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Jive Aces and Scientology

Bonzo3legs 16 Aug 10 - 02:35 AM
Rob Naylor 16 Aug 10 - 03:17 AM
Chris Partington 16 Aug 10 - 05:08 AM
Rob Naylor 16 Aug 10 - 05:23 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 16 Aug 10 - 05:36 AM
Bonzo3legs 16 Aug 10 - 07:08 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 16 Aug 10 - 07:38 AM
Rob Naylor 16 Aug 10 - 08:00 AM
pavane 16 Aug 10 - 08:49 AM
Amos 16 Aug 10 - 11:54 AM
GUEST,Wesley S 16 Aug 10 - 01:46 PM
Don Firth 16 Aug 10 - 03:07 PM
Amos 16 Aug 10 - 03:13 PM
Don Firth 16 Aug 10 - 03:21 PM
Bonzo3legs 16 Aug 10 - 03:41 PM
GUEST,JiveAce 20 Aug 10 - 05:32 AM
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Subject: Jive Aces and Scientology
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 02:35 AM

Saw this excellent swing band at the Summer Swing in East Grinstead England, at what we discovered to be a centre for Scientology - then discovered the band are all raving Scientologists - a strange mix???


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Subject: RE: Jive Aces and Scientology
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 03:17 AM

Not that strange...a liking for playing music doesn't preclude a propensity for being attracted to loony religions and philosophies.

I think we've seen that quite often in the last few decades.

I *am* constantly surprised how many people exhibit the level of credulousness required to embrace Scientology though...a "religion" started by a second-rate SF writer who falsified his war record and said "the best way to become a millionaire is to start a religion".

Its development from a pseudo-science into a highly controlling pseudo-religion is well-documented down the decades. I think the defining moment when L. Ron decided to move it from being a "science" to being a religion (along with all the associated tax breaks and freedom from scrutiny that gives) was when he produced his first "Clear" who was supposed to be "mentally perfect, with total recall". On stage, she couldn't even remember the colour of the interviewer's tie when his back was turned! The audience ended up laughing him and her off stage, and soon afterwards the "science" of Dianetics mysteriously morphed into the "religion" of Scientology.

Mind you, East Grinstead and its environs seems to be quite a centre for kookie philosophies....there are major offices of 4 or 5 whacky ideologies in the immediate area. I's could be the water, or maybe whackiness is contagious :-)


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Subject: RE: Jive Aces and Scientology
From: Chris Partington
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 05:08 AM

The Caravan Club also has its offices in East Grinstead. Perhaps I had better read the small print in the members book again.


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Subject: RE: Jive Aces and Scientology
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 05:23 AM

The Caravan Club? Make that SIX kookie religions in East Grinstead!!!


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Subject: RE: Jive Aces and Scientology
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 05:36 AM

We saw a protest out the Scientiology centre in Manchester on Saturday; all the potesters were wearing V for Vendetta masks.

The Incredible String Band were heavily into Scientology - promoting the cause at concerts and unwisely acknowledging L Ron Hubbard as The Fuerher on their album covers.


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Subject: RE: Jive Aces and Scientology
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 07:08 AM

There is a huge mormon temple on the A22 near East Grinstead -even more whacky!!!


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Subject: RE: Jive Aces and Scientology
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 07:38 AM

Yeah, and there are churches for wacky concepts such as CofE and Catholic too....

(Never miss a chance. Sorry Joe.)


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Subject: RE: Jive Aces and Scientology
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 08:00 AM

Thing is, you can see how the "established" religions developed, in an era of slow communications and relatively low literacy. There wouldn't be the same possibilities or incentives back then to research or correct word of mouth and documents promulgated by those with an agenda.

The origins of Scientology are, despite the organisation's on-going attempts to "sanitise" its past, pretty well documented *outside* the organisation.

I also find the main concepts of most religions a bit odd, but I think the documented development of Scientology in particular is so wacky that I find it hard to understand how people come to embrace it, whereas I can understand to an extent why people embrace the mainstream religions...particularly the "laid back" sects like C of E where you can apparently "pick & mix" the bits you like and which don't, at least for many people, require much in the way of personal sacrifice in their way of life :-)


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Subject: RE: Jive Aces and Scientology
From: pavane
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 08:49 AM

I think it was Pascal who said that believing in God was a kind of in-win situation - if he doesn't exist, it doesn't matter, and if he does, then you win. Of course, you have wasted all the money you spent on good causes... But if one does exist, then WHICH one? There are hundreds of possibilities. So PASCAL was wrong, and if you chose the wrong one, you lose?

