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The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: TheSnail Date: 16 Oct 10 - 06:54 AM I've never been to Hastings Bonfire although I'm told it's very good but this is Lewes last year. The last procession after the public have gone home and everything has quietened down a bit. Cliffe Bonfire Society Last Procession, Lewes Bonfire Night 2009 Not a turkey in sight. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 16 Oct 10 - 05:09 AM Now that's rude to suggest that Conrad is a Turkey .... you go and apologize right now, if you can find him .... |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: GUEST,Ralphie Date: 16 Oct 10 - 03:59 AM Good Grief....Is this still going??? What sin did Turkeys commit to get themselves involved? |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 15 Oct 10 - 11:57 PM I thought I heard that as "Don't shit on the barbecue". My ears ain't what you used to be. They used to be my .... |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 15 Oct 10 - 11:06 PM And quite possibly a National Treasure. Conrad, there's the old adage, "If you can't stand the heat, don't sit on the barbeque." Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 15 Oct 10 - 10:35 PM Don, I think he might be complaining about Spaw. But Spaw is a 'Mudcat Tradition' .... :-) |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 15 Oct 10 - 10:23 PM Conrad, when large numbers of people (who are experienced with a particular field of endeavor) read your ideas about they are doing it all wrong and telling them how they should be doing it AND having them tell you that your ideas are neither necessary not desirable does not constitute "personal attacks." Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 15 Oct 10 - 08:44 PM Too many personal attacks not fattening them up any more. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Tootler Date: 15 Oct 10 - 06:36 PM Christmas is coming, The goose is getting fat Please put a penny in the old man's hat If you haven't got a penny, a ha'penny will do If you haven't got a ha'penny, God bless you. Traditional English (At least I remember chanting it as a kid) Note which bird is being fattened up for Christmas. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 15 Oct 10 - 06:22 PM "posts by so many others like Don and Howard and the Fool which have been wonderful to read." Bloody Hell, I've made the Clan! Better go out and jump off a cliff before I stuff things up, then.... |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: catspaw49 Date: 15 Oct 10 - 05:45 PM Conrad should be proud to have introduced a tradition here at Mudcat where he drops by starts wacko threads trying ti sell his lunatic ideas. I have no idea what will come next but sadly, another will come. And Cornhole old Bean, you should also realize that the best of this thread are the posts by so many others like Don and Howard and the Fool which have been wonderful to read. The worst of this thread is you and your dipshit ideas which rate a new definition of "stupid" in the dictionary AND my posts which are also a waste of space but so enjoyable to write! If you take away mine and yours, this is actually an excellent thread. Alas, that's the way it goes. Do write if you encounter a brother or sister of yours to introduce here as I'm curious if your parents had any children who lived. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 15 Oct 10 - 04:57 PM "Too bad management here is a tad loose. Too much freedom makes things useless." Not at all! I think the word is: "freely enjoy whatever you want to do, but please don't seek to impose your particular ideology on others and restrict what they do." You desire to impose restrictions on others based on certain arguments about 'tradition' which others have argued are false, likewise you have argued that some thing that you choose to do are in fact representative of 'tradition;, which others have also argued is false. The best thing you can do Conrad, is get on with having some crazy fun because you enjoy doing it and stop telling other people that they should do the same stuff that you do because it's "traditional". |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 15 Oct 10 - 04:42 PM Prevailed? I don't think so! But if that makes you feel better, be my guest. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 15 Oct 10 - 04:35 PM This thread has been BP ed muck pumped in from both ends to kill it. Too bad management here is a tad loose. Too much freedom makes things useless. Another indication that the competition has cut and run. Glad to have prevailed. Conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 15 Oct 10 - 01:55 PM Legend has it that Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Adams, and Thomas Paine got together one afternoon in a Boston coffeehouse and decided to make the turkey the national bird. The native American wild turkey was a very intelligent bird, and could often outwit hunters and predatory animals, thus it was a highly admirable bird and would make a worthy national symbol. A Thanksgiving celebration was planned and the decision was made to have stuffed and roasted bald eagle as the main dish and centerpiece of the celebration. But the cook was a lousy ornithologist and cooked the wrong bird. Embarrassing! So there was an agonized reappraisal, and the bald eagle was declared the national bird. At least according to Stan Freeberg. