The Concept of FREED Folkmusic

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 01:45 PM

Conrad, I get the distinct impression that, if you've experienced being shut out of a musical environment, then a lot of it may well be down to you and your attitudes. As others have said, you appear to have a bloody great chip on your shoulder. I've been making music for 45 years and I've never experienced such attitudes or treatment. I've no doubt they exist - it all boils down to how you cope and deal with them.

To be honest, if you ram the sorts of opinions that you've spouted on Mudcat down the throats of honest-to-god, working musicians - in the way that you have on Mdcat - then it's not wonder you've had a rough deal from time to time.

Think on that - think about how your views might be be received...

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 11:34 AM

Thanks for this Howard, I googled it and it does look really rather good. Sounds like it would be well worth the drive up there. Great landscape too.



"Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones - PM
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 04:18 AM

Crow Sister, I'm referring to Bradfield Traditional Music Weekend, held up in the hills above Sheffield. Traditional song and music sessions, a ceilidh and usually a couple of talks.

The next one is 15-17 July 2011. It will probably be announced here."

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 11:18 AM

As for being "jingoistically liberal, I've not seen that.

There's a big difference between pushing an active socialist or liberal agenda and in trying to ensure that a *music and cultural* movement isn't taken over by an extreme organisation peddling hate, which is what has been happening in certain places in the UK.

If preventing a group like the BNP from taking over a non-political movement for political ends is "jingoistically liberal" then I'm afraid you have a strange definition of the phrase. There's no way I'm in any way a socialist, but I fully support any attempts to prevent the BNP from hijacking folk music for its own ends.

I don't actually know the politics of most of the people I play/ sing and listen with, but they drive everything from the latest model Mercedes to 20 year old Japanese hatchbacks, or nothing at all. The ones whose homes I'm aware of live everywhere from studio apartments in run-down tenements to 7 or 8 bedroom homes set in several acres of parkland. They do every kind of work from investment banker to office cleaner and all points in between. I imagine their politics are just as varied.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 11:05 AM

Sorry, only PART of my post posted there. No idea why. Here it is in full:

Peasant: In many instances I have never found such a closed society. One set of politics, one set of lifestyle values (or general lack thereof) and very very set in their ways. I have recently lost a good group of folk musician friends for simply defending my own particular values and philosophies.

You seem to have a real chip on your shoulder here. I'm a newcomer to the "folk environment". I've always listened to some folk-rock and "folky-ish" music but it's only in the last year, a year after I started learning (electric) guitar and at about the time I got my first acoustic guitar, that I've really got "into" folk music at the roots level.

And, as I said above, I've *never* had any indication of a requirement to adopt a particular lifestyle, or to conform to any sort of politics. Or had anyone impose on me restrictions on what I could sing or play.

I can imagine that if I sang a viciously racist song, or tried to hi-jack a session to push my political views, that wouldn't go down well, but I don't think I'd be ostracised from a group for having a different political viewpoint to others, unless it was so extreme that the vast majority of mainstrem society would be repelled by it. I suspect the reasons that you lost your friends are a bit more complex than the "simple" one you stated.

Peasant: I have worked with professional musicians at festivals where I was there out in the hot sun all day managing stages then asked where the musicians went after their short performances to find them rather than at the festival with all of us spending the rest of the day at the hotel pool with each other.

And I've been to festivals and events where the performers, even big names, have mingled with the crowd when they weren't on, listened to other artistes, had drinks with people, etc. In fact, that's almost guaranteed at "folky" events, and even normal with up-and-coming rock and indie bands. The last six paying gigs I've been to, the performers have been in the audience [for the other act(s)] and/or the bar at every one. I'm afraid it's this chip on your shoulder showing again. someone's pissed you off at sometime, so you seem to have tarred the whole folk world with the same brush.

I think that, before you continue to accuse others of being inflexible and having very fixed ideas, you should take a long hard look at yourself.

Oh, and if you're going to advertise web design services among your many areas of "expertise", do something about that absolute abortion of a web site.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 10:58 AM

As you note you have just begun. It will of course depend on the community. But you should know that the folk world is jingoistically liberal, alt lifeways, socialist and tightly knit making it difficult for people with other views to come in from the outside. This is particularly true for storytellers. I can tell one of the big leaders wondrous stories for hours with approvial but they still want me to sit at their feet an evening a month before you get any where near a stage. Always scares them to run into tellers at the professional level who just happen to get in through the back door of a venue. I came to learn that the best venues are not formal stages but people in line for the restroom who really need a few good short stories. Grand applause all the time.

No I dont push my views. Sometimes I state them or politely disagree.
Then I'm generally locked out.

No chip just bruises and disapointment in exchange for my investments and promotions.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 10:47 AM

Peasant: In many instances I have never found such a closed society. One set of politics, one set of lifestyle values (or general lack thereof) and very very set in their ways. I have recently lost a good group of folk musician friends for simply defending my own particular values and philosophies.

You seem to have a real chip on your shoulder here. I'm a newcomer to the "folk environment". I've always listened to some folk-rock and "folky-ish" music but it's only in the last year, a year after I started learning (electric) guitar and at about the time I got my first acoustic guitar, that I've really got "into" folk music at the roots level.

