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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: mousethief Date: 18 Aug 10 - 05:09 PM Does anybody with a functional prefrontal cortex doubt the existence of an ultra-right in Israel? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Aug 10 - 05:43 AM Interesting insight into Israel's political shenangans for those who doubt the existance of an ultra right in Israel. The article appears in the Irish Times today next to one on the trial of former Israeli president Moshe Katsav, charged with two counts of rape and one of sexual assault Jim Carroll RIGHT-WING GROUP SEEKS SACKING OF LEFT-WING LECTURERS MARK WEISS In Jerusalem A RIGHT-WING pressure group is threatening to drive donors away from one of Israel's top universities if the institution does not sack left-wing lecturers and alter its allegedly "anti-Zionist" curric¬ulum. The Im Tirzu advocacy group wrote a letter to Beersheba's Ben-Gurion university threatening to pressurise donors to withdraw their money unless the "left-wing bias" among teaching staff was addressed and alterations made to the study programme within 30 days. It also said it would try to per¬suade potential political science students to boycott the university. Im" Tirzu was set up by right-wing students in 2006 and has campaigned to expose what it per¬ceives as a left-wing bias in Israeli academia. Im Tirzu means, "if you will it", and is a quotation from Theodor Herzl, the founder of modern Zionism: "If you will it, it is no dream." A recent Im Tirzu report said that nine out of 11 academic staff members in the Ben-Gurion politics and government department are involved in "radical left" polit¬ical activity, and that three out of six doctoral candidates signed a petition supporting a senior lec¬turer who backed an international academic boycott of Israel. Israel's education minister, Gidon Sa'ar, condemned the Im Tirzu campaign. "Regardless of the claims concerning pluralism in Israeli academia, I categorically reject any move which would harm donations to Israeli universities, or to condition such dona¬tions." Minister of minority affairs Avishai Braverman, who served as Ben-Gurion university president before entering politics, termed the Im Tirtzu move "borderline fascism". "Academia is a stronghold of ideas and we need to defend it," Mr Braverman said. "Academic freedom is such that it can't be influenced by external sources. If there is a Zionist university, Ben-Gurion is it." Ben-Gurion university rejected the call to employ more right-wing staff members. "A demand to 'balance' the staff members' political views is extremely reminiscent of McCarthyism and goes against the democratic principles on which the state of Israel was founded," the university said. Prof David Newman, the newly appointed dean of Ben-Gurion's faculty of humanities and social sci¬ences, who has led Israel's efforts against the international academic boycott, termed the Im Tirzu campaign "a clear attempt to threaten the university in an era of dimin¬ishing financial resources". He described the accusations of left-wing bias as. "very far from the truth". Accusations from the right in Israel against alleged left-wing bias in Israeli universities are nothing new. Most academics iden¬tify with the progressive wing in Israeli politics, and this was one of the key arguments used by Israelis opposing the campaign abroad for a boycott of Israeli universities. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Ed T Date: 18 Aug 10 - 12:49 AM Lox OK, thanks for the explanaion, and putting into perspective. It seemed oddly "out of whack" with most of your posts, and perspectivea on the issue, to me....likely my issue, as I was not following each contribution. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: mousethief Date: 17 Aug 10 - 07:15 PM Don, I'm not in the Israel-über-Alles camp, but I have to agree: "antisemitic" refers to hatred of Jews, not of all persons who speak Semitic languages. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 17 Aug 10 - 05:51 PM Hoo-ha, Don. Boy, you really put one over on me. In the immortal words of Bugs Bunny, "Whatta maroon!" So long, Elmer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 17 Aug 10 - 05:40 PM ""That dog don't hunt, Don. You know that 'Anti-Semite" has specifically meant anti-Jewish for near 150 years. We have discussed that numerous times on Mudcat. You don't get to change the definition. I can only assume that you have your own agenda in those two statements above. They do you no credit, my friend."" I threw that one in John, in expectation of exactly that response. This is the classic knee jerk of the Pro Israel camp. Ignore the main thrust of the post, because you don't have any means of rebutting it, and seize on a minor point as a distraction. I threw you a hook, and I hope you don't damage your gullet digging it out. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Lox Date: 17 Aug 10 - 08:37 AM "The accusation of anti-Semitism has been a red herring from the start of this thread." I tend to agree with this, though in the context of the thread it is relevant insofar as many of the rockets fired into Israel have been fired with this motivation at heart. However as a comment on the motivations or sentiments of commentators on this forum it is a cheap tactic employed in a cowardly way when the unconditionally-pro-Israel argument isn't going well. Equally, as a comment on the motivation of Palestiians in general, or even on all those who fire rockets, let alonbe Humantarian aid agencies, it reeks of the same calumny and cowardice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Aug 10 - 08:28 AM The accusation of anti-Semitism has been a red herring from the start of this thread. The pro-Israelis have used it consistently as a substitute for having no defence for the behaviour of those they are defending. They have produced no substantial arguments in defence of Israeli atrocities, and, when challenged on their accusations of racism, have produced no substantiating evidence on that either, resorting rather to a cowardly silence What it boils down to is "If you disagree with me you are an anti-Semitic" - dangerous stuff!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Lox Date: 17 Aug 10 - 06:50 AM Words have different meaning depending on context. Legal definitions of words are often at odds with dictionary definitions. There are also Political definitions of words. In politics, an Anti-semite is undoubtedly someone who discriminates against Jews. Words definitons are specified by context. So while legal definitions may apply in a general context, general dictionary definitions do not apply in a legal context. So academic and historic definitons of Semite are not to be confused with the political definition. The risk associated with smudging over this distinction is that someone who hates jews could turn round and say "I'm not anti semitic - I love palestinians". Allegedly clever remarks like this do not help the debate, much less the plight of Palestinians, but serve instead as facile red herrings. As I have said before in this thread, there are already enough genuinely contentious issues to keep us going for a lifetime without playing diversionary wordgames. Ed T, My comment earlier referred directly to Johns comment about a single state solution being bad because it would end the uniqueness of Israel. There are grounds upon which to doubt the viability of a one state solution, but johns reasons are not amongst them. It is important to note that his point was that if you believe in a one state solution it is evidence that you are anti-semitic. In other words, if you don't agree that Israels "unique character" should be preserved no matter what, then it can only be because you hate Jews - or are a self hating Jew. This pattern is directly analogous to the BNP approach in England concerning British identity. Interestingly, the BNP also directs the lions share of its hatred against Moslems. Interestingly I have noted lately that the English Defence League (the BNP's unofficial thug army) have been filmed marching with a couple of Israeli flags in their midst on a few occasions over the last couple of years. This reality is an absurd and preposterous one for obvious historical reasons, but it is a reality nonetheless - the common denominator in such demonstrations being the scapegoating of Moslems, and the wierdest most mind boggling idea being that two such diametrically opposed entities could possibly identify with each other in any way. Anyway, I digress. Israel/Palestine is a Political problem that needs political solution ... what is the alternative? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 17 Aug 10 - 01:23 AM Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is prejudice against or hostility towards Jews, often rooted in hatred of their ethnic background, culture, and/or religion. A person who practices antisemitism is called an "antisemite." Antisemitism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ~~~~ Note: "ethnic background, culture, and/or religion" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 17 Aug 10 - 01:20 AM Semite Dictionary: Sem·ite (sĕm'īt') pronunciation n. 1. A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians. 2. A Jew. 3. Bible. A descendant of Shem. [Back-formation from SEMITIC.] Semite: Definition from Answers.com |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 16 Aug 10 - 10:43 PM "Incidentally, I believe those Palestinians are also Semites, are they not? "In which case my friend, you are as anti Semitic as those you accuse. "Don T." That dog don't hunt, Don. You know that 'Anti-Semite" has specifically meant anti-Jewish for near 150 years. We have discussed that numerous times on Mudcat. You don't get to change the definition. I can only assume that you have your own agenda in those two statements above. They do you no credit, my friend. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 16 Aug 10 - 09:59 PM ""***Blaming only Israel for the plight of Palestineans."" You don't even have the terms of reference sorted out. Correctly stated, what we have been doing is blaming the current government of Israel for certain specific acts of violence and terrorism against Palestinians in Gaza. Not even close to what you claim, and in addition, I believe that most of us here do not accept the premise that "Israeli", and "Jewish" are synonyms. If they are not, then blaming "Israel", or the "Israeli" government cannot be described as anti semitism. Incidentally, I believe those Palestinians are also Semites, are they not? In which case my friend, you are as anti Semitic as those you accuse. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Ed T Date: 16 Aug 10 - 09:41 PM Lox, you make good sense in much of your last post. Congrats in progressing the debate beyond one sided perspectives. However, I feel you oversimplified one issue you raise. "If the only obstacle to a peaceful solution is...."some perceived notion of unique identity then I find that obstacle to be very suspect indeed, if not racist by nature itself. Analogy - Britian losing its identity by joining the european union." I suspect you know that this area is much more complex and than that which you raise, including the one example you put forward to equate.(I note you use "if", and I suspect that you know that this does not represent the full issue, as the other part of the post would lead me to believe you would have a broader understanding than that). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Lox Date: 16 Aug 10 - 05:19 PM The 4 following areas of debate are more complex than just Anti-Semitic vs Non-Anti-Semitic. 1. ***Claiming Israel is not a democratic country. Democracy in the west is a hotly debated issue and defining it is an issue that has never succesfully been resolved in any contry in the world. So why should Israel be any different? 2. ***Denying the historic attachment of Jews to Israel. Well if you mean by that a simple denial that there is any connection between Jews and the land of Israel/Palestine and the city if Jerusalem etc then you are right. It would be hard to explain such a flat denial by any other motivation. But if you are referring to the hotly contested political issue of land rights disputes between european settlers and palestinians and the oft used argument that those settlers have a greater right to land than those who are displaced by settlements then you are talking about yet another ambiguous area of debate. These two topics are often deliberately confused on this forum. 3. ***Supporting a single state solution which would ultimately--if not quickly--end the uniqueness of Israel. Now this is very subjective. You clearly don't support a single state solution. I think I probably agree with you. However, the key word in both phrases "single state solution" and "two state solution" is "SOLUTION" As long as the solution in Israel/Palestine is a peaceful one then I think that is the important thing about it. If the only obstacle to a peaceful solution is some perceived notion of unique identity then I find that obstacle to be very suspect indeed, if not racist by nature itself. Analogy - Britian losing its identity by joining the european union. Synopsis - utter rubbish. 4. ***"Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis." This is not evidence of anti semitism. Comparing the Israel/Palestine conflict to Nazism is grossly disproportionate, but not anti-semitic. The holocaust was a crime which still resonates today and which 99% of people never wish to see again. For most people, the word Nazism stands as the exact opposite of words like "humanity" and "compassion". Many people, myself included, see the IDF and the Israeli government as lacking compassion and humanity in Gaza - that is how the word is used. I would remind you of the Speech by Gerald Kaufmann, Jewish MP in Britain, friend of Golda Meyer and associate of Ben Gurion, in which he compared the Israeli Blockade of Gaza with the Warsaw Ghetto in Poland in WWII. He compared the attitude of the Israeli Government during last january's assault on Gaza with Nazi attitudes. I don't think you could describe him as an anti-semite. ------- None of the above "criteria" indicate discrimination against Jews. In one case, in my view, on the issue of Nazi comparisons, they indicate a measure of exaggeration, arguably tactless and insensitive given the context. However, it is often Israeli right wingers who bring up the Nazis and Anti-semitism as a deliberate red herring in discussions of this nature and once in the discussion, interpretations of its meaning can and do become hotly contested. And it is important not to apply double standards - either Nazism and anti semitism are legitimate territory or they aren't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 16 Aug 10 - 04:56 PM "***Claiming that the United nations had no right to create a Jewish State, while not denying the the right to create other countries from the ashes of WWI and the end of colonialism." This sentence more accurately stated: ***Claiming that the League of Nations and the United nations had no right to create a Jewish State, while not denying their right to create other countries from the ashes of their respective wars, and the end of Colonialism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Aug 10 - 04:54 PM Your list appears to me to be no more than a random selection of your or somebody elses personal views - none of them, in my personal view, merit in any way the charge of anti- Semitism, though some of them might be construed as anti-Israeli as Israel stands at the present time. As Lox put it, "very ambiguous, politicized and subjective to your personal view." As far as "Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis." - that is the way I view the behaviour of Israel towards the Palestinians, and I have laid out my reasons numerous times on these threads - tell me where it is not true instead of waving a set of privately arrived at rules under our noses. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 16 Aug 10 - 04:42 PM "I remember your list of criteria and it was very ambiguous, politicized and subjective to your personal view." Lox, I have a working copy of what I posted. Whatever else you might think it is, it certainly is not ambiguous. I don't like to repeat my self, but I will summarize my conclusions from the earlier post: ***Blaming only Israel for the plight of Palestineans. ***Claiming Israel is not a democratic country. ***Denying the historic attachment of Jews to Israel. ***Denying that Diaspora Jews are truly Jews. ***Claiming that the United nations had no right to create a Jewish State, while not denying the the right to create other countries from the ashes of WWI and the end of colonialism. ***Claiming Israel has forfeited the right to exist as a Jewish nation. ***Supporting a single state solution which would ultimately--if not quickly--end the uniqueness of Israel. Each of those conclusions have an analog posted at Mudcat which caused me to post my original. After I posted that post, I found other examples on the web. From european-forum-on-antisemitism.org I found one other criterion that I had missed from among the things said at Mudcat: ***"Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis." While what I wrote does reflect my view, most is not original with me (though some I came up with independently), nor is it subjective, as I showed examples and comparisons in the body of the post. Every conclusion I reached is based on things that have been written this spring and summer (and even years ago) at the Mudcat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Aug 10 - 02:56 PM For a start, the term 'Israel bashing' brings with it an implication that the Israeli people have been singled out because of what they are rather than what they or their government have done. Criticisms of Israeli behaviour throughout this thread have been specific and neither you nor your fellow Israeli apologists have answered them apart from the suggestion that history gives them the right to behave towards the Palestinians the way they do. I suspect that many people are in the same position I am when it comes to criticising Israel - bloody uncomfortable. I was brought up in an anti-facist household, a fact which has coloured my attitude to all races and creeds. As a practicing Catholic, my father was so appalled at the rise of fascism in the thirties that he went off to fight in Spain. He came home having spent 6 months in hospital and 18 months in a Spanish prison (run by Italian Fascists), to find he had been excommunicated from his church and possessing a police record as a 'premature anti-fascist - the parlance of that time. His family were militantly involved in the opposition to the British fascist Mosely; my grandmother was arrested for throwing a stone at him during one of his anti-Semitic rants. I have spent a lifetime opposing fascism in organisations like the anti-fascist League and the Anti-Apartheid movement, so it comes as deeply insulting when people who have not the courage to back up their insults and hide behind cowardly silence, call me an anti-Semite. It came as extremely difficult for people like me to criticise what is being done by the Israelis to Palestinian civilians - however they - or you dress it, they are committing war crimes not unsimilar to those committed against the Jewish people We kept our mouths firmly shut for a long time until we could stay silen no longer - for me, the crunch came with the Shatila and Sabra massacres; it was then I found it difficult to distinguish between the Israelis and the former persecutors of the Jewish people. You may not have accused me directly of anti-Semitism, but your 'Israeli bashers' is a different side of the same coin. If you have ANY evidence of anti-Semitism o these threads, then please produce it; otherwise, I suggest that your argument would be far better served by confining yourself to the accusations made against Israel Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Lox Date: 16 Aug 10 - 02:35 PM "you have admitted that Anti-Semitism plays a part in the feelings of some people towards Israel" John. You are a clever clogs aren't you. Really?!!!! Anti-semitism plays a part in some peoples perceptions of Israel? No Shit Sherlock!!! Don't be insincere John. Your position is not that some Israel critics are anti semites. Your position on this forum is to insinuate that critics of the Israeli government on this forum are motivated by antisemitism. I remember your list of criteria and it was very ambiguous, politicized and subjective to your personal view. I will give you a definiton of antisemitic that bears fair scrutiny in the 21st century. An anti-semite, regardless of the origins of the word semite, can be described as a person who discriminates against Jews on the basis of the fact that they are Jews. It is very simple. I have heard enough mealy mouthed 'proofs' from Moslems, Jews, the Irish etc etc designed to uncover the 'real' racists, islamophobes and anti-semites to turn my stomach. There is enough actual descrimination on the grounds of race and religion to keep us occupied for the rest of our lives. So you can keep your 'criteria', it means nothing to me and it serves no useful purpose except to give you a sense of self granted authourity as a self appointed judge of who is or isn't an anti-semite. Now grow up and learn to express a viewpoint, counter an argument and provide impartial evidence as source material and stop with the mealy mouthed rhetorical questions, insinuations and general self congratulating, self righteous, self deceiving crap. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 16 Aug 10 - 01:30 PM Ah, Jim, Jim, Jim. While I have never called anybody an Anti-Semite, I have listed on the 'Cat, a number of criteria which would, in whole or part, tend to cause others to think Anti-Semitism was in play here. They was not just my thoughts, but those from the ADL among some other groups. I posted them for your (everybody's) edification and, perhaps, self awareness. A couple of folks, notably you, chose to deny that possibility that Anti-Semitism might be a factor in some posts or arguments. That's okay. But today, in the context of this thread, you have admitted that Anti-Semitism plays a part in the feelings of some people towards Israel. We may disagree as to why that is...but it is. Thank you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Aug 10 - 12:37 PM 'Israel bashing' There is something disgustingly hypocritical about somebody excusing the bad behavior of any people - in this case war crimes against civilians, on the basis of "how dare you criticise them; they're black, jewish, Latin American, whatever - not just hypocritical, but dangerous since terrorism and atrocities are not confined to one single race, or colour or religion and come in all shapes and sizes. I invite you, or anybody, as I did Bruce and Roberto (and was met with a dishonest silence from both) - if you can show any example of racism on this or the other 'Israel bashing' thread, please do so - or do you believe any one religion or nationality to be above criticism. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Aug 10 - 12:12 PM "Thank you, Jim Carroll, for confirming one of my arguments here or at the other bash Israel thread. " You mean that you didn't know the the people running Israel today were a bunch of thugs. Not bashing Israel - just the atrocities they have committed which you continue to refuse to acknowledge. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 16 Aug 10 - 12:02 PM Jim, The sky is blue here..... GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 16 Aug 10 - 11:24 AM Thank you, Jim Carroll, for confirming one of my arguments here or at the other bash Israel thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Aug 10 - 03:19 AM "This is sad and ironic as hell when one knows the history of Irish American support for the Jewish partisans" This assumes that the atrocities committed by the bunch of thugs running Israel today is in any way comparable with the heroism of the Jewish partisans. They have done more for anti-Semitism in the last few years than any racists could possibly have achieved in centuries "inhabitants of a cuckoo clock." Careful Lox - he kicks ass (or something to do with ass!) Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 16 Aug 10 - 02:42 AM Brain-LOX: "While GfS is descended from the inhabitants of a cuckoo clock." Shit, man, you're stretching on that one!!....Now, I guess I'm mortally wounded!.....I guess.....(rolls eyes, and sighs) GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Lox Date: 15 Aug 10 - 10:02 PM While GfS is descended from the inhabitants of a cuckoo clock. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 15 Aug 10 - 09:50 PM SHHHHHhhhh, Don't tell anyone, but the Irish are descendants of Israel(ites)! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Lox Date: 15 Aug 10 - 09:48 PM Well what the Irish do and what Irish Americans do aren't really connected. But it goes to show what a bad PR game Israel has played in losing the sympathy and support of many countries worldwide who would otherwise have been a lot more supportive. The reason they have lost this support is down to their treatment of palestinians in recent years. When your friend is a bully, you have to tell him and if he won't change, you have to make it clear that he risks losing your friendship. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: robomatic Date: 15 Aug 10 - 09:38 PM A group of Irish artists, musicians etc. have announced that they are boycotting Israel and will not be acceting any bookings there until it cleans up its act regarding its human rights record. This, and the move to get Dunne's Stores to boycott goods from Israel is a step in the direction of placing Israel where it belongs - next to Apartheid South Africa as an oppresive State This is sad and ironic as hell when one knows the history of Irish American support for the Jewish partisans working to establish an Independent state against the incipient destruction that was being prepared for them by their Arab neighbors. It certainly outweighs any current misdirection on the part of certain iditos of the present day. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 15 Aug 10 - 06:57 PM Jim,: ""and I kick ass, too!" Absolutely beautiful - keep it coming." I'll be posting some music..., you tell me! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Greg F. Date: 15 Aug 10 - 12:42 PM I can't see what a society and its political expressions... that deny freedom of speech and press, human and civil rights, equality between men and women, separation between religion and politics has to do with the Left. The left??? Sounds like the U.S. christian[sic] fundagelical right wing to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Aug 10 - 06:25 AM "and I kick ass, too!" Absolutely beautiful - keep it coming. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Lox Date: 15 Aug 10 - 06:17 AM In fact Roberto, you have inadvertantly stumbled upon the point. The left has nothing to do with the Israel/Palestine conflict at all. The conflict is being dictated by Extreme Israeli right wingers and extreme Islamist right wingers. The call for a political solution is not an example of left wing politics, but of moderate/centrist politics. If the left wing had any say in either Israel or in Gaza then the situation might be a whole lot more peaceful. Now how do I know that BB, Teribus, Bobad etc etc are all going to step in to blame the left for the conflict? Note roberto that all those on here who support Israei violence are also very vocal in their support of right wing politics in the UK and USA. They illustrate the reality beautifully. But let me invite you to keep an eye out for some of the pro BNP posts on here. Note the style of argument and then compare it to Bobads style. Rhetorical questions, insinuations, lies and the endless repetition of opinion masquerading as fact despite having been discredited on numerous occasions, the use of partisan sources and contempt for the concept of academic impartiality. This issue is all about the right wing. And then of course there's the tactic that you use roberto of describing people as Israel haters as a convenient way of pigeon holing arguments that you don't have the wit to confront in any other way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Roberto Date: 15 Aug 10 - 03:09 AM Jim often makes references to the political Right wing and the Left wing when discussing on Israel/Palestine. I can't see what the support for the Palestinian Cause has to do with the Left. As I've said before, I support the Two-State solution. That is, I think it is fair and necessary that the Palestinians build their own state (when they decide this is the priority, and not destroying Israel) and that Israel withdraws from some of the land it occupies now, as a state and through colonies, and that both, Israel and the new state of Palestine, subscribe a Peace Treaty, with mutual recognition. I support a political and statual future for the Palestinians, and hope they remove the main obstacles in order to achieve this result, the external obstacles and the internal (Hamas etc). That said, I can't see what a society and its political expressions, especially in Gaza, that deny freedom of speech and press, human and civil rights, equality between men and women, separation between religion and politics has to do with the Left. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 14 Aug 10 - 10:42 PM Joe: "Sanity has a gig to do? Sanity is a musician? Hmmmm. Don't ya wish ya knew who Sanity really is? I thought he/she was just a right-wing political wonk." Nope, not a right wing wonk......LONG time musician....and I kick ass, too! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Ed T Date: 14 Aug 10 - 05:05 PM Sorry, Jimbo, I haven't taken any side or stated a position. Must have mistaken me for one of your straw enemies. Could it be that you are shootin' blanks again. Time to think and reload. Now let's try it again....the word "constructive" should not be seen or taken as an angry, confrontative word ;) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Aug 10 - 04:52 PM "Choices could include adding something constructive," This argument has not gone your way - you have failed to convince the majority of us that piracy, mass murder , chemical bombing, seizure of land and property, and the general contempt for the Palestinian people is acceptable, now you appear to be shouting 'foul' - well tough shit. It is you and your handful of right-wing friendsa who have poured abuse on those who opposed you and you have moved from denying that atrocities never took place to the statement that the Palestinians shouldn't be in Gaza anyway because it interferes in some way with some ancient claim to a 'Promised Land' - how constructive is that?. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Ed T Date: 14 Aug 10 - 02:49 PM "This gets a little tiresome" A good point you make. So, what are you going to do about it, yourself, as you have been a major player in the tiresome content? Choices could include adding something constructive, (outside rude comments, name calling, and one sided perspectives, that is) that would advance the discussion (though, I streatch this definition, quite a bit). That is if you have a broader perspective to add? If not, what's the point, and what is your real purpose in posting such stuff? I suspect you are a very busy guy, and there are many venues where you could make more of an impact promoting your theories and historic accounts to solve these issues, rather than posting on this mundane thread, which seems to have a limited audience for your stuff? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: mousethief Date: 14 Aug 10 - 02:05 PM Apposite to the discussion so far |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Aug 10 - 10:36 AM "But, if you wish...contine to throw your vile comments, and underwear at each other if you wish, even though that this has zero value at all to anyone. "" This gets a little tiresome. Enough specific points on Israel's behaviour have been put to fill a library. Responses like this can only be regarded as replacements for rational argument - as are accusations of anti-Semitism Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Greg F. Date: 14 Aug 10 - 09:39 AM Assuming I did know, why would I care? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: mousethief Date: 14 Aug 10 - 02:28 AM Don't ya wish ya knew who Sanity really is? Most emphatically no. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Joe Offer Date: 14 Aug 10 - 02:01 AM Sanity has a gig to do? Sanity is a musician? Hmmmm. Don't ya wish ya knew who Sanity really is? I thought he/she was just a right-wing political wonk. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 14 Aug 10 - 01:19 AM Jim, Ah, the nastiness is rearing its head, again.....*sigh*...oh well, at least the 'haters' have been flushed out! What is that??...Peace??....Inner peace??...Love??....Actually, you have nothing to say, worth a hill of beans! Sweet Dreams, I gotta gig to do....See ya'! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 13 Aug 10 - 08:34 PM "To be objective in this Middle East conflict, one would have to look at the reasoning of both parties, without making judgments on whether their logic and actions are reasonable to you or not. Armed with that objective understanding, one could then possibly come closer to make a judgment on, not who is right or wrong, but on how these folks could get out of this mess" As I said before, the only 'logical solution' I was able to stumble over decades ago, was 'a couple of hundred megatons, aimed at that big rock'... but I admit that would not be much 'help' for any of the current participants over there - just 'make the problem go away for the rest of us' - I really do not find this a 'humane solution' however ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Ed T Date: 13 Aug 10 - 08:11 PM Some folks try to understand each others perspective. Other folks just take a firm stand and blast insults at at others, if their position does not seem to be reinforced. Not only does this show imature logic, it is not particularily productive or interesting in a conversation, especially a discussion that has a history of polarizing folks. I normally avoid those types of people and discussions....because there is little possibility of any constuctive discussion resulting. Inb those cases, like many Mudcatters, I avoid these pointless/rude discussion, or sometimes prefer to inject humour to cool heads down, rather than getting involved in a pointless "no win pissing match". Folks on both sides just get frustrated and throw insults at each other (and even at spectators, whom they see as not seeming to be on their side of the issue). I suspect if you objectively reviewed your posts, you know what catagory you would fall under. To be objective in this Middle East conflict, one would have to look at the reasoning of both parties, without making judgements on whether their logic and actions are reasonable to you or not. Armed with that objective understanding, one could then possibly come closer to make a judgement on, not who is right or wrong, but on how these folks could get out of this mess...that does not serve the interests of the civilian population of either side. I doubt that this thread will be read by either faction, So, what's the purpose in throwing hurtful insults around. Do you actually feel it makes your case or opinion seem more valid, or changes the views of your perceived foe? Unlikely. I suggest you put your talented minds to better use. But, if you wish...contine to throw your vile comments, and underwear at each other if you wish, even though that this has zero value at all to anyone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Aug 10 - 05:41 PM "homosexuality brought a death penalty, under Sharia law." Which has exactly what to do with this discussion? Nobody is defending sharia law - but you crowd of sickos are defending Israeli brutality and are now using racism to defend it, unless of course your suggesting that chemical weapons, the slaughter of civilians, including women and children is a mission to rid the world of religious intolerance - if so, I'd watch your back - crawl back... into your redneck hole; you're getting more inarticulate by the minute. Jim Carrol |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hamas rockets fired into Israel. From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 13 Aug 10 - 05:34 PM Crows Feet: "Otherwise GfS I'd rather hear the call to Prayer fromMecca than any amount of awful processed "Christian" music!" Was that 'Christian'? It's just from an Irish musical called 'Saint Patrick's Breastplate'. In the story line, of the play, these people are being hunted by soldiers wishing to kill them, for their beliefs. They come to a clearing in the woods, and know, if they enter into the clearing, that they will be seen, and therefore killed...SO, they gather around, and 'Shape Shift', into Deer, and sing that song, for protection. ..and, as the pursuers move through them, looking to kill them, all they see are the Deer, but cannot hear their song, nor see them......sorta like here, huh? GfS |
