 sj |
||
|
||
The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
|
|
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 02 Oct 10 - 06:14 AM Actually, Conrad, most people can afford it - the festival was a sell-out. For those who couldn't, or wouldn't pay, there were plenty of free sessions in pubs around the town, facilitated by the existence of the festival. You still haven't explained how such a festival could be put on for free. Except of course, you don't want festivals like this to exist - you want small festivals which would of necessity be limited to local performers, because why would dozens of musicians travel hundreds of miles at their own expense to work very hard for no recompense? What I cannot understand, and which you have made no attempt to explain, is why you think that would be an improvement? |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 02 Oct 10 - 06:40 AM Festivals are run on the backs of volunteers why dont the volunteers run on the backs of the fat cat organizers and pro singers If some can volunteer what they have why dont they all volunteer what they have- only a few days a year. Just because an event is sold out does not mean that it was affordable to everyone I think it is wonderful that those in the industry do not agree. Exactly as expected. They just want to preserve the status quo and their market share. Your personal attacks are funny! Way off the mark but funny. Conrad |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: catspaw49 Date: 02 Oct 10 - 06:58 AM Festivals are run on the backs of volunteers why dont the volunteers run on the backs of the fat cat organizers and pro singers Please name names. Go ahead ..... Let's hear some details. If some can volunteer what they have why dont they all volunteer what they have- only a few days a year. Complete gibberish!!!! Just because an event is sold out does not mean that it was affordable to everyone LMAO.....Say WHAT??? I suppose it sold out thanks to it being unaffordable. Statements like that one keep most of us coming back strictly for the entertainment value! I think it is wonderful that those in the industry do not agree. Exactly as expected. They just want to preserve the status quo and their market share. More gibberish!!! Makes no sense whatsoever but it IS entertaining....... Your personal attacks are funny! Way off the mark but funny. Yeah they are funny but you seem to be protesting more and more that I/we are wrong so I think we are probably very close to the mark. Spaw |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 02 Oct 10 - 07:50 AM You can perhaps find enough wealthy people to sell out a concert but what about those who are not wealthy- you just shut them out with high prices- we need free festivals most of them not just some. Conrad |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 02 Oct 10 - 08:04 AM So who are the "fat cat organisers"? Most professionals in the folk world are struggling to make even a basic living. But supposing someone is getting rich from running folk festivals, why should that matter? If they're successful, it's because they provide the audiences with what they want - that's called a win-win situation. If someone is providing something I want at a price I find agreeable, why should I care how much he's making from it? If I don't like the product or the price, I don't have to buy it. If you don't like big concert festivals and think they're too expensive, you don't have to go, but why stop people who do like them and are prepared to pay for them? You seem to be very concerned about what you see as exploitation of volunteers. But the volunteers don't see it that way, or they wouldn't be queuing up to offer their services. Most of them are in fact being "paid" in tickets, which they find perfectly acceptable. Who are you to tell them they shouldn't do this? In fact this is a clear example of why your theories are not only wrong but contradictory. I don't believe for a moment that cost is a genuine barrier, as there are many other venues where people can see the very best in folk music for much less, or even for free. However if they can't afford a weekend festival ticket, they could volunteer to be stewards and get in for free - but you would stop them doing that. |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Surreysinger Date: 02 Oct 10 - 09:58 AM >>>Festivals are run on the backs of volunteers why dont the volunteers run on the backs of the fat cat organizers and pro singers I think that Howard may have got in before I managed to post my original intended response ... but the volunteers at festivals in UK normally get "paid" with free tickets to the festival and quite often camping tickets in return for a few hours of work each day. If you are talking a week long festival, that isn't a small consideration - for Sidmouth, for example, you're talking of a face value of over £200 (as far as I can recall). True volunteers are quite often the organisers of the event, who may very well stand to lose money (quite a few festivals in the last few years have gone bust). >>If some can volunteer what they have why dont they all volunteer what they have- only a few days a year. A rather nonsensical statement. Quite a few paid musicians effectively do volunteer by working for minimal fees. I get paid for gigs occasionally ... a sort of semi-, semi- pro in my estimation. My musical partner and I undertook one this year for what was effectively short of the overall price of two nights' B&B - no consideration of travel costs, or an effective fee for the performance. The reason for going, apart