Tune Add: 2 Welsh pieces

Subject: Tune Add: 2 Welsh pieces
From: sian, west wales
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 05:49 AM

St David's final charge to his followers, it is said, was, "Gwnewch y pethau bychain" - 'do the small things'. That is, that small kindnesses and acts are important.

Anyhooo, someone has decided that today is Pethau Bychain day and wants all Welsh people to do something to get more Welsh (language) content up on the Internet (although there is, in actual fact, a fair bit already).

So this is my Peth Bach. I'm trying to get to grips with abc notation for work purposes and I've worked out - I think - a few Welsh songs and tunes. Let me try a couple out on you here.

The tune is Malltraeth, which is a village (with a very nice beach and view) in south east Anglesey. It's a very popular dance tune.

X: ST1
T: Malltraeth
C: Trad
N: Malltraeth, pentre yn ne orllewin Sir Fon
N: Malltraeth, a village in south west Anglesey
N: from "Musical and poetical relicks", Edward Jones
M: 3/4
L: 1/8
K: G
Q: 200
dc|B2GBAG|F2 DFEC|B,2D2GF|G4\
dc|B2g2f2|e2A2d2|^c3de^c|d4:||:\
d2|edefge|d2B2cd|e2EFGA|G2FEDC|\
B,2D2GF|E2c2B2|A3/2c1/2D2GF|G4:||:

The second is a song which I've just come across in a new book by Dr Meredydd Evans in which he gives an in-depth overview of the major Welsh folk song collectors. This one was collected by Thos. D. Llywelyn ('Llywelyn Alaw', 1828-79) and I hadn't heard it before, although I've heard variants:

X: ST5
T: Fy Ngariad (sic) Gweddus
C: Tradd
N: cofnodwyd gan Llywelyn Alaw – taken down by Llywelyn Alaw
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
K: C
Q: 170
A2|d2AcB2AG|F2A2z2d2|c2A2G2EF|D4z2A2|\
d2AcB2A2|G2B2z2d2|c2A2G2EF|D4z2AB|\
c2B2A2Bc|d2e2z2d2|c2A2GAB2|c4z2e2|\
d2AcB2AG|F2D2z2DF|A2BAG2E2|D6z2|

Words given:
Dydd da fo'i Ngariad gweddus madroddus medrus maith,
Mi ddaetho'i unwaith eto fel buoi lawer gwaith
I ofyn os dyw'n bosyb eich troi chwi'n wraig i fi.
Cewch rhan o'r byd a'i olyd os mentrwch, braf eich bri.

Spelling then was a bit more ... fluid ... that it is now; some words look odd today but are completely understandable. Roughly translated:

Good day to you my decorous, famed, capable, life-long Love,
I come once again, as I have come so often
To ask if it wouldn't be possible for you to be my wife.
You can have a piece of the world and all its riches if you take a chance, great your esteem.

Think he might be over-egging the bread there?

Well, the two of the work for me when I use concertina.net's Convert-a-Matic . Although it gives an error message (if anyone can tell me why, I'm open to learning!) the Midi clicky produces the correct tune.

Hope these are of interest.

sian

Subject: RE: Tune Add: 2 Welsh pieces
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 06:15 AM

The ABC problems:

X: should be followed just by a number.

The Q: line should be before the K: and it would be better to use a more explicit form - "Q:1/4=100", for example. Programs may not all interpret Q:200 in the same way.

Many programs will guess what you mean with these.

More spaces would make the ABC more readable.

(By sheer coincidence I've just rescued a Welsh lnguage tea towel from the bin in the charity shop I'm working in - my peth bach, I guess).

Subject: RE: Tune Add: 2 Welsh pieces
From: sian, west wales
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 10:00 AM

Thanks Jack. That's a big help. The guide I was using wasn't clear on these points; I did wonder. And spaces would certainly help me keeping track of where I am. Will do.

I had thought of putting the lyrics in as "N" lines. What do people usually do, if anything?

