The Concept of FREED Folkmusic

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 05:29 AM

It seems that we can learn things even from Conrad. From -
Wassail Songs and Carols from Gloucestershire

Ref to Genner's Anthem.


And then Jack gave us both a tot of whisky, although he normally didn't touch the stuff. And I cannot remember if we continued with the driving lesson or not !


And so I come to the collecting of Wassail Songs. You'll remember that it was for that reason that I went to see Sally and Granny Frankcom. I had got an inkling that there were versions of this song to found in different places. I think that I had seen Alfred Williams's Thames Head Wassailers' Song by then and at least one other printed text, perhaps in the Gloucestershire Notes and Queries Vol 1, The main difference in collecting these songs was that they were songs that belonged to a community and were sung by groups. The differences weren't just the idiosyncrasies of an individual singer and I set myself to find out whether the versions could be said to be clearly identified as the tune and set of words which belonged to that locality. The variety might have been like Bill Davis's Badminton version, which had a variant tune for each verse, but I feel that, over the years, I have been able to establish this. The Tresham Wassail differs from the text with which most people will be familiar in the Oxford Book of Carols, in that there is only one animal, the Ox, which is being addressed. In wassailing the ox, a variety of good things are wished on the household which the group of wassailers is visiting. They are a group of men who expect to be given drink and food in return for their good wishes. Gran's father, William Chappell, born in 1845, was in a party of wassailers but it was called Mummying. They had an ox's head (made out of a hollowed out swede) on a pole and a small wooden bowl. We shall meet the ox's head again in a moment. The song also has a chorus. Vaughan Williams's version in The Oxford Book of Carols is a mixture of a variety of bits and pieces and the tune, which he collected in Pembridge in Herefordshire from Gloucestershire singers, also has a chorus in the original manuscript.


Ref to Tresham Wassail.


Now the ox was also known as Broad. In wills from the 16th century, local farmers leave their cattle by name to various members of the family. Broad is an ox name which goes back a good way. The Tresham Swede may not be very impressive, but other villages had more expensively constructed Bull's Heads. If you are interested in reading about this, you should refer to Ritual Animal Disguise by E.C.Cawte pp.142 – 8. I have given him all my material about the subject.


One village which had a well-made bull was Horton and the group of young men would bring it to Little Sodbury Manor where the Hatherell family were farming and they would sing their version of the wassail to the accompaniment of ribs of beef, tambourine, jew's harp and mouthorgan. The lad inside the bull would roar and go at the girls and make them scream.

This, however is the Wassail Ox/Broad/Bull not the Christmas Bull. I have found references to Christmas bull running which seems to be of Spanish origin and survives to some extent in the Lesser Antilles and Costa Rica. It does not involve costumes or heads fashioned from swedes but real live kicking and snorting and goring bulls.

Go for it Conrad.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 04:27 AM

What's all this nonsense about preserving traditions? You appear to have a very peculiar and limited set of traditions in your head. These seem to have sprung from some imaginary, Breughel-esque period in which folk music was created and played by peasants who took a bath once a year and couldn't make music without guzzling food and swilling beer. Any half-decent research into the social history of, say, medieval England would clear your head of that idea.

There were indeed points in the English farm worker's year when, after the harvest gathering and the sheep-shearing (for example), the men would gather to sing and celebrate their hard work. But note: they each contributed money towards the evening - some of that, in the case of the shearing, coming from fines levied by the gaffer for those making mistakes in the shearing. The men, of course, tried their hardest to cause each other to make mistakes, and the fines - such as they were, because the men were very good at their job - were totted up on the final payday. The "hollerin-pot" evening (for example) and other similar events were carefully organised and, naturally, held in the pub and paid for. But the songs that were sung were not created or only sung in food-guzzling and beer-swilling environments. They were sung at home in the family circle, or in the fields, or while out for the day on a holiday. And the real point is that these songs were sung out of love of the words and the melodies, for the stories they told and the feelings they expressed, for the sheer pleasure of singing - not as an excuse for getting pissed.

If you want to get a true picture of this sort of life - from the late 19th to the early 20th century, and probably much earlier, then I commend you to read "A Song For Every Season" by Bob Copper. This was the real tradition - not the quasi-yippie bier-fest you seem to think it to have been. If you want to get a picture of the hygienic and sanitary arrangements - including keeping clean - of 14th century English peasants, try reading Ian Mortimer's "The Time Traveller's Guide To Medieval England". And try quoting some sources for your own assertions sometime.

If you really want to lead the peasant's life, Conrad, sell off the "artcars" and buy a donkey. Get rid of the accretions and junk in your back yard and grow your own food. Work hard - harder than you've ever worked in your life - and live simply. Throw away the computer and the radio and the TV. Oh, and tug your forelock as the Lord of the Manor passes by...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 04:05 AM

"drink at a high level of moderation" Now that's a phrase I must remember!

