Bob Dylan Masters of war.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 02:21 AM

Yes, if you were there (and I was) it was absolutely unforgettable.

The funny thing is, I don't think he had any intentions of "moving the world"...but he still did it anyway. Joan Baez was the one who wanted to change the world, and she did quite a bit along that line too, but Bob gave her the best firepower (in the form of songs) in her arsenal and she's always said that herself. He wrote the songs that transformed people's minds, inspired a generation (or two), and to some considerable extent changed the world.

His famous remark to Joan on one occasion went something like this, "The difference between us is, you think you can change the ways things are (in the world), and I know that no one can."

And still he did it anyway. Funny, isn't it? Some people have a destiny they cannot avoid, I suppose, regardless of their conscious intentions. Maybe a lot of people do...

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 03:34 AM

Beer...what are you being so chippy about?

As far as I can see, there is ONE poster on here who implied Dylan may have plagiarised a song. And that poster's been taken to task for it.

The rest of the posts are mainly either confirming that borrowing/ adapting tunes and phrases are part of folk and blues tradition, or they're arguing for or against Pierre's contention that the "rocked up" version of Masters of War" is a great version of the song.

Yet you've gone off into some rant about how "you were there" and aggressively asking whether the rest of us were (and the few people posting here who I've actually met ARE old enough to have "been there") as if the thread's all about dissing Dylan.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 04:55 AM

Well said Rob, looks like too much Beer to me :-)

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: pavane
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 05:32 AM

"Dylan may have plagiarised a song".

Not quite in those terms, I think, just pointing out his sources, which can be important. Many performers like to know as much as possible about the songs they sing. Like, for example, the Wild Rover, which, far from being an anonymous song collected in Norfolk (England), started life as a temperence song published in London, with a known author who wrote several similar songs in the 1670's.

(In Lord Franklin, Dylan changed the line about ten thousand pounds to ten thousand dollars, too.)

But I don't criticise him for doing what many others have done, and
I recognise his huge contribution to music (at least in his early days). I still have all his old albums in vinyl. Claiming copyright on traditional music also has a long history, designed by some to ensure that the royalties are not lost to swell the record company's coffers insead.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Beer
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 08:31 AM

You are correct Rafflesbear and I apoligize if I offended anyone.
Beer (ad.)

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 08:38 AM

Well, I was there... For all of it... Prior to first hearing Dylan I was a drummer... Didn't so much as own a geetar... All I had to do was hear Dylan the first time and I said to myself, "Sheet fire, anyone can beat on a drum... Get a friggin' geetar, son" and I did... That was early in 1964... Been playing geetar ever since...

B~

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 09:02 AM

Accepted Beer - most gracious, thanks

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 09:26 AM

Beer...I wasn't offended, just puzzled at the tone you'd taken. But it's good to see a gracios reply!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Will Fly
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 09:31 AM

I was starting to play guitar when Dylan hit the folk scene in England, and recall the impact he made, for a time, on some of us. One thing that does stand out - though other posters here appear to disagree - was the quality of his voice. I always thought that the voice of Dylan at that time was rough, rasping - and absolutely distinctive, with enormous power. I don't care for the later voice(s), on the whole, but the early Dylan voice was fresh and compelling.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 05:23 PM

I think he had a fantastically effective and visceral voice, and that after his lyrical abilities his voice was his greatest asset. It was at its best in the 60s, still darn good in the 70s and 80s, only became a shadow of what it had been from sometime in the 90s until now. His phrasing is still quite evocative, but he can't hit the high notes anymore.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 05:30 PM

Thread creep alert!

Pavane:

"Wild Rover" started life as a temperence song published in London, with a known author who wrote several similar songs in the 1670's

I'm aware of the temperance connection but not of that early a date. Can you give chapter and verse, so to speak?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: GUEST,^&*
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 04:22 AM

Refresh - that last post was mine.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 04:36 AM

Will, I think the quality of his voice on earlier recordings is great. But live, I've been VERY disappointed by it on 2 of the 3 occasions I've seen him. Once he was great.

Little Hawk: The last time I saw him was in the mid-80s, when he couldn't seem to hit *any* notes. Or at least, not any notes that were in the chords that he or his band were playing. And he mumbled so badly that the words of his songs were inaudible. Which was a big disappointment to me as it's mainly the poetry of his lyrics that I listen to him for.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: pavane
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 10:44 AM

*GUEST ,^&*

Afraid I do not have the reference to hand, but I believe it has been posted in a previous Wild Rover thread.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Folknacious
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 11:09 AM

Here's a young Martin Simpson singing Masters Of War on the telly back in 1982

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 11:19 AM

Yeah, I know what you mean, Rob. The quality of Dylan's live performances can vary tremendously from one show to another, which is kind of odd. Maybe it has to do with what mood he's in at the time. Joan Baez said in her books regarding performing onstage in the 60s with Dylan that he was very moody, and when he was in an "up" mood he was terrific, but when he was in a "dark" mood he was just unreachable...although in those days his dark moods still resulted in a good show...just not good personal communication with Joan or whoever else was around. ;-)

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 12:39 PM

Have to agree with both WillFly and Rob-n... Yeah, when Dylan's voice is on it's on but it ain't always on...

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 06:01 AM

Whata Palarva"I started something off here have I not.
I progressing with Masters of War and hope to sing it tonight for the first time in full at my folk club.
Regards to all Pierre.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: GUEST,Woodeneye
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 07:54 AM

What! Last verse as well pete?

I don't think anybody will be offended as Jim and Theresa have sung it there mant times.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: GUEST,Pierre at work bunking off
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 08:12 AM

I agree Woodeneye
Iam aware Jim and Theresa have done Masters of War"many times fore that reason I see no reason why they should be upset or pissed off at me doing it fore a first time.

If folk get upset because one decides to sing a song some one else does then the learning process fore new songs would be a pointless affair?



If any of the above two chosse to do any of my songs I wouildnt give a toss in fact I would encourage them?
Not discourage them.
Regards Pierre.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: GUEST,Pierre at work been caught bunking off.
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 08:15 AM

"Bloody Managers where I work are facists" The whole bloody shower of em?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 03:44 PM

wasnt this tune nottumun town?was the tune wriytten by Jean Ritchie?or was nottamun town a song coolected ONLYfrom the RITCHIE FAMILY?
"A piece of folksong surrealism," is how Jean describes "Nottamun Town," dreamlike in its disorienting juxtapositions: "Ten thousand stood around me, and yet I's alone...." The family could trace their knowledge of the song back to Crockett Ritchie; according to Uncle Jason, "'hit's might neart sure to be about Nottingham in Old England.'"

The song was likely a product of the early mummers' plays, in which local actors would blacken their faces and turn their clothing inside out to escape recognition. Bob Dylan was not only influenced by the song's jumble of mixed-up, fantastical lyrics... but also melodically, as he borrowed the tune for "Masters of War"