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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Lox Date: 05 Aug 10 - 08:43 AM Keith, I have seen so much evidence that what you say is wrong that I am not going to bother giving it to you as it is so easy to find and there is so much of it. I am friends with residents of Gaza and in the same way that you and I talk about how we went to the prk today or had lunch yesterday, they talk about children and other civilians who have been shot or killed in other ways. I'm sorry to inform you that the IDF does deliberately target civilians and they do a whole lot else besides as they revel in crushing the lives of ordinary people. The state of Israel is deliberately meating out collective punishment on ALL the people of Gaza, and this includes the compassionless and brutal suppression of Gazans at large. From what I have seeen, the logic seems to be pretty much as Teribus has described - an eye for an eye -> a child for a child ... or even a hundred children for a soldier. Kieth, you exist in an isolated middle england world and have no comprehension of the subjects about which you speak. I'm very glad you are niethewr a judge nor a politician ... then again it is clear that you are neither for very clear reasons. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Aug 10 - 08:24 AM "You are a hypocrite and so is teribus because you say Hamas are wrong to kill covilians, but the IDF are justified" It is easier to call names than debate, right Lox? We all say it is wrong for Hamas to kill civilians, except Jim. I say that IDF is different in that it does not deliberately target civilians. Hamas does. Also IDF tries to minimise civilian casualties. By loading its rockets with metal shrapnel, Hamas tries to maximise them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Lox Date: 05 Aug 10 - 08:09 AM Wrong Kieth. All the points above are inspired dierectly or indirectly my my consistent argument that there is no justification for Killing civilians. Teribus disagrees, not on the basis that you claim to disagree on, but on the basis that it constitutes fair reprisal. Teribus has clearly stated that it is ok for Israel to Kill civilians as an act of equal and opposite retribution. If you kill my kids, then I have the right to kill your kids in return. In fact our responsibility is to protect all the kids as it has nothing to do with them. And if one of us fails in that obligation, it does not mean that the other is absolved of it, it just means that the one who honours it has a harder job to do. You are a hypocrite and so is teribus because you say Hamas are wrong to kill covilians, but the IDF are justified. Hypocrites and Bigots both. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Aug 10 - 07:42 AM Jim, it is not suggesting, it is STATING that the International Committee of The Red Cross, The Law Of armed Conflict, AND ME accept reluctantly that civilian casualties are sometimes not avoidable. Every effort should be made to minimise them, but sometimes it is unavoidable. Compare that with you, who will not condemn the deliberate murder of innocent people, and their children, by shrapnel packed missiles. Lox, you know he was making a point, and you are just trying to trivialise it because you can not answer it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Aug 10 - 07:36 AM The Israelis have deliberately killed hostages (according to you), they have taken hostages and used them as human shields, and they have taken part the massacre of up to 3,500 refugees - you really should be more careful when choosing your friends Keith. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Aug 10 - 07:16 AM Keith, you have just answered my question regarding the killing of hostages with: "Jim, my view on your "hostage" question is in line with the Law of Armed Conflict and is universally accepted. Except by you obviously." If that is not suggesting that it is admissible to kill hostages - your reply is meaningless. If not - the Israelis are again committing war crimes by deliberately killing hostages - which is it to be? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Lox Date: 05 Aug 10 - 07:10 AM Keith, This is the exchange. Me - "So If criminals living in Gaza try to murder innocent Israelis then Criminals in Israel are right to murder innocent Palestinians in Gaza." Teribus - "Yep that's right its called proportional response." That is as specific as it gets. If the writing is too small, buy some reading glasses. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Aug 10 - 07:03 AM Lox, if you think Terribus meant civilians are legitimate targets, it is you that is being idiotic! Only Hamas and their supporters think that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Aug 10 - 07:00 AM Jim, it is yet another lie to say I advocate the killing of civilians. Your worst so far. I just agree with Red Cross that civillians casualties should be minimised but accept that they can not always be avoided, especially when your oponent uses them as a shield. Hamas rockets are packed with ball bearings to MAXIMISE civiilian casualties. Premeditated and deliberate, that is murder. You alone will not say that they should stop. You alone advocate the murder of innocent civilians. No lie. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Lox Date: 05 Aug 10 - 06:58 AM Teribus, 1. You have failed to note who you are addressing. Your quotes come from Mousethief's post - not mine. So far consistent with you be a fucking idiot. 2. we exchanged the following views: Me - "So If criminals living in Gaza try to murder innocent Israelis then Criminals in Israel are right to murder innocent Palestinians in Gaza." You - "Yep that's right its called proportional response." In so saying, you are effectively arguing that all civilians in a military conflict, men women and children, are legitimate targets. This is also consistent with you being a fucking idiot. It is also consistent and serves as compelling evidence of you sadistic, compassionless heart and your blind, partisan mind. I remember a long time ago you warned me to "come loaded for bear" when debating with you. I responded "I'll come loaded for Bull" In fact, I should have come loaded for "fucking idiot" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Teribus Date: 05 Aug 10 - 06:37 AM 1. Jerusalem's municipal planning committee has granted approval for 40 new housing units in the Pisgat Zeevv settlement in occupied East Jerusalem. Pisgat Zeeve is a settlement of around 50,000 people located north of Jerusalem. What else were they going to use the land for? 2. As I stated above, Israel will not stop until they control the west bank and stop all attempts at a free Palestine. Of course they want Gaza. Lebanon will be next. They wany Gaza?? I thought that they had given it back years ago? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Teribus Date: 05 Aug 10 - 06:30 AM You (Keith A of Hertford) are the only one here actively supporting the deliberate killing of civilians here. says Jim Carroll. Hell as like. Most here are justifying the indiscriminate targeting and killing of civilians by one side and condemning similar actions by the other side purely because that side does it more effectively. They have been at this hammer and tongs for 60 years. The Palestinians say they are prepared to accept and are working towards a Two-State solution based upon pre-Six Day War Israeli Borders. This is in effect the solution that was offered to the Arabs by the UN in 1947. Had they accepted that then, there would have been no displaced people now demanding a "right of return" and thousands of lives would have been spared. Awkward question I know but an obvious one, "If it is acceptable now, why was it not acceptable then?" I mean really just what the F**k have they been playing at all this time? BUT hands up all those who think that if offered their Two-State Solution there would be peace in the Midle-East? NONE!! That's what I thought the answer would be. Middle-East peace process!! It should after 60 years be scrapped, the next person to be given the Nobel Peace Prize for anything to do with the Palestinian/Israeli situation should be the f**ker who succeeds in provoking these idiots into a massive all-or-nothing- no-man-left-standing confrontation to sort the business out once and for all and the world in general would be a damn sight better off. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Aug 10 - 06:16 AM http://www.icrc.org/Web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/5P8EX4/$File/LAW4_final.pdf |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Aug 10 - 06:13 AM Jim this advice to military is provided by the Red Cross. It explains my answer and my view. Do you regard red Cross as advocating the killing of civilians. If not, stop saying it about me. Take all feasible precautions to avoid or at least minimize death or injury to civilians or civilian property. Before actually launching an attack that might affect the civilian population, give advance warning, thus giving the population time to evacuate or at least take shelter. The warning must of course be genuine and effective. It must reach the civilians it was intended for. It must give them enough time to react. Warnings can be given over the radio or television, by dropping leaflets, or via the Internet. The attacker may dispense with the warning if circumstances do not permit, namely when the specific circumstances of the planned military operation do not make it possible to inform the defender because the aim of the operation could not then be achieved, for example if the element of surprise is crucial to the success of the whole operation. 