The Concept of FREED Folkmusic

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 01:57 PM

...in a good nation, within a good United Nations, there would be no need for private charities.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 01:41 PM

"with one eye on The Great North Run"

Did I miss that? Poo! Love watching the big runs. I still hate the fact that Beeb London Marathon coverage is now dominated by booooring professional runners. The reason it used to be brilliant was the nut jobs in massive Bunny costumes collecting for some scabby crotch disease. Or people in Bear Suits playing trombones collecting for ear fungus.

Apparently the British cycle race went near my village but we didn't get there to see it due to a work delay. Still, I expect it was too proper for massive bunny suits and buckets for scabby crotch disease.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 01:31 PM

Right, Suib. I had forgotten about the provenance of Davey's recorder and the quips surrounding it. I'm sure that a true English flute requires that it be made in Japan, of that ancient craft material, plastic. Been that way since the Celtic peoples first arrived in the islands many millennia ago.

Conrad is one of these unfortunate people who is obsessed with the idea that everyone in the world is out of step but him and he wants the whole world to conform to his wishes—which are eminently impractical if not downright impossible. He wants everyone to supply him with what he wants for no charge, conveniently ignoring the basic fact of life that everything has a price, if not in currency of the realm, then in someone's effort.

In the Garden, after Adam and Eve had eaten all the low-hanging apples, if they wanted any more, someone had to climb the friggin' tree to pick them. Early on, one person beats the bushes and harvests edible roots and berries, while someone else manages to spear a warthog. Then the exchange begins. "I'll trade you a couple of pork chops for a couple of tubers and a handful of those berries."

When this kind of barter became too cumbersome, our predecessors worked out a medium of exchange. "These cowry shells, although they're kinda pretty, ain't worth much in and of themselves. But let's use them as markers. A pork chop is worth two cowry shells. A handful of berries is worth one cowry shell. A cup of that weird, foamy water that formed in the bucket of wheat when it got left out in the rain and that makes you feel good while it also makes you sorta dizzy outta be worth at least four cowry shells. . . ."    And so money (and presumably, by accident, beer) was invented.

You help someone build a thatched hut and he gives you a handful of cowry shells that you can then exchange for whatever you might need or want. Now, we call that "wages."

Then along came the minstrels. "He sings kinda purty and the songs he sings tell good stories. Maybe we can get him to bring his lyre and sing for us if we offer him some cowry shells."

'Twas ever thus, Conrad. Sure, things have got more complicated, but the basic structure of exchange of things of value, both tangible and intangible, and the chits that represent them (these days, we call it "money") is as old as humanity.

Also, I'm a bit surprised that you seem to maintain that all these things should be free for the asking. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." That smacks of Socialism.

And you say, up above, that you are a conservative Republican.

Is it possible that you are a bit confused?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 01:00 PM

And you definitely need to be here WavyFWBR......oh yeah........Looking forward to it!


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 10:01 AM

A comrade S. just put me onto this Conrad thread, dear Ralphie.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 09:56 AM

Oh God. Wav has turned up.....Shall we leave him and Conrad to it?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 09:40 AM

Sorry, I misread this thread, with one eye on The Great North Run - playing for free or for a living are both okay, but the inequality in music is as bad as in free-markets elsewhere. Thus, I think part of what I just said is relevant - we need regulations.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 09:04 AM

God knows how many times I've used this quote (I certainly don't have to look it up), but I'm sure it applies to folk music/this thread, too: "Liberty, as surfeit, is the father of much fast" (William Shakespeare, Measure for Measure).

As I've argued here, I like regulations for fair competition, and to help keep our world nice and multicultural - definitely including the variety of folk music of the nations.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 08:23 AM

most important too broad....very important was intended sorry for the confusion but you guys will shoot at anything

I am glad that someone can find a place where there is free music and average beer prices. The people I know of here and I know most of them always play in expensive yuppie places where the deal is how much can I pay for that beer.....

Been in the dun cow many times- does it still have its amazing beer pump? Might pay just a bit more just to see that operate.

Yesterday I was brought with artcar to the H. street festival in DC. I was only given a donation to cover the gas. Across the street the local german beer garden was selling cups mind you not pints for $5.00- lots of people could not afford that.

Yes we must remember that especially in the Jazz and Blues traditions ordinary low income folks made the music happen and today they could not purchase even one beer. There are many homeless and unemployed who have to watch their spending. It is tragic that those who think anyone can come in and have a good time seem to have important positions in the folk music community. The poor people are the ones that need the music more than anyone.

And yes I know that there are concerts that are free. However, look behind most of them and you will find a public grant that would be best put toward feeding people. Most if not all of these are not truly benefits at all.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 08:06 AM

If someone literally can't afford the price of a single beer then agree they might be excluded. However I doubt there are many in either the US or the UK for whom this is true. Even the down-and-outs seem to be able to afford alcohol.

I am currently unemployed. I'm living off my savings, which are going down fast. My only earned income comes from the occasional music gig, but this is not enough to live on, and besides there are expenses to pay which cancel out most of this - even the taxman recognises this. Last week I had a "folk experience" in a nearby pub, playing music in a session. Entry was free, and I spent less than £4 on drinks (beer prices are around average for the area). That strikes me as pretty good value for a full evening of music and good company. If I were really counting the pennies I could have emulated Flora Thompson's villagers and made a half-pint (just over £1) last the evening - now that would have been "authentic".

