When will Mudcat clean up its act?

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 04:51 PM

Sarah Palin - have I missed an opportunity to take a pop at Sarah Palin? - sod it!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 04:29 PM

I frequently insult David Cameron and Clegg his fag (that's "fag" as in boyservant at public, ie private, school, not fag as in US based male homosexual). However, surely they are malevolent, not the reverse. But I thought PCP was a hallucinogenic drug.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: gnu
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 04:26 PM

Joe... thank goodness cause my SiL still can't parboil shit for a tramp. She does make some meals amazingly well, but the odds are in favour of heartburn.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: GUEST,bumcat
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 04:17 PM

No, I think your song's great Jim. However I do object to Mudcatters not making personal attacks on Sarah Palin! Can they also make personal attacks on David Cameron, Bill Gates and other supposedly do gooding obnoxious twats please? That also includes all PCPs. Thanks.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 03:47 PM

Guest
Do you object to the song I put up or the comments surrounding it?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 03:47 PM

Hey! We might even get Barack Obama and Sarah Palin and Nick Griffin joining Mudcat   :-)

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 03:36 PM

...apologies to my (former) sister-in-law, who shall remain unnamed. I still have contact with her, and she's still a family joke, but I got divorced out of the family.

I think when we say that Mudcat prohibits "personal attacks," we mean Mudcatters attacking other Mudcatters. There have been people who asked that we delete attacks on people like Barack Obama and Sarah Palin, but those petitions have been denied. I think the same applies to comments made about unnamed family pariahs.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 02:54 PM

Is that personal attacks like stupid and obnoxious?

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 02:38 PM

Well, Robbie, keep my workaround in mind. if you do get blocked, Google Mudcat FAQ. There's a Filter in the first message of the FAQ, and you can use it to filter out PG13 threads.
I realize that may not help library visitors who come here looking for songs, but I have a feeling that most of them get here by Google, bypassing the Forum Menu and its occasional naughty words.

I once had a very obnoxious sister-in-law who would blurt out all sorts of puzzling things, and some of her sayings became family jokes. One thing that really got us was her tsk-tsk way of talking about people who "used the f-word." She was the first person I ever heard use that term, "f-word," and it always struck me as ridiculously prudish. Then I discovered the Berryman song, "A Chat With Your Mother," alternately titled F-Word in the Digital Tradition. I was pleased to see that Peter Berryman shares my view of the ridiculosity of euphemisms. Every time I see a blatant euphemism, I'm reminded of my stupid, obnoxious sister-in-law. So, for me, it's a gut issue. I don't want Mudcat to look stupid and obnoxious, even if it causes somebody to get blocked by a profanity filter now and then. Most likely, they'll find their way back some other day.

If you're starting a thread and you want to euphemize a bad word, we're not going to stop you....but we're not going to euphemize away things that have been posted. But on the other hand, we will continue to prohibit personal attacks and intervene when they're reported.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 09:25 AM

A bible belt preacher was leaving his church after delivering a hellfire sermon, when he was accosted by a man who grabbed his hand and shook it vigorously.

"Parson, that was the best goddamn sermon I've heard in years" he said.

"My son", said the preacher, "I appreciate the sentiment, but I must insist that you refrain from blasphemy and profanity on these holy premises".

"Well padre, I'm surely sorry if I offended you, but I was so goddamned impressed that I want to donate twenty thousand dollars to your ministry".

The preacher replied "No goddamn shit. Well FUCK ME!"

Don T.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 09:06 AM

I was being ironic. If you take care to examine the content of many traditional folk songs, you will find that they often describe events far ruder than a few bad words.

So, Robbie Wilson. Can you read? and more to the point - can you understand what you have read?

Perhaps if you read Jim Carroll's addition to this thread you might understand the orientation of my comment.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 08:50 AM

Sorry Bumcat, do you have trouble reading? Throughout this thread people have said do not restrict what people can say. never mind censor song words or singing.

