The Blues???

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 10:41 AM

Come on in my kitchen, Sitting on top of the world, and also It Hurts Me Too

That melody keeps coming up!

All good stuff...

Pete.

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: maeve
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 11:02 AM

Bobert must be having a kitchen party at his kinfolks' house.

Here's an opportunity for anyone in the area A pair of songwriting and guitar workshops in Ohio and Massachusetts:

http://smither.com/workshops-with-chris/
"There is still room available in two upcoming guitar & songwriting workshops Chris will be conducting:

Fur Peace Ranch (Darwin, OH) – October 8-11, 2010

The Mighty Albert (Ashfield, MA) – January 14-17, 2011 (Just announced!)"

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: maeve
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 11:35 AM

many Chris Smither YouTube videos and interviews

including:
Chris Smither "Statesboro Blues" http://ckuik.com/Chris_Smither

then there are some good cuts here:

http://www.myspace.com/chrissmither

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 11:40 AM

I think Hootenanny is missing the point. The Patton and James tracks she mentions come from quite a lot later, and if you really want something interesting, try John Lee Hooker's take on "I Left My Heart in San Francisco". A lot of it can be traced back to John Hammond's presentation of Big Bill Broonzy at the "Spirituals to Swing" concert, when despite the fact that Broonzy had been resident in Chicago for years and normally wore flash suits, Hammond got him to dress in overalls and be anounced as coming straight from his farm in Arkansas! The Bluesman as noble savage!

As I said, read Wald's book.

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: Bettynh
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 12:27 PM

I'm a bit confused reading this. I keep flashing back to this scene: I'm in the midst of crying-twins madness. It's February, dusk, and ONE of them won't sleep. In the manner of
Rosalee Sorrels, I pick him up firmly and rock him to the music I'm playing on the stereo - Texas work songs. Rocking him and stomping around the room I sing along "O Grizzely, Grizzely Bear, O Grizzely, Grizzely Bear..." It works like a charm. So - can you honestly state that I couldn't feel the blues then? Can you deny that my son was immersed in this music from infancy? The music was recorded, but I chose it.

Doc Watson tells about having a windup victrola and listening to blues records when he was 5 or 6 years old (that would be 1928-9). Is he a "copyist," then? If so, then just about anyone who played after about 1925 risks that label.

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 03:29 PM

Bettynh,

Am I to assume from yor posting that you would describe Doc Watson as a blues singer? I don't think he makes that claim.

Dave what point am I missing? Patton and James are quite a lot later than what?

Re Elijah Wald I have read his work and enjoyed doing so but I have also read most others that have been published over many years. However my knowledge of blues music and musicians doesn't only come from books.

Hoot

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: Bettynh
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 04:39 PM

Doc Watson describes himself as "just this guy, you know?" I think he's a skilled blues singer and player. Certainly you can't argue his skill, so what keeps him from being a blues singer? The color of his skin?
Milk Cow Blues

Anyway, we can't ask Robert Johnson if he listened to other blues singers. Doc is of his generation.

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 04:51 PM

Well, gol danged!!!

I come home after drivin' Ms. Dasiy an' the grandyoungin' all over DC and here there are 106 posts to this blues thread!!!

Thank you all... If I go on tonight I will go on in peace... Sho nuff will...

BTW ya'll... Any of you within' driving distance of Luray, Va. I'll be promotin' a juke night at the Performing Arts Center some time this coming winter... I think it will be the last wewek in January and I will have not one but two bands that will be performing the following week at the International Blues Challenge (IBC) in Memphis the following week: The Bush League representing the James River Blues Society and Clarence "The Blueman" Turner and his band representing the Baltimore Blues Society... Rounding out the entertainment will be solo bluesman Pops Walker and yers truely "Sidewalk Bob" me playing both solo and with Clarence's band... More later when I firm the dates but will definately be a nice mix of styles and sound...

Thanks again fir ya'll helping us get to 100...

B~

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 05:50 PM

"Patton and James are quite a lot later than what?"

The origins of the blues of course.

Would you describe Bessie Smith as a blues singer? How about Jelly Roll Morton? Blind Blake?

What about the Hammond effect?