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Melissa
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 04:56 AM

One gets drunk and drives.
The other travels on a shoestring.

I'm not sure it's nice to talk about WAV in this thread, but a trade sounds good to me.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 04:49 AM

Ya' know............WavyFWBR and Cornhole are the same but different and I finally see they are the Yin and Yang of Mudcat. This is what creates the major problem in arranging a trade..........Suib, I want to thank you for helping me see the light!

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 04:29 AM

A point of pure pedantry on the subject of WAV's English Flute - it is a Plastic Tenor made in Japan. It was the saintly Mr Firth who came up with the term Engrish Frute to describe this instrument though WAV generally attributes it to me (saying it is more racially offensive than claiming England was more English 50 years ago) but let's be fair here. Also on a point of fairness, apart from his published (& entirely mistaken) misgivings on the nature of English Culture (see the Re. Dynamics thread for the lastest WAVlaw in the making) WAV isn't in the least bit offensive in person. He made a valid & welcome contribution to my Ballad Session in Durham back in July (the Dun Cow on Old Elvet if you must know, Conrad; free to get in but the beer was knocking on £2.50 a pint) and is always smartly turned out, polite and moderate in his habits.

Moderation is not a word that could be used with respect of Conrad's particular brand of self-promotion. Indeed, it would be interesting to know what WAV makes of his indiscriminate plundering of the folklore of alien cultures (much less belonging to a German Church). Whilst I might wince at certain aspects of it, I nevertheless acknowledge that even on Native Soil the condition of such folklore is wobbly revivalism to say the least - and, as I say, even back in the day Crawhall's Beuk o' Newcassel Sangs (1888) was a bit of wanton Novocastrian pastiche. But even so I find Conrad's Webpages in this respect (replete with naff graphics, midi musical snatches, and animated figures) offensive to my native-born Geordie soul - and, let's face it, to a more modest aesthetic sensibility as befits the material. The German Church I have no problem with whatsoever, acknowledging the rich cultural mix that is America - nor would I have a problem if Max Hunter had turned up some genuine Northumbrian Folk Songs during his travels in the Ozarks, but I would urge a little more discretion in dealing with the cultural treasures & traditions of other lands. Moderation is the key here; moderation in all things - and respect, where respect is undoubtedly due.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 01:47 AM

Thanks for that Don. I must have missed Mr Harris. Will check him out Cheers!
(BTW Do you think Conrad has the foggiest idea what we are talking about?...No, Didn't think so!)
All these freeloading classical composers, nicking the tunes and songs of the downtrodden poor, just to make a quick buck....Bastards all of them.
If it hadn't been for hearing a recording of Peter Warlocks Capriol Suite in the late 50's I wouldn't have discovered French dance music!
Oh...And I just noticed I got 600! Never managed that before!!
How on earth did this thread get that big?
Conrad must be very popular over there...Tickets on E Bay for his gigs, at silly prices obviously!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 01:44 AM

I just had a stroke of genius!!

You know how, when someone is standing on the seventh floor ledge of a building, a huge crowd will gather to see if they're going to jump?   And how people stop and gawk at an automobile accident? And if you knew in advance of the time and location of a massive train wreck, you could build a grandstand on both sides of the tracks and pack them with people?

How about THIS:

Let's get Conrad with his penny whistle and Wavey Davey with his "English flute" (German-made alto recorder) together for a joint concert!!!

A catastrophe like that is absolutely guaranteed to draw a huge crowd!

Of course, there are certain logistical problems that would have to be addressed. I'm sure the English would not be happy if Conrad went there, and we certainly don't want Wavey Davey over here. I might suggest that we have the concert in some remote location, such as an island in the South Pacific. And we can have the concert telecast world-wide over a pay television channel. We could make fortune for setting this up, along with paying both Conrad and Wavey Davey a fortune.

You know, somehow I don't think either of them would refuse the money. Wavey Davey could get himself a small island off the coast of England and set up his own empire, populating it with only people who are Pure English (?), forbidding immigration of anyone without the proper English pedigree.

And Conrad could easily afford to build a swimming pool in his back yard (after clearing away all the junk first) and fill it with beer!

I even thought of the perfect place to hold the concert. It's been used for this sort of pre-planned catastophic event before.

Bikini Atoll.

Is that brilliant, or what!??

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 01:20 AM

Right, Ralphie. There was a lot of that going around. An American composer named Roy Harris wrote a fair number of symphonies and other works making use of folk music and folk themes.

Lots of others.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 01:09 AM

"If your venue charges one penny and I have no pennys I cant get in or eat there or drink there."
Memo to self, When starting a club, make sure to ask everyone for a penny to get in. That'll keep the bozos out!
Oh, and Don...You forgot Bela Bartok in Hungary doing field recordings!
And, Percy Grainger, Benjamin Britten, Butterworth, etc!
Toodle Pip!
Ralphie
(Do you think he'll go away now?)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 01:08 AM

The church my wife and I go to has a coffee hour after the sermon, where people get together, eat a few cookies, drink a little coffee (coffee is regarded as one of the Sacrements by Scandinavian Lutherans), and socialize a bit.

Most pleasant. But it's not regarded as the "most important" part of the Sunday service.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Sep 10 - 12:26 AM

Does your Lutheran church have beer and brats parties?

LMAO.......Super Pissant's last post is really over the top.......lolol.........What a load of complete crap!!


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 11:48 PM

"I am a member of a German church that thinks that food is most important"

I was brought up a German Lutheran, and never heard of this nutter bullshit!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 11:42 PM

Conrad, there's a simple solution to your problem of no money.