Was it a recipe towel or an alphabet towel or ... ? I think my mother must have the full set!

sian

Subject: RE: Tune Add: 2 Welsh pieces
From: treewind
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 11:53 AM

Lyrics go in W: lines - easiest to do upper case "W:" and you can put them all in a block under the tune, but if you use lower case "w:" you can put the words under the stave; however this requires a lot of careful notation with dashes, underscores etc. + trial and error to make the words fit the notes properly.

N: lines don't usually show in print from ABC and intended for any comments about the tune/song not covered by C: O: Z: etc.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Tune Add: 2 Welsh pieces
From: sian, west wales
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 12:27 PM

Thanks Anahata! I see on concertina.net that the N line things show up on the staff notation rendering. I take it from Jack's comments that there are different programmes for interpreting abc so maybe some do and some don't.

But I'm going to try that W trick! Do I understand that I put them after the abc notation rather than with all the other cap-letters?

sian

Subject: RE: Tune Add: 2 Welsh pieces
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 01:17 PM

Thanks, sian. My gang was a special interest in Welsh music, and I'll share them.

I guess Peth Bach means 'thing small'. And pethau is the plural of pech. Bychain must be a another form of bach. Is it usual to change the adjective like that, or is bychain archaic? St David did live a long time ago, after all.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: 2 Welsh pieces
From: sian, west wales
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 02:20 PM

Well, 'bychain' isn't exactly archaic; more literary. 'Bach' would be used in ordinary speech with singular masculine nouns and all plural nouns; 'fach' after feminine singular nouns. In more literary settings, 'bychain' would be used after plural nouns of any gender.

I hope the gang enjoys the pieces.

sian

Subject: RE: Tune Add: 2 Welsh pieces
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 04:00 PM

I have done some experimenting, and I will not be able to share the pieces until somebody adjusts Sian's abc files so that the Tune-O-tron accepts them without reservation and makes a pdf.

I know that the Tune-o-tron MIDI plays the pieces, but the MIDI's themselves, when downloaded, are in very strange times. The computer took every subtle variation literally, so the MIDI consists of tied notes of every description.

If somebody could fix the abc's above, I would appreciate it very much. The whole world will have access to the tunes, and the pech bach will become a pech mawr.

I hope that's Welsh for big thing.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: 2 Welsh pieces
From: sian, west wales
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 05:45 AM

I've just redone Malltraeth. Didn't realize the finer points of spaces between the letters but I'm learning. The ones above played fine for me, but this one produces the pdf as per my original from Edward Jones. (Although I've added the c# at the end of the A phrase; that's how we play it.)

X: 1
T: Malltraeth
C: Trad
N: Malltraeth, pentre yn ne orllewin Sir Fon
N: Malltraeth, a village in south west Anglesey
N: from "Musical and poetical relicks", Edward Jones
M: 3/4
L: 1/8
Q: 1/8=200
K: G
dc|B2 GBAG|F2 DFEC|B,2 D2 GF|G4\
dc|B2 g2 f2|e2 A2 d2|^c3 d e^c|d4 :||:\
d2|edefge|d2 B2 cd|e2 EFGA|G2 FEDC|\
B,2 D2 GF|E2 c2 B2|A3/2c1/2 D2 GF|G4:||:

May get around to doing the other later.

Peth mawr would be a big thing.

sian

Subject: RE: Tune Add: 2 Welsh pieces
From: sian, west wales
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 07:41 AM

And here's t'other, which works for me and the pdf looks like it should too.

X: 6
T: Fy Ngariad (sic) Gweddus
C: Tradd
N: cofnodwyd gan Llywelyn Alaw – taken down by Llywelyn Alaw
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
Q: 1/8=170
K: C
A2|d2 Ac B2 AG| F2 A2 z2 d2|c2 A2 G2 EF |D4 z2 A2|\
d2 Ac B2 A2|G2 B2 z2 d2|c2 A2 G2 EF|D4 z2 AB|\
c2 B2 A2 Bc| d2 e2 z2 d2|c2 A2 GA B2|c4 z2 e2|\
d2 Ac B2 AG|F2 D2 z2 DF|A2 BA G2 E2|D6 z2|


sian

Subject: RE: Tune Add: 2 Welsh pieces
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 12:15 PM

Thank you for doing that, Sian. It went well, and I have made regular MIDI's of the tunes. They are both very fine.