Mari Lwyd is Welsh, as has already been pointed out, and is a different and separate tradition from wassailing. I'd never heard of the bull's head Christmas custom Conrad refers to but google tells me that in Romania:

carol-singers are sometimes accompanied by bogeys known as brezaia, capra or turca—that is, men with the head of a goat or bull and a long beak which claps now and again, when pulled by a string. They go from house to house, and dance and recite verses, mostly of a satirical turn

Conrad seems happy to mix traditions from various unrelated cultures - hardly "authentic". And I'd be interested to know the traditional authority for the Mayday "green bike".

I happen to be one of the unemployed Conrad is so concerned about. I am no way deterred from attending folk events by the price of beer. Tonight I shall be visiting this nearby pub to play music where the beer is £2.45 a pint (imperial) - $3.85 - which is cheap compared with many places in the UK. No doubt Conrad would regard this as expensive. We go there because we are made welcome, we enjoy the beer, the atmosphere of a 300 year old pub. And because musicians have been doing so for at least 30 years to my personal knowledge. The price of beer is not a consideration.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 12:16 AM

"Happy tea totaling to you. I dont mind your habits."

I'm hardly a "tea totaler, Conrad. (By the way, that's spelled "teetotaler"). I do drink tea. I also drink coffee. And I enjoy a beer, especially on a sunny summer afternoon. I haven't had hard liquor for some time, not because I am opposed to it, but simply because it rarely occurs to me (although I do enjoy a good mixed drink or a straight shot, but I don't really miss it—as I say, it rarely occurs to me). I do enjoy a nice glass of good wine, either by itself with meals from time to time. I never drink Coke or Pepsi or soft drinks in general. They make me burp!

I haven't been drunk since I was in college and boozing it up with other equally immature students. I don't particularly enjoy being dizzy, with the ominous threat of possibly barfing my guts up, a sign of "intoxication," which, if you analyze the word, means that you have poisoned yourself, and you throw it up because your body, being smarter than you are, is trying to get rid of what you have stupidly ingested. And I do not enjoy having my judgment impaired.

And my muse in alive and well and doing just fine without artificial stimulants, thank you very much! By the way, it is well you don't mind my habits, because you really have no say in the matter.

"You should stick to the point-"

I have been sticking to the point. You're the one who's wandering all over hell's half acre.

"having folk music events in expensive places locks out the poor folk
simple!"

Coffeehouses and pubs where many events are held are not particularly expensive. If you think a cup of specialty coffee or a pint of beer is expensive, you should find out how much mixed drinks cost in a cocktail lounge, many of which charge a cover as well when they offer entertainment. And I have never met a "poor" person who couldn't afford the price of a beer now and then. In fact, one often sees poor people drinking screw-top wine out of bottles hidden in brown paper bags as they sit in back alleys leaning against Dumpsters.

And there are lots of places where "poor folk" can hear folk music and other kinds of music if they wish. There are buskers and street musicians all over the place. All one has to do is stand there and listen. It's customary to drop a bill or a few coins into their hat or instrument case, but no one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to do so.

Actually, Conrad, listening to buskers and street musicians is really getting close to the very roots of folk music. Many of the songs and ballads that have come down to us through time were first composed and sung by wandering minstrels and troubadours carrying the news in song form from town to town.

"but rather than admit it you attack me."

There is nothing to admit. And I'm not attacking you, I'm serving you a badly needed reality sandwich.

"so you are supporting the view that john p proposed - folk music venues have no place for unemployed people or thrifty shoppers!"

I don't see where John said anything like that. You DO have reading comprehension problems. Really, Conrad, you should ease off on the booze consumption. It's keeping you befuddled.

"I think your problem is that you think things are working at top speed and they are working at extra slow and you are too old to accept change. You like exclusivity as you are under the impression that you make more that way WRONG"

I don't have any problems, Conrad. Things move at their own speed, and as far as my being "too old to accept change," I've been through all kinds of changes in all kinds of things since I've been on this earth. No sweat. And I have never made any brief for exclusivity. In fact, in spreading interest in folk music, I've made every effort to include as many people as possible. If I were as interested in making money as you keep accusing me of being, I'd be a helluva lot richer than I am.

"Rock and Roll and Jazz are not folk music any more than Classical Music is folk music.

"There are borrowings and shared elements but it is generally well recognized that there are individual and distinct genres of music. It is trendy to claim that there are none but it doesnt really help analysis and that is what definitions are for."

Anything is folk music that folk musicians decide to adopt, adapt, and play. It may take some time for a song or piece of music to become accepted as folk music, but all folk songs and ballads started out as composed pieces and were adopted and adapted. Some folklorist you are if you don't know THAT!!

And, yes, there are distinct elements between genres of music, but there have always been borrowings and cross-overs from one genre to another. This holds not just for folk music, but for all genres of music.

What, for example, is an operatic overture if it is being played as part of a symphony concert and not actually going to be followed by the opera? Or an orchestral arrangement of a Chopin nocturne? Or a medley of popular songs played by a symphony orchestra (the stock-in-trade of the Boston Pops Orchestra)? Or when a popular song composer takes the melody of a Chopin piano sonata and writes words to it? Or when a jazz combo does riffs on a bunch of Broadway show tunes?

