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Bob Dylan Masters of war.

Related threads:
Tune/Chords Req: Masters of War (Bob Dylan) (8)
Lyr Req: Masters of War (Bob Dylan) (5)


The Sandman 18 Aug 10 - 03:44 PM
GUEST,Pierre at work been caught bunking off. 18 Aug 10 - 08:15 AM
GUEST,Pierre at work bunking off 18 Aug 10 - 08:12 AM
GUEST,Woodeneye 18 Aug 10 - 07:54 AM
Pierre Le Chapeau 18 Aug 10 - 06:01 AM
Bobert 17 Aug 10 - 12:39 PM
Little Hawk 17 Aug 10 - 11:19 AM
Folknacious 17 Aug 10 - 11:09 AM
pavane 17 Aug 10 - 10:44 AM
Rob Naylor 17 Aug 10 - 04:36 AM
GUEST,^&* 17 Aug 10 - 04:22 AM
GUEST 16 Aug 10 - 05:30 PM
Little Hawk 16 Aug 10 - 05:23 PM
Will Fly 16 Aug 10 - 09:31 AM
Rob Naylor 16 Aug 10 - 09:26 AM
Rafflesbear 16 Aug 10 - 09:02 AM
Bobert 16 Aug 10 - 08:38 AM
Beer 16 Aug 10 - 08:31 AM
pavane 16 Aug 10 - 05:32 AM
Rafflesbear 16 Aug 10 - 04:55 AM
Rob Naylor 16 Aug 10 - 03:34 AM
Little Hawk 16 Aug 10 - 02:21 AM
Beer 16 Aug 10 - 12:23 AM
Taconicus 15 Aug 10 - 10:52 PM
Bobert 15 Aug 10 - 01:09 PM
Taconicus 15 Aug 10 - 11:03 AM
Pierre Le Chapeau 14 Aug 10 - 05:52 PM
Little Hawk 14 Aug 10 - 01:45 PM
Little Hawk 13 Aug 10 - 10:11 PM
GUEST,Gerry 13 Aug 10 - 07:00 PM
Bobert 13 Aug 10 - 08:55 AM
GUEST 13 Aug 10 - 08:54 AM
GUEST,Gerry 13 Aug 10 - 08:48 AM
Rob Naylor 13 Aug 10 - 04:04 AM
Rafflesbear 13 Aug 10 - 03:18 AM
Little Hawk 12 Aug 10 - 09:44 PM
Bobert 12 Aug 10 - 08:50 PM
Bobert 12 Aug 10 - 08:22 PM
Little Hawk 12 Aug 10 - 07:24 PM
GUEST,Gerry 12 Aug 10 - 07:06 PM
Little Hawk 12 Aug 10 - 11:58 AM
Pierre Le Chapeau 12 Aug 10 - 10:34 AM
Will Fly 12 Aug 10 - 06:50 AM
greg stephens 12 Aug 10 - 06:36 AM
GUEST,Woodsie 12 Aug 10 - 06:32 AM
Dave Hanson 12 Aug 10 - 05:53 AM
pavane 12 Aug 10 - 05:32 AM
Pierre Le Chapeau 11 Aug 10 - 12:28 PM
Pierre Le Chapeau 11 Aug 10 - 11:59 AM
Pierre Le Chapeau 11 Aug 10 - 11:24 AM
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 03:44 PM

wasnt this tune nottumun town?was the tune wriytten by Jean Ritchie?or was nottamun town a song coolected ONLYfrom the RITCHIE FAMILY?
"A piece of folksong surrealism," is how Jean describes "Nottamun Town," dreamlike in its disorienting juxtapositions: "Ten thousand stood around me, and yet I's alone...." The family could trace their knowledge of the song back to Crockett Ritchie; according to Uncle Jason, "'hit's might neart sure to be about Nottingham in Old England.'"

The song was likely a product of the early mummers' plays, in which local actors would blacken their faces and turn their clothing inside out to escape recognition. Bob Dylan was not only influenced by the song's jumble of mixed-up, fantastical lyrics... but also melodically, as he borrowed the tune for "Masters of War"


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: GUEST,Pierre at work been caught bunking off.
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 08:15 AM

"Bloody Managers where I work are facists" The whole bloody shower of em?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: GUEST,Pierre at work bunking off
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 08:12 AM

I agree Woodeneye
Iam aware Jim and Theresa have done Masters of War"many times fore that reason I see no reason why they should be upset or pissed off at me doing it fore a first time.

If folk get upset because one decides to sing a song some one else does then the learning process fore new songs would be a pointless affair?



If any of the above two chosse to do any of my songs I wouildnt give a toss in fact I would encourage them?
Not discourage them.
Regards Pierre.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: GUEST,Woodeneye
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 07:54 AM

What! Last verse as well pete?