By putting language which will block the Forum Home page you exclude a number of interested parties from Mudcat. Nothing to do with religion, nothing to do with righteousness just simple practicalities of working peoples lives.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: GUEST,bumcat
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 07:53 AM

Yes, why not slap a few health and safety laws on Mudcat and cosh folksters if they ever stray from the path of the good and righteous!
After all, traditionally folk songs have never included lyrics about bad behaviour have they?! I mean all those songs that ever include events that go against the ten commandments should be banned! They are far worse than a few naughty words surely!

Let's rewrite history, why don't we and then pehaps we can censor all speech while we're at it and before you know it, we're all too afraid to sing any folk songs at all.

How naive this thread is!

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Zen
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 07:41 AM

My, my, what a lot of fuss about a few naughty words! Also, judging by the length of the thread, a subject of surprising interest to many. What I find far more offensive and upsetting is the sheer bitchiness, bad manners and downright unkindness we sometimes read on Mudcat. Perhaps it's the people who post who should clean up their act!

I quite agree. The odd rude word doesn't bother me at all but what has made me stand back somewhat from Mudcat over the past year or two after 10 years as a member here has been the aggressivity and rudeness of a relatively small number of people who have unfortunately ruined a lot of otherwise useful threads. I know quite a number of 'Catters in person and know I am not alone in this.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 07:19 AM

Perhaps I was not clear enough when I posted above. In the past Profanity has caused me problems and stopped me logging into Mudcat for weeks at a time. It depends where I work.

5 Years ago a poster called John Mehlberg posted a new "smutty" title virtually other day. It was not the threads which caused me a problem but the titles which meant that I could not access Mudcat at school at all, not through prudishness but because of the education authority (County) filter.

I asked for a little thoughtfulness in thread titles and eventually the problem went away. However as recent events have shown it has always had the potential to raise its ugly head again.

I have no problem with the idea that other people have different levels of what is acceptable, or even that occassionaly people in here express opinions which I find offensive. I can always decide to counter or ignore but only if I can get in the forum in the first place.

It is not the individual words that bother me but the way people speak to each other and yes, Joe, It seems to me that that is pretty much what you did say in big bold letters

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 01:37 PM

Aha! Now you have your finger on the real problem, G-force. ;-)

But there's nothing can be done about it. Believe me, I have tried (from time to time). One might as well tilt at windmills or try to empty the ocean with a bucket.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: G-Force
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 12:01 PM

My, my, what a lot of fuss about a few naughty words! Also, judging by the length of the thread, a subject of surprising interest to many. What I find far more offensive and upsetting is the sheer bitchiness, bad manners and downright unkindness we sometimes read on Mudcat. Perhaps it's the people who post who should clean up their act!

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: GUEST,Betsy
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 07:46 PM

Well done (and said) Joe - I believe you're a worthy custodian of Mudcat.
Who knows,in years to come,values may change either way, but for now I'll stick with yours - which roughly reflect mine .

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 07:36 PM

Did I say THAT, Amos?

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 01:23 PM

"Fuck off," he hinted genteely. I love it!


A

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 01:22 PM

No, Tim, I don't think we could ever come to an agreement on what to remove to "clean up Mudcat." I think we're better off learning to tolerate others having the freedom of expression that we'd like ourselves to have.

Way back in the earliest days of Mudcat, we had a Mudcatter named Elsie who waged a one-woman war to keep Mudcat free of non-folk posts and non-folk lyrics. Other forces prevailed, and Elsie faded into the mists. Since then, we've tolerated almost everything but direct personal attacks, and we've had a tradition of freedom of posting that has continued to this day.

And we folkie purists are still here, and we like our songs unexpurgated.

All of us find elements of Mudcat distasteful. I have been soundly chastised for my dislike of birthday and "good thoughts" threads. If I had my druthers, I'd ban them - but a lot of Mudcatters wouldn't like that. I think we're best off leaving most things as they were posted, and satisfy ourselves by grumbling here and there about the things we don't like.

In other words:

Clean up Mudcat? Over my dead body!

