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folk music with fusion tumors what to do

*#1 PEASANT* 09 Aug 10 - 10:33 PM
GUEST,Ranks 10 Aug 10 - 01:23 AM
Will Fly 10 Aug 10 - 03:50 AM
GUEST,Meggly 10 Aug 10 - 06:23 AM
GUEST,Meggly 10 Aug 10 - 06:25 AM
theleveller 10 Aug 10 - 07:30 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 10 Aug 10 - 07:43 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 10 Aug 10 - 07:50 AM
Will Fly 10 Aug 10 - 07:52 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 10 Aug 10 - 07:52 AM
GUEST,Meggly 10 Aug 10 - 07:58 AM
GUEST,Jan Burda 10 Aug 10 - 08:49 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 10 Aug 10 - 08:59 AM
GUEST,Meggly 10 Aug 10 - 09:56 AM
The Fooles Troupe 11 Aug 10 - 09:35 AM
Rob Naylor 11 Aug 10 - 09:53 AM
Rob Naylor 11 Aug 10 - 10:02 AM
Will Fly 11 Aug 10 - 10:17 AM
John P 11 Aug 10 - 12:30 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 11 Aug 10 - 04:30 PM
John P 11 Aug 10 - 05:06 PM
Will Fly 11 Aug 10 - 05:18 PM
Art Thieme 11 Aug 10 - 07:55 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 11 Aug 10 - 08:45 PM
John P 11 Aug 10 - 09:21 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 11 Aug 10 - 09:30 PM
John P 12 Aug 10 - 08:26 AM
Will Fly 12 Aug 10 - 08:51 AM
dick greenhaus 12 Aug 10 - 12:10 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 12 Aug 10 - 12:27 PM
GUEST,Meggly 12 Aug 10 - 12:44 PM
Will Fly 12 Aug 10 - 02:01 PM
Smokey. 12 Aug 10 - 04:18 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 12 Aug 10 - 04:23 PM
Smokey. 12 Aug 10 - 04:27 PM
John P 12 Aug 10 - 06:00 PM
Smokey. 12 Aug 10 - 07:19 PM
Reinhard 13 Aug 10 - 01:57 AM
GUEST,Meggly 13 Aug 10 - 07:45 AM
*#1 PEASANT* 13 Aug 10 - 02:54 PM
Smokey. 13 Aug 10 - 03:30 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 13 Aug 10 - 04:23 PM
Smokey. 13 Aug 10 - 04:52 PM
Folknacious 13 Aug 10 - 07:38 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 14 Aug 10 - 06:35 AM
theleveller 14 Aug 10 - 10:04 AM
Rob Naylor 14 Aug 10 - 10:42 AM
Smokey. 14 Aug 10 - 12:46 PM
Smokey. 14 Aug 10 - 02:40 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 15 Aug 10 - 12:08 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 15 Aug 10 - 12:10 PM
Smokey. 15 Aug 10 - 05:49 PM
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Subject: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Aug 10 - 10:33 PM

Listening to cambridge festival coverage via
BBC

The music seems mostly to have ugly fusion tumors all over it.

How do we remove them.

As Mike Harding candidly reported=- old festivals used to have more real folk communities and groups participating

Today he said it was much too much mainstream

Perhaps when folk music swims in the main stream it gets
fusion tumors

Maybe they need irradiation or chemo treatment.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: GUEST,Ranks
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 01:23 AM

Conrad,

I know what you mean. Everyone is trying to invent something new and plays around with the music.
I am convinced, that first you have to know the Original, before you can change it.
All over the world, there are Bands which advertise themeselves as new folk music. That is boring, because at the end of the day it is not new. The Irish Bands then are a mixture of Bothy Band and De Dannan with some jazzy guitar chords in between. On the other end you have countless pogues-clones.
The exceptions can be counted on one hand!
It seems, that if you want to play folk music and want to get bookings, you can play anything but folk music. If you have a fancy haircut as well, you certainly will get the attention of the Folk-Journalism!