And, as I said above, I've *never* had any indication of a requirement to adopt a particular lifestyle, or to conform to any sort of politics. Or had anyone impose on me restrictions on what I could sing or play. I can imagine that if I sang a viciously racist song, or tried to hi-jack a session to push my political views, that wouldn't go down well. I said "viciously racist" because at last night's sessions some of the "trad" songs performed were somewhat anti-Freanch, or anti-Portuguese

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 09:20 AM

Of course you say that santa doesnt exist- he doesnt get paid so he must not have value.

I have associated with folk musicians of many kinds most of my life. England Germany and united states.

In many instances I have never found such a closed society. One set of politics, one set of lifestyle values (or general lack thereof) and very very set in their ways. I have recently lost a good group of folk musician friends for simply defending my own particular values and philosophies. I have brought local musicians hundreds of paying customers only to find them totally disrespect the efforts. I have worked successfully to promote local bands with artcars and personal appearances only to have that successful work go unappreciated. I have worked with professional musicians at festivals where I was there out in the hot sun all day managing stages then asked where the musicians went after their short performances to find them rather than at the festival with all of us spending the rest of the day at the hotel pool with each other. I can go on and on and on......

Yes exceptions but few.

Professional musicians in general want to be carried along by volunteers but want that pay check or no music comes out.

Remember they can do what they want. But they really are not as important as they think they are and we could do much better putting the funds to other uses.

But remember I say the same for the local port o pot man who cant seem to donate his services for one weekend a year, same for all the people living off of the folk world causing it to be limited.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 09:11 AM

I know the festival very very well. One of the best things in the world and motivation for my work in this area. One of the ways I got into folk music. I could afford to attend. Now I bring my artcar gourney and horn hats to join in the fun. And when I entertain kids there I never ever contemplate the monetary value of what I do. Wouldn't occur to me

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 02:30 AM

You obviously don't know many—or any—musicians, Conrad. Especially not professional musicians.

I have an old friend, a woman I went to high school with, who was an operatic soprano (she's retired now). She was not just "an ordinary person" for whom music was just a part of her life. It was her whole life. She sang in opera houses all over, and when she wasn't singing a role in some opera, she was doing recitals.

Another high school friend got a bit-part singing in a movie with Bing Crosby just a couple of years after he graduated. Then he headed for Broadway. His first big break was singing in "Damn Yankees," and he was understudy to the lead. When he wasn't singing on Broadway, or "Off Broadway," he sang in the lounges of big hotels all up and down the East Coast. Music was his whole life.

The choir director at a nearby church gives voice lessons during the week, sings with a group called "The Esoterics," that does concerts all over this area and I believe they have some CDs out. He is also a brilliant pianist and does occasional recitals. Music is his whole life.

These, and many others I know, are professional musicians. That's how they make their livings.

"Professionals have a role but it should not be a major one and in public settings they should not be specialists."

In what way should professional musicians and singers not have a major role? And how can they be in a public setting and not be a specialist? What do you mean by "specialist?"

Barbara Johansson specialized in opera and art songs. Frank Bouley sang Broadway show tunes and songs by Cole Porter, Irving Berlin, and others. Jim leads a church choir, sings a variety of different songs, frequently early music, with "The Esoterics," and plays classical music on the piano. These are all specialties.

I sing folk songs and ballads to the accompaniment of a classical guitar. That is a specialty.

And how are these people to live if they don't get paid? If Barbara isn't paid by the opera company she sings for or the audience she gives a recital for? Or if the Broadway show company doesn't pay Frank for his rehearsal time and time on stage, or if he's not paid by the hotels where he sings? Jim is paid by the church to lead the choir, and I don't know what arrangement "The Esoterics" have for paying their singers, but they do pay them. And when he does a piano recital, those who sponsor the recital pay him. Jim is versatile, but each of the things he's engaged in is a specialty.

And these are just a few of the professional musicians that I know. I know far more than these, and of course I know whole bunches of professional singers of folk songs, including some very well-known names. Considering the wide variety of music and song that is there for people to perform, those who sing folk songs and ballads such as Bob Nelson and I do—or as people like Joan Baez, Richard Dyer-Bennet, Peggy Seeger, Dave Van Ronk, and all the rest, are specializing in one particular area of the broad range of music available.

. . . paying pro musicians . . . simply puts specialists and their fees ahead of the tradition."

Conrad, I can guarantee you this:   if it were not for professional singers of folk songs constantly re-introducing folk songs and ballads to today's audiences, the tradition would be a very small, little known pigeon hole of music (speaking of "esoteric!") that most people would never know anything about. What with radio and television as the entertainment of most people, the tradition of providing an evening's entertainment by taking the fiddle down from the wall or picking up the banjo or guitar, even in those areas where people like Cecil Sharp and the Lomaxes found and collected songs, would have long since died out. And in most of these areas, it has.

So be thankful to both those who sing these songs because they enjoy singing them—and the professionals who also chose to sing these songs because they enjoy them—and whose need to keep performing (and being paid to do so) so they can keep singing them is one of the major factors in keeping folk music alive and reasonably well.

By the way, here's a news flash. I hate to be the one to tell you this, but Santa Claus does not exist.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Padre
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 11:48 PM

Conrad, Come to Washington DC and see the Washington Folk Festival. There you'll find PROFESSIONAL folksingers doing two days of concerts, workshops, dancing, etc and NO ONE gets paid, not the performers, not the staff or volunteers. Then get back on your soapbox, if you dare.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 11:06 PM

The guy who works on my old cars works for free.