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 05:58 PM

Bettynh

I do know what Doc Watson can do thankyou having seen him live on many occasions since just after Ralph Rinzler convinced him to start touring. Of course he is an amazing musician no doubt about that and he can sing blues, but so can I after a fashion but that Doesn't make me a blues musician, it would make me someone that sometimes sings or plays a blues. You ask what keeps Doc from being a blues singer. Well if you have ever been in Doc's neck of the woods and also spent time in Robinsonville, Mississippi (as you mention Robert Johnson) It would be pretty obvious that the environment and culture is entirely different.

Robert Johnson is believed to have been born in May 1911. Doc isn't yet 99.

You say we can't ask Robert Johnson if he listened to other blues singers. Did anyone suggest that he didn't. There is enough recorded evidence that makes it obvious that he did.

Good listening.

Hoot

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: melodeonboy
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 06:02 PM

"Thanks - might write a blues song about computers!
Any suggestions for a title anyone?"

No doubt it'll be released on the Trojan record label, then?! :)

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 07:36 PM

Shoot, we know that Robert listened to Son House... There's a story of Son playin' some juke and takin' a breal and Robert being like, ahhhh, 14 or 15 and jumpin' up on stage and grabbin' Son's geetar and tryin' to play it and folks havin' to chase him around to get the geetar back off Robert... I mean, ya'll listen to Some of the Alan Lomax tapes and there were literally hundreds of people playin' blues all over Mississppi, Arkansas, Tennesee, Texas, Alabama... LOmax recorded 'um in Georgia, too... But people were playin' it everywhere in the south and mid-atlantic and then folks movin' north to Chicgao fir jobs and to get off the plantations and then they playin' it everywhere...

So Robert had his ears on big time...

Well, melodeonboy... You need to Google up Johnny Winter's "TV Blues"... It's a great song that deal with these new fangled thingies... "If you don't get the picture workin', I'm gonna' do some work on you"... I mean, if you can make a good blues songs outta yer TV not workin' then the pudder can't be that far behind...

Hey, don't look at me... I write "old school"...

B~

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 07:47 PM

Melodeonboy: "Hard Drivin' Blues?"

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: Janie
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 07:50 PM

Some classic female Blues Musicians

Beverly "Guitar" Watkins

Etta Baker

Billie Holiday Strange Fruit

Sister Rosetta Tharpe

Memphis Minnie on Guitar

Memphis Minnie - guitar and vocals

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: Janie
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 08:05 PM

Can't help myself, gotta toss Maria Muldaur, Janis Joplin and Bonnie Raitt into the mix.

Maria

Janis

Bonnie

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 09:13 PM

How about Big Mama Thorton, Janie???

Rory Block???

Victria Spivey???

Lot more womenz, too...

Melonie Mason??? Oh, she is so hot, too... Gotta give here a call...

Elenor Ellis...

Mary Flowers...

Annie Raines...

Joan Fenton...

Lotta womenz... And all good blues players...

B~

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: Janie
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 09:49 PM

Bobert,

Thanks. That why I'm here, to learn. Feel free to post some links, you lazy-a$$ed bluesman, before I have time to run them down and post them myself. (And why do ladies sing the blues;^)

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 10:05 PM

Well, Janie... You know that I ain't no lazy-ass bluesman... Just technically challenged...

All I can do is put 'um out there an' if folks can do them blue clickies then that's great... I do 'um if I knew how...

Guess I am a retarded bluesman...

(You can't say that, Boberdz...)

What I say???

B~

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: Boho
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 10:56 PM

September issue of Acoustic Guitar magazine is also a blues special, with tab for an arrangement of Going Down the Road Feelin' Bad based on Etta Baker in C and E with standard tuning, and Skip James's Devil Got My Woman in open Dm, along with a whole load more Skip James licks n tricks. In about a year or so I might have GDtRFB under control - so far I can't even play the first bar without my whole hand seizing up.

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: Janie
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 11:15 PM

Big Momma Thornton

Rory Block (first impression is I like her guitar work a lot and not so crazy about her vocals.)

Victoria Spivey

Melanie Mason Again, she sounds technically good in terms of the guitar, but to my ear, ruled entirely by visceral response, both the guitar and the voice lack authentic emotional expression.

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 07:02 AM

Yes, yes, I know she was a gospel singer, but just listen to that guitar and the blues in her voice...

