The Concept of FREED Folkmusic

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 10:18 PM

Ha - you want to talk length? I once played a great bass shawm... 'kin huge bugger, it was..

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 10:11 PM

Actually, I've got some recorders too , but they don't last long on batteries - oh - I've got a couple of those acoustic ones too - including a longer one than you probably ... :-P

And I do apologise, I have played a borrowed crumhorn (I had to give it back!) and like it - no, I meanlike playing it, not like giving it back! - and it is not a fipple flute, it has a reed - which is why it makes such a delightful farty noise!

:-)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 10:00 PM

I've a gaggle of recorders, a brace of curtals and a tenor sordune somewhere in the spare bedroom waiting to burst forth too, when you've finished insulting the crumhorn :-)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 09:55 PM

OK - it posted - for a while there, was beginning to worry that the Mudcat had finally developed TASTE....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 09:54 PM

This keeps refusing to post ...

A crumhorn is basically a whistle that bred with the curved top handle of a walking stick....

Now a Serpent is more visually interesting ....

Educational Link...

Making your own Rackett :-)

which has to be better than many Amateur Efforts with a Guitar or Fiddle ... :-P

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 09:52 PM

Wife?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 09:44 PM

"Don - why on earth do you want to work for money when you could be starving like a proper artist?"

Yeah. Been there. Done that. It ain't all it's cracked up to be.

I wonder if Conrad has a job. I'll bet a cookie his wife supports him so he can spend all day combing through refuse dumps to find stuff to glue to cars.

And this just occurred to me. The vapors from the glue he uses!

Maybe that accounts for a lot!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 09:30 PM

Yeah, me thinks that Conrad is some 13 year old who has stumbled onto this joint and is getting his (or her) jollies from pullin' folks chains...

I asked him earlier if he expected the guy to that works on his car did it for free and an said that the guy did??? See what I mean??? After awhile none of what he says adds up to, ahhhh, adult discussion...

Hey, why not just everything be free, folks??? I mean, we could just do away with money... And people will never be sick and there will always be cold beer in the frige... Yeah, my kinda world... Where do I sign up???

B~

p.s. Oh yeah... Geetar strings would never break in such a world...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 09:23 PM

Cross posted.

A friend of mine and I were walking down the hall in the music building at the U. of W. one day, and we ran into this guy who was on his way to one of the rehearsal rooms to join some other people who were in there practicing some Early Music. He was carrying a weird, curved instrument of some kind. My friend stopped him and asked, "What kind of an instrument is that?"

The guy growled, "It's a crumhorn! And no smart remarks!"

Then he pushed open the door and vanished into the rehearsal room.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 09:14 PM

Don - why on earth do you want to work for money when you could be starving like a proper artist?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 09:11 PM

Foolstroupe, if we went over there we could play at one of Conrad's festivals - transport courtesy of Santa's reindeer and all the loaves and fish you can eat.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 09:04 PM

Talk about chutzpah!!!

". . . I do hold free events.

"Many professional musicians of late have found nothing but excuses instead of attending. We still get plenty of folk turning up but they are so into the money making greed that they attend oft goofy commercial activities instead."

You know, that is so over the top that it slid right by me at first.

Conrad, singing and entertaining people, and if possible, educating them a bit about folk music is my job. That's how I make my living. Some people are plumbers, some carpenters, some people are doctors, lawyers, nurses, janitors, welders, architects, draftsmen, flight attendants, pilot tug boats. . . . You get the idea. (You do get the idea, don't you!??)

Let's say I'm singing regularly on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday evenings at a local coffeehouse, and getting paid to do so (as I have done off and on for many years—it's my job!) And you invite me to some free event that you are throwing on a Saturday night, and I tell you, "Sorry, I'm afraid I can't make it. I'm working that night."

This makes me "greedy!??"

My job is a "goofy commercial activity?"

Man, you are a piece of work!!

The person who owns and runs the coffeehouse expects me to be there. The audiences expect me to be there. And getting paid for singing there is what allows me to pay the bills so I can keep singing there.

And you get all bent out of shape because I won't duck out on my job, disappoint a whole bunch of people who come there to hear me sing, lose a night's pay, and possible tick off my employer enough to fire me for being unrelable, and hiring someone else? Is this what you want, Conrad?

Sorry. Ain't gonna happen. And if this makes me "greedy" and "mercenary," then so be it!

"In addition to being a folk musician and storyteller at professional level I am also an artcar artist. I drive them daily and dont expect any money."

Yeah, I've seen pictures of your "art," Conrad. A couple of legs off a department store manikin stuffed into a garbage can with the feet sticking up so it looks like someone has been tossed into the garbage, and this is your idea of "visionary art?"

Jayzuz, man, gimme a break!!

Bloody hopeless. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 08:37 PM

Hey Don, we can do an 'Early Music' CD - I'll have to beam my input via Broadband ....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 08:31 PM

Uh, Don - I have crumhorns (dusty) and I'm not afraid to use them..