Don there is no comparison. A doctor is a specialist a person who plays music as a part of their lifeway is an ordinary person going about their life. There are professionals and there are most other people. The professional is a distortion of the ordinary person who plays just to play. Professionals have a role but it should not be a major one and in public settings they should not be specialists. Lots of special events they can be specialists at. A worthy tradition- weddings wakes birthdays.....

I dont want to spend exposure I use exposure to broaden the audience. We do not need professional musicians to intrude into the public space. They just cause the costs to go way up and that limits participation.

Sort of like me and santa. I get paid for special events but santa stops at most houses each christmas and does not get paid at all he just does it because it is part of the lifeway of ordinary people.

I would not insist that everyone who helps santa be paid just because I get paid for private events. Same with pro musicians there is a role an ancient one. They played at the courts of the nobility however and not in the homes of the ordinary folk.

Again paying pro musicians even though they are not getting paid enough (really selfish argument as no one ever thinks they are getting paid enough) simply puts specialists and their fees ahead of the tradition.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 10:00 PM

"So I guess it is because professional musicians are greedy and WON'T make music part of their lifestyle preferring instead to live life as wandering juke boxes.

"I say we can do without them in that case."

You're not getting it, Conrad. First of all, one cannot become a professional musician unless the music they play is a major part of their "lifestyle." It's just simply impossible for it to be otherwise. And as far as your charge of selfishness and greed is concerned, do you whine about having to pay a doctor? Or a dentist? Or the grocery store when you buy a bagful of food? Or the restaurant when you go out to eat? Or that you have to pay for the gasoline that you put in your car? How about the rent or the payments on your house?

Do you have a television set? Or a radio? Did you buy them, or did you just salvage them from a junkyard and fix them up yourself? Don't you have to pay for the electricity to run them? And your lights? Utilities in general, such as water and sewage. Don't you have to pay either a fee or taxes to have your garbage hauled away? Or do you just glue it to the hood of somebody's car? How about clothes?

Then why should a professional musician, someone who may very well have spent a great deal of their own money on school and lessons and put in the time and effort to learn to play an instrument, or sing—or both, in the case of most singers of folk songs, has spent additional time and effort to learn songs and sing them well, and continue to learn more and more songs throughout their careers NOT be paid for plying their trade—just like everybody else?

Why is it that when they feel they should be paid for exercising their profession, you consider them "narrow, selfish, and greedy?"

And do without them? I don't think so!

Professional musicians—singers of folk songs—do a great deal to promote the kind of music they perform. For several reasons. One is that it is simply good business. Several folk singers, including me, sang at the United Nations Pavilion every Sunday afternoon over the duration of the Seattle World's Fair in 1962. We sang for free! To thousands of fairgoers. Several people who sang there, including me, got hired to sing elsewhere. Judy Flenniken and I were hired to sing at the Port Angeles Centennial celebration, and Nancy Quensé, Stan James, and I were hired to sing at the Port Townsend Arts Festival—for which we got paid quite well. I got several paid gigs from people who heard me at the World's Fair. And so did most of the other singers. In this case, exposure was good for us.

But you can't spend "exposure" at the grocery store. Most professionals do a lot of freebies, yes. But if a professional performer doesn't get hired for money, they'll soon have to hang up their guitar or banjo or Irish harp, and get a job pumping gas or put on a paper hat and ask people "Do you want fries with that?"

My first exposure to folk music was from professional singers of folk songs. When I was in my mid-teens, I heard Burl Ives's program "The Wayfaring Stranger" on the radio, where he talked about American history and sang songs about it. In one afternoon's program, I learned more about the building of the Erie Canal than I ever learned in any history class. And heard songs like "I Got a Mule and Her Name is Sal" and "When the E-ri-e was a-risin'" that afternoon. And a friend of mine had one of Richard Dyer-Bennet's albums. In the very late Forties and very early Fifties, I heard The Weavers on the radio and on juke boxes. And then, Walt Robertson's concert in The Chalet restaurant that I describe above.

This was in the very early 1950s, so I got turned on early. But how many people first became interested in folk music by listening to Harry Belafonte, The Gateway Singers, The Kingston Trio, Peter Paul and Mary, et al?

Professional musicians, Conrad! Professional musicians who performed folk songs and ballads! THEY were the ones who ignited the folk music revival in the first place and inspired many others to follow in their footsteps, or at the very least, learn to sing folksongs themselves for their own enjoyment.

I do not begrudge Pete Seeger or Walt Robertson or Joan Baez or Richard Dyer-Bennet or Guy Carawan or Judy Collins or any one of the dozens—hundreds—of other professional performers of folk music one nickel of their earnings. Not one nickel!

And Frank Hamilton, who is a regular contributor to this forum, is a first-rate professional singer and instrumentalist, AND he was a co-founder of the Old Town School of Folk Music in Chicago back in the mid-1950s. I don't know for certain, but it may very well still be going. Now, Conrad, I don't think one can do any more to promote folk music than that. And there, too, people like Frank Hamilton deserve everything they have earned through their performing and much more.

Frankly, Conrad, your bad-mouthing of professional musicians as being "selfish and greedy" strikes me, first, as just bloody ignorant, then going on from there, downright mean-spirited, just because you want to free-load by enjoying the service, but not wanting to "pay the laborer his due."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 09:28 PM

Greed has nothing to do with this...

