BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 07:57 AM

He has made 6 posts on the subject since then!
Did you miss ALL of them?

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 07:44 AM

Keith,
This is what Mousethief said and this is what I agree too.
If you are trying to score points, make sure you are aiming at the right dartboard.

What hope, what shred of evidence, do the Palestinians have that Israel wants to allow the Palestinians to live within their own borders in peace? When Israel chips away at the West Bank and East Jerusalem? When Israel destroys all infrastructure in Gaza and then blockades any building supplies from coming in? When Israel allows Lebanese militia to run amok in Palestinian refugee camps, murdering at will? When the little shit that allowed that IS THEN ELECTED PRIME MINISTER?!

WHAT POSSIBLE REASON does any single Palestinian have to believe Israel will ever deal with him in good faith? Will ever allow him to have his own land, free from Israeli oversight and potential military action up to and including invasion?

WHAT POSSIBLE REASON does any young Palestinian male have for anything other than despair? And despair makes people do foolish and desperate things.

You're 25 years old. You live in Gaza or the West Bank. For all your life and all the life of your parents, your country has been occupied by a foreign power which keeps it in subjection, while tearing off chunks and annexing it to itself. It takes away your home, destroys your only way of making a living. You have never been able to travel 20 miles in your own country without being stopped and checked and inspected by agents of the foreign power. From time to time the foreign power destroys all the homes on your street because somebody lobbed a homemade rocket from your neighbourhood into the territory of the foreign power.

Gee, why would you feel outraged? What possible reason could you have to want to retaliate? Why couldn't you plainly see that if you just left the foreign power alone, it would all come right and they'd magically turn into nice people, give all the land back, smile and pat you all on the back and let you live your own lives without constant fear of terror(ism) from themselves?

And still people say that whatever Israel wants to do "to defend itself", is okay. Israel has gone way past "defending itself" since 1948 and just doesn't seem likely to curb in its avarice or cupidity any time soon.

Oh, and should any f***heads want to call me an anti-semite, go pleasure yourself with a rusted farm implement. I will NOT leave a terrorist regime uncriticized because of evils done to the Jews over the last 2000 years up to and including today. Two wrongs NEVER make a right, no matter how wrong the wrongs are.
"Shall I piss off now Jim? "
Please do
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 07:11 AM

McGrath,
Another fell on Sderot the next day, hitting a therapy centre for disabled children.
These rockets are not home made.
They came in through the tunnels.
Hamas controls the tunnels and taxes all imports through them.
People who defy Hamas in Gaza end up dead.
The rockets were not fired in defiance of Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 06:54 AM

Who are "they"?

"On Friday a Grad Katyusha rocket fired from Gaza landed in Ashkelon, causing no injuries. It is not clear who was behind the firing. It is reasonable to assume it was not Hamas but one of the rogue organizations in the Gaza Strip identified with World Jihad or Al-Qaida.

In retaliation, Israel attacked three Hamas targets, killing a senior Gaza Strip operative.

Israel holds the Hamas government responsible for every firing incident, even if the organization did not carry it out and is not behind it."

From   Haaretz.com Sat, August 07, 2010

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 06:39 AM

No Jim. he said they should stop unconditionally.
And you agreed "entirely"

You had not bothered to read it had you!
Just as you did not read Emma's, and duplicated it!

But I am the eejit, right?

Shall I piss off now Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 05:17 AM

Never said otherwise - it's just how it is stopped - that is what this is about. Abject surrender isn't one of my options, nor is it one of Mousethief's unless I have misjudged him - if I have, then I disagree.
Point scoring, no matter how pettily and distortedly, really is your thing, isn't it?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 04:47 AM

Jim, Mousethief said,"I deplore the killing of innocent people. The rockets into Israel, and the suicide bombers, and any other form of attacks on Israeli civilians, have got to stop. Period. "

And you agree with him "asolutely"
Welcome to our world.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 03:55 AM

Or, stop the murderous rocketing and start negotiating.
It worked for Egypt and Jordan.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 03:31 AM