Get a job!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 09:44 PM

The denial that prices can be barriers is absurd..
If your venue charges one penny and I have no pennys I cant get in or eat there or drink there.

One sees the argument- if you really like the music you will spend what it takes- unless of course you dont have what it takes.

I dont deny that folk music may be cheaper than other things the question is why dont we make it as cheap as possible rather than take any excuse for ripping people off?

How rich can a person's experience with folk music be?
The definition of folk has nothing to do with this discussion.

Definitions are created for narrow purposes of analysis and problem solving and communication. There is never a one size fits all definition.

It is impossible to recreate the past but we do have a treasury of artifacts from the past. Our task is to carry those things through time to the best of our ability.

If we are to honor the productions of the past we have to make significant room for them. That means working out a compromise with the productions, tastes and sensitivities of the present

The range of artfacts in our care is large- lyrics, tunes, instruments, recipes, costumes......practices, rituals and complex arrangements of things- seasonal celebrations.

It is simply efficient to suggest that folk experiences be as rich as possible. Why should events be music only, masquerade only or food only. I am a member of a German church that thinks that food is most important- I keep telling them that they have lost their music! Which is true- scarcely a one of them knows the songs to go with the beer and bratwurst.

yes you can simply do music but I think that is being excessively narrow. One can not live by bread alone, or just music or just costumes.

The people of the past lived as we do lives which can be measured by variables. The end product will be a spectrum with some concentrations here and there along the line.

We are not tasked to re create an average or an extreme as we can recreate nothing. Our job is to tolerate all configurations and to maximize access and maximize integration into the lifeway. It has to be as open as possible, cheap as possible and transmit as much as possible as oppose to entertain.

There is a role for the professional capitalist but I dont have to defend the status quo especially where a configuration which provides for more transmission and accessibility can be demonstrated.

Just because you like it is no reason to continue on the path.

There is no reason what so ever to claim that people have evolved beyond the point of no return and can no longer choose to make music a part of their daily lives rather than serve only as audience
But we need this on many levels- baking, cooking, singing, playing, making physical artifacts.....and on and on.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 04:47 PM

The words "folk song" is not a construct of "the folk."

The word "folk," the way it was initially used, referred to the rural, peasant class, as distinct from the more urban tradespeople, merchants, and aristocracy.

As far as anyone knows, the first appearance of the word(s) "folksong" in writing was by Johann Gottfried von Herder (1744 – 1803), a German philosopher, theologian, poet, and literary critic. He is associated with the periods of the Enlightenment, Sturm und Drang, and Weimar Classicism. He was referring to "volkslieder," the songs of the rural, peasant class.

He suggested that if composers (of "serious" or "classical" music) wished their music to capture the character of a particular country or region, they should listen to the volkslieder of that country or region. Subsequently, many composers did, with the results they desired. Dvorak's music capturing the "flavor" of Czechoslovakia, Moussorgski that of Russia, Rimsky-Korsakov's very Middle-Eastern sounding music in the Sheherazade symphonic suite, based on the Tales of the Arabian Nights. Ralph Vaughan Williams in England, Aaron Copeland in America, many others.

Prior to that time, collectors such as Bishop Thomas Percy, who rescued an old manuscript that a maid was using to light the morning fire with, and used that as the nucleus of his Reliques of Ancient English Poetry, didn't, as far as I can tell, use the word(s) "folk song." Nor, as far is I know, did Samuel Pepys regarding his Library of Broadside Ballads, nor Ambrose Phillips' about his Collection of Old Ballads (1723).

Sir Walter Scott, inspired by reading the Percy's Reliques, published some of the ballads he collected in The Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border (1803). The more rigorous scholarship of folklorists would eventually supersede Percy's work, but Percy gave impetus to the whole subject.

The Reliques is also credited, in part, with changing the prevailing art movement of the 18th century, Neo-Classicism, into Romanticism. The neo-classicists based their art on the perceived purity of classical antiquity and took as their models the art of ancient Rome and Greece. The Reliques highlighted the traditions and folklore of England seen as simpler and less artificial. It would inspire the collection of songs and stories in other parts of Europe and beyond, such as those by the Brothers Grimm. As von Herder had suggested (or predicted—or observed), such movements tended to act as the foundation of romantic nationalism.

The Percy Society was founded in 1840, to continue the work of publishing rare ballads, poems and early texts. In the late 1800s, Harvard English professor Francis James Child got into the act and, amazingly enough, managed to put together, mainly by correspondence, his massive and authoritative work, The English and Scottish Popular Ballads. Cecil J. Sharp, first in England, then in the Southern Appalachians, then, of course, the Lomaxes, and people like Carl Sandburg, and many, many others collecting American songs, some indigenous, but many transplanted from other countries, mostly the British Isles.

I don't think Ugluck and Mongook sitting in their cave back about 27,000 years ago, banging rocks together and grunting in rhythm were thinking "what a wonderful 'folk experience' we're having! Pass me some of that fermented berry juice, I want to awaken my muse!"

No. The word "folk" in relation to this music is a relatively modern—and mostly artificial—construct. This has a lot to do with the constant, excessively long, and frequently devising threads on "what is a folk song."