I don't think anybody will be offended as Jim and Theresa have sung it there mant times.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 06:01 AM

Whata Palarva"I started something off here have I not.
I progressing with Masters of War and hope to sing it tonight for the first time in full at my folk club.
Regards to all Pierre.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 12:39 PM

Have to agree with both WillFly and Rob-n... Yeah, when Dylan's voice is on it's on but it ain't always on...


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 11:19 AM

Yeah, I know what you mean, Rob. The quality of Dylan's live performances can vary tremendously from one show to another, which is kind of odd. Maybe it has to do with what mood he's in at the time. Joan Baez said in her books regarding performing onstage in the 60s with Dylan that he was very moody, and when he was in an "up" mood he was terrific, but when he was in a "dark" mood he was just unreachable...although in those days his dark moods still resulted in a good show...just not good personal communication with Joan or whoever else was around. ;-)


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Folknacious
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 11:09 AM

Here's a young Martin Simpson singing Masters Of War on the telly back in 1982


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: pavane
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 10:44 AM

*GUEST ,^&*

Afraid I do not have the reference to hand, but I believe it has been posted in a previous Wild Rover thread.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 04:36 AM

Will, I think the quality of his voice on earlier recordings is great. But live, I've been VERY disappointed by it on 2 of the 3 occasions I've seen him. Once he was great.

Little Hawk: The last time I saw him was in the mid-80s, when he couldn't seem to hit *any* notes. Or at least, not any notes that were in the chords that he or his band were playing. And he mumbled so badly that the words of his songs were inaudible. Which was a big disappointment to me as it's mainly the poetry of his lyrics that I listen to him for.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: GUEST,^&*
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 04:22 AM

Refresh - that last post was mine.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 05:30 PM

Thread creep alert!

Pavane:

"Wild Rover" started life as a temperence song published in London, with a known author who wrote several similar songs in the 1670's

I'm aware of the temperance connection but not of that early a date. Can you give chapter and verse, so to speak?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 05:23 PM

I think he had a fantastically effective and visceral voice, and that after his lyrical abilities his voice was his greatest asset. It was at its best in the 60s, still darn good in the 70s and 80s, only became a shadow of what it had been from sometime in the 90s until now. His phrasing is still quite evocative, but he can't hit the high notes anymore.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Will Fly
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 09:31 AM

I was starting to play guitar when Dylan hit the folk scene in England, and recall the impact he made, for a time, on some of us. One thing that does stand out - though other posters here appear to disagree - was the quality of his voice. I always thought that the voice of Dylan at that time was rough, rasping - and absolutely distinctive, with enormous power. I don't care for the later voice(s), on the whole, but the early Dylan voice was fresh and compelling.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 09:26 AM

Beer...I wasn't offended, just puzzled at the tone you'd taken. But it's good to see a gracios reply!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 09:02 AM

Accepted Beer - most gracious, thanks


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 08:38 AM

Well, I was there... For all of it... Prior to first hearing Dylan I was a drummer... Didn't so much as own a geetar... All I had to do was hear Dylan the first time and I said to myself, "Sheet fire, anyone can beat on a drum... Get a friggin' geetar, son" and I did... That was early in 1964... Been playing geetar ever since...

B~


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Beer
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 08:31 AM

You are correct Rafflesbear and I apoligize if I offended anyone.
Beer (ad.)


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: pavane
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 05:32 AM

"Dylan may have plagiarised a song".

Not quite in those terms, I think, just pointing out his sources, which can be important. Many performers like to know as much as possible about the songs they sing. Like, for example, the Wild Rover, which, far from being an anonymous song collected in Norfolk (England), started life as a temperence song published in London, with a known author who wrote several similar songs in the 1670's.

(In Lord Franklin, Dylan changed the line about ten thousand pounds to ten thousand dollars, too.)

But I don't criticise him for doing what many others have done, and
I recognise his huge contribution to music (at least in his early days). I still have all his old albums in vinyl. Claiming copyright on traditional music also has a long history, designed by some to ensure that the royalties are not lost to swell the record company's coffers insead.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 04:55 AM

Well said Rob, looks like too much Beer to me :-)


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 03:34 AM

Beer...what are you being so chippy about?

As far as I can see, there is ONE poster on here who implied Dylan may have plagiarised a song. And that poster's been taken to task for it.

The rest of the posts are mainly either confirming that borrowing/ adapting tunes and phrases are part of folk and blues tradition, or they're arguing for or against Pierre's contention that the "rocked up" version of Masters of War" is a great version of the song.