Mousethief - agree entirely.
Both sides of the conflict are fighting a battle which involves them using dirty tactics (as did the Americans and VietNamese, The Brits and the Irish, Indians, Kenyans, Cypriots or whoever they might happen to have been fighting in order to keep colonised - even the Jewish people themselves fighting to establish a country.
Committing war crimes and complaining that the other side is doing the same, whether it be true or not, is like Goliath whining that the stones David is using in his sling are too big and contravene the articles of hand-to-hand combat.
What we have here is Palestinian rockets versus tanks, planes, cluster bombs, chemical weapons, mass-murder, deliberately used hostages as human shields, a blockade, a wall... all at the disposal of the Israelis and used freely against militants and civilians alike, to annex territory.
Suggesting that the Palestinians give up the barrage is a demand of immediate surrender and so far only one eejit has suggested that this would stop the seziure of territory and bring the Israelis to the conference table, every other Israeli supporter is demanding that the Palestinians throw in the towel and bow to Israel's superior strength - simple as that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 03:04 AM

Mousethief, not sure.
Jim, I ask for evidence of war crimes and you just crumple and resort to abuse.
For you, the belief in Israel's evil has to be a matter of faith.

You keep on about chemical weapons use, meaning wp smoke.
I have produced hard evidence that the type used is not a chemical weapon, is legal under all protocols, agreements and conventions, and is not intended to inflict casualties.

You have produced nothing to support your view, and you never will because only on planet Jim is it regarded as a chemical weapon.

This thread is about current events in Gaza, That is why you are the only person talking about 30 year old events in Lebanon!
And, when I humour you and give you my honest views (repeated from 29th July) you just tell me to piss off!

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 07 Aug 10 - 02:42 AM

Since nobody has risen to contradict or disprove them, I will take it that all her accept my points as stated.

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 05:39 PM

If you can't sort out war crimes from these last two threads you're thicker than I took you for - you can only repeat things so often.
And once again you are attempting to confine a thread into your own narrow band of perceived knowledge.
As I said before, piss of, this time without the please.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 05:22 PM

Jim,
"You have never once acknowledged, to condem or dispute, the atrocities and war crimes committed by the Israelis, and appear to wish to proceed with the blame game."

This thread is about the rockets Jim.
How can you ask for proof they are targeted at civilians?
They are aimed at ordinary towns full of ordinary people, and most of them hit those towns.
They are designed to kill and maim.

How can anyone acknowledge atrocities and war crimes they are not aware of?
You presumably are aware of some.
Put them up, one at a time, and see if they stand up.
But not in this thread obviously.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 05:01 PM

"Area mass bombardment antipersonnel rockets are prohibited by the Geneva conventions, as being specifically targetted at the civilian population. "
And it is yet to be proved that they have been 'deliberately targeted' or are capable of being with the weapons at hand.
Anything the Palestinians might be guilty of, the Israeilis have exeeded ten-fold
"I know you think that children's birthday parties and discos are military targets,"
In that case, I know that you are in favour of the massacre of between 800 and 3,000 refugees. Don't be silly, and please don't sink to Keith's level - one eejit per thread is quite enough.
It seems our basic differences are that I would like to see the conflict resolved fairly while you want 'the other side' to surrender and 'fess up' to all the atrocities.
You have never once acknowledged, to condem or dispute, the atrocities and war crimes committed by the Israelis, and appear to wish to proceed with the blame game.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 04:47 PM

"In addition to direct attacks against civilians, international humanitarian law prohibits indiscriminate attacks. These are attacks "of a nature to strike military objectives and civilians or civilian objects without distinction." Examples of indiscriminate attacks are those that "are not directed at a specific military objective" or that use means that "cannot be directed at a specific military objective."[37]
One form of prohibited indiscriminate attack is area bombardment. Any attack, whether by aerial bombardment or other means, that treats as a single military objective a number of clearly separated and distinct military objectives located in a city, town, village, or other area containing a similar concentration of civilians and civilian objects is regarded as an indiscriminate attack and prohibited. Similarly, if a combatant launches an attack against a populated area without attempting to aim properly at a military target, it would amount to an indiscriminate attack.[38]
"

So Israel, which targets the launch site, is accused of violating what Hamas, which launches area bombardment rockets, does violate with every rocket??

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 04:43 PM

Or do you now claim that launching rockets against Israel is NOT a "military purpose"???