from the opportunity to perform (and on this occasion, I think you could say that what we achieved was both entertainment -I hope- and education, since we were using the fruits of some of my research) was to meet up with fellow musicians and enthusiasts and have an enjoyable weekend of traditional music. >> I think it is wonderful that those in the industry do not agree. Exactly as expected. They just want to preserve the status quo and their market share. Point one - many of those responding to this thread are professional or semi-professional musicians and performers who have been irritated by your unintelligent statements... but a very great many are not. As to "preserving status quo" ... there is no such thing as status in the folk world in my humble experience. It's a foreign concept ... now if you were talking pop or rock, I could understand it ... but you ain't! Sorry Conrad, but you are still way off beam. (And still not answering most of the questions which people have put to you, I see) |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 02 Oct 10 - 10:17 AM So howard- providing people with what they want is good always? Like drugs maybe. I think not. The It works for me agrument. So it may work now but what effect is it having on the brain of folk music that is the oral tradition? Is it reaching poor people. It is not. The huge folk festivals would not be happening if people did not profit. If you can not see it the fact is just hidden. They may loose on a bad weather year but they make up for it soon enough. That money for overpriced music must go somewhere. All the while people with naught cant get in. Even worse "volunteer" as slaves of the fat cat so you can get in. Lovely. Sort of like the expresion above of hey if you cant pay for a beer get a better job. All the while almost everyone involved in the festival generally gets paid. Either pay them all or ask that they all volunteer. That is what people who loved the music and wanted it to expand would do. Again "quite often" is not all the time or even most of the time. Look up status quo Folk music pro world is not doing folk they are simply mimicking rock just another commercial brick in the wall keeping the people from their own music. Conrad |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: catspaw49 Date: 02 Oct 10 - 10:17 AM WE NEED NAMESYou ramble on and on but who are these "jetset pros" and "unscrupulous organizers" or "rich folkies".................Come on dickless......some names needed........Or how about just admitting you don't know jackshit?Spaw |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Tootler Date: 02 Oct 10 - 10:53 AM You can perhaps find enough wealthy people to sell out a concert but what about those who are not wealthy- you just shut them out with high prices- we need free festivals most of them not just some. Conrad, why won't you be told? It's not as if anyone is trying to fool you or pull the wool over your eyes. It's not only professionals who are trying to get you to see you are wrong, but also amateurs like myself. If the costs were prohibitive or if we were denied the opportunities to take part in folk music as you claim, surely we would be supporting you, but we are not. Folk music concerts are not generally expensive. If you want expensive concerts try classical music or rock/pop concerts - and classical music concerts, in the UK at least, are often subsidised. Many, if not most, folk festivals in the UK are held around the town in which they are based so you can pick and choose. You can spend the whole week at Whitby folk festival and not pay for any of the events you attend. My interest is in the participative events so I go to sessions and singarounds (free) and to workshops for which there is a modest entrance fee. As for fat cat organisers, as far as I am aware, Whitby folk week is run by a group of enthusiasts and does not make a huge amount of money. In fact, I was told they made a loss in 2009. They are looking for sponsorship just now to help them with the costs as you can see if you look here Volunteer slaves? Bollocks!! Most people I know who volunteer to steward etc. at folk festivals do it because they enjoy it and as a thank you, they get in free. If they are stewarding a concert or workshop, they get to go into the event free. They can also get into events they are not stewarding at for nothing. In effect, volunteer stewards get paid in kind. If festivals were making huge profits, as you claim, in all probability they would pay their stewards. |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Howard Jones Date: 02 Oct 10 - 10:54 AM The "oral tradition" is all but dead. The "folk" gave it up of their own free will and turned to professional entertainment, the wireless, gramophone, TV etc. Just look at Jim Carroll's posts elsewhere about the decline of the travellers' singing traditions if you don't believe me. Where it does exist, it has nothing to do with the folk movement. We may look on as observers, but we are not part of it. Nothing we do on the "folk scene" has any bearing on the few pockets of tradition that remain. At most, we may take up a few performers and offer them a wider platform for their music, but that's bringing them into our world, not the other way around. People who learn and sing songs via the folk scene aren't continuing the tradition - that's just romantic fancy. It is simply not true that people are kept out of folk music by cost. For those who cannot afford a festival ticket, there is the option of volunteering - but you would stop that. However festivals aren't the only ways of discovering