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BS: The God Delusion 2010
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: Paul Burke Date: 10 Sep 10 - 01:57 PM Ooh! 800! Eat your hat out, Leadfingers! you cannot make reproducible experiments in fields such as Economics, Sociology, Anthropology, even to some parts of psychology and biology 'Tis true. Particularly with economics and sociology, which is why their findings are taken with a fair dose of caution by the experienced. Another lot of gobshiters are those "evolutionary psychologists" who propose a gene and an evolutionary just-so story for every nuance of behaviour. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: Steve Shaw Date: 10 Sep 10 - 02:18 PM "People get their prayers answered every day." I defy you to offer any evidence at all that anyone has ever had a prayer answered. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: Bill D Date: 10 Sep 10 - 02:41 PM "I defy you to offer any evidence at all that anyone has ever had a prayer answered." Why, Steve! Several years ago, hurricane Isabel was threatening the East coast of the US, and in particular the area near Virgina Beach where Pat Robertson lives. He implored his followers to go out and 'pray' that it change course and, I guess, go hit someone less 'faithful'. I guess it worked, because *I* lost power for 5 days, and Pat & his gang were hardly bothered. ...silly, you say? Well, not to Pat! They took it as a sign... *wry smile* |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: Amos Date: 10 Sep 10 - 03:12 PM It is the glue that holds successful societies together. This is a far-fetched conclusion. A structure of agreements as to what constitutes right action and acceptable social conduct holds societies together. This code may be embedded in an iconography of deities, or it may be slapped into childrens' heads as "the way we do things". It my be attributed to ancestors, angels, bogeymen or innate honor. What makes such a code work has nothing to do with whether it is includes religious symbols or icons, but whether it works among humans. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: Mrrzy Date: 10 Sep 10 - 03:54 PM Well, how about the glue that allows societies to become too unwieldy to hold together successfully? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: Ebbie Date: 10 Sep 10 - 05:28 PM "I do NOT believe I will have any residual 'consciousness' after death, and have noted many times that my big frustration is that, IF I am right, I don't get to say "I told you so!". Bill D And if you're wrong, Bill, I expect you to say, Well, Hi, Ebbie! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: Amos Date: 10 Sep 10 - 05:40 PM The day Bil finds hisself floating thirty feet out noticing all his friends weeping for his mortal shell, he'll be downright surprised, I reckon. Just be sure and stay awake for it, Bill. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: Bill D Date: 10 Sep 10 - 05:46 PM I will say "Imagine that, Ebbie!"1...and I will eagerly await instruction from Amos on how to "stay awake for it". 1(actually, I have no idea what I would say, or if anyone 'says' anything in such circumstances.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: Amos Date: 10 Sep 10 - 06:11 PM You will find yourself able to intend a lot, but "saying" aside from that telepathic mode will be a bit frustrating. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: Bill D Date: 10 Sep 10 - 06:17 PM "You will find yourself able..." I am glad to receive such authoritative assurance. We will have to wait & see, hmmmm? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Date: 10 Sep 10 - 06:23 PM If we made it the concern of our spirituality to consider the subjective needs & experiences of others, I reckon we'd be done with religion within the week. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: Paul Burke Date: 10 Sep 10 - 06:43 PM And if you're wrong, Bill, I expect you to say, Well, Hi, Ebbie! As I said to my mother when she was dying, if you're right, you'll be fine, and if you're wrong you won't notice the difference. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: GUEST,josep Date: 10 Sep 10 - 07:41 PM //Brain injury can rob one of the ability to remember recent events. I have a musician friend who, following an aneurysm some years ago, has very little 'recent' memory, even things that happened 15 minutes before. For instance, the other evening someone asked how he had gotten to the jam. He answered, I'm not sure. Maybe Bobi? (His wife). I told him that he was right, and added, Who was in the backseat?// We're not going to permit brain damage to enter to into the conversation because it is nothing more than a distraction. Maybe later but not now. We need to focus on simply what it means to be conscious in an ordinary, normal manner. Again, I say to meet that criterion one must experience events and, as a consequence, recall that event. This is something the vast majority of us can do without a problem. We simply can't be certain what goes on in the head of a brain-damaged person and so it is useless to speculate. As I said, there are degrees consciousness and unconsciousness but we're not going to mess with every degree. We must establish full consciousness and full unconsciousness first and foremost. So let's establish a base to work from and then we'll test it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: GUEST,josep Date: 10 Sep 10 - 07:58 PM //Who are 'most people'? Shiva for example IS described as Universal Consciousness or Mind within which matter lies dormant. Matter or 'Shakti' is a subset of Mind, a material manifestation of Universal Consciousness. Not too far off what Lox was suggesting really. Not all concepts of God feature a grumpy old geezer in the sky, some are a little more elegant.