Hey, ain't like folkies pull in big dough for performing... Most gigs pay around $200 to $250... Now, ya' take that and subtract the expenses, taxes, wear and tear on yer car, and ya' might net half that for getting dressed up, loadin' yer gear, driving "x" number of miles, unloadin' yer gear, settin' up yer gear, performin', relaoding yer gear in the car, drivin' "x" number of miles home, unloadin' yer gear and settling down after all that...

That is reality and after you've done that a couple hundred or couple thousand times then to be called greedy for doing it is downright insulting... It's as bad as the guy bookin' you knowing exactly what calibre you are going to bring into his club and then not paying you because it rained and the turnout was lousy...

It's cheap!!!

That's exactly what it is!!!

Tell ya what, Conrad... Call yer doctor next time yer sick and ask him to work for free... Or the guy who works on yer car...

Get real and quit with this "greedy" bullshit...

If a bunch of inexperienced musican wantabees want to get together, fine... Do it... But don't try to bully people who have put in the time to be professionals to do yer freebees...

B~

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 09:03 PM

If everyone works at it it will happen.

People turn up play music and others come and listen, others come and help and listen

You know some of the best folk music was played by the poorest people. No electricity for amplification, no stages, no running water, hardly any food. It did not pay the bills but it sustained in other ways.

Like a free slice of ice cold ripe watermellon on a hot day.

I always bring at least one to every festival I go to with the artcars.

Booths selling food and drink but there I am slicing it off with a big knife and handing it out for free.

I have never ever seen so many very happy people.

Like a piece of free watermelon slice it off for free and they will return, the music will grow and humanity will be uplifted.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: olddude
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 08:58 PM

Well we have performers in the park every Saturday during the summer. I have done dozens of them ... all for free .. and there are hundreds of people there ... loads of fun .. I have also asked for donations to charity and raised quite a bit of cash for them also ..

it is pretty common around my neck of the woods. Likewise there are many paid venues also. Most will do both

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 08:22 PM

I'm sure they will.

I wish you luck.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 07:59 PM

Ok smokey as a famous president once used to say there you go again.

Yes I know music does not pay enough.

But then the volunteers who make most festivals run dont get paid anything. Yet musicians dont share their money with them.

I just loved working at a major folk festival for a few seasons. "this festival would not be possible without you volunteers" yeah sure. He drove an expensive late model import and used the profits to travel europe most of the summer- sure it doesnt pay enough.

My point is that if public music was free it would expand the demand such that professionals would indeed have better incomes but professionals ration music and keep costs up all generally on the backs of volunteers.

Then they tell us they "occasionally" do free stuff when its a "good cause"

Promoting free music is the best cause anywhere as it opens it up to absolutely everyone and helps to make music a lifeway rather than a profession that only can barely feed a few anyway.

Its the best cause.

Again if pro musicians wish to be narrow and selfish and ration their work and continue to hold down venues when they are burned out and interested only in income fine. They can choose to come or go.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 07:36 PM

Conrad, most professionals do their share of free stuff, when it's for a good cause. You're being a bit insulting now. If we were greedy, we'd probably be doing something that paid better than music.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 06:38 PM

So I guess it is because professional musicians are greedy and WON'T make music part of their lifestyle preferring instead to live life as wandering juke boxes.

I say we can do without them in that case.

I play tin whistle, alto horn, bones if I have a hymnal I sing I have done all professionally, also a professional storyteller.

I just do this stuff. I tell stories to people in line when shopping, I pull out the tin whistle. I play each sunday alto horn and never once does it enter my head that I have spent time learning. I am always learning. Yes my parents gave me music lessons but never ever do I think of that however, apparently for some musicians that is their main concern in life the burden of all that learning time and money. I recently purchased two alto horns on ebay- inexpensive ones but good ones. I dont think of them as investments- how crude- they are instruments.

Ok they can opt out and hang around and benefit from the increassed demand which comes from free music or do it for free a few times a year. So you are basically saying we should tolerate a lack of dedication to the people and to the tradition replaced by self interest. Dont think so.

Nobody has to have money to play music or sing or tell stories. Believe me they happen without money.

When I taught history I ran into teachers with burn out. I could not live without being interested in history but they had more interest in golf and running than the field they were supposed to be dedicated to. At that point hang it up take a break and let someone who is not burned out carry it forward.

So now we have removed the self centered burned out pro musician who happens to have spent way way too much on equipment- they can stay home. Or not.

So whats holding back the expansion of free music then?

Note- session music in pups sells food and bier and around here the musicians do not play sessions in reasonable places they always seem to gather at expensive places where the landlords give them food and drink to play to help rip off their customers.

I was once criticized for teaching in an Irish Pub in Bmore city.
At the end of the session when off the clock I would get a pitcher of the cheapest beer domestic- thats all I could afford and shouldnt have paid for that. I was criticized as drinking pitchers of cheap beer. Yeah the critic was a musician playing for free pints of an Imort and getting cash as well. Which of course raised the cost of my bier.

I do not have in mind sessions I am talking festivals. One could have a series of nearby venues.

We don't do free music for exposure either and that is an ancient line. We do it to spread the music in the most efficient manner and to widen the community by so doing. Money screens out people who dont have it simple as that and when that is done it is wrong.

Live the music and it will grow faster.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 02:49 PM

Here's a little parable for you, Conrad.