and enjoying folk music. I cannot believe that there is anyone who is not living in a cardboard box who cannot afford to go to one of the many free sessions and events, for the price of a beer or coffee which is all it costs to go into the bar. Perhaps Baltimore doesn't have any free sessions - if so, it is unusual. The solution, which has been pointed out to you many times, is to organise them yourself - after all, as you keep telling us, it's easy. |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 02 Oct 10 - 01:36 PM "So howard- providing people with what they want is good always? Like drugs maybe. I think not." But enough free "bier" for YOU can get barfing, falling down drunk is just fine, right? #### If an event is Sold Out, that means the venue is filled to capacity. Conrad, where are you going to put all those other people, the ones who want in, but can't afford the price of admission? When there are people who can afford it who can't get in because it's filled to capacity? Tell, me, Conrad. Where are you going to put all these people? There ARE FREE festivals!! All over the place! Too bad you seem to live in a backward, depressed area. ". . . fat cat organizers and pro singers. . . ." Along with the unicorn, the wyvern, the hippocamelocerous, and other mythical beasts. A volunteer is someone who offers his or her services for some endeavor. They are not slaves. No one is holding a gun to their heads and forcing them to do what they do. If they feel they are being "exploited," they can always unvolunteer. When I was small, my mother would sometimes say to me, "Don't use a word if you don't understand what it means." Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 02 Oct 10 - 01:40 PM "You can perhaps find enough wealthy people to sell out a concert. . . ." Not unless the performer or performers are good enough so that people will want to pay to hear them. Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Ruth Archer Date: 02 Oct 10 - 02:14 PM "The huge folk festivals would not be happening if people did not profit. If you can not see it the fact is just hidden." The majority of UK folk festivals, even the big ones, are run as not-for-profit organisations. After all the expenses are paid, whatever is left over (if there is anything) is ploughed back into the following year's festival. Many festival directors don't draw any kind of salary; some festivals pay some staff a part time wage. I can only think of one person working for a UK folk festival as a director who draws a full time wage, and he is actually paid by the local council. Yet many people work 30, 40, 50 hours a week on their festivals, as a "leisure" activity, outside of their actual jobs. The festivals continue to happen because people are passionate about folk and passionate about the festivals, not because they are getting rich. There is nothing "hidden" here - an organisation's legal status as a not-for-profit means that it has to be run this way. So you are, once again, talking rubbish, Conrad. |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 02 Oct 10 - 04:57 PM In all probability they would pay their stewards. No For several years I worked for a major festival running a stage as a volunteer. The person heading the production company made a grand profit. He always pointed out the festival was founded upon volunteerism. Tell ya what. Why not give volunteers a share of the profit and allow them to donate it back. Brainwashed folkie volunteers. Yes you are important for crafters, food sellers, production companines and pro musicians making money. The folk industry is just that. Hey why dont you go down to Mcdonalds and thell them you will volunteer -same thing. If a festival opens its books I I see no profit and donation of volunteer hours by everyone involved fine. Find a large folk festival that will let you know what they make. The oral tradition is not a living thing to live or die it is a proces. It can happen now. Whats stopping it.- glad you asked- commercialism. Yes people saw a drug and they took it. Nothing but addiction. But when the free folk world comes to be it can return. Exactly don you dont expand the venue you keep people out with high prices so it doesnt get too full! Wonderful....keep it small don thats it...you could build a second venue a third or a fourth but no you raise prices and keep them out. Don - having money to burn is not tied to knowledge of music. I was in DC on H street NE at a german place. The music was absolute crap. Polish infact and poorly done. The place was filled with people with so much money that they could drink fast and hard through pints at $10.00 each. I see Don having money makes you smart. And those without stupid. And those that drink more than a beer or three are stupid and perverted.....So keep them out. Keep it small. Non profit means nothing it just means that the business entity cant make a profit not those they hire. I know of a local non profit that payed musicians several times over their usual rate just because they could. The non profits still have the food chain. Big festivals happen because they can get away with it and they make money for lots of people, beause they are not having to be concerned with the preservation of the music just the preservation of income. Conrad |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Surreysinger Date: 02 Oct 10 - 05:33 PM "crafters, food sellers, production companines and pro musicians making money. The folk industry is just that." Give me strength ... Conrad, how many times does everyone on this thread have to tell you that the folk "industry" - whatever that may be - does not actually make money. Festivals here almost invariably do not make profits, folk club organisers and promoters generally do not either unless they're extremely lucky (I can't think of one that does - but I do know quite a few who plough their own money into the clubs to keep them going, and expecting no return from it except for the pleasure of being to get the music out there). There are very very few pro musicians in the UK who can make a living out of the work that they get. Most have one or more day jobs to allow them to obtain the basics of life; those that do subsist entirely on their earnings from folk have to work themselves to the bone in order to do so; others live perilously close to the edge - no assets, no pension scheme to speak of, resulting in calamity if anything in their life such as health gives way. It is not a society of fat cats living off the backs of others - as virtually everyone on this thread has told you, some politely, others more forcibly. |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 02 Oct 10 - 05:57 PM ". . . those that drink more than a beer or three are stupid and perverted. . . ." Anyone who drinks as much as you apparently do IS stupid. And I say that, not because I'm some sort of temperance freak. I enjoy a few beers now and then. In fact, my old friend Bob Nelson was here this afternoon, and we swapped some songs and had a couple of beers together. But we didn't get positively stinkin' as you seem to do on a regular basis. Like I keep saying, Conrad, it's obvious to everyone here that you have a drinking problem, which, equally obviously, is impairing any chance of clear and rational thought on your part. ". . . keep them out." Damn straight!! Anyone who shouts out requests to a singer when he or she is in the middle of a song, or who, unbidden, pulls out a tin whistle and tries to play along—another tune in another key—should be either blocked from getting in or dragged to the door and kicked out. Because they obviously have no acquaintance with civilized behavior and are ruining the whole "folk experience" for everyone else. It's plain to all why you are so bent out of shape about the folk scene in the Baltimore area, and are projecting that to the rest of the world. Through your own behavior, you have made yourself persona non grata in your local folk venues and are just generally pissed off at everyone—except the real cause of your troubles. YOU! Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 02 Oct 10 - 06:19 PM Yes some people dont make money but lots of people do. No one should. Don what does it have to do with anything. Again I have never been tossed out of anywhere, my driving record is clean and I never play when anyone else is playing unless at an informal session. I dont think you can generalize from one report either. The point is that there is a generally enforced teatotaling atmosphere enforced these days or strict moderation when it was never the case in the past. Still does not excuse high beer prices just to weed out the crowd via economic discriminaiton. Folk musicians should try to hold their sessions in inexpensive places not the most expensive. Dont think there is anything wrong with that suggestion. I worked almost every weekend teaching in a very well known music venue in Baltimore without incident or any complaint from the management- they appreciated my appearance each week bringing new students and new people to the scene. Conrad |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 02 Oct 10 - 06:26 PM "The point is that there is a generally enforced teatotaling atmosphere enforced these days or strict moderation when it was never the case in the past. "Still does not excuse high beer prices just to weed out the crowd via economic discriminaiton." Okay, there it is. Out of his own mouth, he just said it! Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Will Fly Date: 02 Oct 10 - 06:55 PM there is a generally enforced teatotaling atmosphere enforced these days or strict moderation when it was never the case in the past. Conrad, I think you must live on another planet. Who's enforcing a 'teatotaling" atmosphere? I've never seen such a thing - ever. Still does not excuse high beer prices just to weed out the crowd via economic discriminaiton. If you seriously think that bars and pubs charge high prices just to 'weed out the crowd' - or that folk musicians hold sessions in expensive pubs just to 'weed out the crowd' - then you're a nincompoop. Pubs charge what they can to make a living - either a small living or a good one, depending on their attitude. Folk musicians should try to hold their sessions in inexpensive places not the most expensive. Dont think there is anything wrong with that suggestion. Well, that suggestion just demonstrates more of your stupidity. Folk musicians generally hold their sessions in places that will have them - and many places don't want that kind of music - so the restrictions that come into play are not based on beer prices but simply on what might be available. The cheapest places in town just may not want folk sessions - it's as simple as that. I have never yet, in all my playing years, heard of anyone being put off going to a pub to listen to or participate in a music session because the beer was either cheap or expensive. Apart from you, that is... What really arouses my curiosity are your initial arguments in this thread: (a) that folk music is vital to everyone's 'lifeway' (b) that economic circumstances are preventing that vital music from getting to poor people. You haven't produced one shred