// I used to believe that Hindus thought this way and I was set straight in a hurry when several furious Hindus informed me that Shiva is a god and not a metaphor for anything, Krishna is historically real, the Battle of Kureksetra actually happened. I was quite surprised at the time but no longer. I've traveled around the world and spoken with many people of different religions both in person and online and there is no doubt in my mind: The vast majority of people believe in a theistic, personal god. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: GUEST,josep Date: 10 Sep 10 - 08:09 PM //"Someone offer me an argument that death extinguishes consciousness." This is something that can neither be proved or disproved by science as it concerns Metaphysics and not physics.// Oh, it certainly can be proven. I intend to do just that on this very thread. It won't be empirically proven, true enough, but I will prove it is completely logical and death extinguishing consciousness is not. //From a scientists perspective, there is as much probability that consciousness continues after death as there is that God exists. In scientific terms = 0// Here we go with the straw men. That is a total presumption on your part as there are a great many scientists who believe in continuance after death. Indeed there are scientists that are born-again Christians. Science, in fact, simply suspends judgment on these matters. //Any discussion about what exists outside the observable world is philosphy.// Which is why science suspends judgment. Individual scientists may dismiss it as poppycock but many do not. //On the subject of consciousness, this is not the ability to experience or remember, but is the thing that actually does the experiencing or remembering.// That's a mere quibble as I intend to show. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: GUEST,josep Date: 10 Sep 10 - 08:55 PM Moving along--since I have experiences, I am conscious. Or we can make Lox happy by saying that I am consciousness personified--makes no difference although it possesses a certain elegance. If I recall an event, I was conscious at that event. If I was unconscious of that event then I do not and cannot recall it. If I do not recall an event, nothing concerning the state of my consciousness can be deduced. After all, I may eventually recall something. The 2nd and 3rd statements are not contradictory. There is a difference between not recalling a concert because I was passed out and missed it and not recalling it because it occurred so very long ago. In this 2nd case, the state of my consciousness at the time cannot be known--was I passed out or will a memory suddenly jump out someday? However, I was conscious of any event I recall. As for experiences, they can only occur in the present moment and not in the past or future. In other words, it is always now. This is important to keep in mind because one of you is going to say, "What if you remember the concert 10 years from now but it never really happened? Then you really weren't conscious." My response is, it makes no difference at all. What matters is that I observe that I have a memories of this concert even if they are phantoms of an event that never took place. This is important because it separates absolute truth from apparent truth. Maybe my memory of the concert is hazy or even false even if I believe it to be true but what is undeniable is that I have such a memory. But that's not empirical, you say and I say, so what? The point is that I am conscious, not that I have a good memory. Because it is always now, I am never unconscious. Why? Because if I was, how would I know? We can't experience unconsciousness. Total unconsciousness is missing time because if you were aware of the passage of time, you are conscious of something. Since it is always now, I cannot have awareness of total unconsciousness or I would be conscious--contradiction. Hence, I am always conscious. That is, my experiences only happen in the present moment. You can prove this to yourself. Recall a time when you were aware of absolutely nothing not even the passage of time. You can't. To your consciousness, your life has been a continuous, never-ending waking moment. Ok, let's pause here for any questions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: Paul Burke Date: 10 Sep 10 - 09:23 PM That is, my experiences only happen in the present moment. Josep- not so. All your (and my) experiences happen in the past. You can't even say you've experienced something until afterwards, but apart from tautologies, it's an experimentally measured fact. What's more, you continuously recreate experiences every time you remember them. On an individual level, I remember my brother drowning. It must have been over 45 years ago, but the memory is still vivid. We celebrated his 60th birthday last weekend, with a really great ceilidh and sessions and walks. He was there. How so? It was a dream- but it's also a memory. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: Donuel Date: 10 Sep 10 - 09:31 PM As a hypnotist who participated in past memory/life regression sessions I can offer only my opinion. I think it is all wishful thinking. That being said there are curious stories about children who claim to have a detailed experience that some claim is evidence of a deceased person in history. There are many explainations to account for these claims than just reincarnation or soul transferrence. We may know children who seem to be old souls since they seem to have a level of sophistication that belies their years. We may be underestimating childhood consciousness or merely making a compariosn to other children who express less inate intelligence. My wishful thinking opinion will naturally skew my perception of regressive hypnosis sessions that come claim as proof of a anachronistic consciousness. It is not proof but an opinion. Giving extra attention to a child who behaves in a certain way is reinforcing of that behavior. It is also likely that an adult or parent have more to do with the unusual "phenomenon" than they will ever admit. Consider "baloon boy". |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: Donuel Date: 10 Sep 10 - 10:14 PM Recall a time when you were aware of absolutely nothing not even the passage of time. You can't. Yes I can and I have. Deep Somnambulism is funny that way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: Jack the Sailor Date: 10 Sep 10 - 10:52 PM >>>This is a far-fetched conclusion. A structure of agreements as to what constitutes right action and acceptable social conduct holds societies together. This code may be embedded in an iconography of deities, or it may be slapped into childrens' heads as "the way we do things". It my be attributed to ancestors, angels, bogeymen or innate honor. What makes such a code work has nothing to do with whether it is includes religious symbols or icons, but whether it works among humans.<< Far fetched Amos? Name me a successful society that has done this without religion. If you name our society and called this fragmented, combative greedy destructive path to Armagedon we are on, successful, I will laugh out loud. Theoretically, "the way we do things" can be "slapped into children's head" without religion. But you would have to show it working on a scale of more than a few thousand people at a time for me to think it is workable on the scale of whole societies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: GUEST,josep Date: 10 Sep 10 - 11:29 PM //Josep- not so. All your (and my) experiences happen in the past.// Experiences are present moment only. You can't experience what has already taken place. You may have experienced it when it happened but now that it is over, you cannot possibly still be experiencing it--it's over. //You can't even say you've experienced something until afterwards, but apart from tautologies, it's an experimentally measured fact. What's more, you continuously recreate experiences every time you remember them.// You never experience something until afterwards. You can only experience an event X as it happens. You reflect on it afterwards. Reflection is an experience of its own but is not an experience of X because that event has already occurred or you couldn't be reflecting on it. And you can't reflect on X if you didn't experience X. //On an individual level, I remember my brother drowning. It must have been over 45 years ago, but the memory is still vivid./// That's a memory, that's not an experience. Experiencing is inextricably tied to an event as it unfolds. Since that event is now in the past you simply cannot be experiencing it. You're simply remembering it. We're talking experience as a verb not a noun. //We celebrated his 60th birthday last weekend, with a really great ceilidh and sessions and walks. He was there. How so? It was a dream-but it's also a memory.// Right. A memory. Not an experience. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: GUEST,josep Date: 10 Sep 10 - 11:40 PM //"Recall a time when you were aware of absolutely nothing not even the passage of time. You can't." Yes I can and I have. Deep Somnambulism is funny that way.// If you remember anything about this state then you were not totally unconscious. Common sense. If you experienced nothing not even time passing during a certain period then you cannot remember anything about it because you were not conscious--you were having no experiences during that time to reflect on. If there is something you can reflect on during that period then you were conscious to some degree. We are only interested in complete unconsciousness right now. We'll be dealing with degrees of consciousness later where I will demonstrate that they make no difference. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: GUEST,josep Date: 10 Sep 10 - 11:56 PM To demonstrate an example of missing time, I went to a bar in Canada with a friend in the early 90s, we're both from Michigan. I just got out of the service and I did something I should never do and mixed beers which really messes me up for some reason. After downing several Canadian Bradors after drinking Millers before crossing into Canada, I was piss drunk coming back to Michigan. Fortunately, my buddy was driving. The border guard asked us what citizenship we were. My buddy answered, I did not. The guard then asked me directly what my citizenship was. "Peoria!" I blurted and then broke into hysterical laughter. "PEORIA!!" I bellowed, laughing. Somehow, the guard let us pass. Why did I behave that way? I don't know because I have no memory of it whatsoever. I only know about it because my buddy told me about the next day as I nursed a murderous hangover. I remember leaving the bar. I remember being on the freeway just before tossing my cookies out the window. So how much time elapsed between those two events? For me, none. Everything in between is a total blank. Until I can recall something, nothing can be said of the state of my consciousness but we are free assume for now that I was not conscious or I would have a memory of the event and I have none whatsoever. It is missing time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: Mrrzy Date: 11 Sep 10 - 01:32 AM There is no rule that says you have to be forming memories to be conscious, is there? I mean, you can form memories in your sleep, so why not not form memories when you're awake? (Anybody remember the logic of the Gollux?