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 08:29 PM

Nobody in their opinion gets paid enough

So it's a level playing-field then.

I don't understand what your philosophy is, and you still haven't answered my question.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 08:19 PM

So now this is The Concept of FREED Folkmusic 101 ... :-P

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 08:18 PM

"[Don discusses various lucrative ways of increasing his income by faking up some more commercially popular music based on his existing talents and repertoire]
(Hey!! That's not a bad idea! I'm gonna think about that!!)"

Hey Don - Sting led the way ... :-P

I'm in need of an income boost Don - need a multi instrumentalist (keyboard based) to join in? I have mucked about with the virginals (I think that is what she said she was....) and the harpsichord, I got a lot of wind (instruments) experience, spent a lot of time mucking around with 'Early Music' myself, know a bit about portative pipe organs, can play a mean racket (so my critics say!), and can do a mean harmony, I mean I can harmonize .....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 08:13 PM

Nobody in their opinion gets paid enough
but with the demand generated by free folk music they will never have such ability to make money!

Nah pro folkies in my area are shown to be a bunch of arrogant piss heads just wanting to control your philosopy. Fine and they are still welcome providing that they dont want money.

In addition to being a folk musician and storyteller at professional level I am also an artcar artist. I drive them daily and dont expect any money

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 08:04 PM

Pros should remain in the background

From what you say, they are already doing so at your events. Perhaps you might try good manners, respect and gratitude (they cost nothing) if you want their support.

My attitude towards gig earnings has alway been that they are paying me for the wear and tear of my gear, and to be there. The music they get absolutely free of charge, and I am just paid to deliver it to the best of my ability.

You've still not answered my question, by the way.

Don Firth, you have the patience of a saint..

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 07:58 PM

Folk musicans and "greed" cannot be used in the same sentence, Conrad... Do you have any idea how little folkies are paid??? I mean, like a decent paying gig might pay $250... A festival gig, maybe twice that... Do the math... Ain't no folkies gettin' rich here...

BTW, there are plenty of workshops/camps out there where inexperienced folkies can spend a week with experienced folkies learning stuff... They aren't all that expensive and guess what??? The experience folkies ain't gettin' paid no big bucks either so inspite of yer insistence on puttin' "greed" with "folk musican", that dog don't hunt...

B~

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 07:40 PM

listen to sunday folk G. Tudor programme. Today~! available for a week play it again.

A well known poet and musician singer notes that she was intimidated to the extent that she did not start her folk career by stages and pro musicians....I rest my case.

This should never happen.

Pros should remain in the background

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 03:11 PM

". . . but they are so into the money making greed. . . ."

If a singer of folk songs is into "money making greed," he or she is certainly barking up the wrong tree. There are certainly more lucrative fields of music than folk music.

Case in point:   Early Music is really big in my area right now, as is demonstrated by the various groups that have been popping up around the country within recent years, such as The Baltimore Consort. They are much in demand by big paying audiences all over the country. Also, they have a huge stack of CDs out on the market. (They're from your area, Conrad; ever heard them? Or heard of them? They're very good).

Or The Renaissance Singers, whose home base is in my area, Seattle.

Or Elizabeth C. D. Brown, who recently graduated from the U. of W. School of Music and is now doing concerts, has several CDs out, and who is teaching lute and guitar at Pacific Lutheran University in Tacoma, 30 miles south of Seattle. She plays regular classical guitar, lute, and Baroque guitar.

I already play several lute pieces on the classic guitar, and all I need do is retire my guitar and pick up a lute or cittern and practice a bit. The playing techniques are essentially the same. And when I was at the U. of W., I sang with the University Singers and the University Madrigal group, so all I need to do is brush up on my French a bit, and I'm ready to go with all kinds of early French troubadour songs, a few Elizabethan songs (Dowland and such—I have a couple of books of such songs), and spice up my concerts and recitals with some songs from Shakespeare's plays (such as "Feste's Song" at the end of Twelfth Night). I have a book full of those, also. I already sing a few of them. And all I need to do is accompany them on the lute rather than on the guitar, and that will give me the image!

(Hey!! That's not a bad idea! I'm gonna think about that!!)

AND—for that matter, I could throw in a lot of folk songs as well.

You know? A whole lot of folk songs and ballads are "folk processed" descendants of the old troubadour and minstrel songs from pre-Renaissance times. I could build some really excellent programs with this!! Not only build prestige as a singer who really knows his material, but I could have a foot in both camps and really make a bundle while I'm at it!

I smell still another educational television series!!

By the way, Conrad, pull your head out of where the sun doesn't shine and take a good look around. The world is not the way you seem to think it is.

Don Firth

P. S.   And here's somthing you might think about:   if the better singers are not turning up at your events, did it ever occur to you that you, haranguing them about how they're doing it all wrong and trying to tell them how they should be doing it, might be the reason they're not showing up?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 08:16 AM

As I have said above I do hold free events.