Or when operatic bass-baritone George London sings "Lord Randal?"

A lot of singers of folk songs these days are singing songs such as "Hard Times Come Again No More" which was written by Stephen Foster. Some don't even know it was written by Foster.

How about this:    "Eighteen of Stephen Foster's compositions were recorded and released on the Beautiful Dreamer: The Songs of Stephen Foster collection. Among the artists who are featured on the album are John Prine, Ron Sexsmith, Alison Krauss, Yo Yo Ma, Roger McGuinn, Mavis Staples, and Suzy Bogguss. The album won the Grammy for 'Best Traditional Folk Album' in 2005."

How about a song such as "Greensleeves?" Regarded by many as the quintessential English folk song (arguable, of course), but it has never undergone the "folk process." The words and tune are the same as they were in 1580.

Many singer-songwriters insist on calling their songs "folk songs," even though they really don't sound anything like traditonal folk songs. Yet a singer-songwriter such as Maine singer Gordon Bok, who knows whereof he writes, has written a number of songs which are indistiguishable from traditional songs. In fact, I know a number of singers who regularly sing songs by Gordon Bok, fully convinced that they are traditional and totally unaware that Gordon wrote them.

So—tell me again about those "individual and distinct" definitions of what folk music is and what it is not?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 10:35 PM

Yeah it is discussing irrelevant aspects of the author in question.

Hey frogprince- most of the tradition of folk music was created and played by people for whom bathing was very very optional- once a year maybe.

Obviously these fine points are more important than expansion of the tradition and preservation of the musical treasures.

I dont count time or number of posts!

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: frogprince
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 10:30 PM

For 3 weeks, and 560 posts, people here have been going around and around with someone who considers anyone who bathes, and doesn't guzzle beer by the gallon at music events, an elitest slob, who has every right to barrel drunkenly thru scattering crowds because he has sufficient skills to drive fast, who thinks it's a great idea for everyone to go to the toilet in the bushes at music events.........

   Is there anything odd about this picture?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 10:19 PM

I detest playing to poor people, they dribble and smell.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 09:42 PM

Don-

Happy tea totaling to you. I dont mind your habits.

You should stick to the point-

having folk music events in expensive places locks out the poor folk
simple!

but rather than admit it you attack me.

so you are supporting the view that john p proposed - folk music venues have no place for unemployed people or thrifty shoppers!

yes there is some merit in spreading folk music to the wealthy classes but there is no merit in limiting it in any way.

I think your problem is that you think things are working at top speed and they are working at extra slow and you are too old to accept change. You like exclusivity as you are under the impression that you make more that way WRONG

Rock and Roll and Jazz are not folk music any more than Classical Music is folk music.

There are borrowings and shared elements but it is generally well recognized that there are individual and distinct genres of music. It is trendy to claim that there are none but it doesnt really help analysis and that is what definitions are for.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 09:19 PM

"Not a grain of sugar anywhere.

This is butchering a tradition that has held together for centuries"

Ah - so his concept of 'folk music' only goes back to about the 1700s when slave sugar plantations were established to create cheap sugar.... Sugar prior to then was a luxury item. So Conrad, like his friend WAV, both have very limited distorted views of the world due to a profound lack of academic study of History & Culture. So much for any waffle about 'earlier times', then ....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 08:39 PM

Conrad, John P. is the kind of musician who inspires other people to learn to sing and play. Just by performing, he has quite probably done more to spread interest in folk music than a whole regiment of people such as you. Actually, Conrad, when it comes to increasing interest in, and enlarging the audience for, folk music, you are counterproductive.

I believe Skivee has blown the whistle on you, little man! Actually, rather than spreading interest in folk music, you are the kind of boor that tends to drive people away from it.

"I am an academic and folk musician...."

No. You are just a pompous twit. Nothing more than a legend in your own beer-sodden mind.

I have two words for youGO AWAY!Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 08:13 PM

We have four artcars no plain cars. Here we have to have cars so the bier budget sufferers.....



Again - no reason to pay more than lowest market price for beer or food.
Any argument that it does not matter what it costs is really not a good one. Yes people avoid places where they are getting ripped off for food and drink.

Folk musicians working with landlords jack the prices up, play only in expensive places and bring in audiences who like that poor people are excluded. This should not happen.

Folk musicians should think to bring their music to inexpensive plain places or free ones. And by free concerts I dont mean concerts paid for with government grants. That is simply taking money from poor people and the unemployed. Oh I forgot- they dont need to have music.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 08:06 PM

John P that was wonderful- gainfully employed what a riot! You are the poster child for the crowd that wants to limit the spread of folk music!
You want to keep out the unemployed. Shame on you.

You can dance anywhere. Go to a park and dance Generally people do lots of things in parks, sing dance play guitars no one minds generally. Generally when money is involved this becomes problematic. But simply arrange for groups of people to meet in public spaces. Easy.

Another classic John P- people who drink at a high level of moderation are alcoholics. Yes that is the view of the anti drink neo prohibitionists it is simple discrimination and that is wrong.