No, I have to agree with Spaw, here. Conrad is a person of no particular talent or ability ("visionary artist" my arse!!) who has latched onto folk music because he is another one of those who thinks that folk music doesn't require talent and ability. But many singers DO have a measure of talent, or have actually WORKED at honing what skills they do have—or both—have learned lots of songs, and are able to sing them in a manner that engages other people. And often other people are willing to pay money to hear them perform. That really gets up Conrad's nose! He doesn't want to do the work himself, he just wants instant recognition—and is undoubtedly quite willing to accept pay, if anyone were actually willing to pay to listen to him flatulate tunelessly on his penny whistle—and is jealous of those who HAVE put in the time and effort.

They put in the time and effort, not necessarily because they are looking for a way to get rich (God knows!!), but because they love the music. And most would go ahead and perform whether they were paid or not. And often DO!

Yeah. My secret's out. I would perform whether I was paid for it or not. And, indeed, I have performed free, many times. But with one stipulation:   with the exception of agreeing to sing for a charity or a good cause, if someone is making money from the fact that I'm singing somewhere, I insist on getting some of it.

If someone wants to PAY to hear me sing, I'm sure as hell going to take it!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 04:23 PM

"Folk music is still one of the cheapest forms of entertainment around, and most people can go to a music event and have a few drinks for far less than it would cost them to go to other forms of entertainment."

This is true. Of course traditional folk song tends to be very much a minority interest at such events, but that doesn't undermine the contemporary 'folkie' entertainment value of such a gathering.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 01:57 PM

It isn't......Cornhole is simply an average or below average talent whowanted to be but never was so now has developed this Peasant schtick. This allows him to be "eccntric" in any way he chooses and has surrounded himself with enablers to provide positive feedback.

I think we're all playing along here just to see if he can continue to outdo himself in the Wacko Department. I kinda' enjoy reiforcing Cornhole's stupidity and watching many of you do the same. Feed this guy for the troll value and enjoy watching him bury himself deeper and deeper.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 10:24 AM

Conrad, no one is arguing for exclusivity or high prices. However there is simply no evidence to support your claim that high beer prices are an obstacle. Folk music is still one of the cheapest forms of entertainment around, and most people can go to a music event and have a few drinks for far less than it would cost them to go to other forms of entertainment. If they are on a tight budget, they can drink less - the only reason that you find prices an obstacle is your refusal to do this.

In my experience, as a performer and an event organiser, the main factors contributing to a successful folk venue are these (in descending order):

the quality of the music - this is paramount, a perfect venue is no good without good music.
the right location
a suitable room:
- the optimum size for the size of audience (too big can be as bad as too small)
- the right shape, so everyone can see
- good acoustics, so everyone can hear
- ideally, separate from the bar itself, to keep noise down
the right atmosphere
the quality of the beer
the price of the beer

Obviously, if all the other requirements can be satisfied then cheap beer is to be preferred over expensive beer. However in terms of what makes a good folk venue it is of only minor importance compared with the others. Choosing a venue based solely on the price of beer will deter more people than it attracts.

I have not mentioned food, because this is not a consideration here. People don't go to folk venues to eat. Perhaps it's different in the US.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 09:47 AM

So far there have been strong arguments here for exclusivity, maintenance of high prices which lock out participants and condemnation of any thought of bringing folk culture into daily practice.

You're obviously totally oblivious to the main arguments of the posters here which have stated quite clearly that no-one here is interested in being exclusive or maintaining high prices. As to "folk culture", there's no such thing - except in your own brain.

It's all in your head - just read what people have had to say - there's nothing here to support your statement.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 08:31 AM

What you call it is not important.

The important point is the nature of access to the music and the relative availability of opportunities for transmission and active use of the materials.

So far there have been strong arguments here for exclusivity, maintenance of high prices which lock out participants and condemnation of any thought of bringing folk culture into daily practice.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 08:08 AM

I'm not accusing - rather celebrating. I'm part of that too - no bother at all, just under no illusions as to what we're dealing with here, which makes it no less valid of course, just not what some here (ie Conrad, WAV etc) would like to think that it is.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 07:43 AM

For once, I find myself agreeing with Suibhne, at least in the context of this thread. Not only does Conrad ignore (perhaps deliberately) the hobby context in which folk music now exists, but he seems to have a highly selective and romanticised idea of how it used to exist, one which is tailored to justify his own behaviour.

Suibhne of course accuses all of us "GWTMC Folkies" of having our own romanticised view, and he may be right.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 07:32 AM

ponder why the real folk stay away in droves.

"Hobbyists"?

You have a very valuable insight there, Suib.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 06:44 AM

It is at least in part due to these changes that most of the "peasants" no longer feel the need to enjoy the "folk experience" and turn to mass-produced entertainment. Folk music is now enjoyed in a very different environment and in a very different context.

The root problem here is that Folk as we (& Conrad) understand the term is the residue of a Bourgeois construct, abstracted & refined for a (mostly) graduate white transatlantic middle-class that retains that priviledge. Meanwhile, your actual peasant / working class folk life continues apace, as it always has done; it still has its songs & culture, just none of it is of any interest to the (mostly) GWTMC Folkies who dismiss it (as Howard has done) as mass produced without any appreciation how it operates in societal context. Folk (as we & Conrad understand the term) is of little interest to your actual peasant / working-class folk for reasons too numerous to go into here, but basically because it lacks contemporary relevance and therefore appeals only to a minority of (mostly) GWTMC Folkies (such as we & Conrad).

