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BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers

Goose Gander 30 Aug 10 - 03:27 PM
katlaughing 30 Aug 10 - 03:45 PM
Goose Gander 30 Aug 10 - 03:48 PM
Amos 30 Aug 10 - 03:58 PM
katlaughing 30 Aug 10 - 04:03 PM
catspaw49 30 Aug 10 - 04:11 PM
Goose Gander 30 Aug 10 - 04:14 PM
gnu 30 Aug 10 - 04:24 PM
Don Firth 30 Aug 10 - 04:53 PM
VirginiaTam 30 Aug 10 - 05:01 PM
Bill D 30 Aug 10 - 05:05 PM
Paul Burke 30 Aug 10 - 05:12 PM
Gurney 30 Aug 10 - 05:19 PM
MGM·Lion 30 Aug 10 - 05:20 PM
Joe_F 30 Aug 10 - 06:11 PM
Bill D 30 Aug 10 - 06:36 PM
Bobert 30 Aug 10 - 06:49 PM
Bill D 30 Aug 10 - 06:52 PM
gnu 30 Aug 10 - 06:53 PM
The Fooles Troupe 31 Aug 10 - 03:09 AM
MGM·Lion 31 Aug 10 - 04:38 AM
Wesley S 31 Aug 10 - 11:44 AM
greg stephens 31 Aug 10 - 12:15 PM
Allan C. 01 Sep 10 - 06:22 AM
kendall 01 Sep 10 - 07:30 AM
Wolfgang 01 Sep 10 - 10:14 AM
Amergin 01 Sep 10 - 11:35 AM
olddude 01 Sep 10 - 11:42 AM
Bill D 01 Sep 10 - 11:50 AM
katlaughing 01 Sep 10 - 01:03 PM
dick greenhaus 01 Sep 10 - 05:36 PM
Bill D 01 Sep 10 - 05:41 PM
bobad 01 Sep 10 - 05:48 PM
Goose Gander 02 Sep 10 - 12:54 PM
Goose Gander 02 Sep 10 - 01:38 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 02 Sep 10 - 03:04 PM

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Subject: BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers
From: Goose Gander
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 03:27 PM

Heavy Drinkers Outlive Abstainers

I ask you, is there anything else you need to know?


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Subject: RE: BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 03:45 PM

Oh, good grief, what's next. Seems they can find a reason to justify almost anything to excess these days. I note the MODERATE drinkers lasted longer than the heavy ones and the participants were almost all men which is typical of a lot of medical studies. They still aren't sure what the real symptoms of a heart attack are for women.


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Subject: RE: BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers
From: Goose Gander
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 03:48 PM

Well, I'm glad you can sleep nights. Me, I'm not taking any chances.


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Subject: RE: BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers
From: Amos
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 03:58 PM

Women get heart attacks from men through a process of induction; the only sure preventive is acquiring expertise in the use of the whip and the training chair.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 04:03 PM

I am safe, then, Amos, mastered that a long time ago!**bg**

My apologies, GG, with alcoholism among several of my male relatives, this study is a bit much. One wonders if they thought of the implications before releasing it. None of my family members so afflicted are actively drinking, but I can just hear some guy in a bar using it to justify his drinking. I note they say nothing about how many heavy drinkers die from drunk driving or how many they kill whilst doing so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 04:11 PM

Sure.......I can see that. I just read another article that said 40% of all traffic fatalities involved alcohol which means that 60% involed sobriety. Obviously you are safer when driving drunk.

I think both studies have equal validity.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers
From: Goose Gander
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 04:14 PM

All joking aside, it is a scientific study. I don't understand what you mean when you say it is "a bit much" . . . if anything, this study confirms what I've believed for years - moderate drinking is good for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers
From: gnu
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 04:24 PM

What? Hooey! Nay I say! My plan is to not have to live a long lingering near to death life decrepitly in my old age through the use of alcohol to numb the pain and hasten the inevitable. Foiled again? Drat!


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Subject: RE: BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 04:53 PM

Well . . . if you pickle something, it does tend to preserve it.

The thing that may skew the figures is the frequency with which the pickle staggers from the bar to the car and then runs into a lamp post about two blocks from home.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 05:01 PM

"Moderate" meaning one to two glasses of red wine per day. The tannins in red wine are supposed to be good for the heart. But you can get those tannins from red grape juice too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 05:05 PM

Liquor and Longevity

Barroom ditty, author unknown

The horse and mule live thirty years,
And nothing know of wines and beers.
The goat and sheep at twenty die,
And never taste of Scotch or rye.
The cow drinks water by the ton,
And at eighteen is mostly done.
The dog at fifteen cashes in,
Without the aid of rum or gin.
The cat in milk and water soaks,
And then in twelve short years it croaks.
The modest, sober, bone-dry hen
Lays eggs for nogs, then dies at ten.
All animals are strictly dry;
They sinless live and swiftly die.
But sinful, ginful, rum-soaked men
Survive for threescore years and ten.
And some of them, a very few,
Stay pickled till they're ninety-two.
So if you'd like to test your fate,
Let's drink and try for ninety-eight!