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 03:50 AM

[No intention in my reply to try and define folk music...]

Depends on your point of view and your musical tastes, Conrad. I know what you mean but you'll never stop musicians experimenting musically - never. Whether such experiments work or not depends on the taste of the individual - beauty is in the ears of the listener, after all.

As for "fusion", well... I recall Davy Graham's guitar accompaniment to Shirley Collins's voice on the "Folk Roots, New Routes" album of over 40 years ago. It sounded wonderful to me then and sounds wonderful to me now - the blending of jazzy/bluesy/far-Eastern sounds with traditionally sung folk songs worked beautifully. My taste, of course - perhaps not yours.

If you have any creativity within you as a musician, then experimentation will happen. Happens all the time in the jazz world and always has done. Why should any other musical form be totally immune? Think of Jan Garbarek and the Hilliard Ensemble with "Officium"...


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: GUEST,Meggly
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:23 AM

Fossil, The Leveller might have put it more gently but I can sympathise with his frustration.

There are numerous threads on here confusing personal taste with absolute musical merit.

The tone of the original post does not invite any discussion and in my experience sometimes a timely 'F off' is warranted. There is no difference in spirit between the original post and Levellers response; therefore it's only the swearing you object to.

#1 Peasant, it depends on whether you think the tumours are benign or malignant. Some of us like them in context. If people had never experimented we'd still all be playing nose-flutes or hitting bones against rocks or uttering gutteral sounds describing our latest mammoth kill.


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: GUEST,Meggly
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:25 AM

Someone's removed both the Leveller's and the Fossil's posts and now my post doesn't make any sense. I'm not happy about that. The Leveller said what he thought and Fossil countermanded.



----- Leveller's post was personally abusive. Fossil's comment made no sense in its absence. Your (considered) post crossed with the deletion, unfortunately. JoeClone--------


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 07:30 AM

"The Leveller might have put it more gently"

Quite frankly, life's too short.


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 07:43 AM

If people had never experimented we'd still all be playing nose-flutes or hitting bones against rocks or uttering gutteral sounds describing our latest mammoth kill.

Now that's what I call folk!

Otherwise, Conrad - many thanks for giving me a title for the wee piece I was working on earlier today; and having a title, it has conceptual focus & closure. Hear it at Soundcloud: Sedayne : Folk Fusion Tumour 10-8-10. You'll no doubt recognise it as a variant of Sair Fyeld Hinny, hence the working title Step a Syke but I like Folk Fusion Tumour best; & as tumours go, it's pretty benign.


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 07:50 AM

I am honored


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 07:52 AM

That's a nice, chilled Soundcloud track. Love the visuals - like a worm growing a new skin...


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 07:52 AM

Perhaps if fusion tumor music shared the stage and venues a bit more equitably with older genres there would not be the sense of malignancy.
In the coverage of Cambridge Festival only a tiny bit was old folk.


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: GUEST,Meggly
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 07:58 AM

"Perhaps if fusion tumor music shared the stage and venues a bit more equitably with older genres there would not be the sense of malignancy.
In the coverage of Cambridge Festival only a tiny bit was old folk."

Ah, but then that's a different issue. There's plenty of folk music and folk music with tumour at the festivals, but I suppose the Radio made a commercial decision to go with the tumour.

I am partial to a bit of nose-flute-mammoth-kill music myself, but I also like it with a side of electric guitar.


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: GUEST,Jan Burda
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 08:49 AM

A major problem with fools is that they are not capable of knowing they're fools. And as long as 'CREATIVITY' is rewarded and worshiped, even in a tiny way, we will have to listen to throwaway music. This is true with the "FOLK" genre. It's cheaper to produce, and a lack of quality/talent/professionalism is often expected. Folk music used to be made/played for one's enjoyment, not to sell.