As Conrad has demonstratred, Folk is, in effect, a hobbyist religion in which one might appropriate residual so-called folklore - in Conrad's case everything from Traditional Tyneside Songs illustrated by crap scans of the woodcuts of Joseph Crawhall 2 (which even in his lifetime (1821-96) were an essentially post modern pastiche) to the Mari Lwyd. That it is no longer actual folklore is by the by - any more than a Traditional Song sung by a Revival Singer is an actual folk song. It is however Folk and as such can only be as authentic as (say) a model railway and bears as much relationship to immediate / actual folk life as a model railway does to our national rail network.

This is the nature of Folk; as it has been now for over a century and I don't expect it'll ever be any different. If we randomly selected 100 working-class people and put them on a desert island with no access to radios, CD players, iPods, mobile phone networks, computers & televisions, what they'd be singing 40 years down the line would be genuine folk processed folk music regardless of its ultimate provenance. One might imagine how the theme song for (say) Only Fools & Horses might provide the basis for quite fantasic developments all of which would be of significant interest to the genuine folklorist. However, if you isolated 100 (mostly) GWTMC Folkies in a similar fashion, then all you'd get is the same stuff they've always been singing, self-consciously done by way of preserving (or otherwise singing about) an enshrined, romanticised & entirely depolulated past; an empty heritage (the Abandoned Village Project anyone?) which might only appeal to the likes of us - and Conrad, of course, who still might ponder why the real folk stay away in droves.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 18 Sep 10 - 04:48 AM

Don, you're right when you say that Conrad is trying to find a justification for his behaviour. However he is highly selective in what parts of the "folk experience" he wants to enjoy.

The reality is that the eating and drinking he considers to be an inseparable part of the "folk experience" was something the "peasants" he identifies with would have experienced only a few times a year - at the Harvest Feast, at Christmas, and perhaps two or three other seasonal celebrations. The rest of the time, the picture painted by Flora Thompson is more accurate, with hard-up men trying to eke out their half-pints to last the evening.

As for food, their diet would have been limited and monotonous (no fries then, but at least Conrad wouldn't have to complain about the price), and they would have eaten at home rather than in the pub.

Then there's the work (remember work, Conrad?) - hard physical labour, outdoors in all weathers, for low pay.

Of course, no health care, and amateur dentistry. Anyone for rickets?

No transport - to get anywhere you'd have to walk (better get rid of those cars, Conrad)

The simple fact is that life for the people who would once have been "peasants" has changed dramatically, and mostly for the better. It is at least in part due to these changes that most of the "peasants" no longer feel the need to enjoy the "folk experience" and turn to mass-produced entertainment. Folk music is now enjoyed in a very different environment and in a very different context.

Conrad's biggest mistake is to believe that his drunken and obnoxious behaviour would have been any more acceptable to his "peasants" than it is today. All the accounts indicate that whilst the occasional over-indulgence may have been overlooked, persistent heavy drinking was strongly disapproved of.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 07:52 PM

"Beer and wine prices are kept high" ...

... because of the Government Excise and Tax, mate, the pub gets very little ....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 07:30 PM

Being a failure. The bombast and brag belie the low self-esteem of a personality who has met with limited success.

Either that or he's just an asshole.......

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 06:35 PM

Conrad's idea of "the folk experience" is rather like one of the shadows on the wall of Plato's Cave:   vague and ill-defined and revealing little about its true nature (if any). It's a shadow within his own mind that bears little resemblance to anything in the real world.

There is a great variety of activities and circumstances that one could consider a "folk experience." But this is after the fact. Those "folk" who actually participated in these activities never thought of them in these terms. A young mother singing a lullaby to a restless baby probably doesn't say to herself with great awe and wonder, "My goodness, I'm having a folk experience! Nor does the crew member on a four-masted schooner who is hauling on a line to raise the sails with a bunch of other men—and singing a chantey in order to establish a rhythm so they're all pulling at the same time instead of working against each other doesn't suddenly stop amd think, "Well, shiver me timbers! We're all havin' us a 'folk experience!'" Nor the logger sitting by the fire in the bunkhouse with his mates after a long day's work and singing "Come all ye's" for entertainment think, "This is a 'folk experience!'" Nor, for that matter, does the young milkmaid playing a bit of "slap and tickle" with her shepherd swain out behind the barn as he sings a courting song think, "My goodness! I'm have a 'folk experience!'"

Nor, do I believe, a bunch of the guys sitting in a pub, all singing "Come landlord, fill the flowing bowl" or "Ninety-nine bottles of beer on the wall" as they swill down pints all suddenly stop, look at each other in amaze, and say—in chorus, "We're having us a folk experience!!"

Except, perhaps, Conrad, as his eyes cross and he starts to slide under the table.

No. It's obvious by now that he merely wants to find some sort of excuse or social sanction for simply getting hammered, sloshed, shit-faced, tanked, blitzed, bombed, wrecked, three sheets to the wind, drunk, loose, tipsy, trashed, jagged up, canned, smashed, fucked-up, intoxicated, inebriated, annihilated, laced, legless, and pukingly paralytic.

The guy's nothing more than an obnoxious drunk, and he's trying to make the fact not only socially acceptable, but somehow admirable!

Sorry. No sale!

Here's a question that might be worth contemplating:

I wonder what Conrad is hiding from?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 02:39 PM

You can now get food in most UK pubs. However they don't provide it as a service - usually it's their main money-spinner as income from drinks has to be shared with the company which owns the pub. Nevertheless, some pubs do sometimes give sandwiches to the musicians - but this is by no means widespread.