In the early 1960s, I went to hear a singer people had told me about who sang at a posh restaurant and cocktail lounge in downtown Seattle. Clark's "Red Carpet." Some people told me he was a folk singer. Well, he wasn't. His name was Bob Weymouth. He accompanied himself on the guitar, but he sang popular songs, Broadway show tunes, a bit of Country and Western—and a few of the better known folk songs, such as some of the ones recorded by Harry Belafonte, the Kingston Trio, and The Limeliters.

Bob Weymouth was a passable guitarist and a very good singer. Nice, light baritone voice. And he put the songs across very well. We talked a lot between his sets and we got to know each other. He asked me a lot about the coffeehouse, "The Place Next Door," where I was singing on weekends, and I asked him about singing in cocktail lounges and such. "The Place Next Door" paid quite well for most coffeehouses, but the "Red Carpet" paid a whole lot more.

One evening, he showed me a letter that his agent (yes, he had an agent) had sent him. The agent had gotten him an engagement in Chicago, at one of the Playboy Clubs. The letter said that Bob would be paid $300 a week for twelve weeks, with option to renew the engagement. Now, in the early Sixies, $300 a week was a nice chunk of money. The agent went on to say that he was sorry he couldn't get more, but that's all Hugh Hefner paid for a first engagement. But if Hefner picked up the option to renew, Bob would then receive $450 a week. And if he renewed the option yet again, he would be paid $600 a week, and so on.

I commented to Bob that I didn't understand why the agent was apologizing for not being able to get him more money. Then Bob gave me a bit of an education in the finances involved in being a musician.

He told me that first, his agent took 15% off the top (15% is more than the usual 10%, but Bob said he was worth it because he kept finding good jobs for him). Then, he had to pay his own travel and living expenses. And, of course, income taxes and all that. "So," Bob informed me, "by the time I pay all of my expenses, I have only about half of that left."

Reality check!

A couple of times, I was contracted to sing in a coffeehouse in Bellingham, Washington, called "Three Jolly Coachmen." They paid reasonably well. And since I would be there for some time, they also paid my travel expenses and got me a room in a nearby hotel. Sometime later, I was asked to sing at a coffeehouse over on the Olympic Peninsula. Like the "Three Jolly Coachmen," far enough away that commuting from Seattle was out of the question. They paid even better than the "Three Jolly Coachmen." But—they wouldn't pay my expenses, which would have eaten up most of what they'd have paid me for singing there. So I had to turn the job down.

I've had many people ask me to sing at many places, telling me, "We can't pay you, but the exposure will be good for you." Dave Van Ronk once said that he heard that "the exposure will be good for you" thing all the time. He had an excellent response to that:    "People have been known to die of exposure!"

Folk music notwithstanding, a person who has put in the time, work, study, and expense to become a singer that people want to listen to deserves to be compensated for his or her services, in the same way that a doctor, a teacher, or a plumber deserve to be paid for their services.

That's the way the world works, Conrad. If you want to get into the game, one way or another, you've got to ante into the pot.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 12:28 PM

I was involved with such a group but then later found that those in attendance are carefully vetted and must be of the same political and philosophical mindset.

There are two sides to every story..

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 10:21 AM

This is on locally over the weekend:

Local & Live

It's free but it certainly costs to put on, hence the sponsorship and merchandising.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 10:02 AM

Peasant: Folk musicians gathering in kitchens and homes and pubs tend to want to play with each other and not with or for ordinary folk. I was involved with such a group but then later found that those in attendance are carefully vetted and must be of the same political and philosophical mindset.

Well I've now attended singarounds/ sessions in about 6 different pubs. No-one's ever vetted me, tried to ascertain my political or philosophical attitudes or restricted in any way what I play or sing. All of them are open to people who just want to come and listen. I don't know what kind of group you were "involved" with but it doesn't sound remotely similar to the casual events I attend.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 09:37 AM

Bobert - that, to my way of thinking, is what sessions are for. I run a local session and, while it's great to have experienced musicians turn up and join in, we always welcome new or inexperienced players with open arms. Everybody learns from the experience.

There are, of course, sessions where the experienced musicians who participate don't want inexperienced beginners there to the possible detriment of the music. They're not my kind of sessions.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 09:24 AM

I think the differnce here between Conrad and others is in expertise of the musicans... Most folks who have spent a life time learning their tradw don't wnat to just go off and play i some park for free because it might be fun... or cool...

But on the other end of the sprectrum are lotta folks who really aren't all that experienced (or good, in some cases) who would be delighted to get together with others and play in a festive atmosphere...

Kinda two different groups and neither is right or wrong... Hey, the inexperianced need a little performance time to learne what it's like to perform and to hone their stage skills, which BTW go well beyond just hitting the right chords and notes...

Plus, experience players that I know have been performing for several decades and the novelty has worn off and for them to load their gear, spend money on gas and food, etc. just to be part of this Free Music thing just isn't all that attractive...

B~

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 09:10 AM

There's no such thing as a free lunch - nor free music either. The cost comes in the thousands of hours of ;earning and practice.... :-P

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 08:51 AM

The point about "free concerts" such as those in Hyde Park is that someone had to pay for them, even if it wasn't the audience. The motives were partly altruistic but they were also a massive marketing exercise for the bands involved. See this link

The people involved had already made the money from more conventional music promotion, and chose to spend it in this way. Good for them. However they needed to have the money in the first place.