Yet you've gone off into some rant about how "you were there" and aggressively asking whether the rest of us were (and the few people posting here who I've actually met ARE old enough to have "been there") as if the thread's all about dissing Dylan.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 02:21 AM

Yes, if you were there (and I was) it was absolutely unforgettable.

The funny thing is, I don't think he had any intentions of "moving the world"...but he still did it anyway. Joan Baez was the one who wanted to change the world, and she did quite a bit along that line too, but Bob gave her the best firepower (in the form of songs) in her arsenal and she's always said that herself. He wrote the songs that transformed people's minds, inspired a generation (or two), and to some considerable extent changed the world.

His famous remark to Joan on one occasion went something like this, "The difference between us is, you think you can change the ways things are (in the world), and I know that no one can."

And still he did it anyway. Funny, isn't it? Some people have a destiny they cannot avoid, I suppose, regardless of their conscious intentions. Maybe a lot of people do...


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Beer
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 12:23 AM

Let us get this thread in prospective. I'm form the age when Dylan first came on the scene. Were you who are now so informed? I was here when he went from folk to electric. Were you? If you are of my era and are still trying to figure him out then great, but if your form a generation that didn't live thought the times of our era., than you will never never understand what we were so fortunate to have experiences first hand, be it copied, fraudulent or what ever you fucking asshole have negative to say about him. He was a changing experience for all of us rebels and peace lovers. You weren't there in the time of the cold war and the Cuban crises. Were you a teenager when the Viet Nam war was taking place. If not than, than shut the fuck up because you didn't go to bed wondering if you were going to be called up to serve or if the Russians were going o nuke us. The media was not at our finger tips as it is now. Sermons on Sunday gave us the news. Lyndon Jhonson(sp.wrong I don't care)gave us news as well. Much of which was lies.
Dylan can't sing worth shit and i have to go along with this. His first couple of a/p's were great then his voice started to go down hill. However, he is one of the greatest movers in world affairs that we folk lovers appreciate. For he was and still is a spokesmen.

I don't know where you were when you first heard "The Times Are A Changing" and maybe you don't even know the song. But I remember, and like Kennedy's Assassination I will never forget. Do you even know the song? Look it up, it still applies.

So did Dylan steal form this person of that person and change the words a little or the melody? I don't give a rats ass. Dylan moved the world and that is it.
AD.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Taconicus
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 10:52 PM

He studied (and borrowed from) British (English and Celtic) folk music quite a bit.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 01:09 PM

Yeah, the old tapes of Dylan when he first came upon the scene are something real special... The influences were so vast... I mean, one has to appreciate just how much stuff he'd read and heard to put together the songs and his sound... It is apparent that he was listeing to not only Woody but also some southern bluesmen, as well...

B~


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Taconicus
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 11:03 AM

Yes, many Dylan songs were takeoffs or re-writings of earlier songs, and many of his tunes were reworkings or adaptations (and often improvements) of earlier folk music melodies. And in doing so he was carrying on a long and venerable folk music tradition of doing just that.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 05:52 PM

"So many Guests on a Dylan Thread"
"I,ve started summit now"
But its interesting
kind regards Pierre


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 01:45 PM

Okay, I looked it up on Google. It means "not that there's anything wrong with that".

Lovely. ;-) You are forgiven, Gerry.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 10:11 PM

It's not that I missed it, Gerry. I just didn't have any idea what it meant, so I didn't comment on it. ;-) And I didn't bother looking it up either, obviously.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 07:00 PM

O rude guest, hiding in anonymity, Google is your friend.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 08:55 AM

Maybe in yer case, Rob, but I have more trouble remembering my own songs than other folks songs... I think it has to do with not having them all recorded, or recorded on my ol' Teak sync-sound reel to reel and don't listen to them enough...

But, yeah, I'll admit to have a somewhat cluttered mind... No, make that a very clutttered mind...

B~


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 08:54 AM

Gerry,

Perhaps you should stop being such a prat and expecting people to understand what NTTAWWT means.

The word 'arsehole' comes to mind...


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 08:48 AM

Little Hawk, perhaps you missed the NTTAWWT.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 04:04 AM

LH: It's easier to do it when you're young. Focus is keener, desire stronger, and the mind isn't so cluttered with a lifetime of trivial (and not so trivial) information yet.

All true...and also, it's easier to remember the words of something you've written yourself. 34 years ago I wrote a long poem about an experimental survey-navigation system that I was using. I probably don't even think of it more than once every couple of years, but I can still recite it word perfect from memory.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 03:18 AM

Inspiration and ideas come from what you hear and what you are brought up with. That's how chinese music sounds like chinese music, african music sounds like african music and indian music sounds like indian music.

If you write a song with lines, rhymes, a chorus and verses you are using someone else's format.