Many professional musicians of late have found nothing but excuses instead of attending. We still get plenty of folk turning up but they are so into the money making greed that they attend oft goofy commercial activities instead. That is ok that is their choice.

Helping out is always wonderful but I have met all too many who dont put time and energy into it.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 04:47 AM

Conrad, you seem to think that commercialism, professionalism and excellence are preventing "ordinary" people from getting involved in folk music. You also seem to be fixated on folk festivals as the main and problematical reason for this prevention.

I don't know what planet you live on but, in my neck of the woods on planet Earth, I can't see any problem in making and listening to, good music for free. You seem to be shoving at an obstacle that doesn't exist, and making some rather fatuous statements in the course of doing so.

For example, how would budding or experienced musicians ever learn about different music or different playing styles if no-one ever travelled into our out of their community? From the radio or the TV, presumably. And where does the music on the radio or TV come from - from Mars?

How will younger or beginning or inexperienced musicians ever improve their playing without better, more experienced players to listen to and learn from? As an experienced guitarist, many people have asked for my help and advice in playing - help which I give freely. As a budding violinist, I go to pubs to hear more experienced players perform and, without exception, they freely give their advice and answer my questions. Many of these, by the way, are professional violinists - they earn their living from music - and their generosity knows no bounds.

And, as for earning a living from music, why the devil shouldn't anyone do that if they can?

I can listen to and play music every night of the week if I'm so inclined - at minimal cost. You're raising red herrings - and raising spirits at a music session is so much more fulfilling than listening to your nonsense.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 02:16 AM

Conrad, the only excuses around here are being made by you. You want others to do it all for you. And at their expense.

There's no problem having a folk music gathering. Just call up a bunch of people you know and invite them to your place for an evening of just sitting around and singing. It's that simple. If you want to be a good host, you might provide a case of beer and some snacks, but that's not essential. You could always make it BYOB. That's what a lot of the hoots around Seattle have been, and they've been going, off and on, since before I got involved in the early 1950s.

The first hoot I ever attended was in 1952. There hadn't been any for a few years. Then one evening while sitting in The Chalet restaurant with Walt Robertson and a couple of other people, Ken Prichard, the proprietor of The Chalet, came up to the table and said, "Hey, why don't we throw a hootenanny?" Walt broke into a grin and said, "Fantastic! Let's do it!" I said, "What's a hootenanny?" And Chuck Canady said, "It's an informal gathering of folk singers. They get together and sit around singing for each other. The word 'hootenanny' is one of these indefinite words like 'thingamajig,' but it usually means 'a noisy contrivance of doubtful utility.'"

So the following Saturday evening, Ken closed The Chalet for business and we had a hootenanny. About a dozen singers and seventy-odd other people came. Started at about 8:00 p.m. and lasted until well after midnight.

Subsequently, hardly a weekend would go by but there wasn't a hoot somewhere. Sometimes in the Friends (Quakers) Community Center, but more often in someone's living room.

And you know what? The East 42nd Street Arts Association developed out of that. That was US! The arts association organized a street arts festival, and you know what? The University District Businessmen's Club provided the funding and got the necessary city licenses for us. They even got the police department to block E 42nd Steet between University Way and 15th N. E. You see, one of us went to them and suggested that an event such as this that would draw lots of people to the U. District was just good business. EVERYBODY benefitted.

Then, we formed the Pacific Northwest Folklore Society. No dues, just a mailing list. It went dormant for awhile, but others sprung up in there place. The Seattle Folk Music Society, which used to get together a couple Saturday evenings a month at the University of Washington YM/YWCA. No charge, and they let us use the big lounge on the first floor.

Later came the Seattle Folklore Society, which started the Northwest Folklife Festival, a free event that draws thousands of singers and musicians, and hundreds of thousands of spectators.

A few years back, when the Seattle Folklore Society seemed to be interested in sponsoring concerts for singer-songwriters only, Stewart (who frequently posts on this forum), Bob (Deckman) Nelson, and I resurrected the Pacific Northwest Folklore Society. The PNW Folklore Society sponsors lots of folk music events (primarily consisting of traditional folk music).

Look, and be AMAZED! ———> CLICKY.

This is what one can do if they are so motivated, stop whining about the way things are, and get up off their lazy butts and DO something themselves, instead of begging others to do it for them.

Go thou, and sin no more!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 01:21 AM

... recording your own singing?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 11:11 PM

Have you tried writing poetry?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 10:40 PM

No I just dont want any EXCUSES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes I responded to the note about the Washington Folk Festival it is indeed wondrous but few like that around these days. I am there every year.
Yes it can work in my world but even the WFF has grantors and I would want to get around them.

Self Sufficiency- ordinary people doing ordinary things like playing music.

But the WFF is wonderful and a model that comes close.


Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 10:36 PM

"Lots of spaces.

People can generally meet up in them and play music without restriction.
What is the big insurance etc...etc...problem."

You don't WANT to understand.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Padre
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 09:56 PM

Conrad,
Go back and read my post about the Washington Folk Festival - it's dated 26 August 11:48 PM.