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 15 Oct 10 - 08:54 AM "In the rural colliery villages of North Durham (Craghead, Marley Hill, Dipton, Quaking Houses, Chopwell, High Spen etc.) turkeys were eaten at Guy Fawkes" Ah yes, such quaint English Rural Customs, an old Traditional song of Sid's comes to mind .... Joe, he was a young cordwangler, Munging greebles he did go, And he loved a bogler's daughter By the name of Chiswick Flo. Vain she was and like a grusset Though her gander parts were fine, But she sneered at his cordwangle As it hung upon the line. So he stole a woggler's mooly For to make a wedding ring, But the Bow Street Runners caught him And the judge said "He will swing." Oh, they hung him by the postern, Nailed his mooly to the fence For to warn all young cordwanglers That it was a grave offence. There's a moral to this story, Though your cordwangle be poor, Keep your hands off other's moolies, For it is against the law. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 15 Oct 10 - 08:49 AM "Nothing trad for guy fawkes could be cooked in an earth oven successfully." You learn something new every day! Not necessarily based on fact, however ... There are many 'trad foods' that work well in an earth oven .... especially 'UK style trad foods' Turkey is a big American thing - but never caught on the the same degree in Australia (compared with our trad chicken, turkey is dry and tasteless, exceedingly relatively expensive, and too big to fit in our trad sized ovens anyway - it was only for conspicuous consumers anyway), or as I've been able to find out, the UK (we picked up most of our traditions from the UK, before the Yanks cheap recycled TV shows saturated here in the 1960s) - Dickens was just using hyperbole as Scrooge, wanting to now flout his wealth, rather than miser it, just wanted to buy the biggest, most expensive thing he could find. Exactly the same as Halloween - but the commercial interests now recycle the left over US Halloween junk here in Australia the next year... |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Date: 15 Oct 10 - 08:34 AM The turkey is a traditional food for British Celebrations however, not for guy fawkes. Nothing trad for guy fawkes could be cooked in an earth oven successfully. The Turkey is only vaguely traditional in terms of Xmas Cliche & related overspill, such as Boxing Day leftovers. Other times of the year it exists in reconstituted form (Golden Drummers etc.) but never for celebrations and rarely even on Sundays when if fowl is on the menu, it will invariably be chicken. In the rural colliery villages of North Durham (Craghead, Marley Hill, Dipton, Quaking Houses, Chopwell, High Spen etc.) turkeys were eaten at Guy Fawkes, but first they were stuffed alive into larger than life-size grotesque wattle effigies various known as wadgers or creel feggas which were then smeared over with heavy daub (a mixure of horsehair, mud and cow shit). These were then topped off with carved neep heeds (or snammy lanthorns) before being paraded through the streets and muddy lanes to general rough music which excited the entombed turkeys to a hysterical frenzy, thus bringing alive these spectral scultures which would, at last, be hurled into the fire and the turkeys effectively, roasted alive in the process. Any escaping bird would be pursued into the fields by boys with flaming torches and and hung from a tree by its legs by means of hemp cord and, in an echo of wassailing rites, summarily blasted with shotguns to loud cheers and the chanting of psalms. A recent revival (1994) was boycotted by animal rights protesters and eventually banned outright by the RSPCA, though, like badger baiting and other savage rural pastimes, it is suspected the wadger tradition still takes place in the more remote communities. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Surreysinger Date: 15 Oct 10 - 07:36 AM Howard said "Roast turkey and Christmas Pudding are "traditional" only at Christmas. " Obviously talking about UK tradition there, but even then ,as far as the pudding goes, that tradition only goes back as far as the nineteenth century. And "traditional" turkey at Christmas for the general populace probably only goes back to the twentieth century from all that I've read (notwithstanding Mr Dickens' references to the bird). (As far as I recall, in our family we didn't have turkey as a rule until I was in my early teens -it was too expensive), As far as our own Bonfire Night/Guy Fawkes Night celebrations went roast bird of any description didn't feature in any that we had. Bonfire in the garden,smoke everywhere, fireworks, and the occasional toffee apple and baked potato yes ... but 46 lb turkeys? Never featured in any tradition for the night that I ever heard of. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: catspaw49 Date: 15 Oct 10 - 06:26 AM There you go Howard.......Clouding the thread with actual facts. Although I will say that your post is just about right as Conrad can use it as a springboard to additional explanations of the new and improved traditions in Pissant World. Sometimes the longer posts elicit responses from him which are so disjointed and rambling that it becomes hard to tell where Fuckwit Conrad ends and Lunatic Pissant begins! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 15 Oct 10 - 05:23 AM Conrad, what puzzles me is that you are very critical of singer-songwriters for undermining real traditional music, but you are quite happy to cobble together made-up traditions for your own purposes. Can't you see that this is just the same? If your local laws require you to cook food on the bonfire, then sausages and baked potatoes are the traditional foods cooked this way. Roast turkey and Christmas Pudding are "traditional" only at Christmas. Bonfire Night was not a celebration of the safeguarding of parliamentary freedom and democracy (neither of which really existed at the time) but of the preservation of the Protestant monarchy against an attempt to restore Catholicism. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: catspaw49 Date: 15 Oct 10 - 12:54 AM I bet Conrad has some wonderful old tradition of playing plastic sporks! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 15 Oct 10 - 12:50 AM I can play the forks - a bit like the spoons ... My grandad taught me to play the knives too - you jam then into the crack under the top on the edge of the table and flick them .... |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Smokey. Date: 15 Oct 10 - 12:10 AM It's 'Fork Music' in parts of Yorkshire. I don't know about dialects though - weren't they from Skaro? |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 14 Oct 10 - 11:38 PM In what dialect? Some people pronounce it "Fook Music"... |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Smokey. Date: 14 Oct 10 - 11:28 PM First, we have to define 'Folking Music'.. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 14 Oct 10 - 11:22 PM I suppose Smokey will want to give his opinion on 'Folking Music' next... |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Smokey. Date: 14 Oct 10 - 11:08 PM You mean her 'pudding passage'? |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 14 Oct 10 - 11:01 PM "Our tradition for about 24 years." When I was in the SCA there was a saying about doing it once it was fun, doing it twice was coincidence, doing it 3 times became a tradition.... |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: catspaw49 Date: 14 Oct 10 - 10:46 PM Ya' know............There I was......Happy as the proverbial clam, make that a 45 pound clam, because I had successfully captured #1100 and it seemed to have finally killed this thread which has long been heavily laden and sinking from the weight of Conradshit. But now I arrive back to find even more shit piling up!!! My gawd, it IS impressissive! Now that everyone but Conrad the Dumbass has been well educated in turkey lore, I suggest we all feast on these 45 pound birds which at that size I would figure to be tougher than a brickbat. If we can down a few of these things we will then need to have access to some really big fuckin' hedges to hold the massive amounts of shit produced. Conrad, you seem to be soliciting votes for your election to the glorious honor of being named "Dumbest Ass in Four Countries." Since you have no real conception of REAL traditions and seem hell bent on making your own, why not go on with the tough turkey eating and make it symbolic of you personally eating out Maggie Thatcher's ass. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 14 Oct 10 - 09:44 PM For some strange reason, this thread reminds me a lot of the one in which Wavy Davy insisted that if I wanted to be really true to American folk traditions, I should drop the English ballads, songs from the Southern Appalachians, fishing, lumbering and cowboy songs and such, and limit myself strictly to Native American chanting and drumming. Me, whose great-grandfather came over from Scotland and my mother's parents emigrated from Sweden. Yup! Native American chanting and drumming. Makes a lot of sense. . . . Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 14 Oct 10 - 09:18 PM "Conrad, your knowledge of British history is probably unparalleled.. " That is not necessarily a compliment... Auditions for The Fooles Troupe are Closed! :-P |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Smokey. Date: 14 Oct 10 - 09:11 PM Conrad, your knowledge of British history is probably unparalleled.. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 14 Oct 10 - 09:05 PM Chants = bonfire prayers - variants on remember, remember the fifth of november. see my publication the first comprehensive collection of these in print. Tootler way ahead of you. The first effigies were of the devil and the young pretender. Popes came later. The concept of effigy burning is founded in old testament and early british theology the idea is to send up a reminder to god that the evil deed was remembered and never intended to harm anyones soul. For a comprehensive history of celebration and the plot see my gunpowder plot web pages.....note especially the american version. No dont pretend it is period food but documentation is that it came before 1605 so fawkes and co could have dined on turkey.... Just finished the torches today. Absolutely traditional learned from Hastings Borough Bonfire. They will burn their bonfire this weekend and in it will be a good sized piece of american oak from my woodpile. We will receive on from theirs. conrad |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Smokey. Date: 14 Oct 10 - 08:58 PM "the unmolding of the pudding passage"? Sorry, but that sounds truely revolting.. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 14 Oct 10 - 08:55 PM Actually don I was quite clear The turkey is food but a necessity as that is how we can have a bonfire. The fire has to be put in a pit that is used for cooking. A code requirement. The turkey is a traditional food for British Celebrations however, not for guy fawkes. Nothing trad for guy fawkes could be cooked in an earth oven successfully. So it is an exception. The growth of tradition is acceptable. Our tradition for about 24 years. We do have all of the other recipes represented each year without exception. Even the Caribbean one. We still have one good turkey farm and that is the largest size. Of course the goose was important- however, Dickens showing the generosity of Schrooge at the end of the book has him send out for a turkey. Who knows why. In addition to the turkey we also cook and serve a huge christmas pudding. We do this because we can burn it and because after november 5 we look toward christmas. We always read the unmolding of the pudding passage from the christmas carol. Just our own additions. Just so the additions are not overwealming as they are with certain fusion musicians and singer songwiters then I think of it as comfortable accretion. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 14 Oct 10 - 08:35 PM You can serve Coca-cola at a medieval feast reenactment, it just isn't 'period', and should not be on open display. (ex-member SCA) So you can cook turkey at a Guy Fawkes night if you want to feed people - just don't pretend it is 'genuine period food'. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Tootler Date: 14 Oct 10 - 08:27 PM Sorry to interrupt this levity with something a little more serious. I have a bad habit of doing that. It seems the turkey has been in England longer than I thought. According to this site, the turkey was brought to England by merchants trading in the Eastern Mediterranean about 1530. The bird was called a turkey because its immediate source was the Ottoman Empire, though it was thought to have arrived there from N. America about 10 years earlier. Its popularity increased rapidly - probably because though it was about the same size as a goose, it had more meat on it. By the mid 1550s it was already being associated with Christmas, though it doesn't seem to have fully replaced the goose until the 20th century. However it has never been traditionally associated with Guy Fawkes. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Smokey. Date: 14 Oct 10 - 08:25 PM All-Britain champion turkey wrestler Euphemia Gristle (85) with last month's loser. Click |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Melissa Date: 14 Oct 10 - 08:25 PM not having beards would make it a lot easier to harness them up for field work..dang, I can't believe I didn't believe my great-grandpa. Those domestic draft birds look like they could work a lot of ground if a fella could keep them from getting distracted. Is the other guy (in the pic) holding a long-stemmed mic? Don't tell me my great-aunt wasn't pulling my leg about turkey bands performing at community celebrations..I couldn't bear the guilt of knowing! |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 14 Oct 10 - 08:17 PM Look out!! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Smokey. Date: 14 Oct 10 - 08:16 PM Sorry Tootler, I was replying to turkeys with beards.. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Tootler Date: 14 Oct 10 - 08:15 PM Well yes, but I think the traditional things were what was needed here. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Smokey. Date: 14 Oct 10 - 08:06 PM Only the more traditionally inclined ones. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Tootler Date: 14 Oct 10 - 08:05 PM Conrad, Short lesson in English history: Guy Fawkes was one of a group of conspirators who plotted to blow up the Houses of Parliament when the King (James I) was formally opening parliament, thus killing the king and much of the English aristocracy. The plot was a failure as the conspirators were pretty incompetent and the authorities came to hear of the plot and caught Guy Fawkes with a large quantity of gunpowder in the crypt of the Houses of Parliament on Nov 5th, 1605. The bonfire and fireworks were originally in celebration of the foiling of the plot and it later became customary to burn an effigy, called "The Guy" on the bonfire though the original effigy was of the pope as the plot was aimed at killing the protestant king and replacing him with a catholic. Don Firth has correctly listed up the things we eat on Guy Fawkes night. You can get more info on the gunpowder plot, as it is known in Wikipedia which provides a pretty good summary of the main events. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Melissa Date: 14 Oct 10 - 08:02 PM Do domestic turkeys have beards? |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Smokey. Date: 14 Oct 10 - 07:58 PM It's true. |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Melissa Date: 14 Oct 10 - 07:54 PM You mean they're real?! My great-grandpa used to tell stories about his crackpot uncle that used draft turkeys when there was a horse shortage. I always thought he was pulling my leg and now it's too late to apologize. darn, now I feel terrible |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 14 Oct 10 - 07:44 PM No comment. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 14 Oct 10 - 07:39 PM Apparently they do happen from time to time, Melissa. But when one does, they sometimes make the news. They're roughly the size of a small Tyrannosaurus Rex. When tractor-trailer driver Jim Caldwell headed down Highway 107 through Washington County, TN Tuesday, he got the surprise of a lifetime.Don Firth |
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