"Sire, I have no need for that hypothesis"


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Subject: RE: Jive Aces and Scientology
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 11:54 AM

Religions are whacky beasts from the get-go. Personally I don't see why having a sci-fi fiction writer found one is any stranger than having one founded by a carpenter or a polyamorist.

Most serious Christians are used to having to put up with very weird and slanted versions of Christianity from folks who never tried to separate the actual teachings from the overheated confusions of the group culture. I am sure Joe has put up with reams of this kind of misinterpretation of his subject as he understands it from having delved into it.

I expect the Scientology thing is somewhat similar, the actual subject being trampled into unrecognizeability by hordes of the confused or the self-serving both within and without the organization.


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Subject: RE: Jive Aces and Scientology
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 01:46 PM

Rob - I object to you calling L Ron Hubbard a "a second-rate SF writer who falsified his war record"

He wrote second rate westerns too. And many of them have been reprinted recently. The airports and chain bookstores are full of them.


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Subject: RE: Jive Aces and Scientology
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 03:07 PM

I remember reading L. Ron Hubbard's articles on Dianetics in Analog back in the early 1950s. He had what sounded like a fairly reasonable hypothesis at the time:   likening the human brain to a computer (a device that seemed most arcane and complex at the time) and that various kind of traumas could produce "engrams," which are sort of like computer bugs. Everybody had engrams, so no one ever reached their full human potential. And what the extent of that full human potential was, no one really knew, because no one (that we knew of) had ever been there. Hubbard hatched up the concept of the "operating Thetan," a bug (or "engram") free human. An operating Thetan, he claimed, could do all kinds of things including leaving the body and traveling about the universe without physical restraints.

About that time, I started thinking, "Uh. . . ?"

Knew lots of people at the time who were interested in the whole thing, and I even took a little "auditing" myself. I could imagine leaving my body and zipping around the universe (does tend to broaden the scope of one's imagination a bit), but I never bought the idea that, as my "auditor" assured me, I was actually doing it.

I read L. Ron Hubbard's book, Dianetics:   The Modern Science of Mental Health, which was all very interesting, but someplace along the line, I just lost interest.

Some time later, I heard that the whole thing had morphed into the religion of "Scientology." My former "auditor," who by now had become a bit disillusioned, told me that the American Psychiatric Association had declared the whole thing as being somewhere in that wide range between "overly simplistic" to "downright quackery." In some cases, legal action was being taken to clamp down on auditors as purveyors of a possibly potentially dangerous fraud on the psychologically vulnerable.

L. Ron, it is said, sought a way to protect his growing mini-empire from legal action and decided to "make himself a prophet." So he changed the name from Dianetics to "Scientology," and declared it a religion. This way, any attempt to investigate, and/or limit Dianetics and the process of auditing could be declare "religious persecution." In other words, doing an end-run around any possible investigations or malpractice charges.

I don't believe that Scientology has anything to do with ideas about God and all that. I think it has a whole different schtick going, but I don't really know for sure. A couple of years after Dianetics had become the "religion" of Scientology, I dropped into their local office just to ask a few reasonable questions. When a young woman who couldn't have been more than nineteen, and pimply-faced kid who looked to be closer to sixteen gave me officious and totally silly answers to my first few questions�and I noted that these two children were both dressed in dark clothes and wearing clerical collars, I left.

When they had introduced themselves as, "Reverend Tammy" and "Reverend Zack," I strained a muscle just trying to keep from bursting out laughing. So I got out of there.

Gosh! I lost my opportunity to travel freely about the Cosmos by the sheer power of my mind alone!

So I just embrace my engrams and watch Nova and other science programs a lot. Star Trek.

What the hell! I can travel around the universe in my imagination without having to take all that "auditing," and I can drag my engrams along with me.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Jive Aces and Scientology
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 03:13 PM

Gosh! I lost my opportunity to travel freely about the Cosmos by the sheer power of my mind alone!


Don't worry, Don, your inherent ability to zip around the Cosmos is not impaired by the maunderings of a silly organization. Not even the APA or Mudcat could do that to ya!! :D



A


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Subject: RE: Jive Aces and Scientology
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 03:21 PM

Thanks for the reassurance, Amos!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Jive Aces and Scientology
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 03:41 PM

The keyboard player is great on keyboards but awful on guitar!


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Subject: RE: Jive Aces and Scientology
From: GUEST,JiveAce
Date: 20 Aug 10 - 05:32 AM

Glad you enjoyed our playing Bonzo :-)
Cheers!


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