Someone may ask, "What's the point, when the MIDI's were available on the Tune-o-tron the first time?" The answer is that the original MIDI's, though they seemed to sound right, are unplayable when written out. They are a welter of quarter, eight, 16th and 32nd notes tied in bizarre places. (Some tiny element must have been missing from the first abc files.)

The tune Malltraeth, which is a delightful dance piece, goes down to the note B. This means it is too low for flutes and recorders, which only go down to C, and that on a good day. Given the new MIDI and a music program, I can change the key in a trice. I can also add harmony parts, note the chords, make it print big...

Sian, are you sure that the measure with the C# in it goes back to a C natural before moving on? That's what the abc does. Was this a triple-harper showing off?

If anybody indicates an interest, I will send the new and tidy MIDI's to Joe for posting here.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: 2 Welsh pieces
From: sian, west wales
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 01:36 PM

Oh - no, it should still be sharp. As far as I can see, there is a ^ the second time, unless we're talking about something else...? I've taken the piece from the earliest publication (Edward Jones) which doesn't sharpen the c's in that bar, but we play it # these days.

I can't see why there were 16th and 32nd notes at any time. They never have appeared when I've processed it ...

sian

Subject: RE: Tune Add: 2 Welsh pieces
From: Artful Codger
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 06:41 PM

Line continuation (\) should be used sparingly, and never to join more notes into a line than can comfortably fit on a single staff on the printed page (i.e. about 7 inches). Some programs choke on line continuations, and they are fraught with other problems. One of the biggest problems with ABC is that such features have been inconsistently implemented by various programs, rendering them useless or at least risky in the wider domain.

Repeats should always be bracketted at front and end, and (despite older usage) should not be placed anywhere but at the beginning or end of full bars. This doesn't accord with how repeats actually align in songs and in dance music, and necessitates the use of first and second repeats, but taking the more straightforward, economical approach will cause many programs to report errors or choke. Also note that ":||:" at the end of a tune is an error, since there is nothing to repeat on the right-hand side.

Bars should not be split across lines, regardless of how natural such a division may be logically. The pickup notes should be placed on the preceding line, within the bar to which they belong.

There is a notable exception: section markers (double bars) may be placed mid-bar. When this happens, the following pickup notes may be placed on the following line, as at the beginning of a tune. But any repeats associated with the section must still fall on full bar lines.

The last measure of a piece should be rest-padded to form a complete measure. This should be done even if, in practice, no rest occurs there (for instance, because the tune typically recycles to the beginning, with the last measure being completed by the initial pickup notes). It is understood that the rests serve as place-holders for the pickup notes except when the tune finishes.

Source information should be placed in S: directives; these are more likely to be printed than N: directives, and when both are printed, source information should precede the notes. Source and notes are usually labelled as such.

Finally, the tempo marking (Q directive) should be specified in terms of the primary beat duration. For 4/4 or 3/4, this would be 1/4=xx; for cut time (2/2 or C|), this would be 1/2. 6/8, though technically meaning six beats per measure, usually means either two or three primary beats per measure, with the beat being either the duration of a quarter note or a dotted quarter note, hence the tempo should be expressed as 1/4=xx or 3/8=xx (even if the tune switches between duple and triple groupings of eighths). When a measure doesn't evenly subdivide into constant primary beats (like 7/8 or 11/16), you're best off treating the entire measure as a single beat unit or specifying the most common primary beat size (like 1/4). If the tempo marking gets into the 200 range or beyond, you've likely chosen the wrong unit--just listen to a metronome clicking at this rate and you'll see why.