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 08:59 AM

Cheers, Will - and you're welcome, Conrad.

I doubt the BBC would cover the sessions and singounds, assuming such things happen at Cambridge! At the Durham Folk Party this year the only tumour in sight was my fiddle & my wife's banjo, but the BBC weren't there either, nor were they at the Morpeth Gathering where following our Twilight Tales we decamped to a pub wherein several Northumbrian Pipers were gathered in the corner doing things just beautifully. I'd say there's more stuff happening without tumours these days, which doesn't mean there isn't some vibrant music being made and new ground being broken with resprect of, say, Unaccompanied Ballad Singing, or whatever, just I don't think novelty is the deciding factor in such matters. It would be nice to the BBC to give some coverage to The Rank and File though, to the Fringes of such events where the real stuff tends to happen. All these years I've been going to Fylde and I don't think I've made it into the Marine Hall once...

Take heart! There is reason enough to be cheerful for all I shouldn't wonder, whatever your needs.


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: GUEST,Meggly
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 09:56 AM

Oh dear!

I'm hoping Jan's tongue is firmly in one of their cheeks. Creativity should not be rewarded? Again, confusion between personal taste and absolute merit.

I hate to bespoil your vision of what Folk Music is. But the folk music that 'used to be made/played for one's enjoyment' got created out and is what is now known as 'pop' music. This happened through a process of fusion with other cultures. Now those people who like making music for themselves have the option of jamming to the blues, forming a thrash-metal band or spinning some decks, either in private or in front of a small audience.

Luckily for those that like it some of the original material got preserved and can still be sung and enjoyed in dedicated settings. It is a shame that there are not more settings, but at least it hasn't died entirely. 'Folk fusion' musicians are simply doing what others did before but later and with different influences, some of it works, some of it is dire, again personal taste. But that is not to say the process isn't valid. Anyway, there's nowt we could do about it, innovation is one of the traits that got us all the way from the Savannah to our 4x4s and it will, sure as eggs came before the chicken, evolve music in ways we can't imagine.


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 09:35 AM

"If you have any creativity within you as a musician, then experimentation will happen."

This is a euphemism for "forgetting the real notes/words and just faking it".

I'm speaking from experience, I'm not making this up, you know.... :-P

Reminded of one night I grabbed the wrong row on the Stradella Bass on the P/A - got thru a couple of bars (sounded bloody terrible!) - stopped, and said "Well, I really stuffed that up! - how about I start again, pushing the right buttons?"

I noticed a couple of interesting facial expressions - shock was definitely one of them.... :-)


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 09:53 AM

Well, here's a rap "song" with a folky tumor on it, so it does work both ways, occasionally:

Tom Williams Does Dizzee Rascal

I don't thik they're doing that for the commercial kudos, though surprisingly, a recording of them doing this version *was* broadcast on BBC Radio 1 Thursday! It took the views for that link up from a few hundred to over 7,000 so a few people must have found it interesting enough to follow up :-)


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 10:02 AM

This is the recorded version:

Tom Williams Bonkers Recording

Apparently Dizzee Rascal now does a "countried-up" version of his original rap at his live shows, after hearing the Tom Willaims version, so, horrible or not, it's had an effect!


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 10:17 AM

"If you have any creativity within you as a musician, then experimentation will happen."

This is a euphemism for "forgetting the real notes/words and just faking it".


Not necessarily so. It's usually about knowing your material and genres of music thoroughly - so thoroughly that the urge to extend the boundaries of it becomes very strong. You rarely get creative and fluid improvisations from jazz musicians (for example) who don't have a thorough knowledge of the harmonic and melodic structure of the tunes they play.

There seems to be some contempt for the word "creativity" on the part of some posters here. How sad, if so.