Then do the following for all of us here who have been subjected to your rant for the last week, never seeming to understand any of the ideas we have tried to pass on to you

1. Tell us why a festival such as the WFF would not work in your world, since it has worked for 30 years in ours.


Padre

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 09:52 PM

"The driving force behind music is the human condition. dont forget that if you do you will never understand what I am getting at here."

I would truly like to understand what you're getting at.

What exactly do you mean by 'the human condition', and why is it more important than the quality and efficacy (in my opinion) of music?


Meanwhile.. put on your events, as you think fit; no-one here has actually expressed a desire to stop you.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 09:34 PM

The task here is to go beyond formal concerns.

Lots of spaces.

People can generally meet up in them and play music without restriction.
What is the big insurance etc...etc...problem.

Turn up in a place play music.
Works for me.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 08:33 PM

As somone who put quite a lot of time into trying to set up a couple of different events at different locations in pretty much the style of Conrad's philosophy (not paying musos, low cost food, using existing minimal toilet, accommodation facilities, etc, etc), I just gave up on them all.

As a pensioner, I don't really want to make a huge profit - if I do I will lose my pension, at least for the amount that it is 'deemed' that I got, even if I did make a loss, cause most of the 'expenses' will be ignored anyway - after all it is my gross income, not any real 'profit' that I 'get'. OK I can get around most of that nonsense by setting up a real company - oh wait that costs quite a lot of money to do it properly. And then there is the insurance, and the performing rights Jobsworths ...

Apart from a distinct lack of sponsors, just getting the bastards who are going to make money out of it without putting almost anything in it themselves (financially) to even ring me back!!!! just burnt me out...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 07:58 PM

By the way, I didn't mean excellence for its own sake, I meant for everyone's, as it makes the music more effective, accessible and pleasurable.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 07:15 PM

I don't think you even begin to understand music or musicians except from your own perspective - there are others. I think you are using music for your own political soapbox and have little or no respect for the music itself, or musicianship.

Define "the human condition" within the context in which you use it.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 06:13 PM

The driving force should never be the pursuit of excellence that is the byproduct. The driving force behind music is the human condition. dont forget that if you do you will never understand what I am getting at here.

If you only let the "excellent" perform the non excellent will be deprived of opportunity and because the excellent charge money music therefore becomes rationed.

travel costs travel is not necessary it just makes it all more expensive.

Around here there is no after concert anything pay your money sit and listen then out the door.

Hoots are good but round here primairly if you play a stringed instrument.

Ordinary people are great musicians.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 05:50 PM

Why shouldn't ordinary people have higher quality professional music? Maybe you don't want it, Conrad, but I think you are in a minority - one which is adequately catered for, as far as I can see. Your apparent philosophy hinders the pursuit of excellence which is generally the driving force behind most music. The 'top end of the market' is a natural consequence of the 'bottom end', and couldn't exist without it. The 'bottom end' is constantly at saturation point - I don't think that can be changed a great deal. The only way to expand the current 'local' scene is to breed faster..

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 05:49 PM

"Jet-setting" musicians.

Okay, Conrad. Name me some of these jet-setting singers of folk songs.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 05:44 PM

"All a person needs to do is contact musicians coordinate a location go there and play...."

Okay, Conrad. Sounds simple enough. Why don't you just do it yourself instead begging other people to do it for you?

But, of course, there are a few problems there. First of all, what location? For a folk festival of any size, you need space. Public park? Well, you'd probably have to get a city permit and perhaps a license to hold a public event there before you will be allowed to use it legally. That might cost you a buck or two, so scratch that!

Some farmer's field, kind of like Woodstock? Well, it would be wise to get the permission of the farmer, otherwise he might usher you off the place at the business end of a pitchfork. Or he might offer to rent it to you. Oops! Money again! So, no go with that idea.

As to free events:   coming up tomorrow afternoon, a good friend of mine is throwing a "hoot."

The term, "hoot," short for "hootenanny," is what we call an informal gathering of folk singers. The term started in Seattle back in the 1940s, and Pete Seeger and Woody Guthrie picked it up when they were out here once, then they started using the word for their weekend gatherings at Almanac House in New York. It spread from there, and was eventually pre-empted by the ABC television network for their Saturday evening folk music show. Since then, in most places, a "hootenanny" has been a multi-performer concert with the musicians on a stage with the audience not participating but just listening. [See Pete Seeger's The Incompleat Folksinger.]

A "hoot," the way it has always been done around here, is not a "performers over here and audience over there" kind of thing. People just sit wherever they want. If the weather is good, it will probably be in my friend's big back yard. If not, he'll probably hold it in his large, spaceous workshop, or if the crowd is smaller, in his living room. There is no distinction between performers and audience. Sit anywhere you want, and if you feel like playing and / or singing, go right ahead. Just jump in. If you just want to sit and listen, feel free. He usually has a pot-luck, so you might be asked to bring something, and bring your own beer or wine (so maybe that wouldn't work for you, since you might have to spend a buck or two for a package of frankfurters and a six-pack or something). But no admission charge at the door. And none of the singers gets paid. The whole thing is for the sheer enjoyment of it.