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: GUEST,Tunesmith Date: 11 Sep 10 - 02:59 AM He's a point I'd like clarifying. Do Christians believe that animals (i.e. non-humans) have an afterlife? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: Joe Offer Date: 11 Sep 10 - 03:49 AM There are mixed opinions on that, Tunesmith. All we know for sure is that with regards to dogs, they go where the good doggies go. After all, it says so in "Old Shep." I tend to think that every sentient being has an afterlife of some sort, but I have no idea what that afterlife will be. I like to believe it will be a better place. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Sep 10 - 06:06 AM Better for us to make this place the best place rather than wait for another one to turn up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: mauvepink Date: 11 Sep 10 - 06:47 AM Tunesmith: The Bible says "Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them." and "Isaiah 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD." I believe it is talking about the earth after Jesus returns. If I were Christian I would take it to show a sign that animals are indeed valued and may possibly have a soul of some sort. I remember teaching some children one day in a Catholic school. It was the first time I had given my talk in a faith school and one child asked me... "Do you think that there will be animals in heaven?". My reply was that I certainly would hope so and that the bible's message is that predator will sit with preay. I also said I am not sure I would want to live in a heaven if there were no animals. He was happy enough with the answer at his young age of 6. Thinking I would get shouted at by the attendant Nun she came to me at the end and said quietly "You handled that so well. It was a ice way to think of it^ In short I have no idea Tunesmith. I think many religions think we are above the animals and that they do not have souls. Anyone who owned a dog may think otherwise.... I would like to think they do. I have seen animals showing soul where there has been none shown by the human. It makes you wonder. My answer is the same as I gave that young boy that day mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Date: 11 Sep 10 - 07:01 AM I like to believe it will be a better place. I can't conceive of a worse way to spend eternity than with the righteous & religious; with those who have dreamed their lives away giving sycophantic praise to a vengeful God in hope of the rewards of a supernatural hereafter. Sounds pretty hellish to me! Right now, sitting here listening to On The Corner, I feel a more meaningful human heaven (or hell) is right here & right now... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: mauvepink Date: 11 Sep 10 - 07:10 AM "I can't conceive of a worse way to spend eternity than with the righteous & religious; with those who have dreamed their lives away giving sycophantic praise to a vengeful God in hope of the rewards of a supernatural hereafter" Not all people who believe in God are sycophantic or looking for some reward. They live that life in faith. They should be allowed to do so. Many know they are not righteous but strive to be so. Many non believers do the same too. But, as you bring up conceiving of eternity you have given it some thought.. how do YOU see it being then? :-) mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: Lox Date: 11 Sep 10 - 07:34 AM "All your (and my) experiences happen in the past." I recommend Miroslav Holubs essay "The Dimension of the present moment" in which he pretty conclusively shows (scientifically) that the present moment isn't just an infinitesimally small and transitory point in time, but in fact is a chunk of time that lasts approximately 3 seconds. It will blow your mind. "And if you're wrong, Bill, I expect you to say, Well, Hi, Ebbie!" I wonder - when we do do we go to the mudcat cafe? And is that if we've been good or bad? "Here we go with the straw men. That is a total presumption on your part as there are a great many scientists who believe in continuance after death." Where did I say anything about what scientists do or don't believe? I didn't. I said " //From a scientists perspective, there is as much probability that consciousness continues after death as there is that God exists. In scientific terms = 0//" The scientific probability of God or the afterlife existing and the details of what scientists do or don't believe are different things. So you have attributed a straw man to me that I never created. I wonder what the term is for that? A double Straw man? A reflexive Straw man? Perhaps Josep isn't entirely clear about what a straw man is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: Stu Date: 11 Sep 10 - 07:39 AM I'm hoping for Valhalla with lashings of good ale, songs and stories in the halls of my fathers (or, as my mum's Welsh, in the halls of Tir Na Nog which I know is Irish but there you go). |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: mauvepink Date: 11 Sep 10 - 07:52 AM OMG Sugarfoot Jack! That place with all the men with pointy metal hats with horns on (though I believe vikings never actually wore horn), where women get dragged across tables and have kisses forced upon them by bearded beer drinkers (well, that's what it looked like Kirk Douglas was a Viking and his dad, Earnest Borgnine)? We women will need a safer haven methinks ;-) mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: Lox Date: 11 Sep 10 - 08:04 AM Sugarfoot Jack, I suspect you might yet have to do a bit of pillaging and raping if you hope to be admitted into Valhalla. The Valkyries can be pretty picky and without a lot of blood on your sword they'd be unlikely to give you a lift ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Date: 11 Sep 10 - 08:05 AM But, as you bring up conceiving of eternity you have given it some thought.. how do YOU see it being then? As a total materialist, & in the knowledge that matter can't be created or destroyed, I'll be happy to rejoin the cosmos via the flames of cremation and partake in the wonders of it all, albeit without consciousness or any subtive sense of ME which is a consequence of being human. Dust thou art and dust thou will return! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: Bill D Date: 11 Sep 10 - 12:06 PM "I tend to think that every sentient being has an afterlife of some sort, but I have no idea what that afterlife will be.." It's interesting...once you 'decide' to think that way, you are implicitly open to questions such as "how far down do consider 'beings' to be sentient?" Are mice? Cockroaches? Were dinosaurs in their time? Does this mean they have 'souls'?...or just 'essences' which survive. And were those souls or 'essences' there before the physical being? That is, is there an infinite pool of mouse 'souls' just waiting for mice to be born? And after the mice (or men) die, does their essence/soul rejoin the pool? Did we have souls BEFORE we had a theology to categorize the relationship OF souls, both in 'that metaphysical place' and as manifested in a body? What WAS the status of 'morality' in our ancestors 10,000 years ago? Or 50,000 years ago...before we had books of instructions? Was killing immoral then? If not, when did it become so? .....and dozens more. Silly Bill D?? Thinking up all those irrelevant questions just to confuse us? Sorry, but **IF** you 'believe' there is some sort of afterlife and something about yourself, and perhaps your dogm that 'may' get to go there, you ARE subject to all those questions, and more--whether you choose to dwell on them or not. And that IS my point... accepting certain premises leaves you in a linguistic Limbo...even if you pretend not to notice. This sort of a corollary to my oft repeated mantra: "From false premises, anything follows." That is, IF any of your assumptions are incorrect, you can derive almost anything from them...including a theory that cockroaches have something like souls and it would be a sin to squash one! Even sillier? Nope...read about Jainism. Or just ask certain Vegans why they worry about their diet. (I knew a woman who fretted about whether an egg has been fertilized before she ate it.) At least she tried to take her belief to its logical conclusion...even when her friends kept pointing out awkward points. (She had raoches in her house, but she would not stomp them or spray them...but she was seen scooping them up in a cloth and throwing them out in the snow. When it was pointed out they would die out there, she puffed up and declared, "I just want them out of my house...what God does with them after that is not my concern!" So...once you decide that Fido gets an afterlife....or that YOU do, you gotta consider the implications. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: bobad Date: 11 Sep 10 - 12:42 PM Well Bill, the religion in which I was indoctrinated (RC) had a standard answer to any of those awkward questions ie there are mysteries which will only be revealed to us after we die - neat, don't you think? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: Mrrzy Date: 11 Sep 10 - 12:54 PM There'll be pie in the sky when you die (that's the lie!)... a little music in the BS thread, eh? Where do those of you believe that your psychological self in any form can survive the death of your physical form, who talk of spending "eternity" in some fashion, think you were during the eternity *before* your physical self happened? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: Joe Offer Date: 11 Sep 10 - 01:06 PM Guests, please remember that you are required to use a consistent name when you post. I deleted a rather lengthy message posted at 12:44 PM by an unnamed poster. If the poster wants to retrieve the text, he/she may contact me by e-mail. -Joe Offer, Forum Moderator- joe@mudcat.org |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: Stringsinger Date: 11 Sep 10 - 01:12 PM Lions and lambs are not able to lie with one another successfully. Lions have a genetic predisposition to hunt prey. Lambs in a survival mode will have more sense than to attempt to lie down with a lion. I don't believe in the theory of the argument of ontology. Souls are manufactured entities by humans. There is no proof for the existence of a soul scientifically. Dawkins explains in "The Selfish Gene" that neurologically, a chimp is capable of more pain and suffering than a human fetus. If this is true, why is abortion wrong? Rhetorical question, answer: religion wants to create more converts. I don't think human fetuses have souls. I also think that this thread has a life of its own. There are so many questions about the validity of religion that the subject will continue. It will not be resolved in terms of agreement but I think that it is an appeal toward tolerance. It has been stated that religious people are offended because it seemed to them that they somehow were being attacked. I think that the situation today is mostly reversed. Freethinkers are attacked by religious people far more than the other way around. Richard Dawkins has not attacked anyone personally. He is pointing out the flaws in religious thinking as he sees them and not denigrating people for their beliefs. I think people have the right to believe what they want without hurting others physically