You need to read of the history of drink in western culture. I am an academic and folk musician....nothing wrong with knowing things and with folk culture our obligation is to take care of it and know some things. So John P- your argument is for mindlessness. Not good.

John- learn of the lives of the people that made the music- then you will find out that your views of it stifle it.

Thank you thesnail- Mari Lwyd is welsh. We will do the entire ritual this year complete with horse skull head and music and recitations should be great.

Wassail well get my 900 page book on the subject or maybe my short guide do the wassail. Wassail is an ancient and complex custom. No one culture owns it.

The Christmas bull- goes out with wassailers enters house runs through and out again. Much fun. We now have a proper bull skull costume.

Yes the memory fails me but it was a while back. Nothing wrong with requesting a song however- musicians get upset because they dont know enough songs. Yes part of the trade off for volunteerism is occasionally mentioning your pet project but I am quite certain I never introduced a welsh choir. I drive at festivals all the time. I have a perfect driving record. Skll may allow for greater speeds. But then why talk about me here- I know....you are loosing the argument!

We need to free folk music not continually state that change is not necessary just because we "like" things as they are.

Liking it or having done it for years is no reason to stop change. Accessibility is important and it is easy to find out if the arrangements employed limit or extend it. Simple! And no excuse for limiting in any way the access to folk music and traditions.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 07:57 PM

hey don there is no defense for keeping prices high. Folk music is for everyone more than every other genre. It is special. It is for peasants nto for your elitist bozos that you seem to excuse.

How many motor vehicles do you own, Conrad?

How much beer could buy if you sold that truck you can't be trusted to drive?

(I haven't been able to afford a car since 1972. I can easily afford all the beer I want to drink).

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 07:55 PM

Rock and roll is folk music..

In the 'golden olden tymes' which Conrad imaginatively describes, people were just playing the popular songs of the time - the ones catchy enough to remember. Pop music, as it's become known. They'd never even contemplated the notion of 'folk music'. What we are now calling Folk Music is nowt but old pop music.

Maybe I should run for cover now.. :-)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Leadfingers
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 07:19 PM

As raised by Popagator - Alan FREED only ever played Rock and Roll !

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 07:10 PM

Wassail- growing now about 5th year. Music, food, meat pies, wassail in several forms and smoking bishop, plum cakes. Again well researched very authentic. This year we will get out our new horse skull mari lwyd

Wassail is Anglo-Saxon, the Mari Lwyd is Welsh.

and our bull skull christmas bull and do the related rituals.

Whaaaaat?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 07:08 PM

The more audience the better for the musician.

That depends entirely on the audience.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 06:55 PM

I'm so glad that Conrad lives in America.
He wouldn't survive 2 minutes in England.
So, just keep him on your side of the pond.
We've got enough nutters of our own. without thinking about importing foreigners.
FREED folkmusic......? Pah!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 06:45 PM

Bless you Skivee........THAT is the Conrad we all knew was in there!

LMAO......Actually there is little to find funny in that behavior but.............What say Ye Cornhole????


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 06:32 PM

Aha.. suspicions confirmed?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Skivee
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 06:08 PM

"Iam never ever intoxicated. Stop attacking the messenger"
Conrad, I have seen you drunk at several festivals. I've seen you drunkenly interupting performers on stage shouting out demands for your favorite songs...that had nothing in common with the performer's repetoire. One of the performers you did this to was me.
I've seen you invite yourself to a private party after a festival. At that party, you repeatedly interupted invited guests mis-song to squeak out unrecognizable tunes on a penny whistle. When asked, you admitted that you had no idea what tune *YOU* were tooting out. You were just making noise to screw with the folks who'd been asked to sing songs for our hosts.

I've seen you come breath-takingly close to running over festival participants by driving your truck down a crowded access road at 50mph just after closing. Venders were in the process of tearing down their displays and packing up. People were quite literally jumping out of your way to save their lives. You were gunning it so hard that you were throwing gravel behind you skidding. Make no mistake. You nearly killed people that day.

This was at a fest where you had volunteered to be a stage announcer.
You talked about your personal "potato Famine" fetish for 15 minutes into a Welsh choir's 1/2 hour set, then cut them off after they'd done 15 minutes because you "had to keep the stage on schedule." There's a reason that you aren't asked to announce at many festivals in the area anymore.
I could share other stories of your drunken self-serving inappropirateness, but I doubt you even remember these few that I've related.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: John P
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 05:56 PM

You dont need organizations, halls or anything else....

What, shall we just take over the street any time we want to dance? What shall we say to the police when they tell us we have to stop?
How will everyone know when and where they should turn up?
It rains most of the time here in Seattle. Dancing in a downpour is not a lot of fun.
Most people like some sort of dance floor.

Yes people who eat and drink free their muses and get a bit loud.

Most people would say that someone who needs drink to activate their muse is an alcoholic. Loud is just loud, and I'm not interested.