-Joe-

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 12:44 PM

I recall Billy Connolly years ago saying that fuck is an excellent word. it leaves you in no doubt as to the intention and is a definite word. He said that you never read a book with "Fuck off" he hinted...." in a sentence.

For me, there are times when such expletives are necessary, not strictly necessary, but in order to give expression to a stance. I reckon the only time I get shirty about such use of language is when I see it as a substitute for vocabulary. I used to work down the pit and as an adjective, it was used by just about everybody in just about every sentence. When you got showered and went home, it was as if you were speaking a different language.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 04:11 AM

So did we decide to clean up mudcat?

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 01:38 AM

I still haven't heard from anyone who was actually blocked from Mudcat because of a naughty song title on the Forum Menu; nor have I heard from anyone who was blocked and tried our workaround. I still, therefore, conclude that this really hasn't been a problem for people.

There are lots of things that people post here that drive me absolutely crazy, things like smarminess, pettiness, and mindless repetition. For the most part, I'm expected to put up with them - and I get dumped on if I utter a word of complaint. If those things are permitted, then maybe it should be OK to post a naughty song here every now and then - complete with title. How 'bout if we permit one naughty song in exchange for every birthday thread?
-Joe-

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 10:34 PM

Yes, well-said, RobbieWilson, thanks.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 09:16 PM

well said, Mr. Wilson...

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 09:02 PM

I remember posting to a similar thread about 4 or 5 years ago. I work as a teacher and often log into mudcat in free time at school. My school, like many public systems, particularly those made available to children, has a filter which not only stops me looking at threads with words or topics which might be deemed unsuitable for children it would stop me looking at Mudcat at all if these words are in the thread title.

There are no words which of themselves offend me. Offence always lies in usage and intention. Insistence on using words which will obviously exclude a chunk of the membership from the whole forum, never mind the particular discussion, when there are simple devices to get round the problem seems to me thoughtless and arrogant. But then again so often you see people in here whose sole aim seems to be to show how they are above us mear plebs.

If I type in c**t, bas***d f**k or fcuk you know what the words are and I am obviosly getting round a filter. This is not Bowdlerisation, the meaning and the intended words are clear. When I speak I say what I mean to say to get my meaning across. When I use a computer I type what gets my message across. I avoid typing words which will lead to machines filtering what I want to say as I have no superiotity issue towards those poor suckers who have to put up with such things.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Bugsy
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 08:00 PM

Reading this thread reminded me of a childrens Movie called "The Never Ending Story" The only difference being, the movie was mildly interesting.

Lets move on.

CHeers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Betsy
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 07:41 PM

Joe, I bet you don't need all this shit . Well done to all you open minded adults who have posted .

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 07:26 AM

Quite possibly, Rob - I've known quite a few tunes put to different versions of this song.

Any road, who wants bloody white rose monkeys chippin' in when th'organ grinders grinding. I'm talkin' to't oil can, not to't rag... :-)

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:57 AM

Will: the tune would be the same as "Seven Drunken Nights", surely? It's just a bowdlerised version of the above, after all.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:53 AM

Jim: "O, I've been ower hills and dales me lass, and many a grassy moor,
But girt hob nails on a pickle jar I've never seen before."

Surely that should be "clog irons"? Clogs were never hob-nailed, but fitted with u-shaped irons. At least in Yorkshire...bloody Lancastrians might have done it differently.

Pedantic Rob

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:33 AM

Jim - forgot to ask: is there a tune available for this somewhere?

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:29 AM

Jim - great song - and one that surfaces all over the place. There are several American versions - one that I recall being "Cabbage Head". This version's all the better for being from Lancashire, though!

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:21 AM

Just found this a bit earlier in the thread.

"OP" is bog standard internetwebspeak. If people can't speak web, they should log out and watch TV."

If people can't speak web, they are usually well adjusted people. Nobody owns the web, nobody has to speak another language. The keyboard and ASCII character recognition means that normal English (or Swahili if it turns you on) is more than enough to be "allowed" to speak as you wish. Hopefully, in the same way as you actually speak.