Conrad, the problem with your suggestion is not the bit about making it free for the audience, but the suggestion that it can be done for no cost.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 07:30 AM

Fun music whatever-all higher values than gathering money.

If not enough money is involved then why involve money which makes anything more complex than necessary and more expensive

Nothing wrong with the professional musician but IMHO they are the extras rather than the foundation or core.

With free folk the market for the professionals will expand as the demand expands- folk music is habit forming and professionals will eventually find lots more in the food chain if the experiences become accessible to all

Unfortunately inside groups of folkies do strictly enforce their political and lifestyle paradigms. Been there done that.

Unfortunately in my region we only have music at the most expensive places and they are few. For some reason folkies like to waste their money on way way overpriced bier.

The trouble is that if something is free it still has value. We should not let capitalism restrict our work.

conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 03:50 AM

the primary purpose for gatherings relating to music is the perpetuation of the music

Well, I would say that the primary purpose for gatherings relating to music is to have fun, not to bolster a sociological principle. And to say that sessions in pubs don't count is sheer nonsense.

I was also a musician in London in the 1960s and, as with Don Firth above, we musicians gravitated to places where good music was to be heard - and it was rarely in the spontaneous, sitting-around-in-open-spaces setting you describe (and I lived in Bayswater, very close to Kensington Gardens and Hyde Park). It was in clubs like the Cousins, the Troubadour, Bunjies, the Marquee, Klooks Kleek, and in pubs like the Scots Hoose, the Half Moon and so on.

There were, of course, hugely popular free concerts in Hyde Park - concerts which cost absolutely nothing for the listeners - and I went to the first 2 or 3 of those. The first one (1969 I think) featured Fairport Convention, Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac, The Family, Ten Years After, Roy Harper, etc., and was an amazing experience. But it wasn't spontaneous - it was very carefully organised, with superb musicians playing for nothing. And it wasn't to "perpetuate the music" - it was sheer, unalloyed fun.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 03:05 AM

No one is "robbed" to enter a festival. It's a free transaction - if they don't feel the entry charge is value for money they don't have to go in. If they can't afford it, here in the UK at least there are plenty of opportunities to hear folk music for free - just go to any pub where there is a singaround or tune session. Of course, you might have to buy a pint, but you don't like paying for beer either, do you?

If CDs cost more at a festival than outside, then don't buy them.

Having a "place to play out back, in front parlor, then downstairs" is not a festival as I understand it. Events like that needn't cost a lot to organise. Even so, there are expenses involved which you seem to ignore. Even if you are only offering the musicians food, that has to be paid for. If the food is brought by visitors, doesn't that constitute a sort of entry fee, so it's not actually free?

You'll still need a licence from the performing rights societies, and in the UK you'll need an event licence. That may require you to incur costs for security, preventing noise and nuisance.

You should have insurance, in case someone gets injured and sues you.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 03:03 AM

"Folk musicians gathering in kitchens and homes and pubs tend to want to play with each other and not with or for ordinary folk."

In what way are people who choose to gather to sing and play together in public places not "ordinary folk"? Anyone who takes the time to learn a song or tune and sing / play it in public is "ordinary folk", be they an amateur hobbyist or a semi-pro who *also* does paid gigs. There is often a phrase attached to social song sessions in the UK: "come all ye" and that means you, me, bob, mary and anyone else who wants to participate or indeed just listen.

It seems you have a fixed idea of a Sixties hippy-style free-music festival and want to wedge folk music into that fixed idea.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Allan Con
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 02:05 AM

"Folk musicians gathering in kitchens and homes and pubs tend to want to play with each other and not with or for ordinary folk.......etc etc"

Just because you had a bad experience surely you can't take a general sweep at all such gatherings! As well as playing in local pubs which has unrestricted and free attendance for all performers and listeners alike, we do also play in each other's houses and just as often half the people there are our more regular listeners as well as performers. I have never heard anyone being vetted over their political beliefs, social standing or whatever else.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 01:40 AM

I'm sorry, Conrad, but you're living in a dream world.

"We have to remember is that the primary purpose for gatherings relating to music is the perpetuation of the music not the support of professional musicians."

There are some musicians singing and playing folk music who have made it their life's work. If it were not for the fact that they get paid enough to make a living at it, they would have to turn to other pursuits to earn their livelihoods, and this would severely curtail their time and availability to make music for those people who are sufficiently interested in the music to be willing to pay a nominal amount to hear them.

In 1952, I attended a concert in a restaurant in the University District in Seattle. The concert was sung by Walt Robertson, who, at the time, had a television show on KING-TV in Seattle, and who had a Folkways record about to be issued. Walt, originally from the Seattle area, had first become interested in folk music while he was attending Haverford College in Pennsylvania and went to a couple of folk festivals at nearby Swarthmore College. There, he heard and met people like the Lomaxes and heard singers like Pete Seeger, Leadbelly, Josh White, John Jacob Niles, and many, many others.
        
When I heard Walt sing for nearly three hours that evening at The Chalet restaurant, I was completely enthralled by the songs he was singing:   work songs, love songs, sea songs, ballads, most of which I had never heard before. At the end of the evening, I said to myself, "I want to do that! To learn songs like those and sing them for people the way Walt Robertson just did." And hold them as spellbound as Walt had held me and the rest of the audience there that evening.

I believe the price of admission was something like a dollar. Negligible these days, but for a college student back in the early Fifties who had to count his pennies. . . .