I can not possibly buy the detachment of music from food and drink as it just never was the case granted one can have a dry and foodless performance and that was done too but public playing was generally not in dry and foodless settings.

Utter bullshit. Support your statements or shut up. Besides, I'm not particularly interested in the history of this. That's for academics, not folk musicians.

Problem is why should it be in expensive places?

Expensive is a very subjective term. Problem is that you apparently don't have a job, so you are out of sync with your community. Try joining your community by being gainfully employed before you start railing at it about the price of beer.

For many limiting consumption of alcohol to extremely low levels is taken as a badge of saintliness- look at me I just had one. This is in effect elitist and stifles the folk environment.

How can I respond to this other than by saying: You arrogant twit? I don't take my low level of alcoholic consumption to be a sign of saintliness. It's just how I live. You are accusing me of stifling the folk environment because I don't drink a lot. Arrogant twit doesn't really cover it. Asshole works better.

John

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Chris Green
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 05:53 PM

Conrad, you are truly a national treasure. I haven't laughed this hard in ages. Thank you! :-)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 05:36 PM

One important point about freed music.

The music community should not be judgmental in regard to life way choices.

One can see right here in this thread how I was attacked by many just for my own well refined, beer drinking customs. This should never happen as it discourages participation in folk events. Same with politics. I am very convinced that liberal politics drives many away as does the healthy living and vegetarian kicks.

At the Baltimore Folk song and dance society I attended weekly dances at a local church. People were not dancing and eating and socializing they were doing a gym workout that used dance! Who ever heard of the folk dancing for fitness wearing headbands, sweat suits and tennis shoes!
Who would really want to come to such an event? This happens when extreme people wishing to edit the tradition get in charge.

Additionally when the refreshments came out....I anticipated the scones, breads, jams cheeses of the tradition. No not for them - they had modified the tradition to only include fruit juices, carrots and great healthy food. Not a grain of sugar anywhere.

This is butchering a tradition that has held together for centuries and I did not return after the few that I attended. They only want the good people.

The point is to free music of censorial adaptation and try to make it accessible to the greatest number.

To liberate the muse is not to engage in drunkenness. Ben Johnson is clear on this. One should never leave any gathering with reputation tarnished but that does not mean that a very high, In our contemporary standard, consumption of alcohol was not the norm as it was. Strong "hot" wines- Johnson preferred canary.

Loosen up. Get folked. Do it right.

Doesnt mean you have to do this but you should not discourage others who wish to do it right.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 04:46 PM

Yes of course- music can happen any where not just bars.

Problem is why should it be in expensive places?

Yes if you bring down the price of beer those who wish to will consume more and more patrons/audience will choose to attend and the landlord will do quite a bit better via increased volume. The more audience the better for the musician.

I can not possibly buy the detachment of music from food and drink as it just never was the case granted one can have a dry and foodless performance and that was done too but public playing was generally not in dry and foodless settings. And although I call it moderation the level of moderation was set significantly higher in the past.

My liver is just fine. I go to the doctor regularly and reserve drinking in quantity for special events.

You dont need organizations, halls or anything else.....

Yes people who eat and drink free their muses and get a bit loud.

I am reminded of Paddy Maloney of the Chieftains who I have met on several occasions and have talked with of the nature of the musical experience in depth.

He said that his main problem with US audiences was that they did not get up and dance, clap, make noise when he played energetic music designed to be accompanied by such. Even though he would at times send dancers into the isles the audience just sat there studying in an academic sense quiet unmoved. He believed that to be a sign of the detachment of the folk experience from the people.

For many limiting consumption of alcohol to extremely low levels is taken as a badge of saintliness- look at me I just had one. This is in effect elitist and stifles the folk environment.

Paying too much above market price is not just limiting it is stupid.

Yes I play bones, tin Whistle, brass instruments, currently alto horn.
Yes I have played professionally, I have managed large folk festival stages, I am a folklorist specializing in the Music of the North East, Ireland, Orange Order/unionist music and currently Bavarian Oktoberfest songs (I published the only complete songbook of these)

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 04:37 PM

I have also studied the folk music of the NE england specifically Newcastle upon Tyne in great depth.

I'm happy to report that Traditional Inebriated Ritual / Ceremonial Folk Life in Canny Newcassel continues to this day with the bold lads & lasses of Sandgate & the Bigg Market as wild as ever. Of course such Folk Life has precious little to do with Folk as we understand the term as used by Conrad, which is an elitist yuppie bourgeois middle-class construct and has little to do with the Real Folk / Geordie Urban Proletariat who continue to celebrate on the streets and to whom the very concept of Folk Music, FREED or otherwise, is, anathema.

For more, see HERE - or do a YouTube search for Bigg Market.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: John P
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 03:54 PM

Any time that music happens in a place of business there needs to be sufficient money changing hands. I won't play for free for someone who is making money from my performance. They won't pay me unless they are making money in some way. The idea of turning the bar scene into a socialist experiment is doomed to failure. Why would the bar owners agree to that? Why would I?