Sister Rosetta Tharpe

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 07:07 AM

By the way, for those who don't know this, it was recorded around 1964 at a disused railway platform near Manchester in England, part of a blues tour that rocked this country.

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 09:05 AM

Yeah, that is some hot blues, W-Fly...

Okay, Janie.... Melonie's voice does leave a little bit to be desired but I'm kinda partial to her 'cause seems every time I have run into her she remembers me... It's kinda a long story but its all good...

Rory Block knew Son House and learned quite a bit of her geetar licks off him...

Big Mama Thornton, BTW, recorded "Hound Dog" long before Elvis's '56 recording but then again Elvis knew alot about them old blues folks and wasn't shy about lifting songs... Remember "Mystery Train"??? Good example of a song Elvis borrowed...

B~

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 09:10 AM

Hey Will
I remember that tour, all the team came down to the Roundhouse in Wardour Street one evening when Cyril Davies was running the blues and barrelhouse club there. I made the acquaintance of Cousin Joe that evening and he was very wary when I bought him a whisky - and no I wasn't playing the part of a boring JMF (Jazz Mans Friend) as George Webb used call such people. It was Joe's first trip to the UK and understandably might be feeling a little less relaxed. However when I met him again in New Orleans and on his return visits to Europe he was a different man. Life and soul of any gathering. What days they were with regular visits by so many greats, Muddy upsetting the jazzers with his amplified Guitar and Spann's miced(?) up piano and on his next trip playing acoustic guitar and not understanding why the by-then younger blues fanatics were less than enthusiastic.

Hoot

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: Janie
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 09:20 AM

Oh Yes, Will Fly.

Another of the gospel/blues greats, imo,


Mavis Staples

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: Janie
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 09:33 AM

Mavis sings Stephen Foster

What are Blues?

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: Bettynh
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 09:33 AM

I dunno, Hoot. Doc was born in 1923. Both were came from southern rural backgrounds, albeit very different areas. That's still within one generation for me. The important thing for me was realizing that rural wasn't isolated anymore, even in the late 20s. Anyhow, I'm most upset at the idea that the blues have to be fossilized to be real.

Does this qualify as blues? He certainly uses a blues scale and writes from pain.

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 09:39 AM

It was a great tour, Hoot, wasn't it? I remember seeing Sonny Terry & Brownie McGhee at a club in Blackburn. Sonny was feeling tired after the gig and a mate of mine walked him home to his hotel. Brownie went with a load of us to a party after the club gig and played into the samll hours, fortified by scotch. What a night.

I also remember seeing Memphis Slim at Leeds University, rocking the evening away, and recall quite a few sessions when Champion Jack Duprée rolled out his barrelhouse blues at some forgotten pub in the East End of London.

I never got to see Cyril before he died, but I have some treasured recordings of the All Stars which I still enjoy. "Country Line Special" and "Chicago Calling" with Cyril on blues harp and vocal, Long John Baldry on backing vocals, Davy Graham in there at some point, Korner, Nicky Hopkin on piano... not bad for white boys, eh? :-)

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 11:26 AM

Will,
Cyril was one English guy that got pretty close to that authentic sound and feel. Thursday nights at the Marquee in Oxford Street used to really steam. I knew Long John for a number of years and Cyril for the last two years or so that he was with us. Loaned me his 9 string guitar for a few weeks to try out and I also got a chance to pick his custom made 12 string with the gold plated fittings back stage one night when we got him a big gig at the Royal Albert Hall along with Peter, Paul and Mary and Ramblin Jack and others. I remember when Sleepy John Estes was "re-discovered" discussing it with Cyril. He said it couldn't be because Big Bill Broonzy had told Cyril that Estes was dead. Sadly Cyril was dead himself before Estes came over to Europe. Cyril went just as the blues boom was taking off in the UK and he missed visits by so many of his heroes. If he had still been around it would have been the Cyril Davies Allstars backing Little Walter at is first UK gig at the Marquee instead of John Baldry and the later version of almost the same band.
Sorry if I am rambling but it was a great scene and now virtually all the giants of the blues have gone. C'est la vie.

Hoot

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: leeneia2
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 09:19 PM

thanks for all the links. (today's too busy for me to follow them)

here's a link to a polished piano blues piece, a kind that may not have been mentioned before:

bill e's site


When you get there, click on 'Dallas Blues' to hear a fine piece from 1912. If it says there's not enough memory, right click. That's what I have to do.