But that was a very small price to pay for what I received that evening.

I knew practically nothing about music, and to do what I wanted to do, I had to learn. So I took classic guitar lessons (to learn how to play the guitar using my right hand fingers the way Walt did) and I took singing lessons to gain some control over my voice and try to bring out the best in it. As I learned, I realized that I really need to know something about music theory, so that I would know such basic things as what chords to play to accompany my singing. I could have worked by trial and error, and perhaps eventually learn what I wanted to learn, but I decided to do it the quickest and most efficient way. Voice lessons, guitar lessons, three years in the University of Washington School of Music and two years at the Cornish School of the Arts, along with private lessons in arranging with Mildred Hunt Harris and studying the English and Scottish Popular Ballads with Professor David C. Fowler in the U. of W. English Literature department.

I PAID for my lessons. And I paid tuition at the U. of W. and at Cornish. Not cheap!!

I sang here and there for free. Parties, informal gatherings (which we called "hoots" back before the word got preempted by the ABC network in 1963), and at such places as nursing homes and school classes. But once enough people had heard me perform, they began hiring me. And then I got the offer of a television series, and that opened the door for many other singing jobs. I have managed to make a halfway decent living at it. But I didn't get rich.

Along with sustaining myself, I have participated in many folk festivals, singing and taking part in workshops—for no pay. And, I might add, there was no attendance fee for the festivals. I have also sung benefits at retirement homes, for charitable organizations, and for various service organizations. Many of these engagements involve travel and on–the-road living expenses, most of which I am not compensated for and have to cover myself.

And after all this work and all this expense, YOU want me to give the fruits of all of this to you for NOTHING?

In the meantime, what am I supposed to live on? Are you going to provide me with food and lodging and the other necessities of life?

This is my profession, Conrad.

And I am not the only one. Most singers of folk songs who are at least halfway decent performers as well as hobbyists, whether they regard themselves as professionals or do it purely for their own enjoyment, have put in as much work as I have. They may not have all taken the same route that I took, but they most certainly put in the time, effort, sweat, and dedication to learn to do what they do. They give VALUE.

And just because it's folk music, that does not change the matter. If you think that people (such as you) should not have to pay to listen to professional performers of this material because it's folk music—"do-it-yourself music"—then I have a suggestion for you:

Do it yourself!

Time for a reality check, Conrad.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 12:33 AM

I can't really comment on how things are in the U.S., but the U.K. folk scene certainly isn't dominated by professionals, more's the pity. - I'd say the majority of performing participants lose money by doing so, and that includes the lower end of those who actually get paid. There is open access to a significant proportion of gatherings, but because (in part) of the lack of professional quality they tend not to attract many new faces. Besides which, if you give something away for free, most people will think it is worthless.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 11:47 PM

Disagree-

Supporting professional musician dominance of folk venues is unsustainable and sterile. It raises costs and costs keep people out so the crowds become elitist and inbred or simply die off.

Why only reach some of the people?

I did not say that musicians should not be fed! Musicians that attend my events eat very well and even take home food.

The most effective growth of the music both in transmission and the creation of new material, evolution requires open access.
Not rocket science.

The task is to build a community not to pick pockets. When the community grows demand for professional services- weddings, wakes, lifespan celebrations, special events will also grow dramatically.

What is really annoying about festivals is that they do not provide goods and services at bargain prices to those who have already been robbed to get in the gate but everything is often more expensive than outside. How can a person with a family buy cds when they first have to pay for admission, then food.....

I attend many events each year. I have given up selling my books as people have no money left. I do very well however by distributing order forms- which do come in eventually

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 10:58 PM

the primary purpose for gatherings relating to music is the perpetuation of the music not the support of professional musicians

Only if you're a punter wanting something for nothing and not a professional musician with a food habit.

The primary purpose is symbiosis, and it works quite well as it is, and has done for a very long time. The 'free music' movement drivel of the 60s was unsustainable tripe then, and still is.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 10:34 PM

We have to remember is that the primary purpose for gatherings relating to music is the perpetuation of the music not the support of professional musicians.

When we free the music at events then the demand for music as in the open mic example will grow dramatically and more employment opportunities should open up.

I am skeptical about zoning restrictions. For a while there was a health regulations scare that closed down lots of church dinners and other group events but then it was realized that laws did not apply to non profit activities or informal activities.

So there is a lot of "it must be illegal" worry.

Lots of difficulties are overcome if you just do without money.

So it can be done on a barter basis.

I have had wonderful experiences watching high school and college students discovering folk music at my events for the first time.
Trying something new is best done when there is no cost of admission.

As with the 60s generation these folks grow up and become doctors and lawyers who now pay top dollar and huge beer prices for the same music that they encountered free and open in the 60s.

Sometimes the simple things, just coming together, even if you have to pee on a tree, are the most important. Thinking outside the box is required.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 10:05 PM

What Conrad is describing is something that I remember from the 60s... It'd take someone with some farm land, a makeshift stage which was frequesntly a flatbed trailer, a generator and 3 or 4 bands who were willing to "split the bucket", meaning that some folks would mingle with plastic buckets and folks would throw ina buck or two... They were a hoot... Everyone had a good time... Very informal...

Today??? At least in the US of A, there aren't too many places that can happen because of permits, zoning, noise ordinances, event insurance, etc...