However my comments were referring to earlier times when the "tradition" was still alive. Likewise, I was referring to the nineteenth century temperance movement, not to drinking habits today.

I agree it's hard to avoid drinking beer in a bar, but there's really no obligation on you to eat their fries. If their fries are too expensive, eat elsewhere beforehand.

UK folk clubs generally charge for admission, but they do not as a rule provide food (folk clubs are not run by the pub landlord but by enthusiasts who hire a room). Just occasionally there might be food for a special occasion, and sometimes there may be food at a dance. I do not believe that the BBC would give pub food prices, not just because of their strict rules against advertising but because the programmes have very limited time and would not waste it on such trivia. However if food were included as part of the ticket price then it might get mentioned.

Competition works in a more complicated way than just price - quality pays a part too. A successful venue has to be suitable for music, and a number of factors play a part, including the shape of the room, the nature of the seating, and the room's acoustics. Hard though you might find it to believe, for most people the price of beer doesn't really come into it, although the quality might. There are many venues, expensive ones as well as cheap ones, which are unsuitable for music for various reasons. Yes, musicians can gather in "great wonderful cheap places", but the thing that get them there is that they're wonderful, not that they're cheap.

Face it Conrad, people aren't going to relocate their successful folk evenings just because you don't like the price of the beer. If you can find a "great wonderful cheap place" which is suitable for music and where musicians would be made welcome, then there's nothing stopping you from getting some musicians along there yourself.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 12:19 PM

From About.com:

"Many times when family and friends try to "help" alcoholics, they are actually making it easier for them to continue in the progression of the disease.
This baffling phenomenon is called enabling, which takes many forms, all of which have the same effect -- allowing the alcoholic to avoid the consequences of his actions. This in turn allows the alcoholic to continue merrily along his (or her) drinking ways, secure in the knowledge that no matter how much he screws up, somebody will always be there to rescue him from his mistakes."

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 12:11 PM

Yes my wife is an enabler! Everyone should have several enablers in their lives. Much better than a grimmicing restrainer! Or limiter.

Get used to it- in the folk world people sing, clap, tap their feet and drink and eat enthusiastically- been doing it for centuries. Get out of the way of the train. Do what ever you wish but dont try to censor the tradition. Too much of the addiction to sensitivity and discrimination. You make my point very well.

We have a pool of 40 or so regulars. CFFP

As oft stated- read Ben Johnson and others from the 16th and 17th centuries to learn of the traditions as developed then. Freeing the muse has nothing to do with drunkenness. However its not sitting in a corner with one lite beer all evening being dissabled by your wife ever five minutes when you think about having another round. Heaven help the husband of the disablement gal.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 12:00 PM

Don't think it is incidental. The folk experienc is a complex package with lots of elements, artifacts and complexity. You can not extract a part and still claim it to be whole.

Yes there is a wide spectrum always. You can always find those who would consume more or less. The problem is that the medium or average is signifcantly higher than that today. We are indeed in the midst of a temperance movement but that is combined with a conspicuous consumption trend that pits people one against the other to determine not how much one can drink but how much one can pay in excess of market price for a pint. It is a status thing to gather with your folksong singing friends at the most expensive places where the cost of a pint is $6.00 or more.

The classic example of temperance is the transition of Joe Wilson- he ran a pub and did performances and published. Half way through he went tea totaller. But I suspect he was doing that more for business as the market had changed and he relied heavily on publishing.

Yes women were technically barred from pubs - from anything beyond the scales. However, loads of exceptions well documented. When the men wanted them in they came in and pubs varried as to their configuration. Often it depended upon the age of a woman sometimes they were confined to the lounge or snug.

Traditionally there was significant polarization. But I would not insist on it as the record is filled with exceptions. Both as performers and as audience. Many songs were kept by women only.

Listening to BBC programming I find that most folk club and other venues provide prices for admission along with food and at prices which would make a trip over well worth it on the food savings alone.
When I went to Durham we always found good food everywhere. And again provided as a service rather than a money maker ripping people off.


Pubs come in a spectrum of types. For a good survey see My Left Foot where a variety of pub styles are provided.

I always could find great meat pies in Newcastle pubs in the 70s and also in the 60s when I grew up in london. Sometimes food is an aquired taste but here we have to pay a kings ransom for a simple order of fries......all because thats where the musicians make us go.
That doesnt have to happen as they can gather in great wonderful cheap places.

I was interviewed by the Voice of america a few years ago. I was asked to take a reporter and video around to the best baltimore pubs.
All on the government credit card mind you. We were out from 11 am till 3 am the next day for two days. Several pints in each place done quickly. Truly amazing. The reporter was amazed at the low cost- so amazed that he asked me to take him to two upscale places for which he also paid.....and even then he found them cheaper than his local dc places.

The way capitalism works is through competition. Move the music to the cheapest place. There is a great Hoot in Laurel Maryland on main street in a moderate to low cost place-amazing to find one- they are filling the place with enthusiastic folk. Quite a different atmosphere to the more expensive venues where people think they are at the opera or something and you get angry looks if you would so much as clap or tap your foot.

Restrictive atmospheres stifle rather than promote the folk experience. Might feel good to you but its not doing good.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 11:43 AM

"before the grand project evolved we came up with our own ritual"

How many collaborators do you have, Conrad? Or do you use the royal "we"? What role does your wife have in this? You say she works for a living and you don't. When I came to examine my own relationship with a man of profound pronouncements and endless appetite for beer, I learned the term ENABLER.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 11:11 AM

Conrad, no one is denying that drinking, and sometimes heavy drinking, accompanied folk song. What we are challenging is your assertion that it is an essential element, rather than being merely ncidental.