Everybody takes something they have heard and develops it for their own purpose. When did you last hear music that owed nothing to anything done before?

Bob Dylan has put an enormous amount of material into the public arena and because Dylan's music sounds most of all like Dylan's music I reckon he is influenced less by outsiders than most.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 09:44 PM

It's easier to do it when you're young. Focus is keener, desire stronger, and the mind isn't so cluttered with a lifetime of trivial (and not so trivial) information yet.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 08:50 PM

BTW, a little braggin' on my son... He has, ahhhh, a mind very much unlike mine... He first heard Jamie Brockett's "Legend of the Titanic" when he was about 9 years old and it took him about two weeks before he could recite it... Then he heard "Bob Dylan's Dream" and mastered it a couple of days??? Wish I had his memory...

Might of fact, afew years back he was visiting me in Page County and I was scheduled to perform at the County Farm Market and he'd been in the county for his first time in his life fir about 3 days and he wrote a 5 minute rap song about his observations called "We're not that much different", even though he is very much different with is Portland, Oregon look and got up on satge and did it from memory???

How do people do that???

Nevrmind...

B~


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 08:22 PM

Hey, Dylan's songs are steeped in the rich history of the blues... The blues is all about borrowing... I mean, lotta stuff out therer is fir the takin'... It ain't stealin'... It's just part of the game... Who cares??? I mean, really... It's not that Dylan wrote the entire song with borrowed stuff... Just inspired by soemthin' he'd read... Like that's all of us... That's where songs come from... I think that if we take Dylan's body of work and put it up against just about any poet past or present that it holds up well...

Jus MO, of course...

B~


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 07:24 PM

Uh-huh. And what about the entire rest of the song? And what is wrong with using an old trad song as the basis for starting off a whole new idea with new lyrics? People have been doing it ever since trad songs and traditional melodies existed. The only guy I ever hear criticized for doing it is Bob Dylan. He's well-known enough to make a good target.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 07:06 PM

First stanza of Lady Franklin's Lament:

We were homeward bound one night on the deep
Swinging in my hammock I fell asleep
I dreamed a dream and I thought it true
Concerning Franklin and his gallant crew

First stanza of Bob Dylan's Dream:

While riding on a train goin' west
I fell asleep for to take my rest
I dreamed a dream that made me sad
Concerning myself and the first few friends I had

More than a passing resemblance, I'd say. NTTAWWT.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 11:58 AM

It's quite true that the tune of Bob Dylan's Dream is based on the tune of Lord Franklin. And so what if it is? The main thing that is striking about the song Bob Dylan's Dream is the lyrics which are superb and insightful, and they bear little if any resemblance to the lyrics in Lord Franklin.

Why shouldn't someone use the tune of some old trad song, alter it a bit, and write new lyrics to it? Hell, people have been doing that for the last few thousand years. Example: The music of "The Star Spangled Banner", America's national anthem, is a recycycled tune from a popular English drinking song of the 1700s. Francis Scott Keys simply wrote new words to an old tune. ;-) Nobody seems to have a problem with that.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 10:34 AM

Thanks Will I,ll try that.
Greg Stevens I agree whole hearted.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 06:50 AM

Pierre, if you want a good Napoleonic song - well, actually more of a poem than a song, try Mike Harding's "Napoleon's Retreat From Wigan", which has the immortal lines:

"And when they got to't gates o' Wigan,
There were a bloody great doormat wit' words,
'Bog off, Froggies!'"

:-)


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 06:36 AM

I've maintained a good relationshup with Bob over the years, and the recipe is as follows: he doesn't tell me how to sing my songs, and I don't tell him how to sing his.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: GUEST,Woodsie
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 06:32 AM

If you miss out the last verse then you miss the whole point of the song!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 05:53 AM

Bob admits to that on the sleeve notes to ' Freewheelin '

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: pavane
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 05:32 AM

Pierre, Bob Dylan's Dream was a rewrite of Lord Franklin (probably learned from Martin Carthy while he was in England).


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 12:28 PM

another simple example maybe = to Masters of war is
talking world war III.
Dylan shows just how deep he can be with Masters of War
but a more whcky somewhat iditic tripy viw to world war three in the latter.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 11:59 AM

I must re write the above posting.

What a lot of folk do not consider abOut Bob Dylan
I think is
He is probobly "The best poet in the last 100 years?

A simple example is I shall be free.
A classic example is MASTERS OF WAR.

Got the wrong song there.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 11:24 AM

What a lot of folk do not consider about Bob Dylan
I think..is   
"He is probobly" The best Poet in the last 100 years"

A simply example is Bob Dylans Dream?
A classic example is Masters of War.


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