or abusively. Some religious folks will be offended regardless because of their association with what religion they profess and who they are. I prefer to separate the two. A good person is a good person no matter what they profess. I think that the afterlife is a construct to make people feel psychologically comfortable about death. Whether it really does the job for people is another story. The reality is that all animals eventually die, human and otherwise. This is demonstrable. But in order to believe in an afterlife, a suspension of reality must take place. There is no evidence of an afterlife, just testimony by people who see lights and tunnels. There can be a biological explanation for this. I am not in favor of glorifying mysterious things. I find this counterproductive to appreciating the reality of what we have now. At the same time, I would not like to see anger dominate this discussion. I bear no ill will toward anyone who believes in religion. If religion is used as a weapon, however, then I feel duty-bound to point that out. A decent discussion on this topic may sometime lead to more tolerance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: Donuel Date: 11 Sep 10 - 01:24 PM The afterlife is the domain of your descendents. As for lions and lambs, diversity is celebrated by all children world wide but is demonized by some adults who worship exclusivity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: GUEST,I always fill this box in before I type a m Date: 11 Sep 10 - 01:27 PM Well, I won't type all that again, I have other things to do. If anyone is interested in carrying on the conversation in private, post your wish to do so here and along with an email address and we'll do it that way. This thread is getting too long anyway although you can cut and paste our email exchanges on the subject here if you wish. I have no objections to that. josep
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-
BS: The God Delusion 2010 //From a scientists perspective, there is as much probability that consciousness continues after death as there is that God exists. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: Ebbie Date: 11 Sep 10 - 01:53 PM I have a couple of answers/hypotheses/conclusions that work for me. * Do animals have an after life? I tend to think that everything that is capable of loving has a life beyond this one. * Where do we go and what do we do after this life? I'm beginning to have the scary feeling that our lives and worlds get more complicated and demanding the higher we go. I say 'scary' because what if I don't measure up to the next level? At this point I see little hope of it and that means I'll be back. My conclusion accounts, I think, for the belief that many people have that we have to repeat and repeat this one. * Where were we before we got here? A lower, less demanding level. (And we may have had to repeat that one as well!) Well, like I said- it works for me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: Donuel Date: 11 Sep 10 - 01:57 PM Well Ebbie your answers are all contained within a knowledge of procreation and evolution. If you demand a more spiritual answer than that then perhaps you are more of a church lady like your daughter than you care to admit. Not that there is anything wrong with that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: Bill D Date: 11 Sep 10 - 02:05 PM Yep.. whatever works for you. these folks go WAY beyond what you seem to need, though in the same general direction...(you want levels? They got levels!) but I guess it works for them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: Bill D Date: 11 Sep 10 - 02:12 PM Oh, and Ebbie..."the belief that many people have that we have to repeat and repeat this one."
That sounds very like The Wheel of Saṃsāra in Buddhism. (I still remembered that from my first comparative religion class about 1958) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: Mrrzy Date: 11 Sep 10 - 02:20 PM You don't have to - contact Joe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: romanyman Date: 11 Sep 10 - 02:22 PM I love this shit richard, its so full of crap i might go to church just for the laugh, when some one can prove to me there is a god , not just some prat saying god created this and that, no i want real hard on proof, until then. i say go shove your beliefs where the sun dont shine, not down my bloody throat, like the prats in the high street today, remember the inquisition was "gods will" |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: Smokey. Date: 11 Sep 10 - 03:15 PM You are born at T0 live 90 years and die at T1. During that period, you were conscious as we define it--you had experiences, you recalled them. Now you die. What becomes of your consciousness? It stops? T0 to T1 becomes missing time, total unconsciousness. Since you were conscious between T0 to T1--contradiction. Conclusion: death does not extinguish consciousness. Cobblers. It might, or it might not. I think it does, having seen nothing to the contrary, but certainty is currently impossible. Quantum physics has proven experimentally that consciousness collapses the wave function of a wavicle into a particle, into matter. So to hold.. (etc.) Quantum physics hasn't proven anything yet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The God Delusion 2010 From: Ebbie Date: 11 Sep 10 - 03:28 PM I don't read much theory about the afterlife, per se. My beliefs and 'hunches', as a man might call it, rather than the woman's 'intuition' tend to come more from my own observations and experiences (you needn't ask). Donuel, I have never claimed that I am free of my indoctrination as a child. I only say that I didn't teach it - overtly - to my child. |