Of the customs you mention, only wassailing centres around the actual drinking (and not all forms of that - the key elements of the apple wassails are firing the guns and sprinkling the trees). In the Mari Lwyd, the key element is the poetic battle of wits between the visitors and those inside the house.

What you overlook is that when times were hard (as they often were) people weren't able to drink heavily. It didn't stop them singing. Flora Thompson describes in Lark Rise to Candleford how the men had to confine themselves to half-pints: "None of them got drunk; they had not money enough, even with beer, and good beer at that, at two-pence a pint". She goes on to describe how they would nevertheless sing the old songs and ballads until closing time.

There was also a strong temperance movement and a number of singers would have been teetotal.

Other than at the celebrations Will describes, food would not have played much of a part either. English pubs only began to serve food in the last 20 or 30 years (and edible food more recently than that). Before then, all you could find were pickled onions and pickled eggs, packets of crisps, and maybe a few unappealing sandwiches. It's unlikely that at the time Thompson writes about (the 1880s) the village pub would have served any sort of food - why should it, when its customers' homes were all within walking distance?

Even today, other than on special occasions, it would be unusual to find food at an English folk club, and would be considered discourteous to performers and audience to bring food into the club room. At sessions, sometimes the landlord will produce sandwiches for the performers, but this is not usual. The only time food is commonly consumed is during all-day sessions when people naturally pause to eat at mealtimes.

Pubs in the past were also men-only. Do you bar women from your folk gatherings on grounds of "authenticity"? (Sorry, ladies, for putting the idea in his head, but if it means not having to endure Conrad's company I doubt you'll mind too much.)

What you describe as "freeing the muse" most of us would call "getting drunk". However, having heard how your muse behaves when it's freed I suspect most of us would prefer you to keep it well locked up.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 09:50 AM

For some of the best accounts of wassail drinking go to the liner notes for some of the Topic record compilations. I have them on line somewhere.

One of the accounts tells of two wassailers- specialists who appeared year after year with a big wassail can. They took this door to door adding more and more wassail and cake and ended their journey at the back room of the local pub from which they did not emerge for several days.

I am not messing with your personal preferences here. Whatever you wish to make of it. But....I am concerned that popular expectations lead these days to people frowning on consumption of alchol which is anything over the minimum.

I would make the case that traditional means a higher level of moderation than is currently provided for or tolerated and that because of this those who do it properly feel alienated or excluded therefor organizers of events should be more tolerant and open to the customs of others to broaden participation and stop the exclusivity based upon alcohol consumption that occurs.

This take several forms either the event has alcohol free enforcement or in the horror that the muses of participants might be awakened alcohol is strictly rationed.

This is the same thing that happens in local eateries here.

Beer and wine prices are kept high simply to discourage consumption. They want fast turn around eat your food drink your one very expensive beer and leave.

I had to laugh at a mexican place that transitioned to a one pitcher per person rule. The problem was that while one pitcher is a drop in the bucket for me one half a pitcher would put my wife on the floor asleep. All about metabolism. They lost lots of business from me. I used to turn the heat down in the winter and take my armload of books and sit in a corner of the place doing research all day. I could never make one pitcher last for 8 hours neither was I intoxicated at the end of the day and along with the beer I also bought quite a bit of food.

Onward.....I have to appear for free music food and drink for the artcar show at H Street NE   Gallery O on H. They do a great successful festival- why? I helped them organize it. They do free food and drink for all of us for three days. The main festival is Saturday come on down. When this sort of arrangement exists participants do much more. The festival is free to the public therefore some of the cartists who sell art do much better. The food is great- best street food in the region and lots of local gospel.

I will launch my capitalessistic conceptual art project saturday at H street.
http://mysite.verizon.net/cbladey/transart/transart1.html
capitalessistic art project


Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 09:34 AM

Absolutely- see the oberamergau passion play tradition in the 20th century.
I added these in the early stages of wassail epicenter development. Actually before the grand project evolved we came up with our own ritual-not actually having much to do with wassail then we merged with more and more research creating a highly accurate traditional observance that it is today. (I have no problem adding slowly and gradually to the tradition but the requirement is that the early and well researched songs and customs dominate.)

In addition to mummer's plays one sees through time and merging here and there with the first night masque traditions the evolution of the christmas pageant which became quite essential for all elementary schools in the USA by the 50s.

I relate the appearance of drama in association with wassail to the liberation of the muses of the participants. Take a group of men add alcohol to the required level (remember never drunk and disorderly but it will take more than one) and one gets sillyness and drama. This tradition goes way back in the english tradition. Wassail is all about alcohol and that can not be disputed ever no way no how. Watch for my book.

Wassail traditions wax and wane through time. One of the biggest problems to hit it was the development of craft specialization. Villages would produce one select group- troupe- of wassailers and as in the mumming tradition this became exclusive and almost hereditary. This is more the case in villages and more urban areas whereas in the most rural places it was more open to anyone who turned up. Occasionally this was in large numbers. There were keepers of songs though but it was more a group activity. Specialization comes from the first night tradition and the masque which produced court or manor sponsored groups of players and was by nature more exclusive. The staff of the manor or big house would of course take part but it was far from a community act.