So it sounds to me like you want to do something like that, only on a much bigger scale. Well, okay. No problem. Well—yes—a problem. Finding a big enough space for a few thousand people. And the logistics of managing a large crowd. So, wotthehell, Conrad, just go ahead and do it.

But no! You don't want to do it. You want someone else to do it for you!

AND—

"Must be different in the usa. Most people who headline folk events travel across the country by air or whatever and that naturally makes everything more expensive."

Where the hell did you get THAT idea!??

You know, Conrad, you keep using this phrase "jet-set musicians." I really don't know where you get cockamamie ideas like that. Maybe someone like Russian operatic baritone Dmitri Hvorostovsky may travel by jet, but his schedule might include singing an opera performance at the Met in New York, followed by another opera the next week at Covent Garden in London, followed by a series of recitals in South America or Japan. Also, it would cost you a couple of thousand dollars to book someone like Hvorostovsky. He has both talent and a great voice, and he has worked very hard to get where he is today. And he draws big crowds that don't mind paying top ticket prices to hear him sing.

I don't know of any singer of folk songs who commands anywhere near that kind of money

Jet set? Not hardly! When I sang somewhere other than Seattle, I usually went by Greyhound. If it's a long distance, then by train. Now that I have my own car, I can drive. But this (bus or train ticket, or gasoline), of course, I have to pay myself, so it's hardly worth the trip unless I get paid enough to cover that, plus what overnight accommodations I might need, AND make a living wage. Not a fortune. Just a living wage.

Otherwise, I simply can't afford to do it, depriving me of the enjoyment of singing for others, and those others, the enjoyment (hopefully) of hearing me sing.

Now, I sing at hoots and other gatherings like that for free. Those, of course, are usually right here in town and only a fairly short drive from where I live. I do it for my own enjoyment, and no money changes hands. But—I have a policy that, other than a benefit that I have agreed to do, if someone is making money off my singing, I insist on getting a cut of it. I think that's only reasonable and fair.

And as to "jet-setting musicians," on his concert tours, the late Richard Dyer-Bennet used to travel by Greyhound or by train. How do I know? He told me so.

Also, when he was on a concert tour, he would often sing earlier in the day at a high school assembly, introducing a lot of bubble-gummers and possibly aspiring rock musicians to the alternative of folk music. And he did this for either small fees or no fees at all.

"The concept of pro musician may encourage some but it also convinces others that they are not worthy."

You, perhaps, if your ego is really that fragile. But early on, even though at first I didn't know from Shinola about what was involved in learning to play the guitar and sing, hearing Walt Robertson (a professional) live, then spending a few hours with Pete Seeger (a professional) well past midnight after one of his concerts, and hearing and talking with people like Richard Dyer-Bennet, Theo Bikel, Gordon Bok, and many, many other professional singers of folk songs, far from convincing me that I was "not worthy," it inspired me to work hard, learn, and strive to be as good as they were / are. And, honestly, I have never met anyone who was so intimidated by someone else's talent and ability that they simply dropped whatever they were doing. Musicians, artists, dancers, writers, et al. Normal people are inspired rather than discouraged, and hearing a good performer, more often than not, encourages them to redouble their efforts.

That's a GOOD thing!!

Is the level of your self-esteem so low that hearing a good singer or musician convinces you that you are not worthy?

Apparently!

No, Conrad. Don Quixote, in his delusions, tilted at windmills, thinking that they were evil giants waving their arms. You, on the other hand, are tilting at imaginary windmills.

The problem you complain of doesn't exist. Folk music is alive and well all over the country. Perhaps there is a mini-drought in your neighborhood, but you can do something about that. If you really want to. That's what people all over the country—all over the world—do.

Don't just whine and complain. If you really think something should be done, then do it. Yourself!

Don Firth

P. S.   "If you just sit back and say 'Let George do it,' you might wake up one morning and discover that Bill did it instead, and you might not like that so well!"
—Pete Seeger

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 02:53 PM

Must be different in the usa. Most people who headline folk events travel across the country by air or whatever and that naturally makes everything more expensive.

Local is best.

Another problem is that if you want the local scene to grow you have to put whatever money there is into it. If you must use money.

The concept of pro musician may encourage some but it also convinces others that they are not worthy.

Its ordinary stuff for ordinary people!

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ralphie
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 02:16 PM

I just love Conrads theory of "Jet set" folkies....!!
Having picked myself up off the floor. I pose the question..
Name One. Go on..I dare you.
Every singer and musician I know on the UK folk scene earns rather less than the minimum wage.
I would advise you, Conrad, to go out and but a reality gene.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 02:01 PM

Access is there, at all levels and standards. You are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist. If there is currently little or no access to the music, how come so many people know of its existence?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 09:44 AM

nobody needs to travel

everyone can volunteer just ask the volunteers that are fooled that they are essential- if one volunteers everyone can. Festivals happen only for a few days each year. Companies loose much more than that in sick leave. So do the right thing volunteer EVERYONE

We dont need to support a master class of jet set big names we need to find the best way to provide access to the music.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 09:02 AM

Conrad,

What do *you* not understand about the difference between putting on local sessions with local people and putting on bigger events, or events featuring musicans skilled/ well known enough to draw large numbers of people?