So, with these tips in mind, here's "Malltraeth" more properly (or portably) rendered into ABC:

  X: 1
  T: Malltraeth
  C: Welsh traditional
  S: from "Musical and poetical relicks", Edward Jones
  N: Malltraeth, pentre yn ne orllewin Sir Fon
  N: Malltraeth, a village in south west Anglesey
  M: 3/4
  L: 1/8
  Q: 1/4=100
  K: G
  dc |: B2 GBAG|F2 DFEC|B,2 D2 GF|G4 dc|
  B2 g2 f2|e2 A2 d2|^c3 d e^c |1 d4 dc :|2 d4 ||
  d2 |: edefge|d2 B2 cd|e2 EFGA|G2 FEDC|
  B,2 D2 GF|E2 c2 B2|A3/2c1/2 D2 GF |1 G4 d2 :|2 G4 z2 |]

For future reference, be careful when posting ABC tunes with embedded angle brackets. To ensure the HTML parser doesn't get confused and display your ABC improperly, you should translate these to "&gt;" (>) and "&lt;" (<)--and always preview, because when it comes to the entry box, what you see is not always what you get.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: 2 Welsh pieces
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 07:15 PM

Repeats should always be bracketted at front

No they shouldn't. Normal usage in folk music is to have no repeat at the start of a line, it saves clutter. BarFly gets this right, and abc2midi gets this horribly wrong. A construct like

A :|
B :|

should play as AABB (which is what BarFly does). abc2midi plays AABAB. There is NO musical idiom where that is desired behaviour.

and end, and (despite older usage) should not be placed anywhere but at the beginning or end of full bars. This doesn't accord with how repeats actually align in songs and in dance music, and necessitates the use of first and second repeats, but taking the more straightforward, economical approach will cause many programs to report errors or choke.

Then get those programs fixed. (I haven't used a program that fucked up for years - we don't need to preserve compatibility with ABC2WIN, for chrissake)).

If you are aligning words with a tune you MUST usually start with an upbeat and end with an incomplete bar. I do nearly all my ABC that way, it preserves the phrase structure of tunes.

Ditto for the placement of repeats. Almost always it will be more logical to place the repeat at the end of the phrase, not the end of the bar. Illogical structure makes for transcription mistakes.

Also note that ":||:" at the end of a tune is an error, since there is nothing to repeat on the right-hand side.

It's also a lexical error, since :: is the two-sided repeat sign in ABC.

Unfortunately there are old sources (like almost all 18th century tunebooks) where a final repeat is always written double-sided. I hit this one in my Aird transcriptions. My solution was to do it the standard ABC way but mark in the header how Aird had it.

Bars should not be split across lines, regardless of how natural such a division may be logically. The pickup notes should be placed on the preceding line, within the bar to which they belong.

Bollocks. It almost always makes more sense to do the exact opposite, and that's what I do systematically on all the thousands of tunes on my site. If you have some shite piece of software that doesn't understand what I have very good reasons for doing, throw it down the toilet and get something that works.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: 2 Welsh pieces
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 07:43 PM

Here is Sian's second example done with word underlay using the "w:" construct, and making essential use of lines ending with incomplete bars.

X:2
T:Fy Ngariad (sic) Gweddus
C:Tradd
N:cofnodwyd gan Llywelyn Alaw
N:taken down by Llywelyn Alaw
M:4/4
L:1/8
Q:1/4=85
K:C
A2|d2Ac B2AG|F2A2 z2
w:Dydd da fo'-i Ngar-i-ad gwe-ddus
d2|c2A2 G2EF|D4   z2
w:mad-ro-ddus med-rus* maith,
A2|d2Ac B2A2|G2B2 z2
w:Mi ddae-tho'-i un-waith e-to
d2|c2A2 G2EF|D4   z2
w:fel bu-oi la-wer* gwaith
AB|c2B2 A2Bc|d2e2 z2
w:I* o-fyn os dy-w'n bo-syb
d2|c2A2 GAB2|c4   z2
w: eich troi chwi'n wra-ig i fi.
e2|d2Ac B2AG|F2D2 z2
w:Cewch rhan o'r* byd a'-i o-lyd
DF|A2BA G2E2|D6   |]
w:os* men-trw-ch, braf eich bri.

I don't know that much about Welsh so there must be mistakes - hopefully Sian can see how to fix them. The ABC point is that the text underlay displays in exactly the same way in BarFly and in the converter at http://www.folkinfo.org/songs/abcconvert.php (just paste it in and hit the Submit button). If those two old systems (implemented using entirely different platforms) can display my ABC the way the standard says and the way I intended, there's no excuse for any more recent system to mess it up.

(Note, if you strip out the "w:" lines the ABC is aligned beat-for-beat - makes it a lot easier to see what's going on when checking your transcription).