I know you think that children's birthday parties and discos are military targets, since the Palestinians have attacked those with no protests from you. But I hope that you are not saying "All Israelis are military targets, and all Palestinians ( regardless of their actions) are civilians."

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 04:40 PM

"The keystone of the law regulating conduct of hostilities is the principle of distinction, which requires parties to a conflict to distinguish at all times between combatants and civilians. Civilians and civilian objects may not be attacked, and operations may be directed against only military objectives.[32]
Military objectives are combatants and those objects which "by their nature, location, purpose or use make an effective contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture or neutralization, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military advantage."[33] In general it is prohibited to direct attacks against what are by their nature civilian objects, such as homes and apartments, places of worship, hospitals, schools, or cultural monuments, unless they are being used for military purposes. An area of land can constitute a military objective if it fulfills the above criteria.[34]"

http://www.hrw.org/en/node/10911/section/5

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 04:39 PM

"Since when have rockets been judged war crimes any more than any other weapon?"

As BB said, it is deliberately striking at civilians that is the crime.

"our parrot friend tells us that civilain casualties are to be expected in war,"

That is true. But you must try to minimise them and you must not deliberately cause them.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 04:33 PM

Operation Cast Lead (December 27, 2008 - January 18, 2009) was launched after 8 years of relentless terrorist attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip (including 3 years following the 2005 complete disengagement and pullout from Gaza) by Hamas and its associated organizations. The links below provide a background for the operation as well as video documentation that illustrates how Hamas initiates attacks using human shields in the midst of heavily populated areas and use hospitals, schools, and mosques for storage of ammunition and to purposefully attack Israeli civilians. Much has been written on the use of "disproportional" force; typically these are one-sided calls aiming at Israel to cease fire but not directing the same calls to the terrorists. While the loss of uninvolved civilians is regrettable a country has a right (indeed an obligation) to defend its citizens.



Some critics (including a number of prominent Israeli writers and columnists) have expressed opposition to the use of force simply because Israel is known to be "strong." The position of such critics (even if in some - and only in rare cases - is well intended), reveals a complete moral bankruptcy and short-sightedness that verges on irresponsibility (when well-intended) and malice (when ill-intended). After all, what exactly does it mean to be "strong" if power cannot be used? Why have a military if it is never to be used? To negotiate is admirable but where is the limit a society should place on the lethal mixture of not having a negotiating partner and yet having 8 years of bombardment on a large portion of its civilian populations? How much restraint should a state exercise against terrorists who use human shields to shoot at civilians? Do nothing because uninvolved will be hurt? If so, why not just acquiesce to the terrorist and let them have whatever they want? What can Israel negotiate with Hamas whose declared goal is the absolute annihilation of all of Israel? Or should such negotiations be carried out with Iran for which Hamas and Hizbullah serve as proxies? After all, Iran carries the nuclear threat with the same goal and not just against Israel.



Because issues of morality and justification are integral to policies that democracies formulate and carry out, it is important to shed some light on the legal and moral aspects in connection with this operation. The fact that democracies try to set high standards to avoid hurting civilians does not seem to impress the critics. Short of Israel committing suicide perhaps nothing will. Perhaps even that may not placate those who vow to kill Israel as they will claim that they were deprived of the opportunity to do so themselves. Therefore it is important to point out the critics' false morality on one hand and the justification for the operation on the other. The articles by Dershowitz, Friedmann, Gerson, Harari, Kramer, and Yemini highlight important elements of legitimacy, legality, and moral justification.

http://www.cjgsu.net/initiatives/Terrorism%20and%20Warfare.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 04:31 PM

"The damage caused by these rockets is evident in a series of photos taken by Lenny Maschkowski, a professional independent photo-journalist from Haifa, who has documented the impact of the rockets: "It's amazing how far these little ball bearings go," he says. "They have a deadly radius of around 600 meters [some 1,950 feet]." His work provides a chilling reality to the damage and horror inflicted by these rockets. "

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 04:30 PM

"More than 25,000 terror attacks on Israel alone (September 2000 - May 2006) killed 1,103 Israelis and injured 7,520."


So, since that is almost as many as the attack on Gaza, Israel has the right YOU give Hamas- to violate the law without being held to account.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 04:26 PM

2. Said rockets are by themselves war crimes -
"Since when have rockets been judged war crimes any more than any other weapon?"