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: John P
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 12:30 PM

I think electric guitar and bagpipes sound great playing in harmony. I think Middle Eastern drumming enhances some Western European tunes. I think lots of British ballads become a bit more exciting when played in 7/8 time. I also like bagpipes by themselves and straight-up unaccompanied ballads. The two ways of playing don't detract from each other. Lots of hard-core, acoustic-loving folkies list Steeleye Span as their gateway band.

I'm curious as to which musical additions are considered tumors and which are not. I play the cittern, an instrument that was invented and become popular for folk music within my lifetime. Are citterns tumors? What about guitars? What did folk music sound like before everyone started strumming? My own tastes tell me that piano accompaniment to dance tunes terrible. Is it also a tumor that ought to get a put-down on Mudcat? Is there a cut-off date before which there was "real" folk music and after which various things became tumors? Or is the problem more specifically with musicians who combine genres? How, then, do we explain away Cajun music, blues, bluegrass, etc. etc.?

A side note is that rock music not as much a genre as a format. Any genre of music can be played with bass and drums and made to sound like rock music. Most people in the world grew up listening to rock music of one kind or another. Why shouldn't music of any type get played in a current format?

And, mostly, how does it hurt any other form of folk music? And why should anyone care what other musicians do, other than saying, "I like that" or "I don't like this"?

John


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 04:30 PM

Too many tumors and you cant find the folk then maybe you need to go to a tumor music festival

the point is not that the music is bad or not creative but it is creative outside a genre. Within the genre creativity is good but it is noticed when the creativity turns into a tumor.

It is IMHO important to have sufficient tumor less folk performers at a festival and yes get them broadcast. The music at the root needs to be sufficiently celebrated and given time and place.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: John P
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 05:06 PM

And I'm still wondering which of the hundreds of additions to folk music that have taken place over the last 600 years are tumors and which are just a part of the music. ANY significant change to a genre of music takes place outside the genre.


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 05:18 PM

The music at the root needs to be sufficiently celebrated and given time and place.

What root?


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: Art Thieme
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 07:55 PM

from Bob Franke---this quote:

As long as sentimental super-salesmen make it big and tell it wrong, I will make it small - and tell it right!

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 08:45 PM

The "isn't everything a tumor argument" is interesting however it is a narrow view.

Yes on a microscopic level everything is a constant adaptation but when you step back the apples can be seen to go in one basket and the oranges in another.

It all depends on what degree of resolution you use for the picture.

And what purpose you have.

There can be an argument made that all recordings should go in the same genre bin in the record store. However that would not help those looking for a specific type of music.

I tend to operate on the level of resolution that lets me separate genres so they can be located and or avoided but also so that they can be included, given stages and an opportunity to continue to be heard. Their fair share of air time so that they can go on to influence other emerging genres.

So if you think all music is the same simply zoom out and you will find significant genre differences as striking as the similarities.

Yes we can have a diverse folk music festival tumors and all however we have to be sure to carve up the time and space so that all are included. That means the "root music" of a tradition or as Harding said in the broadcast the "old folk" after all if the tumor fusion people had not access to it they could have never grown their tumors onto it in the first place. Same with jazz. Yes we can have jazz but it is good to have access to the original resources from which it was created.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: John P
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 09:21 PM

I haven't seen any evidence that the music that's at the root of Roots Music has gone anywhere. If you're trying to find it on the radio, though, you're looking in the wrong place.


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 09:30 PM

You will note that I began this by reviewing coverage of the Cambridge music festival which seemed to me extremely tumor heavy. I listen to sunday folk, harding show, folkwaves regularly. There is certainly a good amount there regularly however often singer songwriter and other fusionists seem to dominate individual programs more often than does
"old folk" dominate the occasional individual program.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: John P
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 08:26 AM

Conrad, is there any way to get you to me specific about what you mean by tumors?

What tradition are you complaining about?

What additions to that tradition are you complaining about? Please be specific so there can be some basis for actual discussion.

Are there additions to traditions that you don't think are tumors?