Subject: RE: Tune Add: 2 Welsh pieces
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 08:02 PM

About that second tune: I've known a variant of it since my teens, i.e. the 1960s at the latest (will try to transcribe the way I remember it). But I've had almost no exposure to Welsh songs. I have a feeling I heard it from an American source, something broadcast on the radio. Can anybody guess what?

Subject: RE: Tune Add: 2 Welsh pieces
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 09:29 PM

"I can't see why there were 16th and 32nd notes at any time."

I don't know either, but when I downloaded the first MIDI for Malltraeth and Fy Ngariad into Noteworthy Composer, there they were. Perhaps it had something to do with the variations in programs that Jack mentioned.

Whatever happened, it's fixed now.

Now Sian, about that name 'Llewelyn Alaw.' I believe 'alaw' means tune or melody. Is Llewelyn Alaw a nickname such as I see in the Constable Evans books, such as Jones the Post or Jones the Meat? i.e, Llewelyn the Tune?

Do people still use such nicknames, or are they obsolete now?

Second question: why does it say Fy Ngariad (sic) Gweddus? And what does the title mean? I know that Cariad means lover, dear or darling, and that sometimes it changes to Ngariad. Why is that?

I love your expression 'over-egging the bread.'

Subject: RE: Tune Add: 2 Welsh pieces
From: Artful Codger
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 01:51 AM

Jack Campin wrote: Then get those programs fixed.

A laughable response, and an impractical suggestion, considering that ABC development has largely been capped. My attitude toward the setups other people work with--for good reasons of their own--is not so cavalier.

Perhaps I am conditioned by writing "standard" notation--that acceptable to the concert world (and most software)--not just folk notation, and I'm certainly conditioned by using other music-writing programs that make ABC utilities seem primitive in both visual and aural rendering. They don't allow some of the "folk" conventions that some popular ABC programs will handle benignly. It's nice to know that a more relaxed, intuitive notation will work for most ABC programs, and will largely service here.

As for "normal" usage, I've found forward repeats to be seldom omitted anywhere but at the very beginning of a piece. In subsequent sections, forward repeats are almost always supplied--in modern notation, at least. In any case, it does no harm to include forward repeats as a courtesy to the performer; the "clutter" is minimal. By the way, in older music, sometimes the forward repeat is indicated by vertical dots without a leading bar line. It's often overlooked by transcribers.

JC: If you are aligning words with a tune you MUST usually start with an upbeat and end with an incomplete bar.

Lyrics alignment has nothing to do with it. You can position the syllables wherever you put the corresponding notes.

If you can make sections and repeats break with the natural phrasing, so much the better; with other systems, or for portability, you may not be able to. As for ending a piece with an incomplete bar, I think even Barfly reports this as an error, though it does the right thing. (I'm not arguing that incomplete ending bars are wrong--particularly not with circular tunes--, but both standard convention and software at large favor full bars.)

Within sections, I strongly recommend breaking lines only at bar lines, even if your programs allow mid-bar line breaks and your sources break in that manner. Besides being non-standard, mid-bar line breaks tend to throw off a performer's count, hindering more than helping. Anyway, the mapping of phrases to staff lines is arbitrary and frequently sub-optimal, particularly using default formatting settings. Better to adjust for full bars with an uncramped spacing.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: 2 Welsh pieces
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 04:07 AM

Breaking lines to match the text (which usually means mid-bar) has been a common way of writing hymn tunes for 500 years. It's an extremely common practice in both practical folk music and ethnomusicology. You do it that way precisely because matching the lines to the phrasing helps the reader or performer. It also makes a big difference to readability if you expect people to use the ABC directly as a notation in its own right (the modes tutorial on my site is designed to allow that as far as possible).

abcm2ps gets it right, and it's the most commonly used program for getting staff notation out of ABC. It's also free, runs on most hardware/OS platforms, and is the most sophisticated in the range of constructs it handles. Places like folkinfo.org and concertina.net use it, so if you process ABC at a site like that, you don't need any additional restrictions on what you write.