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 09:34 PM

Well, I love Mavis and I;m sure that most folks who appreciate good blues loves her music... It ain't exactly blues... Kinda gospelly...

Whitmore??? Also not to bluesy... That's what we call a mountain "moan"... Speed it up a tad and kick the bnajo into high gear an' he's ready for Galax or Floydfest...

Nice reading about Cyril Davies... Some good memories there...

B~

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: Max
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 10:40 PM

Hosting The Blues on WPSU FM at 10pm EST. Tune in online at http://wpsu.org/blues. Also hanging out in mudchat. More blues, yes.

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 11:37 PM

I was just coming in to post a link in here, Max. Great show, plenty of blues, tonight!!

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 07:18 AM

Leeneia,

If you enjoyed that piece then you might like to read more about it in a recent book "Long Lost Blues" Popular Blues in America, 1850 - 1920. University of Illinois Press.

The tune itself is very well known and well used. The performance is pleasant enough but I find the execution a bit stilted and what I would expect from a pianist playing from written music. For me it is too damn polite, he should loosen up and put some drive and feeling into it.
An excellent performer and only one among many blues piano players was Little Brother Montgomery from Kentwood, Louisiana. Try and hear some of his recordings made for the Bluebird label just as I am doing at present. Then of course there is Big Maceo Merriwether, Otis Spann, Will Ezell and dozens more.

Enjoy

Hoot

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 08:40 AM

Yeahm show me a piono player who has no need fir written music, thank you...

Like Ann Rabson or AnnieBlues (plays on several Cephas & Wiggins recordings) or Barrelhouse Bonnie... BTW, had the pleasure of having Ann Rabson sittin' on a a short set I did at the IceHouse Pub in Elkins, Wes Va. a few years back... Very nice...

Yo, Max... I'm workin' on gettin' a new service provider that will allow me to actaully have 'nuff juice to listen to internet radio... Glad to hear from ya'...

B~

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 03:50 PM

custom made 12 string with the gold plated fittings

That doesn't sound very blues to me...

Wild about you baby

Cut my wings

Pete

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 08:19 PM

Now that, ya'll, is the real blues... I mean, Hound Dog Taylor and Seasick Steve are a couple of the finest Mississippi groove players since the likes of Fred McDowell... Whew... That "Cut My Wings" with Steve poundin' away on that cardboard stomp-box is the *shits*... Ya'll like that you would have loved the lated Wille King... And you'd love the still-very-much-alive Ben Prestage... Google him up and have up a treat... And if Ben don't hook ya' then Googl;e up Richard Johnston... Between Seasick Steve, Willie Kind, Ben and Richard if they don't make believers outta you then ya'll need need to call the undertakewr to come fir ya, ya hear???

Thanks Burton fir sharin' those two priceless links and...

...gimme back my wig... lol... Jus' funnin...

Sheet fire, ya'll!!! I mean this is the blues...

B~

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 01:46 PM

Here are some more great female Blues singers, maybe over-obvious choices but if you're just learning about the Blues, essential. For some reason when I tried to post 3 links in one thread it won't post so I'm going to try 3 posts in succession. These tracks are each notable for some pretty well known musicians accompanying the ladies.

Ma Rainey

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 01:49 PM

Bessie Smith

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 01:55 PM

Koko Taylor

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 08:15 PM

Yeah, 3 more fine ladies who also put out some fine blues... Big Koko Taylor fan here...

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: maeve
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 08:19 PM

Great links and discussion; thanks, everyone.

maeve

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 05:04 AM

Well I've listened to a fair number of the people noted on this thread now, and I have to say that I reckon Hoot's definition of what constitutes a "true" blues player/ singer and a "copyist" is, IMO, unnecessarily narrow.

Although I'm sure there's still poverty, racism and pain in the southern rural culture, I don't think that it can be the same level of nose-grinding poverty and constant overt racism that applied when the blues originally emerged. So by Hoot's criterion, as the culture has evolved somewhat, there can be no more (or very few) "true" blues artistes and the vast majority of current musicians playing blues *must* be "copyists" as they "haven't lived the culture".

I can't agree with that. It seems to be a similar backward-looking philosophy that some of the more conservative "folkies" on here espouse and would imply pickling the genre in aspic. Just to take one example: I've listened to a whole bunch of Eric Bibb's stuff now and I can't believe anyone would categorise him as a "copyist" despite his relatively privileged New York background.