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Subject: RE: BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers
From: Paul Burke
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 05:12 PM

Bugger. I'll have to give up drinking if I want to die young.


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Subject: RE: BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers
From: Gurney
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 05:19 PM

Nah, Paul, just drive home at closing time!


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Subject: RE: BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 05:20 PM

Sods Law also decrees that red wine is good for your heart & hell for your liver. So then what?

I don't drink these days because I just went off it at age 70, 8 years ago: no moral or any such reason: I am not a teetotaller or any such ~ will drink a bit of champagne for politeness on appropriate occasions, e.g.. But feel bound to say that I have come to prefer the feeling of being always in control to being sometimes somewhat fuzzy-headed; and to prefer the company of the sober to that of the inebriate.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers
From: Joe_F
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 06:11 PM

There are more old drunkards than old doctors. -- Rabelais


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Subject: RE: BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 06:36 PM

I drink beer, wine, whiskey, rum, some liqueurs, occasional cider, VERY rarely gin, and VERY VERY rarely other things.....however, I can make a bottle of whiskey last a year and a six-pack of beer a month.
One think that helps is having good taste... I can't afford very much of the good quality stuff I prefer.. *smile*
One or two of anything is about all I'll imbibe on an evening when I do drink something. I have never been tempted to be anything but low-moderate, as I don't enjoy either hangovers or being embarrassed by stories of my behavior... (I think I have been legally over the limit maybe 3 times...and not for 35 years or so when I drank red wine from a wineskin on a hot Summer evening.)

Some day, I 'may' do as MtheGM says and just sort of stop... if the doctor said "stop" tomorrow, I'd be only slightly sad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 06:49 PM

Does Lite Beer qualify as "heavy drinking"???


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Subject: RE: BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 06:52 PM

shucks... it don't even qualify as 'beer'... *big grin*


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Subject: RE: BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers
From: gnu
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 06:53 PM

Lite Beer? I'd rather be fat than sober.


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Subject: RE: BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 03:09 AM

Lite Beer is like sex in a canoe ....


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Subject: RE: BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 04:38 AM

Or, as Ron Copper once said to me: like kissing your sister ~~ sort of the same but not as nice.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers
From: Wesley S
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 11:44 AM

I can't imagine that this study will change anything. Those people who want to drink heavily will continue to do so. Drunks can be masters at justification { and denial} . And I doubt that those who don't drink are going to start in an effort to live longer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers
From: greg stephens
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 12:15 PM

Possibly self-righteousness is a killer?


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Subject: RE: BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers
From: Allan C.
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 06:22 AM

If they would finally get around to legalizing pot there might not be so many heavy drinkers and many more of us would probably live longer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers
From: kendall
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:30 AM

My first wife drove me to drink. I never did thank her.


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Subject: RE: BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 10:14 AM

the participants were almost all men (katlaughing)    63 %, actually
One wonders if they thought of the implications before releasing it. (katlaughing)

Suppressing data (facts) is never a sensible way, even if some people may misunderstand or misrepresent what they read.

That abstainers and heavy drinkers die earlier than moderate drinkers is known since very long. That is no news at all. However, up to now, the routine AA explanation for that fact was that many abstainers are former heavy drinkers and that the reason for the early death is the former alcohol abuse and not the later abstaining. This explanation has now been dealt a blow by a much better controlled study than older studies that for instance had not controlled for the former alcohol intake of abstainers.

An experiment with humans randomly assinging participants to different groups that could solve the question beyond any doubt cannot be done for ethical reasons. So the researchers have to try to eliminate counfounding variables by statistical means.

What are confounding variables in this example? From the article:
...we found among these older adults that at baseline, abstainers were significantly more likely to have had prior drinking problems, to be obese, and to smoke cigarettes than moderate drinkers and significantly higher than moderate drinkers on health problems, depressive symptoms, and avoidance coping. Moreover, at baseline, abstainers were significantly lower than moderate drinkers on SES, physical activity, number of close friends, and quality of friend support and significantly less likely to be married than moderate drinkers.


So, what did they (find)?
Controlling for age and gender, all eleven additional covariates, and the gender–marital status and gender– avoidance coping interactions ... reduced the 20-year mortality risk for abstainers compared to moderate drinkers. After including all covariates, the relative mortality risk for abstainers compared to moderate drinkers dropped by close to one-third and approached that of heavy drinkers.