10 - OPERATIONAL RESPONSIBILITY IN DEFENCE [ Slide 13] In addition to the above-mentioned prohibitions and limitations on the use of weapons and tactics applicable to all operations, those involved in planning or conducting defensive operations need to take into account the following requirements under the law of armed conflict. To the maximum extent feasible, civilians must be moved away from military objectives. The military should warn the civilian population in advance and assist with its evacuation. If possible, civilians should be taken to locations they know and which present no danger to them. Joint civil/military cooperation might be required to provide food, transport or even shelter for these civilians. Whenever possible, children should be evacuated with their families. Whenever possible, locate or set up your defensive positions well away from populated areas. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Aug 10 - 05:33 AM Sorry - that should read You are the only one here actively supporting the deliberate killing of civilians here. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Aug 10 - 05:31 AM Keith - you have now advocated that the killing of civilian hostages is fine by you - summing up your humanity perfectly. You are the only one here actively supporting the killing of civilians here. By your own logic, if it is ok "in line with the Law of Armed Conflict and is universally accepted" for heavily armed and trained Israeli soldiers to kill hostages, then presumably you can not possibly object to randomly fired rockets in retaliation to the long-term violence against them - do I detect a slight whiff of double standards here? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Teribus Date: 05 Aug 10 - 03:45 AM With a response like that teribus, the only "fucking idiot" around here is you. Whatever you say Lox, but on the other hand, I am not one of the fuckin' eedjits running around the world blowing things up and killing people that I do not know and have never met. But it is interesting to note your take on that. WHAT POSSIBLE REASON does any single Palestinian have to believe Israel will ever deal with him in good faith? Will ever allow him to have his own land, free from Israeli oversight and potential military action up to and including invasion? Tell your single Palestinian to go and have a chat with one of those nice Jordanians, or one of those nice Egyptians and ask how it worked out for them when they made their "land for peace deals". WHAT POSSIBLE REASON does any young Palestinian male have for anything other than despair? And despair makes people do foolish and desperate things. Despair? I thought all those young male Palestinians lived lives of eager anticipation, constantly buoyed up by all those promises of all the riches they have coming to them after they have slain all the Jews, or alternatively their thousands of servants and 72 virgins they will be given in the afterlife if they die a "martyr's" death. Were I a young Palestian male, or the father of one and one of those Hamas prats came up to me and suggested I, or my son, strap on a suicide vest to blow up a bus load of strangers I'd tell them in no uncertain terms "After you, show us how its done." Oh wait a minute I probably wouldn't be able to do that because they would kill my family in front of my eyes then hack off my head, with "protection" like that I'd tend to take my chances with the so-called enemy. You live in Gaza or the West Bank. For all your life and all the life of your parents, your country has been occupied by a foreign power which keeps it in subjection, while tearing off chunks and annexing it to itself. Would you be taking about the occupation that lasted from 1948 to 1967? As far as I am aware Gaza was handed back intact years ago, small detail I know but it helps to get things right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Aug 10 - 03:25 AM Jim, my view on your "hostage" question is in line with the Law of Armed Conflict and is universally accepted. Except by you obviously. You said "And you want us to condemn Palastinian rocket attacks" No I do not. Everyone else already has. Only you justify them. The old joke about beating your wife is that there is no option to say that you never started beating her. The rockets started years ago. Have they stopped rocketing civilians? No. And it is not a joke. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: mousethief Date: 05 Aug 10 - 01:34 AM What hope, what shred of evidence, do the Palestinians have that Israel wants to allow the Palestinians to live within their own borders in peace? When Israel chips away at the West Bank and East Jerusalem? When Israel destroys all infrastructure in Gaza and then blockades any building supplies from coming in? When Israel allows Lebanese militia to run amok in Palestinian refugee camps, murdering at will? When the little shit that allowed that IS THEN ELECTED PRIME MINISTER?! WHAT POSSIBLE REASON does any single Palestinian have to believe Israel will ever deal with him in good faith? Will ever allow him to have his own land, free from Israeli oversight and potential military action up to and including invasion? WHAT POSSIBLE REASON does any young Palestinian male have for