of evidence to support these points. You've banged on about folk professionals lolling by hotel pools and driving prices up - also preventing this 'vital' music from getting to poor people - but you haven't given us one concrete example of such a traditional folk musician. And you have consistently refused to give us a single example of this 'vital' music that is being prevented from being heard by poor people - not one example. Is it any wonder that you're not taken seriously. You can post what the devil you like on Mudcat - it's that sort of forum - but, if you simply repeat a theory or an argument without any evidence to support it, or refuse to quote any references or articles or examples to give real credence to your theory, or simply refuse to answer simple questions put to you, then you look and sound stupid. It's quite clear from your numerous posts in this thread that any musician who strives to be good at what he or she does, or any instrument maker who tries hard to create good instruments - or anyone who doesn't fit your crackpot theories - is dubbed 'elitist'. But to keep calling these people elitist is simply demonstrating your bad attack of sour grapes. The facts for you to face, Conrad, are that no-one is prevented from accessing folk music through economic circumstance, and that folk music - and we don't know what you mean by that term - is the hobby of a minority. And folk music is no more vital to the 'lifeway' of many people than any other form of music. |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Jack Campin Date: 02 Oct 10 - 07:00 PM others live perilously close to the edge - no assets, no pension scheme to speak of, resulting in calamity if anything in their life such as health gives way. Like Anne Feeney: article from an Oregon paper Fat cat. Yeah, right. |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 02 Oct 10 - 07:29 PM Hundreds of vendors are not at festival for recreation they are their for profit as are the organizers. Ok try the free festival concept-everything is donated everyone volunteers goods if sold are for cost. Then see how many organizers stick around or vendors either. They only love the money of the folk not the music. Many go from festival to festival regardless of music, same with promotors one day folk the other rock. No great love for the music. Conrad |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Jack Campin Date: 02 Oct 10 - 07:57 PM Here's how the widower of one of those fat-cat festival organizers is living high on the hog from his wife's ill-gotten gains: Iain Miles (Googling for "Citty Finlayson" will tell you who she was - one of the most effective and most loved organizers of traditional music events in the UK). |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 02 Oct 10 - 08:10 PM "Non profit means nothing it just means that the business entity cant make a profit not those they hire" Ah been bugged by this sort of ignorant loony before in the SCA - also a non-profit volunteer organization for Recreation of the fun (not the smells and poor health) of The Medieval period of History. Non profit means that those financial members who 'own' the organization take no share in the profit - taxes are still payable - but any profit get put back into purchasing assets, maintaining any existing assets, and offsetting any losses at future event. Some clowns tried to insist that every event should run at a loss, if not breaking even to the exact cent. Not surprising just ho much money got wasted.... If you don't understand what a word means, keep your mouth shut before preaching. |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 02 Oct 10 - 08:17 PM And yeah you have your grandad and granny run the thing and they buy stuff from you and your friends.....come on..... Money need not....or get wasted.... Conrad |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 02 Oct 10 - 08:23 PM Conrad says he's a "visionary artist." It would appear to me that what he thinks are visions, most people would call "hallucinations" or "delusions." Drinking three pitchers at a sitting and doing so repeatedly will do that to a person. Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 02 Oct 10 - 08:58 PM Good friend of mine. Went to high school with her, knew her for most of her life. Talented, nice singing voice, played a little bit of guitar, for a time she had a job as a dancer in a night club. She wasn't interested in building a folk singing career for herself, but bless her heart, she was good at ferreting out singing jobs for other singers. She led me to a couple of very good, long-term singing jobs. She married a guy who, shortly after their marriage, got called back into the army and sent overseas. To Germany. Being an officer, he was able to take his wife, my old friend, with him. While he was doing whatever he was doing in the army (cold war, Berlin wall, things were a bit tense), she didn't really have much to occupy her time. She and other officers wives would get together at the officers club—and drink. Great beer in Germany! Several years of this. I don't know the whole story, but things didn't work out. She and her husband got a divorce, and she returned to Seattle. I was shocked when I saw her. She had been gone for about five years, but during that time, she had really aged. She looked like she was about twenty years older than she really was. And this svelte dancers' body had gone to hell. She looked as if she were pregnant. She wasn't, but as a result of all that boozing, her liver was four times normal size. She was hooked on booze. But she was a very intelligent woman. She knew she needed psychiatric help and she went to a clinic where she managed to kick the booze and got herself dried out. But she never did return to her former hale-and-hearty self. Some years later, she was found one morning in her apartment by a neighbor who wondered why she hadn't seen her for several days. She was dead. Autopsy showed liver disease with all kinds of complications, and from what some of her neighbors said, she was showing distinct signs of early onset senile dementia. Didn't run in her family. Beer—was her drink of choice. And she'd been downing about three pitchers-worth a day. How's your liver, Conrad? Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 02 Oct 10 - 09:13 PM The liver is fine. I dont drink three pitchers a day that is an hillucination but whilst in Munich working with germans every day it was expected that we consume around 4 liters each. We were doing grounds maintenance work,landscaping for the army. Liberation of the muse is a metabolic thing but it should be part of folk music in some of its forms. Conrad |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 02 Oct 10 - 09:49 PM ". . . every day it was expected that we consume around 4 liters each." You're HOOKED, Conrad! That explains a lot! "Liberation of the muse. . . ." Has nothing to do with metabolism. If you need "bier" to liberate your muse, Conrad, that demonstrates graphically that you are hooked. Your whole beef with the folk music thing is predicated on the cost of "bier." Case closed! (Well, not really. Conrad will just go out and see if he can promote another case – 24 bottles - open it, and dive in.) Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 02 Oct 10 - 09:51 PM By the way, Conrad, YOU said you drank three pitchers a day. Not MY hallucination. Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: frogprince Date: 02 Oct 10 - 09:58 PM The world has seen a lot of artists, and performers, whose own work looked much better to themselves after substantial quantities of alcohol. You were expected to consume four litres a day? What a lovely folky tradition to uphold. Other folks have had traditions of liberating their muses with LSD, cocaine, or heroin. But some of us capitalist pig elitists have been too stuck up to join in those traditions. |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 02 Oct 10 - 10:24 PM I recall back in 1964 while attending the Berkeley Folk Festival, winding up at a post-concert party with a small group of Berkeley folk singers whom I didn't really know all that well. About four songs into the session, the pot came out and a joint was being passed around the room. Not into that sort of thing, I passed. I noticed as the night wore on that people's singing and playing got sloppier and sloppier as still more joints made the rounds (you could almost get high on second hand smoke). Almost all of these people were aspiring to concert careers or singing across the bay at the Hungry i. But nobody was doing much of anything to bring it about. They kept telling each other things like, "Man, you've never played that well before! Cool!" And everyone else nodding in bleary-eyed agreement. When actually, they were playing wrong chords, stumbling over the words, and oftentimes singing off-pitch. Yet THEY were convinced that they were singing better than they ever had. That, I think, explained their lack of ambition, despite their desire for singing careers. A few tokes, and they had their own personal Carnegie Hall inside their own heads! Yeah, I can understand how someone can become a "visionary artist" after enough "bier." Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 02 Oct 10 - 11:47 PM Look Out - it's happening overseas too! Troubadour Central Coast Website: http://www.troubadour.org.au Company Overview: The Troubadour is a non profit organisation located in the great golden land of Australia on the beautiful NSW Central Coast, surrounded by mountains and the ocean. Please take some time to read about what's happening in our Central Coast music and poetry group on our website. Our group is committed to preserving the traditions of heritage music and poetry for generations to come. We encourage participation by everyone and provide a place for beginning and advanced artists to become involved. Monthly Concerts of Quality groups (Usually the fourth Saturday of each month unless noted on a different day) Blackboard Concerts and Sessions Performances around the area for members Jam Sessions Frequent Activities Group Camping Trips Community Participation The Troubadour is a non profit organisation located in the great golden land of Australia on the beautiful NSW Central Coast, surrounded by mountains and the ocean. Please take some time to read about what's happening in our Central Coast music and poetry group on our website. Our group is committed to preserving the traditions of heritage music and poetry for generations to come. We encourage participation by everyone and provide a place for beginning and advanced artists to become involved.... (read more) Mission: To promote music and musicians especially the traditional variety and to nurture beginners and upcoming artists Products: Spreading the love of Traditional and Acoustic Music |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 02 Oct 10 - 11:55 PM Why you would need to drink 4 Litres of Bier a day... A Peasant's Home QUOTE Welcome to the Residence! The county made me chop the vines down-this left a non aesthetic scene... so I added colorful cloth and neckties to create a Haitian like screen UNQUOTE Well there is certain charm.... |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 03 Oct 10 - 12:38 AM From an article on the psychology of fanaticism: "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." –Winston Churchill According to the article, Conrad, however, is not a true fanatic. "A fanatic differs from a crank in that the latter term is typically associated with a position or opinion which is so far from the norm as to appear ludicrous and/or provably wrong." FYI. Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 03 Oct 10 - 12:49 AM Don you have to learn of the european tradition of drinking and the role of drink in relation to music. Ben Johnsion. The symposia. Read and learn. Yes liberation of the muse most important if not essential. This is not true for all aspects of folk music- for example hymns and songs of occupation. But Don do you not know that there are many many drinking songs in praise of alcohol and none of them say just have one expensive beer and none say if you cant afford it get a job so you can pay too much! Metabolism- the fact that after one pitcher of beer my wife is asleep while I am saying wheres the rest of it. Makes a lot of difference. It is good to reach a state where quality of performance is disregarded in favor of perhaps passion. Quallity simply does not matter. Taking care of the songs matters. Don you just dont want change to happen even though there is nothing wrong with it. Perhaps you need to drink more to understand. Conrad |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: catspaw49 Date: 03 Oct 10 - 01:12 AM We've all heard your lunatic ramblings but so far you have not given even ONE concrete example. NAME NAMES..........C'mon Conrad......let's hear some real proof that what you say is right. Not just generalizations of your wacko shit, let's get down and dirty and tell us some names of these jetset pros and elite folkies........PUT UP OR SHUT UP! Spaw |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 03 Oct 10 - 01:41 AM "liberation of the muse most important if not essential. Metabolism- the fact that after one pitcher of beer my wife is asleep while I am saying wheres the rest of it." ... that explains the garden ... bet the county now regrets making him cut back the hedges .... |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 03 Oct 10 - 01:53 AM Actually, I've just found a A herd of buffalo can move only as fast as the slowest buffalo. When the herd is hunted, it is the slowest and weakest ones at the back that are killed first. This natural selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the general speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of the weakest members. In much the same way, the human brain can only operate as fast as the slowest brain cells. Excessive intake of alcohol, we all know, kills brain cells, but naturally it attacks the slowest and weakest brain cells first. In this way, regular consumption of beer eliminates the weaker brain cells, making the brain a faster and more efficient machine. That's why you always feel smarter after a few beers. |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Ralphie Date: 03 Oct 10 - 02:36 AM Good grief. Conrad has a wife? If I were her (God forbid!) I'd stay asleep as much as possible! |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Tim Leaning Date: 03 Oct 10 - 04:46 AM "I am a certified secondary teacher I know about teaching methods." Cant get much more professional than that eh? |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 03 Oct 10 - 08:38 AM Always good when the thread starts talking about me almost entirely. They haven't an argument to stand on! Conrad |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Surreysinger Date: 03 Oct 10 - 08:42 AM >>Don you have to learn of the european tradition of drinking and the role of drink in relation to music. Hmm ... wonder why the Bacchanalia were banned in Europe in the end? >>Yes liberation of the muse most important if not essential. You keep rolling this rather pompous phrase out - presumably with the implication that, without booze, the poor old muse is going to be caged in. Well, Conrad ... that's a load of utter tosh.Not to mention your repeated statements that "quality doesn't matter". I don't need alcohol in order to feel something or to perform something. Example - a couple of days ago I was in the middle of a rehearsal for a gig in two weeks' time,and working on one or two songs with my musical partner that we hadn't touched for some time. In order to put myself in "the right place" all it took was standing up, focusing my mind on what the song I was singing was about, and putting myself mentally in the position of the person in the song, whilst trusting to the accompanist to allow me to sing without the aid of a safety net (metaphorically speaking). The accompaniment was sympathetic, and a symbiotic part and parcel of the whole ...the cathartic result was a feeling of having been punched in the solar plexus at the end of the song and, without wishing to sound overly dramatic, a feeling of emotional exhaustion. Oh and during it, of course, I was having to attend to the physical requirements of singing the song, remembering the words, phrasing, as well as injecting emotion and sense. With all due respect (which of course means none), I couldn't have managed any of that with massive quantities of alcohol in my bloodstream. I might very well have FELT that I could, thanks to the dulling effects of the stuff, but I doubt that an observer would have had the same perception. >>This is not true for all aspects of folk music- for example hymns and