Or maybe I just don't "get it" yet and need to listen to a whole bunch more stuff, when it'll suddenly become clear to me?

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: buddhuu
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 05:49 AM

Hey.

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: Green Man
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 07:19 AM

Got into blues in the 60's and it kind of stayed with me through being in a rock band, the army and after the army getting into folk. Its been a long road but when it comes down to it if the the music speaks to you, and you play it then you have what it takes. If your music speaks to others then you are blessed.

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 08:07 AM

Rob Naylor
"Although I'm sure there's still poverty, racism and pain in the southern rural culture, I don't think that it can be the same level of nose-grinding poverty and constant overt racism that applied when the blues originally emerged. So by Hoot's criterion, as the culture has evolved somewhat, there can be no more (or very few) "true" blues artistes and the vast majority of current musicians playing blues *must* be "copyists" as they "haven't lived the culture"."

So we disagree on width of definition. Conditions are somewhat improved but I believe that the people growing up under the current somewhat improved conditions chose to express themselves with "Rap". The most recent time that I was in Mississippi with two surviving blues musicians ther had been a recent Rap Festival which drew many thousands of people when the surviving juke joint probably housed a couple of dozen folks.

If you have ever been to Mississippi for instance you would soon discover just how much poverty still exists. But I've seen it in Chicago and Detroit too.

Hoot

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 08:58 AM

Well, when I happened on a blues website about 8 years ago this same disagreement was rampant... Some of the folks there were decidedly into "pre-war blues" meaning the folks who played and recorded their work before WW II... At the time I thought that was a very barrow definition and I still do...

Like I have said, I consider myself to be a "bluesman"... Yeah, I have copied others but I also have a wealth of other musical experiences which I have blended into my sound... I believe that I put out a sound that is unique... I also think that Eric Bibb has a unique sound... As do Carey Harris and Guy Davis, a couple other folks who were brought up in middle to upper middle class families...

I think it really comes down to the commitment level folks... I beleive I have made alot of the correct choices... I mean, I've been on three major pilgrimages to northern Mississippi and played with the Burnsides, the Kimbros, and listened and watched and soaked in everything around me... Teaching GED in the Richmond City jail where I was abpout the only white face, working at a drug rehab half-wat house where I was also about the only white face and living in rural areas around Richmond where agin I was about the only white face exposed me to alot of African American dialect and culture which I also soaked in...

I doono what else I could have done along the way to better prepare me to say "I'm a bluesman"... I mean, we all have trials and tribulations to draw emotions from... We've all had that one relationship go bad 'er that best buddy to be killed in Vietnam or in a car accident... That ain't somethin' exclusively for black plantation workers...

But, hey, that's just MO which one can take and a buck nine and get a 12 ounce cup of coffee at the MiniMart... lol...

BTW, ya'll... That Seasick Steve is one fine north Mississippi bluesman fir someone who didn't grow up on a plantation working "5 1/2 days a week (uless it rained)" (John Lee Hooker)...

BTW, Part 2... If anyone can find a clip of Ben Prestage and put a link to him I think that folks would really enjoy his stuff... I've known him for several years now and was forunate to be able to book him for a little concert series I co-coordiante in Luray when he was coming thru last summer... Great bluesman/msucian...

Opps... Ran over my time limit... Gotta go get on my tractor and play "plantation worker", i.e. the P-Vine's undergardener... lol...

B~

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: Bettynh
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 09:50 AM

Ben Prestage: Weed

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: Neil D
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 11:41 AM

Son House and Mike Bloomfield discussing the Blues

Subject: RE: The Blues???
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 12:36 PM

another couple fantastic clips... I love to see anything by Son House... Some folks might not know it but Son was also into preachin'... So that preachin' thing was always with him... I have a VCR tape (what's them???) of him doin' a torured monologue about playing blues on saturday night and then feelin' all this shame come Sunday mornin'... Very conflicted, Son was... Liked his womenz and he liked his whiskey, too...

Gonna get relegion,
goin' join the Baptist church
Gonna get religion
goin' join the Baptist church
Gonna become a Baptist preacher
so I don't have to work...

Thanks fir the clips, ya'll...

B~