For something like a pub session, yes, "all" you need to do is contact musicians and coordinate a location (ensuring the location owner is amenable, that perfoming licenses are obtained and paid for, the premises are insured, etc) then go there and play.

No problem in a pub, or in a private house with a couple of dozen people, or even on the street with something like "Commando Trad".

In fact, I'm going to such an event on 11th September at a friend's smallholding, where we'll have a hog roast (cooking one of his own pigs) and 20 or 30 people playing and singing...in a wooded area, well away from residences that may complain of noise etc.

But organising a whole "festival" with many hundreds of attendees is a whole diferent ball game. Yes, you can roll up with a couple of flat-bed tucks in a field to make a stage (but the trucks are at *someone's* cost, and the field owner may want rent). It'll be unlicensed and uninsured, but hell, there's a long history of "raves" in the UK where people turn up in a field and play without licenses, permission, or insurance. But almost always they've charged for it...if only to cover the cost of paying the fines and replacing their PA when the police confiscate it having turned up in response to complaints from the landowner or nearby residences. And there's the cost of cleaning up the area, etc.

As others have said, commercially successful bands have sometimes put on free events...but that's "free at the point of use" not "free of costs to set up".

And it was hardly "jet set muscicians" for *this* temporary (and loss-making) "fat cat" when the band he put on arrived with all 5 and all their kit crammed into an ancient Volvo. They were going to sleep on my floor, too, but we had an accommodation crisis that weekend with children unexpectedly returning home, so they slept in a local budget hotel that barely had beds, never mind a pool. They had 2 rooms between 5 at £24 for one room and £29 for the other. The only merchandising done was the sale of their own CDs at a cheaper price than they could be bought on line or in shops. I know what they charge, and I know how many gigs they do....quite frankly that band, and most of ther other good but not internationally famous artistes I know "on the circuit" would be better off drawing Job Seekers' Allowance (aka Unemployment Benefit) looking at their net income once costs have been taken into account.

And of course they need to travel. Even a band like Tom Williams and the Boat, with a very strong local following in West Kent and Sussex, would find audiences getting fed up with seeing them if they were constantly only playing in a 20 mile radius of home. It's called "exposure fatigue".

There's a TINY percentage of performers and entrepreneurs who make significant income from the music. Most just get by. The two biggest local entrepreneurs in this area live very modestly in small homes and drive battered old vehicles. They probably make losses on 50% of the events they put on.

This picture you have of "jet-setting" artistes demanding pools and not deigning to mingle with their audiences is just another example of the massive chip on your shoulder and bears no relation to the reality of the situation for 95% of artistes and entrepreneurs...probably nearer 99% in the case of folk artistes!!!

I can see a number of reasons why your folk "friends" may have dumped you, and none of them are related to politics. I'm dumping you now....bye.................

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 07:45 AM

What dont you understand about not needing entrepreneurs or travel.

Why do folk musicians have to travel? Stay where they are and train sufficient others and create an adequate local scene.

Travel is just another way to raise costs so we now have to pay for travel as well as the pool at the hotel.

You need to think about my proposals.

Telling me we need entrepreneurs is silly.

All a person needs to do is contact musicians coordinate a location go there and play....

That is exactly the problem fat cat entrepreneurs putting on festivals for their pockets and not for the music.

They load the festivals up with vendors and take money from them so that nothing vended is affordable either. We dont need shopping malls at festivals or money sucking entrepreneurs either or jet set folk musicians. Tell me this if they dont make much money how can they afford to travel as you discuss. I think those who travel like that make far too much money. They are supporting airlines not music.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 06:04 AM

Don: The entrepreneur is the one who rents the venue, does the promotion, pays the musician, and IF there is any money left over after these expenses, he pockets it.   Which is only fair, considering that he or she took the risk, spent the time and effort making all the arrangements, and did all the necessary promotion, without which, the concert would never have taken place. Most of the entrepreneurs within my experience who are involved in folk music are more interested in hearing the singers than they are in getting rich

Absolutely! About 18 months ago I put on Tiny Tin Lady in Tunbridge Wells, purely because I liked them and thought they deserved a bit of exposure in the south east.

They paid their own expenses down from Leeds (not insignificant) but I put them up overnight here (Gawd, for small girls they can drink!!!). They charged a very reasonable fee, and made no demands for a rider. I did put on a vegetarian spread for them back stage, though, and bought them a modest keg of Heineken to keep their whistles wet.