anything other than despair? And despair makes people do foolish and desperate things. You're 25 years old. You live in Gaza or the West Bank. For all your life and all the life of your parents, your country has been occupied by a foreign power which keeps it in subjection, while tearing off chunks and annexing it to itself. It takes away your home, destroys your only way of making a living. You have never been able to travel 20 miles in your own country without being stopped and checked and inspected by agents of the foreign power. From time to time the foreign power destroys all the homes on your street because somebody lobbed a homemade rocket from your neighbourhood into the territory of the foreign power. Gee, why would you feel outraged? What possible reason could you have to want to retaliate? Why couldn't you plainly see that if you just left the foreign power alone, it would all come right and they'd magically turn into nice people, give all the land back, smile and pat you all on the back and let you live your own lives without constant fear of terror(ism) from themselves? And still people say that whatever Israel wants to do "to defend itself", is okay. Israel has gone way past "defending itself" since 1948 and just doesn't seem likely to curb in its avarice or cupidity any time soon. Oh, and should any f***heads want to call me an anti-semite, go pleasure yourself with a rusted farm implement. I will NOT leave a terrorist regime uncriticized because of evils done to the Jews over the last 2000 years up to and including today. Two wrongs NEVER make a right, no matter how wrong the wrongs are. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 05 Aug 10 - 12:28 AM "Maybe the solution to the whole affair would be for somebody to discover oil there" Well there are allegations - I prefer not to say rumours - that there may be neat stuff somewhere in the south, under & near the dead sea... "Israel founded Hamas to act as a bogeyman organization" Sadly, this is almost believable - taking into account what happened in Afghanistan and the subsequent 'flowerings' of groups set up for the political convenience of another group, that then turn against their original founders.... :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jack the Sailor Date: 05 Aug 10 - 12:15 AM >>>Not being an expert on Jewish religious philosophy, I can't say whether THEY believe THAT, but I CAN say that a rather large number of followers of His alleged Son DO - and as far as they are concerned - bring it on baby! << No, Armagedon is New Testament stuff. But there is something in their book about Israel stretching from Egypt to the Euphrates. Look at that on the map and try to imagine the amount of war that it would take to make that happen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 05 Aug 10 - 12:08 AM "a massive, unaimed bombardment of the entire area" You mean WP everywhere - oh they wouldn't do that,... eh, what? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 05 Aug 10 - 12:06 AM "The current situation seems like a slow march to WWIII, It is not in Israel's interest to hasten that. " Bzzztttt! Wrong! If you believe that your special invisible magical sky fairy is gonna destroy the whole kit and kaboodle when he wants to any way, and take the true believers away to a much nicer place for ever and ever and ever - then Bring it on Baby!! Not being an expert on Jewish religious philosophy, I can't say whether THEY believe THAT, but I CAN say that a rather large number of followers of His alleged Son DO - and as far as they are concerned - bring it on baby! And they seem to have the ear of those who have their finger on "The Big Red Button To End Everything In Flaming Destruction" - which will "Give Him A Hand!"! :-O |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jack the Sailor Date: 04 Aug 10 - 10:09 PM Certainly in the the conflict under discussion proportional retaliation is not possible. The Palestinians do not have the ability for it. The Israelis do not have the discipline. But that was my original response to Teribus using that term. There was certainly nothing proportional in what Israel did to Lebanon over two soldiers. The responses from Israel are not proportional. They are terribly lopsided. And if the Israelis never again shelled or shot another Palestinian, the occupation and theft of land and water is a terrible provocation by itself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Ed T Date: 04 Aug 10 - 09:55 PM I suggest that the concept of "proportional retaliation" in conflict is a myth, and rarely seen. More likely, each side choses to punish the other side, in a significant manner, to discourage the other side from repeating an action of agression, or to eliminate their ability to repeat the agression. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Ed T Date: 04 Aug 10 - 09:50 PM "An eye for an eye is pretty much definition of proportional response is it not? The response is equal to the offense. You take one eye, one eye is taken from you". The term, (that goes far back in time) in its purist form may seem to mean what you suggest. But, one should not assume that your "proportional" interpretation is shared. I expect there could be, and likely are, many different definitions, and interpretations....depending on a perspective. For example, it is likely that a historic leader may interpret the value of "his eye" or the lives of "his siblings" as being greater than the eye or sibling of others in that society. Historically, eye for eye revenge has seen hugely disproportinarte retaliation. Some have also put forward, that in some of our current Western societies, that the perceived value of a citizen of one country is seen as much greater then the value of a citizen of another. It does not take much tinking to come up with examples. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 04 Aug 10 - 09:42 PM Monday, August 2, 2010. Jerusalem's municipal planning committee has granted approval for 40 new housing units in the Pisgat Zeevv settlement in occupied East Jerusalem. Pisgat Zeeve is a settlement of around 50,000 people located north of Jerusalem. The United Nations considers it illegal. Israelis gnaw at Palestinian land bit by bit, a little here, a little there, and will not stop until they gobble up the whole. The committee approved 1,600 new homes in the Ramat Shlomo settlement in Marchh, hours after Joe Biden, US vice-president, landed in Israel for talks. Biden rebukrd Israel, but the US has done nothing to safeguard Palestinian rights. One step forward, a half-step back, two steps forward, a little talk, then forward again .... As I stated above, Israel will not stop until they control the west bank and stop all attempts at a free Palestine. Of course they want Gaza. Lebanon will be next. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Lox Date: 04 Aug 10 - 09:25 PM Keep it coming folks ... The number of people who support the killing of innocents is rising. Who else wants to join the thugs and let their vile character hang out for the world to see? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Lox Date: 04 Aug 10 - 09:14 PM With a response like that teribus, the only "fucking idiot" around here is you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jack the Sailor Date: 04 Aug 10 - 08:50 PM I said that eye for an eye IS proportional response, not that it calls for it. An eye for an eye is pretty much definition of proportional response is it not? The response is equal to the offense. You take one eye, one eye is taken from you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Ed T Date: 04 Aug 10 - 08:44 PM Curious: Where is it writen that could honestly be said to be "recognized" that: "An eye for an eye" calls for a proportional response? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jack the Sailor Date: 04 Aug 10 - 08:28 PM >>Yep that's right its called proportional response<< An eye for an eye is proportional response. Destroying a country for two soldiers is called going apeshit and is anything but proportional. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Teribus Date: 04 Aug 10 - 08:12 PM Teribus, So If criminals living in Gaza try to murder innocent Israelis then Criminals in Israel are right to murder innocent Palestinians in Gaza. Yep that's right its called proportional response. And after what? 60 odd years you would have thought that both sides would have worked something out but WFT!!! They haven't - Guess they're on a slow learning curve. Either that or they are both sets of complete and utter fucking idiots, whose arguments should not be allowed to fuck up the rest of the world. And they should be told that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Aug 10 - 07:54 PM "Straight answer to your question, in these extreme circumstances, some civilian casualties are acceptable." So there we have your support for Israeli policy in a nutshell - it is acceptable to kill hostages; doesn't that make the handful of victim so Palestinian rocket-fire also acceptable? Brucie's silence on the Sabra Shatila massacres speaks volumes on his attitude to Israeli atrocities in taking part in the massacre of probably a few thousand refugees. Chemical attacks and the bombing of hospitals and schools and the wall and the ghettos and the attempts at starvation and acts of piracy and the evictions and the seizure of land, and the ghettoisation........ and all the rest. And you want us to condemn Palastinian rocket attacks - just about the only retaliation to all the shit thrown at them??? Where's the form and where do I sign? And btw Keith - if you are still unable to read and answer in my reply, can I suggest a local nightschool class - and do you still beat your wife - yes or no? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Ed T Date: 04 Aug 10 - 07:54 PM "...it doesn't need to be "aggressive action" to evoke a violent response" Another good point, that is demonstrated through the history of conflict. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Aug 10 - 07:39 PM The attack on the aid convey demonstrates that it doesn't need to be "aggressive action" to evoke a violent response. If those Palestinians who are engaged in trying to turn the resistance against Israel into a campaign of nonviolent resistance can succeed in doing so, as I hope they will be able to do, I assume that, as in other nonviolent struggles against oppressive regimes, there will be a sustained effort to break nonviolent discipline and many deaths. Violence is the friend of oppressors, whoever uses it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: bobad Date: 04 Aug 10 - 07:34 PM "In fact, I am puzzled why people far away from the conflict seem so surprised." I'm not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Ed T Date: 04 Aug 10 - 07:28 PM "Ed T you are leaving out that the UN brokered and through pressure forced that peace and that the retaliation leaving much of Lebanon in ruins, killing thousands of civilians and creating 1.5 million refugees was retaliation for the deaths of two. just two, Israeli combatants". Maybe, peace was brokered by the UN, maybe it was after people had enough of the mess and sought a way out. But, it is clear that a halt was only after Israel did alot of damage, human, property and infrastructure. Regardless of anyones take on what caused it (I am sure there are many differing versions), and if it is related, the message is clear....mess with Israel and you will pay dearly in retaliation. In that climate, is it not a given that if you send rockets into Israel, regardless of their damage, you, and your citizens should expect to pay dearly. I suspect Georgia should have seen the result when they took agressive action against a greater power, Russia. The history books are full of lessons some never learn, including Japan in WW2 (I recall couple of nasty US blasts, with significant losses). Maybe in a similar situation, I would take similar rebel action? But , with the lessons of history, I suspect I would have more common sense than to cause that level of suffering to my country and people. Regardless, there should be no surprise that a response would be significant when one takes agressive action against Israel. In fact, I am puzzled why people far away from the conflict seem so surprised. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Aug 10 - 06:48 PM "Most people say..." I would accept that the media in our countries tend to take Israeli press briefings as a reliable source of information on stuff like that. But I suspect that "most people" in most countries tend not to do so. It could well be that some of those organising the firing of rockets do so in the expectation of producing responses by the IDF which will help make Israel seen as a pariah state. And equally one of the motives for Israeli shelling, bombings and assassinations is very likely to provoke the responses which will help ensure that Palestinians are seen as terrorists. That's how the people who fear peace, on both sides, ensure that it never has a chance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jack the Sailor Date: 04 Aug 10 - 06:33 PM >>When rockets from Lebanon reigned down on Israel through many campaigns, retaliatory destruction resulted, from the greater military power. When these stopped, Israel stopped retaliation...halting attacking, killing and destroying Lebanon. << Ed T you are leaving out that the UN brokered and through pressure forced that peace and that the retaliation leaving much of Lebanon in ruins, killing thousands of civilians and creating 1.5 million refugees was retaliation for the deaths of two. just two, Israeli combatants. Ed, you seem to have guts and gumption. If your city had been under occupation and siege from before your birth I'd wager that you would be fighting that occupation rather than just sitting and taking it. I recon that most of us would. I am not saying that violence is justified in any way. But it is part of human nature, especially among young men. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jack the Sailor Date: 04 Aug 10 - 06:25 PM >>Most people say that nothing happens in Gaza without Hamas say so.<< Most people do not say that. People who cannot comprehend the problems of governing 1.6 million people without any civilian infrastructure might say that. You are implying that Hamas is better at stopping crime than any western country has ever been without the benefit of laws or a police force. Come on Keith, you can do better than that. My sources by the way are Hamas spokes people and a UN official I heard interviewed. But Ed T's point is well taken. As long as the Flotilla's are focusing world attention on the plight of the Palestinians, there IS NO reason for Hamas to fire the rockets. And to believe that they have full control of the area with the might of Israel's IDF constantly disrupting what command and control they have and The Mossad constantly taking pot shots at their leaders is nothing short of a fairy tale. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Ed T Date: 04 Aug 10 - 06:00 PM "Box up three times the population of Washington DC in twice the area, starve them, destroy Police and other civic infrastructure, invade every couple of years and knock the crap out of other civilian infrastructure" But, much of this seems to be a result of the years of distrust... at least partially initiated by suicide attacks, and rocket attacks on Israel. When rockets from Lebanon reigned down on Israel through many campaigns, retaliatory destruction resulted, from the greater military power. When these stopped, Israel stopped retaliation...halting attacking, killing and destroying Lebanon. If, in comparison, Taiwan started to shoot rockets into civilian, or otherwise, China, what would one expect the result to be? Would you expect China to negotiate, or shoot back in ruthless force, to encourage it to cease? Would China likely offer citizens of Taiwan land and increased access to the mainland? If you answer is yes, dream on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 Aug 10 - 05:58 PM Jack, "As far as I know Hamas to the degree that it is an organized government is not currently firing rockets into Israel" You have special inside knowledge Jack? Most people say that nothing happens in Gaza without Hamas say so. But what do they know? Right Jack. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jack the Sailor Date: 04 Aug 10 - 05:47 PM As far as I know Hamas to the degree that it is an organized government is not currently firing rockets into Israel. The freedom flotilla has shown them that peaceful protest is more effective. But box up three times the population of Washington DC in twice the area, starve them, destroy Police and other civic infrastructure, invade every couple of years and knock the crap out of other civilian infrastructure and you are bound to drive a number of young men crazy enough to exact any revenge they can regardless of the retaliation. I would wager that many of them feel that Israel will continue to subjugate and attack no matter what they do so they may as well get their licks in. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 04 Aug 10 - 05:45 PM Good Post, Ed. Think that they can figure it out? GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Ed T Date: 04 Aug 10 - 05:33 PM If the Hammas group has only rockets that can cause little harm to Israel, (other than sow fear into the population) what is the purpose and or intended benefit of shooting them off at Israel? Lessons of history shows that Israel will retaliate in to a much higher level. Surely they know they cannot defeat Israel's military might? Could the purpose be to seek considerable reaction from Israel? What would the benefit of having Gaza homes and population impacted, from the retaliation, as we have seen? Could they be using the impacted Gaza population to garner intervention, or sympathy from supporters, neighbours and the broader World community? Could they stimulating Israel to acts that would contribute to a loss of credibility? It is unlikely that they would be seeking friendship from Israel, or they believe they can win a direct military conflict with Israel. What is the purpose of sending these rockets into the civilian population of a more powerful neighbour, one that you do not have a good relationship with already? Can someone explain the intended purpose? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 Aug 10 - 05:20 PM Jack, "In this case "legal force" is what the people with the biggest guns say it is. No more, no less. " Wrong Jack. It is about complying with The Law Of Armed Conflict." McGrath, "If they were "doing what they could to minimise innocent casualties", far fewer innocent casualties would have been killed." How can you make that judgement Kevin? How would you answer someone who says,"If they were not "doing what they could to minimise innocent casualties", far more innocents would have been killed? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jack the Sailor Date: 04 Aug 10 - 05:12 PM Israel doesn't want to wipe the Palestinians off the face of the earth. Just out of the West Bank. Prove me wrong. That's easy, they also want Gaza and parts of Syria and Lebanon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: mousethief Date: 04 Aug 10 - 05:08 PM Israel doesn't want to wipe the Palestinians off the face of the earth. Just out of the West Bank. Prove me wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jack the Sailor Date: 04 Aug 10 - 04:52 PM Israel goes way beyond defending itself and attempting to "wipe the Palestinians off the map WOULD draw a military reaction from the rest of the world. At the very least the withdrawl of US aid and the imposition of UN sanctions against trade would make their state much less viable. The current situation seems like a slow march to WWIII, It is not in Israel's interest to hasten that. |