Area mass bombardment antipersonnel rockets are prohibited by the Geneva conventions, as being specifically targetted at the civilian population.

4. Israel has the right to defend it's citizens by military attacks against those rockets, which are prohibited by international law.

"Are rockets prohibited by international law - our parrot friend tells us that civilain casualties are to be expected in war, and this certainly hasn't bothered the Israelis too much."

THIS TYPE of rocket is prohibited.

You seem to think civilian casualties are ok, when they are Israelis. I know that can't be true, from your statments, so it must be deliberate ignorance that lets you post like this.

Those civlian casualties DON'T bother Hamas very much- or they would not violate international law to lauch their illegal rockets from schools, hospitals , and such ( which is a war crime I do not see you making ANY call to prosecute)

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 04:15 PM

1. EVERYONE agrees the Hamas rockets are bad.
Yes, as are the chemical weapons dropped on Gaza and the destruction and killing that took place there by a far superior force with access to far more lethal and effective weapons.
2. Said rockets are by themselves war crimes -
Since when have rockets been judged war crimes any more than any other weapon?
3. The use of civilians to shield military operations ( such as launching the rockets by Hamas) is a war crime.
If that is true yes, but we only have the Israeli word that this is the case. Not so with the similar Israeli action in deliberately using captured Palestinians as human shields
4. Israel has the right to defend it's citizens by military attacks against those rockets, which are prohibited by international law.
Are rockets prohibited by international law - our parrot friend tells us that civilain casualties are to be expected in war, and this certainly hasn't bothered the Israelis too much.
The Palestinians have an equal right to defend their citizens, especially against an enemy with the Israeli track record of slaughter and destruction - including deliberate mass murder (which you have yet to acknowledge).
So where does that leave us - with a political problem to solve rather than demanding that one side lays down their (somewhat meagre) arms
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 03:55 PM

No McGrath.
If I do not believe it is a terrorist state, what evidence can I put up?
The evidence HAS to come from those who DO think it a terrorist state.
They just have to give one irrefutable example of Israeli state terrorism.

Like you earlier saying it is not true they act in self defence.
I can only give examples of them acting in self defence.
Why did you not give some examples of them not acting in self defence?

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 03:39 PM

All we could do to challenge your view would be to list none terrorist things they have done.

A bit like saying thgat it's wrong to decrib ethe Yorkshire Ripper as "a murderer" because he also did lots of other things as well as murdering women.

Terrorism is a technique which is adopted, when it suit,s them by a range of organisations, which also do a lot of other things. Including governments. Including the Israeli government.

Obviously not everything that the Israeli government does involves terrorism - but then the same is true of Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 03:11 PM

So, let me see...

1. EVERYONE agrees the Hamas rockets are bad.

2. Said rockets are by themselves war crimes

3. The use of civilians to shield military operations ( such as launching the rockets by Hamas) is a war crime.

4. Israel has the right to defend it's citizens by military attacks against those rockets, which are prohibited by international law.





And the conclusion is that ISRAEL is wrong when it targets those launchers, and civilians are killed??????????

And the conclusion is that ISRAEL cannot blockade Gaza to prevent those rockets from being brought in ( and then uased against Israeli civilians)??????

WTF?

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 03:00 PM

So, you think that everyone except me believes Israel to be a terrorist state?

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 02:47 PM

"....we could then challenge."
Keith, would you please refrain from speaking for other people.
Others may disagree with me but you appear to be the only one who doesn't understand what I am saying.
The royal 'we' is the perogative of H.M. and Mrs Thatcher - you appear to be on your own.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 02:28 PM

Jim,
"I believe Israel to be a terrorist state (no-one here as put up a serious challenge to that view) "

All we could do to challenge your view would be to list none terrorist things they have done.
And that would be silly Jim.

YOU need to put up some evidence for your view which we could then challenge.