On a slightly different subject: Why do you think it's OK to refer to other musicians' efforts as "tumors"? It seems amazingly egotistical to me.

John


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 08:51 AM

It's not only egotistical, it's contemptuous and unnecessarily demeaning.


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 12:10 PM

If it's bad, it tends to get forgotten. One hopes.


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 12:27 PM

I think tumors are a great visual reference point that works.
Nothing wrong with most tumors

Tumors do get in the way

Even the good ones are often cut off just to make life less difficult

However with fusion music the more tumors the merrier which is fine, valid and real....

However Instead of their own art form these folks take another inhabit its body and put out tumors of what are called fusions that cover up the original.

So in effect they are trying to scrape by, gain access when they barely resemble what they claim to be the nature of the host body.

In other genres musicians scrapped the concept of being the host body and after a point recognized that they were something new.

Jazz for example honestly budded off from both Negro Spiritual, folk, and gospel.

Hey we are no longer a shadow of a past form our forms we are our own organizm.

So music covered with tumors is neither here or there.

I dont mean to put them down.

The two things I suggest are:

1. Dont take over the available venues and outlets such that other genres (old folk if you will or even 6os folk revival) are pushed out.

2. When you are more tumor than original inspiration (host tradition)
admit it and find a distinct name for yourself, bin in the record store and festival type.

Just remove the tumors weigh them and compare with the weight of whatever traditional host remains. Should be easy and tumors always grow back.

Then also one could simply give the tumors a hair cut for a track or several so that the host tradition stands out more.

Should be fun.

No I was not implying cancer. (anyone dealing with dogs knows the types I am talking about)
However someone could pick on that and run too.

Conrad Bladey
Ethno-peasant


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: GUEST,Meggly
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 12:44 PM

So you're saying that tumours are a) OK, but b) as long as they're not anywhere near any venues that are 'designated' as something else.

Umm, I see, but what about the people that like the root and the tumour and want to see them in the same venue. Where do they fit into your scheme? As far as I can tell, all of this theorising is simply to do with your annoyance that a radio station chose to focus on so-called Nu-folk. At least the music you wanted to watch was available actually at the venue.

You've still not answered John Ps questions.

I don't know what kind of tumours are OK in the dog world, but I suggest that, contrary to your suggestion, we leave the metaphor with the canines. Last year I was diagnosed with a tumour, and I have no wish to see a very traumatic experience trivialised by someone who wants to turn a personal gripe into a public campaign.


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 02:01 PM

No I was not implying cancer.

Oh yeah? This is from your original post:

Perhaps when folk music swims in the main stream it gets
fusion tumors

Maybe they need irradiation or chemo treatment.


Mmm...


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: Smokey.
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 04:18 PM

Perhaps 'offshoots' might be more apt than 'tumours'?

But surely, the existence of offshoots prove the availability of the.. original stuff, whatever that is meant to be..


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 04:23 PM

I guess tumors are just more graphic. There are people who would be traumatized by many things. I am sorry but it was unintended. You can treat harmless tumors with irradiation and or chemo as well or sometimes they just slice them off.

Offshoots implies too much connectivity.
Tumors grow out but do not resemble the host they obscure it.

I do note that they came somehow from the host genre

Conrad


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: Smokey.
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 04:27 PM

But the offshoots are connected by varying degrees, and it's important, to some, to be able to identify the origins. This, of course, can lead back to the origins and generate new interest.


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: John P
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 06:00 PM

Conrad, I'm afraid you've turned yourself into a waste of time. Get specific about what you're talking about or lose the charm of my conversation. All we know so far, after many posts, is that you don't like something. You haven't said what that is, so it's hard to justify spending any more time on you.

Perhaps, if you want to communicate with people, you should take care to actually communicate.


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: Smokey.
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 07:19 PM

All this talk of tumours sounds very negative to me. Musical fusions can just as easily be good as bad, and even then it's largely subjective. The 'original genre' is not obscured by it though, it's highlighted if anything and in this particular case has never been more freely and widely available. I don't see what the problem is.