I am an extremely occasional drinker and I'm not an elitist. I don't play in taverns anymore because when people get drunk they get loud, rude, and inattentive. Been there and done that way too much. That doesn't make me an elitist, either. If there's an elitist here, it's the person who is accusing others of being failures because they don't live up to his ideas of how they ought to live.

I play a fair number of free gigs every year, almost always in the service of helping a venue get off the ground or to help spread folk music in some other way. I play at a lot of traditional folk dances that pay very minimally or not at all. Also, the only relation between performance and folk music is the repertoire. When I perform, I act like a professional, play carefully arranged music, and put on a show for an audience. There is nothing particularly (or specifically) "folky" about that. The times that I feel like I'm playing folk music in a folky way is when I'm just sitting around with friends playing old music. There is a dance we play at from time to time where there is no stage and no amplification. We just stand in the middle of the floor and everyone dances around us. It's lots of fun and feels very folky. Of course, the organization that puts on the dance still has to rent a hall, put out advertising, pay the bills, have a website, etc. Not unlike any other human endeavor in a society where things cost money.

I love the idea of free folk music, and engage in it often, at home, at friends houses, and out in public. Expecting it to happen in a place where someone is trying to earn a living is clueless.

Saying that food and drink are an integral part of the folk music experience is just plain wrong, in that I live most of my life in the folk music experience and there is no connection between music and drink in my mind. Put another way, I AM the folk music experience and drink is emphatically not part of it.

John

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 03:12 PM

There was a guy who used to come to the hoots, usually fairly late, after the taverns (pubs) closed. He was generally already pretty well lubricated when he got there. But as we were swapping songs and such, he would sit there in the middle of the floor and drink one beer after another—and fart! Generally before we adjourned, a couple of guys would have to pick him up and practically carry him to the bathroom before he up-chucked on the living room carpet.

Because of him, we had to start keeping the location of the hoots a secret.

I guess that made us "elitest."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 03:07 PM

Conrad, I wasn't aware of those events you mentioned. They look good fun. But with the largest attendance in the region of 125 they're hardly in the same league as folk festivals, which I (and I'm sure I'm not alone) think of as larger events attracting maybe thousands of people.

I'm sure it's perfectly possible to hold what is really no more than a large party with donated food and drink, and to get some musicians along to play. I'm sure everyone has a great time. However you cannot scale something like that up to a full-size festival and expect to run it on the same basis.

To take a single example, do you have public liability insurance in case someone falls into your Guy Fawkes bonfire? Did you manage to find an insurance company to donate that?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 03:01 PM

Conrad.
I donany't think anyone has actually asked this question.
So, I will.
Do ymou sing?
Do you play a musical instrument?
How many paid gigs have you done in the past year?
Thought so....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: PoppaGator
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 02:48 PM

I thought this discussion was going to about ALAN Freed...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Tootler
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 02:40 PM

Conrad, my question about your liver was not entirely flippant. Drinking the amount you claim to do puts your liver in serious danger of damage. However, that's your choice.

My brother-in-law died of liver failure at the untimely age of 47 as a consequence of excess alcohol. Prior to that he gave my sister and her daughter a miserable time. Excess drinking is a serious problem and we have too much of it here in the UK.

Moderate drinking: fine, but beware.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 02:34 PM

I'm afraid I've read Conrad's post of 01:39 at least half a dozen times and I'm no nearer understanding what he's trying to say. However I think he's saying that the reason he drinks 9 pints a night isn't because he's a piss-artist, it's because it's somehow "traditional" and it's therefore his duty.

It's not your eating and drinking that I disagree with. I can't imagine it's doing you much good, but I'm not your doctor, it's none of my business. I do disagree with your idea that people's appreciation of folk music is governed by how much the venue charges for beer.

People will go to listen to good music even in expensive venues. They won't go to cheap venues just to listen to crap music. It's the music that counts. I really don't believe that anyone who's not actually living on the streets is so hard up that the are put off attending a folk event by the price of the beer.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 02:27 PM

"If food and drink dont matter why are musical events held in bars in the first place"

Once again, O-ye-who-is-so-slow-to-grasp-simple-concepts, not all musical events are held in bars. Some are. Many, many are not.

And you do not need a big folk festival with hundreds of singers and thousands of audience members to have a "folk experience." In fact, that's not a "folk experience" at all!

There is no law that prevents YOU from calling some singers and musicians you know (provided you haven't alienated them all) and inviting them to your home for an evening of relaxed and informal singing in your living room.

Now, a good host will usually provide a supply of beer and/or wine (doesn't have to be high-priced vintage stuff, screw-top will do as long as it's halfway palatable). But I suppose that's out for you. If you don't want to shuck out a few bucks for a beer or two for yourself, I doubt you are willing to provide beverages and comestibles for others, heaven forbid! But you could always declare it BYOB. Most of the hoots I've been to were on that basis. After all, the host or hostess was already contributing the use of their house.

Around here, during the late Fifties and though the late Sixties there was a hoot somewhere almost every weekend, although many singers such as Bob and Judy and Alice and Patti and Mike and Jon and Nancy, et al were usually singing someplace, such as in a coffeehouse—and getting paid for it. But that didn't mean that the quality of the singing at the hoots wasn't excellent.