You aren't saying what software you have that has a problem with this. At a guess, either something you've written yourself and never released to the outside world, or else ABC2WIN (last updated in 2000 and outdated crap even then).

The bugs in abc2midi are a tougher problem, since while the author is still maintaining it, he is totally unresponsive to suggestions. What I tend to do is add the unnecessary |: markers when submitting source to be processed and then remove them again before making the source public.


As for ending a piece with an incomplete bar, I think even Barfly reports this as an error

It doesn't (I can't think of many occasions when you'd want that, anyway). There are still bugs in the way it combines incomplete bars with multi-part music, though.


Let's see what ABC you've produced. Do you have any at public sites?

Subject: RE: Tune Add: 2 Welsh pieces
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 05:18 AM

Here is the variant of that tune I had in my head. To me it sounds like something Joan Baez might have sung.

X:3
T:mystery 1960s tune
M:4/4
L:1/8
Q:1/4=92
K:GDor
D|G3A/B/ A2G2|F2G2 z3 A|B3c/d/ c2F2|G4 z3:|
d|g2zd   dcBc|c d3 z3 d|g2zd   dcBA|G3F D2z
D|G3A/B/ A2G2|F2G2 z3 A|B3c/d/ c2F2|G4 z3|]

The original should have had

K:DDor

as it's in the dorian mode on D, not C major.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: 2 Welsh pieces
From: sian, west wales
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 07:08 AM

Sorry not to have returned to this sooner, but I've been busy elsewhere. I'm going to have to take my time to read through all of the above in depth, but a few answers and reflections in the meantime ...

Leeneia, 'Llewelyn Alaw' would be his nom-de-plume. He was quite well known in his time and a major collector/notator of tunes, hence the 'alaw' which does means tune or melody. However, IIRC 'alaw' was a relatively modern word, at least for that concept, and earlier texts would have used the word 'cainc'. And, yes, people still use those names. I'm widely known as Sian Toronto, to the point that I get mail addressed that way. Neither was it my choice; it was assigned. But that's a long(ish) story. At one time, in my local, we had regulars: Dai Tractor, Dai Collier, Dai Dentist, Dai Scaffold and Dai Felin Wen. Just a sampling. No idea what their actual surnames are/were.

Re "Fy Ngariad (sic) Gweddus", the correct mutation should be Fy Nghariad but orthography, grammar, etc seemed to be less 'concrete' back then. The verses have a number of such 'variations from current norm'. 'Buoi' would today be 'bum i', 'bosyb' would be 'bosib', 'olyd' would be '(g)olud'. I just accept them as of their time.

Jack, I did see somewhere there was a way to note it was doric but I was about as stretched as I could manage at that point; when the C major worked, I just parked it there! I prefer yours; thanks for showing how.

I'm not too concerned about getting the words under the music as the Welsh tradition, for many tunes, is to have a freedom in matching the two according to your particular taste - which I think used to be common elsewhere too. The minute they're coupled in print, people think they're a set piece. Still, it's good to know how to do it. Your rendition is fine for the most part, although 'dyw', 'wraig' and '-trwch' (as in men-trwch) are one syllable. Can't remember if english language would allow for breaks in notation if not grammatically correct ... I have seen some breaks in old hymnals - often when the print technology has been poor - that make the sentences a real challenge to understand.

I really will read through all the above in depth. It's a pain that the converters and guides and all are just different enough to make it difficult for beginners like me. I wish someone would come up with a programme for sol-ffa as there is so much other stuff we could access ...

sian

Subject: RE: Tune Add: 2 Welsh pieces
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 11:12 AM

Thannks for the language notes, sian.

Recently I had a class where the teacher was from Toronto. I learned from her that it's pronounced Tronto. I hadn't known that.

But maybe she was joking...

Subject: RE: Tune Add: 2 Welsh pieces
From: sian, west wales
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 04:26 PM

Na - she wasn't, except in the Niagara Penninsula (my home turf) we'd say Tranna. Similarly, Ahdawa (Ottawa) and Peetuhbruh (Peterborough).

Language, eh?

sian

Subject: RE: Tune Add: 2 Welsh pieces
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 07:23 PM

I realize that Ahdawa is how I pronounce it myself. And I've never even been there.