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: Reinhard
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 01:57 AM

Oh, Peasant's world view is quite simple as has been shown in every thread he graced us with:

Any development over maybe hundreds of years that led to the folk songs in the form he knows them was healthful grow. Now these songs are sacrosant and must nor be changed in any way any more. So any further development must be cancer.


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: GUEST,Meggly
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 07:45 AM

"Offshoots implies too much connectivity.
Tumors grow out but do not resemble the host they obscure it."

As you haven't stated who you are accusing here I am going to have to make some assumptions about the type of music you mean and so, in my opinion, much folk-fusion music does resemble its roots. It may even lead people who wouldn't have otherwise into exploring the original music. What's more, the juxtaposition can even throw into relief the roots of the music making them even more meaningful and evident. And, heaven forbid, it might even lead to more tolerance.

Once a type music stops resembling its roots then you've moved into a different genre entirely.

Finally, for I'm off out of this discussion, you would always treat a tumour whether benign or malignant, you would never leave it growing. Once excised from the body it dies because it is not a being in itself. Therefore with your metaphor you are not allowing the tumour music to live independently of its roots, you are wishing to annihilate it entirely from the world. That's not a very nice point of view.


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 02:54 PM

I thnk they can stay just so there is equal place for the tumor less and that they should consider a real name for themselves other than fusion when there is not much more than tumor left


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: Smokey.
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 03:30 PM

That's what already happens. Admittedly 'the market' generally tends to favour creativity, musicality and musicianship, but so it should, in my opinion. Nevertheless, the kind of material which I assume you are referring to has its place and has never been more available or publicised. To over-represent it as you suggest would, I think, be counter-productive to all concerned.


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 04:23 PM

"the market" is focused on what sells not upon what needs preservation and research and discovery. It does not focus upon skills that need to be preserved and taught. It would just as soon substitute say a trumpet for a traditional instrument just to make a fast buck. The anything's ok philosophy re-enforces this.

What is wrong with putting tumor fusion in its own category and perhaps give it the recognition it deserves?

Why must it compete at all with the "old folk"
Or with "folk revival"

Conrad


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: Smokey.
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 04:52 PM

"the market" is focused on what sells not upon what needs preservation and research and discovery.

Of course it is, it's a market. If it didn't, it couldn't exist. It does its best to cater for minority interests but there are a lot of those. The market is wider than it ever has been before, both in supply and demand.

It does not focus upon skills that need to be preserved and taught.

Now there's a surprise.. Do you think it should, and what are they?

What is wrong with putting tumor fusion in its own category and perhaps give it the recognition it deserves?

Nothing - they do as soon as it's commercially possible to. However, to date they haven't been clueless or tactless enough to label anything 'Tumour Fusion'.

Why must it compete at all with the "old folk" Or with "folk revival"

It doesn't, and I'm not sure why you think it does.


By the way, the history of the trumpet goes back a wee bit further than 'folk revival'..


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: Folknacious
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 07:38 PM

If people had never experimented we'd still all be playing nose-flutes or hitting bones against rocks or uttering gutteral sounds describing our latest mammoth kill.

You can bet that when they were first uttering these new fangled gutteral sounds there was a bloke round the back with a stone axe getting all upset. Anyway, I never heard a mammoth sing!!


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 06:35 AM

There was music way before there was a market

The idea that we need a market at all is absurd

But now it is dominating everything.

As genres are added and remain preserved, not lost we have to be more careful to distribute access to the media, venues and resources evenly.

In the past genres came and went were lost and decayed. That is the natural process. Because that doesnt happen any more we have more choices but management of access becomes the issue. We need to be sure that as many genres are given access.