Nothing wrong with specialization but it does make survivability much more precarious. Disease and warfare would take out the one group of players, wassailers in one blow leaving the wassail bowls rotting in the barn to be rediscovered. This is one of my motivations to encourage the break up of specialization and the widening of the potential audience and pool of performers. If it is the choice between loosing the music and less than perfect performance that preserves the music I go with the latter.

I have opened my work to all wassail manefestations in the british isles. Some call these visiting customs however sometimes people dont go anywhere but still do wassail.....Therefore the Bull and Mari are included.

My encounter with the bull comes from tetbury tradition which is recorded in the Carpenter collection at the library of congress where I have worked.

One of the interesting things about bringing things around with the wassailers is that they fit right in with the tendency of groups of men and perhaps women to become animated by their muses. I myself have often found myself in groups of men walking back from a night out or on drinking excursions walking the power lines or rails who without any ancient tradition to draw on pick up found items and act out. That this has happened in the past and become institutionalized is easy to understand. But this is not something that most people will do without a bit of liberation libation.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 08:37 AM

The Second Shepherd's Play was not of course performed by shepherds, but by the townspeople - not peasants. Many of the roles, especially the more important ones, would probably have been taken by what today we would think of as the middle classes. Unlike the York and Chester plays, the Wakefield plays don't seem to be associated with the craft guilds but were probably sponsored by a religious organisation or the town's government (and so were dependent on public money, I'm afraid).

Neither is it a folk play, but rather a piece of literature written by a gifted and innovative (but still unidentified) poet.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 08:10 AM

From Conrad's webpage -

Plays For Wassailing
Wassail is closely related to the mumming traditions. Mummers also travel from door to door. They perform plays and drama do tricks and sing. This play dates from the 15th century and is a good piece of drama to add to your Wassail experience.
The Second Shepherd's Play
The Second Shepherd's play is part of the Wakefield Cycle. (Wakefield is in Northern England) It was performed with the other plays in the cycle early in the morning during the feast of Corpus Christ.

The Second Shepherd's Play from Wakefield is a Mystery play not a Mummers play. The Feast of Corpus Christi follows one of those complicated formulas beloved of the church. It falls in May or June.

Again well researched very authentic. Really?

Why am I bothering with this?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 08:03 AM

Yes the song forum site is useful. I was familiar with the childlaw talk. It is a source for my forthcoming book.

I have worked with Martin Graebe who came to visit me a few years back. He is a brilliant source of all kinds of things specializing in Baring-gould materials. He is responsible for the forum site.

Good that you mentioned wassail- I challenge anyone to find any reference to moderate or low level consumption of alcohol in the many many historical accounts of wassail.

I fear that folk music has fallen into the hands of a rather cromwellian puritanical group. Perhaps this has something to do with alternative lifestyles and focus upon sexual activity in modern society. I have seen a revival in our area of bawdy song nights.... Perhaps these alternative types, oft found in folklore circles (great people they are too) encountered the relationship between alcohol and "brewers droop" which I can see as spoiling some fun. So perhaps as sexuality has taken more of a center stage alcohol is seen as a threat.

Many of you would do best giving up contemplating your own contempoary practice navels and study some folklore.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,surreysinger sans cookie
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 06:14 AM

I knew that the wassailing thing sounded familiar, so have just been googling. Herewith
Conrad's blog .I could have chosen the Wassail site (to which there is a link in the blog), but was spluttering too much. Could someone tell me how one "Wassails one's brains out" ? Doesn't sound like the wassailing events I am familiar with (although drink is certainly consumed). I shall certainly be going Wassailing on Twelfth Night next year as every year for the last seven or eight ... but don't expect quite such a mind blowing experience. Just a load of fun and good company walking round the town, visiting local hostelries while the Mummer's play is performed, and singing wassail songs, with an occasional drink (sip to be exact on my part) from the wassail bowl.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 05:39 AM

Skivee: I've seen you invite yourself to a private party after a festival. At that party, you repeatedly interupted invited guests mis-song to squeak out unrecognizable tunes on a penny whistle. When asked, you admitted that you had no idea what tune *YOU* were tooting out. You were just making noise to screw with the folks who'd been asked to sing songs for our hosts.

WHY am I not in the least surprised? I've tried to stay away from this thread to avoid encouraging this guy, who seems to have an ego the size of the Andromeda Galaxy, but an intellect the size of a Bottom Quark. However, it's a bit like having a nice crusty scab on your arm...I just can't avoid picking at it now and then.

And Don's posts are worth the occasional visit, for sure :-)

WF: Get rid of the accretions and junk in your back yard and grow your own food. Work hard - harder than you've ever worked in your life - and live simply.

Will, I know someone who's done *just* this. Given up his well-paid job as a Deputy Head teacher and bought a small-holding. He works like a demon, dawn to dusk, tied to the land. He can't go away even for a day as the pigs, ducks, geese etc all need feeding...and you can't impose on friends to do the feeding too often. You're right: he's never worked so hard in his life, and for a negligible income, even though he gets a decent price for his veg and fruit, and sells his meat direct. I think you met him...he duetted with me at the High Brooms Tavern session you came to. The tired-looking , thin one with the bags under his eyes :-)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 05:34 AM

Okay......I'm ready to start negotiating a trade. Anyone who can take such pride in being B.O. Plenty as well as a boorish and gluttonous asshole has got to go. Let's start the talks at a straight up, one-for-one trade with WAV.........Both countries need a change!!!


Spaw