In other words, the at the first glance much higher death risk of abstainers compared to moderate drinker (means usually: 1-2 drinks a day, in this study: 2-3 drinks a day) shrinks if confounding factors are controlled for. Heavy drinkers do not significantly outlive non-drinkers, once that correction has been made. That's a misrepresentation of the result by GG.

So, what does it all mean? In the words of the article:
an important part of the survival effect for moderate drinking compared to abstention among older adults is explained by the effect of confounding factors associated with alcohol abstention....However, ... moderate alcohol consumption continued to show a significant, though attenuated, association with lower mortality risk.

And that is new, for the routine AA interpretation for the long know better survival rates of moderate drinkers (former heavy drinkers) cannot explain the remaining difference.

But something else could perhaps as the authors note: Although we controlled for a wide range of traditional and nontraditional confounding factors associated with abstention, there may be other important confounding factors that remained uncontrolled. You can only control for what you have thought of.

It is by far the best study on that field up to now (one could make here a remark to Catspaw, but he doesn't want to be taken serious) and adds to many other findings about moderate drinking.

Even driving is statistically a bit safer with a tiny bit of drinking than with no drinking at all (I bet this counts among the results katlaughing would love to suppress). A single small glass of wine (or half a pint of beer) is what I am talking about here and not the 2-3 drinks considered moderate drinking (as the intake by day) just before you enter your car.

And here I come to one of the advantages of abstaining in my eyes. For many people, completely abstaining (at all or before driving) is much easier that drinking at most one small glass (before driving) or only 1-3 drinks a day. In that respect, the AA are right and do a lot of good.

The article will be published in the November issue of Alcoholism: Clinical and Experimental Research. (I can access the article here but that access may not be available to the public)


Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers
From: Amergin
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 11:35 AM

there was a study recently that stated that women were the cause of men having heart attacks....and women have heart atacks because they don't their house work, like they're suppose to....


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Subject: RE: BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers
From: olddude
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 11:42 AM

Dang, that is my problem, I don't drink. I knew it had to be something


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Subject: RE: BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 11:50 AM

Thank you, Wolfgang... it is always good to see one of those 'news' reports put into perspective by someone who can interpret the study objectively.

(I am reminded of the (possibly apocryphal) bit of 'statistics' published many years ago that claimed an almost 100% correlation in the US, between the salaries of college professors and the sales of alcohol.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 01:03 PM

GG, why didn't your thread title reflect the moderation finding? I was commenting mostly on the premise for which you started the thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 05:36 PM

The thing about scientific studies is that so many folks seem to think that the conclusions are up for a vote.


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Subject: RE: BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 05:41 PM

That's the thing that makes human beings so special. They have the ability to 'decide' what they will believe about various evidence...scientific or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers
From: bobad
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 05:48 PM

BINGO!


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Subject: RE: BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers
From: Goose Gander
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 12:54 PM

My thread title reflects the article as it was published in Time magazine. I stated my own understanding of the study later down the thread, and I repeat, I believe moderate drinking is good for you.

From the study:

"However, even after adjusting for all covariates, abstainers and heavy drinkers continued to show
increased mortality risks of 51 and 45%, respectively, compared to moderate drinkers."

AA - that's a laugh, I've known plenty of members who simply switch from one addiction to another, usually nicotine or some other stimulant. I've sat in on meeting and I've seen the way members beat up on themselves. Sorry, I just don't buy it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers
From: Goose Gander
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 01:38 PM

Again, from the study:

"However, even after taking account of traditional and nontraditional covariates, moderate alcohol consumption continued to show a beneficial effect in predicting mortality risk."

All those chain-smoking AAers at the coffee shop . . . I wonder how many of them will die from lung cancer, heart disease, etc.?


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Subject: RE: BS: Heavy Drinkers Outlive Non-Drinkers
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 03:04 PM

"The sample of those who were studied included individuals between ages 55 and 65 who had had any kind of outpatient care in the previous three years. The 1,824 participants were followed for 20 years."

So how many heavy drinkers died before they got old enough to be included in the study? The diseases and other death-dealing agents (accidents, violence, suicide) associated with heavy alcohol use often lead to early deaths. The study doesn't address that issue at all, only the relative mortality rates of heavy drinkers, moderate drinkers, and non-drinkers who had already managed to live to be at least 55.

I've not yet reached the age where members of my own age group are dropping like flies due to natural causes. They still mostly do themselves in by driving into phone poles, committing suicide, getting murdered by angry boyfriends, etc. Alcohol is almost always a factor in their deaths.


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Mudcat time: 25 September 10:24 PM EDT

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