I got the venue at "Mate's Rates", ie about 30% below normal price, because I know the owners. I paid about £100 for publicity posters and flyers to hand out and worked hard to get 2 spots (one a decent sized feature with pics) in the local paper and a slot on the local radio, all free. I also managed to persuade Ric Sanders of Fairport Convention to announce the gig from the stage at Fairport's Tunbridge Wells apearance a few weeks before the TTL gig. Ticket prices were the usual rates for a relatively unknown band.

With all that, and despite getting a reasonably decent crowd in for the venue and band, I made a loss of about £200 on the evening. I'd been pretty certain that I would make a loss, though that was slightly more than I'd hoped for. But, as you say, I was more interested in bringing the girls' music to a wider audience than in making a profit...however, if I'd adopted Conrad's approach my loss would have been nearer £800 than £200! There are limits to what anyone can absorb!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 10:12 PM

Professional musicians are not "running up the costs of public music." And what, exactly, do you mean by "public music?"

There are some simple, basic economics at work here, Conrad, that you don't seem to be aware of.

At concerts and such, the ticket prices are not set by the musicians. More often than not, the entrepreneur tells the musician what he or she will be paid, and it's then up to the musician to agree, or to turn the offer down and go somewhere else. The musician rarely gets the opportunity to set costs. The entrepreneur is the one who rents the venue, does the promotion, pays the musician, and IF there is any money left over after these expenses, he pockets it.   Which is only fair, considering that he or she took the risk, spent the time and effort making all the arrangements, and did all the necessary promotion, without which, the concert would never have taken place. Most of the entrepreneurs within my experience who are involved in folk music are more interested in hearing the singers than they are in getting rich, and booking them for concerts, often house concerts, which is a good way to cut expenses and have the concert in a comfortable, fairly intimate situation. AND it makes the singer readily accessible to the audience.

You can hardly expect a singer to pay their own expenses to travel all the way from, say, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Boston, or New York to Baltimore and back again to sing for you for no fee and no compensation for their expenses.

No—I am wrong. That IS what you expect.

Folk festivals. I don't know what the arrangements were at the Berkeley Folk Festivals, but the Seattle Folklife Festival, held at the Seattle Center (former World's Fair grounds) every memorial day weekend, is free of charge to the public. And the singers and other musicians don't get paid. They volunteer to perform and / or participate in workshops, and they are almost always available after a performance or workshop to schmooze with anyone who wants to. I've participated in several of these festivals. And there are sometimes as many as 6,000 performers of one sort or another in attendance. And some performers are from out of town. One year, I met and heard one young woman there all the way from, I believe it was Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. And she paid her own traveling and living expenses. Several hundred thousand people attend—free of charge—over the long week end. And I know there are other folklife festivals all over the country very much like this one, so, frankly, I don't really know what you are whining about.

Look. I'll make you an offer you can't refuse. The next time I do a concert or sing at a festival, I'll let you know when and where it is. Then, you can hitchhike to Seattle—or better still, hop a freight train. That's a very traditional, folky thing to do. While you're here, there are lots of bridges in Seattle that you can sleep under. No charge, of course. And since Seattle is strong on recycling, finding free food in Dumpsters might not be all that reliable, but there is a whole bunch of churches in the city who have free lunch programs for the homeless and the indigent. So that takes care of food and lodging.

I'll make sure that you will be admitted to the concert without charge, and after the concert, I'll talk with you for as long as you like, then I'll make sure you get a ride to where you can hop a freight back to Baltimore.

Okay?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 06:40 PM

No attitude problem here and I dont force anything on anyone quite quiet infact. Lots of exceptions to every observation however getting back from comments about me to the point.

There is no need for professional musicians running up the costs of public music.

As you point out there are places for them to make their money and yes its never enough. Join the club.

Why wouldn't freed music prosper if everyone worked at it?

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 03:41 PM

". . . then asked where the musicians went after their short performances to find them rather than at the festival with all of us spending the rest of the day at the hotel pool with each other. I can go on and on and on. . , ."

The first big folk festival I attended was the Berkeley Folk Festival in 1960. It began on a Wednesday at noon, and continued over the Memorial Day weekend. Two-hour workshops began at ten a.m., there was an hour lunch break, then workshops resumed at one p.m., followed by another at three. After each workshop, there was time to mingle with the singers and others on the panels and ask further questions, or simply chat a bit. From five to about seven-thirty, there was a dinner break, and the evening was given over to concerts by the featured performers. Professional singers of folk songs.

The roster consisted of Peggy Seeger, Ewan MacColl, John Lomax Jr., The New Lost City Ramblers, Sandy Paton (whom I had known in Seattle in the early 1950s), Merritt Herring, Sam Hinton, and Lightnin' Hopkins.

After one concert, I ran into Sandy Paton after his evening concert, and he invited me to a party. We were there for no more than fifteen minutes when Peggy Seeger and Ewan MacColl walked in. I had a great opportunity to swap a few songs with them and we talked a lot. As did others who were there. The following evening, I wound up at another after-concert party, and there was Lightnin' Hopkins jamming with several local blues musicians.