Early on, I learned many songs and was able to hone my performance skills at hoots. In fact, it was at a hoot that Jim Gilkeson, who was responsible for putting together music programs for KCTS-TV (educational channel), heard me sing, then asked me to do the "Ballads and Books" television series in 1959.

Bob Nelson held a big hoot in his back yard a couple of weeks ago. It ran all day long and into the evening. Pot luck barbeque. Great singing! Stewart holds a song fest at his house regularly every couple of weeks. Informal, no admission charge.

Conrad, for a "visionary artist," you are certainly lacking in vision. If you want to enjoy a "folk experience" and hear a lot of music, you don't need to rearrange the entire universe. The one that exists works just fine, thank you, and has been for decades now. All you need to do is shove a sock in your mouth to keep you from alienating the musicians around you by criticizing them, insulting them, calling them "elitist" because some of them earn a buck or two with their singing, and telling everybody they're doing it all wrong. Shut up, sit back, listen, and enjoy.

It's as simple as that.

Don Firth

P. S. "The concept of american puritanical minimal or no drinking is very recent development and has nothing to do with proper folk practice.

"Having only minimal drink is a halmark of the american Yuppie elitist."

That sounds to me like the feeble excuse of someone who is having a bit of an alcohol problem.

"Proper folk practice?" REALLY!! And who made you Lord God of what constitutes "proper folk practice?"

(Pompous ass!!!)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 01:39 PM

Yes I am aware of the Mary England concept and the oft exaggeration of peasant ways.

I have also studied the folk music of the NE england specifically Newcastle upon Tyne in great depth.

Yes folk music exaggerates however, the topic has been well discussed and the consensus is that the level of moderation upheld in 17th and 19th century Newcastle was significantly higher than it is in most american urban centers today. There is much historical news reporting of the various huge street celebrations from local papers as well as personal accounts.

On the more formal social side from England see-

Excess and the Mean in Early Modern English Literature
Joshua Scodel
Princeton 2002

This is a great source.

The concept of american puritanical minimal or no drinking is very recent development and has nothing to do with proper folk practice.

Having only minimal drink is a halmark of the american Yuppie elitist.

Remember, if they are not spending an excessive amount of money the world is not right. So we all suffer as prices rise to their ability to pay not ours.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 01:31 PM

Again....for those who keep forgetting

I run several events each year.

Guy Fawkes Day November 5 (this year on the 6th) great music, bonfire, fireworks, beer, food. Extremely well researched and traditional. We generally have 125 folks and growing (this year once again a free keg of craft nut brown ale was donated by a major micro brewery!)

Wassail- growing now about 5th year. Music, food, meat pies, wassail in several forms and smoking bishop, plum cakes. Again well researched very authentic. This year we will get out our new horse skull mari lwyd
and our bull skull christmas bull and do the related rituals. Last time we had about 30 and growing.

May Morning- We started this about 3 years ago always on the 1st of may. We have green man, green bike, jack in the green, traditional flowers, food and drink we had around ten but this is new.

All of these are free and open to the public. Always lots of donated music food and drink. Stop in all welcome.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 12:33 PM

"I complain, therefore I am."

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 10:25 AM

The reason no one wants to make the change is that they're happy with things as they are. No one else, apart from you, believes there is a problem. It's pointless you demanding that they change things - they don't see a need to.

Since you do see a need, the answer is simple - organise your own folk event in one of these cheap bars. If your theory is right, and you've spotted a gap in the market, then you'll attract an audience. Competition - that's the American Way. However cheap beer and food are not enough on their own, you also have to put on good-quality music.

This has been suggested to you repeatedly throughout this thread, and you've pointedly refused to address it. So let me ask you a direct question: if you're unhappy with the way things are run, why don't YOU do something about it?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 08:13 AM

If food and drink dont matter why are musical events held in bars in the first place

It is a total experience.

The reason the community is middle class is because only they can afford to attend.

If the community is to grow it needs to have as few barriers as possible. If I can find a barrier it has to be removed. Easy to see that the cost of food and drink are barriers. In my area music is found in only expensive places. There are perfectly good cheap places so why not make the change to places that are most affordable?

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Surreysinger
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 06:39 AM

"Simple....cheap eats and drinks then maximum audience. What can't you see as truth in that."

I know it's been said by others in various formats, but I just find that comment so mind bogglingly back to front. When I choose to go to events it's because the music attracts me ... food and booze usually have nothing whatsoever to do with it. And I'm pretty damned sure that I'm not alone in that. The catering facilities are usually something I put up with, no matter what their quality. There's one venue locally that usually has no food available after 5pm, and a limited bar service (which I don't usually use) ... but the concerts feature first class musicians. The lack of catering facilities doesn't put me off.

"I just wish you could sit down with the rustics who preserved the music several hundred years ago. You would probably have to leave immediately."