songs of occupation. So the muse is only required for certain kinds of music? More twaddle. Passion and fervour are still required for songs of that type. >>It is good to reach a state where quality of performance is disregarded in favor of perhaps passion. I think we've all heard the fervent drunk bellowing out love songs (or others) in a fashion which is painful to anyone in the vicinity. For anyone other than the singer in question, it most certainly is NOT good for someone to have reached a state of that kind. >>Quallity simply does not matter. Taking care of the songs matters. And of course "taking care of the songs" means presenting them to the unitiated in a form which appeals to them - poor quality rubbish doesn't sell . >>Perhaps you need to drink more to understand. I'm still wondering whether this is a thread about music .. it really does seem more like a circular argument of self-justification on the food and booze front. |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 03 Oct 10 - 09:28 AM "Always good when the thread starts talking about me almost entirely." Well perhaps that's because the entire thread and the so-called 'radical paradigm' you propose, was actually all about *you* from the beginning. You are an unemployed heavy drinker who wants a free party. Nothing wrong in that, but it's got nothing genuinely to do with 'expanding' folk music to *other* people: 99 % of whom do not, and indeed would not wish to share your particular personal 'lifeway'. And that includes the bulk of amateur folk enthusiasts. The rest of the world isn't there to give you what you want. And I say that as someone who sympathises with people who choose alternative lifestyles. |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: GUEST,Ralphie Date: 03 Oct 10 - 10:14 AM I'm sitting here listening to some Richard Thompson sessions that I had the good fortune to record over the last ten years. More talent in one little finger than you have had in a lifetime. Please go away and get a life, Conrad. Your pontifications are pointless, and whats more ....Banal. Go and drink Bier.....You seem to do it quite well. We'll carry on making music. That's not something that you have any clue about.... |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Tootler Date: 03 Oct 10 - 10:27 AM Don you have to learn of the european tradition of drinking and the role of drink in relation to music. I am a European, British to be precise. I know well the tradition of drinking in relation to music and anything else, for that matter. It means that it is not safe to go into the centre of many of our cities on a Saturday night. It means well known musicians dieing an early death. (Jimi Hendrix, for example. Yes he was American, but he died here in Britain) It means that my brother-in-law died at the age of 47 from liver failure. It means that people in this country are seriously concerned about the epidemic of binge drinking we are suffering from at the moment. I could go on, but I won't except to say Stop giving us that pap about drink and the muse The truth is that you are at your best when you're sober. BTW, 4 litres is approx 7 pints imperial. Drinking that daily puts your liver at serious risk. |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: catspaw49 Date: 03 Oct 10 - 10:39 AM Still no names........... Spaw |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Tootler Date: 03 Oct 10 - 03:29 PM Just a thought. Has this been a wind up all along? |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: Don Firth Date: 03 Oct 10 - 03:43 PM Quite possibly, Tootler, quite possibly. But despite Conrad's stated beliefs and no matter what his motives may be, I'd say this thread has produced a fairly worthwhile exchange of information and ideas. #### Conrad, if you need beer to awaken your muse, you are a pretty sorry specimen indeed (You know what a "specimen" is? Go pee in a bottle!). My muse is quite alert without having to resort to that sort of artificial stimulus. You are just making feeble excuses to drink yourself into a stupor, in which case what you think of as your "muse" is nothing more than alcoholic vapors. I've posted this before. But it bears repeating, because it's an important, but little appreciated, bit of world history. In a fascinating book entitled Around the World in Six Glasses, author Tom Standage, explains how early farmers saved surplus grain by fermenting it into beer, the Greeks took grapes and made wine, and Arabs learned how to distill spirits. Water was often unsafe to drink because of the prevalence of water-born diseases, and not knowing that the cause was bacteria, which could be killed by boiling the water, most people tended to avoid water and drank beer or wine, in which the alcohol killed the germs.Now, this is not some sort of brief for "temperance" in the Carrie Nation model. As I have said, I thoroughly enjoy a beer or two on a hot summer afternoon or sitting around gabbing with friends, and I occasionally have a glass of wine with meals. An occasional mixed drink, yes. But this merely adds to the enjoyment of the occasion, it is not necessary for being able to enjoy the occasion! My muse is already fully awake, ALERT, and functioning. Conrad, if you need the booze to enjoy various aspects of life, including music, then whether you will admit it to yourself or not, YOU HAVE A PROBLEM. Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe Date: 03 Oct 10 - 04:32 PM Tonight, Matthew, I'm going to be... |
|
Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe Date: 03 Oct 10 - 04:33 PM Leadfingers! 1000 |
| Share Thread: |