Evidence has been in short supply from your side so far.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 01:46 PM

Roberto - don't necessarily agree, but will happily change the term to anti-Arab - the argument still applies.
Keith
Piss off please
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 01:44 PM

Greg - I take your last posting to be an ironic one - a little to subtle to be effective in my opinion.
I believe Israel's aggression needs to be opposed. I would prefer that opposion to be peaceful, through economic and political means. For the reasons I have stated, that has not happened and the atrocities continue.
I do not believe, as has been incredibly naívly suggested, that the cessation of the only present opposition to the Israeli's expansioninst gallop would bring them scurrying to the conference table - far from it - it would be regarded a triumph and it would be a victory for the 'might is right' philosophy they have adopted.
It would put the Palestinian people at risk and the fact that it is a nuclear power, it would put the world at risk though its possible pursuit of further territory.
I believe Israel to be a terrorist state (no-one here as put up a serious challenge to that view) and the fact that it is heavily influenced by fundamentilist religion, makes it just as much of a threat as any of the muslim states.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Roberto
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 01:24 PM

Jim, I haven't made any accusation of anti-semitism in my last post you answer to, but I've remarked that it is a futile word game to say that the Arabs can't by definition be anti-semitic because they are semitic. The Jerusalem Mufti didn't let your word game frighten him, and gave an enthusiastic help to Hitler in his extreme anti-Judaic, or anti-semitic, delirium. Anti-Judaism and Anti-Semitism are synonymous terms, you must know their history and not play with words and deny the facts behind the words.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 01:21 PM

Jim, you keep on about those 30 year old massacres.
What relevance have they to "Hamas rockets fired into Israel"??

I did state my view on them, to you, on 21st July.
I repeat,

The massacres were truly deplorable. Israeli forces should have intervened to prevent them. They were disgraced by it.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 01:17 PM

The rocketing of civilians is a war crime and is not defensive.

I also believe that those who do it think they are justified.
I do not have to support or defend the rockets myself because of that.

Jim defends and supports the rockets.
He just said so again.
You have your answer.
No one except Jim supports or defends the rockets.
He does both.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 12:55 PM

Roberto;
My point on your persistant accusation of 'Anti-semitism' was that if the response of racism is raised whenever we criticise anybody outside our own race or culture, we would be forced to ignore the behavior of all the monsters of the world - Stalin (Russian), Mugabi (African), Pinochet (Latin American), Duvalier (Latin American), Bush (American)... you name them, we can't touch them for fear of being branded racists by people like you.
So far this has been about what the Isralis have done and are still doing - not their ethnic origins.
Some of the greatest and most vociferous critics of the Israelis have been Jewish, including several of my friends. Are they anti Semitic?
Is the American Zionist newspaper which exposed the viciousness of the incursion and the use of phosphorus, anti-Semitic; or the Rabbis helping and siding with the people of Gaza? Is Mordacai Vannannu, who alerted the world to the fact that this terrorist state possesses nuclear capability, making it a world threat (and went to jail for his trouble) an anti-Semite?
Anti Semitism is a disease which is strengthened by the over and incorrect use of the term, plesae do not be one of those who assist it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 12:46 PM

As you see, it is very unfair to accuse Jim Carroll of supporting the firing of the rockets. What he has clearly just stated is that he doesn't think they should stop firing them. There is a difference, apparently....which of course may be too subtle for everyone to spot.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 12:33 PM

Lox, please do not get sucked into the ramblings of this abusive brain-dead, this is not a personality clash, it's a discussion. If you want to see an earlier performance of his, look at previous threads he has despoiled.
I have never at any time supported the deliberate targeting of civilians.
I am unhappy at the idea that anybody should kill anybody, but I believe that, as the bombardment is the only opposition shown to an aggressive terrorist state, the west having opted out due to self interest, to cease the bambardment would be a total surrender to them.
They have more than proved, to my satisfaction anyway, that they are capable of the mass-murder of those who oppose them. I have asked of Keith, Bruce and others who support the Israelis to comment on the massacre and so far only Roberto has had the bottle to reply.
Of course bombing people is evil, whether it be Israelis, Gazans, or the people of Coventry, Dresden, Hiroshima... or anywhere civilians happened to be in the firing line of a war. Regarding this issue, the bombardment is very much the lesser of two evils - that is not support, that is a pragmatic analysis of how things stand at present, and very different to Keith's 'support-by-silence' of the Israeli atrocities.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 11:35 AM

1. I asked everyone (including Jim) in the first post.

2. Jim isn't my friend - I would add he isn't my enemy either ... we have merely never had anything to do with each other - you have more of a relationship with him than I do.