No the market should not tell us anything. The market needs to be managed.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: theleveller
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 10:04 AM

As folk fusion tumours don't exist but are just a luridly sick analogy dreamed up by Conrad for god knows what reason, there's no need for anything to be done. Just let people get on with listening to and playing the music they like and, if they don't like it, leave it to those who do.

As for an American telling people in Britain what they should listen to on the radio and what should be put on at our festivals, the arrogance (or, perhaps, stupidity) is truly mind-boggling.


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 10:42 AM

The idea that "the market" is "dominating everything" is also absurd.

The young musicians I know are mostly unsigned. They obviously like it when people download their stuff, or buy their CDs/ vinyl, but they're there primarily to play their music and live for live events, often very small scale and where they get little if any remuneration.

The truly "musically-minded" segment of "youth" as far as I can see are pretty anti-commercialism and the market and are much more likely to (a) listen to relatively obscure performers and (b) also make their own music rather than being "passive consumers" of commercial crap.

But this has always been the case. When I was young the "passive consumer" segment listened to Herman's Hermits and Freddie and the Dreamers (who our parents had heard of) while those of us who "felt" music as a bit more than backround noise were into "underground" bands that our parents had never heard of. Same these days, with "unsigned" replacing "underground".

Music of many genres is alive, healthy and kicking without regard to what "the market" says.


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 12:46 PM

There was music way before there was a market

The idea that we need a market at all is absurd

But now it is dominating everything.


The same could be said of food, or any other commodity, but it would still be bollocks. We know that no system is perfect, food industry, music industry etc., but any means of distribution is better than none at all. 'The market' is simply supply and demand and includes buyers as well as sellers. The world has grown a bit since "way before there was a market" and the public's tastes have widened considerably. Once the blinkers are off, you can't put them back on.

Meanwhile, I intend to follow the Leveller's excellent advice:

"Just let people get on with listening to and playing the music they like and, if they don't like it, leave it to those who do."


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 02:40 PM

As genres are added and remain preserved, not lost we have to be more careful to distribute access to the media, venues and resources evenly.

'Genres' only last as long as people like them. Horses don't buy CDs or listen to the radio.

In the past genres came and went were lost and decayed. That is the natural process. Because that doesnt happen any more we have more choices but management of access becomes the issue. We need to be sure that as many genres are given access.

I think the interweb is doing exactly that, and more effectively than ever before.

No the market should not tell us anything. The market needs to be managed.

I think you mean the music industry, but it already is being managed, and is struggling to hang on to any control it ever had over public tastes with the increased potential for independent communication that the internet provides. I think you really mean controlled to your liking.


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 12:08 PM

No not the music industry if that means printed and recorded music I mean the festivals, radio, televison (if any)


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 12:10 PM

It should not be always what people want to hear but what should be heard and regularly aired.

People may not even know of music that they could choose to hear if they heard it.

If you let the market run everything than not much will ever see the light of day and less and less with time will remain.


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Subject: RE: folk music with fusion tumors what to do
From: Smokey.
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 05:49 PM

So who is to decide what 'should be heard?' You?

When I refer to 'the market', I mean the whole lot from the top end of the music industry down to the lowliest of trad sessions, including the consumers/audiences. Who else is there to 'run everything?'

As soon as folk music becomes 'big' enough to be propagated by the media it is competing for attention with every other genre on offer, and in that real world environment far higher standards of production, presentation and musicianship are expected, generally speaking, than are apparent in most traditional folk music, where those factors are not necessarily a priority. If you were to flood the airwaves with it, people would switch off. It is a minority interest, and I think the level of coverage it gets is generally sufficient. Leave it be, I say - it's being looked after by people who are doing a grand job already. If you want there to be more, try putting on your own festival and selecting your own choice of artists - don't just sit there moaning because no-one else has done it.

And I say again, the opportunities for people to extend their field of tastes are expanding all the time, not shrinking, particularly now that 'hard copy' is not the only option and the major labels can't dictate as much as they used to.


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