as well, and I think that keeping building settlements on the land that I hope will become the state of Palestine is unacceptable and blind. But you must have somebody to make a deal with and sign a treaty: Israel is without this counterpart since it was born.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 12:19 PM

>>The point must be made again too, surely, that Gaza is also a democracy ~ which fairly recently held elections ~ and elected Hamas ~ who are the ones firing the rockets: which can accordingly presumably be said to emanate with the avowed and explicit support of the majority of the population of Gaza. Is it not ∴ at least arguable that they have thus brought the IDF retaliation on themselves?

Just putting the point for consideration<<

If it is a point worthy of consideration then it applies in much greater measure to Israel. The Jews in Israel are a democracy, and many of the settlers near Gaza, not to live peacefully but to claim the land and and to provoke a response.

Keeping in mind that large numbers of the Israeli electorate support aggressive action to to expand the state of Israel thinking that though God has promised a greater Israel it is this generation's job to seize occupied land.

Religious fanatics do not want peace and they don't care who is destroyed to get in their way. The all think that they are Joshua. Blowing the trumpets, tearing down the walls and killing all of the occupants of the land God has promised them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 12:32 PM

Lox, are you sure, "This is important to me as it clarifies that everyone agrees that the rockets are BAD." ?

I asked Jim maybe 8 times, "Are the rockets attacks wrong, and should they stop."

You try asking him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 12:42 PM

Keith, Cast out the log from your own eye before pointing out the mote in his.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 12:51 PM

It is not me saying I am better or as good.
Lox started this thread to establish if anyone here justifies the rockets.
Jim has previously refused to say they are wrong, or that they should stop.

Lox needs that answer.
Ask him Lox.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 12:52 PM

"Religious fanatics do not want peace and they don't care who is destroyed to get in their way."

I believe this statement can be applied to all parties involved in the mideast problem .... not just Israel.

Religious Belief and Violence in the Middle East

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:00 PM

So:

Israel cannot blockade Gaza to keep those rockets that rockets we all agree should not be launched at Israel from coming in.

Israel cannot target the launch sites of those rockets we all agree should not be launched at Israel from being launched.

Hama refuses to exercise it's responsibility to stop those rockets we all agree should not be launched at Israel from being launched.



Please tell me what Israel is permitted to do? These rockets, rockets we all agree should not be launched at Israel, are a threat and act of war. The Palestinians have never agreed to peace OR the existance of the state of Israel, with ANY borders.

If Israel stops all blockades and attacks on Gaza, and the Gazans continue the rockets, will ANY here agree that the Israelis should use those nuclear weapons and destroy Gaza? If not, what does the Israeli posseion of them matter???? Israel has been attacked multiple times, by enemies that have declared they will be satisfied with nothing less than the destruction of Israel. Those nuclear weapons, ( not all of which are in Israel proper) are Israel's ONLY insurance that any attack that destroys Israel will be so costly to the attacker that they will hesitate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 01:03 PM

True enough Bill. But in this neck of the woods it is generally not applied to both sides. And for this particular conflict, I happen to believe that religiously inspired Israeli expansionism is the main driving force.

On the other hand I believe that the main driving force in the conflict with Al Qaeda is Wahabbist fundamentalism directed at the west, funded in major part by the Saud family and their cronies to keep their own population from seeking equity.


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