3. My understanding of the post to which you refer is that Jim claims that Palestinians who fire rockets believe they are doing so in self defense, and that there is no way of proving that they are lying.

He also states that he does not support them or the Israelis.

You similarly make the observation that Israel believes it is acting in self defence.

You go further though as you add that you support Israeli attacks on Gaza on this basis.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 11:24 AM

200

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 11:24 AM

McGrath:"Sadly that does not appear to be true."

Yeah, Especially when the missiles are coming for well populated civilian areas. It's called collateral damage.

See my prior post, as to why that happens, and then explain why, you feel Hamas is firing from behind civilian cover.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 10:53 AM

Give us a break Lox.
We have all read his posts, except the long ones obviously.
Why not ask him straight?
Say "Jim, do you defend the rockets or support them?"
Why not Lox?
You must have wanted to know for sure, or why start this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 10:48 AM

I say that IDF is different in that it does not deliberately target civilians.

Sadly that does not appear to be true.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 10:44 AM

Just like the missiles going into Israel, and for similar reasons, were the planes that went into the Twin Towers defensive???? Would you call the train station bombing in Spain defensive? London? Lockerbie, defensive?? The hotel in India? The club in Singapore defensive?? Jihad, defensive?????? No!!! It is aggression against a culture and or religion that is other than their particular brand of horseshit!..No more, no less!...and the hatred between the Muslims and Jews has been going on for THOUSANDS of years. Recognized it for what it is, and stop painting it with the broad, often inaccurate brush, of some 'left' idealism. It is what it is, and probably will not end, until there will be massive bloodshed, in the Middle East, and spread to the rest of the world...which it already is!....and one side annihilates the other. ALL of this is needless, and will go on IF they continue their rationalizations of the 'right', to lob missiles, or planes, or bombs, or suicide bombers, aimed at civilians!!!...and to take that stance, that it is justified, you might as well be doing it yourselves!!...but then, it's easier to be an armchair diplomat, who is or has been to afraid, to actually be in battle, so instead, you form opinions about everybody else doing it...as long as it ain't you!
If those Muslims want their homeland, and for that homeland to not be used as a base, to launch attacks at their neighbors, their 'goal' might be accomplished sooner....but that IS NOT their goal. Irradicating Israel is. World domination under Sharia law is. FUCK 'EM! They can damn well learn to live in peace with ALL of us....or face the consequences!!
They want to taget civilians? they want to target Israel?..and hide in their mosques, and behind innocent civilians, because they expect the rest of the world to 'respect' the laws, that the rest of the world set up..and not attack those places..while they attack innocent families, women and children????..with utter disregard?....They can all go to hell!...and congrats to Israel or anyone wanting to help them with the trip!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 09:13 AM

"but I keep an open mind."

I can see the wind blowing thru...

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 06:31 AM

Lox, he said that as well.
We had this exchange.

Jim,
"I have never supported the deliberate targeting of civilians - show me were I have."

Me
You have supported the rocketing.
It is dishonest to claim they are "defensive."

His reply is in the post I linked to.
He said it was not dishonest to say they were defensive, and demanded proof from me that they were not defensive.

You are wilfully refusing to see that your friend is the only one here who supports and defends the rocketing of Israeli civilians.

I do think that Israel has acted in self defence, but I keep an open mind.
I will reconsider if any evidence is produced.
Too many here believe evil of Israel without evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Lox
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 06:21 AM

No Keith,

Jim stated that he saw Hamas as having been voted for by palestinians to serve a purpose, and he interprets their reason for voting for Hamas as being to instate a "defensive buffer against Isael".

He observes that those firing the rockets do so in the belief that they are defending themselves and that those who support them also believe that that is what they are doing.

He does not say that HE defends Hamas or the use of rockets.


You on the other hand go further than to observe that Israel believes it is acting in self defence. You actively support Israels actions, and you hold a partisan view that Israel is only acting in self defence.

On that basis, you refuse to condemn the violence equally.

You condemn Palestinian violence and support Israeli violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 04:29 AM

"Is there a ne plus ultra point? Will they stop stealing the Palestinian West Bank when they have "settled" 50%? 75%? 90%? When will they stop? "

This game was played in Western Europe in the 1930s..... didn't use the "N" word...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"From: Keith A of Hertford

Jim is so screwed up with hatred he is unable to be rational on this subject. "

Animal Farm: "The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: mousethief
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 04:02 AM

Your question about who gave them the right to do these things really has no bearing.