And.. in the spirit of this thread;

What a stupid fucking statement, born of stupid fucking arrogance. Far more offensive than the Anglo Saxon adjectives I have just used, by any standard...

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 06:09 PM

I was inclined to accept Steve Gardham's idea that this thread is a wind-up.
Surely we've lost enough of our traditional repertoire to the Mrs Grundy who would antiscepticise our folk songs to the stage where we sit around singing 'Ten Green Bottles' though, thinking about it, I used to know a pretty randy version of that one time.
"these songs have nothing to do with the folk tradition and have no place here."
Bollocks - if you'll excuse the expression (or if you won't). Our repertoire is full of bawdy, erotic, even obscene songs, and long may that be the case. Even our childrens repertoire has them, though the Opies once shamefully described the kids who sang them as "ogre children'.
We lost many of them thanks to some of the opinions expressed here, but we still have D'urfey's 'Pills to Purge Melancholy' and Farmer's 'Merry Songs and Ballads".
Many of the collectors bowed to Victorian hypocricy and either didn't take down the songs, or castrated them for publication, but many had the good sense to take them down an put them aside for a more enlightned age - nice to see Peter Buchan's 'Secret Songs of Silence' available at long last after a century and a half (two versions of it even).
This is one that managed to slip through the net; an example that sex is there to be celebrated, not to be ashamed of.
As MacColl wrote in is introduction to his annual stage show, The Festival of Fools, "Let fornication thrive".
Jim Carroll

TH'OWD CHAP CAME OWER T' BANK      
From the singing of Harold Slaeden, Openshaw, Manchester, Easter 1934
Recorded by Ewan MacColl and Joan Littlewood

Th' owd chap came ower t' bank bawling for his tea,        
Saw a pair o' mucky clogs where his owd clogs should be;
"Come here wife, come here wife, what's this here I see?
How come this pair o' mucky clogs where my owd clogs should be?"
"O, y'owd "bugger, you daft bugger, it's plain as plain can be,
They're just a couple of pickle jars me owd mam sent to me.
"O, I've been ower hills and dales me lass, and many a grassy moor,
But girt hob nails on a pickle jar I've never seen before."

T'owd chap came ower t' bank bawling for his tea,
Saw a coat on back o' t' door where his owd coat should be;
"Come here wife, come here wife, what's this here I see?
How come this coat on back o' t' door where my owd coat should be?"
"O y'owd bugger, you daft bugger, it's plain as plain can be,
It's just an owd pudding cloth me owd mam sent to me"
"O I've been ower hills and dales me lass, and many a grassy moor,
But buttons on a pudding cloth I've never seen before."

Th'owd chap came ower the bank bawling for his tea,
Saw a head on't pillow where his owd head should be.
"Come here wife, come here wife, what's this here I see?
How come this head on t' pillow where my owd head should be?"
"O, y'owd bugger, you daft bugger, it's plain as plain can be,
That's just a girt big turnip me owd mam sent to me."
"O, I've been ower hills and dales me lass, and many a grassy moor,
But a girt big turnip full of teeth I've never seen before."

T'owd chap came ower the bank bawling for his tea,
Saw a pair of hairy cods where his owd cods should be.
"Come here wife, come here wife, what's this here I see?
How come this pair of hairy cods where my owd cods should be?"
"O, y'owd. bugger, you daft bugger, it's plain as plain can be,
They're just a couple of garden spuds me owd mam sent to me."
"O, I've been ower hills and dales me lass, and many a grassy moor,
But garden spuds with hairs on I've never seen before."

Th' owd chap came ower the bank bawling for his tea,
Saw a great big standing prick where his owd prick should be.
"Come here wife, come here wife, what's this here I see ?
How come this great big standing prick where my owd prick should be?"
"O, y'owd bugger, you daft bugger, it's plain as plain can be,
Its just a home grown carrot me owd mam sent to me."
"O, I've been ower hills and dales and many a grassy moor,
But a carrot digging a great big hoyle I've never seen before."