And they would probably have been singing during their work (no food or drink involved), at home, or indeed in the pub. But I don't think that they would have been so centred on the necessity of food and drink to make it an enjoyable experience.

Can we get back to discussing music?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 05:02 AM

And I thought WAV was obtuse....Obviously he's a lightweight in comparison.
Have to hand it to you Yanks...You do everything bigger and better...That includes Numbskulls!
So glad he lives over there!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 03:39 AM

Conrad, are you totally incapable of understanding that what attracts people to a music event is the quality of the music? Beer and food are secondary considerations. Certainly it's important that the venue serves good quality beer, but the price of it is not generally an issue - if people find it too expensive they buy less of it. I've never come across anyone, apart from you, who would refuse to attend an event because of the price of the beer.

As for being elitist, folk music is one of the least elitist activities I know. Whilst it may be true that the majority of folkies today are middle-class and well-educated, there are no barriers and I know people in the folk world who come from all backgrounds.

It is also one of the cheapest forms of entertainment, the price of beer notwithstanding - many events are free, and you can buy a ticket to a weekend festival for less than it costs to attend a 90-minute football (ie soccer) match - as hundreds of thousands of working-class people can afford go to football every weekend, paying far more than they would at the most expensive folk venue, it is clearly not cost which is keeping them away from folk events. The only person who finds it an obstacle is you, and that's because you insist on consuming large quantities of food and beer.

It's also true that the folk world can sometimes appear a bit cliquey. However that's unintentional, and simply arises because it's a small community where a lot of people have known one another for years, and one where amateurs can mingle freely and play alongside internationally recognised performers. If you feel excluded, it's either because you haven't made the effort, or more likely the local folk community doesn't want a self-opinionated boozer who when he's not stuffing his face is constantly whingeing about the way they run things but is too lazy to do anything about it.

As it happens, I have been privileged to sit alongside some of the "rustics" who preserved the music well into the 20th Century - people like Fred Jordan, Walter Pardon, Bob Roberts and Oscar Woods, for example. Not only were they wonderful performers, they were unfailingly courteous and welcoming to anyone who appreciated their music.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Melissa
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 03:00 AM

Don't worry about hedges, Spaw.
Now that I've found out how much money there is to be made at those things, I'm working on getting set up as a Hedge Vendor so I can spend time at the pool and sneer at Ordinary People.

Gosh, that's going to be great!
I'm sure looking forward to getting my costume together and hitting the circuit..and getting rich.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 01:53 AM

OHMYGAWD!!!!!! Don did you see how those ripoff artists at the press room are serving overpriced crap? I tell ya' the day I pay NINE bucks for a Black and Bleu Burger with some fries will be..............let's see here..............I think it was Tuesday before last............Anyway, they don't get it. Even if all the other crap is free there is no mention of free food or any hedges to shit in!!!


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 12:51 AM

Here's PROOF, Conrad.

CLICKY.

Note the last line in curmudgeon's post. "FREE."

So! Stop whimpering and GET BUSY!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 12:21 AM

"If you dont understand the folk lifeway then go into rock and roll."

The "folk lifeway" and the "folk experience" that you refer to is nothing more than some vague "noble savage" bit of fantasy about which you have nothing more than a foggy, ill-defined concept, Conrad. And if you have a degree in Anthropology, you must have got it out of a box of Crackerjack. If you DID know anything about Anthropology, you wouldn't keep making the dumb statements you keep making.

You've already been told, again and again, that there are folk festivals all over the country that are free of charge to the public and for which the singers donate their time and talent. And yet, you continue to whine and complain as if this were not the case at all.

Well, if it isn't true in the area where you live, Conrad, that's not OUR fault. And you've already been told, many times by many knowledgeable people here, what to do about it. One more time:

Get up off your lazy ass and organize one. Like WE did!!

But you won't get very far if you aren't a whole lot more polite and diplomatic. In this forum, you have been rude and insulting to, and contemptuous of, the very people who have done, and are continuing to do, more to preserve and promote an appreciation of folk music than you will ever understand. And whom, IF you are REALLY SERIOUS, you are going to NEED in order to bring such festivals about.

"We are different."

You're darned right we're different, Conrad. And thank God for that!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 10:54 PM

There should be medals for insults of that calibre.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 10:25 PM

Conrad, it's obvious from your tantrums that you haven't paid attention to ANYTHING anyone has said. Maybe it's because your beer-sodden brain is incapable of grasping simple, plain English.

I'll match what I've done over the years to "expand" folk music to any FORTY people like you.

You think I haven't heard the kind of crap you're peddling before? There's always some know-nothing ding-a-ling out there who doesn't have a clue who is hell-bent on trying to tell people who've been promoting and performing folk music all their lives, trying to tell them that they're doing it all wrong.

Nobody's "killing the messenger." The "messenger" in this case has no message of any value to deliver.

Let's face it, Conrad. You are a whining free-loader. And a waste of lard!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 10:16 PM

I suppose one builds up an immunity.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 10:11 PM

Not as strong as Conrad's armpits but then again..........

Spaw