Subsequent Berkeley Folk Festival provided an opportunity to sit around in one of the lounges in a building on the U. C. campus and chat with Charles Seeger, patriarch of the Seeger family, Archie Green, a folklorist and ethnomusicologist, blues singer Mance Lipscomb, Jean Redpath, who was making her first appearances at the festival, and the internationally known duo, Marais and Miranda (a thoroughly charming couple!). These folks were interested in talking to people such as me and others like me, and they were quite accessible.

By the way, the entire cost to attend the festival was $15.00 for the whole thing, all the workshops and all the concerts, along with a big barbeque on the last day. No concessions at the festival. You could bring a sack lunch or go off-campus to any one of several nearby restaurants.

I conversed with Joan Baez a couple of times, once in Seattle and again in Berkeley. On two occasions I have chatted with Richard Dyer-Bennet. He was friendly and outgoing, and when he heard what I was interested in doing with my music, he was very helpful and encouraging.

One of the local record stores had arranged a record autographing party for Theodore Bikel the day following his concert in Seattle's brand-new opera house in 1962, during the World's Fair. Six singers, including me, came to the record store at the appointed time and found Bikel sitting in front of the counter by a large stack of his records. The proprietor of the store was apologizing profusely because the advertising he had tried to do didn't make it into the papers. Bikel seemed relieved. But he was more that happy to sit for a couple of hours and chat with us. And this was not only a professional singer of folk songs, but he was most recently famous for creating the role of Baron Von Trapp in "The Sound of Music" on Broadway, and who was active in acting in movies and television. He found sitting around and chatting casually with a group of folk music enthusiasts enjoyable and refreshing. He said, "After spending every evening of the week in the company of seven children and twenty nuns, it's a relief to talk to real people again!" Very informative. And very helpful and encouraging to all of us. One young woman folk singer who was there sang in several languages, as Bikel did. He asked her to send him a tape of her singing, and wrote his mailing address out for her.

My first encounter with a well-known folk singer was in 1954, when Pete Seeger gave a concert in Seattle. There was an after-concert party. Pete, who had been to Seattle a number of times before, wanted to meet some of the current batch of folk music enthusiasts, and I wound up sitting cross-legged on Carol Lee Waite's living room floor with Pete and three or four other Seattle singers until 4:00 in the morning, passing a guitar back and forth, with Pete showing us all kinds of good stuff! Pete's genuine enthusiasm for the music was very contagious!

In other categories of music, being a member of the Seattle Classic Guitar Society, I have met and talked with Andrés Segovia on two occasions, and with John Williams, Julian Bream, Pepe Romero, and flamenco guitarist Carlos Montoya (where I found he was using an Arcangel Fernandez flamenco guitar just like the one I got a couple of years before). Also, the guitar duo, Ida Presti and Alexandre Lagoya. Lagoya offered me a couple of pointers on my right hand position and finger action.

I detail these things not just to name-drop or brag about all the famous people I've met, but to illustrate just how open, available, and encouraging of new talent that most professional musicians are.

As for myself, whenever I've performed, either in concert, at folk festivals, or for that matter, in coffeehouses, I'm out there and available to talk with people, find out what they think, what they're interested in, and provide help and advise if I can. In coffeehouses, rather than disappearing into the back room, I stay out front, table-hop some, and chat with people. And Bob Nelson, with whom I've done hundreds of gigs, does the same thing. Most singers do!

One example out of many is the concert that Judy Flenniken and I did at Whitman College in Walla Walla, Washington. After our concert, we adjourned to a nearby lounge, where a number of students, particularly interested in doing music themselves, joined us. We spent as long chatting and swapping songs in the lounge as we had out on stage. Standard operating procedure with us.

By the way, the Whitman College student organization that hired us to do the concert, paid for us to fly from Seattle to Walla Walla and back again, booked and paid for hotel accomodations for us, an paid us $150 apiece.

Now, here's a little hint, Conrad:    I occasionally run into someone who couldn't find his own butt with both hands and a copy of Gray's Anatomy, but is hell-bent on telling me that I'm doing it all wrong, and then he proceeds to lecture me on how I should be doing it.

Conrad, I think Will Fly has put his finger on your problem:

"Conrad, I get the distinct impression that, if you've experienced being shut out of a musical environment, then a lot of it may well be down to you and your attitudes. As others have said, you appear to have a bloody great chip on your shoulder. I've been making music for 45 years and I've never experienced such attitudes or treatment. I've no doubt they exist - it all boils down to how you cope and deal with them."

You've got a real attitude, Conrad. I think you'll find the source of your problem if you take a good look in a mirror.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 01:58 PM

Crow Sister - the Bradfield weekend is lovely - a small but packed weekend of music in the Peak district. I've bagged a room at the Royal in Dungworth for the whole 4 days and I'm looking forward to the sessions, the talks, the singing, the tunes, the whole atmosphere of a unique event. Well worth the travel up from Sussex...