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 05:47 PM

The thing that trumps everything else is Max's having once said any thread he's posted to is not to be messed with. Of course, what he actually said was that nothing should be deleted from any thread he's posted to, but I think that means the whole thread as well as posts.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 05:41 PM

John... don't press the issue,hmmm? 'Site policy' also includes the right of 'management' to make judicious exceptions for special circumstances. The 'naughty word' issues takes some explaining.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 05:34 PM

Gosh, better not discuss the offspring of Henry VIII either.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 05:16 PM

But we're not allowed to discuss site policy, as we have been told many many times before!

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Brian May
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:27 PM

I've literally just packed in the Acoustic Guitar Forum over 'blunt instrument' censorship.

God help you if you are a carpenter, you can't have a bastard file, even though it's been called that for 100s of years.

Can't say 'damn' either - apparently the Hollywood line 'Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn' would be cut as well.

I abhor that kind of sanctimonious, self-righteous, intolerant claptrap.

Bible thumping, conservative, middle America, really ought to put its own backyard in order before oppressing people using (correctly) their own language! Outrageous.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: gnu
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:25 PM

Jonh, Richard... perhaps it's staying above the line as a discussion of site policy for those who would not normally go below or guests who would not be interested in doing so?

Otherwise, yup.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:18 PM

666!! I'm SURE arcane forces are at work in the auto-captioning program!

(ummm...is there such a thing as anti-exorcism?)

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:15 PM

It grieves me Giok, but I agree.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 03:08 PM

It's still a BS thread though.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 02:54 PM

I should point out that the French quoted does not translate to the English phrase usually used and Wikianswers translates it accurately (my French is at least good enough for that).

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 02:44 PM

Wikianswers says: -

"Who said I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it?
In: Famous Quotations [Edit categories]

[Improve]

Though these words are regularly attributed to Voltaire, they were first used by Evelyn Beatrice Hall, writing under the pseudonym of Stephen G Tallentyre in "The Friends of Voltaire" (1906), as a summation of Voltaire's beliefs on freedom of thought and expression.

Another possible source for the quote was proposed by Norbert Guterman, editor of "A Book of French Quotations," who noted a letter to M. le Riche (February 6, 1770) in which Voltaire is quoted as saying: "Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write" ("Monsieur l'abbé, je déteste ce que vous écrivez, mais je donnerai ma vie pour que vous puissiez continuer à écrire"). This remark, however, does not appear in the letter.


voltare
Voltaire is most often credited with the saying, but many believe that this is a widespread mistake, and that the quote was originally said by Ewelyn Beatrice Hall. There is no definite answer to this question."

I always thought it was Voltaire.

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 01:47 PM

BillD, I was quite surprised last night while watching Mad Men in which the main character's alias was "Dick." The actors said it just fine, it wasn't bleeped out, BUT we had closed captioning on for a movie we'd watched the other night and lo and behold, for the hearing impaired the name "Dick" was shown as "D666." Each time, they had a bleeped word, they used the "666" with whatever designator they had. I wonder what the religious extremists make of that!

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: GUEST,Andymac
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 01:34 PM

I think it's interesting that the original poster only re-appeared once, and then only to fan the dying embers back to life. I'm on the UK side of the pond but wasn't it an American president who said " I may not agree with what you say, but I will die to defend your right to say it"?

Anyone who wants "swear" words or purported profanity removed is, in my opinion, a prude who doesn't understand the tradition nor appreciate the vernacular and the way in which lnguage evolves.

There are streets in England known as Grape Lane; their origins came from being called Gropecunt Lane. According to Wikipedia, the name was first known from 1561 and it was in regular usage.

So, since I could look up freely on wikipedia, I also looked around a bit but there was no "Sean Mc" complaining that wikipedia should clean up its act..

I couldn't agree more with the comments from Max and Joe.


Andymac

Subject: RE: When will Mudcat clean up its act?
From: PHJim
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 11:52 AM

I do not like seeing bad language being used to slander another poster nor used for shock value, but I'd hate to see the removale of "bawdy songs and backroom ballads", to quote either Oscar Brand or Ed McCurdy. These are a part of the folk tradition and they belong on this site.