Wish it weren't like that but things, at least for folk music, are back to the open mics that have also been around for a long. long time... No pay, tho, at open mics but some clubs use their open mic nights book folks for later engagements whetre folks will get paid...

B~

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 09:48 PM

I have two events with music each year totally free open to all. Yes we do it. Easy! Both are growing each year. Musicians just turn up all share food and drink. Easy. I have place to play out back, in front parlor, then downstairs and potentially one more out front may develop this year.

I also ran a virtual tin whistle folk festival all organized on line once- totally free totally self help.

When you think what you know you dont need your views changed.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Leadfingers
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 09:44 PM

Conrad has his beliefs and we wont change them - A waste of time and energy to try ! I wonder how long he would last if he tried to run a Free Folk event even in his own back yard !

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 09:13 PM

To respond to those citing the small gatherings of musicians in homes pubs etc I would suggest that these are not really public.

House concerts are not really casual but highly contrived alternative money making schemes. Never go to one just thinking it is a casual ordinary music opportunity- they will want money.

Folk musicians gathering in kitchens and homes and pubs tend to want to play with each other and not with or for ordinary folk. I was involved with such a group but then later found that those in attendance are carefully vetted and must be of the same political and philosophical mindset.When will I ever learn that if I want to sit down and simply learn to sing and play with others that I must give up my freedom of speech.

For that they like human jukeboxes cite need for cash.

I think I have been forever influenced by my 60s experiences in London and 70s experiences in Munich where one literally stumbled over people playing almost everywhere, parks, street corners playing sometimes for tips often not for anything at all.

I think that free folk music is something that can be achieved. Events can be as big as the huge convention styled ones where only the well off can afford to partake. We need to make them happen.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 07:03 PM

still dont see the problem with having it happen

cost of event causes high prices which keeps people who dont have money out something that should not happen

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Stringsinger
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 10:51 AM

Here where I live, there are small enclaves getting together and making music for themselves. Some are pro, semi-pro and others amateur musicians. I think that this is the way folk music has always been generated. The idea of a singer/songwriter playing a guitar in a coffee house as a folk singer is a recent development and marketing ploy.

I don't think that the large numbers of people figures here. Usually in small circles,
there were players and listeners. Today with the exorbitant price of musical instruments,
I don't think you can talk about the lack of expensive "frills". To get a decent instrument because of the demand the price is too much. It's not right to expect a trained musician to play on a cigar box.

The problem with organizing a "free" jam session or concert is that you get into hierarchical problems and power moves. It's OK if it serves the public by giving them
something musical of value, but so often this turns into political jockeying and the enforcement of an individual leader's taste on the public. This is why this type of
"session" should take place on a local level with small groups of interested people.

Here, we have an Old-Time community, a Bluegrass community, a Jazz jam commnity and a singer/songwriter community. There well may be a Blues community but if so, it doesn't overlap outside of the African-American scene. The communities don't overlap much. But they are vital and alive.

I am not conversant with the scene in the UK but my hunch is that it is quite different in that the unaccompanied traditional ballad style of singing is prevalent and has a following. It's not here, for most of the States with perhaps the exception of Portland/Seattle area and Northeastern US around Boston, Cambridge or parts of New York.

The Rousseauian idea of returning to the "simple life" of the "noble savage" has permeated the thinking of many in the folk scene and it doesn't have too much application today in a society that is struggling for economic subsistence and and wading
through a technological maze. The viewpoint of the "noble savage" becomes an affectation for those well-heeled enough to support it. I suspect that many who are
underprivileged in the States would prefer hip-hop, rap or rock sessions. This has
a lot to do with musical education being downsized in the US public school system.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 10:25 AM

For centuries the folk world did without all the expensive frills and produced great music and musical experiences for large numbers of people.

What on earth are you talking about? When and where were these great musical experiences - and how many people were there. Documentation? Evidence? Historical sources? What was the "folk world", say, three centuries ago?

Mmm?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 10:08 AM

No, it provided great music and musical experiences for small groups of people. The idea of a "folk festival" is a modern concept. People made music in their own communities, in their houses and pubs.

All that still goes on, and it is mostly free or very low cost. What you are proposing is something completely different.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Ed.
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 09:17 AM

Walking up to the railway station with a chorus from the local youth of 'You fat Bastard' is folk music.

You may not like that definition, but that's not the music's fault....

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 09:08 AM

For centuries the folk world did without all the expensive frills and produced great music and musical experiences for large numbers of people.

Same can happen now.

When you add expense you drive up costs and that limits participation.
How can anyone justify limiting attendence in any way?

Nothing wrong with keeping things simple except for some it is a new idea.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 04:18 AM

Crow Sister, I'm referring to Bradfield Traditional Music Weekend, held up in the hills above Sheffield. Traditional song and music sessions, a ceilidh and usually a couple of talks.

The next one is 15-17 July 2011. It will probably be announced here.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 03:58 AM

"Yes small scale good start just expand it."

Why would they want to expand it? In fact I'm pretty certain they don't and indeed never will want too. It works tickety boo exactly how it is.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 03:55 AM

Hey, I reckon we should abandon the cars for travelling to the field too. Only people walking on foot should go, petrol is expensive.

You can't have a thousand or even a hundred people shitting in the same field all week Conrad! even if they all dug holes and buried it (I got this exact same brilliant wee fold-up trowel from the pound shop - for a pound - btw: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Steel-Trowel-Camping-Shovel-Pouch/dp/B002HSC8NK)