It does on the question of why the Palestinian Arabs have felt put upon by the existence of the State of Israel (and the Jewish National Homeland before it) at all. Yes, the world has moved on, you are right. The Nation of Israel is a fait accompli and there is no turning the clock back to 1917 or 1921 or 1947. (Or 1966 or, or, or....) However no solution will be found to the problems of this region if the attitude brought to the table is "just get over it." People don't work that way. It might be nice if they did; but then they wouldn't be people they'd be something else.

(Consider the truth-and-justice hearings in post-Apartheid South Africa. People need to be heard, and need to feel that their concerns are acknowledged.)

Re. the 5-paragraph summary. Yes, I read it. I am not sure you did, however. It does NOT say that the original mandate was divided into Jews on the left, Arabs on the right. I quote:

The mandate, gave the British virtually a free hand in administering the territory. By September, the establishment of "a Jewish national home" in Palestine was explicitly excluded from Transjordan, and it was made clear that the area would also be closed to Jewish immigration.

This does NOT say that everything east of the Jordan was to be the Jewish National Homeland. Only that no part of Transjordan was to be included in the JNH (if I can abbreviate). After 23 September 1922, "Palestine" referred to those lands west of the Jordan, and "Transjordan" those lands east of the Jordan, and they were treated as two separate mandates, albeit under the same High Commissioner (Source). There were still Palestinians west of the Jordan at that time and it is disingenuous to suggest that the British at that time intended all of Palestine (new i.e. post 23.09.1922 definition) to be the JNH.

We can talk about the unfolding of the JNH in Palestine and the Arab resistance to Jewish/Zionist immigration if you like. It's a complicated history (as you know) and it certainly isn't given much attention by most of the bloviators on the crisis. But those who don't learn from history, etc.

But really nobody has addressed my main point: the State of Israel has shown by its actions, as recently as this week, that it's not interested in peace with the Palestinians as equals, if at all. Every time they bite another chunk off the West Bank and fill it with Jewish settlers, they drive home that point. Is there a ne plus ultra point? Will they stop stealing the Palestinian West Bank when they have "settled" 50%? 75%? 90%? When will they stop?

I don't see how any independent observer can draw any other conclusion than that it is the intention of Israel to ultimately "settle" all of the West Bank, bit by bit. At least the ultra-Orthodox are honest enough to say it outright: they quite plainly say that all of "Judea and Samaria" belongs to Israel. When they (the State of Israel) finish what they started in 1948 with "Operation Clean Sweep", and all the Palestinians (with the possible exception of Gaza; at this point who can say?) are driven out of what they consider "Eretz Yisroel" (sp?), then maybe they will truly be interested in peace. If it isn't too late.

ALL THAT SAID: Lest anyone (by which I mean anyone, not necessarily the people I'm responding to in this post) should want to tell lies about where I stand: I deplore the killing of innocent people. The rockets into Israel, and the suicide bombers, and any other form of attacks on Israeli civilians, have got to stop. Period.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 03:15 AM

Lox's question in his OP,

"I am curious to know if anyone on the mudcat supports or defends the firing of rockets from Gaza into Israel"

Jim supports and defends them as "defensive".

Here is one of his posts from last night.
thread.cfm?threadid=131208&messages=188&page=1&desc=yes#2959006

If you have not already, read it through.
Jim is so screwed up with hatred he is unable to be rational on this subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel.
From: Roberto
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 02:48 AM

Jim writes: "I would remind you that Arabs are Semites and therefore, following your logic, any criticism of them might be construed as anti-Semitism."

Words and terms have a story behind, you can't play with them ignoring that. The term "anti-semitism" was born in Germany as another way of saying anti-judaism, that is not simple "criticism", as anybody with a minimum knowledge of history knows. Some Arabs played an important part in the story of anti-semitism, for instance with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, al-Husseini, allied to Hitler.

Jim writes: "the Shatila and Sabra massacres were crimes against humanity colluded in and probably instigated by the Israelis.
Please say yes or no."

The question was not for me, but I'd like to answer: yes.